<kgharriman1@...>

We have always had breakfast, lunch and tea, and morning tea and quiet time after lunch... I was prompted to come here after reading Sandra's words in her Big Book about not being guided by the clock. We have in a loose fashion, give or take an hour or so. But so often lately our girls (8 and 6) either just don't eat breakfast, or find something unhealthy which kind of ends up being breakfast by the fact that its in the morning (yesterday it was a chocolate freddo at 11 am :0). Lunch is very hit and miss and then they grab snacks of some description because mostly they refuse to come up for lunch when I have salad ready... and tea, well, it might be a couple of mouthfuls and that's it. We have never requested clean plate or any of that kind sort of thing. I do find this chaotic messiness of food consumption as challenging as their copious amounts of tv/ipod/computer watching as the fact that our eldest daughter hasn't beed to bed before 11 pm for weeks....

it feels like our life is unravelling and falling apart. where does one go when all of these "anchor points" in your day seem to fall to the bottom of the ocean and you're all drifting about in a great big stormy sea?

Kirsty

Jo Isaac

Do you take them food during the day, or just wait for them to come and ask or take something themselves? My son doesn't often want breakfast immediately upon waking, but i'll ask him and eventually he'll want something - breakfast can be anything from cereal, to noodles, to a sandwich, or sushi...I take it to him wherever he is - on the couch, in his room, or at the computer.

He eats when he's hungry. Sometimes i'll take a monkey platter to the computer without him asking. He tends to eat a lot just before bed also.

==I do find this chaotic messiness of food consumption ==

It doesn't sound like chaotic messiness to me - it sounds like they don't want to leave what they are doing to come eat at a table at a prescribed time (a time when maybe they aren't even hungry?). Have easy to make-up things ready in the fridge to take to them - for example I have sushi rice made up and cold in the fridge right now, and cooked noodles - I just have to heat them up. I used to have cooked mac and cheese in the fridge, ready to heat up , but Kai has gone off that for now.

Sandwiches are easy, Monkey Platters are awesome - ours often have apple, baby corn, strawberries and cucumber on them, but there are lots of other ideas here: http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Jo




To: [email protected]
From: kgharriman1@...
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2014 14:34:29 -0800
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] breakfast, lunch and tea and quite time and...

 
We have always had breakfast, lunch and tea, and morning tea and quiet time after lunch... I was prompted to come here after reading Sandra's words in her Big Book about not being guided by the clock. We have in a loose fashion, give or take an hour or so. But so often lately our girls (8 and 6) either just don't eat breakfast, or find something unhealthy which kind of ends up being breakfast by the fact that its in the morning (yesterday it was a chocolate freddo at 11 am :0). Lunch is very hit and miss and then they grab snacks of some description because mostly they refuse to come up for lunch when I have salad ready... and tea, well, it might be a couple of mouthfuls and that's it. We have never requested clean plate or any of that kind sort of thing. I do find this chaotic messiness of food consumption as challenging as their copious amounts of tv/ipod/computer watching as the fact that our eldest daughter hasn't beed to bed before 11 pm for weeks....

it feels like our life is unravelling and falling apart. where does one go when all of these "anchor points" in your day seem to fall to the bottom of the ocean and you're all drifting about in a great big stormy sea?

Kirsty

Sandra Dodd

-=-where does one go when all of these "anchor points" in your day seem to fall to the bottom of the ocean and you're all drifting about in a great big stormy sea?-=-

Choosing a less dramatic analogy would be MUCH better, right then.

Don't think of your life as a great big stormy sea.
Where do you go when you are safe at home with your children, you have enough food to create three or five meals a day, you have electricity, internet access, a book full of ideas of things to do with children, a discussion group where people will give you links to even MORE ideas, and you live where it's legal to keep your children home?

There are LOTS of things to think that will soothe you with images of plenty, of abundance, and of gratitude.  You're safe at your home.  Don't borrow a great bit stormy sea of trouble.

If your day has been based on meal times rather than learning, it might be a good time for a change!

Sandra

<kgharriman1@...>

"Great big stormy sea" does seem an extreme analogy now that I am reading my post back. I like creative analogies and wrote this too quickly. .. maybe upon reflection I was describing the sibling rivalry and conflict which is subject of a whole different post. Does one forgo mealtimes if mealtimes involve a request to leave activity because that's seen as a form of control? How long do you allow them to consume unhealthy snack food randomly during the day (aka grazing) before intervening? We have come from big limits on sugar and tv/computer so am I now seeing binging as they don't know when my mummy's controlling ways might come back? When do these things (high sugar foods and many many barbie movies in succession) become just another choice rather than being all-consuming? What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?

Jo Isaac


==Does one forgo mealtimes if mealtimes involve a request to leave activity because that's seen as a form of control? ==

Do you only see it as a 'mealtime' if everyone comes to the table and eats together? In our house, the only meal we all eat at approximately the same time is usually dinner (and quite often Kai has something different to myself and my husband), and we all eat it wherever we are - usually at our separate computers, or on the couch. It's still a mealtime. It's still mealtime if we all eat at different times. We don't forgo mealtimes, but I don't ask Kai (or my husband) to leave what he's doing, I take mealtime to him - put his meal next to his computer, or next to him on the couch.

I'm sure you have read this, but it doesn't hurt to re-read (and re-read again!) http://sandradodd.com/food

==How long do you allow them to consume unhealthy snack food randomly during the day (aka grazing) before intervening?==

It would help if you stop seeing some foods as 'unhealthy' and others as 'healthy'. You don't know what is healthy for another persons body, you couldn't possibly. Fix them snacks and take them to them. Make monkey platters. Make more food available to them.

 ==We have come from big limits on sugar and tv/computer so am I now seeing binging as they don't know when my mummy's controlling ways might come back? ==

Possibly, to a degree. They may be trying to get as much of a previously limited resource as they can, in case you change your mind. But stop thinking of things as 'binging', they are simply trying to get their fill of things they've been unable to get their fill of before. 

==What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?==
Plenty! If your kids are watching something over and over, they are getting something from it. You may not know what. You may never really know what. Just know that they are - or they wouldn't want to watch it over and over 
http://sandradodd.com/barbie
and http://sandradodd.com/barbielearning (and links from those links also!)

Sandra Dodd

-=- I like creative analogies -=-

There is creativity, and there is clarity.  When you're thinking about how to be your child's partner, clarity is important.  When you're describing something to us so that we can help you, clarity is important.

It's important in this case that I was able to point out that you had created an ocean of dangerous turmoil. :-)  Clear it out.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 31, 2014, at 5:34 PM, <kgharriman1@...> <kgharriman1@...> wrote:

> But so often lately our girls (8 and 6) either just don't eat breakfast,
> or find something unhealthy which kind of ends up being breakfast

They're changing. You're not adapting.

Rather than trying to wind their clocks back to the age when they fit in better with your ideas, change your ideas and what you do.

It sounds like you've divided the food in your home into nutritious meals and less nutritious snacks. So the only way for them to get nutritious food is to come to the table and eat a meal.

Wouldn't it make more sense to release the nutritiously dense food from the table? Make muffins and smoothies and cut up fruits and other portable easy to grab foods -- in *addition* to the snacks they ask you to buy.

Notice the snacks they're eating. Explore similar homemade varieties.

Give them choice! :-)

Sandra has some pages on monkey platters:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters/

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 31, 2014, at 11:42 PM, <kgharriman1@...> <kgharriman1@...> wrote:

> Does one forgo mealtimes if mealtimes involve a request to leave
> activity because that's seen as a form of control?

Don't add a layer of "unschooling rules" to your life.

The purpose of food is to feed hungry bodies. Meals are one way of delivering it. Meals are convenient for cooks. Meals can have the handy side effect of gathering the family together. But if meals aren't working for your kids to get the food they need, meals aren't the only way for your kids to eat.

The problem you should be focusing on is how to get food to your kids, not how to get your kids to the table ;-)

Lots of parenting issues can be solved by letting go of a solution that's not working and looking at other ways to meet the need the solution was meant to meet.

> When do these things (high sugar foods and many many barbie movies
> in succession) become just another choice rather than being all-consuming?

When it stops being an issue for you.

In effect your kids are recovering from broken legs. You're hovering wondering when they'll get up off the couch and start running again. Stop hovering. Be at peace with who they are right now. Trust they'll be different when they're ready to be different.

> What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?


A lot of roadblocks to learning can be eliminated by moms not making snap judgements about what is learningful and what isn't.

If your kids are engaged they're learning. *They* see something that you don't. If you want to unschool, learn to see through their eyes rather than criticizing them for not seeing the world through yours.

Sit with them. Watch. Watch *them*. Learn about them as you learn about their interests. The more you see them through the image you think they should be, the less connected with them you'll grow.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-How long do you allow them to consume unhealthy snack food randomly during the day (aka grazing) before intervening?-=-

"Intervene" is an antagonistic word.  It's an "us vs. them" word.  It's not about partnership.
"Consume" is a cold, clinical word.  It's used of strangers, or enemies.

If your priority is to control when and what people in your house eat, then unschooling will not be a good idea for your family.

If our priority is peace, and learning (even about food—not just your kids learning, but you learning in new and different ways, not just from a book), and partnership, and longterm happiness and growth, then you (the mom) will need to dismantle what you think you know, and how you think thinks must be.  That will involve examining  your thoughts and terminology and attitudes and reactions.    That's the deschooling you will need to go through to become an unschooling mom.

You can't live as a controlling, mainstream mom and have children who learn to choose wisely and live thoughtfully.

Children who are controlled and who have someone else "think for them" all the time learn to avoid being complaint, to be sneaky, or to be resentful, or to long for more, long for something different. They look forward to being older, rather than loving being who and where they are.

If the mom, too, is wishing for them to be different, who will love them where they really are?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Joyce wrote:

-=-Lots of parenting issues can be solved by letting go of a solution that's not working and looking at other ways to meet the need the solution was meant to meet.-=- 

That is what living by principles is about.  The questions of why, not the questions of when/where/how.

WHY do people eat?  What is the purpose of food?

WHY do people sleep?  What is the purpose of sleep?

WHY do people watch a show more than once, or listen to a song more than once, or read a book more than once, or look at a painting more than once

Those are good questions to consider, when trying to figure out how to see and feel differently, so that unschooling can begin to flow better.  


Sandra

CASS KOTRBA

-=-  How long do you allow them to consume unhealthy snack food randomly during the day (aka grazing) before intervening? We have come from big limits on sugar and tv/computer so am I now seeing binging as they don't know when my mummy's controlling ways might come back? When do these things (high sugar foods and many many barbie movies in succession) become just another choice rather than being all-consuming?  -=-
 
From now on you allow them to eat what, when and where they want.  When do they start to choose the foods that they really want rather than choosing something primarily because it was controlled before?  It takes about 1 month for each year that food was previously controlled.  But it doesn't start until you truly let go of worrying about it, making little comments, etc.  From the time that we started unschooling to the time my daughter stopped worrying about me controlling her food it was about 14 months.  She was 10 when we started.  That tells us that it took me awhile to really let go and stop worrying (sometimes aloud) about her choices.  During this time I would tell my daughter "Jade, I'm never going to go back to controlling what you eat."  She would look me straight in the eye and say "I don't believe you".  I realized that every time I worried aloud or criticized her choices it was setting us back.  It took me quite awhile to get to the point where I wasn't just keeping my mouth shut about her choices and was able to transition into genuinely not worrying about it.
 
During that 14 months she rarely ate anything that I would consider a meal.  She grazed, primarily food out of brightly colored packages, boxes and cans.  I would take her to the grocery store & she would study the aisles, choosing things that seemed interesting to her.  I would buy variety packs as often as I could find them.  She was fully and completely in charge of those choices which has allowed her to heal from what she perceived as a time of lack. 
 
Today she eats a lot more protein and things that are more like a meal.  Lots of hot dogs, sandwiches, etc.  She still loves those brightly colored food and packages and enjoys eating those things but it is no longer her sole sustenance. 
 
She also loves to sit in her bed or on the couch with her laptop ALL day.  For the past several weeks the only time she has come out of her room is to run to the bathroom.  So I go in to touch base with her.  I ask if she's hungry several times a day and when the answer is "Yes" we come up with something that sounds good to her and I bring it.  Often she will then show me what she's working on or tell me about what's going on in her skype calls, etc.  She recently experimented with staying up until 2am or later and the other day slept until 3pm.  Now she's starting to choose to sleep and wake on a schedule more similar to the rest of the family.  The point is - I don't worry about any of that.  I remember moving out of my parents house as a young adult and experimenting with all those same things.  It makes me feel warm & happy inside to know that she doesn't have to wait to explore life, ideas, options, etc.  She is exploring now and having a great time in the safety and comfort of her own bedroom.  I see her in there all cozy and happy and I am so glad for her to have that experience.  I could see it as "oh my God, this little girl is so out of control" but she isn't.  She's just exploring.  She is a happy, healthy, curious, inquisitive young lady and I think that's awesome.  And I know that once she does hits those young adult years she is going to be much more prepared then her traditionally parented peers. 
 
So try to take a deep breath and relax.  Your girls are learning, they are happy and they are safe.  That's what is important.  :D  BTW - it used to be Barbie movies at our house too.  Now we have transitioned to Family Guy, South Park, etc. so enjoy those Barbie movies for now!  Once they start experimenting with swearing and racier TV shows, You Tube videos, etc. you will no doubt be challenged again!  Just remember that they are learning and experimenting - not turning into juvenile delinquents!  It is perfectly normal to be curious about all facets of the world - even those that make Mom uncomfortable!
-Cass

<plaidpanties666@...>

What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?


Wow, those are great movies! Full of all sorts of heroism, drama, the power of friendship, plus music and really lovely animation. And many are old stories - myths and folktales and classical literature. I was really impressed with the Barbie movies back when Mo liked that sort of thing.

Around the same time we had one of the video games and Mo had a friend who just loooooved to play those - he hadn't been allowed to play them when he was little, but he adored the dress-up and the simple story lines where the good gals always won. It helped him through a very rough winter when he was dealing with a lot of depression. So they can be healing for wounded hearts, too. 

Karen

>>>>>What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?<<<<<

Sometimes the comment "over and over" can come across a bit belittling like someone is stuck in a loop. Finding ways to rephrase things in your own mind will help you see more clearly what your children are actually gaining from the activities they are choosing to participate in.

Your child likes to re-watch certain movies many times. Likely every time brings a new experience, something gained, something learned. Some of the things I could imagine a child gaining from watching things multiple times might be:

* Understanding the story line better. Understanding the structure of story lines in general better.

* Familiarizing of songs, dancing, dialogue, sets, costume, and/or character and character development.

* For some people, memorization is very satisfying, and it gives a sense of accomplishment (and can be thrilling, even) to be able to recite lines from songs or dialogue.

* Watching anything repeatedly can be a valuable means to remembering information. We understand that, but children are learning how useful that can be for them.

* Listening to dialogue expands vocabulary. Knowing what dialogue is coming up next, helps the listener focus on the nuances of the dialogue and not just the words - body language, intonation, contrast between characters, moods.

* Some children like to watch things that are scary or dramatic or difficult in some way many times because each time allows them to have some predictability over what is coming up next, and a sense of accomplishment in facing known fears and dealing with them.

* It might also be true that between the time the video was watched the first time and the next, something else might have happened in the child's life, giving them a new context in which to view the video again. A relevant model of the world can be built by making new connections between experiences.

Finally, there might be something particularly interesting in the video. That would be valuable for the parent to know, so that she could bring more of that interest into the child's world to explore. That's why watching videos with the child whenever possible is such a valuable resource for building a rich and relevant learning environment.

Karen.

CASS KOTRBA

-=-  She still loves those brightly colored food and packages and enjoys eating those things but it is no longer her sole sustenance. -=-
 
Not "sole sustenance", "primary focus" is what I meant.
 
I still prepare meals for my husband and I because we enjoy that.  I offer that food to the kids but the choice is theirs without judgment (which includes verbal comments as well as nonverbal judgment such as sighs, drooping shoulders, rolling eyes, etc.). ;D
 

Sandra Dodd

-=-From now on you allow them to eat what, when and where they want.-=-

I think there are some exceptions, but there shouldn't be hundreds of exceptions.

An hour before something like Thanksgiving or Christmas dinner, no.
At a wedding, before food is served, no.
At a funeral, not even kind of.

At someone else's house?  You might not have the option.  You might need to go out for a walk and offer them something you have stashed in your bag.

Don't bring your hot dog to the vegan friend's house.  Don't bring stinky food to places where others can't get away.  Don't bring great-smelling food to a hospital room where someone is on a restricted diet, or on an IV with no food allowed.

Some families don't let food into bedrooms.  Some have formal living rooms with expensive carpet and food doesn't go in there.

Getting up at 2:00 a.m. shouldn't be an "eat anything you want" situation, especially for someone very young, or someone who's older but can't get food out without making enough noise to wake people up.

"It depends" is a good first answer when someone asks whether something is or is not okay.  There is no "rule" that says unschoolers can eat anything they want any time.  But there should not be arbitrary restrictions, just realy, logical, sensible ones involving courtesy and common sense.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-What is there to learn from watching barbie movies over and over?-=-

I've put up four topics where people are quickly and enthusiastically reporting which books, music, movies and art they have watched/read/seen over 4 times.  Some are reporting fifty times.  

I didn't tell them why I asked, but I thought maybe a mom wondering about why a child would watch a movie over and over would enjoy finding those threads and seeing the exciteent in adults, and think about her own favorite things, and what she values and appreciates.

<fishbeensnail@...>

Xander (3.5years) was watching The Nightmare Before Christmas over and over through December.  If I had speculated about it, which I didn't, I would have guessed that he was learning something seasonal.  After a few weeks of repeated viewing he was ready to branch out.  He chose to watch Trumpton, which he had enjoyed for a while more than a year ago.  I was a little surprised that he remembered it well enough to seek it out.  As we watched it it slowly dawned on me that this program was early stop motion.  After that he wanted to watch some Aardman stuff, also stop motion.


You can not be inside you child's head and know what they are seeing and learning.  If you spend all your time guessing and scrutinizing and quantifying you are missing an opportunity to be a participant in their learning process. Make a leap of faith and build trust instead.