firstgoddessfirst

Hi All,

Here's the question:

Does anyone think that there is a problem with "addiction" to these
games? Is there any room for "self-discipline" as such?

That being said - for some background - I'm a resolute unschooler - I
don't believe in keeping your kids out of an environment only to
reproduce it at home - I've read several posts today concerning kids
who "want" to go to school - I have a 14yo who never 'said' she wanted
to go to school but shows discontent & resentment - I think partly
from watching things like "High School Musical" & all of the teen
shows centered on school like "That's So Raven" & "Zoe 101" PLUS I've
had 'well-meaning' friends and family (even DH) expressing concern
about their long-term future (like how will they get work) & 'being
socialized' (to which I reply I'm not interested in my children become
socialists or programmed to be worker-bees then I tell them my
children are very sociable :) But I think in private conversations
with my daughter they try to sway her with all she's 'missing' -
Although I do believe she would do well in school, as such, as she has
a competitive spirit - I did read a lot of responses about having a
rich & varied social life - I'm working on that - right now she's
getting it via church - lol - I do realize that some people are
uncomfortable with no 'real' schooling even though these very same
people will complain or state how they have to be very involved in
schooling & set some teachers straight & the bad habits their kids
pick up & one hires tutors for their 'dyslexic' only child whom they
put through expensive programs & kept in summer camps all this past
summer (at least 3 camps) - maybe even jealous that I don't feel the
need to kowtow to society's pressure or are so insecure in themselves
&/or their children that they leave teaching up to the 'experts' -
like I tell them & my children - if public schooling is so great -
where are all the inventors/geniuses & why are children learning less
now than ever - why do kids from Asia & India come here not even
knowing English & within 2 years or so, become the valedictorian of
the graduating class - why do kids graduate h.s. illiterate - why is
there such a variance in achievement - top of the class to barely
passing? so I call it the 'public fool system.'

I had one friend tell me that because my husband & I were so 'smart'
that she knew all of our children would be geniuses even if we never
taught them a lesson - apparently, pressure got to her later, as she
enrolled her children in online school (Calvert, I believe) & STRONGLY
suggested I do the same - I even let her test my oldest - which came
out favorably - for never having one formal lesson she scored very
well - but this same friend had her children doing hours of lessons
every day since like 6yo & still has little or no faith in her
childrens' intelligence, her oldest teenage boy, 16 or 17, she's
already 'written off' as being 'just a mechanic,' because he's not the
'intellectual' she is.

I believe in my childrens' native intelligence - but I sometimes need
the support that I'm okay & they're okay - it's hard, when you're
ingrained with 'you have to do something productive' to think that
playing RPGs non-stop all day & night until the wee hours of the
morning is "normal" - granted - I'm a night owl - so is the family
entire - early for us is 9am - hardly anyone wakes up before then
(8:30 at the earliest) my 14yo can easily sleep until 11 or 12 noon

I 'let' my children go to church, although I don't go at all & I
believe this is just another conditioning (like the "Four Agreements"
by Don Miguel Ruiz, which I highly recommend) & I raise my kids to be
free-thinkers - unprogrammed - allowed to let their brains think &
learn the way that's natural to them - a Baptist church group has a
"bus kids" program that picks up all these kids & my 2 daughters were
first lured there by a pizza party - then liked the social aspect -
got "saved" - now my daughters want me to go to elevate them from "bus
kids" status - lol - I was raised Jehovah's Witness - so this goes
totally against my own indoctrination/training/conditioning haha

I've read a bit about the video games & respect & it's altered my
thinking somewhat - although I was coming to this conclusion -
However, I have seen grown men (25yo+) 'neglect' their families to
play video games - although some do sit with their children while
playing - my concern is - why does it seem some people don't 'grow out
of it?' My dad was a Radio Shack aficionado so we had the very first
videos games - like Pong & Tandy tape recorder games & I did my share
of fighting over game time (5 of us) but mostly decided it was sort of
a waste of time & read books or did crafts instead.

How about I have 5 kids & the stress & arguing & crying (esp my 5yo
DS) they do over playing games & not being able to play (the older
kids dominating the computers) - even when I allow them 'free reign'
the older ones will not usually 'take turns?' - all of my children
have pretty much unlimited access to the internet - but I, also, get
frustrated when chores go undone & calls for them go unheeded due to
the extreme wrapping up in the game (Maple Story, currently - but
there was Runescape & Neopets & Gaia & Tektek) They are, also, pretty
wrapped up in youtube & myspace (14yo) BTW - now 3 (14yo DD, 11yo DS
8yo DD) of my kids have their own computer set up - only my 5yo DS &
2yo DD don't - but my 5yo wants to play all the time too

Is there no concern about them playing & interacting together & all of
us as a family? - I know some will say - play with them - I've done
that before on Neopets - I used to play as one of my kids' accounts -
usually whoever was logged in at the time - play games & win them
points & sometimes trophies - I have so much to do that it's hard for
me to justify that - my kids will all play Maple Story at the same
time - so I'm guessing they're interacting that way - so, I suppose
I'm struggling between the constant, untiring gaming (is this more
pronounced because I'm sometimes adamant against playing so freakin'
much!), the lack of rest, the radiation from the computer & monitor,
the physical inactivity, the apparent obsession, etc, & wanting them
to do more 'organic' things like play outside, create, draw, play
music, read? My son basically taught himself to read via Runescape &
my 8yo is like someone else's DD was/is on this list who goes around
saying she can't read yet (my 2 oldest taught themselves to read at
8yo - she'll be 9 in October)- so I'm showing her that she actually
CAN read & just has to relax & let it happen - my 5yo can put in his
username, password AND pin for Maple Story - so I don't think RPG are
ALL bad - just all-consuming.

Aimee

Thanx for reading - lol

P.S. I addressed the background & other info to sorta pre-answer
questions that I saw as likely to crop up as in other threads.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 4, 2008, at 5:58 AM, firstgoddessfirst wrote:

> However, I have seen grown men (25yo+) 'neglect' their families to
> play video games - although some do sit with their children while
> playing - my concern is - why does it seem some people don't 'grow out
> of it?'


Were they unschooled?

Were they able to play as long and as much as they wanted as kids?

Do they have stressful jobs they need to wind down from?

Do they use it as a way to avoid something in the home? (The more
they're nagged to engage, the more they're likely to pull away!)

Why can't video gaming be a legitimate interest like golf or building
miniature railroads or reading?


> My dad was a Radio Shack aficionado so we had the very first
> videos games - like Pong & Tandy tape recorder games & I did my share
> of fighting over game time (5 of us) but mostly decided it was sort of
> a waste of time & read books or did crafts instead.


While it's not safe to make statements about any particular girl,
gaming is more commonly a guy thing. Despite the anti-sexism people's
insistence we're all the same, guys and girls are different.

> How about I have 5 kids & the stress & arguing & crying (esp my 5yo
> DS) they do over playing games & not being able to play (the older
> kids dominating the computers) - even when I allow them 'free reign'
> the older ones will not usually 'take turns?' - all of my children
> have pretty much unlimited access to the internet
>

We do need to help them figure out how to negotiate and find ways to
get what they want without stepping on others' toes. I don't think
kids want to hurt each other, but if someone is in the way of what
they want it takes some heavy duty social skills to figure out how to
get it in ways that are respectful. I think it's perfectly natural
for kids to use power when they can. Which means they need help
figuring out better ways.

> but I, also, get
> frustrated when chores go undone
>

Lots of new ways to see chores at:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com (on the right hand side)

and

http://sandradodd.com/chores

> & calls for them go unheeded due to
> the extreme wrapping up in the game (Maple Story, currently - but
> there was Runescape & Neopets & Gaia & Tektek)
>

If they were as engaged in Harry Potter's last book to the point
where they didn't hear you, would you feel as upset?

Isn't it great that they can find something that engaging besides a
book series that comes along once or twice in a childhood?

It's certainly *inconvenient* but a lot of that is caused by
expectations of how they should be have. If you turn it around and
expect that they're so engaged that they can't hear, that they won't
want to put something down immediately, your frustration will go down.

> so, I suppose
> I'm struggling between the constant, untiring gaming (is this more
> pronounced because I'm sometimes adamant against playing so freakin'
> much!)
>

Yes, definitely. Try recasting it as something else. What if they
were as engaged in something you valued?

But why should your judgement of what should be valued be important
in how they choose to spend their time? Do you want your husband to
do that to you? (To get the proper feel, you need to imagine him not
valuing something you do value, like fluffy mystery novels or
something.)

> the lack of rest,
>

Sometimes things are way more engaging than the day can hold.

My daughter's favorite activities take up a lot of time: drawing,
playing guitar, watching music videos, writing, talking with friends.
She really hates getting up late because she finds it hard to fit it
all into the day. But she also finds it hard to stop talking to her
friends late at night because that's when they're available. She's
gone to bed at 3 or 4 and gets upset if she's not up by 8.

We did find one good thing about school though! Her friends can't
stay up past 11:30 now ;-) It would be more useful for her in the
long run to have gotten to a point where she could say "I need to go
to bed," but it's all part of the process of learning about who they
are and their limitations and how far they can push things.

All that just is. But when they *need* to do something else (like
spend time with a boyfriend or girlfriend ;-) they will find ways to
do that.

If they're getting frustrated, that's your cue to help them
brainstorm ways to get what they're trying to get in safe and
respectful ways. If they're happy, then you've stepped into the role
of fun police.

> the radiation from the computer & monitor,
>

That's old old information. (I've reposted something about this down
below)

> the physical inactivity,
>

It helps unschooling flourish to draw kids away rather than pulling
them. The more you pull, the more likely they are to cling. (Goes for
adults too!)

Work with the kids on a schedule that has a variety of things that
get some or all of them out of the house for something better than
video games.

Get together an ultimate frisbee team and advertise it on local
homeschooling groups. LARP (live action role playing) should appeal
to gamers :-) Rock climbing (a fair number of new sports facilities
are installing "rock" walls for climbing if you're not near real ones.)

> the apparent obsession, etc,
>

Obsession is a yucky word for engagement. When someone doesn't
appreciate an activity as much as another it's deemed an obsession.

> & wanting them
> to do more 'organic' things like play outside, create, draw, play
> music, read?
>
Do *you* want your husband hovering over you -- and obsessing? --
wanting you to do something other than what engages you? Wouldn't if
feel rather creepy?


==========
TV and radiation:

This is from the FDA:

> Is the TV Radiation a Hazard?
>
> Scientists have not identified specific health effects resulting
> from exposure to extremely low doses of low-level radiation over
> prolonged periods of time. However, the current assumption is that
> there is no threshold of exposure below which x-radiation may not
> adversely effect human health. It is advisable, therefore, that x-
> radiation from TV sets, as well as other commonly used electronic
> products, be kept as low as reasonably achievable. It was for this
> purpose that Congress enacted the Radiation Control for Health and
> Safety Act of 1968 (currently called Federal Food, Drug, and
> Cosmetic Act – Subchapter C – Electronic Product Radiation Control).
>
> It should be emphasized that most TV sets have not been found to
> give off any measurable level of radiation, and there is no
> evidence that radiation from TV sets has resulted in human injury.
>
> Setting a Radiation Safety Standard
>
> The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has the responsibility for
> carrying out an electronic product radiation control program
> mandated by the Electronic Product Radiation Control provisions of
> the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act. Through it's Center for Devices and
> Radiological Health, FDA sets and enforces standards of performance
> for electronic products to assure that radiation emissions do not
> pose a hazard to public health.
>
> A Federal standard limiting x-ray emissions from TV receivers to
> 0.5 milliroentgen per hour (mR/hr) was issued on December 25, 1969.
> The standard is applicable to all TV sets manufactured after
> January 15, 1970. The overall effect of the standard is to require
> that TV receivers must not emit x-radiation above the 0.5 mR/hr
> level when tested under adverse operating conditions. Test
> conditions do not represent normal use and ensure that when used
> under normal conditions, TV sets do not pose a radiation hazard.
>
> Assuring That TV Sets Meet the Radiation Standard
>
> Manufacturers of television receivers and computer monitors contain
> CRTs must certify that their products meets performance standard
> under Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part
> 1020.10. All TV manufacturers must submit written radiation safety
> reports to FDA outlining how they assure that each set coming off
> the assembly line complies with the Federal x-ray radiation limit.
> These reports contain a description of the manufacturer’s quality
> control and testing program and the television radiation safety
> design. Manufacturers also must maintain records of test data and
> prepare an annual report to FDA summarizing these records. The FDA
> has the authority to ask for radiation safety data including
> results of x-ray leakage from selected sets to determine compliance
> with the standard.
>
> Television receivers imported into the United States, which do not
> meet the standard are not allowed into the country and are
> destroyed if not exported in 90 days. Importers, however, may
> petition FDA for permission to correct the violations.
>
> How Safe Are TV Sets Today?
>
> X-radiation emissions from properly operated TV sets and computer
> monitors containing CRTs are well controlled and do not present a
> public health hazard. The FDA standard, and today’s technology,
> such as electronic hold-down safety circuits and regulated power
> supplies, have effectively eliminated the risk of x-radiation from
> these products. FDA has not found TVs that violate the standard
> under normal (home) use conditions.
>
> It is important to note also that flat panel TVs incorporating
> Liquid Crystal Displays (LCD) or Plasma displays are not capable of
> emitting x-radiation. As such these products and are not subject to
> the FDA standard and do not pose a public health hazard.
Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-Does anyone think that there is a problem with "addiction" to
these games?-=-

Sure, LOTS of people do! They're people who want to limit and
control other people.

I like to empower and free other people, so I don't think of it as
"addiction." There are people who read books incessantly and
habitually. The other day I saw somene's online profile bio and it
said "I'm a reader." I used to read much more than I do now. It
was escapism and sometimes snobbery. My life changed and now I would
much rather interact with my kids or my husband or my friends than
to read.


-=- Is there any room for "self-discipline" as such?-=-

Yes. You could discipline yourself to keep your face soft and sweet
when dealing with your kid about things they understand better than
you do. You could spend more time reading about the advantages and
benefits of allowing them freedom and leeway, and about the things to
be learned from game playing.

I don't like the phrase "self-discipline," and I don't like "self-
regulation." They're both about saying no, about having rules,
instead of about finding yes and making real choices in each moment.

http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation

http://sandradodd.com/myths

http://sandradodd.com/choices



Those are my responses to the question.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> Does anyone think that there is a problem with "addiction" to these
> games? Is there any room for "self-discipline" as such?

I suppose some people could be addicted to video games just like
others are addicted to gambling or shopping. Those things are not
inherently addictive, but some people might be prone to addictive
behavior. Restricting one type of activity for fear it can be
addictive is senseless because a person prone to addictive behavior
will simply find another addiction.

> I believe in my childrens' native intelligence - but I sometimes
> need the support that I'm okay & they're okay - it's hard, when
> you're ingrained with 'you have to do something productive' to
> think that playing RPGs non-stop all day & night until the wee
> hours of the morning is "normal" ...

Repeat that thought but put different activities in the place of
RPGs. What if your child read books, worked on puzzles, watch
television, walked outside, worked in the garden, etc. many hours of
the day and night? Would you feel equally concerned about how they
spend their time? Or do you put more value on some activities than
others?

> - granted - I'm a night owl - so is the family entire - early
> for us is 9am - hardly anyone wakes up before then (8:30 at the
> earliest) my 14yo can easily sleep until 11 or 12 noon

You're admitting all of you like to stay up late. What do you do
with your time with the kid(s) play video games? Again, are you
placing more value on some activities over others? What would you
like to see your children doing instead of playing the video games?

> However, I have seen grown men (25yo+) 'neglect' their families to
> play video games...

That is not the fault of the video games themselves. That is
something going on inside the person's mind, and if video games
aren't around, he would likely find another activity. I've heard of
men spending hours on the golf course, boating on the lake, working
in the yard, etc. Would you consider those things to be addictive as
well?

> why does it seem some people don't 'grow out of it?'

So video games are only for children? They are a pleasant way to
spend time. I myself spend hours playing an online game, but I'm not
addicted and/or neglecting my family. I don't feel there is anything
else adult I should be doing.

I can also talk about my husband who spends hours working on his
online Diplomacy games. Both his gaming interests and mine are
actually quite brain challenging. They aren't mindless, worthless
activities. We enjoy the problem solving as well as the social
interaction of playing the games with other people.

> I did my share of fighting over game time (5 of us) but mostly
> decided it was sort of a waste of time & read books or did crafts
> instead.

Ah. There's the answer. You place no value on the activity because
you don't care for the activity personally. Therefore, how can
anyone else place a high value on these activities?

> How about I have 5 kids & the stress & arguing & crying (esp my 5yo
> DS) they do over playing games & not being able to play (the older
> kids dominating the computers) - even when I allow them 'free reign'
> the older ones will not usually 'take turns?' -

There isn't enough to go around then. It's like offering a plate of
4 cookies to a dozen children and expecting them to share. What if
you only had one bicycle for them to ride?

My children don't fight over computer time because everyone has their
own computer. No one feels shorted or left out. The computers are
just another thing to do along with all the other stuff they have to
do. They know it's there when they want it so they don't feel a need
to gorge themselves on it in fear that it will be taken away soon.

> I, also, get frustrated when chores go undone & calls for them go
> unheeded due to the extreme wrapping up in the game

No one in my family has chores, not even me. We all do what we can
to help when we're able to do so. I would get very upset if my
husband told me to stop playing my game in the middle of something
big happening to tell me to do laundry. He feels the same way when
he's involved in something. And again, the activity doesn't matter.
It can be gaming, gardening, reading, or whatever. All activities
have value to the person doing them voluntarily, whether you feel the
same way or not.

> so, I suppose I'm struggling between the constant, untiring gaming
> (is this more pronounced because I'm sometimes adamant against
> playing so freakin' much!), the lack of rest, the radiation from
> the computer & monitor, the physical inactivity, the apparent
> obsession, etc, & wanting them to do more 'organic' things like
> play outside, create, draw, play music, read?

You also said you were too busy to justify your time spent playing
the video games. I'm guessing you personally don't like the games
and want to see your children doing things you yourself would like to
do. BTW, there is no physical activity in reading, drawing or even
playing music (like piano or violin). If they spent hours doing
those things and sitting in one place, would you feel better?

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-- I have a 14yo who never 'said' she wanted
to go to school but shows discontent & resentment - I think partly
from watching things like "High School Musical"...-=-

I'm glad you gave us so much background if you want help.

You might not be glad you gave us so much background if you don't
really want help. :-)

You said you're a "resolute" unschooler and that you call school "the
'public fool system.'" So I'm guessing that your children didn't
choose to be home, but that you've made the decision for them. One
of the worst things about school is that children don't choose to be
there, the decision is made for them.



I'm guessing if your daughter shows discontent and resentment, that
it could be because of the negativity at home, the disapproval, and
the chores.

If a family defines school as the devil (in any way), then it will be
easy for them to be complacent and figure that anything they do at
home is better than the evil school. That's one problem. The
other is that if for ANY reason the kids end up in school, they'll
start off scared to death, and if they discover they kinda like it,
their faith in the parents' opinions goes down. If they don't trust
your opinion about one thing, they'll be less likely to accept your
opinion about another thing. So, for example, if you tell them the
radiation from a computer screen will harm them, and they see you
sitting in front of a computer, being "old" (to them) and alive, and
they know even older people who work with computers at work and
aren't dead, will they believe your advice about sexually transmitted
diseases or pregnancy? Clarity, honesty and humility go a long,
long way toward creating a relationship of trust between a parent and
child.



-=-I had one friend tell me that because my husband & I were so
'smart that she knew all of our children would be geniuses even if we
never taught them a lesson -=-

There's no denying a genetic component, but there are different kinds
of smart.

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

Last night I watched "Smart People," and it reminded me of many
people around me who were certified "smart" by school and tests and
paychecks, but who are quite lacking in everyday awareness, and
compassion, and humility. If one gets a 99th percentile on a test,
it's easy to feel there's nothing left to learn. The more evidence
people have that they're intellectually superior, the less likely
they are, sometimes, to be open to the idea that they might be
blithely screwing up their own lives and others'.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Normal changes.

-=-I believe in my childrens' native intelligence - but I sometimes need
the support that I'm okay & they're okay - it's hard, when you're
ingrained with 'you have to do something productive' to think that
playing RPGs non-stop all day & night until the wee hours of the
morning is "normal"-=-

My unschooled son is 22 and is making more now than his dad made his
first year as an engineer with a college degree. His hours are 2:00
to 11:00. It's like a hospital shift. People work around the clock
where he works, as they do in hospitals, and some other industries
and businesses. It's been "normal" for a long long time for some
people to be up late and others to be up early. He works for
Blizzard Entertainment, which creates and operates online RPG games.
He probably wouldn't have this job had we not encouraged his interest
in gaming from the time he was little (or he might have it, but not
be so good at it and so matter-of-fact about it).

People on this list can help you relax about these things if you want!



Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Here are some ideas for helping kids share the computer.
http://sandradodd.com/sharing

My sister said (with vitriol) one day years ago that she would NEVER
buy a video game system, because when her kids visited where one was,
they would fight over it.

I just calmly asked her if she'd rather buy them something that
wasn't worth fighting over.

If your kids are jostling for a turn, it must be REALLY good. Could
you get another system or computer?

Someone suggested taking the kids out to do frisbee golf or
something. I'd like to amend the suggestion to taking SOME of the
kids out, so those at home (or one at home) could play in peace and
quiet, and later take that kid or those kids out to do something
while the others can have more peace.

Kids can feel crowded, and the more negativity there is in the air,
the less able they will be to find peaceful solutions.

-=-However, I have seen grown men (25yo+) 'neglect' their families to
play video games - although some do sit with their children while
playing - my concern is - why does it seem some people don't 'grow out
of it?' -=-

What other things are you thinking people should "grow out of"?
You're classifying video games as a kid thing.

-=-How about I have 5 kids & the stress & arguing & crying (esp my
5yo DS) they do over playing games & not being able to play (the
olderkids dominating the computers) - even when I allow them 'free
reign' the older ones will not usually 'take turns?' -=-

If "free rein" isn't the norm, then a horse will likely take off to
places he's never been able to see or go. If he's been able to
explore and sniff and taste and find his own shade, "free rein" won't
be so extreme.



There are ideas at that link above, though.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I know some will say - play with them - I've done
that before on Neopets - I used to play as one of my kids' accounts -
usually whoever was logged in at the time - play games & win them
points & sometimes trophies - I have so much to do that it's hard for
me to justify that - -=-

Playing on one of the kids' accounts isn't the same as playing with
them.



-=-my kids will all play Maple Story at the same time - so I'm
guessing they're interacting that way -

You're guessing they're interacting? Don't you know?

-=- so, I suppose I'm struggling between the constant, untiring
gaming...-=-

Stop struggling. Relax into it. Find ways to appreciate it. Your
disapproval makes you unhappy, and them unhappy. Your struggle
creates struggle.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My son basically taught himself to read via Runescape...-=-

A very slight shift of terminology will help you. If you change
"taught himself to read" to "learned to read," it will help you see
more learning all around you.

http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

-=- &my 8yo is like someone else's DD was/is on this list who goes
around saying she can't read yet (my 2 oldest taught themselves to
read at 8yo - she'll be 9 in October)- so I'm showing her that she
actually CAN read & just has to relax & let it happen -=-

Telling her she can read when she feels she can't isn't as respectful
and supportive as saying "You will be reading before long; don't
worry." If you say you CAN read, you're telling her she's wrong
about what she believes (and if she can't read, she knows she's
seeing words that don't look like words to her--just letters), and if
you say she has to relax, you're blaming her for not reading. You
don't even have to change your location or position to make this
change, just a little attitude change. Just relax and let it happen.
<g>



- my 5yo can put in his username, password AND pin for Maple Story -
so I don't think RPG are ALL bad - just all-consuming.-=-

"Consuming"? They ate your children whole?

If the greatest value you can see is that he can log in on his own,
maybe you should watch them play more and see what it is they're
loving and learning.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Sep 4, 2008, at 7:07 AM, carnationsgalore wrote:

>>
>> why does it seem some people don't 'grow out of it?'
>
> So video games are only for children?


My mom thought I'd "grow out of" horses <g> I attended a riding
clinic a couple of years ago where one of the instructors celebrated a
birthday -- her 80th.


<<even when I allow them 'free reign'>>

Rein, not reign. I find the phrase interesting, because people using
it mean that, if you allow a horse to "have the reins," it will take
control and run away; that, if you want to maintain control, you have
to hang on tight. This isn't true; lengthening the reins is a reward,
allowing the horse to stretch and relax after working. It's such an
important part of exercising a horse correctly that it's incorporated
into dressage tests as the "free walk," giving the horse a brief
respite partway through the otherwise collected ("tight" rein) work.

Nancy

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 4, 2008, at 7:07 AM, carnationsgalore wrote:

>> I did my share of fighting over game time (5 of us) but mostly
>> decided it was sort of a waste of time & read books or did crafts
>> instead.


So - it is hard for you to comprehend the value of videogames, I
suppose. My suggestion to you is that you immerse yourself in learning
about the benefits of video games, for a while. This is something your
kids love - you owe it to them to give it the benefit of the doubt and
educate yourself to avoid acting on baseless prejudice.

We've had years and years of crafty stuff going on in our house - I
mean intense craftiness!

I honestly cannot say that I see all that craftiness as having been
intrinsically more valuable in my children's lives than video game
playing.

I have one kid who did not engage in the crafts much - didn't enjoy
it, mostly got frustrated by it. Not for her. She played Neopets very
intensely for years - she was one of the very first people on Neopets.
She also plays the SIMS like crazy - still does that. Not doing
crafts has not held back her intellectual development. She's 20 now,
and a full-time college student, planning on getting a PhD.

My oldest daughter was/is extremely crafty. (Please go and look at her
"Beautiful Useables" site at <royaboya.etsy.com>.)

She doesn't play video games almost at all and it is hard for her to
really feel within herself that video game playing isn't time wasting.
She doesn't really "get" her boyfriend's passion for video games and
how much he loves to immerse himself in them, particularly when he
gets a new game. She's had the experience of growing up with her
sisters who do play video games, and she's people-smart and she
reminds herself - different strokes for different folks (although
probably not in those 1960's words <G>). So she supports his interest
with good cheer and happily spends her time crocheting or painting,
etc., while he's playing his game. I was at their house a couple of
days ago and she asked him to play a game of LOOT with us. We
chatted while he got to a good stopping point in his game and then he
came and helped us figure out the rules, we played a game of LOOT, and
then he went back to his new videogame (he'd just gotten it that
morning). He did it cheerfully and she was cheerful and it was GREAT
to see. I could easily imagine an alternative - her whining at him,
"My MOTHER is here and you're so rude you're not even getting off that
stupid computer." Him: "Why does she think she can just stop by and
interrupt my life?" Her: What life? You're just playing videogames.
Him: I suppose you think I ought to be knitting, like you? Her: Well,
at least I have something to show for my time.

And on and on.....

Ugly scenario - but probably very common type of situation, especially
between parents and kids. Not conducive to happy and harmonious family
life.

-pam

Jenny C

> Someone suggested taking the kids out to do frisbee golf or
> something. I'd like to amend the suggestion to taking SOME of the
> kids out, so those at home (or one at home) could play in peace and
> quiet, and later take that kid or those kids out to do something
> while the others can have more peace.
>
> Kids can feel crowded, and the more negativity there is in the air,
> the less able they will be to find peaceful solutions.


I'd like to ditto that. What I see in my own house is that my younger
kid, 7, really wants to do whatever my older kid, 14, is doing. It has
less to do with the activity at hand and more to do with seeing that
something might be interesting and wanting to explore it. While, I do
understand that my younger kid wants and likes to do computer stuff and
video game stuff, the draw isn't nearly the same as it is for my older
kid. The older's need for that is far far greater.

At the age of 7, she is really more willing to try a variety of things,
so taking her to the park is a great option, while leaving my older one
at home to do her thing without interuption. I feel a sense of duty to
protect each of them from each other. I want the time they DO spend
together to be fun.

Sort of related but not, the other day both my girls were playing Gaia
and Margaux, 7, was following her sister's avatar around everywhere.
Chamille was being gracious about it, even though she was clearly trying
to chat with people. Margaux never does anything halfway, and
eventually she was trying to join the conversations too. She started
doing the repetetive words or numbers or letters thing. Some of
Chamille's friends were getting mad about it, even though Chamille had
told them all that Margaux was a little kid and couldn't read or spell
stuff.

Finally Chamille gets all annoyed and says very loudly "Margaux stop!".
I was listening in to all of this happening, just kind of seeing how it
would play out. I looked at Chamille and said, "Hey she's taking a page
out of your book.", since Chamille used to do that ALL the time on chat
forums, just to irritate certain people. She started laughing and
laughing, so hard she was rolling on the floor. Then we talked to
Margaux about netiquette and how it's fun to an extent, but it does get
old and it can irritate people, people that Chamille would like to keep
as friends. Then I told Margaux that Chamille would help her know and
navigate netiquette a little, and that if Chamille told her enough was
enough, that she really should listen.

The point of the story is that both my kids have unlimited access to
play what they want, when they want. Chamille is gracious about her
sister being online with her and Margaux is willing to cease being "the
annoying little sister" because she trusts her older sister and wants to
be in her good graces. One thing that really really helped get them to
this point is for me to make sure that they aren't interfering with each
other in negative ways. One way to do that is to take one of them and
do something individual while the other can have peace to do what they
need to do.

Sandra Dodd

-=-we played a game of LOOT, and
then he went back to his new videogame (he'd just gotten it that
morning). He did it cheerfully and she was cheerful and it was GREAT
to see. I could easily imagine an alternative - her whining at
him, ...-=-



Holly's boyfriend is in charge of a large World of Warcraft guild
that's existed for a long time. I understand he's very good at it.
Kirby used to be in that guild years back (now he needs to sleep and
work during their regular raiding hours).

The boyfriend told me recently that Holly is the first person in his
life who didn't shame him or pressure him about playing WoW.

Sandra

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firstgoddessfirst

LOL - OKAY I GET IT! HAHA

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's input! I intend to answer or
clarify, if needed - I totally appreciate the time you took to read
and answer - you have certainly given me much to think about - it
seems like a soapbox subject lol - like homebirthing & not vaxing (2
of my soapboxes lol)

Re-reading my letter I guess I 'see' how I sound... I'm really NOT so
controlling in 'real life.' In fact, I've been 'accused' of not
controlling my kids - I have really been fighting for my kids' freedom
for a long time - to let them learn on their own - I encourage them to
trust themselves (I guess everyone will jump on the apparent hypocrisy
about gaming :) - everyone is so 'concerned' about their futures -
ergo the 'public school'/curriculum stuff - although it's the big dead
elephant in the living room - just no-one trust their own choices &
heaven forbid you listen to a child!

I have really gotten very little to no support for my choices - but
I'm sure all of you have dealt with that - I've been called crazy,
lazy, a bad mother, a terrible housekeeper, that I have no focus, that
I change my mind all the time, that I'm not protecting my children
from the 'evil threat' of the internet, that I shouldn't let my kids
eat whenever they want or let them cook on my 'dangerous' gas stove if
they want (my sisters have described my kids as 'foraging'), that I
don't have a life, etc all by family members incl husband, who tells
me I'm not normal. One of my sisters told a friend who commented on
how 'great' a mother I was that 'really she's not.' I aspire to be a
great mother, however.

My goal is to provide a safe, creative haven for my children but I've
really had to fight to get this far - which isn't far enough - I feel
one of my main goals is to help my children be independent and, I'm
kinda glad that my children sometimes are rebellious as I admire &
wish to foster an independent spirit - I'm not trying to be their
everything because that really screws them up in life - my DH's mom
was like the uber housekeeper AND cleaned up after my DH past teenagehood.

I've been told constantly that I need to provide 'structure' in their
lives, including 'regular' meal times, so forth.

I guess I wish to create the most natural environment possible & I
feel that gaming & TV (which both consist of 'programming') are
designed to do a certain amount of programming - the brain reacts to
the pulses from the TV & it has a hypnotizing effect (so I've read) to
the point of making the mind more malleable to suggestion & I'm sure
most have heard of subliminal advertising/suggestion - I've known of
people to get rid of TV & they report more peace in their homes -
However, I also know that the children in those families become
immediately engrossed once they see TV at anyone else's home, too - so
I'm hard-pressed to believe that children really make those choices
if/when they're being hypnotized - (Although, my research on hypnotism
tells me that being hypnotized doesn't make you do things you weren't
so inclined to do, anyway.) Now, I realize I could be wrong & I tend
to play devil's advocate & look at both sides/both points of view,
because I believe each side has valid points.

I didn't take the time to read the linx on video gaming - but when I
did research earlier I couldn't find anything definitive. So, I look
forward to reading something substantive.

Thanx again,
Aimee

Sandra Dodd

-=-I guess I wish to create the most natural environment possible & I
feel that gaming & TV (which both consist of 'programming')-=-

Don't let a word get between you and your direct perceptions. Try to
think without filters and labels when you can.

Plays and concerts have programs too. Do you fear being programmed
by them? <g>



-=-the brain reacts to the pulses from the TV & it has a hypnotizing
effect (so I've read)-=-

Don't believe everything you read. Look at your children. Feel
your own feelings.



-=-Now, I realize I could be wrong & I tend to play devil's advocate
& look at both sides/both points of view, because I believe each side
has valid points.-=-

If you believe "both sides" (what, of EVERything?) are equally valid,
though, on what basis will you make decisions? Once you decide what
your goal is, you'll have a way to evaluate and interpret what you
read in light of how close it gets you to your goal.



-=-I didn't take the time to read the linx on video gaming - but when
I did research earlier I couldn't find anything definitive. So, I
look forward to reading something substantive.-=-

"Definitive" and "substantive" might not be as good right now as
persuasive and comforting. Do you want to know what will help your
children learn? Most of what's written is anti-video gaming designed
by professional educators who resent anything more interesting than
school.

http://sandradodd.com/videogames

Sandra




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Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 4, 2008, at 6:46 PM, firstgoddessfirst wrote:

> I have really gotten very little to no support for my choices - but
> I'm sure all of you have dealt with that - I've been called crazy,
> lazy, a bad mother, a terrible housekeeper, that I have no focus, that
> I change my mind all the time, that I'm not protecting my children
> from the 'evil threat' of the internet, that I shouldn't let my kids
> eat whenever they want or let them cook on my 'dangerous' gas stove if
> they want (my sisters have described my kids as 'foraging'), that I
> don't have a life, etc all by family members incl husband, who tells
> me I'm not normal.

I, quite honestly, have NEVER been on the receiving end of any
negative comments by friends or family.

That's not because I hide what we're doing. That's not because there
aren't people who probably think we're more than a little nuts.

One time another woman described to me how her husband critiqued her
cooking pretty much every night. She put a full dinner on the table at
6 pm every night. He walked in the door from work, on schedule, sat
down to eat. At the end of dinner he'd say things like, "I'd rather
not have that again, it wasn't that good." Sometimes he'd say, "Next
time, use less cheese." "Needs more salt." Stuff like that. Then he'd
get up, go to their bedroom room and watch tv while she cleaned up and
took care of the children.

We were sitting at my dining room table while she told me this. I was
dumbfounded. She asked me what I did when my husband criticized my
cooking. I sputtered - "Umm, well, gee, he wouldn't DARE because, if
he did that to me, I'd stop cooking." Which isn't to say I never cook
anything that turns out bad. I am kind of an experimental cook and
sometimes my experiments are pretty awful. When that happens, we all
eat a bit, and I'll usually say, "Okay, okay - I won't be repeating
this one. Anybody want me to stick some frozen pizza in the oven?" We
laugh. It is all okay. Truth is, my husband almost always thanks me
and says something nice about the food whenever I cook for him - so do
the kids, usually. I can tell how much they like something by whether
they say, "We should have this again." And, I thank my husband when he
cooks, too!

So - how is that related to nobody criticizing my parenting choices? I
am not open to it. I talk very matter-of-factly about our different
parenting styles and choices when I'm with one of my sisters, who is
very conventional. She's a really good mom in the conventional sense -
loves her kids, shows it, supports them. I don't ever argue with her -
I show total respect for her choices and make it clear that I'm
absolutely not interested in critiquing her parenting. But, with a
twinkle in my eyes, I respond to her mention of chore charts with,
"Well, you know how I am - no chore charts in our house." I sort of
let the other person know that I know that they think we're kind of
bizarre and that I'm okay with them thinking that. It really and truly
does not bother me at all.

I think that's the key to why we never get into any kind of debate -
I'm not trying to convince them that unschooling is a good idea. I
don't care what they think. I don't want to argue, so if something
sounds like it could be interpreted as a criticism, I choose to
understand it as just a comment made without malice and I respond with
something lighthearted or maybe even a bit of pointed humor.

But, I'm guessing, people also know that if they were openly and
rudely critical, I'd be able to defend myself quite strongly, so they
avoid it by keeping their negative thoughts to themselves, which is
fine with me. My sister and I love each other and each other's kids.
We both take a sort of slightly-amused-at-the-differences perspective.
And we're both happy that all of our kids have grown up to be very
cool young adults.

-pam

Schuyler

-----snip------
Here's the question:

Does anyone think that there is a problem with "addiction" to these
games?
-------------

I don't. I don't think there is a problem with "addiction" to these games. We had 3 WoW accounts 2 weeks ago, I decided to let go of mine as I didn't play very much but kept Simon's and Linnaea's account going. I probably enjoy playing more than Simon does, but he has a friend for whom WoW is the bees knees. When he comes over it is what he most wants to do. So, with that in mind, I figured I could help Simon get his characters up to higher levels so that he would enjoy playing with his friend more. None of us are addicted. Linnaea plays the most. But she didn't for a while. She asked me to help her get her main character up a few levels and since she got a riding pet she's enjoyed playing a lot more.

The on-line Meriam Webster dictionary defines addiction as: compulsive
need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or
alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological
symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

By arguing that video games are addictive you are saying that they produce a complusion. In a household without limits and with 6 game systems no one here has a compulsion to play them. I enjoy some, Simon enjoys some, David enjoys some, Linnaea enjoys some, but none of us are out of control when it comes to video games.

The second point that you have to be arguing is that they are known to be harmful. I have no such evidence. They can produce excitement and imaginative play and conversations and intense focus when in the middle of a serious problem. I think video games are so incredibly intellectually stimulating that I can completely understand the frustration of not solving the puzzle. It is much like a really good debate or an argument or having new ideas that challange all of your old standbys.

-------snip-----------
Is there any room for "self-discipline" as such?
------------------

I don't know what that means. Really. Is it a lonely dominatrix?

Self-discipline must come from yourself, right, and discipline seems to suggest that you would be out of control if you weren't disciplined. I would let go of the word self-discipline. Personal choice is a much nicer way to look at it. And there is always room for personal choice.

-----snip-----------
- I've read several posts today concerning kids
who "want" to go to school - I have a 14yo who never 'said' she wanted
to go to school but shows discontent & resentment - I think partly
from watching things like "High School Musical" & all of the teen
shows centered on school like "That's So Raven" & "Zoe 101"
----------

I don't know Zoe 101, maybe it hasn't made it to the UK yet, but That's So Raven I know quite well. It isn't school focused at all. And, actually, while High School Musical takes place in a school it is largely about social interactions. It's very similar to Grease, a show that is so not about school, even if it is set in a school. If there is discontent coming from those sorts of shows I imagine that they are being fueled by a life that is yearning for social relationships, boyfriends. I loved the show Sooner or Later with Rex Smith. I even watched Solid Gold to see more of Rex Smith. It didn't make me like school more, it didn't make me want to take guitar lessons or pretend that I was older than I was, it just made me want Rex Smith. Sigh...


------snip----
PLUS I've
had 'well-meaning' friends and family (even DH) expressing concern
about their long-term future (like how will they get work) & 'being
socialized' (to which I reply I'm not interested in my children become
socialists or programmed to be worker-bees then I tell them my
children are very sociable :)
---------------

That's kind of rude, isn't it? Particularly to your husband. They are legitimate concerns, and concerns that parents have whether their children are in school or not. Dismissing them in such a huge sweeping way isn't going to help them to understand why you are choosing this route. It is more likely to get them talking to your daughter in private conversations. Not that you need to pander to them, but if they are truly concerned, and, particularly, if your husband, the father of these children, is concerned, it is absolutely worth taking the time to talk to them.

------snip-----------

I'm a resolute unschooler
-----------------

Unschooling is about trusting that learning happens outside of the structure of school. Yes, it is about not schooling, but it is more than that. It is about seeing learning everywhere. It is about recognizing the learning that occurs in a conversation about which word for peeing you prefer when at the gas station (I like urinate or slash) and the learning that occurs while watching the That's So Raven episode where she meets the other students with psychic power and discovers that being with "her own kind" wasn't the be all end all. Letting go of school is the first step, and it's a doozy, but the next steps are about learning how wide you have to spread your arms to get at all the learning that is possible while paying attention to the learning that is going on in the lives in your family. It is incredible to watch the constance of it. Even when it looks like nothing is going on.... It's like growth spurts, sleeping more, clumsiness, maybe, eating
more, more down time and suddenly a huge bit of information synthesized. It isn't about being anti-school, it is about being pro-learning in all it's guises.

----------snip--------
- lol - I do realize that some people are
uncomfortable with no 'real' schooling even though these very same
people will complain or state how they have to be very involved in
schooling & set some teachers straight & the bad habits their kids
pick up & one hires tutors for their 'dyslexic' only child whom they
put through expensive programs & kept in summer camps all this past
summer (at least 3 camps) - maybe even jealous that I don't feel the
need to kowtow to society's pressure or are so insecure in themselves
&/or their children that they leave teaching up to the 'experts' -
like I tell them & my children - if public schooling is so great -
where are all the inventors/geniuses & why are children learning less
now than ever - why do kids from Asia & India come here not even
knowing English & within 2 years or so, become the valedictorian of
the graduating class - why do kids graduate h.s. illiterate - why is
there such a variance in achievement - top of the class to barely
passing? so I call it the 'public fool system.'
---------------------

That's a lot of vitrol. I don't think children are learning less now than ever. In the UK school-children are testing at higher and higher levels. I kowtow to much of society's pressures, tending only to balk the schooling thing, and actually that isn't one of society's pressures. Educating at home is a perfectly valid choice in the society I live in. I've informed David, when he was interested in applying for a job in Groningen that The Netherlands isn't home-ed friendly. He contacted a couple of people who knew more than I did about home-education in The Netherlands and decided that it was a deal breaker, so he didn't apply. I do think that not using a school structure is outside of the norm. But, everywhere that we've lived while home-educating has given me the right to educate my children at home. In the UK there is even precedent in the courts for unschooling, or autonomously educating as it is called here.

There are lots of inventors. Lots and lots of inventors. I can't even begin. Video games and the leaps and bounds those have made, have you seen a movie from Pixar? The amazing technological advancements in animation and in programming. Look at special effects... Heart valves. Flexible solar panels. Facebook. David is on a list for Mazda Bongo owners. Mazda Bongos don't have very good temperature gauges. When we were in Australia he noticed an alarm for cars as they reached nearly over-heating and mentioned it on the list. One of the other guys on the list got in touch with an Australian company and got them to design an alarm for the Mazda Bongo. A new invention. Or at least a new modification of an already existing device.I noticed in a Scientific American an article on a kinetic power source from walking being used to power mobile devices: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=powering-cell-phone-battery. Do a google search for the TED talks. Look at
the recent Nobel Prize winners. I've got Oliver Smithies (who reminds me of Ed Wynn) talking in the background while I write.

What you are writing isn't true. There are inventors, there are geniuses, there are non-Asian valedictorians. And yes there is a huge range of ability within schools. There are failures and there are successes within a system that is defining itself on grades. And that is a huge problem with schools and with those who leave schools. The variance has more to do with the fact that schools are working to fit all children into a small box of understanding how learning happens and what smart means. I watch a show called QI quite regularly. It's a game show hosted by Stephen Fry that is about Quite Interesting (QI) facts and which examines the "facts" that everyone knows are true, but that aren't actually true. The other night the question was what was invented in Cambridge in 1792. The answer was examinations: http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/commentandanalysis/3612018.Scrap_exams_and_get_on_with_teaching/ is an article that mentions that. The author of that
article states that examinations have been around in China for at least 4000 years. So, QI got it wrong. Assessment is an important tool when you are trying to order individuals. It doesn't align itself with unschooling. Nor is it meaningful when all individuals aren't heading for the same place. In 1792 Cambridge I imagine there were fairly few students. I find the number 150 freshmen in 1800. So not a lot of students being assessed for the jobs of research at universities. And probably being an upperclass twit, or an educated member of the royal family. In 2008 the number of people being assessed as able to fill academic niches is too great for the number of academic niches available.

------snip--------

How about I have 5 kids & the stress & arguing & crying (esp my 5yo
DS) they do over playing games & not being able to play (the older
kids dominating the computers) - even when I allow them 'free reign'
the older ones will not usually 'take turns?' - all of my children
have pretty much unlimited access to the internet - but I, also, get
frustrated when chores go undone & calls for them go unheeded due to
the extreme wrapping up in the game (Maple Story, currently - but
there was Runescape & Neopets & Gaia & Tektek) They are, also, pretty
wrapped up in youtube & myspace (14yo) BTW - now 3 (14yo DD, 11yo DS
8yo DD) of my kids have their own computer set up - only my 5yo DS &
2yo DD don't - but my 5yo wants to play all the time too
-------------------

When someone wants something someone else is using in our house I tend to work to engage the person who is waiting. Finding other engagement is easy, there are lots of things to do in or out of the house. Depending on the weather and the waiter there are lots of ways to become engaged. If things are getting stressful or into arguing I try to be as present as possible. I sit and help and listen and offer options and listen and wait and hold and be. My presence makes a big difference to the outcome of their rising tension. The hardest thing is for the waiter to walk away from the wait. At least in my experience. But my life is such that I can sit and be and wait and help as needed, as wanted. I also try and be aware of other things that my be leading up to this eruption of tension. Hunger, thirst, or tiredness and I try and make sure that those issues are taken care of often. Maslow's hierarchy of needs
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs) flashes through my head when I am trying to help.

---------snip-----------
Is there no concern about them playing & interacting together & all of
us as a family?

-----------------------
I almost never see my brother. The last time was 3 years ago. I haven't talked to him in a year maybe. There isn't any meanness or avoidance, really, in it. But there is also no connection. I know he reads my blog and I think of him often and e-mail him occassionally. We played and interacted as children and we fought and he's 5 years older than I am and we've gone down very different paths. My children are much closer than Sam and I were. But I have no expectation that they will get along at any given moment. The other day Linnaea was spitting at Simon, sort of playfully, and he said "You know, when I grow up I may not talk to you ever. I'm gonna get caller id." which made me laugh. But he is right. Their relationship, their family time is about now. And if their individual childhoods are good, if their individual selves are happy and sated and peaceful much of the time they will be more generous and more kind to each other. And maybe that will extend
beyond their time within my household.

--------snip----------
- I know some will say - play with them
---------------------

Absolutely, play with them, watch with them, dance the dances they find on youtube with them. Without that what are you doing? Playing with them is key. Really key.

------------snip------------
I have so much to do that it's hard for
me to justify that
-------------------------

Justify what? Playing with your children? Enagaging with them where they are so that you can be fired up about what they are doing and learning and so that you can find new engaging things for them? That's really important stuff. There should be no need to justify that.

--------snip-------------
so, I suppose
I'm struggling between the constant, untiring gaming (is this more
pronounced because I'm sometimes adamant against playing so freakin'
much!), the lack of rest, the radiation from the computer & monitor,
the physical inactivity, the apparent obsession, etc, & wanting them
to do more 'organic' things like play outside, create, draw, play
music, read?
--------------------------------

Jeez, what a lot of fear, and when you lay it out like that it must be really hard to see any value in their "untiring gaming". You mentioned youtube, that's a lot of music to be playing, there is a lot of creation in games, and drawing, Art Rage is fantastic for drawing. Between Simon and Linnaea, Simon is less likely to play outside, but when he does choose to, because it is a choice, he goes wholeheartedly. Forcing him to do something means that the something is unpleasant. Even if I think it is absolutely pleasant. Because it is his choice he will come up with things to do outside on his own. Things like going fishing or going to the beach to jump down the dunes. Linnaea plays outside a lot. She loves to talk on the phone while walking around the house. She likes to hike out across the fields with the cats following her to look at the horses down the way. They are different in what they enjoy.

Anyhow, Linnaea really wants to play on WoW, so I'm going to give her the computer.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>
> Is there any room for "self-discipline" as such?
> ------------------
>
> I don't know what that means. Really. Is it a lonely dominatrix?


I totally cracked up at this.


Schuyler always a goldmine of info and encouragement. Thanks so much for
your post. :) It's chockful of nuggets.

In Google you can mark favorite stuff with a star to make it easier to find
later. So it has that now and I suppose I could even go through and re-make
a copy to forward myself with bold fonts where I want it so's I can find
some of the info I want to follow up on and I may do that and print it out
or something.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The author of that
article states that examinations have been around in China for at
least 4000 years. So, QI got it wrong.-=-

I knew about the Chinese exams for a couple of reasons, but the most
fun reason is the existence of this:






30. Fabric "cheat sheet". China, n.d. Ink on silk, (40 x 43 cm.) C.
V. Starr East Asian Library

The Chinese examination system, stretching though two thousand years
of Chinese history, theoretically created a system of meritocracy, in
which any man of whatever background could join the governing class
by means of his learning. By late Imperial times, successful
candidates were appointed only to districts other than their own, to
avoid conflicts of interest and other seeds of local corruption. But
the examination system itself became increasingly bureaucratic and
exacting, leading to a condition, according to Benjamin Elman, in
which "cheating became a cottage industry." Since candidates and
their possessions were physically searched before they could enter
the examination hall, in which they were locked for the three days of
the examination, it is hard to imagine how successful any of the
attempts at cheating actually were. This handkerchief is covered with
hand-brushed tiny characters representing some of the texts a
candidate was required to know.

Gift of Anne S. Goodrich, 1986



The image, in case it won't go through, is here:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresources/exhibitions/treasures/
images/200/232_001.jpg



*MAYBE,* if those things were important to know, they could have
printed up thousands of those handkerchiefs and required government
officials to have them with them all the time. But... that's now
how "knowledge" works in school.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Oh, fantastic. 3 day examination, man....



-------------




30. Fabric "cheat sheet". China, n.d. Ink on silk, (40 x 43 cm.) C.
V. Starr East Asian Library

The Chinese examination system, stretching though two thousand years
of Chinese history, theoretically created a system of meritocracy, in
which any man of whatever background could join the governing class
by means of his learning. By late Imperial times, successful
candidates were appointed only to districts other than their own, to
avoid conflicts of interest and other seeds of local corruption. But
the examination system itself became increasingly bureaucratic and
exacting, leading to a condition, according to Benjamin Elman, in
which "cheating became a cottage industry." Since candidates and
their possessions were physically searched before they could enter
the examination hall, in which they were locked for the three days of
the examination, it is hard to imagine how successful any of the
attempts at cheating actually were. This handkerchief is covered with
hand-brushed tiny characters representing some of the texts a
candidate was required to know.

Gift of Anne S. Goodrich, 1986



The image, in case it won't go through, is here:

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresources/exhibitions/treasures/
images/200/232_001.jpg



*MAYBE,* if those things were important to know, they could have
printed up thousands of those handkerchiefs and required government
officials to have them with them all the time. But... that's now
how "knowledge" works in school.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My children are much closer...[b]ut I have no expectation that
they will get along at any given moment. The other day Linnaea was
spitting at Simon, sort of playfully, and he said "You know, when I
grow up I may not talk to you ever. I'm gonna get caller id." which
made me laugh. But he is right. Their relationship, their family time
is about now. And if their individual childhoods are good, if their
individual selves are happy and sated and peaceful much of the time
they will be more generous and more kind to each other. And maybe
that will extend
beyond their time within my household. -=-

When Holly was seven or eight, she said "Can I hit Marty?" and I said
"When you're eighteen." So for a long time there was commentary and
reference to that. She would say "I can't wait until my 18th
birthday" when Marty made her mad. Usually she was joking. But it
was a way to express her frustration with him. And sometimes he
would do something he knew was irritating and say "I'm not coming to
your 18th birthday party."



I figure when she turns 18, she will punch Marty on the arm and he'll
take it well and laugh and say something funny.



For years Holly would say Kirby was mean and she hated Kirby, and
Marty was her favorite brother. But the last year Kirby was home,
she started really liking him. She was in Rhode Island visiting her
friend Quinn when Kirby got the job offer in Austin and, over the
course of a couple of days, decided to take it. When she found out
he was moving out she cried.

She's been to visit him twice in the past year--once Keith and she
and I drove down there, and for my birthday in July what I asked for
for my gift was two airfares. One for Kirby to visit here, and one
for Holly to go to Austin with him at the end of his visit to be
there for a few days.

It would be very easy for a 22 year old not to want his 16 year old
sister there at his birthday, but Kirby was happy for her to go home
with him and visit. They like each other. I think it helped that I
didn't try to "make them" like each other. I tried to give them
privacy and space and personal attention and understanding. Of
course I'd get frustrated and tired of bickering sometimes, but
because the goals of peace and harmony and self-expression were
always prominent, I didn't belittle their feelings or deny them or
try to get them to be false. I'd separate them and calm them and
speak in terms of finding ways to let them be autonomous and
separate, while still encouraging them to interact when they were
happier, later.

There was no "kiss and make up" requirement at all, ever. There was
"Maybe you'll feel better about it later." They did.

I always try not to make it worse.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-LOL. Is it really supposed to be that TINY? I mean I don't know
Chinese
anyway but. :)-=-



I couldn't find a bigger image. I've seen a bigger one, but I don't
know where. I guess it was handkerchief sized, but still the print
needed to be small enough to just look like a design in the weave,
and not like the answers to the test. <g>



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Ahh.. I get it now. :)

~Katherine




On 9/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-LOL. Is it really supposed to be that TINY? I mean I don't know
> Chinese
> anyway but. :)-=-
>
> I couldn't find a bigger image. I've seen a bigger one, but I don't
> know where. I guess it was handkerchief sized, but still the print
> needed to be small enough to just look like a design in the weave,
> and not like the answers to the test. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Back in the day, I had 20/15 eyesight. Now I'm getting more and more
...presbyoptic... I guess we could call it. I'd never be able to swing a
cheatsheet that small now I don't think. I would need some veerry special
glasses to read it, even at handkerchief size. That's a LOT of type.

~Katherine




On 9/5/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> Ahh.. I get it now. :)
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
> On 9/5/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-LOL. Is it really supposed to be that TINY? I mean I don't know
>> Chinese
>> anyway but. :)-=-
>>
>> I couldn't find a bigger image. I've seen a bigger one, but I don't
>> know where. I guess it was handkerchief sized, but still the print
>> needed to be small enough to just look like a design in the weave,
>> and not like the answers to the test. <g>
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

The random quote generator at
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
has hit 100 with this:

quote[100]="<i>It isn't about being anti-school, it is about being
pro-learning in all its guises. </i>—Schuyler Waynforth"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny C

>
> I always try not to make it worse.


Yesterday, the mother of one of my daughter's friends called to cancel
our Saturday get-together. Her reason was because her daughter was
being extremely disrespectful to her and so her answer was to punish her
daughter by canceling with us and sending her daughter to her dad's
house. In the background of the phone conversation I could hear her
daughter defending her position loudly, I assume, for my benefit.

It was a little reminder of why I stopped spending a lot of time with
this particular friend. It was a little reminder of why I do what I do
and why I live the way I live.

Chamille and I were talking about the whole thing, and her comment was
that she was glad that her friend still stands up for herself. She is
very very succinct in what she says, she's been doing it since she was
about 3, which will say alot about her relationship with her mother. By
the time she was 4, she could read and write and would leave her mother
notes on the bathroom mirror.

I can get mad at my daughter, sometimes she does things that really
upset me. The difference is that I can let go of my ego and look at it
from her perspective. I can walk away and think about it and come back
to her with humility and understanding and we can discuss things and
move forward. I even told her almost those exact same words above, that
I try not to make things worse. I don't want to be the one stumbling
block for my daughter. The worst thing I could do would be to be the
one that makes the situation worse, who can't get past my own issues to
treat my daughter like a human being.

It would be really easy to damage our relationship, but I work to keep
it good. I have never ever had an argument or disagreement with my
daughter that would lead me to threaten punishment and abandonment! It
would tear me apart to feel that towards my daughter for even a few
hours!

Margaret

They have also been around in Korea for some time (not sure how long),
although perhaps it is because of Chinese influence.

Watching Korean dramas I ran across a tv show that was a modern
version of a folk tale. It led me to a Korean movie about the same
folk take that was made in 2000 that I DO recommend and it is
available on Netflix (title: Chunhyang). It is set far in the past
(not sure when, but it is a folk tale) and they begin the movie with
someone singing the story in a really cool traditional way. Neat
singing and a drum. At any rate - the male lead is studying for an
exam to become a government official at some point in the story.

the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunhyangga


What Pansori sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ0YO7HOMWg (this is the beginning of
the movieChunhyang. The singing starts about 30 seconds in)
Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ3APm0Fd9M

It also reminded me of a Japanese drama called "Tiger and Dragon" that
features a Japanese form of storytelling called Rakugo. It's a very
silly and funny show (member of the Japanese mob ends up learning
Rakugo from a Rakugo master who owes money) and it I really enjoyed
the traditional Rakugo stories that begin each episode.

Margaret


On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 5:34 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-The author of that
>
> article states that examinations have been around in China for at
> least 4000 years. So, QI got it wrong.-=-
>
> I knew about the Chinese exams for a couple of reasons, but the most
> fun reason is the existence of this:
>
> 
>
> 30. Fabric "cheat sheet". China, n.d. Ink on silk, (40 x 43 cm.) C.
> V. Starr East Asian Library
>
> The Chinese examination system, stretching though two thousand years
> of Chinese history, theoretically created a system of meritocracy, in
> which any man of whatever background could join the governing class
> by means of his learning. By late Imperial times, successful
> candidates were appointed only to districts other than their own, to
> avoid conflicts of interest and other seeds of local corruption. But
> the examination system itself became increasingly bureaucratic and
> exacting, leading to a condition, according to Benjamin Elman, in
> which "cheating became a cottage industry." Since candidates and
> their possessions were physically searched before they could enter
> the examination hall, in which they were locked for the three days of
> the examination, it is hard to imagine how successful any of the
> attempts at cheating actually were. This handkerchief is covered with
> hand-brushed tiny characters representing some of the texts a
> candidate was required to know.
>
> Gift of Anne S. Goodrich, 1986
>
> The image, in case it won't go through, is here:
>
> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eresources/exhibitions/treasures/
> images/200/232_001.jpg
>
> *MAYBE,* if those things were important to know, they could have
> printed up thousands of those handkerchiefs and required government
> officials to have them with them all the time. But... that's now
> how "knowledge" works in school.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

guideforthree

===However, I also know that the children in those families become
immediately engrossed once they see TV at anyone else's home, too===

I used to limit the tv time in my house. Because of this, any time
my kids were around tv they became zombies (just as my husband warned
would happen). This has totally disappeared since I removed the
restrictions. We just got home from L&L tonight and as we went
through the mail the kids threw the Avatar movie from Netflix aside
in favor of the magazines that had come in the mail.

In case the myth about television being detrimental to brain
development come to mind, I just want to add that my middle child,
who had the most tv restrictions, is the one that was labeled (ick -
that nasty word) with a developmental disorder. Stick that under
things that make you go Hmmm?.


====I didn't take the time to read the linx on video gaming - but
when I did research earlier I couldn't find anything definitive. So,
I look forward to reading something substantive.====

Google James Paul Gee. He is a education professor at Arizona State
University, and although I have never met the man, he is one of my
favorite education professors. He's on my people to meet list.
Anyway, I am reading a fabulous book he wrote called *What Video
Games Have to Teach Us about Learning and Literacy*. He requires all
of his education students to play video games. I have a link to an
interview with him on my blog, as well as some other links about
video games.

http://learningtrip.blogspot.com/2008/02/video-game-curriculum.html

A final note on video gaming - my second child, the one labeled with
the developmental disorder, came out of school in the middle of first
grade as a struggling reader who hated books. I did nothing to
address his reading other than give him free access to any video game
he wanted and read anything he asked me to read. He recently took
over a book I was reading to his little sister and finished it
flawlessly. I'm sold on the merits of video games.

Tina (who is part of the middle generation in a multi-generational
online gaming family)