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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 9:26:19 PM
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Hi! I'm not sure whether to post this here or on the meeting state requirements board...
I'm a mother of four kids, three of whom are schooled at home. We recently moved from eclectic home schooling to unschooling. The kids are happier and I'm feeling, mostly, like I wish I'd had the guts to let go of my fears and try this sooner. EXCEPT that I have this one last fear, regarding addiction to video games.
You see, one of my DDs is spending every waking moment on Runescape (an online multiplayer role playing game). She's been playing for about two weeks straight, 14 hours a day, barely stopping to use the bathroom, forgets to eat because she is so absorbed in what she is doing.
I'm not too surprised at this turn of events. I know that Runescape CAN be very absorbing, because there are many skills to be mastered, quests to undertake, etc., etc. Also, I have just decided to let go of the idea that "video games are a waste of time" so the freedom to play for as long as she wants to play is new and exciting.
HOWEVER, when I try to engage DD in a conversation about the game, all she has to say about it is: "I kill people and take their money, or else I pick people's pockets. I like to get money and buy things." I continue to express my interest and ask what else she is doing, and she says, "Nothing else. I just want to get stronger so that I can win more fights and get more money to buy more things."
Ooooh-kay. Deep breath. This is SO out of whack with the values that I espouse; still I know it is only a game and this doesn't mean that DD will grow up to be a murderer or a thief. Right? And as she is the youngest child in the family, I can understand that it must feel very good to have an online avatar who is stronger than other people.
BUT, what is she learning? To kill people and to take their money. Or to pick their pockets? Anything else? SHE can't think of anything else she is learning, and the only other thing I can see is, perhaps, she is learning to read a map. And perhaps, a bit of economics: get money, buy things.
STILL, if this really isn't an addiction--and it wouldn't seem like an addiction if she would at least listen to her body to stop and eat when she is hungry, and/or if she were spending all day playing a VARIETY of games--I still have the problem of living in New York State, where reporting requirements are very strict.
If she spends this next quarter of the school year playing RUNESCAPE every available waking moment, I won't have a great deal to report. I'm afraid I'll have to either out-and-out lie about what skills she's mastered, or else end up with our home school program on probation, which would effectively prevent us from unschooling. And I don't like to lie.
I do know "educationalese." So sledding goes into the report under the rubric of SCIENCE, specifically, "experimentations in Newtonian physics." Even so, I don't see that she is learning "enough" (according to the standards of the Great State of New York--blech!) to keep us off of probation... unless I lie.
So, to sum up, two questions: How can I reassure myself that my daughter is not addicted to this game? And can anybody see a way that I can just let her do her thing WITHOUT having to lie on the quarterly report and WITHOUT ending up on probation?
Help! And THANKS!
Kelly |
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dezigna
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - Feb 19 2008 : 10:31:30 PM
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Little to report?!!? Go directly to this page and read all of it (allow plenty of time - many links to follow):
/videogames
Also take her easy to eat finger foods and drinks that she likes at appropriate intervals.
I would back off from the questioning, which sounds a bit like quizzing. It sounds to me like she is giving you the kind of answers she would give someone who didn't really know anything about the game, rather like the superficial answers we give to nosey people who ask "what's unschooling" but are only asking to be polite and don't really want to know about it. Her words sound a bit like code for "leave me alone, I'm busy."
If you want to have real conversations with her about Runescape or any other game, the easiest answer is to play yourself. It reminds me of Anne Ohman who recently learnt guitar along with her sons so that they could play together. What a true affirmation of the value of their interests! I play computer games with my dd all the time, and my dh and she play Nintendo every day and it is such a bonding experience for them.
On a more philosophical note, it is up to you to jump the legal hoops and do the reporting, not put the responsibility of showing you/them what is learnt on to your dd. My philosophy is to shield my dd from the legal aspects entirely. I would be very surprised if after looking at even some of the articles and linked material from the page I mentioned, you didn't find it very easy to see the learning possibilities in gaming.
In general I would encourage you to just let go of the concept of anything our children love being an "addiction". It is an idea that creates mental barriers to Unschooling. It makes our kids interests and passions seem scary and wrong and difficult to support, instead of motivating us to embrace and exult in them. I would suggest that every time you start to think that any of your children are "addicted to" something, that you investigate your own assumptions and fears about that thing instead.
Oh, Sandra has a lot collected stories about Maps too. The easiest thing is to type "maps" into the search engine on her home page.
www.sandradodd/unschooling
I know there are Unschoolers in New York. Some of them might be here and might have some hints and tips for the reporting aspect. In general, give the authorities only as much as the letter of the law requires and no more.
I suppose as a last resort you could consider moving to New Jersey. Good h/s laws there, I understand.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 12:15:56 AM
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Thanks for the advice! I have read Sandra's article about gaming already, but DD isn't taking her gaming experience to all those other levels that Sandra talks about... yet. So, I am well aware of the learning *possibilities* that the games offer; it's just that for right now, at least, DD is playing one game exclusively and in one very limited way. Okay, I'm new to this. I need to breathe deep and give her time to continue to unfold in her own way.
Also, just to clarify..hoping I'm not sounding too defensive...I've been logging on to another computer and playing the game, too, to show my DD that what interests her, interests me. This was at her request, not a matter of me butting in. My questions are meant to elicit a feeling in her of, "You know more about this than me; can you help me understand what I am trying to achieve?" Maybe I DO sound like I'm quizzing her, but if I don't talk to her about Runescape, we just won't talk. It's all she's interested in! Hmm... I guess I'll have to be more careful with my speech, so I won't come across as grilling her.
Your point that I should shield the kids from the legal aspects of unschooling is GREAT! I hadn't really thought of it like that before. DUH! But then again, she is going to have to take a standardized test in 4th grade, so I can't TOTALLY shield her. With my older kids, they look at what the test is measuring, and spend a short period of time in the weeks before the test focused on that... and then they go back to pursuing their true interests. It's not ideal, but I think it's the best we can do with our state being so strict.
Now that I'm getting on board, I actually WOULD like to move to a state where the reporting requirements are less onerous. But the whole family loves so many aspects of the very special community we live in... I guess I'll just have to figure out some way to fudge the reports.
You've given me food for thought, and I really appreciate your taking the time to do so. I am realizing that what is scaring me about DD engaging in a very limited range of activities is that she is missing out on so much that the rest of us enjoy: nature walks, painting, science experiments, cooking meals together and etc. And she comes from a background of deprivation (lived for four years in an orphanage, then joined our family three years ago), so when she chooses to engage in a very limited range of activities (murder, robbery, pick pocketing, and acquisition of weapons...) when the game actually offers SO MANY others activities, well, it looks to me like she is placing limits on herself similar to those placed on her when she was living an institutionalized life.
As well, when we go ahead and do the things that we feel are fun and meaningful, and she chooses not to join in, I worry that she will get the feeling that we are excluding her. As an adopted child in a family that includes both adopted and biological children, I am especially sensitive to the adopted kids' feelings of being different, of having been rejected by parental figures in the past, and all that. So, I guess I just need to trust that she understands that when she declines our invitations, she is not being excluded.
Clearly, I need to take a step back and see the positives: she's growing stronger in the game, experiencing feelings of competence and personal power, and given how much time she devoting to the endeavor, it clearly is very important to her.
Thanks again!
Kelly |
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Sandra Dodd
USA
1419 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 12:29:17 AM
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-=- still I know it is only a game and this doesn't mean that DD will grow up to be a murderer or a thief. Right? -=-
Right.
-=-Thanks for the advice! I have read Sandra's article about gaming already, but DD isn't taking her gaming experience to all those other levels that Sandra talks about... yet. -=-
Please check that page again:
/videogames
It's not an article by me. It's links to lots of other people's writings. If you follow half of those links, all your worries will be lessened.
-=As well, when we go ahead and do the things that we feel are fun and meaningful, and she chooses not to join in,-=-
Please be careful about "we."
-=-I guess I'll just have to figure out some way to fudge the reports.-=-
Hook up with some locals. And instead of doing what you consider cheating, it would be better for your whole family if you learn enough more about unschooling that you can honestly describe the huge amount of learning that you can't yet see.
Feed her. Robyn suggested that. Seriously, take food to her where she can reach it. Read about Runescape while she's playing it elsewhere. You can learn more about it even without playing it.
-=- Maybe I DO sound like I'm quizzing her, but if I don't talk to her about Runescape, we just won't talk. -=-
So? I hope you're not charting the amount of time you talk with each of your children, or trying to keep it even. And statements like "If I don't... we won't" are very often hyperbole-to-fallacy.
-=-My questions are meant to elicit a feeling in her of, "You know more about this than me; can you help me understand what I am trying to achieve?" -=-
It might be good to think of your communications in less contrived ways. Don't question her in ways intended to elicit specific feelings. It would be better to replace that with honest communication. Bring her food and tell her you're glad to see her having fun. Kiss her on the head and leave.
-=- It's not ideal, but I think it's the best we can do with our state being so strict.-=-
The state might not be as strict as you have been led to believe, and the test might be something she can breeze through and not worry about. I don't know what level of score you "need" or who (if anyone) sees the scores. Don't live your life around tests, though. /testing/tests
-=- it's just that for right now, at least, DD is playing one game exclusively and in one very limited way. -=-
What if your child were reading Lord of the Rings, and you wrote "it's just that for right now, DD is reading one book exclusively and in one very limited way"?
-=-And she comes from a background of deprivation (lived for four years in an orphanage, then joined our family three years ago), so when she chooses to engage in a very limited range of activities (murder, robbery, pick pocketing, and acquisition of weapons...) -=-
This almost made me angry. Your daughter is NOT engaging in murder. She is safe at her home sitting in a chair.
Your daughter is NOT engaging in robbery. Did she steal that game from your neighbors? Did she steal money to buy that game?
Your daughter is NOT engaged in pick-pocketing. She's playing out a story, as a character.
What weapons does your daughter own? Guns? Knives? I think she has pixel-pictures of toy weapons in a game. She has a remote control, not a weapon.
/violence
Sandra Dodd
/unschooling
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dezigna
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 03:15:23 AM
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I was struck by your equating your dd's life in her orphanage with the fantasy crime life she is enacting in her game.
If the orphanage life that she was living was genuinely dangerous and scary because of the presence of thieves and weapons, if she was victimized and disempowered by that experience, perhaps this fantasy role play, of being very powerful and being able to survive the virtual (in-game) consequences in complete physical and hopefully emotional (if you can stop any judging) safety is absolutely crucial to her healing. Better she act out her search for empowerment and possibly revenge in this virtual world than in real life.
Perhaps her life in the orphanage was so circumscribed and her time so controlled, including being forced to engage in group activities at the expense of her private meditations, that just being allowed to opt out of a family activity is like a big dose of freedom and blissful trust.
PS The immersion likely won't last forever. The great thing will be that the group outings will still be there when she is ready to join in.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com |
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cc2angels
54 Posts |
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 6:05:13 PM
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WOW, Sandra! OUCH! That really hurt! Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
Here I thought a major point of living a RU life is to be RESPECTFUL of other people, including (and especially) people who just so happen to be younger than us. But so much in your response to me sounds pretty darned condescending towards me.
"I hope you're not charting how much time you talk with each of your children..."
(No, and why would you think I was, or even make such an outrageous suggestion?)
"...it would be better for your whole family if you learn enough more about unschooling that you can honestly describe the huge amount of learning that you can't yet see."Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
(Um, YEAH! That's why I'm here, asking questions!)
You may as well just say, "Wow! You're an idiot!" to me. Why can't you show me the same respect you would show a child, I wonder? I am REALLY asking, "How do I complete a quarterly report for this child when she is spending every waking moment engaged in virtual murder, virtual robbery, and virtual theft?" And rather than answering, you just send me back to links I've already read, which have to do with a RANGE of activities that gamers pursue, which is NOT how my daughter is playing.
And you KNEW I meant that when I said she is choosing to engage in murder, robbery, and pick-pocketing. Clearly, I meant, "within the context of the game, to the exclusion of all the other things she could be doing in the game." You CHOSE to misinterpret my words, and to get "almost" mad at me, which sure feels like you are REALLY mad at me and shaming me publicly... another thing you wouldn't do to a child.Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
As for the tests, it must be great to live in a state where reporting in to the school district quarterly and taking annual tests is NOT required, but unfortunately we DON'T live in such a state. I am well familiar with the test, as my older kids have had to take them, and she will have to score in the 33rd centile, and if she doesn't choose to spend some time practicing for it, then she WILL fail.
She has only been exposed to English for three years, she is dealing with subtractive bilingualism, she has no language to adequately express her deepest conceptualizations, and none of it would matter if we didn't have to face the test. But we do. It's not "living our lives around testing." But it IS avoiding being put on probation and/or forced to send DD to school. That is a REALITY in NY State, and as much as we might all hate wasting time on test prep so that we can show the powers that be that we know "enough" about what they think we should be learning in order to go back to what we each actually want to be spending out time doing.
The irony is that if she were in enrolled in school, she'd be enrolled in ESOL and therefore exempted from the testing. Schools can fail, or opt certain kids out of testing, but parents can't.
Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
Oh, and I HAVE talked to local folks. They just lie on the quarterly reports. That's why I came here looking for another option. Could you perhaps give me one, WITHOUT the "holier than thou" attitude?
Really, she's virtually killing, virtually robbing, and virtually pick-pocketing. I have to show "achievement equivalent to publicly schooled students" in the areas of science, math, language arts, social studies... and others, but those I've got figured out.
I'm really not looking for a flame war; honest! But do you actually listen to your own tone when you reply to others?Javascript:insertsmilie(' ')
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MommySica
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 8:54:25 PM
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Well Said 'lifeisgr8'! I agree with you 100%! I understood what you meant with out you having to break it down. My advice to you is relax...as with all 'new' things this will wear out it's fun-ness! You can try to create a countdown calendar to the test to show your daughter that it is in fact coming up, and runescape will be ther after the test...
Good Luck!
Sica
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cc2angels
54 Posts |
Posted - Feb 20 2008 : 9:53:46 PM
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I second MommySica's reply to you lifeisgr8.
RESPECT, is supposed to be a two way street...
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jfetteroll
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 04:27:33 AM
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**You can try to create a countdown calendar to the test to show your daughter that it is in fact coming up, and runescape will be ther after the test.**
The burden of being able to homeschool shouldn't be placed on the child's shoulders. That's mom's responsibility. Yes, it makes it tough! But our kids aren't responsible for our choices.
If we choose not to get the dishwasher fixed, the dishes don't automatically become everyone's responsibility! (We can ask for help. The kids can say no thanks. But the responsibility is still ours because it's our *choice* not to fix it.)
** RESPECT, is supposed to be a two way street... **
Probably if you polled conventional parents you'd get a huge agreement on that.
But in reality we can't force someone else to be respectful. It has the total opposite effect. And if we withhold our respect until they show it back, it's far less likely to come.
Respectful behavior comes from being respected. Children learn how to respect others by being respected. We become people they want to act respectful towards by being respectful of them.
https://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Over on the right are several responses to the common attitudes towards respect.
Ask yourself how you would feel if your husband made you do something that you didn't see the point in and made a countdown chart of when you had to do it. How would you feel with a constant reminder of the deadline looming? How would you feel toward your husband? Would you feel more respectful of him?
Joyce
Rejoycing - Joyce on Unschooling and Peaceful Parenting
Dragon Writing Prompts for speculative fiction writers
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Schuyler
United Kingdom
87 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 04:41:08 AM
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It really helps if you read someone's writing with the understanding that they are trying to help you and not attack you. Even emoticons don't really demonstrate the range of emotions that listening to someone's voice and watching their face and body language can do.
The point of coming to an unschooling forum is often to get help and not to get support. Not that those two things are exclusive but getting help usually means moving from where you are to where you want to be within whatever problem you are immersed, while getting support is more about being lauded for where you are. Often it is simply the way you are thinking about something that can change how you address a problem. At Live and Learn this year Diana Jenner gave a talk called Change Your Perspective, Change Your Life https://liveandlearnshop.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=109 that really addresses how much your point of view can change the way you approach a problem or perceive whether or not it is a problem. If you reread what Sandra wrote from a less defensive posture you will find she is challenging your perspective and not attacking you.
Schuyler
https://waynforth.blogspot.com/ |
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sally
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 08:11:15 AM
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I think it's always a good idea to read the Posting Policies when I'm new to a forum. Sometimes when I'm asking for help with an immediate problem it seems like there's no time to waste, but I always feel more comfortable with the responses I get if I've taken a little bit of effort to get a feel for the community and their perspective. http://www.unschooling.info/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20
I found this suggestion most helpful: quote:
8. Our brains automatically supply a "tone" to posts as we read. It can be helpful to imagine your best friend speaking the words you are reading, in the gentlest, most well-meaning tone you can imagine.
That being said, I thought Sandra's best point was this one:
quote:
She's playing out a story, as a character.
Suppose that her online characters were characters in a classic live-action game (think Dungeons and Dragons) or in a play. Would you have difficulty supporting her if she were playing a member of the thieves' guild in a D&D campaign with a bunch of other gamers or if she were spending all of her waking hours memorizing lines to play Fagan (a thief and kidnapper) in "Oliver Twist"? How about if she were cast as the White Witch in "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe"? I played that role when I was 11 years old, and it hasn't turned me into a murderer, a liar, or even a bad-tempered sorceress. Can you look at your daughter's gaming as a form of fantasy play, like acting? It may even help you with your reports. :)
Sally
Un-preschooling mom to Will (2.5) and Elias (5 mos) |
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MommySica
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 09:20:39 AM
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Wow...I don't know where to start first...
**You can try to create a countdown calendar to the test to show your daughter that it is in fact coming up, and runescape will be ther after the test.**
The burden of being able to homeschool shouldn't be placed on the child's shoulders. That's mom's responsibility. Yes, it makes it tough! But our kids aren't responsible for our choices.
Yes it is! It is their responsibility to learn, and participate! Just like anything in life...
If we choose not to get the dishwasher fixed, the dishes don't automatically become everyone's responsibility! (We can ask for help. The kids can say no thanks. But the responsibility is still ours because it's our *choice* not to fix it.)
In our house this is a family choice, so therefore the family abides by our decisions and the consequences. Your example of the dishwasher is absurd! I must say that if our dishwasher broke that we would all take turns doing dishes...as I am not the only one to dirty them! As a family if we were unable to fix the dishwasher or if we chose not too...the results would be the same...everyone pithces in.
As far as this site offering help...not support I find frustrating. We are all trying to encourage our children and sometimes we need an outside source to offer insight, thoughts, comments, etc...I see this as support. If these types of responses are common then I don't see the benefit of this whole posting system.
Now it's just me going off on a tangent.
Sica
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 12:02:27 PM
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Oh, we are just going around and around here!
If one of our children asks for help, do we just say, "Go look it up yourself!" That's the general response I've gotten here. ("Go back to that page, follow those links, read them again...")
And even if you say, "Yes, we want them to be responsible for their own learning, so we DO say, 'Go look it up yourself...'" well then, what if they came back to us and said, "I've looked at X, Y, and Z, and I still can't figure it out." Would you ever say, "Well, then it's just your responsibility to learn more about it so that you can honestly understand it better." That's what Sandra said to me. I'm really trying to hear that in a respectful tone, and I just can't hear it. It REALLY sounds condescending. There is a BIG unstated, "You're not really TRYING to understand this, are you?" hanging out there at the end of Sandra's statement.
I AM on board with the ideas that video games can be educational. I don't need my perceptions challenged. I need my questions answered.
For example: in Language Arts, I understand that she is reading and writing as she converses online with other players. However, according to state regs, she is supposed to be reading short chapter books. I'm a total believer that reading and writing dialogue is, at this point in time, a more meaningful learning experience for her, because she is choosing it, and obviously engrossed in it. I don't really care if she never, ever, in her whole childhood reads a short chapter book. But it puts me back into the position of lying. And all I'm getting here is, "Well, that's your problem, not hers."
It all comes back to this: I am stuck in a state where I have to give specific examples of learning that has occurred in specific subject areas. Instead of challenging me to change my perceptions about the role of gaming in unschooling, I am asking if you can help me to figure out how virtual murder and virtual theft can be translated to educratese to provide examples of learning in social studies, etc., etc. Yeah, I can say she continues to work with mapping skills, but that's about it.
In writing, for example, I am supposed to be able to say that she writes "legibly, right to left, top to bottom" none of which I can gauge when she is typing all the time. Typing is always legible, and it forces you to write right to left and top to bottom. The regs are stupid, yes, and it's my problem, not hers, yes, but I was looking for help with my problem, for support, and instead I just got yelled at. And no, I'm not being defensive. I got yelled at for asking for help. Everybody (excepting two people who posted to agree that Sandra was less than kind) says I need an attitude adjustment.
Um, no. I need help. But I guess I need to give up and realize that although this board is supposedly about how to meet state regs, REAL advice on how to do that is not given here. Lectures on how I am not where I am supposed to be on the unschooling journey are given here. Statements that I am looking for validation for where I am right now are here. "Here's what you can say on the quarterly report..." is NOT here.
Honestly: "...it would be better for your whole family if you learn enough more about unschooling that you can honestly describe the huge amount of learning that you can't yet see." Is there REALLY a way to see this a a gentle, kind, caring response?
Here's an analogy: right now, my older DD and my younger DS are concerned about global warming, falling supplies of fossil fuels, rising demands for same, and hidden downsides to supposedly "green" energy alternatives. They are engaged in lots of research, and want to know how to sort it all out. Should I just say, "Well, if you just took the time to learn for yourself more about outlining and organizing...by the way, here are some books that describe those processes..well, then, you'd be able to find a way to organize it, which is something that you just can't see." I think that sounds pretty unkind and condescending.
I AM interpreting people's responses in the kindest gentlest way possible. "Bring her food. Play with her. Kiss her on the head. Really learn about Runescape. Really learn about gaming." etc. Did I respond with "DUH! I'm her mother; of COURSE I am doing all of that?" No, b/c I know that you meant well in giving the advice.
However, CHOOSING to misinterpret what I was saying, as Sandra did with my statement that DD is only robbing, killing, and purchasing weapons, and take it out of context, (the context being, "within the game, to the exclusion of all the many possibilities the game has to offer) and then criticize the statement... which is a statement I did NOT make... is NOT respectful and there is no way to imagine it is. It is twisting words to make a point, and not caring if you shame somebody in the process.
As it so happen, DD does steal in RL, not just online, and she is physically violent. Does she own a real weapon? No. Or yes. It depends on how you define "weapon." Will she throw books at people's faces, bash them with tree branches while out on a nature walk, destroy other people's property just to try to get a rise out of them? Without any external provocation that any of us (including DD herself) can identify? Yes. She has Reactive Attachment Disorder, which is understandable, given her rough start in life.
She is continuing to need to heal, to learn to trust, to realize that no matter what she does to try to push us away, we will be here for her. She needs to learn to distinguish between some of her behaviors, which all of us (including DD herself) do not like, and herSELF, whom we all love dearly. In fact, this learning: about trust, about how all feelings are okay to feel (but there are good and not-so-good ways to express them), about how families love you forever, no matter what... all of this learning is more important than any "academic" learning, IMO.
Anyway, the point that it's better that she's engaging in online murder and theft rather than in RL is a really very interesting and thought-provoking point! But if you haven't tried to raise a child who is struggling with the psycho-social scars that come from being rejected/abandoned by birth family, then raised in an institutional setting where she was forever being told what to do...which is really not a good situation for anybody to be in, but had to be incredibly frustrating for such a high spirited child as my DD... well, if you don't know her, how can you say that my way of interacting with her is "artificial"?
I find such a response to be extremely presumptuous. I am TRYING to hear that in a way that is gentle and respectful, but it is hard to hear it that way, just as it is hard to hear "why don't you go and really learn about unschooling?" in a gentle, respectful way. (And don't tell me, I've already gotten in figured out: It was my choice to bring a child with these needs into the family, so it's MY PROBLEM to figure out. Fine. I OWN that. I grok that.)
Likewise, I can see that the suggestion that my questions to DD are annoying her, and that her responses are meant to be off-putting, is a well-intentioned response. But again, you don't know my DD, how delightfully talkative she is, how much in need of positive interaction with a caring adult she is, and how she LOVES to be the one in charge of any given situation. My asking for her advice in how to play is something that she finds very empowering. The fact that she doesn't say anything more about the game than, "Let's kill that guy and take his money..." is scary, given who she is and what she's been through.
The "experts" (I've grown to distrust most experts) would tell you that a kid with Reactive Attachment Disorder needs to INTERACT, not withdraw into a video game. Yes, she IS interacting... with total strangers... in a virtual world. Not with her family in RL. And I am allowing her to do that. And it is a big leap of faith, but I AM doing it. But yet getting scolded for "not getting it, really."
And Joyce, we weren't talking about respect between parent and child; we were talking about respect between one adult posting and another adult posting. As in, my words being twisted and taken out of context in order so that somebody else could give a lecture. Again I ask: How many of us would do this to our children? Twist their words? Take them out of context? And then lecture them about how wrong they were to say something... which they never, in fact, said? Gentle? Kind? I REALLY don't think so.
As far as, "If she were engaged in X, Y, or Z" instead of a video game, how would you react? I would react just the same: wondering how to allow her to immerse herself in whatever it was, for however long she choose, and still write the state reports without lying, without saying for example, that she's been working with missing addends this quarter, when in fact, she hasn't. It stinks to be in a highly regulated state, but we are.
I would also worry about the psycho-social implications, given my daughter's background, and her issues with still needing to learn how to deal with her feelings, but really, that is something that I AM taking a big leap of faith on, so please, no more lectures about it!
Sandra's question about LOTR requires a slightly different response, even though the question was meant as a hypothetical. If DD were reading only The Lord of the Rings, and only in a very limited way, I would discuss that with her. So now you are wondering what reading in a limited way is, as Sandra clearly meant that question to highlight how RIDICULOUS my questions about Runescape were. But, it IS possible to read in a limited way, and in fact DD does this.
She can easily read at a 3rd grade level (FWIW...I don't really care; I'm only keeping track b/c I have to report it to the state) but often picks up the young adult novels that her older brother and sister are reading. She tries to sound out words, loses the meaning of the story in the struggle to sound out vocabulary that is above her, gets frustrated, and feels bad about herself for being the littlest and, in her own mind, the least competent. We do NOT encourage competition or comparison, so if she were reading a book like that, I would find a time when she felt like snuggling up and chatting with me, and I would say something like:
"When I was seven, I noticed that my mom and dad were always really proud of me when I got good grades at school. I decided that the better I did in school, the more they would love me. So I would do things like check books out of the library that were really too hard for me to read, but I would pretend to read them, and my parents would point me out to their friends and say, 'Look at our smart daughter! See what a difficult book she can read!' Then I felt like a liar and a cheater and I felt mad at myself about that, and mad at my parents that they couldn't be just as happy if I chose to read _The Cat in the Hat_ instead. I just want YOU to know that I love you just exactly the way you are. You don't have to DO anything more or BE anything more, because I already love you as much as anybody could possibly love anybody. I love you SO much. You don't have to prove to me that you are smart. You don't have to prove anything to me. And I wanted to tell you that."
Let me guess: I sound artificial. I give up. I've learned there's no help to be found here, just lectures about how I'm not good enough and not trying hard enough. WOWEE! My natural learning experience for the past two days. Ask for help, don't get help. Give up. |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 12:24:04 PM
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Kelly, it sounds like you've got a very special girl there. I'm so glad to know she's found a home where she's loved and trusted.
I agree with the people who said you should shelter her from the legal requirements of homeschooling, and I disagree with this:
It is their responsibility to learn, and participate! Just like anything in life...
Fear shouldn't drive *anything* in your home; it certainly shouldn't cause you to take choices away from your kids. And it isn't their responsibility to meet the arbitrary requirements�and they certainly are arbitrary, judging by the breadth of homeschooling laws in this country alone�of a governing body that has never even met your children. You take care of the pesky details, the kids live their lives.
Also, it seems to me that you have plenty of ammo for a shining quarterly report. Did you see Schuyler's post on your cross-posted version of this thread? Take all of that and couch it in terms of the Individualized Home Instruction Plan that you have put in place to help your daughter heal from the traumas of her early childhood, strengthen her English language skills, and begin to thrive in a variety of environments.
as much as we might all hate wasting time on test prep
Stop. You're assuming test prep is necessary, and you're assuming that it's the prep that allows your children to score well on the tests. Consider this intriguing idea: What if the test prep is actually causing them to *lose* test points?
We live in Washington state and are required to test (or be evaluated) annually. We never prepare for the tests. In fact, scheduling the damned things is usually a last-minute afterthought. :-) We typically test by the rules, with time limits and closed books (the latter because neither of my daughters bothers to take advantage of her freedom to look up anything she wants to look up). They do the sections they want to do, and fiddle around and make designs in the sections they don't want to do. Neither of them has ever scored below the 33rd percentile.
I realize your daughter faces additional challenges, and I understand why that makes you fearful, but think through the worst that can happen. Let's say she scores low (I would never call this "failing," by the way - ick). What happens next? You have a meeting with somebody probably. In the meeting, you explain your daughter's background. You talk about your joy in the progress she's made in such a short time, how amazed you are by her recovery, and how confident you are that there is steady improvement. Then what? You don't know what happens next, but we'll take the worst case. They insist on putting her back in school. Then what? You appeal. You fight. You hire a lawyer.
You move.
I understand how scary the worst case is. But remember that you will not be helpless at any stage of it (if it even happens, which I doubt it will; as soon as they find out she's ESL, they'll back off). You will continue to have options, and power, and you will continue to be your daughter's shield.
And I'll go you one step further. Let's assume I am completely wrong in my interpretation of NY laws and their consequences (entirely possible). Erase, erase, erase much of the above.
Okay. Now, what's your bottom line? What are your choices *in this moment*?
* Let her continue to play Runescape in freedom, or start restricting her time in the game.
As an unschooler, that should be a no-brainer, right?
* Trust your daughter, or assume she doesn't know what's best for herself.
Also a no-brainer.
* Live your lives *knowing* that all is and will continue to be well, or live your lives in fear.
Not such a hard choice, is it?
Breathe through your fear. Trust your daughter. Get practical and creative about meeting the laws. And shift your focus to the fun and exploration and healing�in addition to the learning�that she is pursuing.
WOW, Sandra! OUCH!
As an aside, I thought Sandra's reply was pretty mild. But I have in the past been the one saying "ouch" after reading one of Sandra's posts, so I'll tell you what I figured out: If I was getting mad and feeling hurt and defensive, it meant Sandra had hit on something that I needed to take a closer look at. She is the Queen of Shakabuku. :-)
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 12:36:20 PM
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Okay, now I'm breathing deep. We were composing at the same time, so I hadn't seen your long post when I posted the above.
I am asking if you can help me to figure out how virtual murder and virtual theft can be translated to educratese to provide examples of learning in social studies, etc., etc.
And you're assuming we understood this question. It is not stated clearly in your original post. I'll give it some thought and get back to you. |
Edited by - dragonfly on Feb 21 2008 12:37:28 PM |
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Unschooling Information - Newbie/Need Help (X-Posted to TV/Video)
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 1:01:47 PM
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=As an aside, I thought Sandra's reply was pretty mild. But I have in the past been the one saying "ouch" after reading one of Sandra's posts, so I'll tell you what I figured out: If I was getting mad and feeling hurt and defensive, it meant Sandra had hit on something that I needed to take a closer look at.=
Well, we can all have our different POVs about that. Sure, MANY, MANY times I've met a person who has really BOTHERED me, and all I need to do is examine "WHY?" to see, "Oh, they're exhibiting a trait that I myself possess and don't feel so good about."
But equally, people can be RUDE. People say, "You're just being defensive..." like being defensive is a bad thing. But when somebody is attacking you, defending yourself is the correct response. It's NOT a bad thing.
I asked a question. My words WERE twisted and taken out of context in order for Sandra to give a lecture. I don't think any of us would want to respond to our children's questions in that manner.
Perhaps those of you who cannot see the truth of this are the ones feeling threatened, or feeling that your hero is being threatened. This creates a wall in which it would be very difficult for the offending party to own up to making a mistake, to not living by her own ideals, to being unkind and disrespectful.
A sincere apology is a wonderful thing, but it requires the offending party to actually climb over the ego walls and realizes, "Hey, yeah; I can see that I did make a mistake, and I hurt somebody... or tried to, at least, and that's not what I'm about. That's not who I want to be."
Really, look at what was said. If somebody spoke to a child in that way, would you say they were being "mild?"
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 2:29:25 PM
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or feeling that your hero is being threatened
Jeez, Kelly.
I respect Sandra, and I am grateful for the way she has challenged me in the past, and I am continuously glad for the resources she provides via her site. But I don't blindly defend her, and I don't feel threatened when she is criticized. I gave you my honest opinion about her post.
If somebody spoke to a child in that way, would you say they were being "mild?"
I think there have been some misunderstandings in this thread. You probably didn't realize that using the word "Newbie" in your subject line would cause me to filter your post for the types of concerns that newbies often bring to this board (and subsequently find that the content of your post echoed some very typical newbie fears about video games). I definitely didn't realize that you wanted us to offer language for your quarterly report. I thought your original post was mostly about feelings, honestly. Thus my original reply.
Now this thread is about how certain people post and how they might do better to post differently. If you haven't read here much, then maybe you don't realize this topic of conversation has come up before. I'm pretty bored with it.
Take what you like out of the replies you get. If people are misunderstanding what you need, clarify. Check your emotions at the door and pick through the responses for the things that will help you. Please skip the attacks.
"Bring her food. Play with her. Kiss her on the head. Really learn about Runescape. Really learn about gaming." etc. Did I respond with "DUH! I'm her mother; of COURSE I am doing all of that?" No, b/c I know that you meant well in giving the advice.
Yes, and many people who come here expect their kids to leave what they are doing and come to the table to eat, and many think gaming is a waste of time (something you said you had "just decided" to let go of) and won't stoop to participating.
As for the "kiss her on the head" part, I thought that was a lovely and specific response to a specific concern of yours. That is what loving support of a video-game interest looks like; that is how you give your child space to enjoy herself and learn.
And "learn about Runescape" is advice to stop picking your child's brain as you figure out how to meet the legal requirements of your state. It's not fair.
My words WERE twisted and taken out of context
I disagree. Our phrasing can reveal inner thoughts that we haven't admitted even to ourselves. There was at least a chance that your phrasing here was a Freudian slip, especially in the context of your original post:
"This is SO out of whack with the values that I espouse"
"if this really isn't an addiction"
"BUT, what is she learning? To kill people and to take their money. Or to pick their pockets?"
That you came close to making Sandra mad (someone who seems to be pretty unflappable, at least in what she shows us in her posts) could be as a hint that your phrasing was poor.
I am asking if you can help me to figure out how virtual murder and virtual theft can be translated to educratese to provide examples of learning in social studies, etc., etc.
Does anybody have any of Anne Ohman's sample IHIPs or quarterly reports? She posted them to unschooling.com once upon a time.
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cc2angels
54 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 2:33:49 PM
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..."Perhaps those of you who cannot see the truth of this are the ones feeling threatened, or feeling that your hero is being threatened. This creates a wall in which it would be very difficult for the offending party to own up to making a mistake, to not living by her own ideals, to being unkind and disrespectful.
A sincere apology is a wonderful thing, but it requires the offending party to actually climb over the ego walls and realizes, "Hey, yeah; I can see that I did make a mistake, and I hurt somebody... or tried to, at least, and that's not what I'm about. That's not who I want to be."
EXACTLY lifeisgr8. You hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
You are being honest about your feelings. And you have the right to stand up and speak up. You are pointing out statements, that are all right here for everyone to read.
Your statement re:the "ego" stopping one from admitting their mistake and honestly apologizing for that, is a large part of a wonderful book I just finished reading;"A New Earth", by Eckhart Tolle.
I encourage you to read this book. It accounts in great depth, regarding a person's "ego". It is exactly what you are referring to here.
Another important point to be made here, is that being honest, as you are being, is the most important part of respectful parenting. Obviously, we can't hope for our children to become honest persons, if we ourselves do not set the example first.
If nothing else, be extremely proud that you, herein this thread, are SPEAKING HONESTLY.
Quote;
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don�t matter and those who matter don�t mind.�
� Theodor Seuss Geisel (Dr. Seuss)
C.C.
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 5:21:24 PM
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Dragonfly, you're right. My original post was convoluted, with the question about how to write the reports coming at the very end, after some admittedly fear-based statements. I apologize for wasting people's time with my lack of clarity. I should have done some thinking/journaling on my own, figured out the fear of gaming (in light of DD's history and current behaviors in RL) on my own, and then posted one BRIEF question, clearly stated, rather than two rambling, convoluted questions. Thank you for pointing this out to me.
So, I should have said what I needed to say in a better way, and I apologize for not doing so. That said, the question of how to post better is an important one, if one of the things we are about is respect. So, the topic has come up before, and so it bores you.
But, so what? Going back to the kids, and how we treat them:
One of my kids, the one who does go to public school, is not a neurotypical kid. In the old parlance, he would be described as "educably mentally retarded," in case I'm not being clear when I say "not neurotypical." Like the DD I've been asking about, he was abandoned by his birth family, grew up in an orphanage, faced unspeakable horrors there... in short, he's a complicated person. (Well, aren't we all! But this DS is REALLY, REALLY complicated.)
But again, I'm being too long-winded. The point is: he learns through repetition. Lots and lots and LOTS of repetition. We have the same conversations over and over and OVER again. I could choose to let it drive me crazy. I choose not to. I choose to feel honored that he is one of the people to whom he will speak. (He is selectively mute.) I owe him that level of patience, because I chose to parent him.
Likewise, don't the seasoned folks here owe it to the newbies to answer questions, even if they've been asked before? And to answer kindly, and with respect? Again, to go back to our kids, if they want information from us and haven't phrased their questions well, do we lecture them, in order to get them to challenge their assumptions and learn to think in a new way? Is that REALLY the best way to foster learning? Questioning, to foster dialogue (i.e., Socratic method) is one thing. Lecturing is another.
I happen to believe that learning happens in a loving, supportive atmosphere. Fear inhibits learning. Should newbies be afraid to express their fears, for fear of, well, I'm trying to think of a less loaded way of putting it, and I just can't so I'm going to say it in a way that is admittedly not the best... in fear of being "pounced on" and lectured?
And really, I AM sorry for the loaded language; DD played Runescape until 5:00 a.m. I am a light sleeper and could hear her computer chair and the clacking of the keyboard, so I'm TIRED. I'd be able to phrase it better if I were rested.
But if newbies who are wrestling with their fears cannot express those fears here without having those fears turned into a lecture, then some newbies are going to be turned off/scared away, just as we will turn off/scare away our kids if we lecture them. I mean, yeah, we're all adults here, and we certainly should search the archives, but there is SO MUCH info here that can we really be faulted for not getting it all, right away? Do we deserve to be lectured? Does ANYBODY?
Really and truly, I do believe in respectful communications. Because I did not communicate well, I apologize. Sincerely, I'm not looking to be a "winner" in a verbal sparring match and don't want anybody else to "lose." I really do believe that when everybody really "gets" what the other parties are saying, real communication happens and everybody wins. So, the topic of "how to say it respectfully" really is a crucial one.
Okay, I will put my hackles down and stop beating a dead horse, to mix metaphors. I'll wrestle my fears on my own and figure out, on my own, how to write those quarterly reports.
I LOVE Sandra's website but don't like how she gives advice, so I'll stop asking for advice here. And yeah, that IS my wounded inner child talking. But one last time, aren't we supposed to be all about treating children with respect?
Okay, enough, enough, enough! I'm sorry that I asked, and sorry that I asked "badly." Pithy I am not. I guess, all in all, I'm disappointed that this is not the supportive community I was hoping to find.
And with that, I exit, stage left. |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 21 2008 : 9:36:53 PM
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Likewise, don't the seasoned folks here owe it to the newbies to answer questions, even if they've been asked before?
We do answer newbie questions all the time, with patience, caring, and a genuine desire to help. But I don't know that we owe anything to anybody. We're here because we like helping newbies and each other and spreading the word about unschooling.
So, the topic has come up before, and so it bores you.
Now I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. What bores me is having an interesting discussion, which this was, derailed by ultimately pointless discussions about posting styles. Sandra posts the way she posts. I post the way I post. You post the way you post. Every person reading here is free to skip the posts of people who bother them (or their inner child ;->). Why stop posting or reading here because you don't want to hear one voice of many? Our posts are clearly labeled with their authors. Read the ones you want, skip the others. To exit stage left seems self-defeating.
Also for the record, I have no problem with someone doing a brain dump and then realizing from responses what her actual concern is. I do that all the time. What I had a problem with was your criticizing people who responded to what you showed us. Maybe in a few days, when the smoke clears so to speak, you can come back here and see how all the responses were responses to that. Then maybe they won't seem condescending or lecture-like at all.
I'm sorry you felt pounced on, truly. But you also received a lot of support and ideas. Sandra pushed some buttons obviously. So what? To focus only on the emotional flareup you experienced after reading her post is also self-defeating.
I'll wrestle my fears on my own and figure out, on my own, how to write those quarterly reports.
There is good stuff in this thread, stuff you can use in your reports. And more could come now that your need is clear. This board isn't terribly active, so some people don't check it very often. Give it a few days.
I guess, all in all, I'm disappointed that this is not the supportive community I was hoping to find.
It's here if you want it. Maybe it's not the type of support you were hoping to find. That's possible. But this *is* a wonderful and supportive community that has changed my life.
df
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dezigna
USA
131 Posts |
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jfetteroll
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2008 : 05:04:48 AM
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****The burden of being able to homeschool shouldn't be placed on the child's shoulders. That's mom's responsibility. Yes, it makes it tough! But our kids aren't responsible for our choices.****
**Yes it is! It is their responsibility to learn, and participate! Just like anything in life...**
It can be that way. That's the conventional way of viewing families.
Here on this list we help families put relationships first.
That statement has created a picture in your mind of what I mean and I can assure you it's a false image. Which is why we suggest people read for a couple of weeks before jumping in with false impressions of what we're talking about.
Many families run smoothly without doing what we suggest here. The parents assume the techniques they're using are the cause. Why wouldn't they? The problem is that when the parents try to help someone else have a smooth running family either they can't explain what they do or what they do works because of the personalities in the family and can't be translated to some other family.
If you're happy with how your family runs then what we say about changing to build relationships won't make any sense to you. Why would it? If something is working, why change?
We're here to help people whose families aren't running smoothly who do want to change. What we say *can* work for them. If what we say isn't useful to you, then let it go to allow it to help someone else.
**In our house this is a family choice, so therefore the family abides by our decisions and the consequences.**
And in mine (and in the homes of others here I've met), there is no abiding and no imposed consequences. We're creating an atmosphere to nurture everyone's growth.
Again, that doesn't create a clear picture of what I'm talking about. If it were easy, we could put up a FAQ and wouldn't need boards and lists. But since it's not I've been around for 12 years now helping people live more peaceful lives with their families, patiently explaining the same things over and over to new folks. Some like the style and stick around and have more peaceful families. Some don't and go find something that suits their learning style better.
**As far as this site offering help...not support I find frustrating. We are all trying to encourage our children and sometimes we need an outside source to offer insight, thoughts, comments, etc...I see this as support. If these types of responses are common then I don't see the benefit of this whole posting system.**
But other people do. Just as some kids prefer to watch to learn and some kids prefer to do to learn, some people want to work out their problems while being supported by others and some people want information and explanations of how they can change to get where they want. (And those types of learners do see what we do as support; it's supporting the need they have.)
Different approaches for different people. If *no one* needed what we offered, the message board would be empty. But it's not. It does serve the audience it's intended to reach. If it's not your style, that's okay. That's why it's great to have choice. A little more searching you'll find the style of information or support that's right for you.
Joyce
Rejoycing - Joyce on Unschooling and Peaceful Parenting
Dragon Writing Prompts for speculative fiction writers
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jfetteroll
USA
213 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2008 : 10:44:56 AM
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** Likewise, don't the seasoned folks here owe it to the newbies to answer questions, even if they've been asked before? And to answer kindly, and with respect? **
I've been worrying (like a dog) at variations of this question for 12 years. There *has* to be a way to explain it!
Setting aside the politeness question for a bit, first I think people come to forums and lists with the expectation that they're a service. And, as in real life, we expect those services to meet our needs. They're there to help us (usually funded by taxes or private donations or a company).
If we go to an information booth we expect information. We don't expect people to say "Here, read the FAQ," or "I only answer questions that interest me." ;-)
But this isn't a service and it's important to understand the difference! It's a *forum* the owners provide for the type of information the owners would like to present in the way they want to present it. It's not a service.
Or think of it as a gift. Some people will see the gift of this information as just the thing they want. Those are the people the forum is meant for. Others won't see the point. The gift isn't meant for them.
** Again, to go back to our kids, if they want information from us and haven't phrased their questions well, do we lecture them, in order to get them to challenge their assumptions and learn to think in a new way? Is that REALLY the best way to foster learning? **
We're not here to give the gift of learning about unschooling to everyone. The owners and writers are here to give -- as a gift! -- the way we naturally explain things to others who like that approach.
In unschooling we adapt our approach to our kids. Some kids might like us to strew books. Some kids might like us to strew movies. Some kids might like a conversation. As unschoolers we've chosen to provide what the child's needs.
The owners of the forum aren't unschooling whoever drops by. I know, it seems a bizarre concept not to unschool unschooling information! But when you look at how someone could "unschool" answers to unschooling questions, it looks a lot harder than it seems.
First the owners would have to want to provide information in the way anyone who drops by wants it. (It's just a matter of "Is this they way I want to spend my free time and money?" No matter how nice it would be to offer a place to everyone, not everyone would be interested in spending their time doing it.)
Second they would need to draw writers who want to roll out of bed, choose to take time from their families, choose to take time from their meager personal time, and answer people's questions for free. For no other reason than they love it.
What I've seen happen over the years is that the hand holding type forums die off. Not because they aren't a good idea, but because after a while holding people's hands does not get you fired up out of bed to listen to people who want to spill their lives and want someone else to sympathize.
To keep a forum going needs passion. The writers here who've been answering questions for years are *passionate* about this style of helping people understand unschooling. There are hundreds of people who love this style of being helped. And we love helping them! It's what's gotten me up at 4:30 every morning for the past 12 years :-)
But if people come and say "No, you need to stop writing the way you naturally write and write what I need to hear," what is in there to get me out of bed? I'm offering a gift of my time and they're turning their nose up at it and dictating what kind of gift I should give them.
The forum owners are giving the gift of a place for the type of help and writing they like and that helped them. The writers give the gift of their time.
** But if newbies who are wrestling with their fears cannot express those fears here without having those fears turned into a lecture, then some newbies are going to be turned off/scared away, just as we will turn off/scare away our kids if we lecture them. **
Is it clear that we aren't providing a service for any newbie that happens by? Because we aren't, that's why we suggest that people read for two weeks to get a feel for the style of gift we're offering here.
** Really and truly, I do believe in respectful communications. **
First, you're assuming that you've gotten deliberately disrespectful answers. And I'm sure you can pull things out and say "See! Disrespectful!" But since I know Sandra, have heard her voice, I can hear her saying what she wrote in a different tone than what you did. *You* supplied the tone. *She* didn't. Written words don't come with a tone. That's why one of the forum suggestions is to hear the voice of a friend. If you can't not hear disrespect, it's useful to the forum to just skip that person's posts.
** So, the topic of "how to say it respectfully" really is a crucial one. **
This is a choice we each make in how we will respond to someone. We don't automatically get the right to turn it around and decide someone else needs to meet our standards of how to respond.
Take this as a general universal question, not directed specifically at you in this instance: Where does the idea come from that a stranger who is taking time from their life to help owes someone else an answer that comes in a particular fashion? Where in our lives do we get to dictate to someone who is trying to help us, that they need to change how they're helping?
If someone is providing a service, we often have a right to demand that the service serve us! But this isn't a service. It's a gift. It's people choosing to take time from their lives to give the gift of their words to someone else. Is it polite to say "I don't like your gift. Start giving gifts differently, more the way I like them, more the way I think others need them."
If no one liked our gifts the forum would shut down! There are people who do like the gifts they find here. Others find other places that are offering gifts they like better.
Joyce
Rejoycing - Joyce on Unschooling and Peaceful Parenting
Dragon Writing Prompts for speculative fiction writers
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2008 : 5:18:14 PM
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Joyce~
My sincere THANKS for giving your time to explain this in a way that makes a great deal of sense to me. Truly, THANK YOU.
My comment about respectful communication was meant to explain that although *I* wasn't expressing myself as respectfully as I would have liked to, I DO believe in being respectful in communications; I'm really NOT interested in verbal sparring or "looking good" or making somebody else "look bad." I was TRYING to apologize for not being as respectful as I would have liked to have been in my communications. It was a comment directed back at myself, part of my attempted apology.
20/20 hindsight: I should have responded *personally* to Sandra to express my feelings about her post. I AM sorry I didn't do that. I am apologizing publicly to Sandra for not doing that. And lesson learned.
If I may make one last point to follow upon the two related (and paraphrased) statements that "people post how they post; take it or leave it" and "people don't have to make other people feel good with what they say; their spending their valuable time and they can express themselves however they like" ???
True. Yes. Point taken. I stand corrected. But...
...if one person tells me, "when you do X, you come across as Y..." then I will probably not pay too much heed to it (depending, to some extent, upon who is making that statement), and just talk it up to the OTHER person's idiosyncratic perceptions. But if TWO people tell me the same thing, I'll probably give it some more thought. And if TEN people all tell me the same thing, I will DEFINITELY think it over. I may NOT decide to change; I may decide that I'm just fine the way I am, thank-you-very-much, and other people can either like it or lump it. Or, I may think, "I'd never thought about it in that way, and I DON'T want to come across like that; I'm glad those folks brought it to my attention."
So, in being honest about my hurt feelings, my intention was to point out that this is how it sounded to me. Because I do care to know how I sound to other people, and so I assumed that other people also want this sort of feedback. Yeah, I know the old saying about assumptions... Anyhow, I was honest about how I felt, but wrong for not expressing that privately, and I've been humbled as you all, in turn, have shown me how *I* came across. And I have learned. So, voila! It's all good... I hope! :-) |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2008 : 8:05:14 PM
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if one person tells me, "when you do X, you come across as Y..." (snip) And if TEN people all tell me the same thing...
I understand your point. But suppose you had 100 people who told you that X really helped them. Wouldn't that tend to outweigh the ten? That is Sandra's situation (except that the 100 might have extra zeroes tacked on, for all I know).
Some of us need shakabuku (a swift, spiritual kick to the head that alters your reality forever, according to Grosse Pointe Blank). Some of us need it regularly. :-)
df |
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Sandra Dodd
USA
1419 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2008 : 04:36:30 AM
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-=-Likewise, don't the seasoned folks here owe it to the newbies to answer questions, even if they've been asked before?-=-
The seasoned folks owe newbies nothing whatsoever. The seasoned folk come here over and over, voluntarily, generously, out of their desire to make other *children's* lives better, not to infantilize the parents.
-=-Why can't you show me the same respect you would show a child, I wonder? -=-
Because you are not a child.
-=-But one last time, aren't we supposed to be all about treating children with respect?-=-
We're trying to help you treat your children with respect, and you lash out at us. All we know is what you told us, and it didn't sound very respectful.
-=-I should have responded *personally* to Sandra to express my feelings about her post-=-
No. I don't want private attacks or arguments or any such thing. If I speak at a cityhall discussion and someone doesn't like what I said, they can try to get the podium or they can write to the newspaper, but they may NOT legally or morally follow me home and harangue me in the dark, in private. If I donate food to a Thanksgiving food drive and someone gets it and doesn't like that free food, I don't want a letter saying "pork and beans SUCK," or "How insulting that you donated ham when some people are vegetarian or Jewish."
-=-And you KNEW I meant that when I said she is choosing to engage in murder, robbery, and pick-pocketing. Clearly, I meant, "within the context of the game, to the exclusion of all the other things she could be doing in the game." You CHOSE to misinterpret my words, and to get "almost" mad at me, which sure feels like you are REALLY mad at me and shaming me publicly... another thing you wouldn't do to a child.-=-
I know what you said.
I don't think you know what you said. She is sitting playing a game. She has not killed anyone or robbed anyone or stolen from anyone in that game.
If you can't tell the difference, that's a very serious perceptual problem and you should breathe deeply and be the adult who can tell reality from fantasy at your house.
Your level of frustration and fury won't do you or your child any good at all, and I'm sorry to tell you they won't do me or my children any harm.
Forget about me. Pay attention to your children. Pay gentle, generous, calm, extended attention to your children.
-=-And rather than answering, you just send me back to links I've already read, which have to do with a RANGE of activities that gamers pursue, which is NOT how my daughter is playing.-=-
Especially as your first statement was "I have read Sandra's article about gaming already," I asked you to go back and check again. I don't have an article about gaming. I have a page of links to articles including things like why violent play is important and empowering, and what can be learned from gaming in general. Some of these articles are recent and scientific. Some are testimonials by parents who used to limit and are thrilled with the results of not limiting anymore. It is neither an article by me nor something about the range of activities that gamers pursue.
When you want to learn more about gaming, there are very many links here: /videogames
I wrote little to none of that, and it would take you many hours to read it all, if you followed the links.
Once in a rant about me someone claimed to have already read my whole website.
No one has read my whole website.
-=-Oh, and I HAVE talked to local folks. They just lie on the quarterly reports. -=-
I don't believe that every unschooling resident of New York State lies on their quarterly reports.
-=-it must be great to live in a state where reporting in to the school district quarterly and taking annual tests is NOT required, but unfortunately we DON'T live in such a state. -=-
If you don't think you can unschool, then you can't.
If you want to decide that the state prevents you from doing what other unschoolers do, go ahead and take that cop-out.
If you want to calm down and chill out and learn more about unschooling, people will still be here. They'll give you help even though they don't owe it to you and you haven't earned it and you couldn't possibly pay what it will be worth in the longrun if you accept it and incorporate it into your life. But there will be people here on this forum, which other unschoolers pay for and maintain, who will help you for free.
-=-Schools can fail, or opt certain kids out of testing, but parents can't.-=-
You can find options if you want to.
/tests
/haveto (you use "have to" and "had to" quite a bit in your writing)
You might find that you have the option to have the tests administered orally because of special needs. That's an option in New Mexico, and surely New York is forward and advanced. NY being the home of perpetual lawsuits, others have undoubtedly paved the way for you to find alternatives.
-=-Respectful behavior comes from being respected. Children learn how to respect others by being respected. We become people they want to act respectful towards by being respectful of them.-=-
Joyce wrote that.
I've seen Joyce with her daughter. They're mutually very respectful, but Joyce started it.
/respect
The writing you chose to post in this form was not very respectful toward your daughter. You shamed her in public (though behind her back, which I suppose is kinder).
We're trying (lots of us, though I'm the only one you freaked out about it seems) to give you all kinds of suggestions of ways to be more respectful of your daughter. I think if people were telling you to limit her, stop her, get her to study, THEN you'd be happy and grateful.
-=-If one of our children asks for help, do we just say, "Go look it up yourself!"-=-
/aradicalthought
That's one of the first things I ever wrote about unschooling, many years ago.
The answers to some of the very basic unschooling questions, the kind you're asking, have been written from scratch dozens or hundreds of times. Finally things evolved to the point that people like Joyce and Robyn and Deb and Pam and others could have their best writing preserved for future reference, easily accessible, so they didn't have to write it over and over and over and over. It seems you're complaining that we don't want to write it all over again from scratch for you.
-=-I don't need my perceptions challenged. I need my questions answered. -=-
Your questions reveal jumbled perceptions.
-=-In writing, for example, I am supposed to be able to say that she writes "legibly, right to left, top to bottom" none of which I can gauge when she is typing all the time. Typing is always legible, and it forces you to write right to left and top to bottom.-=-
Writing is many things. You're talking about penmanship. That's fine, talking about penmanship, but it will help if you consider that typing IS writing.
/writing
-=- Everybody (excepting two people who posted to agree that Sandra was less than kind) says I need an attitude adjustment.
Um, no. I need help.-=-
A change of attitude would help nineteen ways from Sunday. The two who posted to agree I was less than kind didn't help you a bit, did they? (Were there two? I thought there was one.)
-=-Honestly: "...it would be better for your whole family if you learn enough more about unschooling that you can honestly describe the huge amount of learning that you can't yet see." Is there REALLY a way to see this a a gentle, kind, caring response?-=-
If you want to get past the point that tests and reporting scare the bejeezus out of you, yes.
If you want someone to hold your hand and do your reporting for you, no, it doesn't help.
What if you sign up with http://clonlara.org ? That would be a way for someone else to do the reporting, quite legally, and you could pay someone to calm you down and help you out. Free help isn't making you happy.
-=-I understand your point. But suppose you had 100 people who told you that X really helped them. Wouldn't that tend to outweigh the ten? That is Sandra's situation-=-
/feedback
I have lots on paper, and lots and lots in a file I can't afford to print out, that I started collecting when there was a discussion on *Prodigy, before AOL was created.
I have very happy and whole offspring who are 16, 19 and 21.
Sandra Dodd
/unschooling
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2008 : 2:37:15 PM
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-=-Why can't you show me the same respect you would show a child, I wonder? -=-
=Because you are not a child.=
So, we treat children with respect, and if a child objects to our "tone," then we'll try to change it, but adults do not deserve/are not owed/will not receive that same level of respect? To speak kindly and patiently to an adult is to "infantilize" that adult? Have I understood that correctly?
=Writing is many things. You're talking about penmanship. That's fine, talking about penmanship, but it will help if you consider that typing IS writing.=
I know that typing is writing. Many things are writing. But the state has certain skills, under certain rubrics, that they want to see happening by a certain age. I don't like the state's stance. I don't agree with it. I do believe my kids will learn what they want and need to learn when they want and need to learn it. Penmanship is just one example of one of those things that the state wants to hear DD is doing NOW. I was giving you an example of how challenging it is to let DD do what she most wants to do while still telling the state that she is doing X, Y, and Z... and without lying.
=The writing you chose to post in this form was not very respectful toward your daughter. You shamed her in public (though behind her back, which I suppose is kinder).=
I NEVER said I was ASHAMED of my daughter. I spoke of being WORRIED for her, and wondering how I can allow her to pursue her passion, without lying on the reports and without the state forcing me to send her to public school. I do NOT want people to tell me that I should be limiting her gaming, nor that gaming is bad, nor any such thing. Please don't put words in my mouth. I understand that "virtual violence" can be very cathartic; I regularly face scathing looks from other parents b/c my kids bring their light sabers to the playground and act out Star Wars fantasies. Inevitably, a LONG line of kids forms near where my kids are playing, all of them hoping to ask, out of earshot of their parents, "Can I have a turn playing with that? My parents won't let me play with toy weapons."
=She has not killed anyone or robbed anyone or stolen from anyone in that game.
If you can't tell the difference, that's a very serious perceptual problem and you should breathe deeply and be the adult who can tell reality from fantasy at your house.=
You don't know what the reality is in our house. I told you about DD's RL theft and physical violence b/c you ASKED about it, assuming that she was not engaged in it. I thought perhaps that if you understood her history and her current ways of dealing with her feelings, you would understand better why the focus on fantasy violence had me worried. None of the links on the gaming page talk about the effects of virtual violence on the mind of a person who has undergone the sorts of trauma that lead to Reactive Attachment Disorder, do they? I AM choosing to trust that she is going to be okay, but unless you have also raised a child who is struggling with Reactive Attachment Disorder, you know not whereof you speak when you presume to tell me that I have serious perceptual issues and just need to breathe deep. You do not know the level of real life violence DD inflicts upon family members; you do not know how much real life theft is occurring. So please don't tell me I have a serious problem with my perceptions or that I can't distinguish play violence from actual violence.
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2008 : 3:04:44 PM
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| And now this: I let DD know that we have guests coming over to the house in a little while, and she looked up from her game, and the intense concentration on her face melted into an expression of excitement, and then she asked me, "What level are they?" She and I locked eyes and burst out laughing, both of us laughing until our stomachs ached. And then I answered the question she had meant to ask. "Annette, Rick, Sadie, Andrew, and Ben..." I told her. And then chose to log off to go clean her room, not because I told her to--I wouldn't do that; it's HER room--but because she has some items she'd like to store out of reach of toddlers. I didn't feel the need to point out to her that her intense focus on the game had resulted in a slip of the tongue that sounded like she was confusing the game world with the real world. She already knew. That's why we could both find humor there. Do you still think I don't "get it?" |
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Sandra Dodd
USA
1419 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 01:45:13 AM
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-=-Do you still think I don't "get it?"-=-
Does it matter what I think?
Does it matter what anyone here thinks about whether you "get it"?
Sandra Dodd
/unschooling
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Edited by - Sandra Dodd on Feb 24 2008 01:46:04 AM |
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 11:14:42 AM
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No, it doesn't matter what you think. What matters is that what you think is flat-out WRONG.
=I think if people were telling you to limit her, stop her, get her to study, THEN you'd be happy and grateful.-
But you can't see or won't admit to yourself that you are misreading me. So, you are blocking yourself off from learning something about your world view, and how it could use an adjustment, in favor of continuing to twist my words and even put words into my mouth.
You say that I am ashamed of my daughter, which I'm not, or that I shamed her publicly, which I didn't.
Strangely, you seem to think I want to hurt you or your family (????) which just comes COMPLETELY out of left field. ("I'm sorry to tell you they won't do me or my children any harm.")
You call me names ("infantile") and question how many people support my POV that you are being really hypocritical to espouse respect towards children while you disrespect adults.
You dance around the question of why it is okay to disrespect adults, refusing to answer it in favor of further word twisting and false accusations. (Why on earth would I want to hurt your family? That statement of yours was just REALLY beyond the pale!)
All the while, here is the universe once again bringing you the message that to disrespect many people while espousing respect for children is just plain hypocritical; it undermines all your other hard work. All this great writing about respecting people for who they are and letting them be who they are and taking in joy in who they are is coming from a human being who isn't walking her talk. But I won't go over it all again, because you just don't get it.
Yes, for the record, TWO people did support my assertion that you were being disrespectful in your replies. That's on the board. Countless more privately to my e-mail. So you've got to figure that for everybody who stands up to your bullying publicly, there are many others who are quietly noticing but not pointing it out to you. It adds up!
Not that you care.
Does it matter what you think? No. But I was hoping for some mutual understanding to occur. I guess I am a slow learner, but now I see that mutual understanding and respect is not going to happen. We all have our blind spots.
So, you are right. I will stop wasting my time in a futile effort to help YOU to see your own hypocrisy, your own biases, and how PROFOUNDLY they color how you read others' posts, and turn my attention back to something much more positive, my four lovely children, all of whom have been receiving my thoughtful, respectful, and loving attention for as long as they have been in the family.
I'm GLAD that your kids have had and continue to have wonderful, joy-filled lives. And I'm happy to report that mine are also living wonder-filled and joyful lives. Yes, the adopted ones come with extra needs, because they missed out on years of attachment parenting, so they are still learning to trust in our unconditional love and support. But they DO have that unconditional love and support and respect, and they are coming more and more to understand that.
It is my great joy and privilege to watch them (all of them) bloom into becoming more and more of who they really are. So I will turn back to that.
Thank you for taking the time to show so much of your true self to me. FWIW, I wish you well. |
Unschooling Information - Newbie/Need Help (X-Posted to TV/Video)
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MommySica
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 12:11:37 PM
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Why is it when 'others' have a different view on unschooling that we must really analyze the way we think and ask ourselves why this and why that? I have read numerous posts in this board that are supposed to encourage this 'different' life choice, but all they really support is a certain version of unschooling. Even I admit that I was a little harsh about my 'view'. Thanks to CC2Angels for point that out. It's a huge leap from structured school to no structure at all. It's a learning curve that I am still learning, and from what I can tell, I can expect to continue learning for the rest of my life! I'm good with that...now that I know it will result with the best adventure for my children and family. Every family is different, rules, no rules, structure, no structure, testing, no testing...I think where I wandered off the path was forgetting what Lifesgr8 real question was...so here is my attempt at an answer for you lifeisgr8...look at the requirements that must be met...and close your eyes and think outside the box...can you apply any of her experiences to what she 'must' learn? Before Runescape became her 'obsession'? What about family visits, relationships etc...if you can't find a way to make her computer use part of her require 'curriculum' then use the time that has passed as a 'break'? and then start again when runescape wears out it fun...just an idea...
Mommysica |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 3:43:09 PM
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Why is it when 'others' have a different view on unschooling that we must really analyze the way we think and ask ourselves why this and why that?
There's no "must." But the reason is that words are tied to thoughts are tied to beliefs are *just possibly* tied to unconscious learning and habits that are not helpful in an unschooling relationship. When experienced unschoolers question the words used in a post, it's not "Thou must speaketh a certain way," it's "Hey, have you considered what those thoughts and words might mean?" and "What I have found is that when I stopped using words like that, I stopped having thoughts like that, and it's led to a better relationship with my child. An unimaginably better relationship."
I wish I could think of an example unrelated to unschooling that would make this point in stunning fashion. Then I could pull it up whenever this question of "Why do our words matter?" gets asked. And "Oh, you know what I meant." Maybe we do, maybe we don't. Maybe your kids do, maybe they don't.
But, oh, what if they don't? Think about that. For example, what if a kid hears you tell someone on the phone that she spent her day "doing nothing." Now, maybe you're talking to an unschooling parent who knows exactly how *rich* and full of activity "doing nothing" can be, and what you really mean by that phrase is apparent to her and to you.
But all the kid hears is "doing nothing." Suddenly all that richness and all those activities have NO VALUE.
What we try to encourage on this board and in the other unschooling forums is not Nazi uniformity but the careful use of words. They have power, as do our tones of voice, our facial expressions, our gestures and postures. We don't comment on those things because we can't see them, but if I spent a little time with a family and noticed the mom rolling her eyes all the time at things her kids said as she shared with me some fears about her child, I would comment on that, too!
...and from what I can tell, I can expect to continue learning for the rest of my life!
YES! And from what I can tell, I can expect to continue learning things that, as of this moment, I don't know I will need to know.
Is it so hard to imagine that one of the things a newbie on this board needs to learn is new way of thinking and speaking? For me, it's so hard to imagine that she won't!
df |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 3:59:11 PM
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If the orphanage life that she was living was genuinely dangerous and scary because of the presence of thieves and weapons, if she was victimized and disempowered by that experience, perhaps this fantasy role play, of being very powerful and being able to survive the virtual (in-game) consequences in complete physical and hopefully emotional (if you can stop any judging) safety is absolutely crucial to her healing. Better she act out her search for empowerment and possibly revenge in this virtual world than in real life.
Perhaps her life in the orphanage was so circumscribed and her time so controlled, including being forced to engage in group activities at the expense of her private meditations, that just being allowed to opt out of a family activity is like a big dose of freedom and blissful trust.
Robyn said that, and it's profound, and I'm afraid it got lost in the scuffle -- er, I mean, shuffle. |
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 4:41:03 PM
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| Yes, that was a very good point. Thank you, Robyn, and thank you Dragonfly, for reminding me of it. It's very true. |
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 9:31:31 PM
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Mommy Sica wrote: "look at the requirements that must be met...and close your eyes and think outside the box...can you apply any of her experiences to what she 'must' learn? Before Runescape became her 'obsession'? What about family visits, relationships etc...if you can't find a way to make her computer use part of her require 'curriculum' then use the time that has passed as a 'break'? and then start again when runescape wears out it fun...just an idea..."
A good idea; thank you!
Shakabuku finally hit tonight. I was thinking about why unlimited gaming was bothering me, when unlimited TV doesn't scare me, nor does playing at violent play. And I mean REALLY playing at it, in the real world, dressed up in costumes, chasing each other round the house and yard with light sabers or swords or toy guns... or playing laser tag. Likewise, almost everybody in our immediate family (including this DD) loves role playing games, and especially D & D. (DD likes to play a half-Orc and we count on her to smite our enemies on our quests.) All of the aforementioned is fun and worthwhile; these are just a few of the ways all of us enjoy spending our time together. Why then, was I totally FREAKING over DDs deep immersion in a game that incorporated elements of all of the above (screen, playing, role playing, pretending at violence)? Why, why, why?
SHAKABUKU! DD is playing independently. I knew something was different, but I didn't correctly identify what had changed, and I flipped out. Something felt "wrong." Something had changed, and that change felt uncomfortable. But it's just that she is playing independently!
Re-reading Robyn's point about the power of play to heal emotional wounds, it HIT me: ever since the day DD came into my life, she's been relying on me to help her deal with all of the feelings that arise from her past experiences. Throughout our relationship, DD has behaved as if she were the same age as the relationship. (And that is fine... it is to be expected... it's nothing I'm ashamed of, just for the record ;-)
In other words, when we first met her, she was closed down, catatonic with grief--ever heard of "institutional autism"?--and so I treated her as I would an infant. I wore her constantly in a sling, except when I was bathing her, or hand feeding her, or sharing sleep with her. She was four years old, but she had never in her life been "babied." She hadn't been held and nurtured, she hadn't had her needs responded to quickly, calmly, consistently, and respectfully. She had been on her own from the get-go. After two years of that, she was ready to test us, just as a two-year old would test the world, except that DD tested the nth degree.
Of course she did! She had trusted adults, twice before, and had been abandoned by them, twice, and so what had she learned in her life? That adults will let you down. That relationships end. She assumed that the relationship was going to have to end, as all relationships in her life had, and she decided that THIS time, it was going to happen on HER terms. So she did her very best to behave in as an unlikeable manner as she could come up with. She raged, physically and verbally. And I held her through it and told her, over and over, "It's okay to be angry. It's okay to be sad. We love you. All the time. No matter what you are thinking or feeling or doing." We did a lot of talking about feelings that year, about how EVERY feeling is okay, about how there are no "bad" feelings, but that there are ways to express feelings that are okay, and ways that are not so okay. Encouraged her to hit pillows, or throw pillows, and etc., and to give her feelings labels and to give them VOICE. Encouraged her to recognize that she is not her feelings and she is not her behaviors. She was six, our relationship was two years old, and we were learning together as I had learned with my other kids when they were two years old.
Now she is seven, our relationship is three years old, and I'm expecting for her to be learning *as if* she were three years old. But NO! Suddenly, she KNOWS she has my attention, whenever she wants/needs it. She KNOWS she has our love, no matter what. She has a lot more language now to express her feelings, and thoughts, and opinions, so a lot less frustration around the issue of having something to say but not being able to say it. Yeah, there are times when her temper gets the better of her (she must get that hot temper from me ;-), but more and more, she can be mad or sad without being overwhelmed and without taking it out on anybody. AND...
SHE NO LONGER NEEDS MY CONSTANT ATTENTION! Suddenly, our relationship is three years old, but I have a child who has the self-confidence and emotional maturity level of a seven year old. So she is playing like a seven year old will play. THAT'S what's different. AND IT IS BEAUTIFUL, A CAUSE FOR REJOICING. She can go off and play on her own for great stretches of time, because she is confident that she is loved and cared for and respected; she doesn't have to test those propositions out any more. And I was edgy 'cause I was used to the special kind of closeness that parents and toddlers have, and then, seemingly overnight, she just didn't need that level of reassurance any longer. And what was making me so uncomfortable was MISSING her constant presence.
DUH! But also: Hurray! She is growing! She is healing!
In the meantime, since this whole, erm, discussion, began, she's starting to do lots more different activities within the world of Runescape, and occasionally choosing to do things other than Runescape. Because... back to writing those reports: It's NOT that I think Runescape is NOT "educational." It's NOT that I couldn't find a single thing coming out of the Runescape play that could be put into the reports. It's just that I was feeling that the way she was playing the game didn't give me A WHOLE LOT to put in my report, and around here, if the reports don't list a lot of "learner outcomes" then the school district get suspicious, and the powers that be start to pry, and that's just NOT good.
I just needed to TRUST, both that my daughter was okay and that the situation was okay.
My daughter is FINE. The situation is FINE.
So, now, pulling my head out of the, um, sand <g>, I DO see lots more learning (yes, in RUNESCAPE) that I can write up in educrates to please Those Who Must Be Appeased. Plus, DD is once again interested in being read to at bedtime, and at the moment, she happens to be interested in the _Little House on the Prairie_ series, which is SUCH a great choice. HER choice, in case it needs to be explicitly stated. These books are so RELEVANT to DDs life.
Remember how Laura always felt "naughty" because of the way she was acting? And in particular, how she had internalized her mother's/societies ideals about what it means to be feminine, and felt bad about herself b/c she wasn't meeting those ideals, while her "good" sister, Mary, always did? Well, so now there is the REAL learning, about how your worth as a human cannot be measured and described by how you behave, and about what it means to be feminine. DD took a lot of crapola back in the orphanage about how she "acted too much like a boy," because she is very active and because, get THIS, she likes to tell jokes!
Plus, lots of great stuff about how Laura's life differed from DDs and lots of great stuff about how differently parents treated children... a fact which DD is very conscious of and points out every time it comes up in the story. And then there is the stuff that the Superintendent will want to hear about: studying American history (mid 1800s pioneer living), studying literature (the theory that the books were actually written by Laura's daughter, Rose), comparing social mores across time and cross-culturally too (China/U.S.).
When our guests came over yesterday, DD chose to play with their toddler, who is very interested in fire trucks. DD and Andrew played with DDs collection of toy fire trucks and ambulance, and DD told her buddy all about her grandfather's job. (He's a firefighter/paramedic.) And then she went on to explain to him about "Emergency!" (anybody remember Johnny Gage and Roy DeSoto?) which is a show many of us are enjoying watching lately. So there is a lot MORE to put under social studies: community helpers, the history of the career of paramedic in America, etc. And there's science there: How do fires start? How can they be put out? And there's health: e.g.; why wearing a seat belt is a good idea. Also E.D.I.T.H. (Exit Drills in the Home). DD told Andrew about "stay low and go" and "stop, drop, and roll."
And then she played Monopoly with us today, so I can honestly say she's using her math skills (again, I'll put that into educational gobbledygook, 'cause that keeps the district off our backs. Of course, she was bartering in Runescape; that's math too. And OBVIOUSLY, I could go on! I HAVE gone on.
By the by, Dragonfly (Hey! I LIKE that!), I really HEARD and APPRECIATED this:
"...the reason is that words are tied to thoughts are tied to beliefs are *just possibly* tied to unconscious learning and habits that are not helpful in an unschooling relationship."
Thank you ALL again! DD can continue to play Runescape to her heart's content and I know I can write the report, and it's all WONDEFUL!
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Benjamin Gilbert
90 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2008 : 10:30:52 PM
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| Just to point out... In any MMORPG there is enough math to make a college student's head spin. It's far more complicated and advanced than monopoly. Even just figuring out how to build your character... Some of them are about as complicated as D&D, which you've pointed out you're familiar with, so imagine playing that solo, and you can see how much math is involved ;) |
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Sandra Dodd
USA
1419 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 02:44:48 AM
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-=-You call me names ("infantile") -=-
Heck of a misquote. Don't use quotations around a word that wasn't used.
I do NOT want to treat adults like children. That was my point. I didn't call anyone infantile.
I'm glad things are going better.
As to "Shakabuku," I heard of it for the first time in this discussion. I'm not saying it's not something that happens, I'm saying it's not a concept or term I've used.
As to whether I'm hypocritical, there are witnesses to my life--lots of them--people who've visited here, people my family has visited. I've hung out with lots of families at conferences. My kids have visited other families without me. I'm living out in the open and being honest. Attacks on me don't hurt me--that's the point I was trying to make. Accusations don't create truth.
Sandra Dodd
/unschooling
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 05:59:08 AM
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Benjamin Gilbert wrote: "Just to point out... In any MMORPG there is enough math to make a college student's head spin. It's far more complicated and advanced than monopoly. Even just figuring out how to build your character... Some of them are about as complicated as D&D, which you've pointed out you're familiar with, so imagine playing that solo, and you can see how much math is involved ;)"
Thank you for pointing that out, Benjamin. And at the risk of being accused of sounding negative or ungrateful again...
...in Runescape, character creation is a simple process of clicking through screens to choose one's physical appearance. Basically, it's like creating a Mii on the Wii. No math, no rolling dice and deciding whether you want your character to be physically strong, or intelligent, or charismatic, or what have you, given that one never rolls enough high numbers to be all of the aforementioned.
Two other short examples: bartering/purchasing. DD *could* "shop around" for the best deal on whatever it is she wants to purchase in the moment. But she doesn't. If she wants something, she'll buy it from the first willing seller she comes across, if she has enough gold pieces to do so. She doesn't think about budgeting or comparison shopping or whether the price the seller is asking is "fair." So, the potential is there for lots of learning, but it hasn't happened yet. Hence, I can't put it into my reports.
Last one: leveling. DD understands that taking the time to learn how to better ____________ (fill in the blank: shear a sheep, cook, fish... and on and on) will increase her "skill level" which, in turn, will allow her access to more kinds of things she can do and more parts of the world of Runescape that she can explore. But for right now, her main focus is on becoming a higher level fighter. Again, not a lot of math there that I can report--it's adding in the ones column, and the computer is doing it for her--but I do understand the potential is there for a lot of math learning in the future. And if she chooses to "go there" then I will put it in my report.
Monopoly, OTOH, allows me state on the report that she can do addition and subtraction into the millions place. (We're playing with the new version where all the denominations are larger than in classic Monopoly.) And again, there is social studies, because this version of Monopoly features properties from across the country (not limited to Atlantic City anymore) and DD was asking about them, sometimes with hilarious consequences.
"What's Wrigley Field?" she asked. And the other kids popped up and started dancing, no, WRIGGLING around the room, singing, "It's wriggly, it's wriggly, it's a wriggly field. It's a field where you go to wriggle." LOVE that answer! :-)
THANKS, though, for reminding me about the potential for a lot of math learning in MMORPGs.
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 06:49:33 AM
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Sandra said, "Attacks on me don't hurt me--that's the point I was trying to make. Accusations don't create truth."
Right, accusations don't create truth, e.g., your accusation that I was shaming my daughter behind her back does not make that true. However, accusations are words, and words, as we've been discussing, have the power to shape realities.
Likewise, verbal attacks are words, and clearly each of us has felt attacked by the other. But I have been trying to see how your words were meant not to attack me, but to attack old assumptions that would better be released. And I have admitted to my mistakes, and I have apologized, and I have told how I have learned from this experience (despite, rather than because of your approach to correcting me).
Have you, likewise, considered how my words were not meant to attack you, but rather to get you to think about the idea that "the medium is the message" and that you are the medium, and unschooling is the message, and why this idea is important? Because from the flood of e-mails to my inbox, there are a lot of people who feel that your tone is disrespectful, a lot of people who get really turned off by the disrespect. Now, maybe it's all "perception" and not "truth." But that brings us right back to the question of how perceptions affect reality.
I've asked you, flat-out, "Are you saying you don't respect adults? Because the tone of your reply feels very disrespectful." And your answer is, "I do NOT want to treat adults like children." Can you see how it is easy for a mind to fill in the blanks: "I do NOT extend respect to adults." Can you then see how the perception becomes a reality and the medium (disrespectful towards others) becomes the message: Unschooling isn't REALLY about respect after all. It's actually about oneupmanship. Do you/can you possibly see how that hinders the promotion of unschooling as a positive way to live?
That is not an attack. It's an invitation to consider, or reconsider this idea, that for better of for worse, you are an ambassador for unschooling, and ambassadors really need to be, well, diplomatic. Respectful.
You can say/think/feel/believe/insist that if anybody has a problem, it's anybody and everybody who's felt disrespected by you, and you can likewise say/think/believe/feel/insist that if we don't "get it" well, that's just too bad for our children, but there's nothing you can do about our perceptions. Except that there IS something you can do, if you really want to. Again, this is not an attack, but an invitation to ponder.
Shakabuku. Too bad you missed "Gross Pointe Blank." FUNNY flick! I love John Cusack. I choose not to watch him these days, though, as he's been appearing in a string of horror movies. Not my cup 'o tea. |
-=-You call me names ("infantile") -=-
=Heck of a misquote. Don't use quotations around a word that wasn't used.
I do NOT want to treat adults like children. That was my point. I didn't call anyone infantile.=
To quote an unschooling "guru": I know what you said. I do not think you know what you said.
You said, "The seasoned folks owe newbies nothing whatsoever. The seasoned folk come here over and over, voluntarily, generously, out of their desire to make other *children's* lives better, not to infantilize the parents."
The parent in question is me. So, yes, you DID call me infantile.
Why does it matter? Why do I care about your opinion of me, or my parenting?
I don't. But I do believe, yup, beating that dead horse, that respectful communication is important. You AGREE that words are important. You told me that my words were revealing jumbled perceptions.
Your words reveal a delight in debate and a need to be right and to be "better than."
You can tell me that THAT is just one more jumbled perception, and that it doesn't matter how many people agree with it, but, like it or not, people are going to confound your responses to them with the whole philosophy of unschooling. If your responses are snarky (or even if they are "only" perceived to be), then that DOES undermine all the good stuff you've written over the years. It turns people off. It's hard to for many of us to believe that you believe in respectful, joyful living when it seems that you are deriving joy from playing with people's words in a way that (whether intentionally or unintentionally) leaves people feeling that they have not been heard and not been respected.
I asked a sincere question:
"So, we treat children with respect, and if a child objects to our "tone," then we'll try to change it, but adults do not deserve/are not owed/will not receive that same level of respect? To speak kindly and patiently to an adult is to "infantilize" that adult? Have I understood that correctly?"
It was ignored in favor of telling me that you didn't say what you did say, and so on and so forth. Unless "I do NOT want to treat adults like children was the answer." If so, it is telling, and you should really go back and examine those words and the thought patterns and life choices they represent.
If "we all post how we post; just ignore the posts you don't want to read..." (forgot who gave that advice) is the answer, it fails to answer the question of how we treat each other, adult to adult, relates back to how we treat our children, and how we live our lives, and what we stand for, ultimately.
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Sandra Dodd
USA
1419 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 11:14:22 AM
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-=-If "we all post how we post; just ignore the posts you don't want to read..." (forgot who gave that advice) is the answer, it fails to answer the question of how we treat each other, adult to adult, relates back to how we treat our children, and how we live our lives, and what we stand for, ultimately.-=-
It's not politics. I'm not "standing for" anything. I am not an ambassador.
I collect unschooling information on a website. I come here and respond to posts sometimes. I write sometimes. Here are some pages that are new on my site:
https://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
-=-I've asked you, flat-out, "Are you saying you don't respect adults?-=-
The forum isn't about discussing me. I respect honest effort and good parenting more than I respect negativity. Negativity isn't good for unschooling, an unschooling is what I'm here to discuss. No sane person could answer that they respect all adults, or that they respect no adults. Please try to stick to the topic at hand, which is what can help with unschooling situations.
-=-Two other short examples: bartering/purchasing. DD *could* "shop around" for the best deal on whatever it is she wants to purchase in the moment. But she doesn't. If she wants something, she'll buy it from the first willing seller she comes across, if she has enough gold pieces to do so. She doesn't think about budgeting or comparison shopping or whether the price the seller is asking is "fair." So, the potential is there for lots of learning, but it hasn't happened yet. Hence, I can't put it into my reports.-=-
People learn by making errors. Years ago when Marty was showing me Neopets I wanted to put my points in the bank, and he was saying no, no, don't! and I clicked "enter." So I couldn't collect my interest. Ever since then I listen to Marty better even about the smallest things, because I learned he doesn't always put the most important information first, and he's often right, so I slowed down to let him advise me more. And I've been super-careful to collect my interest before depositing or withdrawing on Neopets.
What I learned about Marty was more important, but I learned things more far-reaching than about neopoints.
If at some point after a month or a year your daughter wishes she had more points/gold/whatever in the game, then she will make her own connections and plans and change her own behavior. Learning doesn't always happen suddenly, but the experience to decide when to spend points is still an exercise in comparisons of cost and practice in budgeting, if you need things to write.
Sandra Dodd
/unschooling
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Edited by - Sandra Dodd on Feb 25 2008 11:15:34 AM |
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dragonfly
USA
514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 2:07:23 PM
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Thank you ALL again! DD can continue to play Runescape to her heart's content and I know I can write the report, and it's all WONDEFUL!
This is awesome! Good on you. :-)
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lifeisgr8
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - Feb 25 2008 : 2:23:11 PM
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=People learn by making errors.=
Apparently, it's a primary learning modality for me personally! ;-)
"...an exercise in comparison of costs and practice in budgeting..." Yes! It is. And actually, she gets an allowance, so she's doing that both in the game and in RL. Has been doing it in RL for years, and it NEVER OCCURRED to me to put that down. That's ECONOMICS.
DUH! <---That's me smacking m'self on the forehead.
I really am NOT seeing all the learning that's going on. Too focused on crossing off an arbitrary list of learning outcomes to please the Superintendent so that he'll leave us alone to just let life happen and really enjoy it. Okay, I see that now, so I'm pitching it. I'm done with it. From now on, I look with new eyes.
So, let's see, they've been riding bikes and riding elevators and using a can opener, so I can write that up as experimentation in simple and complex machines. Bowling and gymnastics and sledding is experimentation in Newtonian physics. And lots of social studies, as I already described, and the learning that is happening in math and language arts and fine arts and music and health and electives are SO EASY to see, now that I am really looking. Ooh, YEAH! My kids can spend their days being who they are, and lovin' it, and I can enjoy them and the process.
And yes, I CAN write a looong report so full of educratese that the Superintendent will never suspect how happy we are to just be going about our lives. Yeah, he'll think I'm busy *teaching* my kids all the things the state says they need to know. What he doesn't know won't hurt my kids.
I *think* I finally "got it" now. Thank you for "holding my hand."
Right now, I feel like the Ed Gruberman of this list. (Anybody remember the song/comedy skit "Ti Kwan Leep?" Ed Gruberman was full of misperceptions. And he got his enlightenment from a "boot to the head."
Well, anyway. <<THANKS>> to everybody! |
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Newbie/Need Help (X-Posted to TV/Video)
