carnationsgalore

1. How do I help ds11 earn money from outside our family? He is the
type of person who never wants to get rid of anything. We have
several boxes in the attic of toys/books/games he has outgrown but
that he insist we keep. I told him selling the things he no longer
used would not only give him money to purchase something that he can
use, but would likely benefit the buyer as well. But my son really
doesn't want to let anything go. He has Asperger's Syndrome and has
a different way of looking at things than I or my husband do, which
makes communication challenging sometimes. I really can't find my
way out of the box on this one other than to get a part-time job in
the evening myself so that I can earn money for him to use that
isn't currently in our means of living. I just feel that would
disrupt our family flow and I'm not sure how to look at it.

2. A recurring discussion between me and DH is the matter of a high
school diploma. My dh really doesn't want our children getting a
GED because of the poor reputation it has, kids who have dropped out
of school or been forced out of the school system. This locks us
into a traditional educational way of thinking because in order to
earn a high school diploma in the state of Georgia, the student must
complete an accredited program. That means 4 years of high school.
That means my ds11 should be working on some academics, specifically
math and language arts, in order to be prepared for high school. I
am positive there is another way to look at this but haven't yet
found a good way to help me explain this to my DH. I hear about
unschooled teens having jobs and careers, but my DH says that he
doesn't know of anyone who can be hired beyond the age of 18 without
a high school diploma. Thoughts?

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I told him selling the things he no longer
used would not only give him money to purchase something that he can
use, but would likely benefit the buyer as well. But my son really
doesn't want to let anything go.-=-

You'll probably make more money saving them and selling them later,
and it's not worth the sorrow of letting things go. So say I, Sandra
a life-long packrat with some COOL stuff (and who has sold some cool
stuff for seriously more than I paid).

-=-. My dh really doesn't want our children getting a GED because of
the poor reputation it has, kids who have dropped out of school or
been forced out of the school system.-=-

Or, nowadays, kids who opted not to even go in at all. The
reputation isn't what it used to be. Neither is the "value" of a
high school diploma!

My kids don't have GEDs. They just go to jobs and say "I was
homeschooled." That's that.

-=-This locks us into a traditional educational way of thinking
because in order to earn a high school diploma in the state of
Georgia, the student must complete an accredited program.-=-

It does NOT "lock you" into anything.

Your husband needs to do more learning of his own. Every unschooled
kid I know who's over the age of 18 has been working since BEFORE the
age of 18. Without a diploma, without a GED.

It would be MUCH easier for your husband to learn more than for you
to hinder and hamper your unschooling and your own family's peace and
uniqueness by trying to follow a curriculum to get a high school
diploma.

http://sandradodd.com/teens

http://sandradodd.com/teen

Sandra

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Gold Standard

>> He is the type of person who never wants to get rid of anything. ... He
has Asperger's Syndrome and has
a different way of looking at things than I or my husband do<<

My son is like this, and really, unschooling and having an accepting,
respectful, appreciative family, has saved his life. He has a completely
different outlook on the world than I do, thank bejesus. Boy would it be a
small world if it just worked the way I saw it (which I thought was the best
way until having kids, and he expanded that vision fifteen-fold).

Anyray.

He's 19 now. After many years of collecting with great emotional attachment
(not that he ever looked at any of the stuff for all the years...he just
didn't want to separate from it and have that loss), he began to want a
cleaner and clearer space in his room. And he began throwing things out and
giving things to other people. And he was able to give really cool gifts to
people! An old comic book here, an action figure there...mostly to younger
people who really dug them and were very excited!
And that was a great thing for Andrew to experience...giving meaningful
things.

The 6 years-worth of Halloween candy, each year still in its own bag or
pillow case, was tossed, none eaten. I didn't think that was ever going to
happen.

Now he still has a lot of stuff, though it appears to have more use and
meaning to him. He still keeps stuff too (movie tickets, concert tickets,
cards...he used to collect business cards and advertising cards everywhere
he went...he would get SO excited at seeing people's cards). He loves Reeds
Ginger Ale and his entire room is lined with rows of these green bottles. It
is really cool-looking! His "wants" seem more specific, and he finds a place
for what he wants in his room. It's a subtle difference, but there is more
maturity and discernment involved. It happened at his pace.

Respecting all your son's parts, even the parts that don't correlate with
your life vision, is important.

Try seeing his "oddities" as neat things that you never got to have as part
of your make-up. If its not hurting anyone or anything, then maybe it is a
gift! You never know where any part of your son's personality will lead. My
guy does incredibly cool performance art with instruments, poetry, comedy,
choreographed weirdness...he didn't give eye contact to most people for
YEARS, but he can humbly lead a whole audience through another dimension.

As far as making money is concerned...it really isn't different for your guy
than any other child...let him follow his passions and interests and see
where it leads. There will be opportunities.
Jacki

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

2. A recurring discussion between me and DH is the matter of a high
school diploma. My dh really doesn't want our children getting a
GED because of the poor reputation it has,

I have a GED. I also have a bachelor's degree in Anthropology from Minnesota State University at Mankato and a Master's degree from the University of New Mexico. Nobody cares that I have a GED, except me, maybe. It didn't hinder me in any way. There was no bias based on it's reputation. I was even offered a scholarship based on my GED score. It isn't an albatross around my neck.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com





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carnationsgalore

> Or, nowadays, kids who opted not to even go in at all. The
> reputation isn't what it used to be. Neither is the "value" of a
> high school diploma!

Okay, that is certainly true.

> Your husband needs to do more learning of his own. Every
> unschooled kid I know who's over the age of 18 has been working
> since BEFORE the age of 18. Without a diploma, without a GED.

My DH's concern is about the quality of jobs for a person without a
diploma. We know kids can get jobs at a grocery store, movie
theater, mall, etc. We're so used to thinking that when those kids
graduate and grow up, they generally move on to something else more
substantial. My DH thinks of a diploma as a key to open more
opportunities. A person with a diploma can still choose to work in
jobs that don't require a diploma, but a person without a diploma is
limited to just that one set of jobs. When we talk about this, we
can't find a way to think beyond it. We keep getting stuck at the
thought of the kids turning 30 years old with the same job prospects
as when they were 15 years old. Our personal experience with living
expenses just makes us cringe at the idea that our children will one
day be trying to pay for a car, house, family, etc. on a salary
meant for a teenager still in school.

My DH is open to new ideas. We discuss these things trying to work
through them. We'll look at the links you provided to see if that
helps us move forward with unschooling.

Beth

carnationsgalore

> His "wants" seem more specific, and he finds a place for what
> he wants in his room. It's a subtle difference, but there is more
> maturity and discernment involved. It happened at his pace.

Thanks Jacki, your post was very helpful. I suppose we're just at
the transition from little kid to teenager and he's got a foot in
both worlds. This past weekend, we reorganized his room into more
of a teen pad, as he called it. I asked him what 3 things he did
most in his room and he said computer, video games, and hot wheels
cars. He has a huge collection of Lego bricks and creations and
that didn't even make his top 3, though it's always been the top of
his list since he was 2. We worked together to get the room the way
he wanted it and that involved moving some stuff out and into the
attic. We live in a small house with no extra rooms and his bedroom
is really small. His solution to his space problem is for us to
move and that isn't an option. At the same time, even though he has
so much stuff, he spends alot of time on the computer researching
things he wants. For example, he really wants a Playstation 3 and I
just cannot afford one right now. He prints out lists and pictures
and shows them to us repeatedly throughout the day. I'm not sure
how to handle it. I feel guilty that I can't run out and buy him
the things he feels he needs. If I try to discuss the matter with
him, he ends up extremely angry so I try not to get into discussions
about those things.

Beth

carnationsgalore

> Nobody cares that I have a GED, except me, maybe. It didn't hinder
> me in any way. There was no bias based on it's reputation. I was
> even offered a scholarship based on my GED score. It isn't an
> albatross around my neck.

Thanks Schuyler, I'll share that with my DH. :)

Beth

Sandra Dodd

-=-He still keeps stuff too (movie tickets, concert tickets,
cards...he used to collect business cards and advertising cards
everywhere
he went...he would get SO excited at seeing people's cards).-=-

Holly keeps movie tickets. I came across one of my Star Wars tickets
from years ago. $3.50 to get in, I think it was. I have some of my
concert tickets, and of course wish I had them all, because (it being
60's and early 70's) I don't even remember who all I saw now. (eeep!
that drives Holly crazy!)

When I find my Donovan tickets, I'm definitely adding them to a
Donovan page I've started working on (because of Holly's interest).
http://sandradodd.com/donovan

I collect business cards. Not formally, I just have a stash of
them. I have a collection of post cards, too, but post cards I got
from people I know are usually filed with other things from them. So
if I die, tell my kids not to shovel the house out without mining it
for post cards and concert tickets!

-=-He loves Reeds Ginger Ale and his entire room is lined with rows
of these green bottles. It is really cool-looking!-=-

Oh my gosh this ties in with my house this week!

Holly let me crush-to-recycle the Red Bull cans she was saving. She
has done a fair amount of Red Bull art (people make things from the
cans, and some of the best stuff is on webpages), but I needed to
take her window out to trim vines away from it (it's upstairs).
And half an hour ago I was working in the yard, and filling up a
green plastic watering can from a hose in the sunlight, and thinking
I've seen few things as beautiful in my life as the way water looks,
moving and reflecting through green plastic. I was thinking of the
green corrugated fiberglass roof stuff so common when I was little,
and I thought people hundreds of years ago could never have seen
that. Maybe they saw rain running on the windows through green
stained glass, or through bottles, but not in the sunlight. They had
green glass bottles, though...

And now I came in here and read about a green glass collection!

-=-As far as making money is concerned...it really isn't different
for your guy than any other child...let him follow his passions and
interests and see where it leads. There will be opportunities.-=-

We didn't know Kirby would have a video game company job when he was
grown. He's been playing all kinds of games since he was little,
though. Nintendo since he was five. Board games and card games
longer. We didn't stop him, and that's where he went, and where he
is at the moment. Keith is doing his taxes for him. Keith is
impressed. Lots of overtime, the moving stipend, a raise...

Kirby makes way more money than I did the first year I was teaching,
even if my annual pay were to be adjusted for inflation. I had a
college degree and loans to repay. I think Kirby's making close to
what Keith started with when he first worked as an engineer when I
was pregnant with Kirby. Keith was 29 and had a BS degree.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I have a GED. I also have a bachelor's degree in Anthropology from
Minnesota State University at Mankato and a Master's degree from the
University of New Mexico. Nobody cares that I have a GED, except me,
maybe.-=-

Yay New Mexico!
Yay anthropology!

Schuyler, did you get the GED to apply to Minnesota State, or what?
The thing kids are doing here is going to the community college
(formerly TVI, now Central New Mexico Community College (yeah, way
too long) and then transferring to universities with their scores
from there.

Turning eighteen is WAY more useful than a GED or a high school
diploma around here nowadays. Turning eighteen and having job
experience already is even better.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-We know kids can get jobs at a grocery store, movie
theater, mall, etc. We're so used to thinking that when those kids
graduate and grow up, they generally move on to something else more
substantial. -=-

You're used to thinking about schoolkids.

One of the wealthiest unschooling families I know (at least the
family with the best house <g>), the dad was a regional manager for a
grocery store chain. He started working there as a teen and kept
getting promoted.

-=-A person with a diploma can still choose to work in jobs that
don't require a diploma, but a person without a diploma is limited to
just that one set of jobs. -=-

As an aid to your thinking, since you've asked for assistance,
anytime you use the word "just," stop and think very carefully. It's
a door-slamming word. It's a word that limits thought, and people
don't even know they're doing it to themselves.

Do you want to name that "one set of jobs"?

There are people with diplomas who don't want to work in the field
they studied, or the degree they got isn't useful all by itself,
except in cases where any old degree is fine. There are jobs working
for the state of New Mexico, for example, for which a person has to
have a college diploma. They don't care WHAT the degree is. It
could be pottery or psychology or math, what the job is is working in
an administrative position.

Some college degrees are known in advance to be worthless in the
field unless the person goes on to get a master's or PhD.
Psychology. A BA in psychology is good only for getting into a
master's program BUT you can get into the master's program with a
degree in pottery or math or English. You can probably think of
other examples.

PhDs---some are only good for teaching at a university.

-=-My DH is open to new ideas. We discuss these things trying to
work through them.-=-

Stop discussing them. You're both working with so limited a set of
information that you're wasting time and energy you could be spending
with your family.

Sandra




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Sandra Dodd

-=-I suppose we're just at
the transition from little kid to teenager and he's got a foot in
both worlds. -=-

"Just."

First of all, the idea of such transitions is counterproductive to
seeing him as a whole, full person. Second, they're not two worlds.
We're all in the same world, in unschooling. Your thinking involves
false worlds and divisions and transitions and teenage incomes and
adult incomes for high school graduates as a separate category
entirely from incomes for homeschoolers and dropouts (which you've
put into the same category).

-=-His solution to his space problem is for us to move and that isn't
an option.-=-

I realize that it might not be an option, but I would like to suggest
that the odds are that it is an option.

If you have more children would you move? If that house were flooded
or caught fire would you move? If the non-option has to do with
inherited family home, what about adding on? If your child were
handicapped and you needed to change the house to get equipment in
and out, would you?

It's easy to say no. It's easy to say "can't."

-=-he really wants a Playstation 3 and I just cannot afford one right
now.-=-

What expenses would he have if he were in school that he doesn't have
because he's at home? Those expenses should go back into his
educational concerns. Unschooling should NOT be less expensive than
government schooling.

-=-I feel guilty that I can't run out and buy him the things he feels
he needs. -=-

Try to take this well. You did ask us for help. I'm going to
comment after I quote the line you wrote after it.

-=-If I try to discuss the matter with him, he ends up extremely
angry -=-

I'm going to suggest something that might be making him angry. The
way you chose to phrase what you told us (strangers, but strangers
who are willing to try to help you for free, so don't get cranky at
me here) is revealing.

Here's what you have inadvertently revealed: You don't think he
needs those things. You think people who do buy things for their
children "just run out and buy them." You're feeling virtuous (or
justified, or defensive; not sure) about not running out and buying
him things he doesn't need anyway.

You want us to help you feel you're doing the right thing.

It's possible you could change the way you see his requests.

Sandra
















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emvalschool

One of my sons started working at a sandwich shop when he was 14. He saved a few
thousand dollars and when he was 23 opened a small but very unusual bike shop (he's
been passionate about bikes since he was 5 and always entrepreneurial). Now, 10 years
later, his shop takes up much of the block it's on and last year grossed 2.5 million dollars.
He supports his family very well. It is not true that one needs to have a GED or a college
degree to make money. Another son of mine does not have a high school diploma but
decided to go to university because what he wants to do requires a degree. He didn't start
college until he was 23 because until then he had no real reason to. It seems to me that
people who are deeply connected to themselves and know what they need will at the right
time do what they have to do and get what they need to get in order to create the life of
their dreams.

> -=-I have a GED. I also have a bachelor's degree in Anthropology from
> Minnesota State University at Mankato and a Master's degree from the
> University of New Mexico. Nobody cares that I have a GED, except me,
> maybe.-=-
>
> Yay New Mexico!
> Yay anthropology!
>
> Schuyler, did you get the GED to apply to Minnesota State, or what?
> The thing kids are doing here is going to the community college
> (formerly TVI, now Central New Mexico Community College (yeah, way
> too long) and then transferring to universities with their scores
> from there.
>
> Turning eighteen is WAY more useful than a GED or a high school
> diploma around here nowadays. Turning eighteen and having job
> experience already is even better.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

jenstarc4

We're so used to thinking that when those kids
> graduate and grow up, they generally move on to something else more
> substantial. My DH thinks of a diploma as a key to open more
> opportunities. A person with a diploma can still choose to work in
> jobs that don't require a diploma, but a person without a diploma
is
> limited to just that one set of jobs.

I don't find this to be true at all. Jobs are related to knowledge
base and work ethic. Anyone with a high school diploma may have a
piece of paper, but that doesn't gaurantee a good knowledge base or a
good work ethic. A kid that is homeschooled can work at a place of
interest and acquire knowledge and be a good worker. Good workers
don't stay in low positions, they move up.

Kids that unschool, do what they need to do to get what they want.
That is how it works. Working in a low paying job may not be a bad
thing either. I've known people that take on those kind of jobs,
simply because they don't have to invest their all in it, they can do
their job with little drain on them, then do the other things they
love to do. A job can be just a source of income and as long as it
provides what a person needs there is nothing wrong with that.

Once a job doesn't provide what a person needs, get a different
better one.

My oldest daughter is about to turn 14, the legal age that she can
work where we live. She is extremely excited about that. I have no
doubt in my mind that she will be a good employee and be fully
competent in whatever job she does. We've been talking about this
same stuff lately. She has never been to school, nor does she plan
on it. She's considered taking a college course or 2. Once she
takes a college course, that trumps high school diploma.

High school dimplomas don't mean a whole lot anymore with more and
more people going to college.

MrsStranahan

My 15 year old stepson does not have a GED. His mom had the same
concerns as your husband about him getting one. She looked into
options she thought sounded better and decided he should get a CHSPE
(http://www.chspe.net/). He hasn't done that yet.

In the meantime he got a job working for the guy who created The Lion
King making more than any entry position I've ever heard of. He's
working right now, from the back bedroom with no ged, chspe or
diploma.

Lauren

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:34 AM, carnationsgalore
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
> My DH's concern is about the quality of jobs for a person without a
> diploma. We know kids can get jobs at a grocery store, movie
> theater, mall, etc. We're so used to thinking that when those kids
> graduate and grow up, they generally move on to something else more
> substantial. My DH thinks of a diploma as a key to open more
> opportunities. A person with a diploma can still choose to work in
> jobs that don't require a diploma, but a person without a diploma is
> limited to just that one set of jobs. When we talk about this, we
> can't find a way to think beyond it. We keep getting stuck at the
> thought of the kids turning 30 years old with the same job prospects
> as when they were 15 years old.

jenstarc4

His solution to his space problem is for us to
> move and that isn't an option.

For example, he really wants a Playstation 3 and I
> just cannot afford one right now. He prints out lists and pictures
> and shows them to us repeatedly throughout the day. I'm not sure
> how to handle it. I feel guilty that I can't run out and buy him
> the things he feels he needs. If I try to discuss the matter with
> him, he ends up extremely angry so I try not to get into
discussions
> about those things.
>
> Beth
>

Why isn't it an option to move? Don't answer that question on list
if you don't want to. Sometimes there are legitimate reasons to not
be able to move, like leases and such. My experience says that if
there is a will there is a way. The world is FULL of options,
unlimited.

As to the playstation 3 issue... Why not save money for it. Put one
of his pictures on a jar and start putting money in it. One quart
sized mason jar full of pennies is about $10. Add nickels, dimes,
quarters, dollar bills, maybe even a fiver here and there. Make
different choices at the grocery store. Buy the generic and put the
difference in his jar. Give an option of buying one or two boxes of
cookies and put the difference in the jar. The world is made up of
little choices that you can act on to positively effect his world.

Once it is full, cash it in and put the larger bill in it and start
adding more. It could take months for it to grow and he may outgrow
is desire for the ps3, but it's more about the thought and the
willingness to honor his needs and his wishes. If he wants to use
the cash for something else sooner, let him.

All discussions about the ps3 can be positive and cool and you guys
can count the money often and think about it and wonder how long it
will take. Be excited about it. Be proactive about his desires. It
really is a key element in unschooling. Finding positive ways to
honor your child's desires not only creates a positive relationship,
it shows him how to find creative ways to problem solve.

Nicole Willoughby

We keep getting stuck at the
> thought of the kids turning 30 years old with the same job prospects
> as when they were 15 years old.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Im ehm over 30 . I went to nursing school about 15 years ago but its been years since Ive worked at any paying job. Since I havent been licensed in years here in tx id pretty much have to go do a lot of coursework over again if I wanted to become a nurse. In some ways through age which implies maturity most of the time in society and experience through volunteer work and such my chances are slightly better . In other ways because of age and have not had a paying job in years my chances are worse than a 15 yr old.

I throughly enjoy my non paying job :) and dont plan on leaving anytime soon .

IF I HAD to though the college doors are open .....if i were to go get a 4 year degree it would likely be forst 2 years at a jr college but most ppl pay attention to where you graduated from a lot more than where you went your first year.

One of my children has a lot of medical expenses . We recently started making $160 a month to much to qualify for medicaid . Suddenly we have aprox $2000 a month in expenses we have to come up with because he is making $160 a month more ..........so more money dosent always benefit you :)




---------------------------------
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Sandra Dodd

-=-I throughly enjoy my non paying job :) and dont plan on leaving
anytime soon . -=-

Keith doesn't enjoy his paying job as much as I enjoy my non-paying
one! My kids are all almost grown, and I'm doing this missionary/
volunteer work, helping other parents unschool and be nice parents
and happy parents. At some point I guess I ought to get a real job,
but while I've been helping my kids grow up to be productive people,
I've gotten old! Maybe nobody will hire someone in her 50's. My
degree is older than some of you are.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

>
> -=-I suppose we're just at
> the transition from little kid to teenager and he's got a foot in
> both worlds. -=-
>
> "Just."
>
> First of all, the idea of such transitions is counterproductive to
> seeing him as a whole, full person. Second, they're not two worlds.
> We're all in the same world, in unschooling.

I meant to leave a link with that, something I just wrote this week:

http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/03/whole-and-real-mature-or-immature.html

carnationsgalore

> First of all, the idea of such transitions is counterproductive
> to seeing him as a whole, full person.

Yes, I do see that I'm lumping alot of things together that I
shouldn't be putting together. The reason I'm calling his growing a
transition is because I see and hear the changes in him that make
him seem more grown up. I know he's a whole person, always has been
and always will be. I also know that he's been growing since
conception. I used to look at him and see a little boy. Lately,
I'm seeing more of a young man.

> I realize that it might not be an option, but I would like to
> suggest that the odds are that it is an option.

Yes, I used a poor choice of words. Of course moving is an option
but my DH and I are not prepared for all that comes with selling and
buying houses. We have the other children to consider, one of which
wants to stay in this house until she graduates. Then there are all
the other excuses such as updating the house, trying to sell at a
bad time and probably not having any money left over from the
purchase to use as a down payment on the next one. We have talked
about moving in the summer of 2010 when dd15 graduates high school.
This doesn't help the immediate situation though.

> If you have more children would you move?

Not until the child needed the space. I'd have the baby in with me
IF that were even an option. DH had a vasectomy 10 years ago and I
haven't yet been lucky enough for it to fail. :)

> If that house were flooded or caught fire would you move?

Yes because the insurance would cover it which isn't an option in
the current situation.

> If the non-option has to do with inherited family home, what about
> adding on?

Now this we have seriously considered. We have a very large garage
that we thought about converting into livable space. Jeffrey, our
ds11, said he would only use it if it was professionally finished
with real walls, carpet and a ceiling. It would require taking out
a second mortgage. We don't feel that is a sound financial decision
right now.

> If your child were handicapped and you needed to change the house
> to get equipment in and out, would you?

Again, insurance would cover that. And if it didn't, we'd surely
take out a 2nd mortgage because the changes would mean something to
the quality of life for the disabled person.

> It's easy to say no. It's easy to say "can't."

Yes it is, and I know that all my reasons above for not being able
to do this or that seem like easy excuses. We don't see them as
easy though. Would unschooling, non-coercive parents truly make
decisions that put the family into major debt to give a child
everything he desires? Taking a 2nd mortgage to finish that garage
would be a major debt. Also, are we wrong in thinking that another
game system is not the best use of the family money when we have
other expenses to pay? I'd be happy to forego a family vacation
this year in lieu of buying a new game system but the kids would
likely be upset as they enjoy family vacations. Which, btw, we are
still paying off our last vacation to visit the inlaws in Wisconsin
last December.

> What expenses would he have if he were in school that he doesn't
> have because he's at home? Those expenses should go back into
> his educational concerns. Unschooling should NOT be less
> expensive than government schooling.

But we can only spend money once. We've already paid more than
normal expenses incurred with being in school. When I do have extra
money, I am glad to take him to Gamestop, his favorite store, to buy
a new video game. He does not like to save money. He gets easily
frustrated and will spend anything he's saved just to have something
new. I did ask him about starting a saving jar for the Playstation
3. When we have extra money, it can go into the jar and when we
save enough, we can buy the system. He doesn't want to do that
because it will take too long to save. Isn't this a maturity issue?

> Try to take this well. You did ask us for help.

Yes, and I am truly listening to what you are saying. I do want
help in looking at these issues from a different standpoint. I'm
not crying or upset.

> Here's what you have inadvertently revealed: You don't think he
> needs those things. You think people who do buy things for their
> children "just run out and buy them." You're feeling virtuous
> (or justified, or defensive; not sure) about not running out and
> buying him things he doesn't need anyway.

Yes, I completely agree I don't feel he needs those things. There
is a big difference between needs and wants. Every one of us in
this family has a list of things we want. How do we determine who's
wants are more important? If I were to provide everything they
wanted, I'd run our Visa up several thousand dollars in one day
easily. If I add the things I want and my DH want, we'd likely go
up another couple of thousand dollars. Am I wrong in thinking that
the children need to understand that we simply cannot have whatever
we want whenever we want it? If that is the real world, them I'm in
the wrong place! *laugh*

I do not think people just run out and buy things that I can't do.
I am saying that my son wants what he wants when he wants it and
anything less than immediate gratification will not satisfy him.
This is the child who asked for a Playstation 2 for months and when
we finally got one, he was asking for a Playstation 3 the very next
day. And remember, he doesn't like letting things go. He doesn't
understand why he can't have both systems right now. In other
words, he obsesses about something until he gets it and then he
moves his obsession onto something else. He does act happy that he
has the new thing but he doesn't feel satisfied and content because
there are so many more things he wants.

> You want us to help you feel you're doing the right thing.

No. I want y'all to help me look at these things the way y'all do.
It's almost like I'm looking through hazy glass. I can sort of make
out what is there, but it's not crystal clear. :)

> It's possible you could change the way you see his requests.

I see his requests as being perfectly reasonable, honestly. But how
do I truly give him what he wants when I absolutely do not have the
money? Or what if I did have some money? What if I had $500 right
now today. Why is his want of a Playstation 3 greater than than the
clothes my dd15 needs for her spring break trip with her best
friend?

I hope I'm speaking clearly. I swear I do not intend any of this
with a whiny tone. Maybe I'll print this out and take it with me to
Wendy's house tomorrow (unschooling family) and maybe she can help
me see things from a different perspective.

Oh, and I did talk with the kids earlier today about the possibility
of my getting a part-time job to help earn spending money. Jeffrey
absolutely hated the idea. He doesn't want me working outside the
home. The girls didn't care one way or the other.

Beth M.

Sandra Dodd

-=-> If your child were handicapped and you needed to change the house
> to get equipment in and out, would you?

-=-Again, insurance would cover that. And if it didn't, we'd surely
take out a 2nd mortgage because the changes would mean something to
the quality of life for the disabled person.-=-



Very often questions asked on this list are hypothetical--more for
the poster to consider than to 'fess up to or detail out.

As you chose to answer, though, I get to point at it. "because the
changes would mean something to the quality of life for the disabled
person."

Maybe quality of life is just as important to other kids too.

-=-He doesn't want to do that because it will take too long to save.
Isn't this a maturity issue?-=-

Could be a personality issue. But what if it's a maturity issue?

-=-There is a big difference between needs and wants.-=-

Not with babies there isn't. When do you think it changes?

If a child wants something the parents deem him not to need, it seems
the need is real. Unmet needs make people want things. I'm
surprised at the things my kids don't want. I offered to buy Holly a
new pair of Vans last week and she said no, it was fine. And it
wasn't any surly-girl hateful "No, it's fine." It was cheerful. Her
old Vans are wearing out. She said if they went, though, she'd just
go to PayLess. Would kids of needy children even believe such a
think could be possible? Does she "need" Vans? Did she ever? I got
her some last year and she's worn them just about every day. She
didn't need them then and she doesn't need replacements.

-=-Every one of us in this family has a list of things we want. How
do we determine who's wants are more important?-=-

What I want is to be a really good parents. There are no overs. One
shot with each kid. He'll never be the age he is again. What you do
now is what you do.

-=-Would unschooling, non-coercive parents truly make decisions that
put the family into major debt to give a child everything he desires?
-=-

This is not a "non coercive parenting list." Don't muddy the waters,
please. That's a specific organization and they don't discuss their
children.

You're doing that emotional revelation thing again. "Everything he
desires" is a loaded phrase. I think any compassionate parent with
a frustrated child should consider going a little into debt to give
him some of the things he desires.

The less you give him, the needier he will be.

-=-Am I wrong in thinking that the children need to understand that
we simply cannot have whatever we want whenever we want it? -=-

No one made that recommendation. Please try not to ask your questions
in such ways that you insult those who are trying to help. And it
might help more for you to go back through and read again, and read
all the links people brought (or maybe I'm the only one who brought
links, but they're to many people's writings). Maybe let some of
this soak in and then see what questions you still have.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> I don't find this to be true at all. Jobs are related to
> knowledge base and work ethic. Anyone with a high school diploma
> may have a piece of paper, but that doesn't gaurantee a good
> knowledge base or a good work ethic.

If you do not have a diploma of any kind, how do you answer the
question on a job application that asks for your education? Every
application I've ever seen also asks if you've graduated from high
school, if not when will you, or have you earned your GED.

I'm not saying it isn't possible because obviously it is. Yet, I've
been in jobs where I've seen applications rejected because of a lack
of education and experience.

> High school dimplomas don't mean a whole lot anymore with more and
> more people going to college.

What about the people who don't want to go to college? Your note
seems to say that a high school diploma isn't needed if one goes to
college. But what about one who doesn't go?

Beth M.

graberamy

-=-He loves Reeds Ginger Ale and his entire room is lined with rows
> of these green bottles. It is really cool-looking!-=

> I've seen few things as beautiful in my life as the way water looks,
> moving and reflecting through green plastic. >

I'm not sure if this link works here, but I remember someone sent me
this and I thought it was cool (funny the originator describes it as
"ugly") :

http://ugly-christmas-trees.com/trees/beer-bottle/beer-bottle-tree.jpg

I was thinking if your son likes to collect things maybe a creative way
to display his collections might be fun for him??

This post reminded me that I've saved a bunch of bottles and want to put
a bottle tree in the front yard (I hear they're popular in the south),
but dh doesn't really like the idea. I think he thinks the neighbors
will think we drink too much!!lol We have an old pine that's really
getting overgrown and I'd love to trim it down to the trunk! I love
blue bottles!! Maybe he'd go for doing it in the backyard? hmmm

http://www.tynant.com/images/bottletree01.jpg

Sorry if the links don't work and you don't know what I'm talking about!

My hubby also has all his old albums from high school and I think it
would be really cool to wall paper a wall with them! He has also saved
every ticket from every concert he's been to. It would be cool to
display that somehow!

amy g
iowa


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-He still keeps stuff too (movie tickets, concert tickets,
> cards...he used to collect business cards and advertising cards
> everywhere
> he went...he would get SO excited at seeing people's cards).-=-
>
> Holly keeps movie tickets. I came across one of my Star Wars tickets
> from years ago. $3.50 to get in, I think it was. I have some of my
> concert tickets, and of course wish I had them all, because (it being
> 60's and early 70's) I don't even remember who all I saw now. (eeep!
> that drives Holly crazy!)
>
> When I find my Donovan tickets, I'm definitely adding them to a
> Donovan page I've started working on (because of Holly's interest).
> http://sandradodd.com/donovan
>
> I collect business cards. Not formally, I just have a stash of
> them. I have a collection of post cards, too, but post cards I got
> from people I know are usually filed with other things from them. So
> if I die, tell my kids not to shovel the house out without mining it
> for post cards and concert tickets!
>
>-
>
> Oh my gosh this ties in with my house this week!
>
> Holly let me crush-to-recycle the Red Bull cans she was saving. She
> has done a fair amount of Red Bull art (people make things from the
> cans, and some of the best stuff is on webpages), but I needed to
> take her window out to trim vines away from it (it's upstairs).
> And half an hour ago I was working in the yard, and filling up a
> green plastic watering can from a hose in the sunlight, and thinking
I was thinking of the
> green corrugated fiberglass roof stuff so common when I was little,
> and I thought people hundreds of years ago could never have seen
> that. Maybe they saw rain running on the windows through green
> stained glass, or through bottles, but not in the sunlight. They had
> green glass bottles, though...
>
> And now I came in here and read about a green glass collection!
>
> -=-As far as making money is concerned...it really isn't different
> for your guy than any other child...let him follow his passions and
> interests and see where it leads. There will be opportunities.-=-
>
> We didn't know Kirby would have a video game company job when he was
> grown. He's been playing all kinds of games since he was little,
> though. Nintendo since he was five. Board games and card games
> longer. We didn't stop him, and that's where he went, and where he
> is at the moment. Keith is doing his taxes for him. Keith is
> impressed. Lots of overtime, the moving stipend, a raise...
>
> Kirby makes way more money than I did the first year I was teaching,
> even if my annual pay were to be adjusted for inflation. I had a
> college degree and loans to repay. I think Kirby's making close to
> what Keith started with when he first worked as an engineer when I
> was pregnant with Kirby. Keith was 29 and had a BS degree.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> As you chose to answer, though, I get to point at it. "because
> the changes would mean something to the quality of life for the
> disabled person."

Yes, that is why I answered each question. I did want an opinion on
my thinking processes.

> Maybe quality of life is just as important to other kids too.

Yes I see your point. I have been trying to make changes in my
thinking about money. I don't want to end up like my mother. She
and her husband are so in debt that they can't do all the things
they want. So they do them anyway using credit cards. My mom's
theory is that they can't squeeze her for money when she's dead so
she's going to enjoy life while she can and pay the minimums on all
her cards. I just can't do that. It is ethically wrong. It's
stealing but she doesn't agree with me. She living a quality life
because she only has one life to live.

> Maybe let some of this soak in and then see what questions you
> still have.

Yeah, I will. Thanks.

Beth

graberamy

I would recommend to my children that they just simply write that they
were homeschooled.

My neighbor is a recruiter for Drake University and she told me they
seek out homeschoolers, that they love how self motivated most of them
are. I don't think they ask if they have a diploma or a ged...a lot
of homeschoolers do not have one.

I would think if colleges are seeking homeschoolers than perhaps
employers are too, for the very seem reasons??

amy g
iowa

--- In [email protected], "carnationsgalore"
<addled.homemaker@...> wrote:
>
> > I don't find this to be true at all. Jobs are related to
> > knowledge base and work ethic. Anyone with a high school diploma
> > may have a piece of paper, but that doesn't gaurantee a good
> > knowledge base or a good work ethic.
>

>
> I'm not saying it isn't possible because obviously it is. Yet, I've
> been in jobs where I've seen applications rejected because of a lack
> of education and experience.
>
> > High school dimplomas don't mean a whole lot anymore with more and
> > more people going to college.
>
> What about the people who don't want to go to college? Your note
> seems to say that a high school diploma isn't needed if one goes to
> college. But what about one who doesn't go?
>
> Beth M.
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 13, 2008, at 6:48 PM, carnationsgalore wrote:

> If you do not have a diploma of any kind, how do you answer the
> question on a job application that asks for your education?


Homeschooled.

Yes, really :-) It's legal in all 50 states.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-If you do not have a diploma of any kind, how do you answer the
question on a job application that asks for your education? -=-

I already said somewhere in this conversation that my kids write
"homeschooled."



Marty did an online application and said "yes," because he didn't
drop out of homeschooling. If he goes for an interview, he'll
explain that to them.

-=-What about the people who don't want to go to college? Your note
seems to say that a high school diploma isn't needed if one goes to
college. But what about one who doesn't go?-=-

You son is eleven years old, right?

You could put him in school, free. (Almost free; they'll want money
for uniforms and supplies and field trips and deposits all the time,
and you'll have to buy the supplies they ask for.) If you put him
in school, he'll end up with a diploma.

If the diploma is so important to you and your husband, put him in
school!

If you're not going to put him in school, would you *please* (please)
read all the links I've sent about teens who have had jobs?

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-She living a quality life
because she only has one life to live.-=-

How many lives does your son have?



So you can't do everything you want to do because you won't go into
debt and your mom can't do all the things she wants to do because she
IS in debt?

It sounds like you're seeing lots of cups half empty, and life half
empty and your son's future half empty.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm not sure if this link works here, but I remember someone sent me
this and I thought it was cool (funny the originator describes it as
"ugly") :

http://ugly-christmas-trees.com/trees/beer-bottle/beer-bottle-
tree.jpg-=-



As a Christmas tree, it's not gorgeous.

As a stack of green bottles in a window with the sun behind them,
it's stunning!!

I can respond with two posts about seeing beauty in everyday things:

http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2007/09/finding-beauty.html

http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2008/02/very-brief-tour-of-my-back-
yard.html



Sandra

jenstarc4

I'd be happy to forego a family vacation
> this year in lieu of buying a new game system but the kids would
> likely be upset as they enjoy family vacations. Which, btw, we are
> still paying off our last vacation to visit the inlaws in Wisconsin
> last December.

That isn't the only choice though. It's not ever one or the other,
it's this or this or this or this...

Family vacations don't have to be big and expensive and they don't
have to be that or nothing else. You can buy a used system and
something else that another child wants and go on a small vacation.

>
I did ask him about starting a saving jar for the Playstation
> 3. When we have extra money, it can go into the jar and when we
> save enough, we can buy the system. He doesn't want to do that
> because it will take too long to save. Isn't this a maturity issue?
>

You could still start one and see it grow, and it might inspire him.
It's not about when you have extra money to put into it. Put
something in it everyday, even if its a dime.

The garage doesn't have to be completely remodeled to make a cool and
inviting space to put extra toys and such. It's not a place that
anyone has to sleep in, it could be a space to hang out in. It could
be a corner with a divider and a carpet and shelves and chairs and
such. Any space can be inviting and usable if you make it such.

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<< He has also saved
> every ticket from every concert he's been to. It would be cool to
> display that somehow! >>>

Decoupage something with them, like a trunk or a table, or even a door or
wall.

Martha Stewart, a few years ago, did big (poster sized) framed artwork where
she had small ephemera like tickets enlarged hugely and arranged on a mat.
There would be three or four items in each frame and then she lined up the
frames.

Or use frames for the album covers and decoupage the tickets on to the
frames.

Other people have used paper items in journal quilts doing things like
making gauze pockets or sewing through the paper. This would be wall hanging
type quilts.

Make them into double sided book marks by laminating some together.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com