Belinda Aycrigg

Hi Everybody

I have been reading your wonderful posts for about 2 years now and appreciating them. I think you are very brave to have charted your own course and trusted your selves and your children..

My situation is I'm a grandma of 2 boys 6 and 3yrs.  My daughter was the first one to discover unschooling and inspire me with it. She started off unschooling. I was having the boys 2 days a week and learning about it and deschooling.
 Unfortunately my daughter gave up after about 6 months because she wasn't really coping with the overall situation.
Now I feel frustrated that for instance she is stressed around the food they are eating and sort of vacillating. Sometimes controlling it and sometimes being more relaxed. I know she is anxious because the 3yr old has quite serious decay and so she worries if he doesn't eat right he'll need an anesthetic to have dental work ( if he gets abscesses which is quite likely).

I suppose I don't really want to go into all the details here because they might detract from the main issue which is as a grandparent what is the best way to help? Because in one sense maybe I should be concerned with unschooling my daughter -not worrying so much about my grandsons if you know what I mean.  And I think that now I'm the one who's more into unschooling and that might put my daughter off if it doesn't come from her and is not her own inspiration.

Any words of wisdom?

Belinda



Joyce Fetteroll

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Belinda Aycrigg wrote:
>
> Unfortunately my daughter gave up after about 6 months
> because she wasn't really coping with the overall situation.

I think that's not uncommon without a regular tie to unschooling thoughts. The old approaches are comfortable and familiar which gives them a right feeling.

I have a page about keeping teeth cleaner.
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/#!cleaner-teeth/cvhq

The issue with the teeth is probably genetic. Sticky foods that don't dissolve -- like raisins -- can cause decay but that's easily solved by eating other foods that wash them away like hard cheeses. That's just one of the many ideas gathered on that page.

I suspect what's causing the most problems is that she lacks confidence in any approach. She keeps controlling food because it's what everyone does. But she doesn't feel right about it and lacks confidence that it will work.

Joyce

Belinda Aycrigg

Thanks for your helpful reply Joyce.
The teeth thing seems to be from a mineral deficiency during pregnancy. I realised that she has been struggling with Samba the 3 year old with his eating for months and all he really wants to eat are sweets.I said to her if she'd just even experimented for a month with giving him total freedom then things might be very different now. She got the point but whether she'll take my advice or not I can't say. That's the challenge being a grandparent .... you have all the attachment and love for your grandchildren but not the ultimate say. That's why I was wondering if anyone had any insight in how I could best support my daughter.

I think you were spot on Joyce about not having a regular tie to unschooling ideas. Without it its hard to escape the old paradigms . At the same time after you know about unschooling you can never be satisfied with the old approaches. And yes thus she lacks confidence that the controlling method will work and so goes back and forth. Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

Belinda



On Monday, 31 August 2015 12:20 AM, "Joyce Fetteroll jfetteroll@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Belinda Aycrigg wrote:
>
> Unfortunately my daughter gave up after about 6 months
> because she wasn't really coping with the overall situation.

I think that's not uncommon without a regular tie to unschooling thoughts. The old approaches are comfortable and familiar which gives them a right feeling.

I have a page about keeping teeth cleaner.
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/#!cleaner-teeth/cvhq

The issue with the teeth is probably genetic. Sticky foods that don't dissolve -- like raisins -- can cause decay but that's easily solved by eating other foods that wash them away like hard cheeses. That's just one of the many ideas gathered on that page.

I suspect what's causing the most problems is that she lacks confidence in any approach. She keeps controlling food because it's what everyone does. But she doesn't feel right about it and lacks confidence that it will work.

Joyce


D. Regan


 
...I said to her if she'd just even experimented for a month with giving him total freedom then things might be very different now. She got the point but whether she'll take my advice or not I can't say. That's the challenge being a grandparent .... you have all the attachment and love for your grandchildren but not the ultimate say. That's why I was wondering if anyone had any insight in how I could best support my daughter. 
 
I would focus on bringing practical help and your own peace.  
Be a good listener.   
Let go of ideas of changing her mind.  
Be a calm, wise resource for your daughter if she is looking for other ideas or perspectives.    
Bring joy to their lives.

Happiness and safe peacefulness are great conditions for healing and learning.  Help those to grow.
   
Debbie :)

Belinda Aycrigg

In other words apply the principles of unschooling to my relationship with my daughter instead of trying to control things. And by being peaceful things can heal, but if I'm anxious and pushing for a result how can she be free to learn.
This is beautiful and very freeing for me, thank you Debbie.

Sandra Dodd

-=-
> I suppose I don't really want to go into all the details here because they might detract from the main issue which is as a grandparent what is the best way to help? Because in one sense maybe I should be concerned with unschooling my daughter -not worrying so much about my grandsons if you know what I mean. -=-

I don't think you should be "unschooling" your daughter. She's a grown woman, and you don't need an alternative to school.

Perhaps you could be inspirational, but please don't be manipulative.

Be sweet to your grandsons without putting a wedge between the and their mom.
Do fun things. Be fun.

Sandra

Belinda Aycrigg

Yes I didn't really mean unschooling her but using the principles of unschooling  one of which I see as fully trusting her instead of worrying about her and trying to control things.  I think that way I will be free and peaceful to be inspirational and fun.



Sandra Dodd

-=-Yes I didn't really mean unschooling her but using the principles of unschooling one of which I see as fully trusting her instead of worrying about her and trying to control things. I think that way I will be free and peaceful to be inspirational and fun. -=-

That already has a name, though: Detachment.
That's the avoidance of co-dependency, in which your happiness depends on her "happiness" [by your own definition of happiness].

-=- the principles of unschooling one of which I see as fully trusting her-=-

I don't see that as a principle of unschooling, especially as regards the mother of another human being.

With children, when parents are deschooling and learning about natural learning, "trust" comes up, but it's clearer and more helpful to think of it as trusting that children want to learn, that children can and DO learn, if not thwarted.

But the time someone is grown and working and busy and having children, they might not be in the want-to-learn mode that young children of happy and hopeful parents are.

So I do agree with the overall statement, and trusting that you will make things worse with pressure is a good thought. If you're "trusting" that your daughter will come to unschooling, she might not. Most people don't, and even a fair percentage of those who want to and try to don't loose their grip on enough other things to let it happen.

I'm not trying to be discouraging of your vision, but of the idea that what a grandparent wants is a goal to cling to. Sometimes the best thing to do might be to buy the child some sool clothes and take him or her somewhere fun to wear them. A level back from direct decisions about everyday life.

Sandra

Belinda Aycrigg

-=-So I do agree with the overall statement, and trusting that you will make things worse with pressure is a good thought. If you're "trusting" that your daughter will come to unschooling, she might not. Most people don't, and even a fair percentage of those who want to and try to don't loose their grip on enough other things to let it happen.

I'm not trying to be discouraging of your vision, but of the idea that what a grandparent wants is a goal to cling to. Sometimes the best thing to do might be to buy the child some sool clothes and take him or her somewhere fun to wear them. A level back from direct decisions about everyday life.-=-

I like that last statement. I felt a big weight lift off my shoulders reading it.  I worried that they would be damaged. But they will probably be more damaged by conflict between mother and grandparent than if I stick to my role as grandparent a 'level back from direct decisions about everyday life'.  

I think the boundaries got a bit blurred because they were living with us for a few months. Now they have moved out and I am already feeling different with that and the counsel I am getting here. It was hard always having the interactions played out before my eyes. i think that physical separation will assist the psychological separation and help with the codependance you talk about Sandra. I have been overfocused on them. 

And trusting that my daughter will come to unschooling is not real trust is it? There is an agenda which is not fully trusting and accepting of her decisions.

Thank you very much Sandra.





On Sunday, 6 September 2015 3:43 PM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
-=-Yes I didn't really mean unschooling her but using the principles of unschooling one of which I see as fully trusting her instead of worrying about her and trying to control things. I think that way I will be free and peaceful to be inspirational and fun. -=-

That already has a name, though: Detachment.
That's the avoidance of co-dependency, in which your happiness depends on her "happiness" [by your own definition of happiness].

-=- the principles of unschooling one of which I see as fully trusting her-=-

I don't see that as a principle of unschooling, especially as regards the mother of another human being.

With children, when parents are deschooling and learning about natural learning, "trust" comes up, but it's clearer and more helpful to think of it as trusting that children want to learn, that children can and DO learn, if not thwarted.

But the time someone is grown and working and busy and having children, they might not be in the want-to-learn mode that young children of happy and hopeful parents are.

So I do agree with the overall statement, and trusting that you will make things worse with pressure is a good thought. If you're "trusting" that your daughter will come to unschooling, she might not. Most people don't, and even a fair percentage of those who want to and try to don't loose their grip on enough other things to let it happen.

I'm not trying to be discouraging of your vision, but of the idea that what a grandparent wants is a goal to cling to. Sometimes the best thing to do might be to buy the child some sool clothes and take him or her somewhere fun to wear them. A level back from direct decisions about everyday life.

Sandra



Sandra@...

I meant "Cool clothes" but this typo makes it all wrong.  Sorry.

I approved a post (I hope) but am not seeing it here.   Perhaps there's a delay.  It's going to be quoted, though, as "sool clothes."  Sorry.

Here's the way that paragraph should've looked:

-=-I'm not trying to be discouraging of your vision, but of the idea that what a grandparent wants is a goal to cling to. Sometimes the best thing to do might be to buy the child some cool clothes and take him or her somewhere fun to wear them. A level back from direct decisions about everyday life. -=-

Sandra
 

Sandra Dodd

-=-. . . if I stick to my role as grandparent a 'level back from direct decisions about everyday life'.

-=-I think the boundaries got a bit blurred because they were living with us for a few months. -=-

My son Kirby (29) his girlfriend and the girlfriend's daughter (6) are living with us for a while. They've found a place to buy, very nearby and will be moving out gradually, beginning (I think) in November. They want to paint and fix some things, and it's only 1/3 of a mile.

The boundaries can't help but blur when a family is living with another family, especially with a parent, in a home that's not theirs. We've had a few incidents here. I learned to try to go emotionally and verbally limp—not to engage, let it go. It's got to be harder for them than it is for me and Keith, them living here. Kirby's been away from home since he turned 21, and to come back and have me seeing how he's doing things, and when and where, and his little failings, and his successes—that's all apart from him trying to make sure his partner is comfortable. Over all, we're doing well, but some of it's hard, and unexpectedly and suddenly something awkward can arise. I hide out in other parts of the house sometimes, to give them more space, and to avoid expressing any opinion even subtly.

Every morning I take Devyn to school. The last time I dealt with school in this way, my thirteen-year-old half brother was living with us and going to midschool. Kirby and Destiny work at 5:00 a.m. and pick her up after school and do all the homework and maintenance and clothing and backpack prep. I just wake her up, hang out a bit, and drive her over.

I get opinions bubbling up all the time, and I'm not even a real grandmother. :-)

But I've bought her some cute leggings and a pair of shoes, a stylin' little sweatshirt-jacket, and I try to deliver her in a good mood, early enough to play on the playground before the bell—her morning goal.

When they're all moved, in a few months, I'll still be the school delivery person, but there won't be so much mess or crowdedness, and everyone will have more privacy, and I'm glad of the luxury of their good jobs and ability to take care of each other. I'm glad a family Kirby impressed as a teen likes him enough still to offer him a great deal on buying a house that's been in their family.

The most important thing for me, I think, is to maintain trust and peace. They want me to help them, not to own and operate them.

Sandra

Belinda Aycrigg

Yes i figured that's what you meant although at first take I thought it might be an Americanism I hadn't heard of!

Belinda Aycrigg

First of all I'd like to thank you Sandra for taking the time to really go into this and share your experience. Second I'm delighted at the fortunate coincidence that you have such a similar situation and can give the benefit of your wisdom in such a real way.
 
-=-The boundaries can't help but blur when a family is living with another family, especially with a parent, in a home that's not theirs. We've had a few incidents here. I learned to try to go emotionally and verbally limp—not to engage, let it go. It's got to be harder for them than it is for me and Keith, them living here.-=-
 
You are very thoughtful of them …. Much more so than I have been with my family I think.  With a daughter it is I suppose different. My daughter probably feels much more comfortable about taking over my kitchen for example than Kirby's partner might….  And I think when its your daughters kids there is more of a tie. This may be a generalisation.  I appreciate your description of going verbally limp.  I'm thinking from your development as an unschooling parent  you are probably far more adept at that sort of conscious self restraint than I have been.  I have tended to say things and then regret it.
 
-=-Over all, we're doing well, but some of it's hard, and unexpectedly and suddenly something awkward can arise. I hide out in other parts of the house sometimes, to give them more space, and to avoid expressing any opinion even subtly.-=-
 
Again a conscious stance on your part which I would do well to emulate.  It comes from you underlying philosophy doesn't it? As you say -

-=-The most important thing for me, I think, is to maintain trust and peace. They want me to help them, not to own and operate them.-=-
 
And then you say
 
-=- I get opinions bubbling up all the time, and I'm not even a real grandmother. :-) -=-
 
Which is inevitable given how dynamically and with what expertise you have brought up your own children and even more interesting that in this situation you choose to say nothing and allow them to make their own choices.
 
My daughter Rama was saying it will be interesting how the unschooled kids bring up their kids. I suppose Kirby's isn't a straightforward case as she is not his daughter by birth and his partner may not want to unschool. Still it'll be interesting to see.
 
Rama and family have now gone to India for 5 months after being with us for about 14 months.  It's incredible the difference. It's sort of one extreme to the other. You're fortunate your family will just be down the road!
Rama did say before she left that she thought it would be good for them to be aprt from us for a while and she could find out what is her view and where she might be being influenced by me. Which I could understand. We do have a very close and loving relationship she wasn't saying it in an upset way at all. More reflective. So there is much to learn as a grandma and it’s a different role as I think you've been pointing out.
 
I definitely do try to do fun things with the boys. When they come back we will live close but not together and I can play that role more easily not seeing the day to day stuff all the time I hope.
 
Thank you again Sandra
 
Belinda
 



 
 
 
 

Sandra Dodd

-=- I'm thinking from your development as an unschooling parent you are probably far more adept at that sort of conscious self restraint than I have been. I have tended to say things and then regret it.-=-

"Conscious self restraint" isn't the way I think of it.
Even before we were unschooling, in another context, I had started practicing "make the better choice." And when Kirby was a baby, I was trying to choose what would be good for him, over what I vaguely thought my mom would have done, or what vaguely seemed like what others were doing. So "conscious," yes. But to think of it as "self restraint" pits me against myself!

Think of it as thinking before you act.
http://sandradodd.com/choice
There's a transcript of part of a talk (the sound file of the talk is there, too) at the bottom here:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully (Marta transcribed it, and I'm grateful for that.)

-=-My daughter Rama was saying it will be interesting how the unschooled kids bring up their kids. I suppose Kirby's isn't a straightforward case as she is not his daughter by birth and his partner may not want to unschool. Still it'll be interesting to see.-=-

School will be different for her, I think, because both her mom and Kirby *KNOW* that it's possible to learn without school, and that school can do damage. They will be more neutral and prepared to change course than they would be if Kirby hadn't been unschooled.

-=-Rama did say before she left that she thought it would be good for them to be aprt from us for a while and she could find out what is her view and where she might be being influenced by me. Which I could understand. We do have a very close and loving relationship she wasn't saying it in an upset way at all. More reflective. So there is much to learn as a grandma and it’s a different role as I think you've been pointing out.-=-

When a situation is even subtly adversarial, there will be a winner and a loser. If she did what you were pressing her to do, she would lose.
If, far away, she considers it all in private, what she does will not be about you, but about the ideas themselves. So IF she changes toward the direction you chose, don't grab it and take credit for it. Try not to even subtly express approval or relief, because that will make it yours, and she loses. That's a hard one I've screwed up many times, especially with Holly. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I wrote:
-=-Over all, we're doing well, but some of it's hard, and unexpectedly and suddenly something awkward can arise. I hide out in other parts of the house sometimes, to give them more space, and to avoid expressing any opinion even subtly.-=-


Belinda wrote:
-=-Again a conscious stance on your part which I would do well to emulate. It comes from you underlying philosophy doesn't it? -=-

Experience. Your kids know whether you're happy or unhappy, by the millisecond, whether you say anything or not, whether they're looking at you or not. So if you're emotional about what they're doing, go check the laundry! Go see if the mail has come! Water the flowers in the yard! :-)

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

Parenting with judgment is the opposite of parenting with joy, giving from empty instead of from full. Are there techniques for shifting from empty to full *in the moment*, if you can't walk away because the child needs you?

I am at an internally and externally stressful period in my life, and I'm getting as much help and support as I can muster but there are a lot of moments right now when everything is going swimmingly and then I start to spiral downward. I think there is a page on your blog, Sandra, but I can't find it. It's not "me-time" or "self-care," it's more like "menopause" or "unemployment" :)

Sarah

Sandra Dodd

-=-Parenting with judgment is the opposite of parenting with joy, giving from empty instead of from full. -=-

I disagree with that. It's pretty, but it's not good.

Some people are giddy to be judgmental. :-)
Judgment isn't "emptiness."

Anyone who is using no judgment whatsoever is thinking baselessly. Some thing ARE better than other things, clearly. (The statement above says that joy is better than judgment, but from what viewpoint? In whose judgment?)

Perhaps and probably you were thinking of "being judgmental," rather than being discerning (using good judgment).

So unfortunately the post is in here forever. I hope not too many people print it out and put it on their bathroom mirror. :-)

-=-I am at an internally and externally stressful period in my life, and I'm getting as much help and support as I can muster but there are a lot of moments right now when everything is going swimmingly and then I start to spiral downward. I think there is a page on your blog, Sandra, but I can't find it. It's not "me-time" or "self-care," it's more like "menopause" or "unemployment" :)-=-

Don't think of a downward spiral as "judgment." Think of it as negativity, maybe.

http://sandradodd.com/mentalhealth
http://sandradodd.com/peace/mama

I hope one of those is the page you're thinking of, or has a link to it. If not, give us more clues and someone will find it for you. Or write one or something. :-)

And here are ideas about judgment: http://sandradodd.com/judgment

Sandra

Sarah Thompson

Yes, "being judgmental of their choices" is more what I meant.

Sarah

Sarah Thompson

I hadn't seen the guilt page before, but something strikes me as I read it. If I get a feeling of failure or guilt because I *am* failing, failing to be present, to joyfully engage, to see the abundance and welcome my child's energy, then my first-aid can be to acknowledge that I have a choice to do better, right then. There's no absolute physical law that says:  when a wave of anxiety hits, I *have to* start failing.

I can choose, in that moment, to double down in my presence, my attention, my joy, my abundance; I can insist that those things be in my life instead of failure, at least for that one minute. And then the next. Almost like a 12-step program.

Sarah