Hema A. Bharadwaj

Hello wise ones,
Pasted below is a part of Joyce Fetterol's site. I'm wondering if some one
can lead me to more links, essays on the topic "taking care of our own
needs". I'm feeling a little burnt out and perhaps as a result confused
about where to find our balance. Breathing now :-)

Thank you! Hema - (missing dh due to his crazy work-hours, who is the only
other person besides me who the kids love being with... anyone else they
care for is too far away geographically speaking.... and all other
relationships here in India are too new for them)

FROM the topic "Taking care of our own needs":

*Sometimes I'm too too tired to go out at 10 pm to get some candy that he
wants. We'll discuss the options like creating something else or eating what
we've got in the house. I've noticed a trend these days that he's accepting
of my limits more.*

*Sandra Dodd: I'm going to jump off from there. He WILL accept limits more
as he knows they're thoughtful/compassionate/respectful of him. But aside
from the good part of the statement above, I want to move toward what might
be a misunderstanding.*

*Letting kids have their choice of what's in the house, or letting them pick
things at the store are natural parts of everyday life. Going out after dark
to get something someone craves isn't, unless people were restless and
wanting to get out anyway, or needed to pick someone up from a movie or a
friend's house, or whatever honest out-of-house reason there might be.*

*The only things people should really be expected to go out for after dark,
I think, are necessities like toilet paper, maybe milk, drinking water if
they have bad water and no filter.*

*I have two or three times gone out with Holly, walking to the Texaco just
for candy or the walk. We could've driven, but it was more the nighttime
adventure than the candy bar.*

*If one of mine says "I wish we had M&Ms" I'll say "Put it on the list and
I'll get some tomorrow." (or if groceries were just bought, "next time")*

*"My kids can have what they want" (which gets said a lot by many long term
unschoolers) doesn't mean "... in the whole earth, any time of the day or
night."*

*"I don't limit my kids' video games" does NOT mean "I buy them every game
and system that comes out." It means the parents aren't forbidding or timing
or whatever.*

*And if we say "Whatever's in the house, they can have," some newer readers
seem to smugly determine just never to have candy or video games in the
house.*

*There's a balance.*

*The extremes aren't so good. Neither deprivation nor crazily trying to
provide everything a child has ever seen or imagined is going to work.*


--
Hema A. Bharadwaj
http://thebharadwajknights.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

prism7513

> *And if we say "Whatever's in the house, they can have," some newer
readers
> seem to smugly determine just never to have candy or video games in the
> house.*
>
> *There's a balance.*
>
> *The extremes aren't so good. Neither deprivation nor crazily trying to
> provide everything a child has ever seen or imagined is going to work.*
>

I don't want to limit the sweets in my house, and THAT's where my
problem is! I want to know what you do about a batch of cookies. If my
child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let him? And he
will, because *I'VE* done it! I KNOW I'm eating unhealthy, though, and
though he knows, too, it's the knowledge of a four-year-old who
doesn't REALLY get that 12 cookies MIGHT not be a good idea.

I know you can have a plate or what-not of available snacks. But I
LOVE baking. If I make a batch, or two, do I hide some for later? Or
do we just all dig in a finish it in a day and then wait for a few
days to make more? (my tendency is to make a batch right away since
*I* have the sweet tooth.)

My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
they don't get too many sweets. Did your kids gradually back off once
you said "eat as many as you like" or do you only have a certain
number of cookies available for that day (for everyone, not just the
kids...)

In other words, will they stop eating 5 at a time if the cookies are
there and available, or do I not make them available? It's not that I
don't trust them, but that if they're anything like me, then cookies
it is, for breakfast, lunch, and supper (and I DO eat them at every
meal at this point....)

So help me - should I stop? Or will they learn what I never did (which
would be wonderful, because then I wouldn't have to worry...) But I'm
afraid I'm sabotaging them, and so the fault lies with me, not them.
If so, I can learn to stop...

Deb

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 26, 2008, at 12:04 AM, prism7513 wrote:
> I don't want to limit the sweets in my house


But you do want to! This is one of those mental shifts. You want your
kids to only eat as many sweets as you think are good for them. And
you want what you think to be right. So in your mind you do have a
limit. You just don't want to be the sweets Nazi. You want the kids
to internalize what you believe is right and limit themselves.

> If my
> child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let him?


What will happen if he does eat them all in one day?

What if you make another batch and he eats that too? What will happen?

If you buy ten bags of flour and keep making batches of cookies, how
many do you think he'll eat? All of them?

If you do that every day, do you think he'd keep eating cookies
everyday until he exploded?

> And he will, because *I'VE* done it!


Why do you think he and you are the same person? Does he like the
exact same things you do? Does he dislike the exact same things as
you do?

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean it will happen.

Just because we gave birth to them, doesn't mean they're our clones.

I suspect you know all that. I'm telling you the obvious *but*
sometimes our fears can override our common sense. We'll set aside
what makes sense to do some voodoo just to make sure some possible
bad thing doesn't happen.

And questions make us squirm. We don't have the textbook and we
didn't study. What if we get the answer wrong???

I knew I couldn't be trusted around candy. I had proof. I opened up a
bag of Halloween candy before Halloween and in 2 or 3 days, 3 bags of
candy were gone.

But actually what I had proof of is how I react to deprivation. I
didn't buy candy except at Halloween. It was the only time I could
get it so *of course* I packed in as much as I could before it
disappeared for another year.

So I gave myself permission to have candy. If I finished one bag
(Almond M&Ms were irresistible at the time) I promised myself I could
have another. It did take 3 bags! but I did get over the craving. We
now buy bags of Dove milk chocolate miniatures and have Ghirardelli
chocolate bits in the freezer. And I can go days without eating any.

> Or
> do we just all dig in a finish it in a day and then wait for a few
> days to make more?


Why wait a few days? Make 4 dozen.

If you were thirsty would you have only one sip today then another
tomorrow even though there's an unlimited amount coming from the tap?

You *could* drink water by the gallon. Do you? *Is* it just because
water isn't as tasty as cookies? Most people would say that's true
but most people don't have a tap of running cookies freely
accessible ;-) So they're making assumptions without actually
testing. They don't know what they're like when cookies are as easy
to get as water. They only know what they're like when cookies appear
like an oasis in a desert.

(And if the obvious conclusion was always the true answer, no one
would have ever questioned whether the sun goes around the earth,
since we can see that it does, plain as day! ;-)

> My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
> they don't get too many sweets.


You don't know because you're using your external monitor to judge
what's going on inside of someone else. Of course you can't know. So
parents make wild guesses. Or use their "gut instinct". Or look to
experts to pass on their wild guesses or gut instincts so parents
don't have to be wrong.

*If* we couldn't self regulate, *if* we needed experts to tell us
what we should and shouldn't eat, how would our species have survived
long enough to create experts?

Here's a mainstream article in the NY Times about eating that was
actually very close to what we discuss here:

6 Food Mistakes Parents Make
http://tinyurl.com/3m4lgf

(You may need to register to view it.)

> do you only have a certain
> number of cookies available for that day (for everyone, not just the
> kids...)


Here's something Pam wrote about TV but it applies to food and
everything else too. Which is the really cool thing about philosophy!
The principles that work in one area can make our view of another
area clearer.

Economics
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics

> In other words, will they stop eating 5 at a time if the cookies are
> there and available,


Again, what will happen if they eat 5 at a time? What if they eat a
dozen? Your fears are stopping you from doing ... what exactly? Think
about it! Really. Do you fear that if you let them eat 5 dozen
cookies that they won't ever eat anything else?

I suspect the questions are sounding snarky as though I'm saying "Are
you so dim as to believe what conventional parents believe?" But they
aren't. They're honest questions. Most parents don't think. They
fear. And they reach for answers that will soothe their fears. We ask
people to think! :-) And ask people to try it.

What *will* happen if you make 5 dozen cookies every day for the next
5 weeks? Why would parents be afraid to try it? What do they fear
would happen? (No one needs to answer that here. It's just something
to ponder why it would seem a better idea to ask strangers than to
really think about something and try it out. It's just pure fear that
makes us imagine that opening the flood gate of cookies will make
kids never want to stop stuffing them.)

I'm betting you can't even make it 2 days before the kids say "STOP!
Let me have something besides these darn cookies!"

> It's not that I
> don't trust them,


Yes, it is that you don't trust them! Clear thinking is helped
*hugely* by honesty. Parents are trained to say things in a nice way,
to cover up the truth. And it really muddies thought.

How many parents have said "I asked nicely and he still didn't do
it." Well if you *asked* then one acceptable answer was no. If no
wasn't an acceptable answer, then it was a demand in a frilly dress.

Take off the frilly dress and let those thoughts run naked. It's lots
easier to see what they really look like without their costumes on.

> but that if they're anything like me, then cookies
> it is, for breakfast, lunch, and supper (and I DO eat them at every
> meal at this point....)


And you don't trust yourself either.

I'm betting you can't make it through 2 days of nothing but cookies
either!

> So help me - should I stop?


What do you think? <eg>

Try it. See what happens.

Also read Sandra's and my site and the archives. Because if our kids
*are* eating nothing but cookies, you shouldn't be asking us for
advice! ;-)

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com

Sandra also has some unschooling blogs listed:

http://sandradodd.com/blogs/

Ren is also running a Blog Carnival over at Familyrun (Radical
Unschoolers' Network) where people write blog posts on a particular
topic and links to their posts are collected in once place:

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topic/listForCategory?
categoryId=2184370%3ACategory%3A8129

That should be a good source of what kids look like in unschooling
families.

Joyce

carnationsgalore

> If my child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let
> him? And he will, because *I'VE* done it!

And what was the consequence? What's so bad about eating a bunch of
cookies in a day?

> I know you can have a plate or what-not of available snacks. But I
> LOVE baking.

Great! I'm lucky to have a dd16 who loves to bake so we always have
goodies around our house. Do you bake anything else besides cookies?
Have you tried different cookie recipes?

> My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
> they don't get too many sweets.

I'm positive your children won't stop eating the good stuff just
because cookies are available. In fact, how about putting some
cookies on their dinner plates? They may eat the cookies first, but
they'll likely eat the rest of the stuff too!

You're way too stressed about sweets! You're giving them a lot of
power. You're thinking of them as special and you're modeling that
for your kids.

> Did your kids gradually back off once you said "eat as many as you
> like" or do you only have a certain number of cookies available for
> that day (for everyone, not just the kids...)

If something yummy is around, we're likely to eat it. It might be
cookies or cake. It might also be yogurt, fruit, cheese, and meat.
My family eats what is readily available and easy to grab. A bowl of
watermelon chunks will go as fast as a plate of cookies. Seriously.
Make sure you have different things out and visible so they can pick
and choose what they want. If you limit and withhold stuff from
them, you're only making those sweets seem more appealing. Maybe
that is why you have a problem with sweets? Were they limited for
you while you were growing up?

Beth M.

swissarmy_wife

> I don't want to limit the sweets in my house, and THAT's where my
> problem is!

So stop limiting sweets. Make them abundantly available.

>I want to know what you do about a batch of cookies.

We eat them. Should we do something else?

>If my child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let him?

No. You don't LET him. You bring him some cookies, and then leave
the plate out and let him know they are there for the taking!

>it's the knowledge of a four-year-old who doesn't REALLY get that 12
>cookies MIGHT not be a good idea.

keyword: MIGHT (but do you really know?)

did he even EAT 12 cookies yet? or was that YOU?

> My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
> they don't get too many sweets.

Why?

My 10 year old eats a really balanced meal plan around here. And I
don't mean balanced in the food chart kind of way. I just mean that
he tends to eat a little of everything.

My three year old will go days and eat almost nothing but popsicles.
I try and buy the best most natural popsicles I can. He LOVES
popsicles. He is growing big and strong, he is happy, and his teeth
are not rotten. He eats them at breakfasttime, at lunchtime, and at
dinnertime. He's been doing this on and off for quite some time.

There are no guarantees whether your child will stop eating cookies.
But you are a guaranteeing a more peaceful relationship if you take
the limits off now. As my three year year gets older, I DO notice
that he is listening to his body more and more.

Robyn L. Coburn

It's no good using your own eating experiences as a template (or reverse
template) for how your children will behave around food - unless you were
unschooled!

Almost all the adults I know have grown up with some kind of limiting or
emotional issues connected to food and dining, which interfered with their
ability to listen to the instinctive information that their bodies were
giving them.

The goal with unschooling is that kids never have that inner voice
extinguished.

Jayn eats whatever she wants, whenever she wants from the food we have in
the house or at the store. The only time I have said anything to her is if I
am concerned that she wants a caffeinated beverage and *I* want to be able
to go to bed. Observation has shown me that my fears even in this area are
unfounded, so I now hold my tongue. She has a natural understanding of her
own body's needs. Truly.

Kids can use up the energy available to them in foods like cookies growing
and playing and climbing and jumping. They need the glucose to burn while
their brains are growing too. If you have a wide variety of foods available
over time the kids will eat a perfectly balanced diet for their daily
changing needs.

So about the cookies - I just make big batches, and keep lots of frozen
cookie dough in the fridge and make them whenever Jayn asks for cookies. She
may "binge" as some would call it, on increasingly rare ocassions, but then
we will go weeks and weeks without her asking for a single cookie. She also
continues to astonish other people by saying "no thank you" to cookies
offered to her with much ceremony as if they were a special treat.

Just say "yes" to requests. Make even more than you think they will want to
eat. Just put out the cookie jar, while saving some for absentees if they
also like cookies. Continue to put out other tasty choices also.

<<<<> My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
> they don't get too many sweets.>>>>

Allow them to be the arbiter of how many is too many... of anything! Sweets
are good stuff too. Once you let yourself believe that you will be more at
peace. (And they really will contintue eat healthfully for their individual
needs without emotional battles.)

Don't worry and don't make cookies something to be treasured and sneaked and
sought after and felt guilty about. All will be well.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn L. Coburn <dezigna@...>

Kids can use up the energy available to them in foods like cookies
growing
and playing and climbing and jumping. They need the glucose to burn
while
their brains are growing too. If you have a wide variety of foods
available
over time the kids will eat a perfectly balanced diet for their daily
changing needs.

-=-=-=-==-=-

So at the conferences, especially this last one, every morning early I
go around picking up trash from the night before. There are *always*
empty sugar packets around. These last two years, there has been an
enormous number of sugar packets left lying on the floor.

An "outsider" may say, "See? These unschooled kids only eat sugar!"

*MY* take is that these are children who have been up most of the night
playing (video/computer games, mostly). Their last meal was at 6:00pm.
It's 2:00AM. There's a coffee station just outside the door with sugar
packets available.

Frankly, they NEED that energy. In order to keep going, which is the
goal, they NEED nutrition. Sugar packets may not the the BEST solution,
but it's the best one available to them RIGHT NOW. They sought out what
they needed. Had I been up at that time and prepared to assist them, I
would have put out a monkey platter of meats, cheeses, nuts, fruits,
chips, spreads, and other foods that could help them through the night.
That's a good idea for future gatherings---Conference Goddesses, take
note! <G>

But lacking help from an adult, they made do with what they had.

Children ARE resourceful. Children whose eating is regulated for them
must *always* be craving something more---something else. Probably
sugar!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

hema a b

I guess the topic got changed :-) But still would be grateful for any
links in the direction of "time for parents, caring for one's self"

Thank you,
Hema

Robyn L. Coburn

Plus the snack vending machines were all broken.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

<<<> *MY* take is that these are children who have been up most of the night
> playing (video/computer games, mostly). Their last meal was at 6:00pm.
> It's 2:00AM. There's a coffee station just outside the door with sugar
> packets available.>>>

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

So help me - should I stop? Or will they learn what I never did (which
would be wonderful, because then I wouldn't have to worry...) But I'm
afraid I'm sabotaging them, and so the fault lies with me, not them.
If so, I can learn to stop...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I hear a lot of fear in you post. I see you don't trust your children.
I ALWAYS have cookies in my house. Sometimes boxes of them. I also like to bake.
Naruto my 6 year old will So bake with your kids, offer cookies and offer other food options at the same time.
Have you seen this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/humanbody/truthaboutfood/flashapp/nonflash.shtml

scrool down to :
How to feed your kids
and click on:
Does forbidding snacks works?


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Did your kids gradually back off once you said "eat as many as you like"

No need to say that. Just set and arrange the food you're offering out for
them. Kids need no instructions or teaching about how to handle food. If
you say "eat as many as you like" that might sound like they shouldn't think
of eating more or less or none at all. Just let food be available.

The trick is for you to stop waiting for your kids to back off and to enjoy
food with them. All food. Work on giving yourself lots of permission
instead of repeating "shouldn't's" to yourself (and/or others) about sugar
consumption. Neither you nor your children will eat nothing but cookies for
the rest of your lives. Maybe the first time and sometimes afterward
they'll have a cookiefest. Enjoy seeing them enjoy themselves. Cookies are
a wonderful food option. Make it part of the other options and let the land
of food be a great place to explore. The more generous you are with food,
the less deprived you and your children will feel about it.

You and your children will make all kinds of food decisions along the way.
If you decide you want to lose weight, for instance, you'll make decisions
about not just food but other factors that can help you reach your goals.
Your children can do the same thing.

And most important, it will be fun!

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

the middle part of my post got deleted somehow!
sorry about that.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 



----- Original Message ----
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 11:42:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Okay, now about food ;) WAS Re: need links to similar article


So help me - should I stop? Or will they learn what I never did (which
would be wonderful, because then I wouldn't have to worry...) But I'm
afraid I'm sabotaging them, and so the fault lies with me, not them.
If so, I can learn to stop...

-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=- =-=-
I hear a lot of fear in you post. I see you don't trust your children.
I ALWAYS have cookies in my house. Sometimes boxes of them. I also like to bake.
Naruto my 6 year old will So bake with your kids, offer cookies and offer other food options at the same time.
Have you seen this:

http://www.bbc. co.uk/sn/ humanbody/ truthaboutfood/ flashapp/ nonflash. shtml

scrool down to :
How to feed your kids
and click on:
Does forbidding snacks works?

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow. blogspot. com/

http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/unschoolin gmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-But still would be grateful for any
links in the direction of "time for parents, caring for one's self"-=-



Hema,

The quotes you brought seemed to me about finding a balance about how
to meet kids' needs, but didn't seem so much in the direction of
"caring for one's self."

Maybe instead of a request for quotes (since none came), could we
just discuss that topic? (And by "we" I mean the rest of you,
because I've been out of the house a lot and am about to leave again,
with Holly (as usual).)



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

prism7513

> What do you think? <eg>
>
> Try it. See what happens.
>

I have do doubt that they'd want SOMETHING besides cookies. I guess my
question comes down to, I know I always have something sweet
available, and I always eat it, and I'm sure I'd be healthier than if
I didn't as many as I do. But that's MY problem.

If the KIDS end up eating mostly cookies, with good food inbetween,
because of MY obsession to have sweets around, and then they gain
weight or are unhealthy, I'd feel bad, because I supplied them with
sweets.

I know they'd keep eating the good foods they like, I guess what I
don't trust is that their bodies would know what the right balance is,
and to be VERY honest, I'd like to hear of past experience with other
kids. Like, "Well, at first my kid ate 5 cookies inbetween meals and
sometimes FOR a meal, then they went a few days without, then back
again." or whatever...

My thing with sweets is when I'm done binging on one thing, I move on
to something else, and I don't it's not the healthiest option. But if
my kids pick it up just because I have it available for my sweet
tooth, then I do feel bad. I feel like I should only have the healthy
options there for them to choose.

Do we as adults override or body's cues for good food because we never
learned to listen? Or am I justified in eating all the sweets I do?

I admit that I have kept Dove chocolates, and NEVER missed a day of
eating them. I will search the house for something sweet when I run
out...I honestly have never gone without unless it's not here and I
either don't have ingredients to make something or I'm too lazy to do
so, which hasn't been often.

If I was already setting a good example, and only had sweets here and
there in our house, to be honest, I'd say "have at it" because I'd
have mostly fruit, a few cookies from time to time, and other healthy
snacks. But I tend to be a bad example.

So I guess the question is, will the kids figure out what's good for
them in spite of "bad" conditions, or do I need to change the
conditions in order to better favor their bodies needs?

Deb

prism7513

-
> I'm positive your children won't stop eating the good stuff just
> because cookies are available. In fact, how about putting some
> cookies on their dinner plates? They may eat the cookies first, but
> they'll likely eat the rest of the stuff too!


I have, and they do :)

> You're way too stressed about sweets! You're giving them a lot of
> power. You're thinking of them as special and you're modeling that
> for your kids.
>

I DO think they are special! I'd MUCH rather eat chocolate chip
cookies than veggies!


Were they limited for
> you while you were growing up?
>


By number, yes. Available for every meal, though.

Deb
>

Robyn L. Coburn

What if you gave yourself permission to eat all the cookies you wanted,
without any of the attached guilt or the kind of desperation that I sense
behind some of your posts? Do you think that after a while, cookies would
get old? I know they haven't so far, but might they not?

Chocolate and cookies got old for me. Nowadays I only crave a bit of
chocolate at a certain time of the month and very slightly.

I'll do a long post about Jayn's eating as one answer your other post soon,
but I'm needed with Jayn right now. Sandra has a bunch of food story pages
though.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

k

>>>>>>If the KIDS end up eating mostly cookies, with good food inbetween,
because of MY obsession to have sweets around, and then they gain
weight or are unhealthy, I'd feel bad, because I supplied them with
sweets.<<<<<

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the metabolism of a child
works the same way as that of an adult.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I DO think they are special! I'd MUCH rather eat chocolate chip
cookies than veggies!

Were they limited for
> you while you were growing up?
>

By number, yes. Available for every meal, though.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
I was never limited in any way growing up.
I much, much rather eat veggies than chocolate chip cookies.
My DH Brian was limited in quantity too and he is the one who cannot live without sweets.
He does eat healthy stuff too. Maybe it is just taste and personality.


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I was never limited in any way growing up.
I much, much rather eat veggies than chocolate chip cookies.
My DH Brian was limited in quantity too and he is the one who cannot live without sweets.
He does eat healthy stuff too. Maybe it is just taste and personality.


=-=-=-=-=
Or maybe he needs those calories as he works very hard work from 4:30 AM until 9:00PM EVERYDAY and runs and goes for bicycle rides on top of that. HE is also extremely fit and healthy at almost 46. Everything he eats he burns one way or another/

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sandra has a bunch of food story pages
though.-=-

http://sandradodd.com/food

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn L. Coburn

<<<<<> I know they'd keep eating the good foods they like, I guess what I
> don't trust is that their bodies would know what the right balance is,
> and to be VERY honest, I'd like to hear of past experience with other
> kids. Like, "Well, at first my kid ate 5 cookies inbetween meals and
> sometimes FOR a meal, then they went a few days without, then back
> again." or whatever...>>>>

If you have always offered a wide variety of foods and not done any kind of
rewards/punishment actions around food and not made them clean their plate
or "try just one bite" or only eaten sweets after dinner, then chances are
their instinct is unsullied.

If you have done any of the negative stuff, which is the equivalent of
inserting static into the signal, stop and it will just take a little time.
Our bodies generally are set up to work properly. In the absence of real
medical conditions, they will work well if given a chance.

Watch your language. Women in this culture are particularly prone to using
moral imperatives around food eg "I was bad today; I ate three chocolates"
or "I've been good about going to the gym so I deserve this smoothie as a
reward." Don't do it. Speak about food with enjoyment for its own sake, not
as a compass for judging your behavior.

Beware of unconciously rewarding an empty plate with your attitude. Beware
of saying someone is a "good eater".

Jayn has always eaten a large quantity of one food at each meal, picking
slightly at the other parts. For example a lot of mashed potato, a lot of
brocolli, a lot of grean beans, a lot of breaded chicken, a lot of ice
cream, a lot of noodles, a lot of toast, a lot of bacon, a lot of cookies, a
lot of chips, a lot of strawberries. She will ask if she has a hankering for
something.

As a result of long observation, I can predict when she is about to have a
growth spurt or a cognitive leap by her food choices. She will suddenly
start carbo loading, eating tons of mashed and roasted potato, tons of
noodles with a dash of oil and garlic spray, tons of toast with mayonaise,
pancakes, rice, cookies and more potatoes. Within a week or so she clearly
has made a jump of some kind - we notice it in an expansion of her
vocabulary, an increased sophistication of her observations. Generally she
will suddenly be half an inch taller too.

She will follow this week of carbs with a few days of light eating
emphasizing protein and dairy, asking for snacks of plates of grated cheese,
chicken, steak, jerky, yoghurt, vanilla ice cream, scrambled eggs.

If I put out sliced fruit with her snacks she will eat a lot of it. We make
skillet meals a lot, and she will pick out of them what she particularly
wants.

In between these intermittent and unpredictable growth spurt/recovery
moments she eats a wide variety of stuff, sometimes finding it hard to
choose or know what she wants. In the absence of a hankering for something,
I just list what I have and am able to prepare and she usually finds
something appealing. If nothing seems to work, and she has said no to some
favorites, I tend to just "make myself " ;) something from the list that I
know she has liked in the past, and usually she will then see and smell it
and want a portion.

When we have dinner at the table, it is usually pretty special. Jayn
decorates the table with dolls and candles. I tend to put out serving
platters of the various foods and we all help ourselves to what we want,
rather than serve up in the kitchen.

Jayn will sometimes want something to keep her going when I am in the middle
of cooking a meal. I tell her how long it will be, and she tells me what she
wants to eat in the mean time - often a cookie or some chips or crackers. So
I give it to her, and she still eats some of her dinner - as much as she
wants. Some days a lot, others a few bites.

If Jayn gets hungry, most particularly if she is growth spurt mode, because
I haven't been watching the clock or checking in, or she has been too
occupied to notice her hunger, she can get particularly obnoxious, cranky,
aggressive and locked in to being unable to choose what to eat.
Unfortunately I usually just have to ride it out, protect myself from her
hitting and kicking, and keep on trying to get some quick food into her.
When I first see the signs I will often hurry in to the kitchen a make a
yoghurt smoothie which does the trick of restoring her equilibrium. Or I
make a sandwich. Or I give her a cookie! But truly the best thing is not to
let it get that bad - to keep food available.

When we are out I always have the snack bag with an assortment of things.
She will eat differently out at the park than at home. For example at home
she will rarely ask for an apple, but will eat the sliced one I put out. At
the park she will come to the bag and take an apple away with her to eat. At
home she will refuse a sandwich; at the park or when playing outside, she
will eat several quickly.

Yesterday Jayn asked for homemade vanilla cupcakes, chocolate chip cookies,
corn and couscous, a grilled cheese sandwich, potato chips, sushi, sliced
apple, samples of chicken at the store, lemonade, chocolate milk, some
toblerone, ice cream and iced water. We also bought some new things at the
store to try out over the next few days, but I forgot popsicles.

Today Jayn has asked for and had bacon and eggs, a chicken noodle stir fry
with carrots & brocolli, breaded shrimp (didn't like it), sticky cinnamon
cake with icing, strawberries and whipped cream, lemonade and iced water.
She has just asked for more corn and couscous, triggered by me reading this
list to her... (returning from the kitchen)... Alas half of the toblerone
fell on the ground yesterday so she had none left for today. But we'll get
some more next time we go out.

Jayn's favorite vegetables are artichoke, asparagus and potatoes in various
incarnations. She also likes green beans and corn. Her favorite fruits are
pears, strawberries, apples and bananas in smoothies. She sometimes wants
peaches, grapes and oranges/mandarins. Every now and then she has a
hankering for a salad if we have chinese salad dressing - so I try to keep
it on hand. She will add garlic to anything savory. Her far and away most
favorite food is sushi, and her favorite snack is Tim's Hawaiian Chips in
Maui Onion flavor (the lilac bag).

When we eat fast food, she will rarely consume an entire cheeseburger, and
then only if she eats no fries at all. If she eats the fries I usually find
the burger with only one bite out of it. We used to buy meringues for a
while, (that I tend to love to eat). I would give Jayn all she wanted then
later find half meringues sitting on the arm of the chair or the floor by
her play area or on the bedside table. We've gone off meringues for the
present, but they may well return to favor.

I provide, I watch.

I hope this helps.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com

Pamela Sorooshian

> And he will, because *I'VE* done it!

I'VE done it, too. But none of my kids has.

Why do you think he would necessarily do it because you have?

If you do the same conventional things to him as were probably done to
you (limits/restrictions), do you think it'll turn out differently for
him?

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-I want to know what you do about a batch of cookies. If my
child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let him? And he
will, because *I'VE* done it!-=-

This isn't really logic.

Maybe make a batch of cookie dough, but only cook them one tray at a
time and put the extra in the freezer.

-=-I KNOW I'm eating unhealthy, though, and though he knows, too,...-=-

How does he "know"? Because you told him? These words are revealing
a lack of waiting and watching. I think if you read the food
collection here

http://sandradodd.com/food

and Joyce's writings on food

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/



-=-... it's the knowledge of a four-year-old who
doesn't REALLY get that 12 cookies MIGHT not be a good idea.-=-

You think 12 cookies aren't a good idea because you've been told so.
He's four. If and when you stop having so much emotion and angst
around cookies and other food, he won't have any desire to hurry up
and eat before you change your mind. If there will be cookies
tomorrow, why eat them all today?



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-What *will* happen if you make 5 dozen cookies every day for the next
5 weeks? Why would parents be afraid to try it? What do they fear
would happen? -=-

When I was 20, I worked at Dunkin' Donuts. I could have all the
donuts I wanted. Within two days, one a day was all I could
handle. I wanted something not at all sweet when I got home. My
sinuses were sugar glazed.

Maybe there are people here who have worked at cookie shops or
bakeries and have worked with dozens or hundreds or thousands of
cookies a day.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sandra also has some unschooling blogs listed:

http://sandradodd.com/blogs/



That page wasn't in such great shape, but I'm working on it. Most
blogs lead to a couple or twelve others, so once you get into an
unschooling blog-groove, you can just go and go without coming back
to my list. On my page (and many others, recently too) there's a new
function blogger provides, which is showing some recent posts on the
author's favorite blogs. On this page, it's the fourth thing down on
the left side. (You can also subscribe to blogs so that you get a
notification by mail if there's something new.)

http://sandradodd.blogspot.com

Laureen

Heya!

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:04 PM, prism7513 <penley75@...> wrote:
> I don't want to limit the sweets in my house, and THAT's where my
> problem is!

Yes you do.

I want to know what you do about a batch of cookies. If my
> child wants to eat them all the day I made them, do I let him?

You're extending a limited snapshot into his whole reality. It really
doesn't work that way.


> My kids eat plenty of good stuff, but I don't know how to make sure
> they don't get too many sweets. Did your kids gradually back off once
> you said "eat as many as you like" or do you only have a certain
> number of cookies available for that day (for everyone, not just the
> kids...)

I stopped off at a Persian deli after an appointment today, and bought
a box of pastries (little honey and rosewater soaked balls, pistachio
nougat, and zoolbia), a can of dolmas, and a jar of some spectacular
pickled garlic that I'd bought a jar of a few weeks ago, and the
family demolished (it's super yummy).

My three year old just asked for one of the balls, took a bite, and
then spotted the garlic. He handed me back the rest of the ball, and
asked me to give him a dish of the garlic.

My six year old finished the rest of the ball, and then shared a few
pieces of the garlic.

Zero control. Zero manipulation. Kids do like sweets, that's for sure.
But they also like other stuff. Don't limit them, or assume they're
limited.

> So help me - should I stop? Or will they learn what I never did (which
> would be wonderful, because then I wouldn't have to worry...) But I'm
> afraid I'm sabotaging them, and so the fault lies with me, not them.
> If so, I can learn to stop...

You've got a lot of unhappy going on here. May I make a
recommendation? Go ahead and make the tons of cookies. Bake until you
can't stand it any more, then allow yourself to share, really share,
every last cookie with your kids. Just enjoy it. No one ever died of
cookie overdose. Just let go of the fear and the worry and all the
whiteknuckling, and just eat some cookies. Bet they're really, really
good. And I bet you guys have a really, really good time.


--
~~L!

~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~
Writing here:
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/

Evolving here:
http://www.consciouswoman.org/
~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~ ~ * ~

Sandra Dodd

-=-If you have a wide variety of foods available
over time the kids will eat a perfectly balanced diet for their daily
changing needs.-=-

The eating and sleeping freedoms were practiced at our house from the
time Kirby was a baby. He was nursing on demand and sleeping with us
and we didn't "put him down" for naps. I read an article in
Mothering Magazine about kids choosing their own foods if they're
allowed to, and so we did that. One of the LLL leaders had told me
that a good time to give kids solid foods is when they're reaching
for them. <g>

I was impressed and surprised at his food choices. So by the time
Marty and Holly came along, I was an old hand at it. With my first I
WANTED to feed him baby food, and had a little manual baby-food-
grinder and powdered dried fruits and all kinds of stuff, but he
liked nursing lots more.

With Marty and Holly I really did wait until they reached for stuff,
and I was more likely to give them finger-mashed "people food" than
baby food.

By the time Holly was born we were unschooling Kirby, so it must have
seemed all of one cloth to her. And probably to Kirby too, since our
thoughts that he would go to school didn't translate into going to
school, in his life.

All of my kids think before they eat. They will not eat something
just because it smells good or looks good because someone worked hard
in the kitchen or wants them to eat it. They eat because they're
hungry, and they choose foods that they need. I'm not very good at
thinking about what I need, but they're GREAT at it. If something
smells good, they smell it and admire the scent. If something looks
good, they admire it and compliment the maker.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Did your kids gradually back off once you said "eat as many as you
like"


One person wrote that and another person wrote this:

-=-No need to say that. Just set and arrange the food you're offering
out for
them. Kids need no instructions or teaching about how to handle food. If
you say "eat as many as you like" that might sound like they
shouldn't think
of eating more or less or none at all. Just let food be available-=-

We never had either need at our house, because it started so early.
My kids usually ask if they can have something, but the question
involves whether it's saved for some other purpose, usually, or
whether I'm waiting for a certain time to set things out in some
formalish way.

Thinking back, though, it's not because I ever told them to ask.
They just ask because they're nice. If there are cookies in a cookie
jar, they don't need to ask, but if there are freshly baked brownies,
or a loaf of bread that hasn't been cut, they won't dig in. They'll
ask.

I don't just get their stuff without asking, either. I was in the
den today doing something and Marty asked if I minded if he played
Rock Band. Not only did I not mind, I thought it would be nice to
have the music, so I totally encouraged him to play it. The answer
wasn't going to be "NO, you can't play Rock Band." It might have
been "I was planning to watch a movie," or "I was waiting for [some
tv show] to come on. But if that had been my answer, I would've gone
to another room to do what I was going to do, because Rock Band isn't
portable.

So my kids ask, but it's not a "may I please have one" question.
It's an "Is there any problem if I..." question, and there's a
difference. It's the kind of question adults ask other adults.
It's the question people ask people.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

prism7513

>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn


Thank you, Roby, it does, very much! I find it interesting that you
can spot the growth spurts! How neat to be in tune with that! I found
with my last two pregnancies that I craved sweets, and mostly carbs.
With my first, I craved protein (first time ever I craved DEER meat!)

It's interesting that with this last pregnancy, not knowing I was
carrying twins (not verified, anyway - no ultrasound, and midwives
didn't see enough difference that couldn't be explained by the whole
"third baby's different" thing) I still ate tons of carbs, and not
protein, which is what the doctors push for women pregnant with twins.

I also crave more sweets while nursing. If sweets aren't as bad as we
think, then maybe it truly IS my bodies way of getting what it needs.
To eat fruit I'd have to eat LOTS of it to get the same calories as I
do from a cookie. Which is hard to do while taking care of two little
ones!

Thank you SO much for your story.

Deb