Usually I've been using quotes on my site which come from exchanges on mailing lists, or at unschooling.com, but this exchange was so powerful whole that other than editing out some peripheral chit-chat, I've left it whole and in the order it unfolded. I know at least one of the authors changed her mind and practices later, and that one's noted. Others might have as well. I hope you enjoy it! —Sandra Dodd, 4/04
Unschooling.com's Message Boards: Come Sit a Spell and Introduce Yourself: Unschooling with the TV in the house
By Sue Murphy on Saturday, August 4, 2001 - 04:48 pm:Hi, I'm Sue from NC. I have 6 kids ages 3,6,9,12,15,18. This will be our 5th year homeschooling. We have done everything from unit studies, lots of structure (the kind that makes mom feel like we are in control and getting "it" all accomplished!) boxed curriculum etc. Last year we were all a little frustrated and everyone wanted to just finish so they could go out and play (learn). I want to just trust my heart and let them all lead their own interest-lead learning. My 18 year old graduated from our homeschool last year and homeschooling was so great for him. Because he was a more hands-on learner I let him spend lots of time pondering, puttering and tinkering in the garage. He learned all the things he needed and wanted to know. He is happily working full time now in his area of interest. I want to put all the workbooks away unless they want to use them and trust the kids and myself. It is just hard to get that are they learning all the necessary 'stuff' mentality out of my head. Back to the TV problem- they do seem to gravitate to it when they get bored. Some days I would love to unplug it because they move onto better things without it. Any thoughts?
Sue
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Saturday, August 4, 2001 - 06:34 pm:Well, since you asked...
You've defined it as a problem, and you've stated that other things are better.
There's a lot to be learned on TV and from watching TV. If your trust stops short of the TV, it's not much trust yet.
Trusting your heart and trusting your kids and trusting how learning works will all enlarge the range of things you see as learning situations, until the time when you don't see things except in terms of what can be learned.
Then TV won't be a problem.
Those are my thoughts.
Sandra
By Angela Nordstrom (Noschoolathome) on Saturday, August 4, 2001 - 10:11 pm:So, Sandra, are you saying it's OK for them to watch a lot of TV?
My Mitchell (5) would watch it all day if I didn't say that's enough...get outside and play, now.
He says just about every show is his favorite show.
He watches about 3-4 hours a day right now (mostly because we live in Florida and it's just so hot out in the summer that I'd rather have them in).
Should I not worry about it so much?
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Saturday, August 4, 2001 - 11:56 pm:It is my long considered opinion, my eventual conviction, that trying to control TV based on the mother's judgment of what the child seems to be learning is
1) saying more about the mom than the TV or the childI have watched Ninja Turtles cartoons, and movies. I have watched Power Rangers, and analyzed plots and characters with kids.2) putting a value on TV that treating it like any other book or toy or piece of furniture can never create
3) betraying the claim to believe learning is everywhere
4) usually indicative of the parent's NOT watching TV with the child.
Power Rangers would not have been my first choice.
Being with my kids and seeing the world from their viewpoint and trying to help them figure it out was my first choice.
Had I said "Power Rangers is stupid; turn it off" I would have harmed the relationship between us. By being WITH them, I strengthened it.
You say Mitchell would watch it all day if you didn't say "enough." If you've always said "enough," you don't know what you're talking about. You're making an assumption based on... what? Lack of faith in him? Acknoweldgement that he's getting something out of TV but you don't know what it is and so you're jealously separating them?
"My favorite show" means he sees value in that show, he doesn't think you should turn it off, it's fascinating him. If you don't know WHY he likes that show, and what he's thinking while he's watching it and later, you're missing a huge opportunity for learning and interaction.
For a while we watched Blossom, and discussed the situations. It has been in different seasons The Simpsons, Animaniacs, Friends. The Karate Kid movies. Spartacus. Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Romeo and Juliet.
If you and your children trust one another to openly consider what the other is intrigued by, you can go easily from Arthur to Pirates of Penzance.
If you say "Your show is dumb," you give them the modelled permission to think YOUR show is dumb in a month or a year. If you say "If you think it's interesting, it must be!" they will trust you when you say, "You want to watch Ben Hur? It's cool!"
No child will watch TV all day unless the rest of his life is stressful or frightening or otherwise something he needs to escape from, or if TV has been made valuable by being limited and the limits have just been removed. When other interesting things are available, lots of shows will be less interesting. But there is a lot to be learned on TV, or from kids' videos.
There are other threads about this elsewhere, too.
Sandra
By Jfetteroll (Jfetteroll) on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 07:36 am:No child will watch TV all day unless the rest of his life is stressful or frightening or otherwise something he needs to escape from
To expand on that a bit, if his choices are finding something other than TV to do, doing something you feel is worth his time or watching TV, then perhaps TV is his best option.
Kids are pretty good at following their own interests. But our part is to make sure they have access to new interests and connections to the greater world — that appeal to *them.* If I leave out a "good" science book that doesn't grab my daughter's attention, it doesn't then become her duty to pick it up just because I supposedly did my part. My part is to make sure she has things that will engage her, not just access to things I think are worthwhile. And sometimes the things that engage her happen to be TV.
Saying that every show is his favorite show could mean that he's learned that unless he says that you'll turn it off. It could also mean that, even if it isn't his favorite as an adult would use that word, it might mean "I'm really engaged in this show and I want to see what's going to happen next."
Joyce
By doto on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 08:35 am:Sometimes you have to consider the parent's routine too. Does mom or dad sit and watch TV. Often? Even if the kids are in bed? Not that it is wrong, but what kind of message are they trying to give their kids? that it is not okay for you to watch TV. but mom and dad can? [with the secret hopes that they will grow up differently than mom and dad and find more interesting things to do]
I really believe example is better than "just do it because I am your parent" and giving them any ideas that television should be banned will only spark their curiosity even more. So sit with them while they watch television or do something else with them—either way you can't fail, by being with them.:)
By Nerida Nada (Nerinada) on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 09:45 am:We lived for many years without TV, basically because I grew up with a lot of anti-TV judgment.
Now we have one and it's great!
I see it as a window to the world, a fun, informative, learning tool.
Humanity is enjoying a learning curve because of it.
Humans are very visual learners, monkey see, monkey do.
Television opens up their world with one flick of a switch, and as children NEED to understand as much as they can about their world (it's an instinctual thing, understanding your reality is crucial to comfortable survival), TV is too tempting.I am more impressed with tele every day and just tonight, enjoyed a beautiful close time with my 7yo daughter, snuggling up together and watching "Stepmom."
Nothing is outside God's loving light! including television!
By julieintx on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 01:05 pm:We took the plunge and took the limits off the TV this summer. I too had been convinced that the kids would do "better" without too much TV (whatever that is). We had been limiting it since my oldest was a baby. Initially, the kids went nuts with it. Then they went through a fussing period where they just couldn't seem to get comfortable with themselves or each other. Currently, they don't watch television much more than they did before we lifted the limits. I have noticed that they watch more television when I am preoccupied with "my stuff" and not as involved as I should be with "their stuff."
Julie
By Adele Carrall on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 09:02 pm:Some days I would love to unplug it."
Some nights I feel that I would like to send ours to the local rubbish tip because there are no shows on that *I* want to watch but children gain a vast wealth of knowledge from watching and listening to television.
I read a posting somewhere which said that people have overly high expectations of 'home schooled' children. That hasn't been our experience and over the years we've been driven nuts by people who, thinking that because my children don't go to school they know absolutely nothing, try to feed them useless snippets of information or to put them through trivial little counting tests. A 'high' school teachers' aide who has visited our home (on a social basis) for years is one of the 'culprits' and how wonderful that now *every* time she tries to 'impart' 'information' about what *she* has learned at school both children pipe up and say, "We already know about that." Where did they learn about most of these topics (subjects - ugh!)? From television!
Because he was a more hands on learner I let him spend lots of time pondering, puttering and tinkering in the garage.
Because 'he was a more hands on learner' you could *see* more of the products of his learning and this has possibly caused you to believe that your children 'move onto better things' without television. After all, we can't see knowledge itself, only some of its products.
Regards,
Adele.P.S. One night, when my son was about five, he piped up and said, "Ah, this is the life! The whole family just sitting back, watching the Brady Bunch." But that's another aspect of the benefits of television.
By Kelly (Free2b) on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 09:57 pm:We are an unschooling TV viewing family. My 10 year old daughter and I have had years of watching our favorite shows together. We started when she was about four-with Barney the dinosaur, and now have a great time with Nickelodeon. We watch the Brady Bunch (as I am a single mom and my daughter is an only child I think the Brady Bunch is fascinating to her), we watch Gilligan's Island, Leave it to Beaver. We watch I Love Lucy and Full House, and Pokemon. My daughter is very imaginative and I have seen her favorite shows inspire her to build Gilligan's boat out of poster board, make paper dolls of the characters, write stories about them and act out many of the scenes. Many of the homeschoolers we know do not allow television, do not even have television. I don't feel like TV has cost us time from learning. My daughter may just grow up to work at Nickelodeon studios and develop her own cartoons. She is learning something she needs from this. I just wonder how to respond when a group of homeschooling parents talk about how they don't allow TV. I see their point, but also they do miss some great learning opportunities from not only kid's shows, but the learning channel or the discovery channel.
Kelly~whose home will most likely always have a least one TV. :)
By T.M. on Sunday, August 5, 2001 - 10:30 pm:We lived for three years with no TV, then later we started a fourteen-year run with only 2 or 3 channels. We've never had cable but I'd like to sometimes, the kids were entranced at my parents' house where they get Cartoon Network and the Discover Channel. Now we're back to 3 channels and it's still okay. My kids could easily get hooked on TV but we have so much fun watching shows together, laughing, and discussing so many things that come up in the programs that I would hate to give it up. I admit I'm afraid of cable though — so many choices. There are only four of us now but still, four people with many different interests... would the thing EVER be off? One of the boys tried to plan his day around the TV, just a couple of shows, but he avoided going places so he could be home to see them. I finally reminded him that we DO have a VCR — problem's gone now. :-)
By ren on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 03:15 am:I'm probably one of the only other people here that do believe it's ok to limit TV when necessary. I find my one son getting very lazy and not interested in other activities for DAYS on end if I don't say anything. If I say "ok, enough TV for today" and suggest that we do something, he is usually glad for it. If he's in the middle of something he really wants to watch I just say "ok, when that's over do you think we could go do something?" and he always is fine with that. I have relaxed a lot over the whole issue but I think there are some kids that are more addictive and affected by it than others. I just disagree with total self regulation on that topic....sorry. I do believe it is best to be relaxed over it and I'm glad that self-regulation works for all of you. Ren changed her mind about this later.read about her change of heart
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 09:48 am:I find my one son getting very lazy and not interested in other activities.
But anything sufficiently interesting will keep one from being interested in other activities. And "lazy" is a very negative picture from the outside. You don't see him moving, but you don't see him learning. I'm guessing (possibly wrongly!) that you aren't looking for learning very hard because you've already decided it's lazy and the absence of other (better) activities.
My husband has started making wooden stuff. A bench that comes apart, big enough for three adults, with a back. A folding screen for Holly's room. When he's working in the garage he's not interested in other stuff at all. He's no help to me with the kids. He's not interested in going out, he's not interested in anything else.
Kirby and Marty have a new game called Munchkin. They get involved in that and become deaf, and they don't know how much time is passing.
Concentration and involvement are usually considered to be a good thing, but people who are afraid of television see concentration and involvement as Very Bad when a TV or video is involved.
Sandra
By Joanna on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 11:41 am:I find my one son getting very lazy and not interested in other activities for DAYS on end if I don't say anything. If I say "ok, enough tv for today" and suggest that we do something, he is usually glad for it.
Why don't you just suggest the something else, without the reference to how much TV has been going on?
Even if you can't get the negativity about TV out of your mind, maybe gettting it out of your words would be a good step in not making it a taboo, "forbidden fruit" thing, to your son.
By julieintx on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 01:16 pm:Just a thought...
My 11yo niece who lives several states away came to stay a week with us for the first time recently. Her very controlling mother told me to limit the child to two hours of television a day because the kid becomes so engrossed and refuses to participate in other activities. I had no intention of following that rule and simply told the mom that TV isn't usually a big problem at our house. Now the child did spend about eight hours that week watching television...all in the last evening and morning she was at our home.
She was interested in our animals, playing with the babies, going to water parks, spending hours with Adriane upstairs listening to music and drawing, playing board games, etc. The girl told me that all her mom wants to do is go to the mall or go to the movies, activities the girl isn't interested in.
I posted earlier that my kids tend to watch more television (particularly repeats over and over) when I am more absorbed in my stuff. I think that possibly kids do get into a rut of watching television if there aren't more interesting things to do. (I know that sounded judgmental about television and I am working on that LOL.) But I do the same thing.
We spent a week with my mother in law (MIL) here, doing touristy things. Drove to Arkansas and spent a week there with relatives doing touristy things. Drove home with MIL and niece for a week visit. Two year old got into MIL's heart medicine and spent a couple of days in ICU (perfectly fine now).....after that I spent about four days barely moving...all my free time was television and I didn't care what was on...I just wanted to relax. I think kids get the same way.
Julie
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 01:48 pm:I think some of our collective TV angst has to do with homework, maybe.
When we (most of us?) were kids, TV was MAYBE for 'after homework,' but all the decent kid-stuff was right after school. So some kids lied about homework to get to watch some down-time, after-school TV (laughter is REALLY good for people who are stressed) or they rushed through homework and did a crummy job in hopes that they could get to the TV privilege before there was nothing but news and cop shows. But having done homework FOR the privilege of watching, I know kids who would have watched ANYTHING just to earn the payoff [to spend their earned TV credits, no matter how bad the show].
So TV was treated like a reward for some of us, and what we watched was not NEARLY as good as some of what is on now. (Those of you born in 1975 and after, this might not apply to you .)
Without homework to earn TV with, I think, some parents out of the corner of their brain think the kids have no reason to watch TV. They didn't do their homework.
If unschooling "homework" is all things, all the time (EXCEPT TV) then when and how will unschoolers ever earn the right to watch TV in peace?
I think some parents have not clearly looked at TV with new, objective, hopeful eyes.
Others have, and most of their kids are off doing something else.
Our house, this moment: Five kids. Six TVs. No TVs turned on.
I'm sure if I said "Why don't you all go and watch TV?" every one of them would say they didn't want to, they were doing this... or I need to be somewhere soon, or whatever.
I think, at noonish on a weekday, if I offered them $2 an hour to go watch TV I would get zero takers. I think it would take about $7 an hour to get them to sit for an hour and watch TV right now, and they would be arguing with me about it. "WHY SHOULD I WATCH THIS? IT'S STUPID!"
In our house TV is neither dinner nor dessert. It's just one of a thousand things. (None of the foods are dinner or dessert either, though...)
Sandra
By Angela Nordstrom (Noschoolathome) on Monday, August 6, 2001 - 02:20 pm:OK, I'm really seeing the whole TV issue in a new light.
Mitchell asked if we could watch a western this morning. So, we all got comfy on the couch and floor and watched "The River of No Return." Not only did we have a nice, relaxing time together, but I realized that Marilyn Monroe was actually a good actress!
After the movie, we all went our separate ways. Mitch is acting out the movie, Abby is preparing seeds for next years garden, and Noah and I are painting. (OK, Noah is driving his Matchbox cars in the paint and I'm admiring it while I type.)
Anyway, thanks for everybody sharing here. I feel much better, and so do the kids.
By Jessica on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 09:46 am:What a great thread on TV watching, a great reinforcement for my recently changed attitude toward it! The issue at our house now, "Can I have a TV in my room?" Not sure what led to that question, maybe the fact that all neighbors and cousins have one - I noticed Sandra has six! Any opinions on this one ?!
thanks - Jessica
By Steph on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 09:57 am:I think some parents have not clearly looked at TV with new, objective, hopeful eyes.
Others have, and most of their kids are off doing something else
yup..
And sometimes "too much TV" goes on at transition times, or at least that is what I find. Right now our house is half empty, with most of our tapes, books, and many toys, at the house we were set to move into a few weeks ago.The kids have been watching "too much TV" for what I like to have the house feel like. They just don't know what to do with themselves, and it has been raining like mad.
I think that many unschoolers/homeschoolers, etc. still make too clear a distinction between weekend and weekday. Years and years of training don't just go away instantly, y'know. Whereas most kids don't spend their weekends watching too much TV, the weekdays are often, maybe even not totally consciously, treated so differently that TV fills a vacuum.
Just a theory.
Steph
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 10:00 am:The issue at our house now, "Can I have a TV in my room?" Not sure what led to that question, maybe the fact that all neighbors and cousins have one - I noticed Sandra has six! Any opinions on this one ?!
Half of them were given to us. One my husband bought when he was working in Minneapolis for six months (that turned into 3.5 years or so). That one is in our bedroom now. My husband watches movies he likes—sci fi or war stuff—that he's not sure kids would like. It's not on much. Videos and news, husband-stuff.
Holly has one in her room just lately. She watched it a lot the first week. Lately it hasn't been on. I got her a remote control so she could turn it off when she got sleepy, but she likes to go to sleep with dark and quiet. She didn't get that from me—I like to read myself to sleep and turn the light off the first time I wake up. That one used to belong to our neighbor, who died in a nursing home earlier this year, and Holly inherited it.
Marty has one in his room, given to us for Keith helping a guy move. Nothing fancy, no VCR. His Playstation is hooked up to it. It's a pretty big screen, though. Marty has the most sinful viewing habits of all: he puts on a music video channel and although he has a timer, he usually forgets to set it and the music and lights stay on all night. But he sleeps like a log and it doesn't seem to bother him. So other than the slight waste of electricity and the noise pollution (he plays it really low) which irk me slightly, it's a minor sin as sins of pubescent boys go. And it keeps him from getting spooked at night. His room is the only one to hear noises from the front of the house, and sometimes he gets a little scared.
In the sewing room is a big old-timey one I use for background noise while I'm sewing, and something to look at during boring parts. It's very rarely on. It was given to us.
In the den is the real TV. It was bought used from a friend moving away. It's a console with a VCR and two video games hooked up to it.
Kirby has a little TV/VCR in his room. It's mostly a Nintendo 64 monitor.
We never meant to have so many, it just gradually happened. None of them seem to be axe-murdering TVs and the advantage of extras is no fighting. The disadvantage is less social gathering, but there definitely still is a fair amount of watching movies together in the den or in our bedroom, or of someone saying "COME LOOK!" about something exciting, and the nearest couple of people go and share.
My TV-free zone is the library and the kitchen and dining room next to there.
I have an iMac that will play DVD's... that might be considered 6.5 TVs to some people, then. All we have are musicals and one South Park DVD. Later Note: 2004, we have lots of DVDs, fewer TVs because two died normal old-TV death, and Marty got a new one for Christmas because his had developed a stripe that inhibited video game play.
By Joanna on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:05 pm:"Can I have a TV in my room?" Not sure what led to that question, maybe the fact that all neighbors and cousins have one - I noticed Sandra has six! Any opinions on this one ?! thanks - Jessica
I'm perfectly happy with just having a TV room.
I like the idea of the compromises it brings with it. It also, probably forces some viewing that would otherwise be bypassed, and that's not a bad thing either. Helps with common interests, or good discussions between us.My kids are still pretty young, and I'm not comfortable with what can be viewed on TV today, especially after 8 o clock. I would want to be right there to explain or answer questions.
I like the dynamics of our household right now, and am not having to deal with pressure to get a TV for any of my kids rooms. My 11yo has mentioned it a few times, and I have said no. But that's as far as it went. If I was getting real pressure, I would review the whole thing more closely and probably come away with a different attitude.
Jo
By julieintx on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 12:58 pm:I agree with Jo. We actually have two televisions, one we got as a door prize. The satellite is only hooked up to one. Jerry (dh) sometimes watches sports on the other one, usually when the poor compulsive thing has had way too much of the rest of us LOL.
I like the fact that the kids discuss what they want to watch and why with each other. I like the taking turns and sharing. I like that the shows become a shared activity.
Julie
By Sandra Lynn Dodd (Sandradodd) on Tuesday, August 7, 2001 - 01:10 pm:When the kids were little and we had one TV, a very small one, there were advantages to that too. There were advantages to a bigger TV. In our old house, the kids used to eat in front of the TV, and do art, because that's the only place we had room for a table.
They still get together to watch things sometimes, as it's more fun to comment or be able to ask questions. It's nice not to have to negotiate someone to finish a video game so we can watch a video, though. Video games cause crowds to gather too. We're all following Holly's Harvest Moon life. She has another invisible chicken. Feeds four, gets four eggs, only three show. (She watered it with the sprinkler on purpose, like she did accidentally last time.)
I could argue the advantages of any stage of our TV history. I've been pretty happy with all of it!
Sandra
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