catfish_friend

My 5 year old daughter, looks up to bigger girls and emulates them. When we hang out with one 7 year old homeschooling girl, it's great because this 7 year old is considerate and kind and thoughtful. They can play for long stretches (5-6 hours sometimes) without conflict and having tons of fun.

We have been deschooling for a little over a month and have become involved with local homeschoolers in the area. There is a girl, almost 6, that my 5 year old looks up to, but this girl is often doing things I consider unsafe or disrespectful. I had hosted a homeschooling baking party so that we could meet homeschoolers that shared my daughter's interests and this 6 year old came. She is bold and independent and she was pulling things out of kitchen drawers because she saw my daughter do it. She later was found cutting plants outside in our yard and was told on by another homeschooler about the same age. At a more recent event, this 6 year old was hurting a younger boy, and damaging plants at another homeschooler's house and shouting "Boring!" about the activities going on (it was a workshop). My daughter grew up gardening, and would not purposely harm a plant but in this context, she was pulling healthy leaves off of plants and also yelling, "Boring!" One time with the 7 year old, who was also pulling green leaves off of palms, my 5 year old followed suit.



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catfish_friend

Oops -- trigger finger. Finished post below. Edit this top part out for the list, please.

Thanks!
Ceci

Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone

On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:58 AM, catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:

> My 5 year old daughter, looks up to bigger kids and emulates them. When we hang out with one 7 year old homeschooling girl, it's great because this 7 year old is considerate and kind and thoughtful. They can play for long stretches (5-6 hours sometimes) without conflict and have tons of fun.
>
> We have been deschooling for a little over a month and have become involved with local homeschoolers in the area. There is a girl, almost 6, that my 5 year old looks up to, but this girl is often doing things I consider unsafe or disrespectful. I had hosted a homeschooling baking party so that we could meet homeschoolers that shared my daughter's interests and this 6 year old came. She is bold and independent and she was pulling things out of kitchen drawers because she saw my daughter do it. She later was found cutting plants outside in our yard with scissors (I have no idea where she found them -- maybe she pulled them out of the kitchen drawer?!) and was told on by another homeschooler about the same age. At a more recent event, this 6 year old was hurting a younger boy, and damaging plants at another homeschooler's house and shouting "Boring!" about the activities going on (it was an outdoor workshop). My daughter grew up gardening, and would not purposely harm a plant but in this context, she was pulling healthy leaves off of plants and also yelling, "Boring!" One time with the 7 year old, who was also pulling green leaves off of palms, my 5 year old followed suit.

I spoke with the 6 year old about us needing safety with bodies and showing respect by not damaging the plants. I spoke with her because her mother was not around. This seems to often be the case when I see this 6 year old (the mother has a toddler, too). As far as I know, this girl (and others in the group) have been there much longer than me, and seem pretty familiar with each other.

I spoke later to my 5 year old about her hurting the plants like the 6 year old did, and also like the 7 year old and asked her why she thought she did those things since she knows how to care for plants. My 5 year old's response, "I don't know."

We talked about friends and who she enjoyed being with and she mentioned that her 7 year old friend was who she liked being with the most, but that me, her dad and little sister were her best friends.

That last part comforted me, but I wonder how do I respond to situations where I see her bigger friends (who she emulates) do things that are disrespectful or unsafe? There definitely seems to be some need on my daughter's part to conform or to be accepted by her peers or maybe just try out what her friends are trying out, but this is a relatively new situation for me and I feel muddy about how I'm dealing with it. The added complication is that the 6 year old's mom is not staying close to her 6 year old. Without knowing their family very well, my best guess is that the 6 year old is desperate for attention (from her own mom), but I honestly don't want or have the desire to give this 6 year old attention when I'm trying to figure out how to parent my own child who is copying the 6 year old in less than desirable behavior.

For now, I've decided to do less public group events where the 6 year old is. The 7 year old we often see on a playdate, so we haven't really changed that. The 7 year old's mom is pretty engaged (though philosophically parents more traditionally than me). I can at least expect not to have to explain we need to keep people safe with the 7 year old.

I know my 5 year old loves being social as she is an extrovert, but being home more lately (her mom and sis nursing a flu), she doesn't ask to meet up with the larger homeschooling group. If I suggest we go meet with friends, she's often excited about it, though.

I need some clarity on how to navigate this. If my 5 year old wants to be more social, I want to know how better to respond if/when this dynamic arises. I also don't like feeling I'm avoiding public homeschooling things because the 6 year old might be there and I don't like her influence on my daughter.

We participated briefly with a different group where one day a bunch of the bigger kids climbed on top of a park bathroom building, my daughter included. My daughter had checked in with me and we talked about how it could be safe and what I thought would be OK. When one of the boys on the roof started throwing pebbles down near me, I became concerned. No other parents were checking in on their kids but they could certainly see them from where they were. I said something to the kids on the roof, but I was new to this group -- I didn't even know all the kids' names. This was relatively far from where we live, and for that and scheduling reasons we stopped going after that. But I was relieved not to have to return to that situation.

So I guess I am trying to figure out two things --

How do I guide my daughter when she is emulating irresponsible behavior from bigger kids?

and,

How best to approach (if at all) parents who are not engaged with their kids?

Thanks in advance for your replies. I always learn so much here!

Ceci

Sandra Dodd

Wouldn't those things have happened whether you were unschooling or not?

I'm not sure whether you have a question, or were just telling us a story.

"Looking up to bigger girls" isn't a principle to encourage. Making thoughtful decisions herself is.

-=- My daughter grew up gardening, and would not purposely harm a plant but in this context, she was pulling healthy leaves off of plants and also yelling, "Boring!"-=-

She did harm a plant. Her purpose might have been to emulate someone else, but she doesn't get to blame the other person for any leave she herself pulled off, does she?

ANY child, unschooled or not, who follows another person (parent or not) without knowing why, without thinking, without awareness, is acting thoughtlessly (or is under duress, perhaps).

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm not sure whether you have a question, or were just telling us a story.-=-

Sorry. Didn't see "part 2" before I wrote that.

Even if the other parents aren't watching their children, you could watch yours. You could hang out where they are instead of sitting with the other moms. It's hard, but it's what gives you the opportunity to witness and advise, instead of trying to figure out later what happened.

Sandra

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Karen

>>>>>but I wonder how do I respond to situations where I see her bigger friends (who she emulates) do things that are disrespectful or unsafe? There definitely seems to be some need on my daughter's part to conform or to be accepted by her peers or maybe just try out what her friends are trying out, but this is a relatively new situation for me and I feel muddy about how I'm dealing with it.<<<<<

What I have always done is to stay close to where the kids are, and involved in their interactions - not in a referee kind way, but in a hey-we're-all-hanging-out kind of way. When something comes up, I address it, keeping in mind, that because I'm the adult, I can choose to model the principles that I would like to see.

The most recent incident I can think of was when a friend of Ethan's threw a boot at me, and said, "Help me with this friggin' thing!" At first, Ethan thought that was funny, but I quickly said, "I would be happy to help you, but I don't like the way you asked. Throwing boots at people is kind of dangerous." That's it. Then I bent down, picked up the boot, and asked him if he wanted my help. I knew he was frustrated, and he knew how I felt. It has never happened again, and, in fact, he has since been quite respectful when he asks for help. His mom wasn't there, but she didn't need to be. It was my house. It was my body. It was my feelings. I set clear boundaries, and trusted he would try to respect them. He proved me right, and we both feel good about that.

So many things can be learned in these awkward moments. Through watching me interact in these situations, Ethan is learning what is acceptable, what to emulate, what is (or isn't) funny, how to set and maintain boundaries, how to avoid getting overly emotional in triggering situations, how to model kindness and generosity...so many things I couldn't possibly teach him by merely talking about it. I think we have to live it, experience it, make thoughtful choices, and model what we hope to see. I also think that if the outcome proves favourable, the choices will seem reasonable.

>>>>>The added complication is that the 6 year old's mom is not staying close to her 6 year old. Without knowing their family very well, my best guess is that the 6 year old is desperate for attention (from her own mom), but I honestly don't want or have the desire to give this 6 year old attention when I'm trying to figure out how to parent my own child who is copying the 6 year old in less than desirable behavior.<<<<<

I think you will run into a lot of kids needing a lot of attention. I certainly have. I sometimes find getting together with Ethan's friends extremely tiring as a result of all of the attention I give. But, in doing so, it takes the pressure off Ethan, it keeps the play enjoyable, it gives me an opportunity to model healthy interactions, and it helps me stay connected to Ethan *and* his friends so that no one is running off doing things secretly. One mom actually calls me when her son is struggling, because he spends so much time here. She knows that I play with the boys, and realizes that I know her son pretty well as a result. Would he be my ideal pick for Ethan as a friend. Not really. He has a lot of attention issues, and they manifest into anger when not met. But, Ethan likes playing with him, so I feel like it is up to me to help them navigate what is and is not acceptable actions and interactions. One day, I found this little guy's brother gluing all of our apples together (he moves fast!). His need for attention shows up as mischievious behaviour. I said, "Hey, you want glue something. How about we find the others and glue some rocks together." To the girl who likes to cut plants, I might find her a plant she can cut (weeds), or make one out of paper, or cut something else interesting and different. You never know where that will lead. Maybe everyone will get involved and some cool discoveries will be made. Your daughter will learn that cutting plants isn't appropriate, but asking mom for cool things to cut up is a lot of fun!

>>>> How do I guide my daughter when she is emulating irresponsible behavior from bigger kids?<<<<<

By modeling the kind of behaviour you would like to see, which would include speaking up among the new people you are gathered with when you see a child throwing rocks dangerously. Your daughter needs to see you do that to know that it is important. If it was myself, I would walk over to the other parents and, smiling, let them know that I didn't feel like throwing rocks off the roof was safe. Again, if you can find a place that would work well for throwing rocks, everyone wins. Your daughter sees you acting on your principals, sees you problem solving, and being creative and social in constructive ways. If she *is* a social person, she will need to develop those strong interpersonal skills. You can help her by modeling them. How great is that!

>>>>> How best to approach (if at all) parents who are not engaged with their kids?<<<<<

I have noticed, that modeling what I want to see, effects parents in positive ways too. I have had many parents say to me that they like the way I interact with Ethan and their kids. They notice that the kids come to me with problems often before they approach the parents themselves. That sends a clear message. I have often been told that I have so much patience, and that they (the parents) could never do what I do. Yet, every time I see them, they seem to be doing a little bit more than they were before. I don't expect that from Ethan's friends' parents, but I do see it...often. Witnessing that change helps me work to be better too.

Sandra Dodd

-=- To the girl who likes to cut plants, I might find her a plant she can cut (weeds), or make one out of paper, or cut something else interesting and different. You never know where that will lead. Maybe everyone will get involved and some cool discoveries will be made. Your daughter will learn that cutting plants isn't appropriate, but asking mom for cool things to cut up is a lot of fun! -=-

Good idea. I was chopping the heck out of flowers the other day to get little pieces to string up for a miniature garland.
At flower shops they chop and pull stems and leaves off all the time, to get the effect they want.

Maybe buying a couple of inexpensive bouquets of flowers at the grocery store, or end-of-run flowers from a bulk florist, and helping kids trim them to fit in vases would be fun.

Karen wrote something worth reading twice:

-=-I have noticed, that modeling what I want to see, effects parents in positive ways too. I have had many parents say to me that they like the way I interact with Ethan and their kids. They notice that the kids come to me with problems often before they approach the parents themselves. That sends a clear message. I have often been told that I have so much patience, and that they (the parents) could never do what I do. Yet, every time I see them, they seem to be doing a little bit more than they were before. I don't expect that from Ethan's friends' parents, but I do see it...often. Witnessing that change helps me work to be better too. -=-

Sandra

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maryann

>>>>>>>
> How do I guide my daughter when she is emulating irresponsible behavior from bigger kids?
>
> and,
>
> How best to approach (if at all) parents who are not engaged with their kids?
>
> Thanks in advance for your replies. I always learn so much here!
>>>>>>>

I'm so glad you asked these questions. I recently posted a similar dilemma on AlwaysUnschooled, regarding my son and his cousins at family gatherings. My son is 5 also, and sounds similar to your daughter, except that he is following and imitating his younger cousins (whose behaviors and the sources of them are similar to the 6 year old you described, but they are only ages 4 and 3.)

I was asking for and got lots of suggestions for fun things to do to keep them all engaged more safely and respectfully. I also got reinforcement that me actively being right there playing too is a good idea. I look forward to hearing more responses from this group, too.

I also wanted to share that some kids just seem to enjoy following other kids who look like fun, regardless of age, as in my son's case, it's not just older kids. That is fine when the other kid is a "good example", but it can be really hard when the other parents are either overly corrective or under-attentive. My son's focus shifts to the other kid, and having fun with them takes precedence over any suggestions or directives that I may have for him.

maryann
ds 5, dd2

Meredith

catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
>There is a girl, almost 6, that my 5 year old looks up to, but this girl is often doing things I consider unsafe or disrespectful.
*****************

So be close by more when they play so you can let your daughter know when she's doing something that's not okay. She's doing what someone else does as a way to learn, but that's not the Only way she's learning - she needs feedback and information from you, too.

>> My daughter grew up gardening, and would not purposely harm a plant but in this context, she was pulling healthy leaves off of plants...
**************

So you say "that's not yours - it's not nice to damage it" or something of that nature. If you're not there at the time, mention it to her later.

>> and also yelling, "Boring!"

Did she need to go home? Everything you described in your post seemed to involve situations where there are a bunch of other people and not enough to keep your daughter interested. Maybe those groups aren't a good idea for y'all right now.

---Meredith

catfish_friend

On Dec 20, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> ---You could hang out where they are instead of sitting with the other moms.---

I have done that and when I look around and the mom of the child(ren) is not around, I get mad that I have to guide a child(ren) I do not know well. I guess I have to get over it :)

Or, take the opportunity to make new younger friends :)

As much as I am enjoying deschooling, the changes and growth can be challenging and I have developed some unrealistic expectations that I could relax and be social when my daughter is being social. Parenting doesn't stop when you're social, does it?!

Ceci

Sandra Dodd

-=I have done that and when I look around and the mom of the child(ren) is not around, I get mad that I have to guide a child(ren) I do not know well.-=-

You don't "have to."
It's not worth being mad about something you're choosing to do.
If you choose not to do it, then it's not fair to get mad that your child was guided by other children.

-=-I guess I have to get over it :)-=-

You don't have to.
It would probably be healthier if you chose to try to get over it. :-)

Seeing things a different way turns a frustrating situation into a calm one. There's a good line in Hamlet: "there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Finding ways to see what you have instead of what you don't have will make you happy.

http://sandradodd.com/abundance
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Sandra

catfish_friend

On Dec 20, 2011, at 12:15 PM, "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:

> ///To the girl who likes to cut plants, I might find her a plant she can cut (weeds), or make one out of paper, or cut something else interesting and different.///

This has been in the context of a kind of co-operative of kids workshops which makes me realize that the format itself may not be the best for my daughter at this time (and maybe other kids in this group) if I'm really seeing my daughter. It would be easier to suggest alternatives if we were more in exploration mode than focusing on a pre-determined project or plan. I've been drawn to these for the social aspect and also because I like the moms. Maybe I need to go to more free play opportunities with them and focus on being present and close to my daughter.

///If it was myself, I would walk over to the other parents and, smiling, let them know that I didn't feel like throwing rocks off the roof was safe.///

I need help with the "smiling" part. I honestly feel so stressed out in the moment though on the surface I appear calm. In the case with the rocks, I did re-direct the kids to throwing away from people, but also suggested that it wasn't the best thing to do as the gravel was on the roof for a reason. I think I was getting stressed because my daughter was on the roof (I wonder if I was succumbing to peer pressure!) and I didn't want to leave her up there to get to the other moms. I could have been better in this situation by talking to the other moms BEFORE allowing my daughter to explore the roof, too, or saying that I wasn't all that comfortable with her up there.

Ah, live and learn. Thank you AlwaysLearning moms for your wisdom and guidance. You never disappoint!

Peace,
Ceci


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catfish_friend

On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:17 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> ::: You don't have to.
> It would probably be healthier if you chose to try to get over it. :-) :::

Yes, I will re-read your "haveto" link. Yes, "choose to" is more accurate (and healthier). Better still is to embrace it as an opportunity, choosing gratitude that I can be present and guide my daughter (and her friends, and maybe their parents). I do feel I'm fumbling a bit and learning as I go, though, even just today another mom commented on how she's learning how to improve her parenting from watching me...!

Again, my wrong expectations -- I thought most of the other moms would be more present and engaged than me since I'm starting to deschool and I thought the others had been Homeschooling for some time...I don't know how many are unschooling. With the workshops, probably more like eclectic, would be my guess...

Thank you again,
Ceci

Schuyler

________________________________
From: catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, 21 December 2011, 1:57
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Looking up to bigger girls


On Dec 20, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> ---You could hang out where they are instead of sitting with the other moms.---

I have done that and when I look around and the mom of the child(ren) is not around, I get mad that I have to guide a child(ren) I do not know well.  I guess I have to get over it :)

Or, take the opportunity to make new younger friends :)

As much as I am enjoying deschooling, the changes and growth can be challenging and I have developed some unrealistic expectations that I could relax and be social when my daughter is being social.  Parenting doesn't stop when you're social, does it?!

Ceci
=====================

I have almost always been an active participant in my children's group activities. I tend to lead follow the leader games and or bring stories to read aloud or play hide and seek or whatever else. I have more often than not been the only parent doing those things. Only if David is with me is there another parent also playing. I've watched lots of children get into fights while their parents are far too far away for my comfort. I've stepped in some times and others I've been aware and watchful to make sure that it didn't get any worse. Sometimes I've been irritated at the lack of engagement that these other children have with their parents. Sometimes I've been irritated at feeling like I'm the only responsible adult in the room. Sometimes I've just wanted to sit down and have a cup of tea and chat. But the few times I've done that the conversation has been less fun than playing follow the leader. And has been less rewarding than hearing a child laugh over
a good game of hide and seek.

Schuyler

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catfish_friend

On Dec 21, 2011, at 9:26 AM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:

> ///Sometimes I've just wanted to sit down and have a cup of tea and chat. But the few times I've done that the conversation has been less fun than playing follow the leader. And has been less rewarding than hearing a child laugh over
> a good game of hide and seek.///

Thanks, Schuyler -- a nice reminder that it is something to look forward to and to enjoy -- playing with, partnering with our children!

Ceci