jenbgosh

Remember that part in Wizard of Oz where they have to go rescue
Dorothy from the witch and the lion finally agrees to go, but he
says to the Tin Man and the Scarecrow, "I just want you guys to do
one thing. Talk me out of it!" Well, consider me the Cowardly Lion.

Here's the deal. We've been sailing along (waves here and there of
course, but always working toward the ideal.) Very comfortable with
our unschooling path. Big RU cheerleader. Ready to describe/defend
unschooling in the homeschooling community. But, lately I've been
hit with a huge need for a break, some relief, some solace.

It's the whole litany. No time to myself. Feeling like I'm
not "doing enough." Feeling as though we've fallen into a rut of
the same old activities, and wondering if they are contributing to
our intellectual growth in any way. And tired! I haven't been
sleeping that well, so I have had days when I'm really, physically
tired. But I'm tired in other ways too. Tired of thinking of
things to offer and invite. Tired of the hassle of getting everyone
out the door (to go somewhere everyone SAYS they want to go.) And,
I'm ashamed to admit, tired of actively listening to my children
sometimes.

Last week my 9 year old daughter Pearl told me she'd like to see
what school is all about. She came up with this idea while we were
at my son's softball game, which took place at a school playground.
Pearl was playing on the equipment, and I am sure it is just a
harmless, "gee I wonder what that's like" kind of thing. She was
clear that she didn't think she'd ever want to really go to school,
but she'd like to go for a day just to see what it's like. I told
her I might be able to arrange for her to visit our local school for
a day to visit. I told her they might team her up with another
student or something and she could get a sense of what a school day
is like. Well, she hated that idea, and said it would be too
embarrassing to have to go around with someone else. What she
wanted was more of the fly on the wall thing. Where she'd be there,
unnoticed, or rather, just like everyone else. But of course if
she's visiting for one day, that just isn't going to happen.

Here's where the evil fantasy comes in.

In our area, two local schools are merging next year. Grades K - 3
will be at one school and grades 4 & 5 will be in the other. My
fantasy is to sign my son and daughter up for school next year.
They won't stand out as the new kids, because the merger will bring
lots of new faces to the schools. They could attend the school for
a few weeks, satisfy their curiosity, and give me the break I
crave. Then they could come back home before I have to send in the
paperwork to register as homeschoolers. I could pull them out, send
in the form, and there you have it. It would be like a trip to a
foreign land for them, and a little vacation for me too.

Has anyone ever done something similar? What do you see as the pros
and cons of this?

As much as I feel like this might do us all a bit of good, I feel
guilty, and like an unschooling failure just for thinking about
it.

SHERRY LANGEVIN

Yes, I did it. In 2nd or 3rd grade I took my kid out of school. Where we lived then, there weren't alot of 'unschool/homeschool' families. We did stuff and had fun, but she said she missed her school mates. She played with them everyday after the bus brought them home, and all summer long. She forgot what school was like. When the new school year started in Sept., she wanted to go. I enrolled her and said 'if you like it stay, if you dont like it, let me know'. She did ok for two weeks, then asked to be homeschooled again. Asked her why- 'boring. we sit all day. '
First when she returned to school, didn't know what to do with myself. 2nd week, I began to figure out some stuff to do by myself. (yes, I enjoyed being by myself) Took her out, and we returned to homeschooling life. She didn't ask again, although at end of each summer, she missed her school friends. We now live in another state that has many homeschooling activities, and she knows quite a few hs'd kids.
Anyway, I know how you feel; my situation wasn't same as yours, but yes, you do get burn out. My advice--take a little downtime. Everyday doesn't need to be a 'trove of learning'. Some times it's nice to be quiet, entertain yourselves, use your own resources in your head. The kids wont 'lose out' on anything.
Enjoy your life with them, there are plenty of things to do that will wait. Others might disagree with me, but if they really want to go to school, let them. Just tell them, if they change their minds, they can come home. (if that's what you want to try)
Sherry

jenbgosh <pcjen@...> wrote:
Remember that part in Wizard of Oz where they have to go rescue
Dorothy from the witch and the lion finally agrees to go, but he
says to the Tin Man and the Scarecrow, "I just want you guys to do
one thing. Talk me out of it!" Well, consider me the Cowardly Lion.

Here's the deal. We've been sailing along (waves here and there of
course, but always working toward the ideal.) Very comfortable with
our unschooling path. Big RU cheerleader. Ready to describe/defend
unschooling in the homeschooling community. But, lately I've been
hit with a huge need for a break, some relief, some solace.

It's the whole litany. No time to myself. Feeling like I'm
not "doing enough." Feeling as though we've fallen into a rut of
the same old activities, and wondering if they are contributing to
our intellectual growth in any way. And tired! I haven't been
sleeping that well, so I have had days when I'm really, physically
tired. But I'm tired in other ways too. Tired of thinking of
things to offer and invite. Tired of the hassle of getting everyone
out the door (to go somewhere everyone SAYS they want to go.) And,
I'm ashamed to admit, tired of actively listening to my children
sometimes.

Last week my 9 year old daughter Pearl told me she'd like to see
what school is all about. She came up with this idea while we were
at my son's softball game, which took place at a school playground.
Pearl was playing on the equipment, and I am sure it is just a
harmless, "gee I wonder what that's like" kind of thing. She was
clear that she didn't think she'd ever want to really go to school,
but she'd like to go for a day just to see what it's like. I told
her I might be able to arrange for her to visit our local school for
a day to visit. I told her they might team her up with another
student or something and she could get a sense of what a school day
is like. Well, she hated that idea, and said it would be too
embarrassing to have to go around with someone else. What she
wanted was more of the fly on the wall thing. Where she'd be there,
unnoticed, or rather, just like everyone else. But of course if
she's visiting for one day, that just isn't going to happen.

Here's where the evil fantasy comes in.

In our area, two local schools are merging next year. Grades K - 3
will be at one school and grades 4 & 5 will be in the other. My
fantasy is to sign my son and daughter up for school next year.
They won't stand out as the new kids, because the merger will bring
lots of new faces to the schools. They could attend the school for
a few weeks, satisfy their curiosity, and give me the break I
crave. Then they could come back home before I have to send in the
paperwork to register as homeschoolers. I could pull them out, send
in the form, and there you have it. It would be like a trip to a
foreign land for them, and a little vacation for me too.

Has anyone ever done something similar? What do you see as the pros
and cons of this?

As much as I feel like this might do us all a bit of good, I feel
guilty, and like an unschooling failure just for thinking about
it.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

InnerLight Academy

First of all we all have fantisized about sending our kids away to school (if even for a fleeting moment)
You see all the freedom they(campus school parents) have all day, all week and you feel jealous.
But do you really want to send your kids to the government? even for a few weeks? Do you want them in the system?
You may raise their presence to the system and they(The system) may cause problems for you when you pull them out.
Do you really want your kids picked on, harassed, exposed to sickness, drugs, and violence?
If the teacher knows you are only doing this as a trial they may not even try to act normal around your kids.
A friend of mine had her ds in K5. She planned to pull him out for Homeschooling at Christmas break and it was Oct. The teacher put him in the back of the room and ignored him. Wouldnt let him participate in the learning the Christmas play or anything. My friend went ahead and removed him. I kept him until she could quit her job. They are very fickle folks! I wouldnt try it. You may DO experiments WITH your kids but your kids are NOT experiments.

Have you considered a day or 'live in' camp for summer? One where they can choose what craft station to do, or whether to swim or hike? My kids (teens now) Started going to camp at age 7. Between the horses, canoes, hiking, swimming, camp fires, games, crafts, go carts, rock walls, and etc...they Dont ever want to come home. I get a week off(this year 2 weeks since they are now junior councilors, next year they can stay the whole summer if they want too(and they will))
Since camps stay so busy, that may be just the thing you need for a break, The kids would actually have fun and be free.(Not stuck being told to sit still and shut up all day like in a school setting)

It(Unschooling) gets easier as they get older, they find what they want without you having to (or being allowed to) find things for them. They become independent, and self starters. They want to do stuff alone and show you the final product, They grow up...Then you will miss all the fun you had with them. Then you have to find things to do for yourself!

I know its hard now, but it will pass quickly...
ENJOY it.
Dena
12th year Homeschooling mom of teens(and missing the little tots I once had)

FREE ALABAMA HOMESCHOOLING INFORMATION:
*NEW* FORUM!!cover schools, events calendar, online curriculum, laws and more...
http://www.alabamahomeschooling.net



----- Original Message ----
From: jenbgosh <pcjen@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:23:20 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Talk me out of my Evil Fantasy

Remember that part in Wizard of Oz where they have to go rescue
Dorothy from the witch and the lion finally agrees to go, but he
says to the Tin Man and the Scarecrow, "I just want you guys to do
one thing. Talk me out of it!" Well, consider me the Cowardly Lion.

Here's the deal. We've been sailing along (waves here and there of
course, but always working toward the ideal.) Very comfortable with
our unschooling path. Big RU cheerleader. Ready to describe/defend
unschooling in the homeschooling community. But, lately I've been
hit with a huge need for a break, some relief, some solace.

It's the whole litany. No time to myself. Feeling like I'm
not "doing enough." Feeling as though we've fallen into a rut of
the same old activities, and wondering if they are contributing to
our intellectual growth in any way. And tired! I haven't been
sleeping that well, so I have had days when I'm really, physically
tired. But I'm tired in other ways too. Tired of thinking of
things to offer and invite. Tired of the hassle of getting everyone
out the door (to go somewhere everyone SAYS they want to go.) And,
I'm ashamed to admit, tired of actively listening to my children
sometimes.

Last week my 9 year old daughter Pearl told me she'd like to see
what school is all about. She came up with this idea while we were
at my son's softball game, which took place at a school playground.
Pearl was playing on the equipment, and I am sure it is just a
harmless, "gee I wonder what that's like" kind of thing. She was
clear that she didn't think she'd ever want to really go to school,
but she'd like to go for a day just to see what it's like. I told
her I might be able to arrange for her to visit our local school for
a day to visit. I told her they might team her up with another
student or something and she could get a sense of what a school day
is like. Well, she hated that idea, and said it would be too
embarrassing to have to go around with someone else. What she
wanted was more of the fly on the wall thing. Where she'd be there,
unnoticed, or rather, just like everyone else. But of course if
she's visiting for one day, that just isn't going to happen.

Here's where the evil fantasy comes in.

In our area, two local schools are merging next year. Grades K - 3
will be at one school and grades 4 & 5 will be in the other. My
fantasy is to sign my son and daughter up for school next year.
They won't stand out as the new kids, because the merger will bring
lots of new faces to the schools. They could attend the school for
a few weeks, satisfy their curiosity, and give me the break I
crave. Then they could come back home before I have to send in the
paperwork to register as homeschoolers. I could pull them out, send
in the form, and there you have it. It would be like a trip to a
foreign land for them, and a little vacation for me too.

Has anyone ever done something similar? What do you see as the pros
and cons of this?

As much as I feel like this might do us all a bit of good, I feel
guilty, and like an unschooling failure just for thinking about
it.






____________________________________________________________________________________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

You've got the summer ahead of you - are there any day camps the kids
would like to attend? That might help your dd get enough of a taste
of "school" to be satsified *and* jump start some new interests.

For that matter, can *you* take a class or join a club? Something to
get you out and doing something different, meeting new people, etc.
Maybe a book club, or yoga, ballroom dance, wine tasting, pottery, tai
chi, aromatherapy, gardening, piano lessons, juggling... look around
and see what's out there for adults to do. Maybe your dd would like to
do it with you - then she really *could* be more of an observer.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Gold Standard

>>First of all we all have fantisized about sending our kids away to school
(if even for a fleeting moment)
>>You see all the freedom they(campus school parents) have all day, all week
and you feel jealous.<<

Um, this does not describe me or many others I know. Can never remember
fantasizing about sending my kids away, or feeling jealous about campus
school parents. It actually gives me a deep pain to think of it.

It tends to work better on this list to communicate from your own experience
("I") rather than generalizing that your thinking is the same as everyone
else's ("we all").

Thanks,
Jacki

Vida

>>> >>First of all we all have fantisized about sending our kids away to school
(if even for a fleeting moment)

>
ah..... I haven¹t, and I can¹t even call myself a full-fledged RU yet (my
girls are 8). I¹m still de-schooling myself, letting go of control issues I
have with myself and I am someone who loves my quiet times.... but I have
NEVER, not even for a ³fleeting moment² wished my girls away from me. I
don¹t even leave them overnight with their grandmother (who lives up the
hill) because they don¹t want me to.

Please speak for yourself. I am not part of the ³we all².

Vida


www.aegean-villas.com
www.paintinggreece.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

>>> First of all we all have fantisized about sending our kids away
>>> to school
> (if even for a fleeting moment)
>>> You see all the freedom they(campus school parents) have all day,
>>> all week
> and you feel jealous.<<


School? Nah - we really dropped that option from our radar such a
long time ago that it wouldn't occur to me to consider it. Even at
our worst moments (and, yes, we have had times when we weren't
getting along well) it seemed best to me that we were together to
work through things that needed working through. Besides, I talk to
those schooled-kids parents a lot - I'm spending this entire weekend
at a soccer tournament, for example, hanging out with parents of kids
who go to school. During lunch yesterday the other parents spent the
ENTIRE lunch time talking about all the problems they have with their
kids - all related to school issues and all causing conflicts between
parents and kids. These are involved and caring parents with good
kids - girls spending their weekend hanging around with their soccer
team friends - all really what you'd call "wholesome" girls. But, to
listen to their parents, their school lives are extremely difficult,
it is one problem after another - often ridiculous problems created
by school officials making up rules and applying them without regard
to individual situations. Let's see, here is an example of the topics
discussed at lunch yesterday.

Tardiness to class - one girl has had so many tardies that they are
threatening to reduce the credits she's earning which would mean
taking an extra class next year in order to be able to graduate on
time, but that would mean she'd probably have to quit playing soccer
because she's already overwhelmed with homework and next year she
also has to do the mandatory community service graduation
requirement, too. Her tardies are because she has a class for first-
period that is off-campus and that teacher isn't letting them out in
time to get to the campus for second-period on time. Does the second-
period teacher care? Nah. This has been an ongoing problem for
several years. To make up the tardies, she is supposed to go to
detention - but she can't go after school to detention because of
other activities - soccer practice is one - and she can't go to
Saturday morning detention because that's when the soccer games are.

So - there are more - there is the girl who is extremely sociable -
on the soccer team she talks and talks and is full of energy and is
happy and inspiring and often the center of some kind of fun plan.
She's the one who gets the other girls to dump an ice chest of cold
water on the coach after a game and she's the one who gets all the
girls together for pizza, etc. Social director. Great kid. But she's
always in trouble at school. Her mom and dad spend lots of time there
with her in the principal's office, trying to figure out "what to do
about Tiffany." They sat at lunch yesterday with other parents and
openly talked about trying to figure out what is WRONG with her
because she's so much more interested in her social stuff than in her
classes. Other parents' advice - take away the social life until she
cracks down on studying and raises her grades.

Anyway - enough about school because that isn't the point. The point
is that if someone is fantasizing about sending their kids off to
school and things being EASIER for the parents - then it might be
doing you more harm than you imagine because it is comparing the
reality of no-school with an idealized picture of school. My own
experience is that parents of kids in school are often feeling
tortured over the problems school is creating in their lives and that
schooling is the number one thing that alienates children from their
parents and that THAT leads to all kinds of other big problems. Even
the very best school experience is pretty awful (for parents and
kids) compared to real-life in a devoted unschooling family.

I just don't think indulging in that kind of fantasy is a good idea
and it would be better to be more realistic about what school often
really does to parents and their children. Then, when things are
difficult in our own lives as unschooling parents, when we're tired
and frustrated, we can focus more on resolving our problems and
working through issues, without that background idea that we could
just send the kids to school. Better to recognize that school isn't a
realistic panacea and live as if school didn't exist. I really
suggest letting that thought of "send them to school" go - stop
thinking of that as a last resort when things seem especially
difficult. It is a sort of booby trap in a parents' thinking
processes - it won't help you unschool more joyfully.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina

Can I recommend Belly dancing? I have been doing it for a while now
and it is so much fun. Plus you bond with the girls in your class and
become a troupe. My family comes out to performances and festivals and
it is a lot of fun. Just a suggestion!


--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> You've got the summer ahead of you - are there any day camps the
kids
> would like to attend? That might help your dd get enough of a taste
> of "school" to be satsified *and* jump start some new interests.
>
> For that matter, can *you* take a class or join a club? Something to
> get you out and doing something different, meeting new people, etc.
> Maybe a book club, or yoga, ballroom dance, wine tasting, pottery,
tai
> chi, aromatherapy, gardening, piano lessons, juggling... look around
> and see what's out there for adults to do. Maybe your dd would like
to
> do it with you - then she really *could* be more of an observer.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
>

sstritzler

--- In [email protected], "jenbgosh" <pcjen@...> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone ever done something similar? What do you see as the pros
> and cons of this?
>
When she was 7 my daughter asked if she could try a day of school to see what it was like.
The school agreed (we live in a small, rural town; the school is small and very community
oriented) so she went to one day of 2nd grade. After that she asked if she could go for a
few days to have more of an experience, so she went for 3 more days. I think there were
things she liked (being with kids her age--we're a bit isolated here) but the loss of
freedom inherent in going to school was obvious to her. Why would she want to do what
someone else told her all day? She is now about to turn ten and gets a big kick out of
telling people she went to school for 4 days. I know a few kids who tried school for a year,
all around 4th grade. It seemed to satisfied their curiosity with little detriment other then
the anxiety it caused their moms.

> As much as I feel like this might do us all a bit of good, I feel
> guilty, and like an unschooling failure just for thinking about
> it.
>
I crave time alone and rarely get it. Since school is out there it's sometimes easy to
imagine that my life would be easier if my kids went. I don't think it's something to feel
guilty about (I also don't think it's really true; school comes with its own demands on
family life). Perhaps you can find other ways of gaining some time to yourself (some have
already been posted). Lately I've been trying to take a walk by myself. It's a small thing,
but that half hour of solitude really helps me. A few years ago I mentioned in passing to
my husband a class I was interested in taking at a craft school far from where we live. I
wasn't seriouly thinking I could do it; I was reading the catalogue and mentioned that an
artist whose work I admire was teaching that summer. To my great suprise he encouraged
me to do it and worked out a plan to make it happen. It worked out great. The kids still
talk about things they did while I was gone, and I'm still drawing on the experience.
We've had times when it seemed likethe kids just weren't into much. After awhile things
shift and there's a flurry of renewed interests, energy, and "intellectual growth". Summer
is coming. Lying around listening to the birds sing can be activity enough.

Suzanne

Sandra Dodd

-=-My friend went ahead and removed him. I kept him until she could
quit her job. They are very fickle folks! -=-

Who are very fickle folks?
Each parent, child, teacher, principal is an individual. There is no
"they."

-=-First of all we all have ...-=-

Others have addressed this, but they left out the "they," which is
the same kind of generalization.

-=-Do you really want your kids picked on, harassed, exposed to
sickness, drugs, and violence?-=-

This is another generalization.

-=-My kids (teens now) Started going to camp at age 7. -=-

Was it a government-sponsored camp? (Mostly I'm joking, but not
entirely.)

How do you know they weren't going to be picked on, harassed, exposed
to sickness, drugs and violence?

-=Since camps stay so busy, that may be just the thing you need for a
break, The kids would actually have fun and be free.(Not stuck being
told to sit still and shut up all day like in a school setting)-=-

I don't believe the generalization that all camps are fun and busy
and kids won't be being told to sit still and shut up is valid or
accurate.

-=-It(Unschooling) gets easier as they get older, they find what they
want without you having to (or being allowed to) find things for
them.-=-

My children allow me to find things for them, and I allow (encourage,
appreciate) them finding things for me.

-=-They want to do stuff alone and show you the final product, They
grow up...Then you will miss all the fun you had with them.-=-

Is this personal experience? My kids do things alone or not, and
show me the results (rarely "final product") sometimes, but not always.
I've known a couple of unschoolers who missed the chance to grow up,
so even "they grow up" is too great a generalization.

At the moment, Holly (15) is helping Marty (18) change the background
on his MySpace page (at his request). He is helping her photoshop a
photo (at her request). I'll get a chance to see the results of both
shared projects.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Anyway, I know how you feel; my situation wasn't same as yours,
but yes, you do get burn out. My advice--take a little downtime.
Everyday doesn't need to be a 'trove of learning'.-=-

I think "burn out" might be too harsh a term.

Kids don't have to be dazzled every hour of every day. School
doesn't even often attempt dazzlement, and school is more like six
hours a day, 180 days a year. You can do the math yourself if you've
never thought of it that way--there are a WHOLE lot of days and hours
left...

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn

Yes I have thought this and thanks for bringing it up... I don't
think it's appropriate to shame and judge others when they have
these thoughts. I commend you for being honest about where you are
at. I have gone back and forth between child centered learning and
school since my kids were born. They have been in school for about
2 years total. They are now ages nearly 8 and nearly 12 and I'm very
clear about the reason I do it. It's babysitting to give me a
break. Do I feel bad about it when I do it? Mostly not because I
can find plenty of people to justify me doing it (the normal
people). When I'm unschooling I can find just as many women in my
community (I belong to a group of women - we are called the
mamatribe) who support me unschooling. I can always find support
for whatever I choose.

I am still looking to figure out how to find the balance. Currently
I have 1 unschooler and one who has been at school last term. Don't
know what I'm going to do in the fall because I love the work that I
do (I have a home based business) and I love having my kids learn
what they want to learn when they want to learn it and I don't like
schools (although the school they have been to is a Sudbury type
school - so lots of freedom to do what they want when they want)

So my feeling is that if I feel the need to use the babysitting
services of schools and I can live with that feeling inside of me,
that's the only guage that is important, not what others think of
the choices that I make.

JMHO

Namaste

Dawn
Max nearly 8 and Zak nearly 12
Tucson, AZ




--- In [email protected], InnerLight Academy
<innerlightacademy@...> wrote:
>
> First of all we all have fantisized about sending our kids away to
school (if even for a fleeting moment)
> You see all the freedom they(campus school parents) have all day,
all week and you feel jealous.
> But do you really want to send your kids to the government? even
for a few weeks? Do you want them in the system?
> You may raise their presence to the system and they(The system)
may cause problems for you when you pull them out.
> Do you really want your kids picked on, harassed, exposed to
sickness, drugs, and violence?
> If the teacher knows you are only doing this as a trial they may
not even try to act normal around your kids.
> A friend of mine had her ds in K5. She planned to pull him out for
Homeschooling at Christmas break and it was Oct. The teacher put him
in the back of the room and ignored him. Wouldnt let him participate
in the learning the Christmas play or anything. My friend went ahead
and removed him. I kept him until she could quit her job. They are
very fickle folks! I wouldnt try it. You may DO experiments WITH
your kids but your kids are NOT experiments.
>
> Have you considered a day or 'live in' camp for summer? One where
they can choose what craft station to do, or whether to swim or
hike? My kids (teens now) Started going to camp at age 7. Between
the horses, canoes, hiking, swimming, camp fires, games, crafts, go
carts, rock walls, and etc...they Dont ever want to come home. I get
a week off(this year 2 weeks since they are now junior councilors,
next year they can stay the whole summer if they want too(and they
will))
> Since camps stay so busy, that may be just the thing you need for
a break, The kids would actually have fun and be free.(Not stuck
being told to sit still and shut up all day like in a school setting)
>
> It(Unschooling) gets easier as they get older, they find what they
want without you having to (or being allowed to) find things for
them. They become independent, and self starters. They want to do
stuff alone and show you the final product, They grow up...Then you
will miss all the fun you had with them. Then you have to find
things to do for yourself!
>
> I know its hard now, but it will pass quickly...
> ENJOY it.
> Dena
> 12th year Homeschooling mom of teens(and missing the little tots I
once had)
>
> FREE ALABAMA HOMESCHOOLING INFORMATION:
> *NEW* FORUM!!cover schools, events calendar, online curriculum,
laws and more...
> http://www.alabamahomeschooling.net
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: jenbgosh <pcjen@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2007 7:23:20 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Talk me out of my Evil Fantasy
>
> Remember that part in Wizard of Oz where they have to go rescue
> Dorothy from the witch and the lion finally agrees to go, but he
> says to the Tin Man and the Scarecrow, "I just want you guys to do
> one thing. Talk me out of it!" Well, consider me the Cowardly Lion.
>
> Here's the deal. We've been sailing along (waves here and there of
> course, but always working toward the ideal.) Very comfortable
with
> our unschooling path. Big RU cheerleader. Ready to describe/defend
> unschooling in the homeschooling community. But, lately I've been
> hit with a huge need for a break, some relief, some solace.
>
> It's the whole litany. No time to myself. Feeling like I'm
> not "doing enough." Feeling as though we've fallen into a rut of
> the same old activities, and wondering if they are contributing to
> our intellectual growth in any way. And tired! I haven't been
> sleeping that well, so I have had days when I'm really, physically
> tired. But I'm tired in other ways too. Tired of thinking of
> things to offer and invite. Tired of the hassle of getting
everyone
> out the door (to go somewhere everyone SAYS they want to go.) And,
> I'm ashamed to admit, tired of actively listening to my children
> sometimes.
>
> Last week my 9 year old daughter Pearl told me she'd like to see
> what school is all about. She came up with this idea while we were
> at my son's softball game, which took place at a school
playground.
> Pearl was playing on the equipment, and I am sure it is just a
> harmless, "gee I wonder what that's like" kind of thing. She was
> clear that she didn't think she'd ever want to really go to
school,
> but she'd like to go for a day just to see what it's like. I told
> her I might be able to arrange for her to visit our local school
for
> a day to visit. I told her they might team her up with another
> student or something and she could get a sense of what a school
day
> is like. Well, she hated that idea, and said it would be too
> embarrassing to have to go around with someone else. What she
> wanted was more of the fly on the wall thing. Where she'd be
there,
> unnoticed, or rather, just like everyone else. But of course if
> she's visiting for one day, that just isn't going to happen.
>
> Here's where the evil fantasy comes in.
>
> In our area, two local schools are merging next year. Grades K - 3
> will be at one school and grades 4 & 5 will be in the other. My
> fantasy is to sign my son and daughter up for school next year.
> They won't stand out as the new kids, because the merger will
bring
> lots of new faces to the schools. They could attend the school for
> a few weeks, satisfy their curiosity, and give me the break I
> crave. Then they could come back home before I have to send in the
> paperwork to register as homeschoolers. I could pull them out,
send
> in the form, and there you have it. It would be like a trip to a
> foreign land for them, and a little vacation for me too.
>
> Has anyone ever done something similar? What do you see as the
pros
> and cons of this?
>
> As much as I feel like this might do us all a bit of good, I feel
> guilty, and like an unschooling failure just for thinking about
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
_______________Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here
and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fetteroll

On May 29, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Dawn wrote:

> Do I feel bad about it when I do it? Mostly not because I
> can find plenty of people to justify me doing it (the normal
> people).

If it were a decision you felt totally secure about you wouldn't need
people to make you feel justified.

Painting over the water damage on the ceiling makes it look nice but
doesn't fix the roof.

> So my feeling is that if I feel the need to use the babysitting
> services of schools and I can live with that feeling inside of me,
> that's the only guage that is important, not what others think of
> the choices that I make.

You're not taking into account what the children think and need and
feel.

We certainly should take care of our own needs or we'll burn out. But
taking from others to meet our own needs leaves the others feeling
needy and less important.

It sounds like, instead of doing little things for yourself all along
to renew your energy, you're going for burn out and then put the kids
in school until you recover.

There are better -- relationship building -- choices.

If the kids want to go to the Sudbury school and they can come home
anytime and you know you've done everything you could to meet their
needs at home and the kids know school isn't necessary to learn, then
the children have freely chosen. So what's to feel guilty about?

If it's something else, this isn't the place to find support for the
idea of *sending* kids to school. People on the list can, though,
help with ideas on how to solve problems that get in the way of
unschooling.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn

Wow Joyce:

I'm going to have to pick my words more carefully in future.. I
didn't realize that they were going to be picked apart! (LOL)

I don't feel totally secure about what I'm doing, which is why I
felt safe enough to express it here.

I respect yours and many other "old timers" on this lists' thoughts
and observations and glad you took the time to dissect my e-mail.

>We certainly should take care of our own needs or we'll burn out.
But
> taking from others to meet our own needs leaves the others
feeling
> needy and less important.

what about how I feel needy and less important or doesn't it work
both ways? It's only important what the kids need?

I would love suggestions on how not to send them to school in the
fall and not get burned out at the same time.

It depends on the day when my 7 year old is at school. If Zak has
been with his grandparents or we went to the movies or to our home
schooling meeting then he gets annoyed and jealous that Zak got to
do something fun, whilst he had to go to school. Even though the
school doesn't require him to do anything in the way of "school
work".. When the school is off to the zoo or the theatre or even to
see the goats and hens on the school property he's ok.

I've been talking, but probably not enough, to my mamatribe about
putting the idea out to our kids about doing different projects and
bringing the kids together to do those projects (things they are all
interested in such as building a volcano, going on a hike to collect
wild flowers. And having one or two adults with them whilst the
others get some down time... I think I'll pursue this a little more.

For me it's not so much about that it's that I love what I do for a
living and don't want to give it up and how do I balance that with
being with the kids the majority of the time?

I have an incredible husband that is completely into unschooling.
He stayed at home for 2 years with the kids whilst I expanded my
business from part time to full time, whilst he got his MBA and I
financially supported us. Currently he's working a part time job
and it works, but has just taken a full time job that we don't know
he'll stay at and that puts me in charge more of the day/evening
with the kids and less time to work on my business.

In my business I can schedule my clients whenever I want and most of
my business is flexible (except when I'm on certain radio stations -
then I have to be "on the air" when they say) so I'm thinking as I'm
writing it's more of a time management issue and that's an area that
I could do with some input on.

I think I also feel guilty if I'm answering e-mails and the kids are
playing, like I ought to be with them doing something all the time.
Maybe these are just old messages from my family.

Speaking of family my parents don't support us in home schooling of
any kind. They believe kids need to be in school and even though
I've given my mum books about homeschooling my mum says "well you
will get burnt out if you have them all the time and try to work"

OK so now I've put that out to the Universe and the list I'll see
what comes back. Thankfully having been involved with unschooling
since Zak (soon to be 12) was 2 I have pretty thick skin when it
comes to hearing people's opinions!! (LOL)

Who else out there is self employed in doing what they love whilst
unschooling their kids? And how does it work for you with time
management as well as if you feel any guilt about time you spend on
your business? Those are the people I need to hear from as we are
in the same boat!

Thanks Joyce for having me look at this issue from a different
perspective. When I first read your e-mail yesterday I was
affronted and annoyed and ready to pick you apart. Good job I sat
with it overnight and whilst having my quiet time this morning
(between 5:30am-6:30am) I was able to see it in a new light...

Namaste

Dawn
Tucson, AZ
Zak 11, Max 7




--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On May 29, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Dawn wrote:
>
> > Do I feel bad about it when I do it? Mostly not because I
> > can find plenty of people to justify me doing it (the normal
> > people).
>
> If it were a decision you felt totally secure about you wouldn't
need
> people to make you feel justified.
>
> Painting over the water damage on the ceiling makes it look nice
but
> doesn't fix the roof.
>
> > So my feeling is that if I feel the need to use the babysitting
> > services of schools and I can live with that feeling inside of
me,
> > that's the only guage that is important, not what others think of
> > the choices that I make.
>
> You're not taking into account what the children think and need
and
> feel.
>
> We certainly should take care of our own needs or we'll burn out.
But
> taking from others to meet our own needs leaves the others
feeling
> needy and less important.
>
> It sounds like, instead of doing little things for yourself all
along
> to renew your energy, you're going for burn out and then put the
kids
> in school until you recover.
>
> There are better -- relationship building -- choices.
>
> If the kids want to go to the Sudbury school and they can come
home
> anytime and you know you've done everything you could to meet
their
> needs at home and the kids know school isn't necessary to learn,
then
> the children have freely chosen. So what's to feel guilty about?
>
> If it's something else, this isn't the place to find support for
the
> idea of *sending* kids to school. People on the list can, though,
> help with ideas on how to solve problems that get in the way of
> unschooling.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=what about how I feel needy and less important or doesn't it work
both ways? It's only important what the kids need?-=-

The kids aren't as responsible for your happiness as you are for theirs.
If meeting your needs messes up their life, that will create MORE
need in your family.

All of us can probably think of a mom or two who put her own needs
far above her children's. For some of us it was our own moms.

And did they "meet their needs"? Did it make them feel happy and good?

-=-I would love suggestions on how not to send them to school in the
fall and not get burned out at the same time.
-=-

Those suggestions are in the fact and deed of unschooling completely.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

There's not one way to unschool wholly for people who don't want to
do it and another way to do it for people who do. There's living in
an unschooling way.

-=-whilst he had to go to school-=-

Is this a "had to" or a choice? Be very careful with "has to," and
read here: http://sandradodd.com/haveto

-=-I've been talking, but probably not enough, to my mamatribe about
putting the idea out to our kids about doing different projects and
bringing the kids together to do those project-=-

This sounds like going more toward schoolishness than unschooling.

-=-I'm thinking as I'm
writing it's more of a time management issue and that's an area that
I could do with some input on.-=-

If you arrange things your children can be doing, LOTS of things,
so they have options, you won't need to be right with them so much.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/nest

Sandra






Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

> It's only important what the kids need?

The kids didn't choose to be born. You chose to have kids come into
your family. They aren't responsible for meeting your needs. You are.
To build relationships you need to find ways to meet your needs
without taking from them.

It sounds harsh put that way but the best path to solving a problem
is by seeing the problem as clearly as possible without all the
pretty window dressing that makes us feel better about it.

> I'm going to have to pick my words more carefully in future.. I
> didn't realize that they were going to be picked apart! (LOL)

Rather than choosing words carefully to avoid having them analyzed
it's even more useful to choose words carefully in order to see your
problem as clearly as possible.

If someone says "The kids force me to send them to their rooms," she
can't see solutions as clearly as someone who says "I'm at my wit's
end and can't think of anything to do about the fighting but send the
kids to their rooms. What do you guys do?"

If we're telling strangers something, then that's what we're
thinking. We may know it's not literally true, but if we're phrasing
it that way we're seeing it that way and it's coloring our reactions.

> what about how I feel needy and less important or doesn't it work
> both ways?

It isn't either the kids get their needs met or you do. It's your
responsibility to make time to meet your needs without stealing from
them to do it. (One way would be describing your situation and asking
what others have done about it! :-)

Which solution feels less damaging to a relationship?

Your husband saying "I can't take it any longer at work. I'm totally
burned out. I'm sending you guys to a cheap motel for the weekend so
I can be alone."

Or, "I've started feeling a bit frazzled at work so I'm going to
start treating myself to a round of golf Friday afternoons."

> I've been talking, but probably not enough, to my mamatribe about
> putting the idea out to our kids about doing different projects

I think you need to talk to your son instead of other people. He's
feeling needy. There's something he's missing and it's coming out as
jealousy. You said "whilst he had to go to school". It *is* natural
to be jealous when you don't feel you've had the choice to do something.

Why does he have to go to school? Why can't he have the option of
going with you or going to the school on a particular day? Has it
been presented that either he goes to school for the duration or he
stays home for the duration? Why not lay out all the school rules for
him so he's choosing freely? If he can only miss so many days before
he's kicked out, let him decide if a particular trip with the family
is worth one of those days.

Being able to choose is *huge* in meeting needs. We can put up with a
great deal of nonsense (to get something better) when we're freely
choosing to put up with the nonsense rather than when someone tells
us we "have to".

When my daughter would say she didn't want to go to an art class
(that we'd already paid for) I too often knee jerk said "You have
to." But when I caught myself and realized that no, she didn't have
to and gave her the option, she more often than not chose to go. She
just wanted the choice to be hers.

> it's that I love what I do for a
> living and don't want to give it up and how do I balance that with
> being with the kids the majority of the time?

If you want to build the relationships with your kids then you need
to find a way to do what you love without taking from the kids to do
it. Putting your kids aside to do what you enjoy says loud and clear
"I love this thing more than I love you."

Or you can recognize and accept that you are making withdrawals from
the relationship by putting work first. You can make it up in other
ways. (Often it takes far more work to make it up!) Or you can accept
that your relationship with the kids won't be all that it can be. And
maybe when you're 90 and need your oatmeal pureed they'll let you
know that they learned from your example and that they've filled
their time with things they love more than you.

Clarity is important rather than finding various groups who will
agree to tell you you're doing fine regardless.

Put it this way: if someone decides they want to spank their kids,
they can find a group of people who will tell them of course they do,
there isn't another choice and they're being great parents. Just
because they can find people who agree does that make them great
parents? Does it make what they're doing right?

> In my business I can schedule my clients whenever I want and most of
> my business is flexible

Maybe you can find some other parents to trade off with. They can
take your kids when you're with clients and you can take theirs at
another time in trade.

> I think I also feel guilty if I'm answering e-mails and the kids are
> playing, like I ought to be with them doing something all the time.
> Maybe these are just old messages from my family.

What are your kids saying? Are they asking for you while you answer
email? Do you set the email aside to tend to them so that they see
that you're doing something while they do something rather than doing
something that's more important?

> Thanks Joyce for having me look at this issue from a different
> perspective. When I first read your e-mail yesterday I was
> affronted and annoyed and ready to pick you apart.

It *is* annoying when someone expects to hear "Yeah, you're right, I
know exactly what you mean and agree with you," and hear instead "The
problem isn't quite the way you're seeing it." ;-)

It does help people help themselves, as you found, to wait until the
urge to say "Nuh-uh!" fades ;-) Glad you waited!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn

Thanks Joyce for your great insight... This has spurned a
conversation with hubby about what we are truly wanting to
accomplish with our family and the kids... Lots of great
conversation last night and a knowing that the answers will come
when we continue talking... He's even looking at keeping his part
time job so that I can work on my business more (I make more income)
and go back to unschoolng both of the kids... I'll keep reading and
learning from all of you.

Namaste

Dawn
Tucson, AZ
Zak 11 and Max 7


--- In [email protected], Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
wrote:
>
> > It's only important what the kids need?
>
> The kids didn't choose to be born. You chose to have kids come
into
> your family. They aren't responsible for meeting your needs. You
are.
> To build relationships you need to find ways to meet your needs
> without taking from them.
>
> It sounds harsh put that way but the best path to solving a
problem
> is by seeing the problem as clearly as possible without all the
> pretty window dressing that makes us feel better about it.
>
> > I'm going to have to pick my words more carefully in future.. I
> > didn't realize that they were going to be picked apart! (LOL)
>
> Rather than choosing words carefully to avoid having them
analyzed
> it's even more useful to choose words carefully in order to see
your
> problem as clearly as possible.
>
> If someone says "The kids force me to send them to their rooms,"
she
> can't see solutions as clearly as someone who says "I'm at my
wit's
> end and can't think of anything to do about the fighting but send
the
> kids to their rooms. What do you guys do?"
>
> If we're telling strangers something, then that's what we're
> thinking. We may know it's not literally true, but if we're
phrasing
> it that way we're seeing it that way and it's coloring our
reactions.
>
> > what about how I feel needy and less important or doesn't it work
> > both ways?
>
> It isn't either the kids get their needs met or you do. It's your
> responsibility to make time to meet your needs without stealing
from
> them to do it. (One way would be describing your situation and
asking
> what others have done about it! :-)
>
> Which solution feels less damaging to a relationship?
>
> Your husband saying "I can't take it any longer at work. I'm
totally
> burned out. I'm sending you guys to a cheap motel for the weekend
so
> I can be alone."
>
> Or, "I've started feeling a bit frazzled at work so I'm going to
> start treating myself to a round of golf Friday afternoons."
>
> > I've been talking, but probably not enough, to my mamatribe about
> > putting the idea out to our kids about doing different projects
>
> I think you need to talk to your son instead of other people.
He's
> feeling needy. There's something he's missing and it's coming out
as
> jealousy. You said "whilst he had to go to school". It *is*
natural
> to be jealous when you don't feel you've had the choice to do
something.
>
> Why does he have to go to school? Why can't he have the option of
> going with you or going to the school on a particular day? Has it
> been presented that either he goes to school for the duration or
he
> stays home for the duration? Why not lay out all the school rules
for
> him so he's choosing freely? If he can only miss so many days
before
> he's kicked out, let him decide if a particular trip with the
family
> is worth one of those days.
>
> Being able to choose is *huge* in meeting needs. We can put up
with a
> great deal of nonsense (to get something better) when we're
freely
> choosing to put up with the nonsense rather than when someone
tells
> us we "have to".
>
> When my daughter would say she didn't want to go to an art class
> (that we'd already paid for) I too often knee jerk said "You have
> to." But when I caught myself and realized that no, she didn't
have
> to and gave her the option, she more often than not chose to go.
She
> just wanted the choice to be hers.
>
> > it's that I love what I do for a
> > living and don't want to give it up and how do I balance that
with
> > being with the kids the majority of the time?
>
> If you want to build the relationships with your kids then you
need
> to find a way to do what you love without taking from the kids to
do
> it. Putting your kids aside to do what you enjoy says loud and
clear
> "I love this thing more than I love you."
>
> Or you can recognize and accept that you are making withdrawals
from
> the relationship by putting work first. You can make it up in
other
> ways. (Often it takes far more work to make it up!) Or you can
accept
> that your relationship with the kids won't be all that it can be.
And
> maybe when you're 90 and need your oatmeal pureed they'll let you
> know that they learned from your example and that they've filled
> their time with things they love more than you.
>
> Clarity is important rather than finding various groups who will
> agree to tell you you're doing fine regardless.
>
> Put it this way: if someone decides they want to spank their
kids,
> they can find a group of people who will tell them of course they
do,
> there isn't another choice and they're being great parents. Just
> because they can find people who agree does that make them great
> parents? Does it make what they're doing right?
>
> > In my business I can schedule my clients whenever I want and
most of
> > my business is flexible
>
> Maybe you can find some other parents to trade off with. They can
> take your kids when you're with clients and you can take theirs
at
> another time in trade.
>
> > I think I also feel guilty if I'm answering e-mails and the kids
are
> > playing, like I ought to be with them doing something all the
time.
> > Maybe these are just old messages from my family.
>
> What are your kids saying? Are they asking for you while you
answer
> email? Do you set the email aside to tend to them so that they
see
> that you're doing something while they do something rather than
doing
> something that's more important?
>
> > Thanks Joyce for having me look at this issue from a different
> > perspective. When I first read your e-mail yesterday I was
> > affronted and annoyed and ready to pick you apart.
>
> It *is* annoying when someone expects to hear "Yeah, you're right,
I
> know exactly what you mean and agree with you," and hear
instead "The
> problem isn't quite the way you're seeing it." ;-)
>
> It does help people help themselves, as you found, to wait until
the
> urge to say "Nuh-uh!" fades ;-) Glad you waited!
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>