Deborah Greenspan

I'm thinking about unschooling a child who, even after three years of
homeschooling, needs prompting to do work, and is not a book reader. She is
in 7th grade and struggling in math. She likes animals, bugs, and watching
movies. When she tested below grade level in English, I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on. She came up to
grade level last year in English. She still struggles in math.

How does one unschool a reluctant learner?

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible
before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis

Thanks,

Deborah




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-How does one unschool a reluctant learner? -=-

First, stop schooling her. To unschool, she and you (especially
you) will need to change expectations and habits. This is called
deschooling. There are several good articles here:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

-=-needs prompting to do work, and is not a book reader-=-

Reading is everywhere. If you define reading as "book reading" you
could use a change of view. Is she a magazine reader? Cereal box
reader? Video game instruction reader?

-=-needs prompting to do work-=-

Unschooling can't involve "work." Stop thinking of things in terms
of work one must be prompted to do.

-=-She is
in 7th grade-=-

She won't be, if you stop doing school. My kids didn't go to school
and were never in a grade. My youngest is 15. Before that she was
14. You've described your daughter in school terms.

-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-

That's a good way to make her stop liking movies and not to be too
crazy about you.

I recommend the deschooling site above and some reading here:
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
http://sandradodd.com/help
http://sandradodd.com/math
http://sandradodd.com/reading

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Greenspan

OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not? Where
are the parameters?





All the best,



Deborah



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers



-=-How does one unschool a reluctant learner? -=-

First, stop schooling her. To unschool, she and you (especially
you) will need to change expectations and habits. This is called
deschooling. There are several good articles here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/deschooling> com/deschooling

-=-needs prompting to do work, and is not a book reader-=-

Reading is everywhere. If you define reading as "book reading" you
could use a change of view. Is she a magazine reader? Cereal box
reader? Video game instruction reader?

-=-needs prompting to do work-=-

Unschooling can't involve "work." Stop thinking of things in terms
of work one must be prompted to do.

-=-She is
in 7th grade-=-

She won't be, if you stop doing school. My kids didn't go to school
and were never in a grade. My youngest is 15. Before that she was
14. You've described your daughter in school terms.

-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-

That's a good way to make her stop liking movies and not to be too
crazy about you.

I recommend the deschooling site above and some reading here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/beginning> com/beginning
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/help> com/help
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/math> com/math
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd.com/reading> com/reading

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "Deborah Greenspan"
<dgreens1@...> wrote:
>She likes animals, bugs, and watching
> movies.

Hey, she sounds like fun! Does she like movies *about* bugs? There's
a whole glorious genre to explore, from the tacky B-movies to the
really chic artsy films like *Microcosmos* - has she seen that? Its
scrumptious!

That may all sound beside the point since the question was:

> How does one unschool a reluctant learner?

But really, the difference between a "reluctant" learner and an
enthusiastic one is that for the latter learning is part of her own
internal process of joyful discovery. There's nothing joyful about
being "made" to read or "do math".

What would happen if you helped her explore her interests rather
than insisting she ingest something unpalattable to her? Where might
she go, what might she do with animals or bugs or movies or some
combination - or maybe one of those would lead her in a direction
neither of you can yet imagine.

She may not be able to articulate what she *wants* to do at this
point, so you may have to offer or strew ideas - but they should be
Fun ideas, offered for the potential joy, not entomology textbooks
or worksheets on animal tracks. Here's something fun, although you
may be half a world away for all I know, its a neat idea:

http://www.life.uiuc.edu/entomology/egsa/ifff.html
(Its an Insect Fear Film Festival and there's a list of all the
films they've shown in the past if she's interested).

There's also no need to "tie in" to some strange new curriculum of
Animals-Bugs-and-Film, but the bug thing is really exciting to *me*
so I can't resist. That's a place to *start*, but don't discount
anything that you think she'd enjoy.

---Meredith (Mo 5, Ray 13)

Gold Standard

-
> How does one unschool a reluctant learner?

>>What would happen if you helped her explore her interests rather
>>than insisting she ingest something unpalattable to her?<<

I just wanted to add the thought that for a while, you may need to just sit
back and relax, and let her sit back and relax. She's been through a lot of
pushing. From what you have presented, she seems a bit shut down, which may
look like she isn't "motivated". That is a typical response of schooling,
whether in a school or at home. Right now you both would probably benefit
greatly by just hanging out together. Think "joy"...what would bring us joy
right now in this moment...hot chocolate? a juicy movie? watching a favorite
show on TV? Joy is the place to begin...

Jacki

Deborah Greenspan

Thanks, Jacki and all.



Is there a time when a parent thinks, "This isn't working"? What is the
marker of success or failure in unschooling?



All the best,



Deborah



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Gold Standard
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 12:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers




-
> How does one unschool a reluctant learner?

>>What would happen if you helped her explore her interests rather
>>than insisting she ingest something unpalattable to her?<<

I just wanted to add the thought that for a while, you may need to just sit
back and relax, and let her sit back and relax. She's been through a lot of
pushing. From what you have presented, she seems a bit shut down, which may
look like she isn't "motivated". That is a typical response of schooling,
whether in a school or at home. Right now you both would probably benefit
greatly by just hanging out together. Think "joy"...what would bring us joy
right now in this moment...hot chocolate? a juicy movie? watching a favorite
show on TV? Joy is the place to begin...

Jacki





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kristenhendricks55

-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-


Just curious here, why does she have to watch a movie with subtitles
on?

Im going to take a guess here, but I bet you don't watch all your
movies with them on. Because I know I can't focus one bit on the
movie because I can't help be distracted by the words at the bottom.

Why not juts let her enjoy the movie? Eventually she will see that
mom gets to enjoy something she doesn't and that will wreak havoc on
your relationship with her.



--- In [email protected], "Deborah Greenspan"
<dgreens1@...> wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about unschooling a child who, even after three years
of
> homeschooling, needs prompting to do work, and is not a book
reader. She is
> in 7th grade and struggling in math. She likes animals, bugs, and
watching
> movies. When she tested below grade level in English, I told her
if she were
> to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on. She
came up to
> grade level last year in English. She still struggles in math.
>
> How does one unschool a reluctant learner?
>
> "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared
impossible
> before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
>
> Thanks,
>
> Deborah
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Gold Standard

>>OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not?
Where
>>are the parameters?<<

Have you read through the links Sandra sent you Deborah? The idea of
"progress" is another one from school-think. None of us know what are
children "should" be doing, or where they "should" be...only they do, and
they learn this through freedom, support, understanding, and a life with
interesting things going on.

I'll give you an example from our home. I have four kids. They are 18, 16,
14 and 13. We've had many things going on in our life and through watching
them, and through having many things going on that seemed to interest them,
they have been drawn to particular interests. I might even call them
passions. Daughter is in a professional dance company, son is in two jazz
bands, son is a poet and performance artist who has performed and helped
organize events, son is a video genius, well-belted in karate, and is great
in air soft tournaments, which he has organized at our house.

They are all happy. They have fulfilling lives. They are smart. They
navigate the world easily. They are responsible and kind. Two have jobs.
They are seen as responsible, trustworthy and bright by outside people,
including their bosses. One says he is applying to music colleges next year,
and one says she is applying to Julliard after numerous performing in
musicals. What needs measuring?

Jacki

Gold Standard

>>OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not?
Where
>>are the parameters?<<

I also wanted to mention that I think your question is coming from seeing
that your daughter doesn't seem to be interested in anything right now. That
is what most kids seem like after being in structured school settings. There
is a decompression time that can take months...and it is necessary for the
healing of the child and for the child to be able to trust that she is
really free and supported. It takes time. And trust. It is from that place
of feeling free and supported that our kids begin to get interested in life
again, like they were before schooling started.

Jacki

Sandra Dodd

-=-OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or
not? Where
are the parameters?-=-

Jacki's response was good. I'd like to look at it from another angle.

Parameters are limiting.
To put something inside a pre-designed box and decide whether it's a
good fit involves stasis.

Unschooling isn't about stasis. It's about growth and change.

While people are growing and changing they're learning When you stop
them to measure, they're not learning. When you look at parameters
instead of looking at your child, you're not learning.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carole Aguilar

My brother was described as retarded and my mother was advised to place him in an institution by his elementary school. He actuzally was dyslexic and when he was finally helped to learn to read he never read book, but when he was 8 liked to read manuals on car repair and did neighborhood car repairs. He became an executive at Oracle and now owns his own company.


----- Original Message ----
From: Deborah Greenspan <dgreens1@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:01:24 PM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not? Where
are the parameters?

All the best,

Deborah

_____

From: AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:14 PM
To: AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

-=-How does one unschool a reluctant learner? -=-

First, stop schooling her. To unschool, she and you (especially
you) will need to change expectations and habits. This is called
deschooling. There are several good articles here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/deschooling> com/deschooling

-=-needs prompting to do work, and is not a book reader-=-

Reading is everywhere. If you define reading as "book reading" you
could use a change of view. Is she a magazine reader? Cereal box
reader? Video game instruction reader?

-=-needs prompting to do work-=-

Unschooling can't involve "work." Stop thinking of things in terms
of work one must be prompted to do.

-=-She is
in 7th grade-=-

She won't be, if you stop doing school. My kids didn't go to school
and were never in a grade. My youngest is 15. Before that she was
14. You've described your daughter in school terms.

-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-

That's a good way to make her stop liking movies and not to be too
crazy about you.

I recommend the deschooling site above and some reading here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/beginning> com/beginning
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/help> com/help
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/math> com/math
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/reading> com/reading

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L Coburn

<<<< Is there a time when a parent thinks, "This isn't working"? What is the
marker of success or failure in unschooling? >>>>>

If something is "going wrong" at my home, it is never because of
Unschooling. It's usually because I'm doing something unhelpful - I'm caught
up in wanting to be in control, I'm caught up in regretful thinking, I'm
distracted by something, I've got PMS. Jayn is a really good marker of my
emotional state.

Things that are problems at my home aren't about learning or academics. They
are always in the broad arena of Jayn's behavior towards us. At no time do I
ever think that schooling would be the solution. The solution is always
contained in a box marked "More focused attention from Mum and Dad".

I suspect that any time a parent new to unschooling starts thinking "This
isn't working" it is because they are holding on to an expectation.

Expectations can get in the way of seeing what is really happening.

When Jayn was newborn, James and I would do what I suspect many parents do,
and wake up in the night to check that she was still breathing. She was so
tiny and breathed so quietly that even sleeping next to her we couldn't
always hear her, so we would put a hand on her to feel the movement as
gently as possible to not disturb her. Eventually she grew bigger and older
and we were able to let go of our anxiety and trust that she was breathing
and get on with just appreciating how beautiful she was.

Coming to Unschooling is a bit like that. At first you may feel the need to
check that your child is learning, so try to do it without disturbing her.
Eventually - or probably quickly - it will become abundantly clear that she
is learning and you can let go of that checking, and just appreciate her
wonder.

I started saying something about long term investments paying off, but James
called me on that idea, saying that looking at it in terms of payoffs isn't
helpful. James says, if you must have a payoff, the payoff is that your
child is allowed and enabled to become a passionate human being, happy in
their life, happy with their freedom to choose and engage in their passion
today.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date: 2/9/2007
4:06 PM

Carole Aguilar

I have always told my patients (new moms) to go home and trust their gut. Thats what they need to do to survive. I decided to school Jonah because his teacher was abusing him and humiliating him. Julia (7) however was doing beautifully in school. I took her out because I trusted my gut. She is always so touchy feely and clingy all evening and night. So much so that I found myself always removing her arm from my chest and from around my neck (I breastfed each of them for 2.5 years). I realized that she was just not getting enough of me. I never had time to do homework with her, the older kids came first with their hours of work. She also said that she missed me when she was at school. Of course my entire family are shocked, flabbergasted, appaled and can't understand why i took my kids out. h They have been warning me that I made a huge mistake. Fortunately I have done attachment parenting before i knew what it was - i listened to my kids. If they wanted me -
they had me. If they had to be in arms - even when my eldest was 3 - she was in arms.

Listen to your kids. They never lie.

Carole


----- Original Message ----
From: Deborah Greenspan <dgreens1@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2007 1:01:24 PM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not? Where
are the parameters?

All the best,

Deborah

_____

From: AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:14 PM
To: AlwaysLearning@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

-=-How does one unschool a reluctant learner? -=-

First, stop schooling her. To unschool, she and you (especially
you) will need to change expectations and habits. This is called
deschooling. There are several good articles here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/deschooling> com/deschooling

-=-needs prompting to do work, and is not a book reader-=-

Reading is everywhere. If you define reading as "book reading" you
could use a change of view. Is she a magazine reader? Cereal box
reader? Video game instruction reader?

-=-needs prompting to do work-=-

Unschooling can't involve "work." Stop thinking of things in terms
of work one must be prompted to do.

-=-She is
in 7th grade-=-

She won't be, if you stop doing school. My kids didn't go to school
and were never in a grade. My youngest is 15. Before that she was
14. You've described your daughter in school terms.

-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-

That's a good way to make her stop liking movies and not to be too
crazy about you.

I recommend the deschooling site above and some reading here:
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/beginning> com/beginning
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/help> com/help
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/math> com/math
http://sandradodd. <http://sandradodd. com/reading> com/reading

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Greenspan

I thought it was a compromise to not having to read books. Also, I thought
it would be like passive range of motion. Actually, she did improve her test
scores. No, we're not unschooling now. I am considering all options.



All the best,



Deborah



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of kristenhendricks55
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers



-=-She likes ... watching
movies. ... I told her if she were
to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on.-=-

Just curious here, why does she have to watch a movie with subtitles
on?

Im going to take a guess here, but I bet you don't watch all your
movies with them on. Because I know I can't focus one bit on the
movie because I can't help be distracted by the words at the bottom.

Why not juts let her enjoy the movie? Eventually she will see that
mom gets to enjoy something she doesn't and that will wreak havoc on
your relationship with her.

--- In AlwaysLearning@ <mailto:AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Deborah Greenspan"
<dgreens1@...> wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about unschooling a child who, even after three years
of
> homeschooling, needs prompting to do work, and is not a book
reader. She is
> in 7th grade and struggling in math. She likes animals, bugs, and
watching
> movies. When she tested below grade level in English, I told her
if she were
> to watch her DVD's, she had to have the English subtitles on. She
came up to
> grade level last year in English. She still struggles in math.
>
> How does one unschool a reluctant learner?
>
> "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared
impossible
> before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
>
> Thanks,
>
> Deborah
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Greenspan

It is a different world, and I don't know if I have the faith and patience
without feedback or evidence. Is it a transition? Do some people make it and
others not?



All the best,



Deborah



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Gold Standard
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 6:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers





>>OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not?
Where
>>are the parameters?<<

Have you read through the links Sandra sent you Deborah? The idea of
"progress" is another one from school-think. None of us know what are
children "should" be doing, or where they "should" be...only they do, and
they learn this through freedom, support, understanding, and a life with
interesting things going on.

I'll give you an example from our home. I have four kids. They are 18, 16,
14 and 13. We've had many things going on in our life and through watching
them, and through having many things going on that seemed to interest them,
they have been drawn to particular interests. I might even call them
passions. Daughter is in a professional dance company, son is in two jazz
bands, son is a poet and performance artist who has performed and helped
organize events, son is a video genius, well-belted in karate, and is great
in air soft tournaments, which he has organized at our house.

They are all happy. They have fulfilling lives. They are smart. They
navigate the world easily. They are responsible and kind. Two have jobs.
They are seen as responsible, trustworthy and bright by outside people,
including their bosses. One says he is applying to music colleges next year,
and one says she is applying to Julliard after numerous performing in
musicals. What needs measuring?

Jacki





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Greenspan

Oh, that's a beautiful way to explain it, thank you. Has anyone on this list
kids gone to Grace Llewellyn's camp?

All the best,

Deborah


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Robyn L Coburn
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 1:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

<<<< Is there a time when a parent thinks, "This isn't working"? What is the
marker of success or failure in unschooling? >>>>>

If something is "going wrong" at my home, it is never because of
Unschooling. It's usually because I'm doing something unhelpful - I'm caught
up in wanting to be in control, I'm caught up in regretful thinking, I'm
distracted by something, I've got PMS. Jayn is a really good marker of my
emotional state.

Things that are problems at my home aren't about learning or academics. They
are always in the broad arena of Jayn's behavior towards us. At no time do I
ever think that schooling would be the solution. The solution is always
contained in a box marked "More focused attention from Mum and Dad".

I suspect that any time a parent new to unschooling starts thinking "This
isn't working" it is because they are holding on to an expectation.

Expectations can get in the way of seeing what is really happening.

When Jayn was newborn, James and I would do what I suspect many parents do,
and wake up in the night to check that she was still breathing. She was so
tiny and breathed so quietly that even sleeping next to her we couldn't
always hear her, so we would put a hand on her to feel the movement as
gently as possible to not disturb her. Eventually she grew bigger and older
and we were able to let go of our anxiety and trust that she was breathing
and get on with just appreciating how beautiful she was.

Coming to Unschooling is a bit like that. At first you may feel the need to
check that your child is learning, so try to do it without disturbing her.
Eventually - or probably quickly - it will become abundantly clear that she
is learning and you can let go of that checking, and just appreciate her
wonder.

I started saying something about long term investments paying off, but James
called me on that idea, saying that looking at it in terms of payoffs isn't
helpful. James says, if you must have a payoff, the payoff is that your
child is allowed and enabled to become a passionate human being, happy in
their life, happy with their freedom to choose and engage in their passion
today.

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.33/678 - Release Date: 2/9/2007
4:06 PM





Yahoo! Groups Links

Deborah Greenspan

OK It feels scary.



All the best,



Deborah



_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Gold Standard
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 6:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers




>>OK. So how do you measure progress or neglect? Self-motivation or not?
Where
>>are the parameters?<<

I also wanted to mention that I think your question is coming from seeing
that your daughter doesn't seem to be interested in anything right now. That
is what most kids seem like after being in structured school settings. There
is a decompression time that can take months...and it is necessary for the
healing of the child and for the child to be able to trust that she is
really free and supported. It takes time. And trust. It is from that place
of feeling free and supported that our kids begin to get interested in life
again, like they were before schooling started.

Jacki





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

>
> When Jayn was newborn, James and I would do what I suspect many parents
> do,
> and wake up in the night to check that she was still breathing. She was so
> tiny and breathed so quietly that even sleeping next to her we couldn't
> always hear her, so we would put a hand on her to feel the movement as
> gently as possible to not disturb her. Eventually she grew bigger and
> older
> and we were able to let go of our anxiety and trust that she was breathing
> and get on with just appreciating how beautiful she was.
>
> Coming to Unschooling is a bit like that. At first you may feel the need
> to
> check that your child is learning, so try to do it without disturbing her.
> Eventually - or probably quickly - it will become abundantly clear that
> she
> is learning and you can let go of that checking, and just appreciate her
> wonder.
>

Oh, Robyn, that is so beautiful.

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

-=-I thought it was a compromise to not having to read books.-=-

You won't need to compromise if you think in terms of how *LEARNING*
works instead of continuing to look at the world through school-
colored glasses


-=-Also, I thought it would be like passive range of motion.-=-

"Passive range of motion" doesn't mean anything, does it?

Passive mastery, did you mean?

Either way, it doesn't help people want to read.

-=-No, we're not unschooling now. I am considering all options.-=-

Read here for a few days, because good answers to all the issues
you're bringing up have been collected over the years.

http://sandradodd.com/beginning
http://sandradodd.com/reading

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't know if I have the faith and patience
without feedback or evidence.-=-

"Feedback"?
Look directly at your child without looking at test scores and grade
levels and comparisons. If you can't do that, you will have some
evidence that the problem is on your end.

You have lots of choices. You can send her to school. You can do
school at home, with a curriculum and a schedule and grades. You can
do other kinds of homeschooling.

If you want the benefits unschoolers are talking about, you have to
unschool.
If you're going to unschool you must (no option, it won't work
otherwise) deschool.

You'll have to take all the school parts of your life out--out of
your head, out of your vocabulary, out of your schedule...

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Read all the links there, too, to others' deschooling articles.

-=-Is it a transition? Do some people make it and
others not?-=-

Yes. Deschooling is the transition. Some people don't want to
change, they only want their children to change. They can't unschool.

If you want to change, those links above will help you.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vida

Robyn (and group),

I haven't officially introduced myself to the group. Been lurking
and re-learning things I have forgotten. My name is Vida and I live
on a small greek island, a few years ago i was on the unschooling.com
message board and some of the names are familiar to me.

I just wanted to say that this description of unschooling hit home.
I do feel I need to check to see if they're learning and feel relief
when they come up with something "schoolish" like 4 + 4 = 8 (in which
I slyly stuck in "yes it is, just like 2X4 is 8 also"). Sometimes
things like that slip out of my mouth. But at least I'm not pushing
the matter.

Thank you for this. I will keep it in my mind and heart and pull
this image up when I need it.

Vida

Sylvia Toyama

It is a different world, and I don't know if I have the faith and patience
without feedback or evidence. Is it a transition? Do some people make it and
others not?

****

The feedback/evidence we get is joyous, shining children who live free lives.

Sure, some folks don't make the leap successfully, but worrying about that won't bring joy into my family's life today. Start with today - do what you love, help your children to do what they love. Then do it again 'today' every day. I've found that each time I make a step towards the life I want, it gets easier to make the next step the next day.

Sylvia


---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

Hi Vida -- I remember you from unschooling.com.

Sylvia

****

I haven't officially introduced myself to the group. Been lurking
and re-learning things I have forgotten. My name is Vida and I live
on a small greek island, a few years ago i was on the unschooling. com
message board and some of the names are familiar to me.



---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Crystal Miller

<<Expectations can get in the way of seeing what is really happening.>>

I like stories about ideas and concepts because they help me to 'get it'. Here is a story about my expectations and the realization that they were 'mine' and not my daughters. My daughter was happy and full-filled in her silent moment while my head raced with expectations. When you see your daughter sitting silently, try not to disturb her. She might be sailing along and your verbal expectations, wants, and concerns could be the iceberg that sinks her.

Typing from experience here. Don't sink your kiddo.
http://daikinicrossroads.blogspot.com/2006/10/free-kid-makes-pirate-boat-to-sail-away.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Robyn,

Like several others, I just love this description:

>When Jayn was newborn, James and I would do what I suspect many parents do,
>and wake up in the night to check that she was still breathing. She was so
>tiny and breathed so quietly that even sleeping next to her we couldn't
>always hear her, so we would put a hand on her to feel the movement as
>gently as possible to not disturb her. Eventually she grew bigger and older
>and we were able to let go of our anxiety and trust that she was breathing
>and get on with just appreciating how beautiful she was.
>
>Coming to Unschooling is a bit like that. At first you may feel the need to
>check that your child is learning, so try to do it without disturbing her.
>Eventually - or probably quickly - it will become abundantly clear that she
>is learning and you can let go of that checking, and just appreciate her
>wonder.
>
May I have your permission to quote this in something I am writing which
may or may not end up in our local support group newsletter?

Cally
Kauroa, New Zealand

Robyn L Coburn

Sure - anyone from the list can quote me any time they think it will help.

Robyn L. Coburn

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Cally Brown
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 11:35 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Special Needs Unschool: Mine or Hers

Robyn,

Like several others, I just love this description:

>When Jayn was newborn, James and I would do what I suspect many parents do,
>and wake up in the night to check that she was still breathing. She was so
>tiny and breathed so quietly that even sleeping next to her we couldn't
>always hear her, so we would put a hand on her to feel the movement as
>gently as possible to not disturb her. Eventually she grew bigger and older
>and we were able to let go of our anxiety and trust that she was breathing
>and get on with just appreciating how beautiful she was.
>
>Coming to Unschooling is a bit like that. At first you may feel the need to
>check that your child is learning, so try to do it without disturbing her.
>Eventually - or probably quickly - it will become abundantly clear that she
>is learning and you can let go of that checking, and just appreciate her
>wonder.
>
May I have your permission to quote this in something I am writing which
may or may not end up in our local support group newsletter?

Cally
Kauroa, New Zealand




Yahoo! Groups Links




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Vida

Hi Sylvia,

It's wonderful to re-connect again... in more ways than one.
Learning to be a yes-mom again, but still having difficulty when the
fighting begins... not sure how to handle the onslaught of anger from
Athena (dd). It breaks my heart to see her like that. At least
there is progress. Today, when she flew off the handle (she's 7)
because dh went out with a friend and didn't take her and so resorted
to saying hurtful things to me (which I looked beyond to the core...
tried to.... made it there but then got lost in my own junk and we
ended up spatting), but I hung in there and made myself shut up and
stop trying to "fix" things. We got to the root of the problem, and
that is that she feels she doesn't get out enough. So we talked
about ways of getting out more (we live in the BOONIES with no car
when dh isn't home so getting to the village isn't easy). But from
being here (this group) I realized that she feels a need, and if we
take her out plenty of times to eat, she'll feel full and when her
daddy goes out again, she probably won't freak out. So we're saving
up for a few nights on the town..... er.... village.

Hugs,
Vida

Robyn L Coburn

<<<< OK It feels scary.>>>>

<<<< Do some people make it and others not? >>>>

One of the big ideas in discussing Unschooling is the concept of fear and
the idea that living in fear is a choice. There are tools that we can use to
dispel fear.

Deborah there is a theme permeating many of your questioning posts which is
that you seem to want to hear about failures. You are not the first person
to come to the lists and want essentially statistics, or want to focus on
the problems to be overcome.

This idea that a certain proportion must fail (so how do we avoid being in
that number) is SCHOOLTHINK! It is an assumption based on the experience of
being schooled and living with schooling because in school a certain
proportion of children do fail. They must fail because that is how the bell
curve works. And if too many of them are failing by the school's criteria,
they change the criteria to keep the bell curve even.

There are parents who don't Unschool successfully and insist their children
go back into school. There are also people who "try an unschooling approach"
for certain topics or subjects.

These people aren't getting to Unschooling. They are putting their feet in
the water and calling it swimming. Then they wonder why they aren't reaching
the opposite side of the pool.

The people who continue to post on this and the sister lists are people who
are swimming. This list is populated with success.

Tools for dispelling fear:

One that has worked well for me is to examine the fear. Is it rational or
irrational? Is it some unexamined clichéd statement put in my head by my own
nutty mother or a pat phrase from the media? Does my observation of my child
or other people's children bear out the fear?

Another is knowledge. This is a really useful one. Research the real
statistics. Look at the real experiences of people who are Unschooling.

Stay in the present. Look at what your child is doing today, instead of
worrying about the future, which will come anyway. What if some horrible
event took your daughter from you? Would you be regretting the math test she
didn't take next week?

Focus on success. Focus on the positive outcomes. Learn what people are
doing right, instead of seeking out what they may be doing badly.

Peter Kowalski has a column in each issue of Life Learning magazine
(www.lifelearningmagazine.com ) where he interviews grown up Unschoolers
about their lives and where they are now. By and large they are very
positive. I suspect that in the interest of being fair and balanced he asks
them a question along the lines of "negative experiences from Unschooling"
or things not learned that were subsequently a problem. Much of the time
these young adults do have some issue or skill that they didn't learn while
unschooling that they found they needed for their profession.

So what do they do about it? They identify the problem and set about finding
the information, learning the skill or working around the lack - hugely
successfully.

What they don't do is throw their hands up and say, "Gosh Unschooling has
made me failure, I must be stupid, learning new things is hard" or any of
the sad, discouraged mental tapes that go through the minds of schooled kids
who feel like they are failures, or have had their personal interests
belittled and dreams squashed by well meaning but unsupportive conventional
parents.

The only regret that people express about Unschooling is that they waited to
begin.

School will always be there. If for your family Unschooling does not lead to
a happier, more connected family with freedom and joy abounding, school will
still be available. But don't count on it - don't live with the idea that
she has to keep up just in case, or you will be foiling the process before
it starts. The longer your dd is in school, the longer she will need to
deschool. (Approx. 1 month per school year). Every time you say something
like "Why don't you do this math page" or "Tell me about this book" (with
the intention of gauging her reading competence) or "No more tv today, do
something worthwhile" it is like Snakes and Ladders - back you go to the
beginning of deschooling.

Kids don't fail at Unschooling.

Robyn L. Coburn





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Sandra Dodd

-=-
Kids don't fail at Unschooling. -=-

They can have it sabotaged for them, though. (But that goes back to
parental failure.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Thanks
Cally

Robyn L Coburn wrote:

>Sure - anyone from the list can quote me any time they think it will help.
>
>Robyn L. Coburn
>
>