Nicole Willoughby

We had the neighbor boys over to play today. 4. ages 4-8 , then mine 4-7. They all had a great time. Played with toys, we made homemade bubble solution and bent wire coat hangers to make wands. Came in and had snacks then went back to our bedroom so they could jump on the bed and play gamecube on the bug tv.
Dad came over telling them it was time to clean up and head home and I suggested they have just a little time to finish up their sonic game. So he left and they finished up and headed home.
5 minutes later mom comes dragging them back over . She says Ive brought them back over to help you clean up they shouldnt be leaving a mess for you like this. I tell her no its fine , I dont make kids clean up . She says well I do they have to learn . back and forth, etc .
So I ended up suggesting they pick up as many toys as they are old.

A good number of kids are off at daycare and we dont have visitors that often;

How do you handle it ?

Respect the parents wishes and ask them to clean?
Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about trivial things like making kids clean?
Keep sending them home without cleaning and maybe mom will just let it go?

OR?


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jen mobley

why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys? Don't you
feel like a maid?


>From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] how to handle cleaning ( or not ) with other
>peoples kids
>Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT)
>
>We had the neighbor boys over to play today. 4. ages 4-8 , then mine 4-7.
>They all had a great time. Played with toys, we made homemade bubble
>solution and bent wire coat hangers to make wands. Came in and had snacks
>then went back to our bedroom so they could jump on the bed and play
>gamecube on the bug tv.
> Dad came over telling them it was time to clean up and head home and I
>suggested they have just a little time to finish up their sonic game. So he
>left and they finished up and headed home.
> 5 minutes later mom comes dragging them back over . She says Ive brought
>them back over to help you clean up they shouldnt be leaving a mess for you
>like this. I tell her no its fine , I dont make kids clean up . She says
>well I do they have to learn . back and forth, etc .
> So I ended up suggesting they pick up as many toys as they are old.
>
> A good number of kids are off at daycare and we dont have visitors that
>often;
>
> How do you handle it ?
>
> Respect the parents wishes and ask them to clean?
> Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about trivial
>things like making kids clean?
> Keep sending them home without cleaning and maybe mom will just let it
>go?
>
> OR?
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Be a PS3 game guru.
>Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
>Games.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Sandra Dodd

-=-why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys?
Don't you
feel like a maid?-==

What do you feel like if you DO "make them" clean up toys?
What do they feel like?

Phrases like "feel like a maid" can get in the way of seeing clearly
what will help learning and what will model compassion.

Here are some other examples of such phrases that people say because
others have said them:
http://sandradodd.com/phrases

http://sandradodd.com/chores

Lots of the best of the past few years' writings are there, and Joyce
has some really clear explanations here: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Sandra

huntmom1996

***How do you handle it? ***

I have been in this situation. Children come over to our house a lot,
as my children prefer playdates here. I think it gets easier as the
children get older, as I can't imagine any of my dd's 10 year old and
up friends being asked if they "cleaned up", but sometimes I think they
are asked if they watched tv all day or played video games. At least
that happens in the car on the way home :)

For us, I haven't hit upon that perfect solution. Sometimes I meet the
moms outside, with an "Oh, yeah, they picked up what they played with!
See you later!" Or I straighten up myself. But, I have plenty to do
to love and care for and raise my own children. If another mom is in
my home treating her children a certain way I don't agree with (but is
not harmful), that is part of having guests.

It is kind of like having a dinner guest over. If she drinks way too
much everytime, I would mention something to her about her lifestyle in
private, alone. I would, because our family is uncomfortable around a
lot of drinking, probably stop inviting her.

If she just has a couple of glasses of wine to my one, doesn't drive
home, etc, I would probably not really encourage the relationship
because of my families needs and desires about drinking, but I would
not try to encourage a change in the person.

Peace~Jessica

Nicole Willoughby

why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys?
Don't you
feel like a maid?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

*laughs* This is not the first time Ive been asked this question but first time on an unschooling list.

I suppose I could choose to feel like a maid :).

My 7 year old dd helps take care of my 5 year old little boy who has severe autism while I do things like take a 5 minute shower. She washes dishes for me ...not because its an assigned chore but because she likes the running water and warm water on her hands. She sweeps floors for me just because she likes to help. My 4 year old often gets a wet rag and announces Im gonna clean momma!
Lots of small toys are very overwhelming esp when you have a brother who constantly dumps all the bins out all over the floor. So yes I clean up after them and I do it without any expectations yet I get so much in return.

i dont consider myself a maid. I consider myself a very lucky mom .

nicole


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Meredith

--- In [email protected], Nicole Willoughby
<cncnawilloughby@...> wrote:
>> How do you handle it ?
> Respect the parents wishes and ask them to clean?
> Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about
trivial things like making kids clean?
> Keep sending them home without cleaning and maybe mom will just
let it go?

We mostly play in others' homes but I've run into similar
situations. I work on creating open dialog with the other family
about rules and expectations and coming to a mutually acceptible
agreement regarding clean-up.

The hardest situation I've been in is with a long-time girlfriend
who was very insistent at one point that *I* shouldn't help the kids
clean up. At that point we switched to only getting together for
outside play for several weeks. During that time I talked with
Morgan off and on about my friend and her issues around cleaning -
Mo's not a tremendous talker, so we had to do this in itty bitty
bits, but over time she and I came up with some options for playing
in ways and rooms that didn't involve a lot of "mess".

At the same time my gf and I would toss suggestions and ideas and
theories back and forth to one another every time we got together -
at first we would even say things like "this is just brainstorming,
I'm not attatched to the idea, what are your thoughts?" That let us
express our concerns to one another in a non-confrontational way,
and eventually find some solutions that work for both our families.

> Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about
>trivial things like making kids clean?

The way I found to phrase this was "We do things Really Differently
in our family". I have also found it helps, when talking about
asking others to clean at my house, to state that clean-up-time is
really stressful for *me* - moreso than having to clean up the mess
later on my own. That re-frames the issue in terms of courtesy and
helpfulness, rather than "teaching the kids a lesson".

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

jen mobley

I guess it would be taken seriously if I said that I didn't mean that in a
harsh way...it's just that I don't understand missing out on teaching kids
the value of hard work and respect for their things and the house overall.


>From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] how to handle cleaning ( or not ) with other
>peoples kids
>Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 06:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
>
>why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys?
>Don't you
>feel like a maid?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> *laughs* This is not the first time Ive been asked this question but
>first time on an unschooling list.
>
> I suppose I could choose to feel like a maid :).
>
> My 7 year old dd helps take care of my 5 year old little boy who has
>severe autism while I do things like take a 5 minute shower. She washes
>dishes for me ...not because its an assigned chore but because she likes
>the running water and warm water on her hands. She sweeps floors for me
>just because she likes to help. My 4 year old often gets a wet rag and
>announces Im gonna clean momma!
> Lots of small toys are very overwhelming esp when you have a brother who
>constantly dumps all the bins out all over the floor. So yes I clean up
>after them and I do it without any expectations yet I get so much in
>return.
>
> i dont consider myself a maid. I consider myself a very lucky mom .
>
> nicole
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
>Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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jen mobley

whatever sandra...If that's how you wish to spend your time. I would rather
teach my kids respect for their toys and belongings. Suit yourself.


>From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] how to handle cleaning ( or not ) with other
>peoples kids
>Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 20:39:52 -0600
>
>-=-why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys?
>Don't you
>feel like a maid?-==
>
>What do you feel like if you DO "make them" clean up toys?
>What do they feel like?
>
>Phrases like "feel like a maid" can get in the way of seeing clearly
>what will help learning and what will model compassion.
>
>Here are some other examples of such phrases that people say because
>others have said them:
>http://sandradodd.com/phrases
>
>http://sandradodd.com/chores
>
>Lots of the best of the past few years' writings are there, and Joyce
>has some really clear explanations here: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
>
>Sandra
>

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't understand missing out on teaching kids
the value of hard work and respect for their things and the house
overall.-=-

My kids take good care of their things, and other people's things.

Unschooling is based on not teaching kids, but on finding
opportunties for them to learn.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-whatever sandra...If that's how you wish to spend your time. I
would rather
teach my kids respect for their toys and belongings. Suit yourself.-=-

"Whatever" isn't a nice thing to write.

And for the purposes of this list, it's better to address the group,
as though sitting at a table brainstorming, than to address an
individual. It's a big group, not a little social group and not a
dialog.

If you would rather teach your children than to examine how learning
can happen without teaching, this is probably not a list you'll be
very happy on.

Sandra

Cally Brown

I introduced 2 teenage boys to the art of lying by telling the truth.
When she picked them up from my place, their mother asked if they had
helped with the dishes. I could see the panic in the boys faces dissolve
into astonishment when I replied that both of them had done everything I
had asked them. As someone who has chore lists for everything, and is
constantly asking her kids to open a window, fetch a glass of water,
pick something up etc etc, even when it is within her reach and they are
on the other side of the room involved in something else - it never
occurred to her that I might not have asked her boys to do anything at
all!! So she was happy, and the boys, they'd a break - and er, well, er,
they had, er, learned a new 'skill'!

Cally

huntmom1996 wrote:
> ***How do you handle it? ***
>
> I have been in this situation. Children come over to our house a lot,
> as my children prefer playdates here. I think it gets easier as the
> children get older, as I can't imagine any of my dd's 10 year old and
> up friends being asked if they "cleaned up", but sometimes I think they
> are asked if they watched tv all day or played video games. At least
> that happens in the car on the way home :)
>
> For us, I haven't hit upon that perfect solution. Sometimes I meet the
> moms outside, with an "Oh, yeah, they picked up what they played with!
> See you later!" Or I straighten up myself. But, I have plenty to do
> to love and care for and raise my own children. If another mom is in
> my home treating her children a certain way I don't agree with (but is
> not harmful), that is part of having guests.
>

Nicole Willoughby

Thanks! I really like that :) Im gonna steal it and use it :)

Nicole


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Nicole Willoughby

it's just that I don't understand missing out on teaching kids
the value of hard work and respect for their things and the house overall.>>>>>>>>

Its hard work to sweep and mop a floor , its hard work to build a play scene, its hard work to entertain 4 little boys ...she gave a tour, she suggested activities, she got everyone snacks , and tried to make sure everyone was having a good time. I just helped a bit by keeping things flowing.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

>>it's just that I don't understand missing out on teaching kids
>>the value of hard work and respect for their things and the house
overall.>>>>>>>>

My young adults were not taught to clean, the value of hard work, or respect
for their things and the house overall, but they each learned all of these
things internally as they lived life in a respectful, supportive, flowing
home.

If I had a bunch of kids over and I knew our time together was about to end,
and the mess was big, I might start to pick things up and might ask for help
here and there. The response or lack of response from the kids wouldn't
matter. More often than not though, kids help.

That is different than saying, "It is now clean-up time. Everyone pitch in!"

Today at home if I ask for help, my kids almost always do. Lots of times I
don't even say anything and the groceries are carried in, or the dishwasher
is being filled, or the floor is swept. These acts of helping and
responsibility (and hard work and respect for their things and the house
overall) came without my forcing it or teaching it.

Jacki

Bob Collier

(b) Say my house my rules and in this house we don't worry about
trivial things like making kids clean.

Bob




--- In [email protected], Nicole Willoughby
<cncnawilloughby@...> wrote:
>
> We had the neighbor boys over to play today. 4. ages 4-8 , then
mine 4-7. They all had a great time. Played with toys, we made
homemade bubble solution and bent wire coat hangers to make wands.
Came in and had snacks then went back to our bedroom so they could
jump on the bed and play gamecube on the bug tv.
> Dad came over telling them it was time to clean up and head home
and I suggested they have just a little time to finish up their sonic
game. So he left and they finished up and headed home.
> 5 minutes later mom comes dragging them back over . She says Ive
brought them back over to help you clean up they shouldnt be leaving
a mess for you like this. I tell her no its fine , I dont make kids
clean up . She says well I do they have to learn . back and forth,
etc .
> So I ended up suggesting they pick up as many toys as they are
old.
>
> A good number of kids are off at daycare and we dont have
visitors that often;
>
> How do you handle it ?
>
> Respect the parents wishes and ask them to clean?
> Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about
trivial things like making kids clean?
> Keep sending them home without cleaning and maybe mom will just
let it go?
>
> OR?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
Yahoo! Games.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "jen mobley" <jenpmobley@...>
wrote:
>
> why in the WORLD would you not make your kids clean up their toys?
Don't you
> feel like a maid?
>
>

Make? I don't "make" my children do anything. If they want to clean
up their toys, they do, if they don't want to, they don't. If I
choose to do it on their behalf, I call that customer service.

Bob




> >From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: AlwaysLearning@...
> >Subject: [AlwaysLearning] how to handle cleaning ( or not ) with
other
> >peoples kids
> >Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >We had the neighbor boys over to play today. 4. ages 4-8 , then
mine 4-7.
> >They all had a great time. Played with toys, we made homemade
bubble
> >solution and bent wire coat hangers to make wands. Came in and had
snacks
> >then went back to our bedroom so they could jump on the bed and
play
> >gamecube on the bug tv.
> > Dad came over telling them it was time to clean up and head
home and I
> >suggested they have just a little time to finish up their sonic
game. So he
> >left and they finished up and headed home.
> > 5 minutes later mom comes dragging them back over . She says
Ive brought
> >them back over to help you clean up they shouldnt be leaving a
mess for you
> >like this. I tell her no its fine , I dont make kids clean up .
She says
> >well I do they have to learn . back and forth, etc .
> > So I ended up suggesting they pick up as many toys as they are
old.
> >
> > A good number of kids are off at daycare and we dont have
visitors that
> >often;
> >
> > How do you handle it ?
> >
> > Respect the parents wishes and ask them to clean?
> > Say my house my rules and in this house we dont worry about
trivial
> >things like making kids clean?
> > Keep sending them home without cleaning and maybe mom will just
let it
> >go?
> >
> > OR?
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Be a PS3 game guru.
> >Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
Yahoo!
> >Games.
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play now–it's FREE!
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>

Sandra Dodd

-=-(b) Say my house my rules and in this house we don't worry about
trivial things like making kids clean.
-=-

That's a good one. <g>

A suggestion from another list (Robyn Coburn wrote):
-=-The other reason I often don't want help cleaning up is that Jayn
and I are going to be continuing the game. Maybe something like "I
don't know whether my kids are quite finished with the stuff yet"
would be useful.-=-

Sometimes other families do expect and require that kids clean up and
when I picked my kids up from such places, I helped with the
cleaning, while hearing stories of how much fun it had been, instead
of standing with the mom supervising the labor.

When other moms did the little sing-songy voice "Did you clean up
your mess?" or whatever condescending, shaming thing they might have
had to say to their kids, in front of me and my kids, implying or
stating that what kids do is "a mess," I would try to aim for saying
something that would soothe the kid and stop the mom, and then I
would smile. I'd say something like "They played outside a lot, and
there isn't anything to clean up," or "We'll get that stuff later."
And smile.

But if anyone presses me to "discipline" their kids at my house, or
make them eat something or to make them do anything, I just defend
the kid and my house. It's sanctuary. Their options are to stop
coming over or to let me have my way at my house. To let their kids
have my way at my house, or to stop bringing them over.

And my kids either go with the rules and structures at other houses,
and if it's too much for them they quit going over.

Sandra

Tina

*Today at home if I ask for help, my kids almost always do. Lots of
times I
don't even say anything and the groceries are carried in, or the
dishwasher
is being filled, or the floor is swept. These acts of helping and
responsibility (and hard work and respect for their things and the
house
overall) came without my forcing it or teaching it.*



This is so cool. I never "make" my children clean up. They do it b/c
they choose to and when they see me doing something most of they time
will join in too. They are very helpful.

Pamela Sorooshian

Or -- I'm just too fussy about the housekeeping to let the kids do it.

(No way I could have said that with a straight face, when my kids
were younger, but it might work for somebody.)

-pam

On Jun 5, 2007, at 5:17 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> -=-The other reason I often don't want help cleaning up is that Jayn
> and I are going to be continuing the game. Maybe something like "I
> don't know whether my kids are quite finished with the stuff yet"
> would be useful.-=-



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "jen mobley" <jenpmobley@...>
wrote:
> I don't understand missing out on teaching kids
> the value of hard work and respect for their things and the house
overall.

I did the whole "value of hard work" thing when my stepson was little.
It created an ugly, antagonistic relationship that we're still working
on healing. I wish I'd "missed" that. I'm happy to be missing it with
my dd.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)