lilith_pouia

You have all asked for more specifics, so here are some. I don't have
rules about things like bedtimes and how much they play video games or
watch television, or other things like that. I have always believed in
trying not to immose unnecessary structure and control on my children.
My rules are more along the lines of: Don't run and scream through the
house,(people get hurt, and this disrespects other people's space) go
outside and do it. Clean up after yourself,(being responsible for your
own messes, this also disrespects other people's space) put your food
trash in the trash can, not on the floor. Don't throw things in the
house(people get hurt, toys, videos, books and windows get broken, and
this also disrespects other people's space). All these types of rules
have valid reasons behind them, that i do explain to my children over
and over again. It seems that just understanding why i tell them
something isn't enough for them. They will still run through the house
hurt themselves on furniture and then come screaming to me about it,
and worst of all, they will yell blame at the furniture for hurting
them, when THEY ran into It. I will say "It's not the dresser's fault
you got hurt. The dresser didn't move, you ran into it because you
were runing in the house and not paying attention to what you were
doing and what is around you".
My children break their things on purpose, hit and yell at each other,
call names, throw tantrums, refuse to do what i ask them. They don't
listen well and i have to say everything several times, just to get
their attention. I just don't understand how my husband and i have
caused all of it. We take care of our belongings. We don't hit and
scream at each other. In a lot of ways we set good examples. I will
admit that we both lose our tempers eventually and yell at the boys,
but never name calling, insults or cutdowns. And they aren't paying us
any attention at all before we get to the point of yelling. We have
both been reading a book lately titled Scream Free Parenting, and
trying to incorporate the methods it teaches into our parenting, but
you can't perfect anything over night.
I try to be responsible for my own actions and not blame others when
things don't go right for me. I try to respect other people and their
space, but my children don't seem to pick any of it up. My husband and
i don't cut each other, or the kids off in conversation, but they
interupt us talking constantly. When we accidently make mistakes
against other people we apologize immediately. I know most of their
behavior must be my fault, but i can only find certain mistakes i make
to link it to. I know i'm not just horrible. I know i have to be doing
some things right.
Here is an example of a normal situation that happened at my house. I
bought my kids big plastic magnifying glasses and a bug house, so they
could observe bugs. A couple weeks later i found one of the magnifying
glasses destroyed in the backyard. This really upset me. I asked my
older son who broke it, and he said that he and his borther had. I
asked why. He said he didn't know why. "Don't you want to be able to
look at bugs?" i asked. "Yes," he said. "Well then, why did you break
your magnifying glass?" i asked. " I don't know," he replied again.
"Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things, do
you want to just not have things, cause when you break your stuff you
just won't have any stuff, you're grounded." Then he proceeds to throw
a tantrum because i told him he was grounded from his playstation for
the rest of the day. I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
in his room and do it or get in time out. "I don't want to be
grounded!" he's yelling repeatedly. "Well i'm sorry, but if you don't
want to be grounded then don't break your stuff on purpose," i say. It
goes on and on until i'm telling him to get in time out because he
won't calm down or go in his room. When my children refuse to get in
time out we count to three. If we get to three before they move that's
when we spank. I don't see how i'm handling this situation
incorrectly. I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff, i explain how
it makes me feel, i listen to his feelings of not wanting to be
punished, but then tell him i understand his feelings, and that
through different actions he could have avoided that consequence.
Isn't that teaching them to be responsible for their actions? And had
i asked him to pick up the broken pieces on the ground he would have
tried to refuse doing that unless i had threatened him more. Obviously
i'm making mistakes, i just don't understand what they are or what to
do instead.

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 2:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> Don't run and scream through the
> house,(people get hurt, and this disrespects other people's space)

It doesn't "disrespect other people's space" more than grounding and
spanking does, so they probably aren't learning respect so much as to
try not to get caught.

-=-Clean up after yourself,(being responsible for your
own messes, this also disrespects other people's space) -=-

Ditto, above. They're young to clean up after themselves and "be
responsible for" their own messes. YOU chose to have children, so in
a way it's your mess. And if you continue with harsh punishments
(which I know you're trying to get away from, which is great), your
mess could turn into juvenile delinquency or to an abusive boyfriend
or husband, a mean friend or hateful neighbor. (I have a mean
neighbor who was undoubtedly treated badly by her own mother. I hear
her be hateful to her daughter and granddaughter without pause,
without apology, all the time.)

-=-Don't throw things in the
house(people get hurt, toys, videos, books and windows get broken, and
this also disrespects other people's space). -=-

MIGHT get broken.
MIGHT get hurt.
If you say "get broken" you're exaggerating. There are Nerf balls
that wouldn't break anything. Paper airplanes wouldn't break anything.

http://sandradodd.com/joyce/yes
That page has a great little bit by Joyce Fetteroll about saying yes
instead of no. Instead of "Don't throw things in the house" you
could say "Let's go to the park and throw things!" Boys NEED to
throw things. Boys' mothers need to help them find safe places and
good things to throw.

-=-. All these types of rules
have valid reasons behind them, that i do explain to my children over
and over again.-=-

If you're saying something over and over again, you must have said it
wrong the third or fourth time.

-=- It seems that just understanding why i tell them
something isn't enough for them.-=-

What makes you think they understand what you mean?
Or do you mean they understand why you tell them what to do so much?

-=-They will still run through the house
hurt themselves on furniture and then come screaming to me about it,
and worst of all, they will yell blame at the furniture for hurting
them, when THEY ran into It. I will say "It's not the dresser's fault
you got hurt. The dresser didn't move, you ran into it because you
were runing in the house and not paying attention to what you were
doing and what is around you".-=-

What if you sympathized and held the child and said "I'm sorry you
got hurt. Here..." and helped him the same way you would help an
adult guest who might have gotten hurt at your house? Ice pack, or
bandage, or soft place to sit, and sympathy? Then when he's calm and
feeling loved, and you're calm you *MIGHT* add "That's why we ask you
not to run in the house." But you probably wouldn't have to add any
such thing.

You add insult to injury, literally, by shaming him and telling him
it's his fault, as though you're glad he got hurt, and he deserved it.

-=-My children break their things on purpose, hit and yell at each
other,
call names, throw tantrums, refuse to do what i ask them. They don't
listen well and i have to say everything several times, just to get
their attention. -=-

Here's what it seems like to me:
They need better attention. They need LOTS of it. They need not to
be left alone so much, but to be with you and their dad more, either
all together or one-on-one in varying combinations. They need to be
spoken to the way you would speak to a friend, an adult, a stranger,
a guest.

You're not listening well. They're trying to get your attention, but
you just keep droning on with the same messages, instead of REALLY
listening to what they need, and being their partners in life.

-=-We take care of our belongings. We don't hit and
scream at each other. -=-

But you hit and scream at the boys and they're hitting and screaming.

-=-I will admit that we both lose our tempers eventually and yell at
the boys,
but never name calling, insults or cutdowns. -=-

If you were a guest in someone's home and he started yelling at you,
would it really matter exactly what the words were? The intent and
emotion would be clear.

-=-And they aren't paying us any attention at all before we get to
the point of yelling. -=-

Soon they might not be paying attention even when you are yelling.

-=-I try to be responsible for my own actions and not blame others when
things don't go right for me. -=-

Even when it involves your children?

-=-I try to respect other people and their
space, but my children don't seem to pick any of it up. -=-

You need to respect THEM, your children, and THEIR space.

http://sandradodd.com/respect

-=-When we accidently make mistakes
against other people we apologize immediately.-=-

Do you apologize to them after you ground them or yell at them or
spank them?
Or do you (I'm guessing from the way I was treated, and others have
been treated) blame them and say you wouldn't have yelled, but it's
their fault? You didn't want to spank them, but you had no choice?

-=-"Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things, do
you want to just not have things, cause when you break your stuff you
just won't have any stuff, you're grounded." Then he proceeds to throw
a tantrum because i told him he was grounded from his playstation for
the rest of the day-=-

I'm on his side.

Did you buy them magnifying glasses (they broke one and still had
one, so your frustration wasn't about them not being able to look at
bugs, really) so they could go and do something and leave you alone?
You didn't write about going to look at bugs with them. And it took
you two weeks to know it was broken, so you also probably didn't ask
how it went, or help them find a good place to keep their new stuff.

If your goal in life is to train your kids to do what you say, it's
not working out very well.

If your goal is going to be creating a homelife in which they can
feel safe and learn from everything around them, then "grounding him
from his playstation" isn't helpful.

If your goal is to have a good relationship with your children, and
you maintain your defense of the adversarial life you've set up, it
will go from the bad it is now to worse.

-=-I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
in his room and do it or get in time out.-=-

You send them away from you a lot. Lots. I think they need their
mom, and a nice mom, who's sympathetic and cares more about them than
about plastic magnifying glasses.

-=-I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff, i explain how
it makes me feel,-=-

You care WAY more about how it makes you feel than how you're making
him feel. That might be the crux of the problem. It's about you.
YOU want them to do this or that because of the way it makes you
feel. Your threats are cruel. You've made them small and
powerless. You can't perfect anything overnight, but you can abandon
cruelty in a heartbeat if you want to.


-=- i listen to his feelings of not wanting to be
punished, but then tell him i understand his feelings, and that
through different actions he could have avoided that consequence.-=-

It wasn't a "consequence," it was your chosen punishment. You're
making lots of choices and blaming your children for them.

People here can help!

Here are some other things to read. Please, do click on the links
above and read them. If you had met some of the kids talked about
there, you would read it avidly. Children and parents can have a
really sweet relationship, a gentle relationship, and it doesn't mean
they'll be running and screaming and breaking things. It can be better.


Sandra

Cally Brown

So one one hand you expect your children to understand the natural
consequences in cases like this...

> I will say "It's not the dresser's fault
>you got hurt. The dresser didn't move, you ran into it because you
>were runing in the house and not paying attention to what you were
>doing and what is around you".
>
But then you also expect them to understand consequences like this

>"Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
>can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things, do
>you want to just not have things, cause when you break your stuff you
>just won't have any stuff, you're grounded." Then he proceeds to throw
>a tantrum because i told him he was grounded from his playstation for
>the rest of the day.
>
There is absolutely no logical, natural or reasonable connection between
a broken magnifying glass and a playstation.

It also seems to me that there is way too much emphasis here on afixing
blame and fault to things.

When a child is hurting s/he needs love and a cuddle and a bandaid - not
a blaming lecture. When her / his needs for comfort are met, the child
will be free to learn the lesson about running inside all by his / her
self. But if his/her mind and heart are filled with anger and misery
becuase 'mother doesn't care about my hurt, only about furniture /
rules' there is no room for larning about the natural consequence of
running inside.

And as for the magnifer - the lesson will be learnt when the child wants
to use it. If the child never wants to use a magnifying glass, the loss
is unimportant. If they do, they will learn that smashing it was a not
such a good idea.

The other thing is, that it doesn't sound to me like they are breaking
their stuff, but rather they are breaking your stuff. The way you talk
about it, you don't actually regard it as their stuff, you haven't given
over ownership and therefore responsibility of it to them. Why should it
upset you so much if it was truely theirs in the first place? Why should
breaking one part of their stuff, mean that you take away something else
- the playstation - which should be theirs also, but obviously isn't. If
you gave your neighbour a present, and she broke it, would you rant at
her and then go and take away her playstation as punishment? I don't
think so.

>I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
>in his room and do it or get in time out. "I don't want to be
>grounded!" he's yelling repeatedly. "Well i'm sorry, but if you don't
>want to be grounded then don't break your stuff on purpose," i say. It
>goes on and on until i'm telling him to get in time out because he
>won't calm down or go in his room. When my children refuse to get in
>time out we count to three. If we get to three before they move that's
>when we spank. I don't see how i'm handling this situation
>incorrectly.
>
It's about power. It's about ownership. It's about this brave little boy
trying to retain ownership of himSelf. It's about you trying to retain
ownership of him and ervything else. I'm sure you don't see it that way.
I didn't see it that way either when I was using these sorts of
parenting techniques. But they don't work. Truely they don't. Even if
you beat him into apparent submission, he will eventually get old enough
to break away and will then have problems because he won't have had the
chance to develop understandings of the world and his inner being that
will help him make good choices.

or he will be so broken he won't be able to function without someone
telling him what to do.

> I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff, i explain how
>it makes me feel, i listen to his feelings of not wanting to be
>punished, but then tell him i understand his feelings, and that
>through different actions he could have avoided that consequence.
>
I don't actually see much evidence of you listening to their feelings at
all. When they hurt themselves on the furniture, you tell them it's
their fault.

When you found the broken glas, you didn't ask how it got broken - you
asked who broke it. You didn't ask how they felt about the broken glass,
you told them how you felt about it. You say you are sorry he's grounded
when he doesn't want to be, that you understand - then why do it? It
doesn't sound like you are sorry to me because you are the only one with
the power here - so why do it?

>Isn't that teaching them to be responsible for their actions? And had
>i asked him to pick up the broken pieces on the ground he would have
>tried to refuse doing that unless i had threatened him more. Obviously
>i'm making mistakes, i just don't understand what they are or what to
>do instead.
>
>
This is all about you, your feelings, your wants, and is teaching them
nothing except that the biggest person gets to make the calls, the
feelings of the biggest person are the only feelings that matter.

I've been that biggest person. Please stop now. The longer you live like
this the worse it gets. I nearly lost my eldest son because of this sort
of behaviour, I'm so glad that he has been a big enough person to give
me a second chance. Stop thinking about your own feelings, start really
getting in there and being with your kids, listening to them, giving to
them. I know you love them - but they only know they are loved if people
show it in very real ways. When you constantly treat them as faulty
beings that need to be made to become better people, they don't feel
loved, they don't feel good about themselves. I was one of those
not-good-enough children and I'm still battling, raging, though slowly
learning to believe in myself. My eldest son, especially was one of
those kids too. I've changed and grown and got heaps better over the
years. I'm not critcising because I don't understand. I'm saying this
because I DO understand only too well.

It doesn't work. Honestly.

Cally
mother of 4 sons aged 25, 22, 18, 15


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 9, 2006, at 2:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> > Don't run and scream through the
> > house,(people get hurt, and this disrespects other people's space)
>
> It doesn't "disrespect other people's space" more than grounding and
> spanking does, so they probably aren't learning respect so much as to
> try not to get caught.
>
> -=-Clean up after yourself,(being responsible for your
> own messes, this also disrespects other people's space) -=-
>
> Ditto, above. They're young to clean up after themselves and "be
> responsible for" their own messes. YOU chose to have children, so in
> a way it's your mess. And if you continue with harsh punishments
> (which I know you're trying to get away from, which is great), your
> mess could turn into juvenile delinquency or to an abusive boyfriend
> or husband, a mean friend or hateful neighbor. (I have a mean
> neighbor who was undoubtedly treated badly by her own mother. I hear
> her be hateful to her daughter and granddaughter without pause,
> without apology, all the time.)
>
> -=-Don't throw things in the
> house(people get hurt, toys, videos, books and windows get broken, and
> this also disrespects other people's space). -=-
>
> MIGHT get broken.
> MIGHT get hurt.
> If you say "get broken" you're exaggerating. There are Nerf balls
> that wouldn't break anything. Paper airplanes wouldn't break anything.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/yes
> That page has a great little bit by Joyce Fetteroll about saying yes
> instead of no. Instead of "Don't throw things in the house" you
> could say "Let's go to the park and throw things!" Boys NEED to
> throw things. Boys' mothers need to help them find safe places and
> good things to throw.
>
> -=-. All these types of rules
> have valid reasons behind them, that i do explain to my children over
> and over again.-=-
>
> If you're saying something over and over again, you must have said it
> wrong the third or fourth time.
>
> -=- It seems that just understanding why i tell them
> something isn't enough for them.-=-
>
> What makes you think they understand what you mean?
> Or do you mean they understand why you tell them what to do so much?
>
> -=-They will still run through the house
> hurt themselves on furniture and then come screaming to me about it,
> and worst of all, they will yell blame at the furniture for hurting
> them, when THEY ran into It. I will say "It's not the dresser's fault
> you got hurt. The dresser didn't move, you ran into it because you
> were runing in the house and not paying attention to what you were
> doing and what is around you".-=-
>
> What if you sympathized and held the child and said "I'm sorry you
> got hurt. Here..." and helped him the same way you would help an
> adult guest who might have gotten hurt at your house? Ice pack, or
> bandage, or soft place to sit, and sympathy? Then when he's calm and
> feeling loved, and you're calm you *MIGHT* add "That's why we ask you
> not to run in the house." But you probably wouldn't have to add any
> such thing.
>
> You add insult to injury, literally, by shaming him and telling him
> it's his fault, as though you're glad he got hurt, and he deserved it.
>
> -=-My children break their things on purpose, hit and yell at each
> other,
> call names, throw tantrums, refuse to do what i ask them. They don't
> listen well and i have to say everything several times, just to get
> their attention. -=-
>
> Here's what it seems like to me:
> They need better attention. They need LOTS of it. They need not to
> be left alone so much, but to be with you and their dad more, either
> all together or one-on-one in varying combinations. They need to be
> spoken to the way you would speak to a friend, an adult, a stranger,
> a guest.
>
> You're not listening well. They're trying to get your attention, but
> you just keep droning on with the same messages, instead of REALLY
> listening to what they need, and being their partners in life.
>
> -=-We take care of our belongings. We don't hit and
> scream at each other. -=-
>
> But you hit and scream at the boys and they're hitting and screaming.
>
> -=-I will admit that we both lose our tempers eventually and yell at
> the boys,
> but never name calling, insults or cutdowns. -=-
>
> If you were a guest in someone's home and he started yelling at you,
> would it really matter exactly what the words were? The intent and
> emotion would be clear.
>
> -=-And they aren't paying us any attention at all before we get to
> the point of yelling. -=-
>
> Soon they might not be paying attention even when you are yelling.
>
> -=-I try to be responsible for my own actions and not blame others when
> things don't go right for me. -=-
>
> Even when it involves your children?
>
> -=-I try to respect other people and their
> space, but my children don't seem to pick any of it up. -=-
>
> You need to respect THEM, your children, and THEIR space.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/respect
>
> -=-When we accidently make mistakes
> against other people we apologize immediately.-=-
>
> Do you apologize to them after you ground them or yell at them or
> spank them?
> Or do you (I'm guessing from the way I was treated, and others have
> been treated) blame them and say you wouldn't have yelled, but it's
> their fault? You didn't want to spank them, but you had no choice?
>
> -=-"Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
> can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things, do
> you want to just not have things, cause when you break your stuff you
> just won't have any stuff, you're grounded." Then he proceeds to throw
> a tantrum because i told him he was grounded from his playstation for
> the rest of the day-=-
>
> I'm on his side.
>
> Did you buy them magnifying glasses (they broke one and still had
> one, so your frustration wasn't about them not being able to look at
> bugs, really) so they could go and do something and leave you alone?
> You didn't write about going to look at bugs with them. And it took
> you two weeks to know it was broken, so you also probably didn't ask
> how it went, or help them find a good place to keep their new stuff.
>
> If your goal in life is to train your kids to do what you say, it's
> not working out very well.
>
> If your goal is going to be creating a homelife in which they can
> feel safe and learn from everything around them, then "grounding him
> from his playstation" isn't helpful.
>
> If your goal is to have a good relationship with your children, and
> you maintain your defense of the adversarial life you've set up, it
> will go from the bad it is now to worse.
>
> -=-I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
> in his room and do it or get in time out.-=-
>
> You send them away from you a lot. Lots. I think they need their
> mom, and a nice mom, who's sympathetic and cares more about them than
> about plastic magnifying glasses.
>
> -=-I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff, i explain how
> it makes me feel,-=-
>
> You care WAY more about how it makes you feel than how you're making
> him feel. That might be the crux of the problem. It's about you.
> YOU want them to do this or that because of the way it makes you
> feel. Your threats are cruel. You've made them small and
> powerless. You can't perfect anything overnight, but you can abandon
> cruelty in a heartbeat if you want to.
>
>
> -=- i listen to his feelings of not wanting to be
> punished, but then tell him i understand his feelings, and that
> through different actions he could have avoided that consequence.-=-
>
> It wasn't a "consequence," it was your chosen punishment. You're
> making lots of choices and blaming your children for them.
>
> People here can help!
>
> Here are some other things to read. Please, do click on the links
> above and read them. If you had met some of the kids talked about
> there, you would read it avidly. Children and parents can have a
> really sweet relationship, a gentle relationship, and it doesn't mean
> they'll be running and screaming and breaking things. It can be better.
>
>
> Sandra
>

I think you are completely misunderstanding me. I didn't say that i
don't comfort my children when they get hurt. Of course i do, but then
i also explain why it happened. Is it okay to let a child blame the
dresser that they got injured when you are trying to teach them self
responsibility? Or do you explain to them why it really happened?
Also, i think a seven year old boy is quite old enough to put a chip
bag in the trash instead of throwing it on the floor. I see two year
olds that can throw away trash. I'm with my children almost all the
time. I don't think you know enough about me to say that i'm not with
my children enough. I stay home, have a small home, and rarely have
even family babysit for me. I don't tell my children to go in their
room and scream because i don't want to listen to what they are
saying. It's that they become unreasonable to the point that i can't
even try explaining the situation to them over the yelling, and they
won't stop yelling to listen. Nerf balls and paper airplanes are
great, if that's what they decide to throw, but they throw whatever
they choose to. Books specifically really upset me, and i have tried
to explain to them how valuable books are. I think it's a bit harsh to
talk about having cruelty in my heart when i came here for advice. I
suppose i should just let my children scream, run, hit each other, and
break things and shouldn't punish them at all, and they will suddenly
learn to respect me, and they will stop running, screaming and hitting
and listen to me trying to explain things to them about how life
works. By the way, no, i don't blame the children, i think i already
stated that i realize i'm the one making the mistakes.

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Cally Brown <mjcmbrwn@...> wrote:
>
> So one one hand you expect your children to understand the natural
> consequences in cases like this...
>
> > I will say "It's not the dresser's fault
> >you got hurt. The dresser didn't move, you ran into it because you
> >were runing in the house and not paying attention to what you were
> >doing and what is around you".
> >
> But then you also expect them to understand consequences like this
>
> >"Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
> >can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things, do
> >you want to just not have things, cause when you break your stuff you
> >just won't have any stuff, you're grounded." Then he proceeds to throw
> >a tantrum because i told him he was grounded from his playstation for
> >the rest of the day.
> >
> There is absolutely no logical, natural or reasonable connection
between
> a broken magnifying glass and a playstation.
>
> It also seems to me that there is way too much emphasis here on afixing
> blame and fault to things.
>
> When a child is hurting s/he needs love and a cuddle and a bandaid -
not
> a blaming lecture. When her / his needs for comfort are met, the child
> will be free to learn the lesson about running inside all by his / her
> self. But if his/her mind and heart are filled with anger and misery
> becuase 'mother doesn't care about my hurt, only about furniture /
> rules' there is no room for larning about the natural consequence of
> running inside.
>
> And as for the magnifer - the lesson will be learnt when the child
wants
> to use it. If the child never wants to use a magnifying glass, the loss
> is unimportant. If they do, they will learn that smashing it was a not
> such a good idea.
>
> The other thing is, that it doesn't sound to me like they are breaking
> their stuff, but rather they are breaking your stuff. The way you talk
> about it, you don't actually regard it as their stuff, you haven't
given
> over ownership and therefore responsibility of it to them. Why
should it
> upset you so much if it was truely theirs in the first place? Why
should
> breaking one part of their stuff, mean that you take away something
else
> - the playstation - which should be theirs also, but obviously
isn't. If
> you gave your neighbour a present, and she broke it, would you rant at
> her and then go and take away her playstation as punishment? I don't
> think so.
>
> >I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
> >in his room and do it or get in time out. "I don't want to be
> >grounded!" he's yelling repeatedly. "Well i'm sorry, but if you don't
> >want to be grounded then don't break your stuff on purpose," i say. It
> >goes on and on until i'm telling him to get in time out because he
> >won't calm down or go in his room. When my children refuse to get in
> >time out we count to three. If we get to three before they move that's
> >when we spank. I don't see how i'm handling this situation
> >incorrectly.
> >
> It's about power. It's about ownership. It's about this brave little
boy
> trying to retain ownership of himSelf. It's about you trying to retain
> ownership of him and ervything else. I'm sure you don't see it that
way.
> I didn't see it that way either when I was using these sorts of
> parenting techniques. But they don't work. Truely they don't. Even if
> you beat him into apparent submission, he will eventually get old
enough
> to break away and will then have problems because he won't have had the
> chance to develop understandings of the world and his inner being that
> will help him make good choices.
>
> or he will be so broken he won't be able to function without someone
> telling him what to do.
>
> > I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff, i explain how
> >it makes me feel, i listen to his feelings of not wanting to be
> >punished, but then tell him i understand his feelings, and that
> >through different actions he could have avoided that consequence.
> >
> I don't actually see much evidence of you listening to their
feelings at
> all. When they hurt themselves on the furniture, you tell them it's
> their fault.
>
> When you found the broken glas, you didn't ask how it got broken - you
> asked who broke it. You didn't ask how they felt about the broken
glass,
> you told them how you felt about it. You say you are sorry he's
grounded
> when he doesn't want to be, that you understand - then why do it? It
> doesn't sound like you are sorry to me because you are the only one
with
> the power here - so why do it?
>
> >Isn't that teaching them to be responsible for their actions? And had
> >i asked him to pick up the broken pieces on the ground he would have
> >tried to refuse doing that unless i had threatened him more. Obviously
> >i'm making mistakes, i just don't understand what they are or what to
> >do instead.
> >
> >
> This is all about you, your feelings, your wants, and is teaching them
> nothing except that the biggest person gets to make the calls, the
> feelings of the biggest person are the only feelings that matter.
>
> I've been that biggest person. Please stop now. The longer you live
like
> this the worse it gets. I nearly lost my eldest son because of this
sort
> of behaviour, I'm so glad that he has been a big enough person to give
> me a second chance. Stop thinking about your own feelings, start really
> getting in there and being with your kids, listening to them, giving to
> them. I know you love them - but they only know they are loved if
people
> show it in very real ways. When you constantly treat them as faulty
> beings that need to be made to become better people, they don't feel
> loved, they don't feel good about themselves. I was one of those
> not-good-enough children and I'm still battling, raging, though slowly
> learning to believe in myself. My eldest son, especially was one of
> those kids too. I've changed and grown and got heaps better over the
> years. I'm not critcising because I don't understand. I'm saying this
> because I DO understand only too well.
>
> It doesn't work. Honestly.
>
> Cally
> mother of 4 sons aged 25, 22, 18, 15
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I'm not trying to teach them that everything is their fault. I'm
trying to teach them to take responsibility for it when something is
their fault. And like i stated in my last reply you are getting the
impression that i am not sympathetic with my children and that isn't
true. I think you explained the ownership thing well, in a way i can
understand. That has given me a lot to think about.

marji

--- In [email protected], "lilith_pouia"
<lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
>
> ...Here is an example of a normal situation that happened at my
> house. I bought my kids big plastic magnifying glasses and a bug
> house, so they could observe bugs.

Your idea or theirs?

> A couple weeks later i found one of the magnifying
> glasses destroyed in the backyard. This really upset me. I asked my
> older son who broke it, and he said that he and his borther had.

Why did it matter who broke it?

> I asked why.

Why did it matter? Could it have been accidental? Perhaps they were
using the magnifying glass in a way in which it was not intended,
which is actually very creative! Were they having fun? If so, it was
money well spent.

Also, asking a kid why they do things generally won't yield any
insightful information. When I was asked "why" when I was a kid, it
wasn't so my folks could have a greater understanding of me. It was
to shame me. "I don't know" was the best thing I could come up with;
I knew they wouldn't understand, and I knew that my reason was
probably not going to be good enough for them. Lots of times, I
really didn't know why. What does it matter?

> He said he didn't know why. "Don't you want to be able to look at
> bugs?" i asked. "Yes," he said. "Well then, why did you break
> your magnifying glass?" i asked.

Why did you ask a second time? Were you expecting a different answer?

> "Okay, well this really upsets me, i don't buy you things just so you
> can break them, you need to learn to think before you do things...

Let's be real here. Do you think this was a pre-meditated magnifying
glassicide? Your sons naturally learned that doing whatever it was
they were doing with the magnifying glass causes magnifying glasses to
break. But, the lesson is probably lost on them 'cause they're
smarting over the shame they felt by hurting your feelings.

> do you want to just not have things, cause when you break your
> stuff you just won't have any stuff

That just seems harsh to me.

> you're grounded. Then he proceeds to throw a tantrum because i
> told him he was grounded from his playstation for
> the rest of the day.

What!!?? What on earth does this "punishment" have to do with the
"crime"? But, lucky him 'cause now he can channel all his angry
feelings toward his jailer (you) rather than have to deal with any
other feelings he might have had about the magnifying glass.

This sounds arbitrary and mean to me.

> I tell him if he wants to throw a fit he can go
> in his room and do it or get in time out. "I don't want to be
> grounded!" he's yelling repeatedly. "Well i'm sorry, but if you don't
> want to be grounded then don't break your stuff on purpose," i say.

That sounds to me like a leap: How do you know he broke his stuff "on
purpose"? That's really pouring salt into the wound. Maybe he was
sad that glass broke. But you made this all about you and his willful
disregard for you and your efforts. Yuck!

> It goes on and on until i'm telling him to get in time out because
> he won't calm down or go in his room. When my children refuse to
> get in time out we count to three. If we get to three before they
> move that's when we spank.

I'm really sad for him and for you. That counting to three thing is
so demeaning!

> I don't see how i'm handling this situation
> incorrectly. I explain why he shouldn't break his stuff.

Did you ever break stuff? Can you recall how you felt about it? You
may have been blaming yourself for it and thinking "If only I hadn't
been so careless" or something like that. Well, now imagine someone
shaming you for something you already feel badly about. How is that
helpful? Wouldn't a little sympathy be much more effective in this
case and wouldn't you feel a surge of love and gratitude to the person
who was being sympathetic? I know I would.

I was brought up in a very authoritarian house when I was a kid, and
the big thing was that because of that my folks didn't trust me and I
didn't trust them. They actually covertly discouraged me from
telling the truth because I knew that the consequences of doing so
were unacceptable to me. But, when they asked me why I lied, I told
them "I don't know." And I didn't. But, now I do.

I will not repeat that cycle with my son. He's not afraid to tell me
the truth, and this stands us in very good stead, I think, for his
impending teenage years. I know we trust each other, and I know we
respect each other, and I know that he can tell me stuff that I
wouldn't have dreamed of telling my folks.

Sandra's post was really good, and she pointed out a lot of things
that I think will be helpful to you, if you can allow yourself a
moment of clarity.

I surely hope all this stuff helps!!

~Marji (really happy mom of one very cool 11-year-old son)

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 5:00 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Here are some other things to read. Please, do click on the links
> above and read them. If you had met some of the kids talked about
> there, you would read it avidly. Children and parents can have a
> really sweet relationship, a gentle relationship, and it doesn't mean
> they'll be running and screaming and breaking things. It can be
> better.


I meant to pull that first line, because both of the links in that
post led to other links.
But if you do want to read more things, the "yes" article and more
good stuff are here:
http://sandradodd.com/joycefetteroll

and lots of other families' lives show here:
http://sandradodd.com/help

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 5:15 PM, Cally Brown wrote:

> Why should
> breaking one part of their stuff, mean that you take away something
> else
> - the playstation - which should be theirs also, but obviously isn't.


-=-Why should
breaking one part of their stuff, mean that you take away something else
- the playstation - which should be theirs also, but obviously isn't.-=-

Interesting point. I think the fact that the playstation was taken
away is in conflict with this earlier statement:

-=- I don't have
rules about things like bedtimes and how much they play video games or
watch television, or other things like that. I have always believed in
trying not to immose unnecessary structure and control on my
children.-=-

Playing video games is contingent on not upsetting mom in some
unexpected way two weeks before (or whenever the magnifying glass was
broken).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 5:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> I don't think you know enough about me to say that i'm not with
> my children enough.

I know only what you chose to share with us, I know it's not going
well for you, and I know what has helped many families go from stress
to peace.

It's worth considering that the moms who are offering you free help
DO know what they're talking about. If they don't, you're no worse
off, but if they DO... your lives could improve immensely, if you
would look at your situation in a new light and consider making just
small changes.

-=-I don't tell my children to go in their
room and scream because i don't want to listen to what they are
saying. It's that they become unreasonable to the point that i can't
even try explaining the situation to them over the yelling, and they
won't stop yelling to listen.-=-

But it didn't start with yelling. It started several moves before
that. If you had listened to them earlier, there would be nothing to
yell about.

-=-Nerf balls and paper airplanes are
great, if that's what they decide to throw, but they throw whatever
they choose to. -=-

They're throwing things because there's not something more
interesting going on. You say you're spending lots of time with
them, but you weren't there when they started throwing things.

-=- I suppose i should just let my children scream, run, hit each
other, and
break things and shouldn't punish them at all, and they will suddenly
learn to respect me, and they will stop running, screaming and hitting
and listen to me trying to explain things to them about how life
works-=-

That seems designed to make us all feel stupid, like we've given you
ridiculous advice.
The facts are that many people here have children who aren't punished
at all, who respect their parents, who don't scream and hit (or whose
parents have lots of ways to respond to the very occasional screaming
and hitting that don't involve yelling, grounding, or counting down
to a spanking).

You have come upon some people who DO have suggestions you could use,
so please read more than you write for a day or two while you try to
process what's being offered.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 5:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> I think you are completely misunderstanding me.


I think you are living an unexamined life, and writing things you
can't even perceive clearly, and we're understanding you more clearly
than you're understanding yourself.

That's GOOD! You came here asking for help, and you've gotten more
help in one afternoon than most people could get if they paid $100 an
hour to some family therapist for months. Try not to lash out.

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

On Apr 9, 2006, at 1:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> Here is an example of a normal situation that happened at my house. I
> bought my kids big plastic magnifying glasses and a bug house, so they
> could observe bugs. A couple weeks later i found one of the magnifying
> glasses destroyed in the backyard. This really upset me. I asked my
> older son who broke it, and he said that he and his borther had. I
> asked why. He said he didn't know why. "Don't you want to be able to
> look at bugs?" i asked. "Yes," he said. "Well then, why did you break
> your magnifying glass?" i asked. " I don't know," he replied again.

Watching the plastic fly, hearing it crunch, seeing "what would happen
if..." may have been more interesting than bugs. My son *still* likes
to break plastic toys and other objects with a hammer; he's sixteen.
We had a couple of rules for "smashy smashy," as it came to be called:
wear eye protection (swimming goggles), and pick up the bits and throw
them in the trash can. He happily complied with those terms, and
countless broken toys, radios, cheap junk from gumball machines, etc.
have provided great joy in their last hour.

I won't comment on the rest of your post, as others have done so
already. I've known Joyce a very long time, and her "say yes"
philosophy benefitted my children and me in many ways. It makes life
so much better, for parents and for children.

Nancy
(one last thing ;-) I notice your son admitted that he *and* his
brother had smashed it; it sounds like they weren't fighting then, they
were cooperating in doing something of interest to both. It may not
have been what *you* would have chosen, but you had given the
magnifying glass to them, probably just assuming they would use it to
look at bugs, not to see what happens if you hit it with a hammer. If
I were you, I'd find more stuff to smash.

Tami

On the topic of stuff used for other than its intended purpose, and the
"smashy smashy" thing...

We have no yard at our house, but we do have huge balcony/patio spaces
that wrap most of the way around the house, both upstairs and down.
Downstairs, we have a sandbox...with purple sand. (Purple was all they had
at the PX when we got the sandbox, so purple is what we have...it looks nice
sprinkled on the brown carpet. :) ) Adam, (3) plays out there for hours
with the sand, the hose, and whatever else he can find. He usually takes
the lid off the sandbox and shovels sand into it and then adds water and
leaves, and twigs... We've asked him to keep the water out of the main part
of the sandbox as drying it out would be difficult because of ever present
rain and wind. He has always been happy to oblige...until today.

Today, I went outside to find the sandbox full of water (a few inches of
purple sand remained in the bottom) and two happy boys-- Adam and his baby
brother, Jomy (16 mos) doing "cannonballs" into the sandbox from the
lid..."Look Mama! We have a beach!" And so they did! Jomy was thrilled
with the feel of the wet sand between his toes, and sat in the "beachy"
water playing happily while Adam splashed him with his cannonballs. I don't
guess we'll be able to dry out the sand, but will spread it around the patio
wet and sweep it into the overgrown lot next door as it dries...that which
doesn't blow away first. I guess this summer we'll have a "water box" to
play in until we leave in July or August. No sense in replacing the sand if
they'd rather have water. If they want sand, maybe the PX will have blue
this year!

Since we do live on an island, I guess any beach is a good beach.

Tami, headed out with bucket in hand to bail out the water-box.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 9, 2006, at 7:38 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> Is it okay to let a child blame the
> dresser that they got injured when you are trying to teach them self
> responsibility? Or do you explain to them why it really happened?

They already understand that. Their actions are not telling you that
they don't understand. Their actions are telling you they need to run
more than they need to be free from possible hurt.

> My rules are more along the lines of: Don't run and scream through the
> house,(people get hurt, and this disrespects other people's space) go
> outside and do it.

Get How to Listen so Kids Will Talk and Talk So Kids Will Listen.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0380811960/qid=1144667728/sr=1-1/
ref=sr_1_1/002-5649649-0528030?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

It's a very easy read. Lots of different approaches.

I think what Tami said deserves repeating:

> we're telling you how your kids see you and your behavior.

The thing that book helped me to see was that my daughter was
behaving according to *her* perception of the world, and her
perception -- since she's a different person -- was just as valid as
mine. If I reacted to her according to my perception of the world she
wasn't going to understand. I needed to understand why she was
behaving as she was. What it was her behavior was telling me she
needed. And to *trust* that her needs were valid.

It's not that it was "right" for her to leave all the toys out all
the time. It's not that I was "right" to want them put away. It's
just that we had different goal and different needs. The way to
approach two humans who have conflicting wants and needs isn't for
the big person to make the little person do what the big person
thinks is "sensible". (Nor even to wear the little person down by
explaining why the big person is right and the little person is wrong!)

*Trust* that your children don't want to get hurt. It's not something
you need to teach them! But sometimes running (or whatever) is a
greater overriding want. Help them. Be their partner in getting what
they want. When they know that you're on their side, when they know
that you're there to help them get what *they* want, then they'll
listen to you.

Right now you're giving them what you think they should want, eg,
freedom from pain for instance. But to get them to hear what you're
saying you need to listen to what they're trying to tell you. And
help them get that.

There *isn't* just one path to a goal. If they're running in the
house breaking things, the answer isn't to let them. The answer is to
realize they need to run and get them out of the house. Is it always
possible to get them out of the house? No. But the more you set aside
what you're doing to make it possible, the more you put your
children's needs above other needs, the more they'll come to trust
that you really are working to help them.

If your kids trust that you will get them out of the house to help
them run -- trust built up from lots of experience with you following
through and rarely backing out (and apologizing when you do) -- then
it will be less difficult for them to stop running for a while than
when they hear "Don't run or you'll get hurt."

That doesn't mean always set aside other things. This isn't about
rules. It's about principles. It's about helping kids trust that your
goal is to help them.

The more we show that we're trying to help them get what they want,
the more they'll trust us and the more they'll accept the times when
we can't right away.

It's also not about becoming a slave to your kids and a nonentitiy
with no wants and needs of your own. It's about *wanting* to be their
partner. It's about putting them a first priority and working the
rest of life around them.

It's *really* easy to see housework, cooking, shopping as things that
need done and children's needs as something that we can set aside for
after. We can say our children's needs are our first priority but if
we *act* as if they aren't, if we are often saying "I have to do this
thing before I help you" then that says to the kids-- even if we
don't intend it to -- that our "thing" is more important than they are.

> I didn't say that i
> don't comfort my children when they get hurt. Of course i do, but then
> i also explain why it happened.

A long time ago, I wanted to back into the drive so I pulled over to
the side of the road to let the cars behind me pass. Unfortunately
the side of the road had a sharp granite curb sticking out from an
asphalt curb and I slashed the tire.

I went in and told my husband and he went out and checked out the
tire and said we'd have to go get a new one. I thought, "Wow, what a
great way to react to my very embarrassing and stupid mistake!" He
concentrated on the problem and how to solve it. Cool!

But then he said "You should be more careful next time."

And that just erased all the good he'd built up. What it said was
that he didn't trust me to learn from experience. He had to *tell* me
what I should learn.

(That incident stands out because he rarely tells me what I should
have learned!)

Trust your kids. Trust that they can learn from life. Do give them
information. (If you were about to cut off your hand with a table saw
you'd *want* someone to stop you!) But trust that -- even when they
aren't making the choices you would -- that they're intelligent
beings. If they're making different choices than you think are
"sensible" then there's something they want that's worth the
consequences.

Yes, we should be giving our kids information so they can make
choices that move them towards what they want. But if we've given
them the information and they're still doing something that seems
wrong to you, then either 1) they aren't ready to understand or 2)
they want something else that overrides the information.

It sounds like they need to run more than they need to avoid getting
hurt. The answer isn't to tell them how not to get hurt but to give
them more opportunities to run, and accept the fact that when they're
running in the house that running is more important to them at the
moment and that it's worth it to them that they might get hurt.

Life is about recognizing the consequences of our choices and
choosing to put up with some consequences to get something better.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

s.waynforth

>
>
> Is it okay to let a child blame the
> dresser that they got injured when you are trying to teach them self
> responsibility?

We blame the dresser. Yelling at the dresser helps, and makes it funny
and stops it from hurting so much. Linnaea (6) knows the dresser didn't
really jump out and bump her, but since it is an inanimate object it
doesn't hurt it to be yelled at.


> Or do you explain to them why it really happened?
They know why, they were there, they saw what happened. I tend to just
sweep them in my arms and cuddle them. If it is an interpersonal
conflict, as opposed to them against the dresser I offer to help, I try
distractions, I try compromise. Sometimes it is because they're hungry
or tired, and so I offer food and maybe a movie or something to relax
against. Sometimes it is because beating the starship fleet on the
gamecube is so frustratingly impossible that it just makes the rest of
the world dark and wrong. So, I read from the book (if we have a prima
guide) or look up hints and cheats on the internet or I just offer to
help the one who isn't frustrated, usually Linnaea as she likes games
she has greater competence in than does Simon (9 tomorrow!!), find
something else to do, something that isn't right there watching Simon
grow so frustrated that he just can't do what he wants to do that he
lashes out at her.

> Also, i think a seven year old boy is quite old enough to put a chip
> bag in the trash instead of throwing it on the floor. I see two year
> olds that can throw away trash.

I'm not always old enough at 38 to make sure that all the chips go in
the trash or my mouth. Sometimes they end up on my shirt front or on the
floor around me 'cause I'm just not paying attention. Sometimes David
picks them up for me. He does that a lot when I cook, I'm not a very
tidy cook. More often I pick up the chips, or the bags they came in.
Simon and Linnaea have a favorite seat in the house. It's on the back of
the sofa nearest the television next to the radiator. It's warm and cozy
and the center of visual entertainment. They tend to eat there. So,
behind the sofa it is often a bit crumby and gross. Knowing that,
knowing that it wasn't conscious on their part, it is standard operating
procedure to move the couch whenever we clean and vacuum behind it. If I
see them throw a bag on the floor I'll ask if they could take it to the
trash, or say "empty packets go in the trash" or something like that. Or
I might just pick it up and put it in the trash. It depends on if I was
moving in the first place, it depends on what they were doing as well.

> I don't tell my children to go in their
> room and scream because i don't want to listen to what they are
> saying. It's that they become unreasonable to the point that i can't
> even try explaining the situation to them over the yelling, and they
> won't stop yelling to listen.

Maybe if you helped them get through that moment, just be there, or walk
away from them, or whatever needs to happen in that moment and then talk
about it later. If David (dh) snaps at me at a bad moment, says I told
you so or talks about how I could have done something better while I'm
still coping with the badness that happened, I'm really far more likely
to snap at him then listen. It is very easy for me to turn my
frustration in that moment outward. If, however, we talk about it later,
talk about what might have worked after I've relaxed about it, I'm far
more receptive. I've found that with Simon and Linnaea waiting for a
better moment to talk about ways to deal with whatever happened helps a
lot, just like it does with me. Simon is the more sensitive of the two
of them, the more likely to be upset by what he sees as his own personal
failings. If I can offer him tools for getting through a situation, ways
of repairing a mistake he made, like when he deleted Linnaea's Mario
dancemat memory from the memory card, it helps him to see a way out.
Otherwise it feels, for him, like he cannot ever recover from such a
horrible thing. If I put him in a time out until he calmed down enough,
it would be adding insult to injury. I have suggested to him that he
might want to calm down, go upstairs for a little bit, remove himself
from what is making him so upset. I've done the same with Linnaea, but
for her separation from people is far more punitive than it is for
Simon. So, it isn't always a helpful course of action. I write this as
though these moments are calm moments which is false. These are moments
of intense unhappiness, I hate discord between the two of them. I hate
discord between the four of us for that matter. And when it happens, I
am ever so actively looking for solutions. Sometimes, the hardest thing
for me, the best thing to do is let whoever is hurting come to a point
where they are ready to be helped. And that may just mean giving them
space. Not forcing them to take it, but getting Simon or Linnaea to move
with me somewhere else so that the hurt person can lick their wounds and
decide when they want to reach out again.


> Nerf balls and paper airplanes are
> great, if that's what they decide to throw, but they throw whatever
> they choose to.
Then get a good book of how to make paper airplanes, or look on-line for
planes, and whenever they start to throw something that you don't like
make a plane. Put a nerf ball in their hands. Make parachutes and drop
them out of the windows with them, or down from the banister. Distract
them with the appropriate toy and use that.



> Books specifically really upset me, and i have tried
> to explain to them how valuable books are.

Books aren't inherently valuable. And are relatively easy to replace.
But, getting hit upside the head by the corner of a hardback edition of
anything hurts. Books may be valuable to you, but maybe other things are
more valuable to them. Books aren't that valuable to me unless they
contain something I want from them. I have a couple of books that were
my grandmother's that I am quite fond of, so I don't put them in
accessible places. But otherwise, while I enjoy books, I don't hold them
in higher esteem than I do my good relationship with my children .

> I suppose i should just let my children scream, run, hit each other, and
> break things and shouldn't punish them at all, and they will suddenly
> learn to respect me, and they will stop running, screaming and hitting
> and listen to me trying to explain things to them about how life
> works.

You could. But it wouldn't work. I don't let Simon and Linnaea hit each
other and break things. I don't punish them. I let them scream and run.
If it drives me nuts in the house I'll often offer them other places to
run and scream. If they are hitting each other, I help them to find
other ways to communicate their needs. If they break something, as
Linnaea just did with our Olympus camera (damn, damn, damn) I spend a
good deal of time trying to fix it, I try and help David be calm, as he
is very sensitive to things getting broken, and we learn to live without
the broken thing.


> By the way, no, i don't blame the children, i think i already
> stated that i realize i'm the one making the mistakes.


And we are just trying to help you find a different way forward.

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 10, 2006, at 6:35 AM, s.waynforth wrote:

> > Or do you explain to them why it really happened?
> They know why, they were there, they saw what happened.


Sometimes things happen really fast and people don't know. Yesterday
I got a freak paper cut (scrape, gouge) in the inside bend of my arm,
on the thin skin. OUCH! Keith was there and we discussed how it
happened. I showed it to the kids and they wanted to know. They
were sympathetic. It will probably help something like that not
happen again (though it would be hard to reproduce the situation).

When the kids were little and fell and cried, we would comfort them
and then go back to the place and show them what they tripped over,
or why the thing they were standing on tipped, or whatever it was.
It was just informational, and so that the world seemed
understandable and sensible to them, not just randomly dangerous.
And because we did that from the time they were toddlers, they trust
us when we tell them things like brakes might not work as well on wet
days, or that peer pressure to drink alcohol is worth standing up to,
or whatever practical safety advice we feel the need to share.

We want them to be comfortable and confident and safe.

Sandra

s.waynforth

Yeah, that's true, if something doesn't make causal sense, like why did
I fall over? it helps to go back and examine the path so that you can
negotiate it more easily next time. I was responding to the idea that it
was wrong to blame an inanimate object for your injury rather than
taking the blame on your own shoulders. You can take it to the level of
the absurd, where you lecture the dresser for moving so inexplicable
into the path of your careening child. Or not, but it is good fun here.

Schuyler

P.S. I hate paper cuts. Ouch. And that bit can get sweaty, oooh salty
paper cuts, double ouch.


Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 6:35 AM, s.waynforth wrote:
>
> > > Or do you explain to them why it really happened?
> > They know why, they were there, they saw what happened.
>
>
> Sometimes things happen really fast and people don't know. Yesterday
> I got a freak paper cut (scrape, gouge) in the inside bend of my arm,
> on the thin skin. OUCH! Keith was there and we discussed how it
> happened. I showed it to the kids and they wanted to know. They
> were sympathetic. It will probably help something like that not
> happen again (though it would be hard to reproduce the situation).
>
> When the kids were little and fell and cried, we would comfort them
> and then go back to the place and show them what they tripped over,
> or why the thing they were standing on tipped, or whatever it was.
> It was just informational, and so that the world seemed
> understandable and sensible to them, not just randomly dangerous.
> And because we did that from the time they were toddlers, they trust
> us when we tell them things like brakes might not work as well on wet
> days, or that peer pressure to drink alcohol is worth standing up to,
> or whatever practical safety advice we feel the need to share.
>
> We want them to be comfortable and confident and safe.
>
> Sandra
>
>
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Sandra Dodd

On Apr 10, 2006, at 9:02 AM, s.waynforth wrote:

> I was responding to the idea that it
> was wrong to blame an inanimate object for your injury rather than
> taking the blame on your own shoulders.


Sometimes it was an object, though. Finding out what it was that
slid or slipped or bent of was too wet or weak isn't blaming the
thing or the kid either.

And yeah, it's more fun to blame the cabinet door for hitting me in
the head than to blame myself for not closing it well. <g> No sense
getting mad at anything in such cases.

Sandra

Jennifer Greatrex

Hello Everyone,
I'm new to the group and am just catching up on posts. I have found all the responses to be very interesting....
Along the lines of trying to put yourself in your children's shoes/minds/bodies I have learned that my children have sensory integration issues ( see "the out of sinc child"), and food allergies .
Understanding what is going on for them physiologically has been a tremendous help . Maybe your kids are looking for sensory feedback and need to do it so much because their bodies just don't process it in the way some others do. Maybe they're seemingly destructive/unco-operative behavior comes from a reaction to a substance in food....'poison" can make you behave in pretty wild ways! I can attest to the dramatic difference that it can make. I have 2 children (3 &6) on the mild end of the autism spectrum , questioning why/what could be going on for you/ being a detective on their behalf sometimes and always striving to come from a place of respect and sovereignty will help you all. Feel free to ask more if any of this resonates with you....
jennifer

Jennifer Greatrex
Doctor of Homeopathic Medicine
Doctor of Medical Heilkunst
greastrom@...

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