Sandra Dodd

The e-mail below included a post I don't remember rejecting. Perhaps
another moderator rejected it. And maybe it was accidentally
rejected. It's not really important. What IS important is that if
the author could write to several members of this list (or even to a
few), why not just send the rejected or lost post directly to the
person who requested the help? Why not write to me as listowner and
ask what happened to the post? Why not just try to repost it if it
was a "seems to have been rejected" situation?

When I do reject a post (and it is rare), I write and explain why.

I have more comments below this:

************************************************************************
************
From: (a list member)
Date: August 28, 2008 6:33:05 PM MDT
To: (another list member)
Subject: New Yahoo Group: RawAlwaysLearning


As you know, this group is actively moderated, such that many posts
are rejected by the moderator, and the group never sees them. This is
the moderator's right, as she is the list owner. I believe that these
posts would be of interest/value to many in the AlwaysLearningGroup.
Therefore, I have created a group
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawAlwaysLearning/) where
AlwaysLearning members may post and discuss posts/topics which have
been rejected by this list. Join us!

Here is the first post to the RawAlwaysLearning group, which seems to
have been rejected by the moderator of the AlwaysLearningGroup:

************************************************************************
************

That list was started today and has four members.

Several things about this are irritating, but chief among them is
naming the list to match the name of this list. It's like stalking.
If you want to create a list, do it! But to create a list based on
this one is not healthy, good or right. A few years back someone
who was angry at the moderators of UnschoolingDiscussion created a
list called UnschoolingDiscussions, and solicited members from that
list (and certainly hoped to catch accidental traffic). The list
lasted a while on badmouthing me and others specifically. What kind
of basis is that for a list? It's discourteous at best. (And
they've had two posts in all of 2008 so far, so their thought they
could do better seems not to have been true.)

This is quite overstated:
"As you know, this group is actively moderated, such that many posts
are rejected by the moderator, and the group never sees them. "

There are not many posts rejected and there are several moderators.
Most of the posts rejected lately were purely nasty spam, and
phishing sales sites. You WANT moderation; seriously.

-=- I believe that these posts would be of interest/value to many in
the AlwaysLearningGroup. -=-

"These posts"? There are not "many" of them. So far, that list is
discussing ONE post, which I don't think I rejected.

And so I would like to ask that anyone who is unhappy with the list
either complain to me or just go happily to another list. Don't send
side e-mails to list members stating untruths and inviting them away
from the list. What a rude, tacky waste of time and energy.

Whatever topics ANYone wants to discuss, there are countless places
on the web to discuss them. This list is not and isn't trying to be
anyone's be-all and end-all. Be on as many different lists as you
want to be on to discuss all the things you want, but I do NOT
appreciate someone creating a counter-list, a critical list, a list
about my list.

With this, I am asking that the creator of RawAlwaysLearning delete
that list from yahoogroups and stop contacting the members of this
list. Don't even whine or apologize. Just stop. People have gotten
enough unsolicited mail about it already. If you want to have
another list, don't name it anything like "AlwaysLearning" and if you
want to solicit members from this list do it in a post to the list,
not with side mail. (And I do know the address of the listowner,
but as a courtesy I didn't include it above.)

Sandra

Karen

Sandra,

I want to apologize up front for any misunderstanding created by my emails.
I value this list. It is a wonderful resource for its members. Therefore,
I am not interested at all in inviting people *away* from it. The
RawAlwaysLearning group was planned as a *supplement* to it, not to replace
its valuable content. That would be duplicative.

Regarding the number of posts which may have been rejected for reasons other
than SPAM etc., "many" is a relative term, of course, so what may seem like
many to me (and the few who have told me about their rejected posts) may not
seem like many to someone else. To be more specific, the "many" includes
posts rejected on unschooling lists in general and not just this one.
Certainly, no dishonesty is involved--"many" is my honest opinion.

I believe that using a list to criticize others would be an unproductive,
negative endeavor. Rather, the supplemental group is intended to give
unschooling families a place where they might be able (1) use labels more
freely when they feel that such use is valuable; (2) speak more freely about
resources beyond "unschooling only" to help children with special needs,
learning "differences", or behavioral issues; and (3) speak more freely
about whether some "personality differences" and "learning differences"
relate to a diagnosis or biochemical condition. Members of some unschooling
lists have expressed to me their intimidation about so speaking.

My purpose in the name of the new group was to describe it as a supplemental
group. I can understand how it might feel like "stalking" if one is
expecting the list to be used to criticize another list. And I think that
you raise a good point that it is not necessary for me to include the name
of this list in the new one, so I plan to set up a replacement name/list. I
appreciate your offer to post such an announcement on this list.

Thank you, Karen

Sandra Dodd

-=-The RawAlwaysLearning group was planned as a *supplement* to it,
not to replace its valuable content.-=-

A secret supplement I wasn't to know about, though. A "supplement"
about which I wasn't consulted or informed. No matter how I squint,
it looks very critical.

-=-Regarding the number of posts which may have been rejected for
reasons other than SPAM etc., "many" is a relative term, of course,
so what may seem like many to me (and the few who have told me about
their rejected posts) may not seem like many to someone else.-=-

But if I rejected half of them, so what? I hardly ever reject any,
but going to individuals and saying that many are rejected when you
have no way to know that wasn't productive.

-=-To be more specific, the "many" includes posts rejected on
unschooling lists in general and not just this one. Certainly, no
dishonesty is involved--"many" is my honest opinion.-=-

The statement sent to many people (a countable many, but I don't want
the count) was "As you know..." not "in my opinion."

-=-Rather, the supplemental group is intended to give unschooling
families a place where they might be able (1) use labels more freely
when they feel that such use is valuable; (2) speak more freely about
resources beyond "unschooling only" to help children with special
needs, learning "differences", or behavioral issues; and (3) speak
more freely about whether some "personality differences" and
"learning differences" relate to a diagnosis or biochemical
condition. Members of some unschooling lists have expressed to me
their intimidation about so speaking.-=-

Then I think you should keep it absolutely separate from existing
lists and not in reference to them. If you have a better vision of
unschooling, start your own unschooling list, but be honest. If it's
unschooling with food limits, say so. If it's unschooling with
labels, say so.



Thanks for changing the name of your list.



Sandra
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On the other hand, other list regulars had lighter opinions:

-=-Whenever I hear of an new (alternative or mainstream) treatment
for any medical concern in my life, the first thing I do is go over
to www.quackwatch.org and do a search on the treatment or the person
promulgating it. Sometimes it's fine, at others I discover
questionable practices or that the person is being charged with
fraud. I'm always interested in reading the science, including the
abstracts of studies available, behind medical breakthroughs and
dietary advice. The latter seems to change constantly.-=-

-=-They're going to have a list made up entirely of talking about
posts that you rejected? The "Rejected by Sandra" list? I can't
imagine it going anywhere. There is a REASON why those posts are
rejected - they're bad posts of various kinds. So they are going to
try to have a list that is nothing but bad posts? I'm laughing pretty
hard and trying to tell [someone] about it. She heard the word "raw"
in their list name and said, "Ah - the list for "half-baked" ideas?"-=-

-=- really it's not much more than spam. I am mildly curious as to
why she would think I would be interested in a list with that
description, but I'm not going to open up the conversation with
questions.-=-

-=-I don't know where else this person would have gotten this e-mail
address, because I don't believe I have *ever* posted under this
screenname. Well, it does specifically mention Always Learning, but I
was thinking she was talking about a thread I had participated in,
but I haven't that I recall, and I definitely haven't under [that
name]. So, I thought I'd let you know, just in case. It doesn't
bother me a bit-easily deleted.-=-


Personally, I'm still pretty unhappy about it.
I think it's probably a violation of Yahoo's terms of service to
contact people that way--to have gone through a list to invite people
to another list. I don't want to turn anyone in about it, I just
really don't want it to happen anymore.

People didn't join this list to get uninvited e-mails, but only to
get posts from the list.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> (1) use labels more freely when they feel that such use is
> valuable;
> (2) speak more freely about resources beyond "unschooling only"
> to help children with special needs, learning "differences", or
> behavioral issues; and
> (3) speak more freely about whether some "personality differences"
> and "learning differences" relate to a diagnosis or biochemical
> condition.

Karen,

As a mom of a child diagnosed with Aspergers, please let me share my
opinion of this topic that can seem to be really sensitive to some
people.

When I was going through this conversation with these same people
about my son's label, they helped me learn I was focusing too much on
the label and not enough on my son directly. Yes, I found the label
immensely helpful because it gave me a focus for research to learn
more about how my son might think differently than my other two
children. But I rarely use that label anymore because I can describe
Jeffrey in other ways.

Let's say I'm participating in a conversation about kids and video
games. Using the label as a description, I might say that Jeffrey
can spend hours in front of the video game because his Aspergers
makes him an introvert and gives him a very narrow focus. Without
the label, I would say that Jeffrey has a passion for playing his
video games that brings him great joy. He gets into his games so
much that he likes to be alone when playing so he can give them all
his focus and energy. The label tends to give a negative slant
toward the child, whether intended or not. It's like saying, 'Oh I
know this isn't normal and good but my child has XYZ so we can't help
it.'

As for resources, I don't see why those couldn't be discussed here,
unless it's a disguised way of saying that special needs kids need
particular curriculum. I do understand that some people need
different ways of learning things but I still believe that should be
looked at in an individual way. Perhaps someone is thinking their
child is frustrated because they are expressing a desire to learn to
read but it's not coming as natural as they had hoped. Maybe the
parent could post that their child wants to learn to read without
following a phonics method, or without following a whole word method,
or whatever. Posed to the list in that specific way, people might
have some suggestions to help.

And lastly, personality differences will be and should be noticed in
every individual. My son's personality does not need to be described
or categorized by a label. My daughters' personalities aren't
defined that way. They just are who they are, and my son is no
different in that respect.

I hope some of what I've said helps someone. This topic can usually
be blown out of proportion fairly quickly. Someone might jump in and
say that people affected by specific medical conditions must take
medication or have specific therapy or require special needs. I
don't believe anyone on this list denies that fact. But I think the
important thing is to look at each child's needs and wants
individually, as a person, and not as a group under a label umbrella.

Beth M.

Ren Allen

~~And lastly, personality differences will be and should be noticed in
every individual. My son's personality does not need to be described
or categorized by a label. My daughters' personalities aren't
defined that way. They just are who they are, and my son is no
different in that respect.~~


EXACTLY!

I think anyone starting a list about "unschoolers ok with labels" is
under some delusion that this kind of viewpoing isn't EASY to find out
there. Just about EVERY list or discussion about kids dealing with any
label, are really INTO those labels, finding labels for kids and
trying to "fix" the child rather than adapt the parenting style and
environment.

I hate to even bring this up, because I'm honestly tired of seeing
people through labels of any "disability" or "disorder". I think what
we as a society consider "normal" is what's screwed up. BUT, my
youngest child would have definitely been labeled "on the spectrum".

How would I know this? We chose to do some Neuro-feedback (like
biofeedback but a lot more therapeutic) about a year ago. It was done
by a close friend who supports our parenting style 100% and is very
patient and gentle with my son when he's melting down or being intense
in some manner.

The intake form she did was VERY thorough. It took me about two hours
to go through it with her (without my child there). The psychologist
mentoring her during this process confirmed my suspicions that he
would have been labeled "Aspergers" or something "on the spectrum".

I never sought that opinion. Mary knew I had done research and needed
to understand my child to better support his needs. I had taken my
personal research to her as a friend who understood how I NEVER, EVER
wanted to seek out a "fix" or label him in any way. So in the end, I
did get a professional opinion that he would be diagnosed with exactly
what I suspected.

The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME to
learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
important at one phase in our journey.

Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
for him. Just like all of us. I have a feeling that most of what would
have gotten labeled in him, will have disappeared by the time he's an
adult. All that therapy and crap that gets shoved on these kids can do
a lot of damage to their sense of self....which is HUGE.

The Neurofeedback lasted a few sessions, he decided he was done with
it and we didn't pursue it again. He now asks Mary if he can play the
"brain games" when he's at her house sometimes. They helped him feel
really calm and soothed. I did it with him and I loved how soothing it
was.

Anyway, the entire point of this is so that in a discussion like this
people can't say "oh, you just don't understand". I DO understand. I
understand that there are very FEW places in the entire WORLD that
will help you see your child as PERFECT exactly as they are and try to
give you tools for being a more effective parent without trying to
alter your child.

There are very FEW places that will encourage you to drop labels and
grow more as a human being. This is one such place. Why on earth
create yet ANOTHER place that is "ok with labels"???

The world has enough of that readily available EVERYWHERE you turn.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Anyway, the entire point of this is so that in a discussion like this
people can't say "oh, you just don't understand". I DO understand. I
understand that there are very FEW places in the entire WORLD that
will help you see your child as PERFECT exactly as they are and try to
give you tools for being a more effective parent without trying to
alter your child.-=-

Yes. it's a way that people bat our information away, by saying "Oh,
but your kids have no problems, so you don't understand."

When Kirby was nine and I was participating on AOL discussions,
someone wrote that my oldest was nine, so others could disregard me
(ignore me, I forget the exact term used in the put-down). When
Kirby was nine, I'd been practicing attachment parenting for nine
years, he'd been going to bed when he was tired, and I wasn't trying
to "put him down for a nap" or any such thing. He could eat when and
what he wanted. He could watch videos or tv, and he could play
outside naked in the rain.

When Kirby was nine, I had been unschooling for part or most of five
years, had read everything I could find on the topic and
participated in usergroups and message boards as soon as I could find
any on *Prodigy and then AOL.

It's easier for people to find ways to ignore this list than it is
for people to go to the effort to examine their own behaviors and
beliefs in ways that could make their children's lives easier.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME to
learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
important at one phase in our journey.

-=-Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
for him. -=-

Ren, that's so much work. You *could* have just relaxed and said
"He's Asperger's, so his behavior can't be helped," and sat back
drinking in the shade with other moms while the kids all worked it
out themselves.



Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Yes. I can't tell that Ren has worked hard because it looks to me like her
child can take the credit for what a wonderful kid he is. Things I didn't
expect: smiling at people he doesn't know very well; confidence; busy about
his own thing and inclusive of others.

What a nice guy. I can't tell his mother has "worked" on him at all. I
made the comment the other day that nothing of him has been chipped away.
He is just so much more himSelf than ever. Ren doesn't talk about any of
this stuff in real life. He looks thrilled about life. I *know* Ren is
thrilled.

Sometimes labels are about garnering parental credit, and garnering credit
for professionals (after all it is their bread and butter). Labels make it
convenient to point to the child and give him "credit" for the problem and
then turn around and try to take credit themselves for solutions.

It's not always that way, but it's too typically that way and hurts
children's happiness.

~Katherine




On 8/30/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME to
> learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
> important at one phase in our journey.
>
> -=-Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
> environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
> intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
> for him. -=-
>
> Ren, that's so much work. You *could* have just relaxed and said
> "He's Asperger's, so his behavior can't be helped," and sat back
> drinking in the shade with other moms while the kids all worked it
> out themselves.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-There are very FEW places that will encourage you to drop labels and
grow more as a human being. This is one such place. Why on earth
create yet ANOTHER place that is "ok with labels"???-=-



I know a reason NOT to create a place that encourages the use of labels.

Every time a child is labelled he is harmed.

If a parent starts out treating the child as an individual and
respecting and accepting and helping and guiding and coaching, a
whole child gets bigger and better. IF (if if if) for some reason
it becomes necessary or advisable later for that child to learn some
ways that he is like other problematical children, he can handle
learning that when he's twelve or fifteen better than if he has grown
up feeling and believing there was something wrong with him.

You want an example that's just a little off sides of it? A family
we knew with two biological children adopted three more. They named
them and everything, but they called them "our little Russian girl"
and "our Korean boy" and "our Russian boy." Right in front of them.
For years. And they were Americans, having been adopted by
Americans, but somehow they weren't. And they were children of those
parents, having been adopted, but clearly they weren't quite as much
as those who were called by their names.

We were in a playgroup and the kids visited back and forth when they
were little, and we lost contact, but in the past few years "the
little Russian girl" (we use her name but I won't here) resurfaced in
my boys' lives. She was working in one of the places Kirby worked.
She still felt floatily displaced, and like a foster child ore than
an adoptee. Or maybe it was that she figured as soon as she could be
out of that house she'd be gone. And she wasn't making the best
decisions, when she was newly out. She'd been told what to do and
how all those years AND reminded several times a day that she was
adopted. She was constantly referred to and treated as a Russian
child adopted by a noble American family. Labelled like a monkey at
the zoo.

Kirby would have been labelled, if he had gone to school at five. He
just wasn't ready for school yet, but there are names for that, so
they can get funding for that, and so the teachers can say "I would
have taught him to read but he's XYZ," or "We told him to sit down
and be quiet, but he's ABC."

Marty would have been labelled if he had gone to school. He's left-
handed, that's obvious. But there are attributes often associated
with left-handedness in boys, and rather than just assume that
lefties might have those other traits, they name the other traits and
treat them as a "condition." Well his "condition" is that he's just
like hundreds of thousands of other lefty-boys his age. Math will be
easier than reading for all of them. Big deal. It doesn't need "the
D word." (Duh.) But schools are NOT set up to treat children as
individuals, and increasingly they're set up to treat children as
aberrations, as diseases, as pathologies.



Unschooling works the same way for every child. To sort your
children out into gifted and challenged and ADHD or ADD (carefully
noting the differences) and dyslexic and intense and explosive and
sensitive and introverted and spectrum, or if you want to lean
toward indigo, old-soul, psychic or changeling... it's all counter-
productive to unschooling.



If you want to think about your child's learning preferences and
talents look here:

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences

Don't use it to label them. Use it to gain your own understanding
that every human has strengths and weaknesses and we shouldn't expect
anyone to learn the same way another person learns. When children
are already being nurtured in individual ways, bringing in outside
labels will hurt; it won't help.



When there are unschooling lists helping people deal with their
children in ways that will work for any and every child, an
unschooling list that tells people to ignore the advice against
sorting and labeling will hurt; it won't help.

Sandra








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Oh ok. I have another thing to say. People use categories all the time as
a way to organize their thoughts about people and things in their lives.
It's natural to the thinking process.

As a thought organization tool, it's fine as long as those thoughts are
primarily private ones. Ren's example of being private and sensitive with
any categories she was working with in her own mind led her to consult with
a trusted individual who agreed to help in ways that coincided with Ren's
parenting style in order to facilitate what is in essence the child's
journey. It sounds like she was about to get the information she wanted
without making it official. Perfect.

It was about empowering the child rather than coping with him as a labeled
individual.

Gosh I wish I had had that as a child, but I won't go into that all over
again. It's really time that I dropped my own label which I've carried
around for more than 40 years. The weight of it really hasn't helped. At
all. It's been hard to admit that. Because after a while, labels do become
a prop to use in the not so optimal environments.

~Katherine


On 8/30/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> Yes. I can't tell that Ren has worked hard because it looks to me like her
> child can take the credit for what a wonderful kid he is. Things I didn't
> expect: smiling at people he doesn't know very well; confidence; busy about
> his own thing and inclusive of others.
>
> What a nice guy. I can't tell his mother has "worked" on him at all. I
> made the comment the other day that nothing of him has been chipped away.
> He is just so much more himSelf than ever. Ren doesn't talk about any of
> this stuff in real life. He looks thrilled about life. I *know* Ren is
> thrilled.
>
> Sometimes labels are about garnering parental credit, and garnering credit
> for professionals (after all it is their bread and butter). Labels make it
> convenient to point to the child and give him "credit" for the problem and
> then turn around and try to take credit themselves for solutions.
>
> It's not always that way, but it's too typically that way and hurts
> children's happiness.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
> On 8/30/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME
>> to
>> learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
>> important at one phase in our journey.
>>
>> -=-Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
>> environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
>> intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
>> for him. -=-
>>
>> Ren, that's so much work. You *could* have just relaxed and said
>> "He's Asperger's, so his behavior can't be helped," and sat back
>> drinking in the shade with other moms while the kids all worked it
>> out themselves.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Proofing my post once again:

I said: It sounds like she was about to get the information she wanted
without making it official.
I meant: "she was [able] to get the information

On 8/30/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> Oh ok. I have another thing to say. People use categories all the time as
> a way to organize their thoughts about people and things in their lives.
> It's natural to the thinking process.
>
> As a thought organization tool, it's fine as long as those thoughts are
> primarily private ones. Ren's example of being private and sensitive with
> any categories she was working with in her own mind led her to consult with
> a trusted individual who agreed to help in ways that coincided with Ren's
> parenting style in order to facilitate what is in essence the child's
> journey. It sounds like she was about to get the information she wanted
> without making it official. Perfect.
>
> It was about empowering the child rather than coping with him as a labeled
> individual.
>
> Gosh I wish I had had that as a child, but I won't go into that all over
> again. It's really time that I dropped my own label which I've carried
> around for more than 40 years. The weight of it really hasn't helped. At
> all. It's been hard to admit that. Because after a while, labels do become
> a prop to use in the not so optimal environments.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
> On 8/30/08, k <katherand@...> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. I can't tell that Ren has worked hard because it looks to me like
>> her child can take the credit for what a wonderful kid he is. Things I
>> didn't expect: smiling at people he doesn't know very well; confidence; busy
>> about his own thing and inclusive of others.
>>
>> What a nice guy. I can't tell his mother has "worked" on him at all. I
>> made the comment the other day that nothing of him has been chipped away.
>> He is just so much more himSelf than ever. Ren doesn't talk about any of
>> this stuff in real life. He looks thrilled about life. I *know* Ren is
>> thrilled.
>>
>> Sometimes labels are about garnering parental credit, and garnering credit
>> for professionals (after all it is their bread and butter). Labels make it
>> convenient to point to the child and give him "credit" for the problem and
>> then turn around and try to take credit themselves for solutions.
>>
>> It's not always that way, but it's too typically that way and hurts
>> children's happiness.
>>
>> ~Katherine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/30/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> -=-The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME
>>> to
>>> learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
>>> important at one phase in our journey.
>>>
>>> -=-Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
>>> environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
>>> intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
>>> for him. -=-
>>>
>>> Ren, that's so much work. You *could* have just relaxed and said
>>> "He's Asperger's, so his behavior can't be helped," and sat back
>>> drinking in the shade with other moms while the kids all worked it
>>> out themselves.
>>>
>>> Sandra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
>
> I think anyone starting a list about "unschoolers ok with labels" is
> under some delusion that this kind of viewpoing isn't EASY to find out
> there. Just about EVERY list or discussion about kids dealing with any
> label, are really INTO those labels, finding labels for kids and
> trying to "fix" the child rather than adapt the parenting style and
> environment.
>


I agree here- my youngest would also be "somewhere" on the spectrum and
it is she who led me to search out "other" parenting styles because I
know that with conventional parenting she would be the "always be in
trouble" kid - in fact she has a cousin born 3 days before her and they
have had almost identical personalities since birth and to see the
difference in them NOW is like night and day

I would never never trade my little girl and unschooling- her cousin and
her are now almost 4 and he is going to attend preschool and I can
already see that he will already be the kid that "does not listen or
focus" and I bet that before too many years pass he will be ADD labelled
or something eles

In contrast my little girl is still intense but with unschooling has
mellowed So much. My husband is home for two weeks from overseas and we
are waiting for a baby to be born and she has been reverting to some
pre-unschooling behaviors which make me realize just how far she has
come and I am so thankful for NOT giving her a label just to justify her
behaviors

labels do not help - they may be slightly comforting but in the end you
have to see your child and NOT the label- until you can see past the
label you are only seeing the label

Julie

www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com
<http://www.the-life-of-fun.blogspot.com>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

><<<< Ren, that's so much work. You *could* have just relaxed and said
> "He's Asperger's, so his behavior can't be helped," and sat back
> drinking in the shade with other moms while the kids all worked it
> out themselves. >>>>

Exactly! There's a higher level of mental and physical energy that time and
time again Unschoolers are willing to expend. It's inspiring.

And I have come to just assume that all parents will do whatever it takes.
It takes a thumping great reminder that most won't.

The short story is that Jayn and one of her friends had an altercation at
her house, and it turned out that the mom was taking a nap in the other room
so Jayn and two siblings had been left unsupervised. All the kids had pretty
different stories about what happened. The little girl is going through some
emotional development stuff right now including a lot of big "overreaction"
screaming to other kids, running to "tell" even when no-one has hurt her,
which all look like crying out for even more attention than the mom gives
(who is by no means inattentive!).

We did some email back and forth, and I suggested that the kids really
needed an adult presence when they play to be more proactive in snuffing out
conflicts before they became huge, and so that someone observing would know
what was really happened and be able to sort out the conflicting accounts. I
expressed my willingness to continue to be present in the room when they
play here, and always to watch them outside, even with how inconvenient that
could be for me.

The other mother flat refused to change anything that she was doing, and
told me she intended to continue to wait to be called if they needed
mediation - which to give credit where it is due, she is very good at. It
was up to me to set limits for Jayn at their house. Well the last is
certainly true, but difficult. In the past I have been guilty of using
Jayn's playtime with these kids as a bit of a break for me, when I could get
some writing or other work done. I suspect the other mom has the same
feeling.

I'm trying to understand her point of view. It seems to me that she values
independence and self-sufficiency and wants to give her kids the
"opportunity" to work stuff out. I guess from an Unschooling pov she is
pushing them to self-sufficiency. I'm seeing the disparity of age/maturity
between the three kids as a factor that works against her goals, as well as
recalling the history of dishonesty that has permeated so many of the
interactions between them. They need a witness to keep them honest! They
need even more of our energy. Well I'm willing to give it.

This isn't the first time Ren has inspired me!

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Karen

Wow, how I wish the names of Yahoo Groups offered more characters !!! I
knew that the name of the new group would require additional explanation but
did not have time to provide it yesterday! It is anticipated that those who
see the group name on Yahoo will look at the group description to better
understand!

I agree with *much* of your comments regarding the use of labels. I would
really welcome suggestions for more suitable names for the group. The group
description includes the following: "...place where they may (1) use labels
more freely *when they feel that such use is valuable*" [emphasis added].
In addition, the group is *not* intended to shield members from discussion
of unproductive uses of labels. The description further states, "This list
is about unschooling in general and is not intended to focus on debate about
labels, etc., although such debate is allowed. This list is simply intended
to be a bit more inclusive."

I recognize that current lists may have been inclusive enough that the
flavor of posts on the new list will end up being no different. I am
offering up the group anyway in case it is helpful to some.

Karen

donnakeeble

>
> I hate to even bring this up, because I'm honestly tired of seeing
> people through labels of any "disability" or "disorder". I think what
> we as a society consider "normal" is what's screwed up. BUT, my
> youngest child would have definitely been labeled "on the spectrum".
>
> How would I know this? We chose to do some Neuro-feedback (like
> biofeedback but a lot more therapeutic) about a year ago. It was done
> by a close friend who supports our parenting style 100% and is very
> patient and gentle with my son when he's melting down or being intense
> in some manner.
>
> The intake form she did was VERY thorough. It took me about two hours
> to go through it with her (without my child there). The psychologist
> mentoring her during this process confirmed my suspicions that he
> would have been labeled "Aspergers" or something "on the spectrum".
>
> I never sought that opinion. Mary knew I had done research and needed
> to understand my child to better support his needs. I had taken my
> personal research to her as a friend who understood how I NEVER, EVER
> wanted to seek out a "fix" or label him in any way. So in the end, I
> did get a professional opinion that he would be diagnosed with exactly
> what I suspected.
>
> The only reason the research even happened was in an effort for ME to
> learn and grow and understand how to support my child. It was so
> important at one phase in our journey.
>
> Rather than trying to make him fit the environment, we try to create
> environments in which he can fully blossom. As he gets older, his
> intensities lessen, he finds more coping tools and things get better
> for him. Just like all of us. I have a feeling that most of what would
> have gotten labeled in him, will have disappeared by the time he's an
> adult. All that therapy and crap that gets shoved on these kids can do
> a lot of damage to their sense of self....which is HUGE.
>
> The Neurofeedback lasted a few sessions, he decided he was done with
> it and we didn't pursue it again. He now asks Mary if he can play the
> "brain games" when he's at her house sometimes. They helped him feel
> really calm and soothed. I did it with him and I loved how soothing it
> was.
>
> Anyway, the entire point of this is so that in a discussion like this
> people can't say "oh, you just don't understand". I DO understand. I
> understand that there are very FEW places in the entire WORLD that
> will help you see your child as PERFECT exactly as they are and try to
> give you tools for being a more effective parent without trying to
> alter your child.
>
> There are very FEW places that will encourage you to drop labels and
> grow more as a human being. This is one such place. Why on earth
> create yet ANOTHER place that is "ok with labels"???
>
> The world has enough of that readily available EVERYWHERE you turn.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>


I think this helps point out what I see as the difference between a
label and a diagnosis. No, I do not want to label my child, but we
did need to better understand him. We sought out a medical diagnosis.
At the time that is what helped *us* help our child.

Now that he has left public school and we have moved into unschooling,
the diagnosis is hardly needed. I say hardly not never.... He enjoys
a camp with other Tourette Syndrome children in the summer and could
not continue to attend without his diagnosis.

What I have found with unschoolers is that I need to do a lot less
explaining about why he does certain things. We do not have to
introduce our child and a list of labels, diagnoses, or personality
traits - he just IS. We, as a family, feel more authentic. He has
not been cured of Tourette Syndrome or OCD but has found more peace in
not focusing on it. If it helps another child or family to know that
my child has TS or OCD, we will share. When he goes to TS camp and
the other kids are bringing in bags and bottles of medications to make
their behaviour more socially acceptable, maybe he and unschooling can
be a bit of a testament to alternatives as he has been able to remain
med free. Aidan does not mind in the least that people know he has TS
or OCD and he LOVES unschooling. Maybe by sharing a diagnosis, we can
help others who come looking for help for their own children. I
understand that each family is different, but in our home, I do not
think that a child can be made to think less of themselves because of
a *diagnosis*. A *label* can be damaging. If I were to say this is
my goth daughter Jane, here is my Touretter Aidan, my jock Noel, and
the baby Gareth - yeah, that would be a problem. But if for example,
somebody comes to an unschooling list saying will unschooling work for
my child with Tourette Syndrome who has accommodations x, y, and z at
school?? Yep, yes it will AND you can throw away the IEP AND you will
never have to go to another case conference meeting.

I think sometimes it easier for an always unschooling family to live
without a diagnosis and a trust in unschooling. Those of us who got
there later, may need more concrete examples of how it works. If it
helps others, we will share.

Donna

As a funny coincidence - I checked my mail while composing and editing
this email. We just received an invite to a TS family camp weekend in
May of 2009. It is extremely unlikely that I would go camping with a
bunch of public school families when the only thing we may have in
common is a child with Tourette Syndrome. On the other hand, we are
very excited and counting down to our unschooling campout next weekend.

Sandra Dodd

-=-It is anticipated that those who
see the group name on Yahoo will look at the group description to better
understand!-=-

More explanation, emphasis and tweaking won't change the facts.



-=-I recognize that current lists may have been inclusive enough that
the flavor of posts on the new list will end up being no different. I
am offering up the group anyway in case it is helpful to some.-=-

I understand you've said there that you won't have much time to
participate, so it seems at this point it was a slap at me and a big
promotion of your one long post about the dangers of ADHD. That's
still offensive. I wish you would just drop that list and let people
find their own ADHD lists if they want them, and their own dyslexia
lists if they want them, and their own unschooling lists. There are
dozens.



To create a list you don't intend to participate on daily isn't very
helpful to anyone in any way.



Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen

Further explanation:

The title is intended to get the attention of someone who is seeking an
unschooling group that *may* not be as reactionary when labels are
used--those
who want to spend more discussion time (which may include labels) to help
their families and less time fielding posts which may feel like
second-guesses as to whether their use of labels in their own personal
situations is appropriate.

I recognize that posts challenging the use of labels can be and often are
extremely useful in helping parents to be more conscious of the impact of
their use. As such posts are well represented on other unschooling lists,
the new list is intended to be a place with a little less "noise" on this
issue, so that the list may be used more efficiently by those who "get it"
about labels and want to receive the benefit of the doubt about their
particular use of labels. This way they can move on to what they really
wanted to discuss.

I really welcome suggestions for approaches to accomplish this goal. I
would also be happy if someone wanted to take over this group/project. I am
too busy to be tackling this, but I wanted to get it started, because my
heart goes out to families with special needs. As such needs are likely
more common among homeschooling families, I see such a group as that much
more important within the context of homeschooling.

Karen

Sandra Dodd

-=-those
who want to spend more discussion time (which may include labels) to
help
their families...-=-

Who's keeping them from spending time discussing their families now?
If not this list, there are others:

http://sandradodd.com/lists/other

and there are lists run by homeschooling magazines, and LOTS of
others I don't have listed.



-=-...and less time fielding posts which may feel like
second-guesses as to whether their use of labels in their own personal
situations is appropriate.-=-

They SHOULD be second guessing whether their use of labels in their
own personal situations is appropriate.

You want to create a group where they'll be encouraged and comforted
about something that is harmful to unschooling. Why would you want
to do that, unless you have something to sell or you yourself like to
ignore the fact that labels harm children. Unless you yourself don't
like the central idea that unschooling involves a change in parental
attitude and behavior.

-=-As such posts are well represented on other unschooling lists, the
new list is intended to be a place with a little less "noise" on this
issue, -=-

"Noise"? Is that what you call things you were ignoring, maybe?
Like "blah blah blah behavior blah blah acceptance" instead of "it's
all about diet and allergies, and the moms don't need to change
anything except to control their children's diets"?



-=-...so that the list may be used more efficiently by those who "get
it" about labels and want to receive the benefit of the doubt about
their particular use of labels.-=-

What if there is no doubt. I think you want to CREATE doubt, and I'm
very suspicious of the reasons, increasingly so since the description
of your list is changing constantly now. I guess it won't be about
rejected posts. And you won't run it.

-=-I am too busy to be tackling this, but I wanted to get it started,-=-

Too busy doing what? If you're too busy to run that list, you're
probably way too busy to even read this one, so it's easy for you to
state that I'm this way or that about your favorite topics, without
really knowing. It think a search for ADHD or allergies or labels
in the archives of this list alone would give you more reading than
you could do in a week, yet you think another list is useful.

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

> -=-It is anticipated that those who
> see the group name on Yahoo will look at the group description to
> better
> understand!-=-

You had a chance to explain on the invitations, but all you said was
that you'd created a group to discuss the many interesting/valuable
posts that were rejected by this list's moderator. No mention of
labels, etc.

You apparently had a post rejected. Did you get an explanation from
the moderator? What makes you think there are "many" posts rejected?
How many would be "many" in your mind?

List harvesting is bad Netiquette. List harvesting means collecting a
bunch of email addresses of members of one group in order to send them
all something - usually it is spam, but it is still a violation of
good Netiquette even if it for a beneficial purpose. When someone
joins a list, they are not opting in to receive emails soliciting them
to join another list.

-pam

k

Karen, why not go ahead and talk about labels? It IS inclusive here.

~Katherine



On 8/30/08, Karen <kb@...> wrote:
>
> Wow, how I wish the names of Yahoo Groups offered more characters !!! I
> knew that the name of the new group would require additional explanation
> but
> did not have time to provide it yesterday! It is anticipated that those who
> see the group name on Yahoo will look at the group description to better
> understand!
>
> I agree with *much* of your comments regarding the use of labels. I would
> really welcome suggestions for more suitable names for the group. The group
> description includes the following: "...place where they may (1) use labels
> more freely *when they feel that such use is valuable*" [emphasis added].
> In addition, the group is *not* intended to shield members from discussion
> of unproductive uses of labels. The description further states, "This list
> is about unschooling in general and is not intended to focus on debate
> about
> labels, etc., although such debate is allowed. This list is simply intended
> to be a bit more inclusive."
>
> I recognize that current lists may have been inclusive enough that the
> flavor of posts on the new list will end up being no different. I am
> offering up the group anyway in case it is helpful to some.
>
> Karen
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mrsdebus

We took our ds (now 9.5yrs) to a psychologist when he was 5. He was
(most unexpectedly) given 5 different labels.

We were shocked, and sad. It seemed that our marvellous boy was
actually deficient. I immersed myself in some of those labels, and saw
how he *could* have them attached (and myself too).

I even joined a support group for one of the labels. I wanted to
understand what it meant for my son, for us, and for our future. But, I
quit after a day or two...all it really made me do was wallow, and
obsess over it. I didn't need to hear how to be my child's advocate in
school , and I didn't like thinking about him as less than.

I wanted to go back to when I thought he was incredible.

So I did...and that's where I am now- helped along by lists such as this
one.

DS has problems with some areas of life, just as I do- just as anyone
does. But he is who he is, and I think he's magic :0)

Shell (in NZ)
ds9, dd5, ds 21 months

Ren Allen

~~What a nice guy. I can't tell his mother has "worked" on him at all.
I made the comment the other day that nothing of him has been chipped
away. He is just so much more himSelf than ever. Ren doesn't talk
about any of this stuff in real life. He looks thrilled about life. I
*know* Ren is thrilled.~~

OMG. You have no idea how nice it was to read this. I am tearing up.
All that work was about ME and how to BE the best Mom for him. I often
don't feel I live up to what he needs, but then we hit a breakthrough
and I know I'm a great Mom for this child. I've learned so much
because of him.

This paragraph coming from Katherine means so much. Many list members
don't know this but she stayed at our house for a week or so and
Jalen's intensities were so much that they couldn't stay any longer. I
felt so badly, but it was too much for Jalen to handle anyone in his
home and it was awfully hard on Katherine's little guy because of that.

For anyone that didn't know him a couple years ago, they might think
I'm making some of the stuff up. So it means a lot to hear from
someone who has seen changes.

He IS being fully himself, exactly as every child can be if the
parents give them trust and room to develop rather than seeing them as
broken.

He is SO perfectly Jalen (though he changed his name to Scott recently
and I'm still trying to adapt to that one!).

Ren

Ren Allen

~~
I think this helps point out what I see as the difference between a
label and a diagnosis. No, I do not want to label my child, but we
did need to better understand him. We sought out a medical diagnosis.
At the time that is what helped *us* help our child.~~

Sometimes it can help a child understand themselves better too. But I
think that the desire for that should be within the individual.
Sometimes I LIKE the fact that I've read and understand the ADD label
for myself.:) But I chose that, nobody put it on me. And I don't see
myself as "an ADD person" but a person that has a lot of "ADD traits".
My choice. It would have been very harmful for someone to attach that
to me. I don't see it as a disorder either.

I understand the need to have a label for other people too. I have had
family members or friends look at me strange when he's cussing or
otherwise "freaking out" (what it looks like to them) and it's been
helpful on occasion to explain it by saying "he has some sensory
issues" or "he's highly sensitive". Both could be harmful, but by
using it with more mainstream people they could give him space and be
more forgiving.

We mostly are around VERY respectful and understanding people though,
so it really hasn't been an issue for us. The friends we surround
ourselves with are quite capable of assisting him in respectful ways.
In fact, he had his very first outing without myself or dh present
last week. He's 7.5 and it was a BIG deal to go to a party without us.
His sister is very good at arbitrating for him and being extremely
patient (she's uber amazing that way).

He ran up when I got their exlaiming "I did GREAT Mom...I didn't get
scared without you and Dad here the whole time!!". Then Sierra comes
up and says "Mom, Jalen did GREAT".

Two different perspectives on what "great" meant.;) Huge milestone for
him and for all of us. Two years ago I had doubts that we'd ever have
casual social interactions that didn't take TONS of energy and
presence on my part. It's getting downright EASY these days.

Ren

Joanna Murphy

> Unschooling works the same way for every child. To sort your
> children out into gifted and challenged and ADHD or ADD (carefully
> noting the differences) and dyslexic and intense and explosive and
> sensitive and introverted and spectrum, or if you want to lean
> toward indigo, old-soul, psychic or changeling... it's all counter-
> productive to unschooling.
>
>
That's so awesome Sandra! Thank you for just saying that. We live in such a weird time of
looking at personalities with a microscope and picking every little darn thing apart. Ewww!

This topic just came up on a local list--this issue about "gifted vs. challenged." My
contribution was to point out that since unschooling is all about focusing on strengths and
interests, everyone is gifted, because when a person is operating in their element, they
shine. Plain and simple. And everyone has an element. I don't get the insistence on
making more of it than that.

All the talk about specialists and resources can certainly cloud the issue, and since it's not
a world I've ever been in it can seem official and important and like something someone
might need, although my gut has told me that unschooling can be way better than any of
it. I appreciate hearing from everyone who has had direct or indirect experience with it
that it does seem to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Joanna

Ren Allen

~~
I really welcome suggestions for approaches to accomplish this goal. I
would also be happy if someone wanted to take over this group/project.
I am too busy to be tackling this, but I wanted to get it started,
because my heart goes out to families with special needs.~~

All families have special needs.
If you don't have time, don't start it. Because you're wasting a lot
of other people's time.
There are plenty of lists to address "high needs" and other issues. If
the person who starts it doesn't have a strong vision, passion and
time to devote, it's just a waste.

Ren

Ren Allen

~~I wanted to go back to when I thought he was incredible.~~

Yes.
The problem in my mind, is with society's very narrow view of what is
"normal". There are so many AMAZING and talented and beautiful people
that have some pretty bizarre quirks. If we could just learn how to
truly embrace every individual as the unique work of art they ARE,
what a better world that would be.

I think of Cindy Gaddis who has some kids with pretty severe autism
who could be easily dismissed by someone. One of her sons absolutely
LOVES cars. He "played" in my van at two different campouts our
families attended. I quote "played" because it's actually quite
serious interest and focused attention on his part.

After the first gathering I didn't see this child for six months. He
walked up to me at the next gathering and said "You're name is Ren.
You drive a silver Toyota Sienna." After I scooped my jaw off the
floor I was able to answer him!

He's a quirky, intelligent, amazing, beautiful human being. He's not
broken or disabled or any such thing. He is perfectly himself.

Ren

Sandra Dodd

-=-Karen, why not go ahead and talk about labels? It IS inclusive
here.-=-

It what is inclusive where?
This is a radical unschooling list, and here's the post Karen was so
attached to that she built a list around it:



-------------
Re: Autism, ADHD, etc. and labels was New to list

> I would really love to hear from someone else who has experienced
>
this first hand.

My DD had severe ADHD. Her symptoms included severe hyperactivity
dangerously combined with impulsivity (such as no thought or care
before running into a busy street), inability to focus and related
frustration with herself, very oppositional behavior, poor eye
contact, difficulty listening, emotional hypersensitivity, social
anxiety, overwhelmed by clean-up projects. She would say very
negative things about herself and had chronic headaches. Her ADHD
counterpart of autistic "flapping" was endless somersaulting on our
ottoman just to keep herself in motion. Sometimes she would launch
herself into belly-flops onto the ottoman or a bed just to keep
herself in motion. Another repetitive type of behavior would be
continuous rewinding to listen to a tiny segment of music or a DVD
over and over again. It is with untold gratitude to posts on ADHD
support lists and other research under "ADHD" that these symptoms are
a thing of the past for her--a nightmare for the whole family that has
finally ended.

The long, tedious journey through research eventually prompted me to
try the Feingold Diet and gluten-free casein free, as well as dietary
supplements. These all helped tremendously. Then finally, through
one of the ADHD lists, I discovered NAET (www.naet.org). You sure
won't hear this in the mainstream, but it turns out that she, like
most with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, Tourette Syndrome, etc., had many
types of hidden/internal allergies to various foods and chemicals.
These allergies result in central-nervous-system blockages as well as
lack of proper absorption of nutrients from food. The part of the
brain involved in ADHD was malnourished/starving. (There are even
books about this dietary aspect such as "Children With Starving
Brains", "Is This Your Child?", "The Gut-Brain Connection", "Healing
The New Childhood Epidemics: Autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies", and
"Say Good-bye To ADD and ADHD".) Behavioral allergies to otherwise
healthy foods are often involved as well. My DD had behavioral
reactions to oranges that would last for a good two or three days.
She also reacted to perfumes, pesticides, food additives. She was
found to be allergic to her own dopamine and neurotransmitters. NAET
is non-invasive energy medicine that works extremely well (in the
hands of a quality, experienced practitioner) to eliminate all kinds
of allergies (which in DD's case, manifested as behavioral reactions).

The many factors in acquiring such allergies include our Western diets
and food additives. As DD is able to understand, I will be teaching
her about the importance of a healthy diet (which is not the food
pyramid and not low fat--www.westonaprice.org, www.mercola.com) to
help prevent her from re-developing allergies, to be vigilant to the
signs of ADHD that could signal that she has redeveloped allergies, to
the dangers of allowing any ADHD relapse to go untreated.

By the way, DD's ADHD was accompanied by the gifts of a fairly
photographic memory and exceptional creativity...both of which she
still has!!

Karen






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~-a nightmare for the whole family that has
finally ended.~~

Wow. I missed this one. I am SO sad that a child's behavior traits
would be looked at as a "nightmare". My Scott/Jalen has displayed all
of the traits that were listed. I don't see them as a "nightmare" but
as a part of who-he-is. I just so saddened by this pov.

I also question the "finally ended" because we've found that the
behavior tends to cycle. We had an entire month of absolutely blissful
interactions followed by a difficult four months. This is a very
NORMAL part of his development...something I've witnessed all along.
The "easy" cycles get longer and longer, the "difficult" cycles get
less and less intense.

But "finally ended"?? Really? How long has this been? I don't believe
it and I don't believe that anyone "on the spectrum" can be cured or
needs to be cured...because it isn't a disease.

Ren

Sandra Dodd

My problem with this is that it has little to nothing to do with
unschooilng:

--=Then finally, through
one of the ADHD lists, I discovered NAET (www.naet.org). You sure
won't hear this in the mainstream, but it turns out that she, like
most with ADHD, autism, dyslexia, Tourette Syndrome, etc., had many
types of hidden/internal allergies to various foods and chemicals -=-



Also the address is wrong, but if people want the right one they can
find it pretty easily.

When mothers LOVE the idea that limiting a child's diet can cure a
disease/condition like "ADHD" they're moving away from unschooling
and not toward it.



If a child is limited and told what his food is doing to him (or
doing to the mom, more like, or to the mom's idea of peace and
perfection) the child is NOT closer to discovering for herself what
foods she wants, likes and needs. Each of my kids has foods they
know don't agree with them one way or another. They know because
since they were little they've never been forced to eat any foods,
nor had foods forbidden. They don't fear food, nor crave particular
foods. They're open and matter-of-fact with foods, unlike VERY many
people around us who put more value on foods for odd, snobby,
superstitious or reactionary reasons.

-=-My DD had behavioral reactions to oranges that would last for a
good two or three days.-=-

"Behavioral reactions" will happen for all kinds of reasons, but the
backlash from parental limits and shame will cause some BIG
behavioral reactions, later if not sooner.



-=-As DD is able to understand, I will be teaching her about the
importance of a healthy diet-=-

Not helping her learn? Teaching?



-=-...to be vigilant to the signs of ADHD that could signal that she
has redeveloped allergies, to the dangers of allowing any ADHD
relapse to go untreated.-=-

"The dangers" of ADHD "relapse" sounds like alarmist nonsense.

On the other list it was mentioned (by the same author) that ADHD can
be life-threatening. That's a HUGE over-reaction. Parental
overcontrol can be life-threatening too. Drinking water, walking on
ice and snow, swimming in the ocean, riding bicycles, eating fish--
all life-threatening.

A positive life with allergies seems preferable to a fearful,
alarmist negative life with a mom who wants to focus on food instead
of people.



Sandra










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