Sandra Dodd

What's below was written by Glenda/wtexans, maybe on this list, sometime in the past. I have it on this page: http://sandradodd.com/change/

But I wanted to talk about relationships a bit, and this is a great intro.

------------------------------------------------------
I vividly remember there being a point several years into unschooling when I realized that so many of the things that had taken conscious effort in the beginning, had become second nature for me at some point along the way.

So my answer would be, be conscious of what you're saying and doing. Be more aware of your thoughts. If you act or react in a knee-jerk way that doesn't help relationships with your family, apologize to them and make a different, better choice in that moment.

I found it pretty easy to make the paradigm shift in my interactions with my son, but it was much harder to make that shift in my interactions with my husband. And that's still an ongoing change in our relationship, although it does come more naturally now�but it's still not as seamless as it is for me in my interactions with my son.

When I'm tired or hungry or don't feel well, I have to be more thoughtful about how I talk to my husband and how I think about him, because it's easy for me to slip into a negative place and to focus on the things he didn't do that I wish he had or the things he did that annoyed me.

One of the best things I've done for our marriage is to be more quiet when I'm tired/hungry/not feeling well. In those instances, I'm more prone to feel like snarking at my husband, or commenting on something he did / didn't do, or otherwise saying something that would be hurtful to him.

What goes along with that, for me, is to remind myself of the things he *does* do. And also to remind myself that "it's not all about ME!!". If the trash is full and he doesn't take it out when he heads outside, him not taking it has nothing whatsoever to do with me, in spite of what my tired/hungry/cranky brain may want to think in that moment ;-).

When you're feeling competitive with your husband, be aware of what you're thinking and be aware of how easy it could be, in that moment, to snark at him. Then make the choice to not snark at him. And make the choice to think nice thoughts about him, to think about the nice things he does for you and your daughters. Be the one to make the better choice in that moment, to not say or do something that contributes to the competitiveness.

Glenda

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

awa

Hi!

I'm on this list for some time now, this is my first post. I'm from
Germany with no unschooling families at reach. This is about me
(mostly), but also about my three year old son, my neighbor and her now
4 year old son.

I hope to find new perspectives and ways to handle the situation.

I'm thinking of telling my next door neighbor to leave me and my family
alone, espacially to quit knocking on our door to ask us out (playing in
the courtyard, going to the playground..). It disturbs me so much that
she is doing that. In fact it disturbs me to see her around the house
(although she ist not really doing anything to me, we just have some
history and most importantly I feel controlled and measured by her). She
moved here a little more than a year ago, first they lived on another
street but they moved to our house last july and are my next door
neighbors ever since. When they lived elsewhere we were kind of friends.
Her son (being one year older then my son - so at that time was 3 and
mine was 2yr old) was stressed from the move they had just done (or so I
thought!) and was hitting my son and disturbing his play a lot. He also
was and is a very loud child. They had to move again (and ended up at
our house) because of that.

That has not changed. He screams at the top of his lungs every morning
and often during the day. He goes out in the stairwells and screams or
starts kicking the door (his) or demaging the stairs, kicking the metal
handrail.. basically making as much noise as even is possible. It
distubrs ALL the people living here (some work nightshifts). Sometimes I
wake up, startled from all this (he goes to Kindergarten so leaves home
around 8 o'clock) noise.
He also destorys things mostly by throwing them or bashing them onto the
ground repeatedly (this got better, but still).
I'm sure it's not easy being his mom, but I felt for her and tried to
"be there" for about a year. Now, I'm out of energy for this familiy.

When we leave our home and/or (it depends) return to our home: they open
their door (we do keep quiet upon leaving/returning!) to check if it
really is us. Mostly the kid does that - which leads to my son
requesting to go play with him which often does not work for me or our
plans. Especially when we return after a busy day when we were out for
adventure and the plan is to eat and rest. Or just to rest because we
ate on the way.
Even when my son is tired he still wants to go and play. I feel bad
every time I tell him that it doesn't work out. I feel bad every time I
say yes.

Now, my son turned 3 years about 6 weeks ago. We had our bad moments
when he was 2 and so on, but he generelly was a kid who looked at me for
advice/reassurence, who was gentle and careful and really disturbed by
my neighbors kid hitting him.
Now he is the one hitting and disturbing play. He does it mostly to this
other kid, but he also hits his dad and me (not so much his baby sister
who is 9 month old now).

This is where I come in. I yell at him a lot which I did not when he was
younger. His father (my husband) does this too (on different issues than
I do).
I want a close and peaceful relationship with my son. I can see how I
disruped the trust he has build in me. I can change and I do, gradually.

What I also see is that he shows a lot of the behavior of my neighbors
child. He starts to be noisy in the stairwell. Yesterday he broke a
windwheel his great-grandma gave to him on his 2nd birthday by bashing
it to the ground repeatedly. He said that his friend does this stuff.
They broke a plaything which belongs to his babysister by shoving it
down the stairs (made noise in the stairwell too). He said that it was
something his friend (my neighbors son) suggested.

I see the patterns, I can imagine WHY he is doing what his friend does
or wants. The more he spents time with his friend the more he is
drifting from us. He did not just stop doing what we ask (like sitting
down at the table or be more quiet) sometimes he is even doing the exact
opposite now. Not always though.

I think he looks for ways to connect with us more. Since I had the baby
(July last year) I had less and less time or patience for him.
I even can say, that I never really had time for him, not even during
pragnancy (when I was pragnant with HIM!). I wrote my master thesis then
and I worked parttime. He was born 2 month early because of all the
stress I had. That was when I started to change my views on a lot of
things. I started therapy then because of depression and trauma. I
continued to work parttime until May last year.

I feel like a lousy mom, although he is such a great kid. The reason I
shout and yell so much now is that it just infuriates me when I see the
behavior of my neighbors child copied by him.
Or isn't it the other childs behavior? Is it just because my son turned
3 years old now? There are stories that this happens if childern turn 3
but I never believed them.

Dealing with my neighbor is complicated because I was raised to please
everyone's opinion so I basically throw myself against myself when I
think of telling her to leave us alone as much as possible. I do not
like to spent time with her. I feel controlled. I do not want my son to
see more of her sons behavior.

But being next door neighbors does mean, that we will see each other
around. Espacially with summer coming.. the kids playing outside, they
will of course play together when they meet.

So..it won't really help our neighborly relationship if I tell her, will
it?
On the other hand I really do not feel safe in my own home. I like to
keep to myself, I like being quite. My peace feels disturbed. I've
noticed that I'm angered when my son just mentions the other kids name.

I do not want this.. dispute. I do not want to take away a friendship,
but on the other hand my son is 3 years old and the other kid's behavior
is not a peaceful example at all. But it is espacially the mother (my
neighbor) that I can't stand anymore with her stories of how sugar is
pure death and tv/every screen is so bad and even my telephone is
killing us slowly because it's wireless.
Her son cannot take any candy/choclate and when he does she tries to get
rid of it in mean ways that look nice. Like telling him to share (and I
can't believe that works, but it does), even if every other kid got the
same candy and the same amount.
We had a lot of situations where I felt so bad, because my son got
icecream and her's didn't (which led to a screaming and crying child, my
son being concernd for his friend, me being unhappy AND hurt by the
noise her son was making), her telling my son (who wanted to share
-unasked!- his candy) to stop sharing (she never told my directly that
her son cannot have any candy from me).

What started out like a wonderful oppurtunity for a family friendship
has become my personal nightmare. I am so happy and relaxed now because
they are out of town for a week or two.

This post is getting waaaaaaay to long (thanks to everyone reading it up
until now!).

I feel like making a decision about our relationship would be most
helpful but at the same time I feel like I'm missing something. Maybe I
didn't think it through enough. Maybe my son behaves the way he does
because he is 3 years old (and those stories are true after all!).
But I feel in my gut, that I do not want to continue spending any time
with them. My son does not seem to miss the other kid. He is talking
about him but does not express a wish to see or speak him. This adds to
the observation, that my son only asks to go play with my neighbor's son
when they meet anyway, casually, when they see each other on the spot.

I hope some of you can point me to the knots in my thoughts. I'm
interested in reading more about 3 year olds and friends vs. family
issues. I'm also looking for ideas how to connect more with my son (we
co-sleep and I breastfeed both my children). He does not go to
Kindergarten. Should play with him the whole day long? What about my
baby? She needs me to be there to. What about me? I do join in or even
initiate plays sometimes, but I make our meals too (and wash our clothes
and clean our home). I don't really have the interest to play the whole
day either. Never did.

Please excuse me for writing this much. I have a tendency to do this
(also thinking to much as my parents always said). For those of you who
worked through this long text: THANK YOU!

Sandra Dodd

-=- He was born 2 month early because of all the stress I had. -=-

You don't know that for sure. 
You cannot know that it was stress that caused that.

If you were to move far from your neighbor, what would be different?  What would be better?

You would still feel like you didn't want to play with your child, and he would want a playmate.

MANY more people are lacking a playmate than having one.

Find ways and places for the boys to play where you are RIGHT THERE.  Not kind of near.  Not home.  Play with them, help them.  They're really little.

Invite the boy over and TELL HIM to be quieter.  TELL HIM that if he wants to play at your house he needs to be softer and gentler.

If it's the mom who's bugging you, deal with the boy directly.

If you want to tell her something, consider putting it in writing (and be brief, even if you're not used to it).  Say her negativity is difficult for you to be around, and you would rather talk about pleasant things when you're together.

Sandra

<lisajceledon@...>

<<I see the patterns, I can imagine WHY he is doing what his friend does
or wants. The more he spents time with his friend the more he is
drifting from us. He did not just stop doing what we ask (like sitting
down at the table or be more quiet) sometimes he is even doing the exact
opposite now. Not always though.>>

The pattern that you're seeing is children learning how to cope with being powerless, and controlled, and frustrated.

<<Since I had the baby
(July last year) I had less and less time or patience for him.
I even can say, that I never really had time for him, not even during
pragnancy (when I was pragnant with HIM!). I wrote my master thesis then
and I worked parttime. He was born 2 month early because of all the
stress I had. That was when I started to change my views on a lot of
things. I started therapy then because of depression and trauma. I
continued to work parttime until May last year.>>
>>

I have had a similar experience with my two children - when my first was born I was working full time and also going to school and working on my masters' thesis, and then got pregnant with a second child, and had a total nervous breakdown, even though I thought I'd already 'fixed' myself and all my issues in therapy, which I had 'responsibly' completed before having children. :)

  What helped me first was recognizing that old trauma was still getting in the way of the mom I wanted to be, and realizing (and trusting) that I would grow into and learn how to be the mom I wanted to be - not magically become that mom overnight.
  Reading here reminded me of Al-anon, which I had attended very briefly long before having kids. Al-anon has been helpful for me, sorting out how my relationships (including my relationships with my children) have been affected by things that happened while I was growing up, and helping me learn better coping skills than the ones I had.  It has also helped me begin to better understand unschooling principles that I didn't understand before (even though I thought I did).

<<I feel like a lousy mom, although he is such a great kid.>>
Feeling that way won't help you do better, in fact, focusing on negative feelings will make it harder to do better.  Looking at what interactions make you feel lousy and separating how something makes you feel from your worth as a person or a mother, will help you gain some perspective.  If something you do makes you feel lousy, like yelling at your son, you can begin to choose to do something different, something better. 
http://sandradodd.com/betterchoice.html
http://sandradodd.com/breathing

<< The reason I
shout and yell so much now is that it just infuriates me when I see the
behavior of my neighbors child copied by him.
Or isn't it the other childs behavior? Is it just because my son turned
3 years old now? There are stories that this happens if childern turn 3
but I never believed them.>>

Fury is often fear trying to be strong.  Figuring out what you're afraid of might help you start to understand more clearly what it is you're reacting to.  A child acting loud and powerful and aggressive is still powerless against the adults in his life at age three.  When the adults around them are also fearful and anxious, it makes being powerless frightening for a young child.  Some kids respond to that with aggression.

<<Dealing with my neighbor is complicated because I was raised to please
everyone's opinion so I basically throw myself against myself when I
think of telling her to leave us alone as much as possible. I do not
like to spent time with her. I feel controlled. I do not want my son to
see more of her sons behavior>>

Whose opinion of you matters more? Hers? Or your son's?  Does your opinion of yourself matter to you?  Those are questions to consider.  For unschooling, see yourself through your son's eyes, hear your voice and observe what you do as a child- your child- does, by focusing more on how they are receiving (or not) what you say and do, instead of focusing on whether you are doing things right or wrong.  That was hard for me at first.  I sometimes observed me as my ten year old self.  I'd be in the middle of a sentence and could just picture myself as a ten year old shaking my head at this adult vision of herself, like, "dude? really? what happened?"  It helped me be much more light-hearted about my mistakes, helped me jump out of some bad moments and turn them around, and helped me find humor sometimes in how silly I could be trying to control things, or how I could be so quick and ready to dismiss something fun.  That was easier at first than seeing myself through a younger, more vulnerable child's eyes, It gave me the distance and experience and internal accountability I needed to help me mature enough to be able to see myself more as my little boys might see me; and to make more choices more often that help me move toward being a more joyful, peaceful, trustworthy partner for them.  And the cool thing about partnership is that it really goes two ways-- the love and trust and generosity or anything you give to your partners, you give to yourself too. 

Lisa C

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 15, 2014, at 6:32 PM, awa <claire_oberon@...> wrote:

> ways to handle the situation.

What you're doing is wrapping all the potential contributing factors and all the issues into one big problem and then looking for one solution. That's what overthinking is.

But you don't have *a* situation. You have a dozen things you're rolling into one.

Break the problem down into manageable bites.

The biggest, most effective thing you can do is be there more for him. Some of the aggression might be being 3. But some of it sounds like he's lacking for your attention and it's coming out in hitting and destruction. You need to be with him. Not just nearby but attuned to him, attentive when he's showing you something, responsive when he needs something, aware to respond to shifts in the atmosphere that suggests he's in need of a change.

The second thing you can do is look at the bigger picture of the times when you find yourself yelling. You're yelling because life won't obey you. Of course it won't. But you *can* change the environment so people's needs are clashing. What's leading up to these times? *Why* is he hurting others? What need is he trying to meet that you're frustrating? How can you help him so he doesn't have to resort to methods that hurt others?

Be closer when the two boys play. When either child hits, let them know that's a no and let them know you're there to help. "No hitting. What do you want?" Be firm. If there's an instance or two you can write out -- succinctly! -- people can offer what they'd do so you can get a better idea of what to do.

Be more aware of the times when he's resorting to hitting the family. What's been going on before? Is the hitting "I'm trying to do this! I need help! And you're not paying attention!" The more of that you can eliminate, the easier it will be to handle the times when he's hitting because he's 3.

> But it is espacially the mother (my
> neighbor) that I can't stand anymore

While it's understandable since your parenting approaches are very different, I think you're also blaming her for a problem you don't know how to solve. You're just wishing she'd go away and take the problem with her. As they say, be careful what you wish for. If she does move, someone even more difficult could move in!

> most importantly I feel controlled and measured by her

She can't control you unless you let her. When she says something that makes you feel controlled, breath. You could say, "Well, I disagree, so let's talk about something we can agree on."

Her assessment of you means nothing unless you let it. She'll judge you. Others will judge you. It just means you're not living your life the way they think is best for them.

It's your family's judgment that counts. Is what you're doing supporting them in being happy? Would you change to make them unhappy in order to make someone else happy?

Maybe keeping a copy of the Serenity Prayer posted where you can see it often will help:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.


> Especially when we return after a busy day when we were out for
> adventure and the plan is to eat and rest.

Who's "we". Was the plan all agreed on? Why can't the plan change?

It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the decisions you make as "we". While you *will* be doing most of the scheduling, the schedule should be to accommodate needs, not confine them. Be as flexible as you can be when new opportunities arise. Your priority shouldn't be making your life easier and more convenient but to find ways to do one thing AND another. *Sometimes* that will mean putting a playdate off until the next day. But do make that a priority. Don't count on him forgetting. Ask him the next day if he still wants to play.

> Yesterday he broke a
> windwheel his great-grandma gave to him on his 2nd birthday by bashing
> it to the ground repeatedly. He said that his friend does this stuff.
> They broke a plaything which belongs to his babysister by shoving it
> down the stairs (made noise in the stairwell too).


You need to be with him more. The more he feels you're there to help him, the less he'll need to act on the feelings of being disconnected and shoved aside for his sister. Do this because *he* needs you closer, not because it will fix your problem with him.

> He did not just stop doing what we ask (like sitting
> down at the table or be more quiet) sometimes he is even doing the exact
> opposite now.


He can't defy you if you don't give him things to defy. Some of this might be discovering the power he has. But the less he needs to feel his power, the less he'll be fighting. Being with him more, engaging with him during the day will take care of the parts of this that are in reaction to feeling disconnected. Then it will be easier to deal with.

> I feel like a lousy mom, although he is such a great kid. The reason I
> shout and yell so much now is that it just infuriates me when I see the
> behavior of my neighbors child copied by him.


He's taking his frustration with you out on the world. And you're taking your frustration with the world creating problems for you out on him.

He's tiny and easy to dump on.

Is that what you want to model for him?

Rather than seeing him as the problem, see his behavior as a *reflection* of what's going on in his life. Work on the things that he's reflecting back.

> We had a lot of situations where I felt so bad, because my son got
> icecream and her's didn't


Don't do that. Don't let him have something you know the other boy can't have. Find something they can both have. If you're out and your son wants something, speak quietly to him that it will make his friend sad. *Don't* expect him to shut off the need though! but the more he trusts that he *can* have something at another time -- *and* trust that his need is important to you so you won't go back on the offer as soon as the situation is done -- the less he'll protest. Let him know he can have whatever it is later. If he'd rather have the treat than be with his friend, that's a good indication he's done playing.

> This adds to
> the observation, that my son only asks to go play with my neighbor's son
> when they meet anyway, casually, when they see each other on the spot.


He's 3. That's most likely true. But that doesn't change the fact that he'll keep on seeing him.

Joyce

<semajrak@...>

>>>>>What I also see is that he shows a lot of the behavior of my neighbors 
child. He starts to be noisy in the stairwell. Yesterday he broke a
windwheel his great-grandma gave to him on his 2nd birthday by bashing
it to the ground repeatedly.<<<<<

While he's learning how to be respectful of people and things, be more present with him.  Don't let him be noisy in the stairwell.  Don't blame his noisiness on the neighbour's child.  He's your boy.  Your responsibility.  You are his partner.  Look at and respond to his actions.  Say "Shhh" and help him move along to something more enjoyable for everyone.  

 >>>>>He said that his friend does this stuff.<<<<<

Maybe say "But we don't."  And mean it.  Not in an unkind way, but be clear.   Help him find more fun and productive things to do.  Carry some small fun things in your pocket or in a bag.  Show him, and say "Let's play with this outside!"  Move him toward a more positive way of interacting in the world.  Dwelling on how your neighbour's child behaves won't help you live more peacefully.  Making good choices yourself might help your neighbour learn to do the same.  That has been my experience.  My own positive example has had more influence than my silent resentment ever could.
  
>>>>>They broke a plaything which belongs to his babysister by shoving it
down the stairs (made noise in the stairwell too). He said that it was
something his friend (my neighbors son) suggested.<<<<<

Again, be closer.  Help your son make different choices in these situations.  Show him a more positive experience by playing with him and his friend.  He's still very young.

>>>>>The more he spents time with his friend the more he is
drifting from us.<<<<<

To me, this sounds like you are making your son choose between you and his friend.  He's way too young to have to make that choice.  Make it for him.  Be *with* him while he plays.  Show him he can have both - his friendship with his friend and your support.

>>>>>Or isn't it the other childs behavior? Is it just because my son turned
3 years old now?<<<<< 

I didn't know very much about child development when my son was young.  I found this series of books very enlightening:


These books are not from an unschooling perspective, but they do give the typical developmental stages of various ages of children.  Skimming them helped me to better understand that what I was seeing was something that was very ordinary for my son's age and/or stage of development.  Instead of spinning my thoughts wondering why he was doing what he was doing, I could focus on what was happening and come up with some ideas on how I could help him best.  
   
>>>>>Dealing with my neighbor is complicated because I was raised to please
everyone's opinion so I basically throw myself against myself when I
think of telling her to leave us alone as much as possible. I do not
like to spent time with her. I feel controlled.<<<<<

I understand this, I think, because I was raised similarly.  What I have found to be most helpful, is to be honest with myself and with the person involved.  Not mean.  But honest.  With honesty, relationships evolve more naturally.  Sandra has a list of therapists that understand unschooling. Perhaps that would be something for you to consider looking into:


>>>>>I do not want my son to see more of her sons behavior.<<<<<

Not every person you son meets in life will have his best interest in mind.  Learning how to navigate that is a very useful skill.  This sounds relatively benign place to explore some of that.  

>>>>>We had a lot of situations where I felt so bad, because my son got
icecream and her's didn't (which led to a screaming and crying child, my
son being concernd for his friend, me being unhappy AND hurt by the
noise her son was making), her telling my son (who wanted to share
-unasked!- his candy) to stop sharing (she never told my directly that
her son cannot have any candy from me).<<<<<

If I was out with someone who I knew had an aversion to sweets for whatever reason, or if they didn't have enough money and would be embarrassed by my paying, I would quietly say to my son "Not now.  We'll get an ice cream cone when we leave."  Or something along those lines.  I've done that before.  Sometimes, when he was that age, he would rather have the ice cream cone (or whatever it was) than continue to play.  That was fine.  I politely excused ourselves.  I would not allow my son to eat an ice cream cone in front of a small child who clearly wanted the same but couldn't have one.  I feel like that is setting everyone up to fail.  In those situations I would try to bring snacks that I knew everyone could enjoy together.

>>>>>What started out like a wonderful oppurtunity for a family friendship
has become my personal nightmare.<<<<<

Try to think less in extremes.  Relationships typically fall somewhere between wonderful and nightmarish.  ;-)  Learn to see the good and build on that.  Learn to navigate the more difficult with as much grace and honesty as feels comfortable to you.  In watching you do this, your son will learn skills that will be valuable to him for his lifetime.  

Karen.

Sandra Dodd

I agree with Karen about this:  " I would not allow my son to eat an ice cream cone in front of a small child who clearly wanted the same but couldn't have one."

The other boy was upset for a good reason, caused by the purchase and consumption of something he couldn't have, right in front of him.  Uncool.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Who's "we". Was the plan all agreed on? Why can't the plan change?
-=-It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the decisions you make as "we". -=-

Joyce wrote that.  I wanted to bring a link to go with it.

If you put your child's needs ahead of your own for a while you will find your own life is calmer and more peaceful.  It doesn't seem like it at first, and it goes against tradition, but your message to us was of woe and disaster and destruction—dark and negative.  

If you make sweeter, kinder choices many times a day, you will move into a sweeter, kinder space.  Then your life will not be a maelstrom of horror (if what you described is really the way you feel) but of growing sweetness.

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully should help, especially the part at the bottom about making choices.

http://sandradodd.com/peace/mama is about being a happy mo and that might help, too.

Sandra

awa

Hi!

Thank you all for responding! Your insights help a lot!


Sandra:

-=- If you were to move far from your neighbor, what would be different?
What would be better? -=-

I'd be calmer. I am now, since the neighbors are out of town. My familiy
life has improved and I was able to actually address some issues (that
means thinking and talk with my husband about our son's behavior) and
make changes because I got calmer the instant I knew that they were
going on a trip!
It was a BIG relief to me. It still is. Although I'm stressed about the
day of their return.
I am tense when she is around and I just realized how much this is the
case as they left.

I thought about it some more. I'm stressed because of her many beliefs
of what is right and what is not. There is a lot of negativity, even
when she talks about her son (which makes me sad).


-=- Say her negativity is difficult for you to be around, and you
would rather talk about pleasant things when you're together. -=-

Yes! I'd love to do that, because it is true. I can't bear her
negativity and sometimes her need to justify why she put her son in
Kindergarten. It's just.. we are at a point where we barely have
anything to talk about at all. Mostly she does the talking, so I take
away her negativity I fear there is close to nothing left to say.


-=- Invite the boy over and TELL HIM to be quieter. TELL HIM that if he
wants to play at your house he needs to be softer and gentler. -=-

She comes along with him and I don't really want that. But I talked to
the boy a lot over the past year and he changed since Kindergarten so
that he IS quieter, softer and gentler in my home. I'm okay with him
mostly - just a little uneasy sometimes because his ideas of fun still
involve destruction.


-=- You would still feel like you didn't want to play with your child,
and he would want a playmate. -=-

I do rarely play in a sense of sitting with him for hours to build
blocks or so. But we do a lot of stuff together and I help him with
things he wants to do alone. We do puzzles, we paint, we read and sing a
lot. We dance. He likes to join in when I cook or clean. Today he asked
me to paint his fingernails. We play. He plays with his dad, too.
(I have the benefit of my husband being home on most afternoons)

How important is it to have a friend of the same age? They are so young,
often they don't even play together but side-by-side. Or my son disturbs
the ongoing play by telling his friend to go away (or by taking his
stuff back).
Sometimes it's like "be there but don't be there" with them.


Lisa:

-=- The pattern that you're seeing is children learning how to cope with
being powerless, and controlled, and frustrated. -=-

Yes! More so with my neighbors son, so I guess I fear that my son will
never recover from that experience and that will ruin our relationship.

Thank you for sharing your experience and espacially for this line:

-=- Fury is often fear trying to be strong. Figuring out what you're
afraid of might help you start to understand more clearly what it is
you're reacting to. -=-

I will do that. Thank you so much for giving me a new perspective.


Joyce:

-=- What you're doing is wrapping all the potential contributing factors
and all the issues into one big problem and then looking for one
solution. That's what overthinking is. -=-

Overthinking, yes. My therapist often said this, too. As a child this
was a very important skill to have - now it's causing more trouble than
help.

-=- Be more aware of the times when he's resorting to hitting the
family. What's been going on before? Is the hitting "I'm trying to do
this! I need help! And you're not paying attention!" -=-

You mentioned this and I realized that he mostly hits my husband/his
dad. For attention our out of frustration (it depends or maybe it
doesn't because he is frustrated about the lack of attention?). The
broken toy of his baby sister I mentioned earlier -> happend when he was
outside with his dad and the neighbor's son.
A LOT of this stuff happens when my husband is home. Is it because I
relax but my husband is not that attentive to our son's needs?


-=- While it's understandable since your parenting approaches are very
different, -=-

I guess they are. I came to radical unschooling from the attachment
parenting and continuum concept ideas. But than again my neighbor claims
to live the attachment parenting approach.. I don't know. What she's
doing certainly looks and feels different to me.

That's part of the problem. She is the only one near me with children
more or less the age of my children. I have some friends with kids that
age too but we only meet once a week or less. My friends have (very)
different parenting approach but none of the negativity, so there was
never a problem between us. Even with different approaches we agree
often and our kids get along really well. Another friend left country to
be able to homeschool.


-=- I think you're also blaming her for a problem you don't know how to
solve. -=-

In a way I do.
Mostly I feel very uncomfortable and tense around her. I don't trust
her. I want some distance but living door to door does not provide that.


-=- She'll judge you. Others will judge you. It just means you're not
living your life the way they think is best for them.

It's your family's judgment that counts. Is what you're doing supporting
them in being happy? Would you change to make them unhappy in order to
make someone else happy? -=-

Thank you!
I want my familiy to be peaceful and happy and to trust one another.


-=- > Especially when we return after a busy day when we were out
for adventure and the plan is to eat and rest. <

Who's "we". Was the plan all agreed on? Why can't the plan change?-=-

Sorry, I was not clear. "We" means husband, son, baby-sister and I. So
it's us as a family. Not me the mother as a pluralis maiestatis. If we
plan for something we usually all agree (well, the baby doesn't state
her opinion yet) or -if not possible- seek to find a way that works for
everyone.
A No from our son was and is heard and respected in our home. (I'm glad
I read Liedloff about 3 years ago and read more and more after that)


-=- It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the
decisions you make as "we". -=-

I never do this, which of course you couldn't know. I'm very clear about
which decisions are mine and why. Sorry again for not giving that info.
We try to go for much flexibilty and plans change.
I guess coming home with a tired child that suddenly wants to go play
because he saw his friend (often said friend is already about to go to
bed) at a time when the respective parents are also tired and/or doing
their evening routine and have no interest in hanging out (more) is just
to much for me.


Karen:
Thank you for the book link! I'll look into that.

This helped me, because I *know* that but somehow do not want to
acknowledge it. It's true though and I agree. It is a useful skill.
Maybe one I lack.

-=- Not every person you son meets in life will have his best interest
in mind. Learning how to navigate that is a very useful skill. This
sounds relatively benign place to explore some of that. -=-

This was very soothing, thank you!

-=- Try to think less in extremes. Relationships typically fall
somewhere between wonderful and nightmarish. ;-) Learn to see the good
and build on that. Learn to navigate the more difficult with as much
grace and honesty as feels comfortable to you. In watching you do this,
your son will learn skills that will be valuable to him for his
lifetime. -=-


About the icecream:
Where met in the supermarked and while I considered all of what you
suggested I came to the conclusion not to let her aversion control my
behaviour towards my son. I tried to talk to him, but he got all up in
tears as he did not understand (we always get icecream when we are
shopping and he wants to and my neighbor knows that). I could not do
that to him, neither did it feel right to do that to his friend. I felt
trapped and made a choice. My neighbor could have choosen to buy her son
a cone, too. She does that sometimes so it's not like a
never-going-to-happen-rule. It isn't about money either.

When the boys play outside or at our place I offer other snacks but
there are times all they want is candy. Besides my neighbor has candy at
her home, she just restricts it for her son (he gets some sometimes, I
don't know what it depends upon).


I have some new perspectives now. You all suggested to be more
attentive. I'll take that to heart.

Sandra Dodd

-=-She comes along with him and I don't really want that. But -=-

Offer to babysit.  Offer to keep him when she's going out.

If you tell her she needs to be more positive when you're together, and say you'd like for the boys to get to play more, those two might easily go together.

-=-just a little uneasy sometimes because his ideas of fun still 
involve destruction.-=-

Tell him if he wants to play at your house he needs to NOT be destructive of anything.

-=-Sandra:
Lisa:
Joyce:-=-

Please don't do that.  Address the ideas, address the group, talk about the issues and not the individuals.

Sandra

<plaidpanties666@...>

>> Maybe my son behaves the way he does 
because he is 3 years old (and those stories are true after all!).<<

It's possible that part of the problem is you don't know how to play with a child who needs a lot of Big! Rough! Loud! Active! play. That's an issue for some moms - if you didn't grow up with a lot of rough-and-tumble fun, it can be shocking to deal with a kid who likes a lot of that.  Here's a page of ideas for active things to do with a child:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/

Also, be sure to take him places where he can Be Loud - outside places, most likely ;) don't just send him off to play, though, be prepared to do big loud things with him. Look for ways to make big exciting noises outside - when he finds a way to to make a big noise Inside, suggest bringing it to the park next time - and be sure to do it! Make a list or a special "take to the park" bag especially for that kind of fun.

 At the same time, look for quieter noisy things to do inside - little plastic containers full of things that rattle, for instance. Rice makes a different sound than pennies, or beans, or salt. They also make different kinds of messes ;) so be prepared to clean those up when you open the containers to see what's inside. Put the same sorts of things in bags and see how the sound changes. Get a cheap electronic keyboard and play with the sounds it makes - you might want to get headphones with that! Make an old "telephone" with two cans and some string and talk to each other. Make your own "wind chimes" out of found objects - plastic lids, shells, bent forks... anything you can find.  Blow up balloons and let the air ppppppppppppth out of them for fun - save the squeaking noise you can make with them for the park ;) Try to catch the balloons while the whiz around the apartment. 

If he's hitting things, consider that he might need to exercise the big muscles in his arms and back more - I don't mean right at that moment, but proactively. Play games that let him swing his arms around. Help him find ways and things to climb. Play games where he drags himself along the floor using just his arms. Get lots of soft bits of cloth to wave around and dance with them. Rig a chin-up bar in a doorway for him to pull himself up. He might also enjoy wrestling - do you or your husband wrestle with him? For some kids, the physical stimulation of wrestling is actually really important! Near the bottom of that page I linked - Pat R's sensory activities - includes a lot of "wrestling" type play activities you can do with a young child. 

Plan to do things with his friend, too - organize their time together a bit more, so you aren't just running after them. Find fun things for small active children to do together so they have a reason to want to be with you - you're not just supervising, you're the purveyor of good times. Since you know your son's going to want to play with his friend when you come home from somewhere, Plan for that. Don't just brace yourself to say No, plan your energy and patience around the fact that coming home Means he'll want to play with the neighbor. That might mean less outings for awhile, if you know that doing all that will leave you too tired. It might mean planning to go out in such a way that you come home while the neighbor is in school, and you have a chance to rest before he comes home. The good thing about something that "always happens" is that you get to think ahead. 

>> I like to 
keep to myself, I like being quite.<<

Maybe your son doesn't. I like to keep to myself and be quiet. My stepson is very social, very active, and as a little boy was very loud. Some of that loudness was because he needed more attention and care, but some was that he needed a lot of stimulation. I learned to adapt to that, to set him up to be loud and rough. Some of that involved taking him outside a lot. Some involved finding was to direct his energy with games and activities. And some involved learning to stretch my own boundaries for the sake of someone I cared about. One of the things I learned along the way was that by getting into the spirit of playing loud and energetically, I didn't feel like my boundaries were under attack. It was like I was "pushing back" against the sound and touch and intrusion, creating my own personal space in a fun way, rather than grimly defending my boundaries. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=- Not me the mother as a pluralis maiestatis. If we 
plan for something we usually all agree -=-

A two year old is too young to make a contract.
The agreement of a toddler is not binding.  And even in family meetings with older kids, kids will agree just to get the meeting to end.  Those kinds of agreements are usually the kids and the husband saying "okay" so the mom will stop talking.  

-=--=- It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the 
decisions you make as "we". -=-

-=-I never do this, which of course you couldn't know.-=-

It is extremely common for a mom to come to this discussion or one like it and to state things very clearly when she later denies.  Cut and paste are pretty good witnesses.  Be careful about using "never."  Be careful with "of course."  Be careful denying something you've just done in a discussion with thousands of strangers.  It doesn't hurt any of us at all, but it harms your ability to see and to think clearly, and it harms your integrity.

There is nothing deleted in this cut and paste:
_______

-=- It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the 
decisions you make as "we". -=-

I never do this, which of course you couldn't know. I'm very clear about 
which decisions are mine and why. Sorry again for not giving that info.
We try to go for much flexibilty and plans change.
___________

Who was the "we" then in "we try"?

-=-I guess coming home with a tired child that suddenly wants to go play 
because he saw his friend... is just 
to much for me.-=-

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Sorry I failed to comment on this.  I meant to.

-=--=-I guess coming home with a tired child that suddenly wants to go play 
because he saw his friend... is just 
to much for me.-=--=-

Tired is often relative.  There are times I would rather sleep than do anything else that's presenting itself.  But when a friend of ours showed up from Alaska after we were asleep once (before the days of e-mail or cellphones), we happily jumped up, made food, heard stories, and talked for two hours.

There have been times my husband was really exhausted if someone calls with a problem or needs a rescue, he "suddenly wants" to get up and help them.

Seeing a friend is THE BEST reason to want to go play!

Little children know nothing of the clock or "tomorrow" or "later."  

It will help for parents to learn to live in the moment rather than by the clock, too.  The clock is not sleepy.  The clock is not hungry.  Look at what your real, immediate child needs in the moment, and find ways to adjust your thinking so that it is not always too much for you.  SOMEtimes maybe you can't.  But if you never can feel the obligation or justification to take a breath and do what he wants instead of what you want, then school might be better for them than any sort of homeschooling—especially than unschooling, which is all about living in the immediate now.



Sandra

awa

Hi!


I'm back online. I'm sorry it took so long, as I meant to reply to this:




=== There is nothing deleted in this cut and paste:
_______


-=- It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the
decisions you make as "we". -=-


I never do this, which of course you couldn't know. I'm very clear about
which decisions are mine and why. Sorry again for not giving that info.
We try to go for much flexibilty and plans change.
___________


Who was the "we" then in "we try"? ===




The "we" was "my husband and I" - this was my first and fast answer.
Then I thought: "wow, that's simple. I should have written "my husband
and I" instead of "we" - and then I thought about it some more and deeply.


What hit me, when I read and re-read your post was that I never even
noticed I had written my part the way I clearly did. I was sure that ==
I never do this == (use the "we" for just my opinion) and I was sure
that == I'm very clear about which decisions are mine and why. ==
It was very unsettling to discover that I'm not as clear as I thought.


I grew from this. Thank you for pointing out!




Maybe this needs to be posted seperately:


I have another question since. It's up in my head and I can't quite put
it in the right words just now.
It's about my fear (it occured to me I have one) of ruining my
relationship with my son in various ways..for instance by saying "no".
It's about saying yes. It's about my three year old watching youtube
videos often, regularly and sometimes for over an hour (up to two hours
or more) straight.
First thing we come home: he turns on the tablet for youtube. Often when
he gets up in the morning he goes straight for tablet and youtube. He
doesn't care for eating with me, my husband and his baby-sister. He
misses meals (or eats in front of the tablet). I feel neglected. I fear
he might feel neglected. I try to offer other activities, bring new
toys, play with him. I watch some videos with him (but I honestly cannot
watch for such a long time). He watches songs about dinosaurs or the
alphabet or numbers mostly. All in English, which isn't our native
language. He's learning but I fear that he misses out on learning our
native tongue (German) - which is a strange fear seeing that I grew up
bilingual. And I like to spend my time at the computer.


Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day
watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And
emotionally okay? Should I really not interfere?


Won't it ruin his life when I say yes to everything he wants? With us
being four different people I try to go for balance, but this is really
hard. And sometimes just sucks when the other people's plans are
hindered or rendered impossible. My biggest concern: I breastfeed him
and his little sister. I don't want to. What I want is to finally wean
him. But when he cries for his milk.. I can't take it. To just let him
cry and beg is far beyond me. So he gets "his" milk.
I'm a breastfeeding consultant so I know about him still being within
age and all the benefits. Nevertheless it's wearing me out to nurse two
kids (he's 3 and his sisters first birthday is coming up). And it's
unfair to wean him while continue to nurse his baby-sister. I feel bad
and it's difficult to navigate through this. Maybe somebody here knows
of this dilemma and has insightful advice?

Sandra@...

-=-It was very unsettling to discover that I'm not as clear as I thought.
I grew from this. Thank you for pointing out!-=-

Thank you for coming back and letting us know!

"Unsettling" is good when one has settled in a harmful place. :-)
Clarity is good.
Growth is good!

The person it's most good for is your child. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day 
watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And 
emotionally okay? -=-

Yes.

-=-Should I really not interfere?-=-

"Interfere" isn't a word from the partnership set of words. :-)
What he is doing is learning.  You even told us what he's learning—" He watches songs about dinosaurs or the 
alphabet or numbers mostly. All in English, which isn't our native 
language."

Your e-mail address suggests that you live in Germany.
If he lives in Germany, how could he miss out on learning German!?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Won't it ruin his life when I say yes to everything he wants?-=-

ARE you saying yes to everything he wants?  WHY?
Avoiding arbitrary and reactionary "no" is good.
Saying yes more than no is good.
Do you believe somehow that someone has required you to "say yes to everything he wants"?
Do you think it's "the rule" for unschoolers?


-=-With us being four different people I try to go for balance, but this is really 
hard. And sometimes just sucks when the other people's plans are 
hindered or rendered impossible.-=-

An example is better than an extreme statement.  We could give you ideas about an example.


-=-My biggest concern: I breastfeed him 
and his little sister. I don't want to. What I want is to finally wean 
him. But when he cries for his milk.. I can't take it. To just let him 
cry and beg is far beyond me. So he gets "his" milk.-=-

Your husband could take him for a walk in a backpack or a stroller to help him get to sleep, or drive him around, at the time he would ordinarily have nursed to sleep.  You could offer him really fun and exciting drinks in a sippy cup during the day when he might have wanted to nurse—milkshake, chocolate milk, something he likes.

-=- And it's unfair to wean him while continue to nurse his baby-sister. -=-

Perhaps it's unfair to his sister for you to continue to nurse him with her baby milk, and to spend time with him that she probably needs more than he does.

It is NOT unfair to nurse a baby as though she were the only baby you have.

-=-I breastfeed him and his little sister. I don't want to. -=-

If you, as the mother, and as a breastfeeding consultant, have the strong feeling that you don't want to, then stop.
Stop gently and compassionately, but it won't take long if you have a plan and he's always supported.

I bought Kirby off on his third birthday with a ninja turtle costume he wanted.  It's not my happiest memory, but nursing him while I was nursing Marty was VERY hard for me, physically and emotionally.  It wasn't good for Marty, either, who was six months old.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 15, 2014, at 11:40 AM, awa claire_oberon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> It's about my three year old watching youtube
> videos often, regularly and sometimes for over an hour (up to two hours
> or more) straight.

If you're not available for him, if you're not bringing other opportunities into his life, then he would choose the least boring thing he's able to do himself.

Choosing just one thing isn't an indication of failure to provide other things. A failure to provide other things can *look* like choosing just one easy least-boring thing.

So block the iPad from your vision and look at your son. If there were a variety of things beyond that block, would you be worrying?

Don't put the burden of proof that you're provide enough on him. Don't make your judgement depend on him choosing something other than the iPad.

> I watch some videos with him (but I honestly cannot
> watch for such a long time).

Do you know enough about what he's doing that you can share his delight when he shows you something?

It won't take 2 hours of the same game to get to know what he finds delightful and annoying. Sit with him because you *want* to, not because you're supposed to. Sit with him to get to know him through his interests. Sit with him because he enjoys your company and you enjoy his.

> He's learning but I fear that he misses out on learning our
> native tongue (German)


Have you stopped speaking German to him? His primary source for language will be you. It's what he'll use when he needs something.

Right now it's what he's watching that's so appealing and understanding English is just one of the hoops between him and what he loves.. If he had to stand on his head to watch them, that's what he'd do. But would you fear he'd never stand on his feet?

> Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day
> watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And
> emotionally okay? Should I really not interfere?


Where is this fear coming from? Do you see physical signs? Or is it from the voices in your head whispering that your a bad mommy? What are *those* voices based on? If those voices are based on truth then when radical unschoolers say it's okay, doesn't that mean they're putting radical unschooling ahead of their child's health? That we don't care that we've let our kids ruing their eyes and health? Do you think that might be true? Or is it more likely the fearful voices are just based on nothing more than fear of the unknown?

> Won't it ruin his life when I say yes to everything he wants?


Probably. And ruin other people's lives too.

It will also ruin his life to say no arbitrarily in order to not always saying yes.

Don't look for rules. Look for principles. The principle is to help him meet his needs. He depends on you. He's powerless. You're knowledgeable and powerful. Be his power. But don't hand it over to him blindly and unquestioningly. He doesn't want to hurt people. But he's tiny and knows little about the world. He needs you to be his better. Help him reach what he's trying to reach. Help him out if he's doing it in a way that's unsafe or dangerous or hurtful to others. He doesn't need to be taught better ways. He needs to see better ways so he can learn.

> And sometimes just sucks when the other people's plans are
> hindered or rendered impossible.


He's little. He's going to ask unreasonable thing because he can only see the direct path between him and what he things will fill the hole in him.

Think outside the box. Find solutions that take others into account.

It will probably help to post a time or two when you supported him but at other's expense. Then people can suggest practical ways to put the principles into practice.

> What I want is to finally wean
> him. But when he cries for his milk.. I can't take it.


Nor can he. And he's far more helpless in the world.

I'm sure others will have some practical ideas on what they started offering to give him other choices besides just the breast. But the less you focus on weaning him, the less you focus on needing him to make a different choice, the sooner he'll be able to move on. The more you pressure him to let go, the tighter and longer he'll hold on.

Joyce

plaidpanties666@...

>>Won't it ruin his life when I say yes to everything he wants? <<

No matter how hard you try, you will never be able to say yes to everything he wants. Every. It's not possible. Sometimes he'll want the day to be longer. Sometimes he'll want to be a grown up Right Now or be a little boy forever. Sometimes he'll want rain when there's not a cloud in the sky, or a parade to march down the street when none is scheduled for months. Life is full of disappointments - so many that it's not necessary to add a single one for kids to learn about the downside of living. What we can do is help kids experience disappointments within a context of optimism, abundance, and support. We can see the real limits in life as opportunities to offer compassion and solve problems together. We can help our kids move through life thoughtfully and creatively by becoming more thoughtful and creative, ourselves. 

>> My biggest concern: I breastfeed him 
and his little sister. I don't want to. What I want is to finally wean 
him. But when he cries for his milk.. I can't take it. To just let him 
cry and beg is far beyond me.<<

What would you do if you were physically unable to breastfeed - say for health reasons? Would you still expect to be able to say "no more" and have your child be okay with that? A young child wouldn't understand no matter what the reason. 

Mental health is still health. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, I'm saying to step back a little and think about the problem from another angle. If it's really hurting you, stop. But think about what that means - it means you'll have a very young child who's going to need a lot of extra care because all of a sudden he can't nurse. So if you're going to do that, plan for it.
 
>>sometimes for over an hour (up to two hours 
or more) straight<<

Two hours isn't very long. There's a modern, schoolish idea that little kids have short attention spans, but well over a century ago Maria Montessori documented that young children who are doing things they've chosen to do will often do them in large blocks of time - two hours is pretty normal. And kids at home, not being shuffled from one thing to the next, have the luxury to really get into something and do it for hours. That's a tremendous gift. 

>> I feel neglected. I fear 
he might feel neglected.<<

It's entirely possible he's not very social. That can be hard on moms. My daughter's an intense introvert and has been from birth. She never made eye contact as a baby, never had much interest in people in general or me, her mother, as more than a source of boobs and basic care. Her second word was "self". Had I expected a baby who cuddled and cooed and loved me to pieces, I might have been pretty heartbroken - because I didn't really get any of that on an overt level from Morgan until she was considerably older. It's possible something like that is going on with your son - he's not wired in such a way that connecting with you is a priority. It's even possible that the ways you want to connect are so unnatural for him that he'd rather watch videos - because with a video the only way you can interact with him is side-by-side, rather than face to face. If that's true, then it makes sense that he won't want to eat with other people, won't like to play with you, won't do a lot of interactive things - because you don't interact the right way, from his point of view. It's something to watch for and experiment with. When he's not watching videos, be careful how you interact - try being more to his side rather than face to face. Watch and listen and don't say much. 

---Meredith


Stacey Valnes

Hi Claire - the short and simple answer is usually the best….stop breastfeeding him if this what you want.  

You're son will be fine in all aspects if you support his interests.  The only control that is good is self control.  Let go of everything else.  Worrying is a waste of time.  You're son is perfect just as he is.  Life in his light, not his shadow.

Of my four young kids, my 5 year old boy is the only one not to make me something for daddy's day (really children's day).  He's obsessed with minecraft and watches youtube videos constantly.  I love that he didn't make me something.  He didn't feel pressured by his siblings to do something he didn't want to do, just to do it.  I love this kind of independence.  My son is happy and he adores me and this is all I can ask for.

Stacey Valnes
A Beginner at Unschooling (but learning so much about freedom and how it good it feels when you give up all control)



On Jun 15, 2014, at 8:40 AM, awa claire_oberon@... [AlwaysLearning] wrote:

 

Hi!

I'm back online. I'm sorry it took so long, as I meant to reply to this:

=== There is nothing deleted in this cut and paste:
_______

-=- It will help now and in the future to let go of labeling the
decisions you make as "we". -=-

I never do this, which of course you couldn't know. I'm very clear about
which decisions are mine and why. Sorry again for not giving that info.
We try to go for much flexibilty and plans change.
___________

Who was the "we" then in "we try"? ===

The "we" was "my husband and I" - this was my first and fast answer.
Then I thought: "wow, that's simple. I should have written "my husband
and I" instead of "we" - and then I thought about it some more and deeply.

What hit me, when I read and re-read your post was that I never even
noticed I had written my part the way I clearly did. I was sure that ==
I never do this == (use the "we" for just my opinion) and I was sure
that == I'm very clear about which decisions are mine and why. ==
It was very unsettling to discover that I'm not as clear as I thought.

I grew from this. Thank you for pointing out!

Maybe this needs to be posted seperately:

I have another question since. It's up in my head and I can't quite put
it in the right words just now.
It's about my fear (it occured to me I have one) of ruining my
relationship with my son in various ways..for instance by saying "no".
It's about saying yes. It's about my three year old watching youtube
videos often, regularly and sometimes for over an hour (up to two hours
or more) straight.
First thing we come home: he turns on the tablet for youtube. Often when
he gets up in the morning he goes straight for tablet and youtube. He
doesn't care for eating with me, my husband and his baby-sister. He
misses meals (or eats in front of the tablet). I feel neglected. I fear
he might feel neglected. I try to offer other activities, bring new
toys, play with him. I watch some videos with him (but I honestly cannot
watch for such a long time). He watches songs about dinosaurs or the
alphabet or numbers mostly. All in English, which isn't our native
language. He's learning but I fear that he misses out on learning our
native tongue (German) - which is a strange fear seeing that I grew up
bilingual. And I like to spend my time at the computer.

Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day
watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And
emotionally okay? Should I really not interfere?

Won't it ruin his life when I say yes to everything he wants? With us
being four different people I try to go for balance, but this is really
hard. And sometimes just sucks when the other people's plans are
hindered or rendered impossible. My biggest concern: I breastfeed him
and his little sister. I don't want to. What I want is to finally wean
him. But when he cries for his milk.. I can't take it. To just let him
cry and beg is far beyond me. So he gets "his" milk.
I'm a breastfeeding consultant so I know about him still being within
age and all the benefits. Nevertheless it's wearing me out to nurse two
kids (he's 3 and his sisters first birthday is coming up). And it's
unfair to wean him while continue to nurse his baby-sister. I feel bad
and it's difficult to navigate through this. Maybe somebody here knows
of this dilemma and has insightful advice?


Sandra Dodd

-=-Hi Claire - the short and simple answer is usually the best-=-

The short and simple answer is probably "no," and that's not usually best for people moving toward understanding unschooling better.

It's much better to think about options, choices, than "answers."
It's better to think about "better" than "best," too.  

This was sent by someone who closed with "A Beginner at Unschooling..."

The bad thing about these things is that they are fluff.  "Support."  They might not be true, and they're not very useful.

-=-You're son will be fine in all aspects if you support his interests.  The only control that is good is self control.  Let go of everything else.  Worrying is a waste of time.  You're son is perfect just as he is.  Life in his light, not his shadow.-=-

Self control is still control, and isn't nearly as good as moving toward making mindful choices many times a day.


We don't know that her son is perfect, or will be fine.  We don't know if life is his light. He might be in a bad situation.  If no parent ever worried, there would be no need whatsoever for a discussion like this one.   We aren't trying to keep people worried—we're helping them NOT worry.  But to say that worrying is a waste of time, flat out as though words create truth, worries me in the context of this discussion. :-)

If worrying is a waste of time, we could just all put our kids in school, and never worry about anything.
Sometimes something happens that is unsettling, and from that (probably slight)agitation comes the impetus to make a decision.  Change can be pretty wonderful.  Sometimes there is a bit of worry before a big change.


I was surprised to see such a long list of support-messages from a dad.  Usually it's moms who do that.  Sorry to be sexist about it, but let's all avoid those positive statements that aren't really helpful.

I might add a couple of them to my collection here, even though the images show them coming from moms.


Sandra

awa

=== Choosing just one thing isn't an indication of failure to provide
other things. A failure to provide other things can *look* like choosing
just one easy least-boring thing.


So block the iPad from your vision and look at your son. If there were a
variety of things beyond that block, would you be worrying?


Don't put the burden of proof that you're provide enough on him. Don't
make your judgement depend on him choosing something other than the
iPad. ===


I don't *know* if I provide enough, I don't know how things look from
his point of view and he is not verbal about it. I want some proof that
I provide enough other things. But I don't know where to get that from.
I'm worried because we used to do stuff together but it got less and
less.. he wants to do his own stuff now, sometimes he asks me to join
(yay!). I think he is quite happy. Maybe I worry to much. Maybe I expect
to much or see myself in a bad light? Like not living up to some fuzzy
expectations I think others may have about me?


I'm an introvert (up to not leaving the house at all until we ran out of
food and cash to pay for a delivery - this was before I had kids). I'm
not good at smaltalk and I avoid some settings which I deem difficult to
handle for me. It got better with my kids being around, but still it's
not easy. I'm not the outgoing kind of person.
At home I was the "invisible child" - keeping to myself, no siblings
around, parents who had no time to play with me (but they were home at
least half of the day).
So that's why I want a close relationship with my kids. I want to get to
know them, to be friends. I kind of feel rejected if my son goes out to
play with his friend (the neighbors kid, I worte about at the very first
post) or does stuff without me. At the same time I kind of want to keep
to myself, so doing stuff without me comes in quite handy.


It leaves me clueless how to navigate and validate for myself that I am
providing enough. I don't even know what "enough" would be.
But he is not alone, I am attentive and I care for him and we do stuff
together. He seems happy most of the time, so maybe it's okay as it is.




=== Do you know enough about what he's doing that you can share his
delight when he shows you something?


It won't take 2 hours of the same game to get to know what he finds
delightful and annoying. Sit with him because you *want* to, not because
you're supposed to. Sit with him to get to know him through his
interests. Sit with him because he enjoys your company and you enjoy his.===


Yes, we do find cool delightful stuff together. I want to get to know
his interests and I want to support him. I think I could be even more
there - I'm working on this.




=== Where is this fear coming from? Do you see physical signs? Or is it
from the voices in your head whispering that your a bad mommy? What are
*those* voices based on? If those voices are based on truth then when
radical unschoolers say it's okay, doesn't that mean they're putting
radical unschooling ahead of their child's health? That we don't care
that we've let our kids ruing their eyes and health? Do you think that
might be true? Or is it more likely the fearful voices are just based on
nothing more than fear of the unknown? ===


There's not anyone near me who lets their children watch tv or youtube
"freely" - most people are really restrictive about it. Our pediatrician
was surprised to hear that my son watches tv at all. He made it clear,
that if there is tv/youtube (and I think all screens involved) no more
than 30min daily was appropriate for a child this young.


I've never met a child (or an adult) who wasn't restricted (tv and
otherwise). It's fear of the unknown. I need to trust more and fear less.
It is fuzzy! My own childhood experience was that I returned a TV (given
to me by my parents) some time (years?) later because I ended up not
using it. Didn't own a TV since (but used computers a lot and I still
enjoy to do that!).


=== -=-Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day
watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And
emotionally okay? -=-


Yes. ===


This was what I needed to hear :) I took a deep breath and it helped
relax a bit.




=== It will probably help to post a time or two when you supported him
but at other's expense. Then people can suggest practical ways to put
the principles into practice. ===


He wants to go visit his friend (right next door, same building) and
there is A LOT of back-and-forth, meaning he leaves our home, knocks on
their door, gets in, comes back after a few seconds (sometimes minutes),
leaves our home... and so on. As if he can't decide where to stay. I'm
okay with this for a few repeats but I don't want him to disturb the
family life next door so much. So after some back and forth I tell him
to either stay there or stay with us. Doesn't work so well. I try to
explain that they have dinner and bedtime. He doesn't seem to get it. I
do tell my son, that he can hang out with his friend the next day again.
But often he doesn't grab this either.
Yesterday I finally told him to go one more time, tell his friend
goodnight then come back and stay with us for the rest of the evening.
That worked (I was surprised).


I like to not bother people by noise or constant interruption of their
activities. Especially in the evenings or early morning. I like my kids
to understand, that there are times visiting is inappropriate.

awa

=== Where is this fear coming from? Do you see physical signs? ===

I forgot to add this: I see physical signs as in him being sleep
deprived. His eyes get red and he rubs them minute after minute but he
won't go to bed. I'd say "let's lie down" or offer to read or sing to
him or just say that I'm going to lie down a bit. He's not interested.

He wakes up tired. With dark circles around his eyes.

This is not ALL the time but it happens. It happened a lot lately.

Robyn Coburn

I hear that you want to stop breastfeeding your son because it is exhausting you, and that you are a breastfeeding consultant. Suppose a client came to you and was tandem nursing with the same difficulties but *wanted* to continue. What strategies would you suggest to her to make it easier? More food, more water, more rest, staggered schedule? Perhaps you could try those in the interim.

When Jayn was young her needs were so easy to meet. Saying yes to all that I could do was easy. As she grew older her needs became harder - more expensive, more complicated, requiring a lot more effort - life provided plenty enough "no" especially when we had a very tough financial patch a few years ago. Saying yes to what I could was important.

But she weathered the time of lack. Now at 14 she's pretty neat, not super demanding and very grateful for all she has.

I would encourage you to take his meal to him, AND to take at least some of your meals to where he is too. If most, or just many, of your interactions are you trying to entice him away from something he is loving, then it may not be long before he starts to dread seeing you approach him.

You say he runs to the iPad when he gets home. It's a portable device. Perhaps he could take it with him, at least some of the time.

It's hard to home school in Germany. I hope you are able to find away around the legal limitations and do so when the time comes.

Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
Creativity Blast http://IggyJingles.com
Design Team http://scraPerfect.com

Sharkeydawn

I am tandem nursing my 4 year old and my two year old (19 month age gap).

A bit over a year ago my cycle returned and with it came nursing aversion. It was much worse than during pregnancy and mostly in relation to my eldest child.

I found cutting down caffeine and keeping hydrated and well fed helped. It didn't cure it though and it continued to get worse. 

I had plenty of fun snacks and drinks around to offer when I anticipated he might wish to nurse (Ice lollies particularly) . I would keep in mind a distraction or two (a forgotten toy or recorded tv programme). I tried to avoid him falling asleep during the day as this led to lots of nursing requests.

Early in the aversion I stopped feeding them simultaneously. 

I saw that his need to nurse was both nutritional and psychological.

From a nutrition/ hunger point of view I tried to avoid him getting too hungry. Monkey platters helped greatly. As we cut down his appetite increased a lot.

From a psychological point of view I tried to find other ways to connect and fill his cup. Nursing was a quick fix for so many things. I found new ways to hold and stroke him that helped him relax. Together we gained a new vocabulary that communicated our love as nursing had.  
We played games that emphasised connection (dramatic hide and seek or tickle fights or I would pretend to be upset and he sooth me. Playful parenting is good for ideas.)

I found some parts of my cycle harder and would anticipate these and plan accordingly.

When he really wanted milk and I was finding it hard we would nurse till I counted to ten. Then I would joyfully ask him to stop so I could cuddle him and would wrap my arms around him and shower him with kisses and sweet words. 

It has been tough on us both. He still nurses but for only a few sucks each day. I had always thought I would let him self wean but I hadn't anticipated the horrid negative feelings nursing aversion would invoke. 

I continue to nurse his sister frequently and he seems to understand that as the "baby" she needs this. However I don't really enjoy that now and wonder if it would be easier had I acted upon my nursing aversion quicker instead of struggling on. 

It is hard to reduce or stop breastfeeding. But it is not good to continue if it is damaging the relationship with the child. If you are feeling resentful that is a sign that the nursing is no longer helpful. 

Often a child uses nursing to initiate closeness. If nursing is actually pushing you away you need to help them find other ways to be close to you. 


Sent from my iPhone

On 16 Jun 2014, at 19:09, "Robyn Coburn dezignarob@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I hear that you want to stop breastfeeding your son because it is exhausting you, and that you are a breastfeeding consultant. Suppose a client came to you and was tandem nursing with the same difficulties but *wanted* to continue. What strategies would you suggest to her to make it easier? More food, more water, more rest, staggered schedule? Perhaps you could try those in the interim.

When Jayn was young her needs were so easy to meet. Saying yes to all that I could do was easy. As she grew older her needs became harder - more expensive, more complicated, requiring a lot more effort - life provided plenty enough "no" especially when we had a very tough financial patch a few years ago. Saying yes to what I could was important.

But she weathered the time of lack. Now at 14 she's pretty neat, not super demanding and very grateful for all she has.

I would encourage you to take his meal to him, AND to take at least some of your meals to where he is too. If most, or just many, of your interactions are you trying to entice him away from something he is loving, then it may not be long before he starts to dread seeing you approach him.

You say he runs to the iPad when he gets home. It's a portable device. Perhaps he could take it with him, at least some of the time.

It's hard to home school in Germany. I hope you are able to find away around the legal limitations and do so when the time comes.

Robyn Coburn
Résumé Review http://WorkInProduction.com
Creativity Blast http://IggyJingles.com
Design Team http://scraPerfect.com

Joyce Fetteroll


On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:03 PM, awa claire_oberon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

I see physical signs as in him being sleep 
deprived. His eyes get red and he rubs them minute after minute but he 
won't go to bed. I'd say "let's lie down" or offer to read or sing to 
him or just say that I'm going to lie down a bit. He's not interested.

Is that the behavior of someone who is choosing an activity just because it's he least boring? Would a least boring activity be worth giving sleep up for?

What if he were working on the process to turn sea water into renewable energy and he was *this* close?

What if he were a lawyer working long long hours to save his innocent client's life?

What if he were a father with a sick child who needed he nearby for several days in a row?

Would any of them say "Sure!" if someone asked them to lie down? Even if their answer were, "Just one more minute," wouldn't it likely really be several more hours?

He's doing the 3 yo equivalent of passionately working on a challenging problem.

How about taking the iPad to bed with him. If he lays down with it, he's more likely to fall asleep than if he has to stop playing to go to boring old bed.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-How about taking the iPad to bed with him. If he lays down with it, he's more likely to fall asleep than if he has to stop playing to go to boring old bed.-=-

This stand is amazing.  I have used it every day since I got mine and have given several away.

You can be watching a movie, and lie down and turn it sideways.  It amplifies (if the speaker end is stuck in there).

I've used one in the bed lots.
It comes in green and blue, too.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=- I had always thought I would let him self wean but I hadn't anticipated the horrid negative feelings nursing aversion would invoke. -=-

Something as powerful asn an overwhelming revulsion about doing something biological should be more important than what a book says.

I've seen moms cry while nursing because they thought they should, even though the child was older and they felt a strong aversion-to-revulsion when the older child latched on.  It was that way with me and Kirby, after Marty was born.  I wanted to continue, and did for six months, but it was hard on all three of us and my duty should have been to Marty.  

I'm better at listening to my own body now than I was then.

Some can tandem nurse without that.  Those who can't should not cry and suffer and make the older child feel/know he's hurting his mother. There's not much use in that.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- I want some proof that I provide enough other things-=-

There will be people who would sell you that proof. :-)  And some snake oil and elixer of life.

Look at other relationships in your life that you're more familiar with. Do you want proof that you're being a good enough daughter?  Wife?  Friend?  Look for evidence, not "proof."  And if you hae the feeling that you're not doing enough, that feeling might be evidence.

-=-he wants to do his own stuff now, sometimes he asks me to join (yay!). I think he is quite happy. -=-

Someday he will move away.  Don't hold children back.  If he's quite happy, don't rock the boat.  Do intereting things yourself. Side-by-side play in toddlers can be a good model for being around other, older people, too!  :-)  If you're in the room and he's in the room, you're available to answer questions or to notice if he's happily excited, or frustrated.  That's quite a bit of presence!

-=- I kind of feel rejected if my son goes out to play with his friend (the neighbors kid, I worte about at the very first 
post) or does stuff without me. -=-

I hope you're moving through that.  It doesn't sound healthy for either of you.  

-=- I don't even know what "enough" would be.
But he is not alone, I am attentive and I care for him and we do stuff 
together. He seems happy most of the time, so maybe it's okay as it is.
-=-

It sounds good!

-=-I've never met a child (or an adult) who wasn't restricted (tv and 
otherwise). It's fear of the unknown. I need to trust more and fear less.
It is fuzzy! My own childhood experience was that I returned a TV (given 
to me by my parents) some time (years?) later because I ended up not 
using it. Didn't own a TV since (but used computers a lot and I still 
enjoy to do that!).-=-

You're looking all around—at the past, at strangers, at what doctors repeat from what they read.
Look at learning. Look at your child and what he's taking in and enjoying.

-=-=== -=-Is it really okay for a child this young to spend so many hours a day
watching videos? I mean physically okay for his eyes and his brain. And
emotionally okay? -=-
(I wrote:)  -=-Yes. ===
This was what I needed to hear :) I took a deep breath and it helped 
relax a bit.-=-

Next time, read here:  http://sandradodd.com/tv
Read a little.  Try a little...

-=- So after some back and forth I tell him 
to either stay there or stay with us. Doesn't work so well-=-

Can you invite the other child over?

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 16, 2014, at 12:02 PM, awa claire_oberon@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't *know* if I provide enough, I don't know how things look from
> his point of view and he is not verbal about it.

He communicates in other ways. His tone. His laughter. His sadness. His body language. His actions. His reactions. His choices.

You're getting frustrated that he doesn't speak your language. Get to know *his* language.

And don't take his communication as a reflection of you. If he's sad it doesn't mean you've been a bad mommy. It means he's sad. *Don't make is about you. Make it about him!* Take his communication as an indication of what's going on inside of him. *Use* that information to make choices. Why is he sad? What does he like when he's sad for similar reasons? (Not all sadness is the same!) Try things. Fix what you can fix. Cuddle. Do something else with him. Get snacks together. Use his reactions as more information to make even better choices.


> I want some proof that
> I provide enough other things.

There isn't proof. There are clues. There is mounting evidence that one thing is more likely true than another. Right now you've got blinders on. You're only seeing what your yardstick measures: when he does things you suggest. You're ignoring all the others clues he's showing you.

You can grow greater confidence that what he's doing is normal by reading what other unschoolers have seen is normal. But your son is who will tell you -- in the non-verbal language of a 3 yo -- what is right and good *for him*.

> I'm worried because we used to do stuff together but it got less and
> less..

Did you worry when breastfeeding got less and less?

You're judging what's working by the yardstick of "him doing the activities you suggested." But every day he's a different person than he was the day before. That yardstick doesn't work for the new person he is. Find new ways of judging his happiness.

> he wants to do his own stuff now, sometimes he asks me to join
> (yay!). I think he is quite happy. Maybe I worry to much. Maybe I expect
> to much or see myself in a bad light? Like not living up to some fuzzy
> expectations I think others may have about me?

What about using your son's vision of you rather than other people's? Isn't he the one whose opinion on how good of a mother you're being that counts?

What does his body language say? Does he have things he loves so much that he forgoes sleep for them, for instance? ;-)

> I'm an introvert (up to not leaving the house at all until we ran out of
> food and cash to pay for a delivery - this was before I had kids). I'm
> not good at smaltalk and I avoid some settings which I deem difficult to
> handle for me. It got better with my kids being around, but still it's
> not easy.

*Everyone* has parts of unschooling that are hard for them. Different people find different parts difficult. But they're handicaps not unremovable shackles. You *will* have to work harder than an extrovert to get out. (Assuming your kids do want to get out.) But you won't have to work as hard as an extrovert will to stay home with her introverted kids! ;-)

Ask. Ask people on the list what has worked for them.


> So that's why I want a close relationship with my kids. I want to get to
> know them, to be friends. I kind of feel rejected if my son goes out to
> play with his friend (the neighbors kid, I worte about at the very first
> post) or does stuff without me. At the same time I kind of want to keep
> to myself, so doing stuff without me comes in quite handy.

There's a big clue there. You're making choices in reaction to your past. You're looking at your past then trying to do the opposite. You're trying to parent the child you were instead of the child you have.

Instead of looking at what you needed as a child, look at your son and what he needs.

Because what you really needed as a child *wasn't* parents who gave you everything a child could want. It was parents who listened *to you* and to your needs.

> I want to get to know
> his interests and I want to support him. I think I could be even more
> there - I'm working on this.

If you use "get to know his interests" as a rule, you'll be disappointed if he gets grumpy that you're with him too much!

It's connecting when we find other people who share our interests. It's connecting to share what we love and have someone be happy for us. It's connecting when someone's happy because we're happy and have things we love. :-)

It's disconnecting if you decide what connecting must look like but it's not what feels connecting to your son.

Yes, this is confusing! We're all grown up with depending on rules to tell us how to live our lives. Read with your kids 30 minutes a day. Brush your teeth after every meal. Don't let your kids drink sodas.

But all of that is looking at rules, then trying to get kids to conform to the rules. That doesn't work for unschooling! In fact it doesn't work well for any relationships. For those stuck not knowing where to begin, perhaps begin with a common rule but then use the other person's reactions as feedback on what they like and what they don't like. Then forget the rule and make adjustments from there.

> There's not anyone near me who lets their children watch tv or youtube
> "freely" - most people are really restrictive about it.

That is another obstacle. But again, not an unremovable shackle. You won't have the ability they do to turn to neighbors for examples and advice. It means finding people who live far from you to see what supporting kids choices looks like, how it works, what the pitfalls are and so on.


> Our pediatrician
> was surprised to hear that my son watches tv at all. He made it clear,
> that if there is tv/youtube (and I think all screens involved) no more
> than 30min daily was appropriate for a child this young.

And physicians once advertised cigarettes.

That doesn't mean everything doctors say is full of crap. It means give more weight to what they say about a the flu than they do about parenting. Their parenting advice is likely to be very mainstream. Their words feel like they carry more weight when a doctor says it. But doctors didn't spend 8+ years learning about parenting in college.

When talking to doctors, give happy but vague answers. They're all meaning but in terms of parenting outside the mainstream not likely to be more helpful than your next door neighbor.


> My own childhood experience was that I returned a TV (given
> to me by my parents) some time (years?) later because I ended up not
> using it. Didn't own a TV since (but used computers a lot and I still
> enjoy to do that!).


Which says more about you, your needs, your personality than it does about TV. You got to *choose*. Your letting your child choose then worrying about his choices. I'm assuming your parents didn't wring their hands when you returned the TV.


> As if he can't decide where to stay. I'm
> okay with this for a few repeats but I don't want him to disturb the
> family life next door so much. So after some back and forth I tell him
> to either stay there or stay with us. Doesn't work so well. I try to
> explain that they have dinner and bedtime. He doesn't seem to get it. I
> do tell my son, that he can hang out with his friend the next day again.
> But often he doesn't grab this either.

He's 3. Don't expect him to understand as an adult. Don't expect him to change his feelings just because you tell him (in essence) they're wrong or impractical. (In fact that doesn't work with anyone, regardless of age!) Do give him information! But expect that for right now he doesn't feel that he has *any* control over his feelings.

He *will* have wants and needs that disturb others. It's up to you to help him meet the need in a way that doesn't step on others toes. *OR* find a substitute! If he wants a picnic and its raining you accept that he's disappoint and may need to grieve for a bit. But you'd also find something else to do. *Not* to fix him! Don't see his sadness as anything other than about him. It's not yours not fix. But do focus on making some changes in the environment so that he has a better situation to be sad in. (Which might mean cuddling. Or doing something fun. *Don't* take on his sadness. Be understanding that it's *normal* to be disappointed and sad. Then tweak the situation.)

If he wants to visit the neighbors, you can say "They're having dinner. Let's do that new game on the iPad." Or "Can you help me make something special for Daddy for dinner?" "Having dinner," is the information you're basing your response on. Don't expect that he'll get that in the same way that you do. But the more you respond with choices and support rather than feeling bad that he feels bad, the more help you can be.

Joyce