house cleaning
Gold Standard
I'm sure this is an old topic, but I haven't dealt with it in a long time
and have been pretty aggravated lately, a sure sign I need help and new
perspective.
We have regular family meetings to establish things that need to be done
around the house, or to change the way we do something because it isn't
working, or its boring, or whatever. We all have equal say, unless my
husband or I have a particular belief that we think is important enough to
call the shot (usually having to do with money), and we'll say that there is
something that we don't have negotiation room for (this rarely happens
though...the kids make great decisions with monetary information as well as
other things).
Lately, the house has been trashed. It used to be that my concerns about
this expressed at meetings were taken seriously and solutions were
brainstormed and implemented. But lately, I've been blown off. I guess I'm
sounding like a broken record (though I haven't said anything for at least
three months). I am not prudish about a clean house...far from it! But I do
have minimum requirements...the front entranceway needs to be passable, food
needs to be put away and dishes clean within a day of using them, etc. I
just like to keep the bugs at bay! And I do want the entrance to the house,
the first thing a "guest" sees, to be tidy. There's lots of other spaces to
mess up. My three boys seem to have no interest or care about any of this.
Come to think of it, my husband either. My daughter and I are the only ones
who agree on this. So, I don't want to be low-level pissed all the time
because it's a mess and I and my daughter are the only ones who want it
clean, nor do I necessarily want to play this heavy-handedly and make it
happen. Wait. I take that back. I DO want to play this heavy-handedly, but
my unschooling brain says, "No! Don't! You know better!"
How do you incorporate house keeping into your unschooling and how do you
decide what needs to be done when and by whom?
Any suggestions about the unschooling way to get what I want done :) ?
(that was written as a joke, but I do want some suggestions about why this
isn't working for me right now).
Thank you!
Jacki
and have been pretty aggravated lately, a sure sign I need help and new
perspective.
We have regular family meetings to establish things that need to be done
around the house, or to change the way we do something because it isn't
working, or its boring, or whatever. We all have equal say, unless my
husband or I have a particular belief that we think is important enough to
call the shot (usually having to do with money), and we'll say that there is
something that we don't have negotiation room for (this rarely happens
though...the kids make great decisions with monetary information as well as
other things).
Lately, the house has been trashed. It used to be that my concerns about
this expressed at meetings were taken seriously and solutions were
brainstormed and implemented. But lately, I've been blown off. I guess I'm
sounding like a broken record (though I haven't said anything for at least
three months). I am not prudish about a clean house...far from it! But I do
have minimum requirements...the front entranceway needs to be passable, food
needs to be put away and dishes clean within a day of using them, etc. I
just like to keep the bugs at bay! And I do want the entrance to the house,
the first thing a "guest" sees, to be tidy. There's lots of other spaces to
mess up. My three boys seem to have no interest or care about any of this.
Come to think of it, my husband either. My daughter and I are the only ones
who agree on this. So, I don't want to be low-level pissed all the time
because it's a mess and I and my daughter are the only ones who want it
clean, nor do I necessarily want to play this heavy-handedly and make it
happen. Wait. I take that back. I DO want to play this heavy-handedly, but
my unschooling brain says, "No! Don't! You know better!"
How do you incorporate house keeping into your unschooling and how do you
decide what needs to be done when and by whom?
Any suggestions about the unschooling way to get what I want done :) ?
(that was written as a joke, but I do want some suggestions about why this
isn't working for me right now).
Thank you!
Jacki
Fetteroll
on 9/16/04 1:47 AM, Gold Standard at contact@... wrote:
I walk in the door ;-) It wouldn't help if someone nagged me. What I need
are places to put common things that I bring in.
So maybe look at what gets put there and find ways to manage it. If it's
shoes, put a bin there, then clean it out occasionally to remove shoes that
aren't used regularly. Get hooks for coats and regularly put away the ones
that don't get used much so there aren't too many for the hooks.
If it's mail, get a mail station with cubbies and put a trash can beneath
it.
One good suggestion from How To Talk So Kids Will Listen is just use one
word to remind someone. If it's a common thing they're just not noticing,
like taking a dish into the kitch, just say "Dish."
If they're passing by and empty handed say "Could you take a load into the
kitchen please?" But assume you'll have to make passes too.
Joyce
> And I do want the entrance to the house,I can pretty much trash the kitchen -- the entry to the house -- as soon as
> the first thing a "guest" sees, to be tidy.
I walk in the door ;-) It wouldn't help if someone nagged me. What I need
are places to put common things that I bring in.
So maybe look at what gets put there and find ways to manage it. If it's
shoes, put a bin there, then clean it out occasionally to remove shoes that
aren't used regularly. Get hooks for coats and regularly put away the ones
that don't get used much so there aren't too many for the hooks.
If it's mail, get a mail station with cubbies and put a trash can beneath
it.
One good suggestion from How To Talk So Kids Will Listen is just use one
word to remind someone. If it's a common thing they're just not noticing,
like taking a dish into the kitch, just say "Dish."
If they're passing by and empty handed say "Could you take a load into the
kitchen please?" But assume you'll have to make passes too.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 12:26:25 AM, contact@... writes:
<< So, I don't want to be low-level pissed all the time
because it's a mess and I and my daughter are the only ones who want it
clean, nor do I necessarily want to play this heavy-handedly and make it
happen. Wait. I take that back. I DO want to play this heavy-handedly, but
my unschooling brain says, "No! Don't! You know better!" >>
My best advice is to learn to get over the low-level resentment.
If you do what you do lovingly and generously, they'll be more loving and
generous in return. It might not show right away (probably won't) but the
benefit to the family of you just moving things sweetly instead of angrily will be
immediate, and the benefit to you of not feeling that others aren't meeting
your requirements will be immediate.
-=-I do have minimum requirements...-=-
Despite the claim of fair family meetings, this does make it sound as though
at least in your own head it's your house and others have requirements of your
creation.
Maybe you could have a meeting with all the voices in your head and tell your
mom and your grandmothers and your theory-mostly feminist friends and jealous
other female voices in there whoever they are that your children's safety and
peace and happiness are more important to you than the old tapes in your head
that say "have to" and "should."
-=-Any suggestions about the unschooling way to get what I want done :) ?
(that was written as a joke, but I do want some suggestions about why this
isn't working for me right now).-=-
I used to get very cranky that the kids weren't doing what I wanted them to
do, but because of other people's writings at unschooling.com (the late
departed, or else the in-a-coma unschooling.com) I changed. Everybody's happier.
The house isn't as clean as an imagination could make it, but an imagination
won't make it clean, and the damage to the relationships would cast a sad layer
of emotional dirt over it anyway if I DID force my way.
I've collected some stories here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Sandra
<< So, I don't want to be low-level pissed all the time
because it's a mess and I and my daughter are the only ones who want it
clean, nor do I necessarily want to play this heavy-handedly and make it
happen. Wait. I take that back. I DO want to play this heavy-handedly, but
my unschooling brain says, "No! Don't! You know better!" >>
My best advice is to learn to get over the low-level resentment.
If you do what you do lovingly and generously, they'll be more loving and
generous in return. It might not show right away (probably won't) but the
benefit to the family of you just moving things sweetly instead of angrily will be
immediate, and the benefit to you of not feeling that others aren't meeting
your requirements will be immediate.
-=-I do have minimum requirements...-=-
Despite the claim of fair family meetings, this does make it sound as though
at least in your own head it's your house and others have requirements of your
creation.
Maybe you could have a meeting with all the voices in your head and tell your
mom and your grandmothers and your theory-mostly feminist friends and jealous
other female voices in there whoever they are that your children's safety and
peace and happiness are more important to you than the old tapes in your head
that say "have to" and "should."
-=-Any suggestions about the unschooling way to get what I want done :) ?
(that was written as a joke, but I do want some suggestions about why this
isn't working for me right now).-=-
I used to get very cranky that the kids weren't doing what I wanted them to
do, but because of other people's writings at unschooling.com (the late
departed, or else the in-a-coma unschooling.com) I changed. Everybody's happier.
The house isn't as clean as an imagination could make it, but an imagination
won't make it clean, and the damage to the relationships would cast a sad layer
of emotional dirt over it anyway if I DID force my way.
I've collected some stories here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Sandra
Sondra Carr
You know - something I've found actually helped me on both sides of this
issue - both helping my kids (and husband) to see a reason for keeping
things relatively neat AND helping myself to lighten up my own requirements
was to get out and among other people and their homes more. It sounds
strange, but the more we see how other people actually live (as opposed to
the fantasy in our minds - fed by TV or magazine pictures of perfectly kept
places) the less we stress as we begin to compare our living space with
other actual living spaces. And if the kids actually are far below normal
standards, they too will get the hint by more exposure to real life
situations - and no one has to get upset or impose any standards on anyone
else. Another thing that worked well for me was to plan more activities with
other people in OUR home. Everyone likes to have a clean space when company
is coming and it even motivated me to Herculean feats when I knew there was
a party the day after tomorrow. This is also coming from a woman who used to
have to fantasize that the dirty dishes were alien ships and cleaning them
would kill their leaders.
Sondra
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
My best advice is to learn to get over the low-level resentment.
If you do what you do lovingly and generously, they'll be more loving and
generous in return. It might not show right away (probably won't) but the
benefit to the family of you just moving things sweetly instead of angrily
will be
immediate, and the benefit to you of not feeling that others aren't meeting
your requirements will be immediate.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
issue - both helping my kids (and husband) to see a reason for keeping
things relatively neat AND helping myself to lighten up my own requirements
was to get out and among other people and their homes more. It sounds
strange, but the more we see how other people actually live (as opposed to
the fantasy in our minds - fed by TV or magazine pictures of perfectly kept
places) the less we stress as we begin to compare our living space with
other actual living spaces. And if the kids actually are far below normal
standards, they too will get the hint by more exposure to real life
situations - and no one has to get upset or impose any standards on anyone
else. Another thing that worked well for me was to plan more activities with
other people in OUR home. Everyone likes to have a clean space when company
is coming and it even motivated me to Herculean feats when I knew there was
a party the day after tomorrow. This is also coming from a woman who used to
have to fantasize that the dirty dishes were alien ships and cleaning them
would kill their leaders.
Sondra
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
My best advice is to learn to get over the low-level resentment.
If you do what you do lovingly and generously, they'll be more loving and
generous in return. It might not show right away (probably won't) but the
benefit to the family of you just moving things sweetly instead of angrily
will be
immediate, and the benefit to you of not feeling that others aren't meeting
your requirements will be immediate.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perk Ster
I am a complete newbie here so I hope you don't mind my butting in,
but I have a GN once a month to motivate me to clean deeply at least
once, and I also encourage friends to come over to keep a low level
matenence all the time. And I instituted a nightly clean up of
trippup toys when my son was young to set the routine early, and
having said all that I still had to join flylady.net to avoid the
nightly cleaning keeping us all up till midnight. (and that is alot
of ands! English class is not my strong suit)
but I have a GN once a month to motivate me to clean deeply at least
once, and I also encourage friends to come over to keep a low level
matenence all the time. And I instituted a nightly clean up of
trippup toys when my son was young to set the routine early, and
having said all that I still had to join flylady.net to avoid the
nightly cleaning keeping us all up till midnight. (and that is alot
of ands! English class is not my strong suit)
Gold Standard
>> I am a complete newbie here so I hope you don't mind my butting in <<Not at all! Welcome!
"I have a GN once a month to motivate me to clean deeply at least
once"
I'm sorry, what is a GN? Even with years on the internet, I'm still learning
abbreviations.
"I also encourage friends to come over to keep a low level
matenence all the time"
I do this too. It is a good strategy. Now if I could just get the courage up
to encourage my friends to come over to do the low level maintenance... :-)
"And I instituted a nightly clean up of
trippup toys when my son was young to set the routine early"
This doesn't jive so much with me, because I work really hard not to
institute anything, but to problem solve together. And at the moment, I'm
the only one with the problem! So I think solutions will have to be about
how I need to change so that either I don't see it as a problem, or I just
take care of what bothers me (sweetly and lovingly...my mantra as I'm doing
it :) ). And I need to have a meeting with the voices in my head. I love
that line...it makes me laugh every time...it is sooo true.
This does bring up the question, why do you feel you need to "set routines"
early with your guy? There is such a strong pull to do that, but it also
sets a routine for making you the leader and him the follower. I think it
works better to be the example and let the child figure out what "routines"
work for them. You may be surprised by what happens! I have learned great
strategies from my children, different ways to do things that I had been
doing my whole life.
Since you are new, please understand that I am just responding to some of
your ideas, not you personally. I am on the new side on this list myself,
and was a little taken aback by having my ideas bantered about once they
were on the list. It's not personal. (See, I'm learning!)
The last comment I have is about flylady.net. I had never heard of it before
and so I visited it just now. All I can say is I hope I never end up like
the women portrayed there...frazzled to the core! I think the goal is to
keep perspective, keep loving, keep enjoying. A messy house is a sign of
activity, interest, productivity, fun, and more. Spending too much time on
keeping it clean will certainly take time away from the fun of messing it
up.
Thanks for all the feedback so far. It has been helpful!
Jacki
Robyn Coburn
<<<but I have a GN once a month to motivate me to clean deeply at least
Once>>>
What is GN?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
Once>>>
What is GN?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.752 / Virus Database: 503 - Release Date: 9/3/2004
Elizabeth Hill
**
This is also coming from a woman who used to
have to fantasize that the dirty dishes were alien ships and cleaning them
would kill their leaders. **
Way cool! Your idea is much better than the Mrs. Piggle Wiggle idea of pretending that one is a princess who has been forced to wash dishes by the evil queen. (Too pitiful for me.)
Betsy
This is also coming from a woman who used to
have to fantasize that the dirty dishes were alien ships and cleaning them
would kill their leaders. **
Way cool! Your idea is much better than the Mrs. Piggle Wiggle idea of pretending that one is a princess who has been forced to wash dishes by the evil queen. (Too pitiful for me.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 10:14:25 AM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< something I've found actually helped me on both sides of this
issue - both helping my kids (and husband) to see a reason for keeping
things relatively neat AND helping myself to lighten up my own requirements
was to get out and among other people and their homes more. It sounds
strange, but the more we see how other people actually live >>
Several places I've visited had cleaning ladies.
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. A mountain of valium went into helping keep 60's
housewives sane through their repeated attempts.
I have many other projects and dreams, and having my house look as though
someone (or a mom AND a maid or housekeeper) worked to keep it perfect all the
time isn't on my top 50. Bummer for some, bonus for others. <g> But at the
moment my laundry is ALL done and mostly put away, dishes are clean, dinner
stuff is thawing, I made pancakes and ham for breakfast, took Kirby to get his
REAL full-fledged driver's license, cleaned the fireplace for the coming
season, watered the whole yard . . . it partly makes up for me being gone five
days altogether. <g>
Sandra
<< something I've found actually helped me on both sides of this
issue - both helping my kids (and husband) to see a reason for keeping
things relatively neat AND helping myself to lighten up my own requirements
was to get out and among other people and their homes more. It sounds
strange, but the more we see how other people actually live >>
Several places I've visited had cleaning ladies.
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. A mountain of valium went into helping keep 60's
housewives sane through their repeated attempts.
I have many other projects and dreams, and having my house look as though
someone (or a mom AND a maid or housekeeper) worked to keep it perfect all the
time isn't on my top 50. Bummer for some, bonus for others. <g> But at the
moment my laundry is ALL done and mostly put away, dishes are clean, dinner
stuff is thawing, I made pancakes and ham for breakfast, took Kirby to get his
REAL full-fledged driver's license, cleaned the fireplace for the coming
season, watered the whole yard . . . it partly makes up for me being gone five
days altogether. <g>
Sandra
Sondra Carr
Absolutely!
It's also interesting to me - once I started researching how cleaning was
done historically to find how obsessive we are now in relation to just a few
generations ago The kind of cleaning we do now EVERY week was done only a
few times a year and often cleaning something like a kitchen involved
slopping all surfaces with water and letting it run down drains in floors.
Bathrooms, of course, were not an indoor affair for many families. With our
sensibilities (fed almost exclusively by people with something to sell us)
would have found our great-grandmothers to be positively slovenly!
I've always been an artist - and so have developed an approach to cleaning
that reflects the importance of this in my life. We have the "common" areas
- where guests are welcomed, which we try to keep up to a higher standard -
bathroom, kitchen, living room. Then we have our private areas - bedrooms,
personal baths, office, which we each get to choose how to keep. And finally
we have the "creative" areas - these we really let blossom. There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. This
approach seems to work for everyone in our household very well most of the
time and we all discussed it and came up with these solutions together.
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. A mountain of valium went into helping keep 60's
housewives sane through their repeated attempts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's also interesting to me - once I started researching how cleaning was
done historically to find how obsessive we are now in relation to just a few
generations ago The kind of cleaning we do now EVERY week was done only a
few times a year and often cleaning something like a kitchen involved
slopping all surfaces with water and letting it run down drains in floors.
Bathrooms, of course, were not an indoor affair for many families. With our
sensibilities (fed almost exclusively by people with something to sell us)
would have found our great-grandmothers to be positively slovenly!
I've always been an artist - and so have developed an approach to cleaning
that reflects the importance of this in my life. We have the "common" areas
- where guests are welcomed, which we try to keep up to a higher standard -
bathroom, kitchen, living room. Then we have our private areas - bedrooms,
personal baths, office, which we each get to choose how to keep. And finally
we have the "creative" areas - these we really let blossom. There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. This
approach seems to work for everyone in our household very well most of the
time and we all discussed it and came up with these solutions together.
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. A mountain of valium went into helping keep 60's
housewives sane through their repeated attempts.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 3:45:57 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. >>
You would get more mold if you left food in there!
(Oh, wait... maybe...)
We have three kinds of pumpkins growing like crazy in our back yard, crawling
over each other, grabbing our baby trees (and I grab the trees back), and as
gardening goes it's very erratic. It's also very beautiful, and they're
leaving us secret presents, down under the leaves, and we will have a lot of jack o
lanterns. It's not organized, or necessary, or efficient, or "right" in any
way except one of the kinds is just from last year's jack-o'lantern that
Holly threw out in the yard, and the other two were bought seed-packs. And it
makes the yard all green and flowery. And after the frost, there will be a
big pile of compost-fodder in all those vines and leaves.
We're enjoying the unexpected craziness of it all. I was wanting to limit
them, earlier in the summer, and just keep the intended ones, not the volunteers
in other places, but Marty and Keith said the flowers were pretty and to let
them go.
Sometimes things in the house are the same way. Someone starts a project and
it needs to sit, and someone adds to it. A little grocery-store
jungle-plant assortment is growing like CRAZY in Kirby's bathroom. It merited its own
hook and there's a bathmat to catch the drips. I don't know what his watering
plan is or anything, but the plants seem ecstatic.
There are housekeepers I know who would say NO to a crazy plant in a teenage
boy's bathroom, and NO to sacrificing a little rug to be a drip tray.
Luckily for them and me too, I just won't invite them over to admire Kirby's green
thumb. <bwg>
Next year we may have NO pumpkins. But what we will have then, as now, is a
happy willingness to be surprised.
Sandra
<< There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. >>
You would get more mold if you left food in there!
(Oh, wait... maybe...)
We have three kinds of pumpkins growing like crazy in our back yard, crawling
over each other, grabbing our baby trees (and I grab the trees back), and as
gardening goes it's very erratic. It's also very beautiful, and they're
leaving us secret presents, down under the leaves, and we will have a lot of jack o
lanterns. It's not organized, or necessary, or efficient, or "right" in any
way except one of the kinds is just from last year's jack-o'lantern that
Holly threw out in the yard, and the other two were bought seed-packs. And it
makes the yard all green and flowery. And after the frost, there will be a
big pile of compost-fodder in all those vines and leaves.
We're enjoying the unexpected craziness of it all. I was wanting to limit
them, earlier in the summer, and just keep the intended ones, not the volunteers
in other places, but Marty and Keith said the flowers were pretty and to let
them go.
Sometimes things in the house are the same way. Someone starts a project and
it needs to sit, and someone adds to it. A little grocery-store
jungle-plant assortment is growing like CRAZY in Kirby's bathroom. It merited its own
hook and there's a bathmat to catch the drips. I don't know what his watering
plan is or anything, but the plants seem ecstatic.
There are housekeepers I know who would say NO to a crazy plant in a teenage
boy's bathroom, and NO to sacrificing a little rug to be a drip tray.
Luckily for them and me too, I just won't invite them over to admire Kirby's green
thumb. <bwg>
Next year we may have NO pumpkins. But what we will have then, as now, is a
happy willingness to be surprised.
Sandra
Sondra Carr
Hahaha - well - you know, that kind of "mold" might actually make it to the
Tate, considering some of Damien Hirst's work with animals in formaldehyde.
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
*
In a message dated 9/16/04 3:45:57 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. >>
You would get more mold if you left food in there!
(Oh, wait... maybe...)
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tate, considering some of Damien Hirst's work with animals in formaldehyde.
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
*
In a message dated 9/16/04 3:45:57 PM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< There is no food
left there, but other than that - studios are made for breaking molds. >>
You would get more mold if you left food in there!
(Oh, wait... maybe...)
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perk Ster
OK,
First sorry a GN is a Games Night, we have some friends over to play
games, if you are in NC Charlotte area and interested email me off
list please for an address all are welcome, I typed my reply so fast I
didn't think much about it. (Next one is This saturday but it is an
unusual one we are doing a LAN party (Local Area Network, making the
computers talk and playing computer games instead of our usual board
or card games. More details avail if you need em)
Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night, so
yes some routines are neccessary. Others make life easier, I am open
to my families ideas, but I have to live here too, and I am the one up
for midnight bathroom breaks (ok my husband shares but he doesn't want
to trip either) I am also the one who cooks (ok DH shares somewhat) I
don't want to cook in a messy kitchen, so the routine of
table/floor/chair/handsface/kiss, keeps my kitchen from being to
terrible. after each meal. Now as I read this (a rare event to review
what I type I talk without thinking too) it looks really bitchy and I
do not mean to come off that way. but I don't know how to put it any
nicer. Please don't get the impression that my house is really neat
by any means, it just has a nightly tidy up, not REally company worthy
by any means.
Third, a garden is ment to be messy in my opinion, not that I can grow
a thing to save my life, but if I could I would prefer wandering
eclectic mixes and such, neat rows and perfect borders are a bit odd.
but hey whatever floats your boat. And I wish I could get anything to
live in my house! (plant wise, the kids seem fine)
Fourth , I am frequently frazzled for many reasons, clutter and mess
is only one of them. Nothing ever works right is another, and the
constant (need to fix) desire to prove that my way of life(SAHM Home
school, etc) is the RIGHT one for me. Why on earth I care so much
what others think is a mater for my nonexistant therapist. :)
Fifth, I wouldn't trade my modern vacum for a twice yearly rug beating! :)
First sorry a GN is a Games Night, we have some friends over to play
games, if you are in NC Charlotte area and interested email me off
list please for an address all are welcome, I typed my reply so fast I
didn't think much about it. (Next one is This saturday but it is an
unusual one we are doing a LAN party (Local Area Network, making the
computers talk and playing computer games instead of our usual board
or card games. More details avail if you need em)
Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night, so
yes some routines are neccessary. Others make life easier, I am open
to my families ideas, but I have to live here too, and I am the one up
for midnight bathroom breaks (ok my husband shares but he doesn't want
to trip either) I am also the one who cooks (ok DH shares somewhat) I
don't want to cook in a messy kitchen, so the routine of
table/floor/chair/handsface/kiss, keeps my kitchen from being to
terrible. after each meal. Now as I read this (a rare event to review
what I type I talk without thinking too) it looks really bitchy and I
do not mean to come off that way. but I don't know how to put it any
nicer. Please don't get the impression that my house is really neat
by any means, it just has a nightly tidy up, not REally company worthy
by any means.
Third, a garden is ment to be messy in my opinion, not that I can grow
a thing to save my life, but if I could I would prefer wandering
eclectic mixes and such, neat rows and perfect borders are a bit odd.
but hey whatever floats your boat. And I wish I could get anything to
live in my house! (plant wise, the kids seem fine)
Fourth , I am frequently frazzled for many reasons, clutter and mess
is only one of them. Nothing ever works right is another, and the
constant (need to fix) desire to prove that my way of life(SAHM Home
school, etc) is the RIGHT one for me. Why on earth I care so much
what others think is a mater for my nonexistant therapist. :)
Fifth, I wouldn't trade my modern vacum for a twice yearly rug beating! :)
eriksmama2001
We are in Charlotte NC too. There are a lot of unschoolers here. Do
you know of [email protected]?
Pat
--- In [email protected], Perk Ster
<perky.princess@g...> wrote:
you know of [email protected]?
Pat
--- In [email protected], Perk Ster
<perky.princess@g...> wrote:
> OK,fast I
>
> First sorry a GN is a Games Night, we have some friends over to play
> games, if you are in NC Charlotte area and interested email me off
> list please for an address all are welcome, I typed my reply so
> didn't think much about it. (Next one is This saturday but it is anso
> unusual one we are doing a LAN party (Local Area Network, making the
> computers talk and playing computer games instead of our usual board
> or card games. More details avail if you need em)
>
> Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night,
> yes some routines are neccessary. Others make life easier, I amopen
> to my families ideas, but I have to live here too, and I am the oneup
> for midnight bathroom breaks (ok my husband shares but he doesn'twant
> to trip either) I am also the one who cooks (ok DH sharessomewhat) I
> don't want to cook in a messy kitchen, so the routine ofreview
> table/floor/chair/handsface/kiss, keeps my kitchen from being to
> terrible. after each meal. Now as I read this (a rare event to
> what I type I talk without thinking too) it looks really bitchy andI
> do not mean to come off that way. but I don't know how to put itany
> nicer. Please don't get the impression that my house is really neatworthy
> by any means, it just has a nightly tidy up, not REally company
> by any means.grow
>
> Third, a garden is ment to be messy in my opinion, not that I can
> a thing to save my life, but if I could I would prefer wanderingodd.
> eclectic mixes and such, neat rows and perfect borders are a bit
> but hey whatever floats your boat. And I wish I could get anythingto
> live in my house! (plant wise, the kids seem fine)beating! :)
>
> Fourth , I am frequently frazzled for many reasons, clutter and mess
> is only one of them. Nothing ever works right is another, and the
> constant (need to fix) desire to prove that my way of life(SAHM Home
> school, etc) is the RIGHT one for me. Why on earth I care so much
> what others think is a mater for my nonexistant therapist. :)
>
> Fifth, I wouldn't trade my modern vacum for a twice yearly rug
Elizabeth Hill
**
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. **
Also, few people in the past had as many possessions as we do now. AND, having kids home during the day instead of in school for six hours tends to increase the amount of stuff on the floor.
I figure my son gets educational benefit out of playing with his elaborate toy set ups. Time spent putting it away and setting it back up again may be less valuable in building up brain cells. So my motto is let the toys lie longer and watch your feet carefully when walking through the living room.
Betsy
Much of the ideal American home involves keeping a home in the way they were
kept when people had maids, pre-Great-Depression days, and for single-family
suburbians to be prepared at any moment to serve tea, or have a photographer
in. It's not realistic. **
Also, few people in the past had as many possessions as we do now. AND, having kids home during the day instead of in school for six hours tends to increase the amount of stuff on the floor.
I figure my son gets educational benefit out of playing with his elaborate toy set ups. Time spent putting it away and setting it back up again may be less valuable in building up brain cells. So my motto is let the toys lie longer and watch your feet carefully when walking through the living room.
Betsy
Elizabeth Hill
**
Please don't get the impression that my house is really neat
by any means, it just has a nightly tidy up, not REally company worthy
by any means.**
This might sting, but I mean to shake you up a bit, not to stomp on you.
What about shifting thinking and getting the idea that maybe it is more important that your home be "kid friendly" and "kid worthy" than it be "company worthy"?
Why do we tend to esteem company more than kids?
Betsy
PS I personally don't like to turn the light on when I get up in the middle of the night, but it is one way to avoid tripping.
Please don't get the impression that my house is really neat
by any means, it just has a nightly tidy up, not REally company worthy
by any means.**
This might sting, but I mean to shake you up a bit, not to stomp on you.
What about shifting thinking and getting the idea that maybe it is more important that your home be "kid friendly" and "kid worthy" than it be "company worthy"?
Why do we tend to esteem company more than kids?
Betsy
PS I personally don't like to turn the light on when I get up in the middle of the night, but it is one way to avoid tripping.
Perk Ster
Just joined thanks, I am more looking into someday maybe finding the
courage to totaly unschool
courage to totaly unschool
Perk Ster
heh, like I said it isn't company worthy. but I do not trip as I
shuffle to the crib.
Maybe some elaborate toy set ups are worth keeping, or maybe some
major brain conections can be made in making new contraptions. Or
maybe an ingenious system of partial deconstruction for easy
rebuilding. or maybe an elaborate system for writing down the
particulars. or or or. or not. Personally I have often left a game set
up neatly for a week or two while finding spare time to play it. but
not on the floor and not in the way of cooking dinner.
shuffle to the crib.
Maybe some elaborate toy set ups are worth keeping, or maybe some
major brain conections can be made in making new contraptions. Or
maybe an ingenious system of partial deconstruction for easy
rebuilding. or maybe an elaborate system for writing down the
particulars. or or or. or not. Personally I have often left a game set
up neatly for a week or two while finding spare time to play it. but
not on the floor and not in the way of cooking dinner.
eriksmama2001
We totally unschool as do many of us locally. See Jan Fortune Wood's
web site about consensual living for inspiration.
Pat--- In [email protected], Perk Ster
<perky.princess@g...> wrote:
web site about consensual living for inspiration.
Pat--- In [email protected], Perk Ster
<perky.princess@g...> wrote:
> Just joined thanks, I am more looking into someday maybe finding the
> courage to totaly unschool
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/04 5:21:47 PM, perky.princess@... writes:
<< Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night, so
yes some routines are neccessary. >>
You won't if you make sure before you go to bed that your path is clear.
If the baby sleeps in your bed, you don't have to worry about walking there.
Just my own experience, you won't need so many cleaning routines if you don't
have a crib at some distance from where you already are.
-=- Now as I read this (a rare event to review
what I type I talk without thinking too) it looks really bitchy and I
do not mean to come off that way. but I don't know how to put it any
nicer. -=-
Please read (at least to read for the tone) some of what's here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Lots of people contributed.
And read the disclaimer about how it's not required nor really part of
unschooling, too! <g>
Sandra
<< Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night, so
yes some routines are neccessary. >>
You won't if you make sure before you go to bed that your path is clear.
If the baby sleeps in your bed, you don't have to worry about walking there.
Just my own experience, you won't need so many cleaning routines if you don't
have a crib at some distance from where you already are.
-=- Now as I read this (a rare event to review
what I type I talk without thinking too) it looks really bitchy and I
do not mean to come off that way. but I don't know how to put it any
nicer. -=-
Please read (at least to read for the tone) some of what's here:
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Lots of people contributed.
And read the disclaimer about how it's not required nor really part of
unschooling, too! <g>
Sandra
Eric Donato
Hey, I just read the page entitled True Tales, I loved it, funny funny
tone... I am sitting here alone with a Bit-o-honey, kids are asleep
earlier than usual, cracking up reading this-- it feels like a date or
a night out... thanks for putting the stories together, they are very
inspiring! this year I finally feel the way I expected to feel about
homeschooling/ unschooling right off the bat... it took a lot longer
than I thought but it's more satisfying because I needed to change in
many ways, we all did...
Jules.
tone... I am sitting here alone with a Bit-o-honey, kids are asleep
earlier than usual, cracking up reading this-- it feels like a date or
a night out... thanks for putting the stories together, they are very
inspiring! this year I finally feel the way I expected to feel about
homeschooling/ unschooling right off the bat... it took a lot longer
than I thought but it's more satisfying because I needed to change in
many ways, we all did...
Jules.
On Sep 16, 2004, at 8:02 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> http://sandradodd.com/chores
>
Fetteroll
on 9/16/04 6:57 PM, Perk Ster at perky.princess@... wrote:
others to make sure life runs the way you want it to.
And there can be anger and resentment when you trip over a toy in the night
because others aren't cooperating and it can feel like people don't care
about you and don't care about how they're making you suffer.
It's better to let all that go because it isn't true. (Unless you're
tromping on their feelings to make sure they go through the motions of
caring about your feelings. Then it can create a cycle of "You don't care
about me so I'm not going to care about you either.") Your feelings *are* a
choice.
The best gift we can give ourselves is to take care of our own needs. And
then when others take the time to do something thoughtful for us it's then a
welcome gift. :-)
here too," what would it sound like they were really saying?
Quite often it's a way of saying "You get to have your way when it isn't
inconvenient for me."
Different people have different priorities and we can't just assume that
because something is important to us that it is then someone else's top
priority.
If the kids wanted you to spend an hour every morning setting up an
elaborate lego model and they'd get angry and snappish if it wasn't done
when they needed it, at what point would you start feeling resentment?
But if they worked hard at the Lego setup each morning and sometimes asked
if you wouldn't mind holding a certain part so they could hook things
together, how would you feel?
Picking up toys seems like a easy task to you but from kids' points of view
it looks like a 1000 things and they don't know where to put them.
Requiring others to meet your needs is putting the responsibility onto
someone else. And then anger ensues when they don't meet that imposed
responsibility.
Make picking up your task because you're making the choice to make a clear
path for yourself (rather than choosing to step on toys). If you fully
accept that the task is yours and ask for help knowing that they may have
something of higher priority (even if it doesn't seem so to you) then their
reaction and attitude toward you will be different than if you approach them
with "This is *your* responsibilty and *you* aren't doing it," (as in the
Lego example above.)
Rethink how the toys are stored so that it's easy to pick. Rethink where
toys are kept so that toys that hurt when they're stepped on (like Legos!)
aren't played with on the path you take.
meet needs that you're not sure you should have.
It's a sad fact that it's much less work to *try* make others meet our needs
than to do the internal work of clearning out needs that don't make sense
and reorganizing our thoughts so we're thinking more clearly. It's easier to
get mad and resentful at someone because they didn't pick something up than
to rethink how things can be organized to cut down on some of the mess.
Most (decent) parents wouldn't say that the home comes before their kids but
if you've ever made them upset because of something around the house then at
those times it's more important that the thing be done than that the child
be happy. We tend to assume the "deposits" we've made in their happiness
account will cover the "withdrawals" we make when we deliberately upset to
get our needs met.
Our happiness shouldn't come at the expense of someone else's happiness. The
trick is to find ways that we can all be happy. Sometimes that means doing
some internal work to rethink the ways our thoughts are running so we can
*choose* happiness for ourselves.
Joyce
> Second I will NOT trip over toys on my way to a crib in the night, soWhen needs are phrased that way what follows is a necessity to control
> yes some routines are neccessary.
others to make sure life runs the way you want it to.
And there can be anger and resentment when you trip over a toy in the night
because others aren't cooperating and it can feel like people don't care
about you and don't care about how they're making you suffer.
It's better to let all that go because it isn't true. (Unless you're
tromping on their feelings to make sure they go through the motions of
caring about your feelings. Then it can create a cycle of "You don't care
about me so I'm not going to care about you either.") Your feelings *are* a
choice.
The best gift we can give ourselves is to take care of our own needs. And
then when others take the time to do something thoughtful for us it's then a
welcome gift. :-)
> I am open to my families ideas, but I have to live here tooAnd what if one of your kids said "I'm open to your ideas but I have to live
here too," what would it sound like they were really saying?
Quite often it's a way of saying "You get to have your way when it isn't
inconvenient for me."
Different people have different priorities and we can't just assume that
because something is important to us that it is then someone else's top
priority.
If the kids wanted you to spend an hour every morning setting up an
elaborate lego model and they'd get angry and snappish if it wasn't done
when they needed it, at what point would you start feeling resentment?
But if they worked hard at the Lego setup each morning and sometimes asked
if you wouldn't mind holding a certain part so they could hook things
together, how would you feel?
Picking up toys seems like a easy task to you but from kids' points of view
it looks like a 1000 things and they don't know where to put them.
Requiring others to meet your needs is putting the responsibility onto
someone else. And then anger ensues when they don't meet that imposed
responsibility.
Make picking up your task because you're making the choice to make a clear
path for yourself (rather than choosing to step on toys). If you fully
accept that the task is yours and ask for help knowing that they may have
something of higher priority (even if it doesn't seem so to you) then their
reaction and attitude toward you will be different than if you approach them
with "This is *your* responsibilty and *you* aren't doing it," (as in the
Lego example above.)
Rethink how the toys are stored so that it's easy to pick. Rethink where
toys are kept so that toys that hurt when they're stepped on (like Legos!)
aren't played with on the path you take.
> I am frequently frazzled for many reasons, clutter and messAnd some of that sounds like it's spilling out on the kids, wanting them to
> is only one of them. Nothing ever works right is another, and the
> constant (need to fix) desire to prove that my way of life(SAHM Home
> school, etc) is the RIGHT one for me.
meet needs that you're not sure you should have.
It's a sad fact that it's much less work to *try* make others meet our needs
than to do the internal work of clearning out needs that don't make sense
and reorganizing our thoughts so we're thinking more clearly. It's easier to
get mad and resentful at someone because they didn't pick something up than
to rethink how things can be organized to cut down on some of the mess.
Most (decent) parents wouldn't say that the home comes before their kids but
if you've ever made them upset because of something around the house then at
those times it's more important that the thing be done than that the child
be happy. We tend to assume the "deposits" we've made in their happiness
account will cover the "withdrawals" we make when we deliberately upset to
get our needs met.
Our happiness shouldn't come at the expense of someone else's happiness. The
trick is to find ways that we can all be happy. Sometimes that means doing
some internal work to rethink the ways our thoughts are running so we can
*choose* happiness for ourselves.
Joyce
Perk Ster
I wrote a quick angry reply but didn't have time to send, which is
good because while we ate I calmed down somewhat.
After breakfast while we all spent less then 5 minutes cleaning up I
realized part of my problem. It isn't just me up in the night. In
fact I am the only member of my family that would not get up if it
weren't for my nursing daughter (wich I don't mind) Everyone in my
family benifits. Mt husband gets up for work while it is dark, he
doesn't want to trip, my 2 year old gets up to use the bathroom many
nights, he doesnt want to trip. My 9 month old doesn't want mommy to
trip on the way to her. No one likes walking on toys in the middle of
the night. 10 minutes before bed and everyone benifits. And I
mentioned I started early with my son, my family doesn't like messy
floors any more than I do, it is ok when something is being played
with but themn it needs put away. Again 10 minutes at night everyone
benifits.
Keeping kids in bed with you is fine for as long as it is enjoyed by
both, after all I wouldn't sleep with my husband if I didn't like it,
my daugter now squirms to much for me, plus I would like to enjoy my
husband a bit more. So out she went, it didn't bother her much, and
she now sleeps thru the night, no crying it out or any other method
neccessary, just feed her put her in her bed. If I could just get
her to nap consistantly All would be good.
If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kids
who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me.
If it means I have to waste money on paint and playdough that don't
get put away (and therefore no one can play with it) it isn't for me.
If it means I have to let my kids leave the kitchen a mess after every
meal, either for me to clean or bugs to clean it isn't for me. If it
means I have to wait until my son learns that yes he really does have
to brush his teeth to prevent cavities or worse, while paying dental
bills, it isn't for me. If it means waiting for the head cracked open
before insisting on a bike helmet, it isn't for me.
If it means I have to wait for my son to learn all those things I
have been patiently and easily reminding him about all on his own I :
A. don't have the money and
B. don't wanna. Life is easier without the DR visits.
If on the other hand it is more about gently encouraging your kids to
grow without set lessons or set shcedules (ok time for science class
put down that bug and listen) than that I think would be nice, scary
but nice.
I will be keeping my mealtime and bedtime routiines, if at some point
I find one for successfully and easily getting the laundry put away or
my desk clean I will keep it to myself.
good because while we ate I calmed down somewhat.
After breakfast while we all spent less then 5 minutes cleaning up I
realized part of my problem. It isn't just me up in the night. In
fact I am the only member of my family that would not get up if it
weren't for my nursing daughter (wich I don't mind) Everyone in my
family benifits. Mt husband gets up for work while it is dark, he
doesn't want to trip, my 2 year old gets up to use the bathroom many
nights, he doesnt want to trip. My 9 month old doesn't want mommy to
trip on the way to her. No one likes walking on toys in the middle of
the night. 10 minutes before bed and everyone benifits. And I
mentioned I started early with my son, my family doesn't like messy
floors any more than I do, it is ok when something is being played
with but themn it needs put away. Again 10 minutes at night everyone
benifits.
Keeping kids in bed with you is fine for as long as it is enjoyed by
both, after all I wouldn't sleep with my husband if I didn't like it,
my daugter now squirms to much for me, plus I would like to enjoy my
husband a bit more. So out she went, it didn't bother her much, and
she now sleeps thru the night, no crying it out or any other method
neccessary, just feed her put her in her bed. If I could just get
her to nap consistantly All would be good.
If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kids
who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me.
If it means I have to waste money on paint and playdough that don't
get put away (and therefore no one can play with it) it isn't for me.
If it means I have to let my kids leave the kitchen a mess after every
meal, either for me to clean or bugs to clean it isn't for me. If it
means I have to wait until my son learns that yes he really does have
to brush his teeth to prevent cavities or worse, while paying dental
bills, it isn't for me. If it means waiting for the head cracked open
before insisting on a bike helmet, it isn't for me.
If it means I have to wait for my son to learn all those things I
have been patiently and easily reminding him about all on his own I :
A. don't have the money and
B. don't wanna. Life is easier without the DR visits.
If on the other hand it is more about gently encouraging your kids to
grow without set lessons or set shcedules (ok time for science class
put down that bug and listen) than that I think would be nice, scary
but nice.
I will be keeping my mealtime and bedtime routiines, if at some point
I find one for successfully and easily getting the laundry put away or
my desk clean I will keep it to myself.
Pam Hartley
> If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kidsWhat unschooling often means, at least as far as mindset, is being able to
> who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me.
> If it means I have to waste money on paint and playdough that don't
> get put away (and therefore no one can play with it) it isn't for me.
> If it means I have to let my kids leave the kitchen a mess after every
> meal, either for me to clean or bugs to clean it isn't for me. If it
> means I have to wait until my son learns that yes he really does have
> to brush his teeth to prevent cavities or worse, while paying dental
> bills, it isn't for me. If it means waiting for the head cracked open
> before insisting on a bike helmet, it isn't for me.
think of creative solutions and ideas instead of being immediately reactive
and thrusting away new ideas automatically as "not for me".
No one here can make you leave toys all over the floor. There is no harm in
reading the suggestions and ideas posted and thinking them over for a few
days or a few weeks to see if any part of them have any merit in your life.
There is no need to post to every idea about how wasteful and wrong and
dangerous it is.
Almost all of us grew up with coercion in the form of housekeeping, in one
form or another. We know what that's like. What folks have been trying to
give you, at no charge and at an expense of their own time and effort, is
alternatives. You don't have to take the gift, you don't have to like the
gift, but it would be more polite not to go on auto-argue. Giving myself
time to think over and percolate new concepts has in my life generally been
a good idea.
There are more alternatives than "trip over toys, waste money, leave the
kitchen a mess, get cavities, have cracked heads". There are exciting and
joyful ways to live peacefully and respectfully with children instead of
living in fear of worst-case scenarios.
No forced chores are not, as Sandra pointed out already (maybe you missed
that part?) a "requirement" for unschooling. Having the ability and
willingness to seek the most kind and helpful ways to deal with each other
as a family are, in my opinion, mandatory. Thrusting away new ideas without
examining them for awhile and seeing if there's anything about them, or if
they stir anything interesting inside you, is probably a bad sign for when
you hit the actual unschooling stumbling block. A shift in willing interest
in learning on your part is a good unschooling move.
Reading through the archives of this list can be helpful. There are other
lists that are helpful, too. Sandra has already posted a link that I hope
you'll read re: chores, and on that same site is a treasure trove of
unschooling advice.
No harm is done by a new unschooler posting questions. No benefit is gained
by a new unschooler spending her energy publicly rejecting all suggestions
when she could be thinking things over or reading other unschooling
material.
Pause and think. Breathe. Sleep and think some more. Read a lot. If we're
full of crap, at least you will have reached that opinion with honest and
reasoning consideration.
Pam
Sondra Carr
You know - this is something I've struggled with - got through the point
being discussed here - realized that if I wanted it done, it's my
responsibility and that my kids could have their own idea of what's
acceptable and what's not. Now I'm at a point where I think about how they
will develop an understanding of how to react with the rest of the world in
an interdependent way without coercion. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm
dedicated to making it work - but I'm a creative thinker and think a lot
about how things happen and don't happen. I don't have aspirations for my
children to be perfect or to fit perfectly into a society that I don't
particularly think has it all right, but I do want them to possess skills
that allow them to function in most social situations. I've compromised my
ideals on this front (of complete non-coercion) by talking with them about
common space vs. personal space. Yes - I've probably been somewhat coercive
although I try not to be - by the very nature of having a mature and well
developed voice, there is some implicit coercion. Does anyone here have
experience truly not coercing children in any way as to the parents' view of
etiquette, the world around them, their place in a communal living
situation, etc? And what were some of the trials, how were they approached
without coercion, and what was the eventual outcome?
My compromise at present is to tell my kids what I believe the world around
them is like and what I see as the true consequences of this or that action
in the real world. I also make my case in family meetings for instance - for
a cleaner common area so we don't have to rush around to clean when we have
company. And I do occasionally ask for help. They always just jump in when I
ask and I don't make them feel bad about it getting dirty to begin with
except those times when I say "man, we are letting this place slip - maybe
we should try this or that." I try to make it about us instead of about
them. This actually seems to be working pretty well - I take them to a lot
of other people's houses and invite a good number of people here. But I do
worry that I'm still being coercive. Although I'm resigned to the fact that
I can't be perfect, I'm always open to other ways people exist.
being discussed here - realized that if I wanted it done, it's my
responsibility and that my kids could have their own idea of what's
acceptable and what's not. Now I'm at a point where I think about how they
will develop an understanding of how to react with the rest of the world in
an interdependent way without coercion. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm
dedicated to making it work - but I'm a creative thinker and think a lot
about how things happen and don't happen. I don't have aspirations for my
children to be perfect or to fit perfectly into a society that I don't
particularly think has it all right, but I do want them to possess skills
that allow them to function in most social situations. I've compromised my
ideals on this front (of complete non-coercion) by talking with them about
common space vs. personal space. Yes - I've probably been somewhat coercive
although I try not to be - by the very nature of having a mature and well
developed voice, there is some implicit coercion. Does anyone here have
experience truly not coercing children in any way as to the parents' view of
etiquette, the world around them, their place in a communal living
situation, etc? And what were some of the trials, how were they approached
without coercion, and what was the eventual outcome?
My compromise at present is to tell my kids what I believe the world around
them is like and what I see as the true consequences of this or that action
in the real world. I also make my case in family meetings for instance - for
a cleaner common area so we don't have to rush around to clean when we have
company. And I do occasionally ask for help. They always just jump in when I
ask and I don't make them feel bad about it getting dirty to begin with
except those times when I say "man, we are letting this place slip - maybe
we should try this or that." I try to make it about us instead of about
them. This actually seems to be working pretty well - I take them to a lot
of other people's houses and invite a good number of people here. But I do
worry that I'm still being coercive. Although I'm resigned to the fact that
I can't be perfect, I'm always open to other ways people exist.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/04 8:12:40 AM, perky.princess@... writes:
<< So out she went, it didn't bother her much, >>
At the calculated risk of making you angry,
you came and posted traditional kinds of advice without reading the list long
enough to understand that we all know the traditional ways, we're looking at
*different* ways, for real and valid reasons.
"Out she went" would sound harsh if your husband said it of you, or your
children said it of you. Even if you didn't say it that way to your daughter
("out you go"), you thought it, and wrote it, and posted it to 500 people. That
DOES indicate something of your attitude.
It didn't bother her much, you say, and that could be true. But you did put
your own comfort above hers. I understand it to some extent, and most people
in the country understand it COMPLETELY and would support you entirely.
Here, on this list, an attachment parenting and unschooling list, we would be
remiss if we didn't suggest that putting your children's needs first will help
with your own needs ultimately. And considering your child's needs as separate
from your own isn't the way to a closer family relationship.
-=-and
she now sleeps thru the night, no crying it out or any other method
neccessary, just feed her put her in her bed. -=-
You got her to sleep.
-=-If I could just get
her to nap consistantly All would be good.-=-
You want to get her to sleep some more.
-=-If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kids
who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me. -=-
People recommended ways for you to NOT trip over toys and for kids to clean
because they want to, but you seem unprepared to understand the advice you're
being freely offered by people who ARE happier than you are, who are NOT
tripping over toys, and whose children bloody well feel like helping them.
If a person has no choice, she can't possibly begin to make a good choice.
-=-If it means I have to waste. . .
If it means I have to let. . .
If it means I have to wait. . .
If it means waiting . . .
If it means I have to wait . . .-=-
You don't have to waste or let or wait. Keep doing what you're doing.
Nobody will come to your house to check.
Nobody made you post, nobody made you read the responses.
Nobody made me create this list.
Nobody made anyone read or respond to your posts.
People do things they CHOOSE to do, and they do them happily when it's their
choice.
What people are MADE to do, they learn to avoid.
There is unschooling without attachment parenting or mindfulness.
Do what you want to do, but the more you know, the more choice you have, and
the wiser choices you can make.
If your choices end up creating bad feelings in your family, now you know you
had an option.
Sandra
<< So out she went, it didn't bother her much, >>
At the calculated risk of making you angry,
you came and posted traditional kinds of advice without reading the list long
enough to understand that we all know the traditional ways, we're looking at
*different* ways, for real and valid reasons.
"Out she went" would sound harsh if your husband said it of you, or your
children said it of you. Even if you didn't say it that way to your daughter
("out you go"), you thought it, and wrote it, and posted it to 500 people. That
DOES indicate something of your attitude.
It didn't bother her much, you say, and that could be true. But you did put
your own comfort above hers. I understand it to some extent, and most people
in the country understand it COMPLETELY and would support you entirely.
Here, on this list, an attachment parenting and unschooling list, we would be
remiss if we didn't suggest that putting your children's needs first will help
with your own needs ultimately. And considering your child's needs as separate
from your own isn't the way to a closer family relationship.
-=-and
she now sleeps thru the night, no crying it out or any other method
neccessary, just feed her put her in her bed. -=-
You got her to sleep.
-=-If I could just get
her to nap consistantly All would be good.-=-
You want to get her to sleep some more.
-=-If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kids
who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me. -=-
People recommended ways for you to NOT trip over toys and for kids to clean
because they want to, but you seem unprepared to understand the advice you're
being freely offered by people who ARE happier than you are, who are NOT
tripping over toys, and whose children bloody well feel like helping them.
If a person has no choice, she can't possibly begin to make a good choice.
-=-If it means I have to waste. . .
If it means I have to let. . .
If it means I have to wait. . .
If it means waiting . . .
If it means I have to wait . . .-=-
You don't have to waste or let or wait. Keep doing what you're doing.
Nobody will come to your house to check.
Nobody made you post, nobody made you read the responses.
Nobody made me create this list.
Nobody made anyone read or respond to your posts.
People do things they CHOOSE to do, and they do them happily when it's their
choice.
What people are MADE to do, they learn to avoid.
There is unschooling without attachment parenting or mindfulness.
Do what you want to do, but the more you know, the more choice you have, and
the wiser choices you can make.
If your choices end up creating bad feelings in your family, now you know you
had an option.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/04 9:12:07 AM, sondracarr@... writes:
<< Does anyone here have
experience truly not coercing children in any way as to the parents' view of
etiquette, the world around them, their place in a communal living
situation, etc? >>
This isn't really a non-coercive parenting list. Unschooling can look like
it, but it's not exactly the same entry-point to the relationship. I would
like to say if you really want stories of non-coercion, to ask at the TCS site,
but they don't like to tell real stories of their actual children.
While I don't force my kids to be polite, they have known since they were
tiny the advantages of courtesy, because they've seen it in others. When they've
complained about the discourtesy of other kids, I've discussed that in ways
that helped them see what they didn't like, what could have been different,
that people are just very different in their awarenesses and talents, and that
some people will always be more polite than others. Then within that framework,
they've made their own choices about how to be with others. Why would they
choose to be a way they didn't like (as they are aware enough and analytical
enough to SEE the choices and the differences)?
On the other hand, Holly gave Kirby a phone message the other day and he
didn't return the call. I found the written message and asked him, and he said
Wednesday wasn't a good day for it. Yesterday we BOTH reminded him to call. <g>
I don't think it was coercion, but Kirby might have felt coerced. Had we
NOT reminded him to call, he and the girl both might have been sorry, as we
knew Kirby was about to leave for over three days to Denver, but she didn't know
that. We were helping him maintain his social life in the manner to which he
has become accustomed.
-=-by the very nature of having a mature and well
developed voice, there is some implicit coercion-=-
I agree.
Some people believe that each human comes out having the right to freedom of
self-determination. I think that's totally a political/philosophical construct
and there's no "natural" state except the primate state, in which there ARE
leadership roles and familial realities. If a parent chooses to give a child
freedoms, it's because the parent had freedoms for whatever combination of
reasons, and had enough to spare.
Sandra
<< Does anyone here have
experience truly not coercing children in any way as to the parents' view of
etiquette, the world around them, their place in a communal living
situation, etc? >>
This isn't really a non-coercive parenting list. Unschooling can look like
it, but it's not exactly the same entry-point to the relationship. I would
like to say if you really want stories of non-coercion, to ask at the TCS site,
but they don't like to tell real stories of their actual children.
While I don't force my kids to be polite, they have known since they were
tiny the advantages of courtesy, because they've seen it in others. When they've
complained about the discourtesy of other kids, I've discussed that in ways
that helped them see what they didn't like, what could have been different,
that people are just very different in their awarenesses and talents, and that
some people will always be more polite than others. Then within that framework,
they've made their own choices about how to be with others. Why would they
choose to be a way they didn't like (as they are aware enough and analytical
enough to SEE the choices and the differences)?
On the other hand, Holly gave Kirby a phone message the other day and he
didn't return the call. I found the written message and asked him, and he said
Wednesday wasn't a good day for it. Yesterday we BOTH reminded him to call. <g>
I don't think it was coercion, but Kirby might have felt coerced. Had we
NOT reminded him to call, he and the girl both might have been sorry, as we
knew Kirby was about to leave for over three days to Denver, but she didn't know
that. We were helping him maintain his social life in the manner to which he
has become accustomed.
-=-by the very nature of having a mature and well
developed voice, there is some implicit coercion-=-
I agree.
Some people believe that each human comes out having the right to freedom of
self-determination. I think that's totally a political/philosophical construct
and there's no "natural" state except the primate state, in which there ARE
leadership roles and familial realities. If a parent chooses to give a child
freedoms, it's because the parent had freedoms for whatever combination of
reasons, and had enough to spare.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/04 8:22:43 AM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< There is no need to post to every idea about how wasteful and wrong and
dangerous it is. >>
And there is damage to this list (and the writer's soul and integrity) in
posting about ideas that weren't even part of the discussion.
After I went away to make lunch for an outing, I realized I was REALLY angry
at the poster for a wildly reactive description of unschooling, and an
extremely irritating portrait of herself as too wise and right to consider the
stupidities of this [fictional] "unschooling."
That does this list NO good, except in people remembering that there really
are parents who don't intend to really examine their own actions.
Yeah, I'm cranky.
-=-Thrusting away new ideas without
examining them for awhile and seeing if there's anything about them, or if
they stir anything interesting inside you, is probably a bad sign for when
you hit the actual unschooling stumbling block. A shift in willing interest
in learning on your part is a good unschooling move.-=-
Yes.
And one reality of participation on this list is that
*GLORIOUSLY*
*FOR WHICH YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL*
people will suggest alternatives.
And you know what?
The alternatives are not suggested to make the mom's life more cushy.
They are suggested to make the children's unschooling lives as rich as they
can possibly be.
And those who have striven for that goal find that after a while their own
lives are more cushy.
Anyone who doubts that is invited to read here:
http://sandradodd.com/list
It's a collection of mushy feedback about other sources than this list.
And this list was designed to be a better source than those other two, and
has sometimes succeeded.
That trouncing of the straw man that what's-her-princess subjected us to was
an embarrassment. I'm not sorry about posting while I'm angry. I have to
leave for a few hours now, to go to a museum and park with another unschooling
family. Again, I'm off giving someone else an opportunity to be around lon
g-unschooled kids. And I didn't want someone who doesn't understand unschooling
yet (but it's not too late to try) to think she had REALLY told this list
something profound.
Sandra
<< There is no need to post to every idea about how wasteful and wrong and
dangerous it is. >>
And there is damage to this list (and the writer's soul and integrity) in
posting about ideas that weren't even part of the discussion.
After I went away to make lunch for an outing, I realized I was REALLY angry
at the poster for a wildly reactive description of unschooling, and an
extremely irritating portrait of herself as too wise and right to consider the
stupidities of this [fictional] "unschooling."
That does this list NO good, except in people remembering that there really
are parents who don't intend to really examine their own actions.
Yeah, I'm cranky.
-=-Thrusting away new ideas without
examining them for awhile and seeing if there's anything about them, or if
they stir anything interesting inside you, is probably a bad sign for when
you hit the actual unschooling stumbling block. A shift in willing interest
in learning on your part is a good unschooling move.-=-
Yes.
And one reality of participation on this list is that
*GLORIOUSLY*
*FOR WHICH YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL*
people will suggest alternatives.
And you know what?
The alternatives are not suggested to make the mom's life more cushy.
They are suggested to make the children's unschooling lives as rich as they
can possibly be.
And those who have striven for that goal find that after a while their own
lives are more cushy.
Anyone who doubts that is invited to read here:
http://sandradodd.com/list
It's a collection of mushy feedback about other sources than this list.
And this list was designed to be a better source than those other two, and
has sometimes succeeded.
That trouncing of the straw man that what's-her-princess subjected us to was
an embarrassment. I'm not sorry about posting while I'm angry. I have to
leave for a few hours now, to go to a museum and park with another unschooling
family. Again, I'm off giving someone else an opportunity to be around lon
g-unschooled kids. And I didn't want someone who doesn't understand unschooling
yet (but it's not too late to try) to think she had REALLY told this list
something profound.
Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<<<There is no harm in
I agree with Pam. Everyone's family, temperament, likes and dislikes,
personal history, etc. are very different. What is going to work wonders
and be a happy, inventive solution in one household is going to be torture
in another.
I think often times, people come to this list wanting to know what
unschooling "looks like" and the problem is that you can't hardly tell by
looking. It is different in every family.
But how you tell an unschooler is by what is underneath, was there
consensus? Was there respect for all parties involved? Was everyone truly
listened to? Was everyone truly encouraged to follow their dreams?
Not just the parents but the kids. Are their feelings and desires valued
just as much as the parents?
It doesn't mean that kids just do what they "bloody well feel like" at the
expense of others and it doesn't mean that parents lay down mandates of how
things are going to be.
There is no magic recipe. It is constantly looking at what you are doing,
what is going on, checking to see if when you say "no" or "please do this"
it is not some type of manipulation or false reasoning....at least in the
beginning.
Julie S.
> reading the suggestions and ideas posted and thinking them over for a fewlife.>>>>
> days or a few weeks to see if any part of them have any merit in your
I agree with Pam. Everyone's family, temperament, likes and dislikes,
personal history, etc. are very different. What is going to work wonders
and be a happy, inventive solution in one household is going to be torture
in another.
I think often times, people come to this list wanting to know what
unschooling "looks like" and the problem is that you can't hardly tell by
looking. It is different in every family.
But how you tell an unschooler is by what is underneath, was there
consensus? Was there respect for all parties involved? Was everyone truly
listened to? Was everyone truly encouraged to follow their dreams?
Not just the parents but the kids. Are their feelings and desires valued
just as much as the parents?
It doesn't mean that kids just do what they "bloody well feel like" at the
expense of others and it doesn't mean that parents lay down mandates of how
things are going to be.
There is no magic recipe. It is constantly looking at what you are doing,
what is going on, checking to see if when you say "no" or "please do this"
it is not some type of manipulation or false reasoning....at least in the
beginning.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
> > If unschooling means I have to deal with toys to trip over and kids
> > who only clean when they bloody well feel like it it is not for me.
> > If it means I have to waste money on paint and playdough that don't
> > get put away (and therefore no one can play with it) it isn't for me.
> > If it means I have to let my kids leave the kitchen a mess after every
> > meal, either for me to clean or bugs to clean it isn't for me. If it
> > means I have to wait until my son learns that yes he really does have
> > to brush his teeth to prevent cavities or worse, while paying dental
> > bills, it isn't for me. If it means waiting for the head cracked open
> > before insisting on a bike helmet, it isn't for me.
>
>
> What unschooling often means, at least as far as mindset, is being able to
> think of creative solutions and ideas instead of being immediately
reactive
> and thrusting away new ideas automatically as "not for me".
>
> No one here can make you leave toys all over the floor. There is no harm
in
> reading the suggestions and ideas posted and thinking them over for a few
> days or a few weeks to see if any part of them have any merit in your
life.
> There is no need to post to every idea about how wasteful and wrong and
> dangerous it is.
>
> Almost all of us grew up with coercion in the form of housekeeping, in one
> form or another. We know what that's like. What folks have been trying to
> give you, at no charge and at an expense of their own time and effort, is
> alternatives. You don't have to take the gift, you don't have to like the
> gift, but it would be more polite not to go on auto-argue. Giving myself
> time to think over and percolate new concepts has in my life generally
been
> a good idea.
>
> There are more alternatives than "trip over toys, waste money, leave the
> kitchen a mess, get cavities, have cracked heads". There are exciting and
> joyful ways to live peacefully and respectfully with children instead of
> living in fear of worst-case scenarios.
>
> No forced chores are not, as Sandra pointed out already (maybe you missed
> that part?) a "requirement" for unschooling. Having the ability and
> willingness to seek the most kind and helpful ways to deal with each other
> as a family are, in my opinion, mandatory. Thrusting away new ideas
without
> examining them for awhile and seeing if there's anything about them, or if
> they stir anything interesting inside you, is probably a bad sign for when
> you hit the actual unschooling stumbling block. A shift in willing
interest
> in learning on your part is a good unschooling move.
>
> Reading through the archives of this list can be helpful. There are other
> lists that are helpful, too. Sandra has already posted a link that I hope
> you'll read re: chores, and on that same site is a treasure trove of
> unschooling advice.
>
> No harm is done by a new unschooler posting questions. No benefit is
gained
> by a new unschooler spending her energy publicly rejecting all suggestions
> when she could be thinking things over or reading other unschooling
> material.
>
> Pause and think. Breathe. Sleep and think some more. Read a lot. If we're
> full of crap, at least you will have reached that opinion with honest and
> reasoning consideration.
>
> Pam
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<< My compromise at present is to tell my kids what I believe the world
around
If I am telling my young son that it hurts the butterfly to pull its wings
off. I am not forcing him...I am providing information.
If I tell my son that in most families, he would get spanked for pulling the
wings off. That is something else.
Julie S.
around
> them is like and what I see as the true consequences of this or thataction
> in the real world.>>>>>Depends on how you do this as to whether or not I even see it as coersive.
If I am telling my young son that it hurts the butterfly to pull its wings
off. I am not forcing him...I am providing information.
If I tell my son that in most families, he would get spanked for pulling the
wings off. That is something else.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sondra Carr" <sondracarr@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] house cleaning
>
> You know - this is something I've struggled with - got through the point
> being discussed here - realized that if I wanted it done, it's my
> responsibility and that my kids could have their own idea of what's
> acceptable and what's not. Now I'm at a point where I think about how they
> will develop an understanding of how to react with the rest of the world
in
> an interdependent way without coercion. Now, don't get me wrong - I'm
> dedicated to making it work - but I'm a creative thinker and think a lot
> about how things happen and don't happen. I don't have aspirations for my
> children to be perfect or to fit perfectly into a society that I don't
> particularly think has it all right, but I do want them to possess skills
> that allow them to function in most social situations. I've compromised my
> ideals on this front (of complete non-coercion) by talking with them about
> common space vs. personal space. Yes - I've probably been somewhat
coercive
> although I try not to be - by the very nature of having a mature and well
> developed voice, there is some implicit coercion. Does anyone here have
> experience truly not coercing children in any way as to the parents' view
of
> etiquette, the world around them, their place in a communal living
> situation, etc? And what were some of the trials, how were they approached
> without coercion, and what was the eventual outcome?
>
>
>
> My compromise at present is to tell my kids what I believe the world
around
> them is like and what I see as the true consequences of this or that
action
> in the real world. I also make my case in family meetings for instance -
for
> a cleaner common area so we don't have to rush around to clean when we
have
> company. And I do occasionally ask for help. They always just jump in when
I
> ask and I don't make them feel bad about it getting dirty to begin with
> except those times when I say "man, we are letting this place slip - maybe
> we should try this or that." I try to make it about us instead of about
> them. This actually seems to be working pretty well - I take them to a lot
> of other people's houses and invite a good number of people here. But I do
> worry that I'm still being coercive. Although I'm resigned to the fact
that
> I can't be perfect, I'm always open to other ways people exist.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>