Jen and Scott Lynch

I am looking for ideas about what to say when another parent talks
about "grounding" their kids or "revoking privileges" or "time outs."
I am looking for ways to open a conversation with these parents about a
different way to be with their kids. I was never spanked, grounded,
sent to my room, given a time out etc. I was respected as a child and
it allowed me to grow into a confident and happy woman. I parent Evie
the same way I was parented and she doesn't go to school. Our life is
great and as I hear the complaints and troubles of others I want to
offer a new perspective. These are usually other homeschooling
families.

I am not saying we lead the perfect life or have all the answers or
think everyone should do things exactly as we do (although sometimes I
think that too! LOL!) I was really upset today by some friends talking
about the latest way they were punishing their kids and why. Where is
the respect? Where is the partnership? What can I say? I don't want
to come off as a "know-it-all" but I can't be silent anymore. Any
ideas?

Feeling brave,

Jen
http://circletheworld.blogspot.com

lora kirkpatrick

Hi Jen, I hate to be a bother but after reading your question on this issue, I have a question for you that I hope whole heartedly you can answer for me. I have three children b/g twins age 7 and a 3 year old daughter who I homeschool ( they have never went to school). I love doing this with all my heart and I love my children and respect them as well. As a child I was brought up the "normal" way with grounding etc and said I wanted it to be different for my children however now that I have them I am having trouble knowing exactly what to do. The issues are, they fight among each other, my 7 year old daughter is mouthy etc. They are basically very good kids and everyone comments on how well behaved etc. they are but I find myself threatening to take things away etc. and yelling. What comments do you have for me or what suggestes I quess is what I am asking for. I feel I am doing something wrong if I feel the need to yell, or take things away or threaten to anyway. Thank
you again for listening and as far as your question, I think some of those parents may welcome your advise because I sure would. (some of them may actually want your advice and feel funning asking you).
Thanks again.
Lori

Jen and Scott Lynch <j.slynch@...> wrote: I am looking for ideas about what to say when another parent talks
about "grounding" their kids or "revoking privileges" or "time outs."
I am looking for ways to open a conversation with these parents about a
different way to be with their kids. I was never spanked, grounded,
sent to my room, given a time out etc. I was respected as a child and
it allowed me to grow into a confident and happy woman. I parent Evie
the same way I was parented and she doesn't go to school. Our life is
great and as I hear the complaints and troubles of others I want to
offer a new perspective. These are usually other homeschooling
families.

I am not saying we lead the perfect life or have all the answers or
think everyone should do things exactly as we do (although sometimes I
think that too! LOL!) I was really upset today by some friends talking
about the latest way they were punishing their kids and why. Where is
the respect? Where is the partnership? What can I say? I don't want
to come off as a "know-it-all" but I can't be silent anymore. Any
ideas?

Feeling brave,

Jen
http://circletheworld.blogspot.com


SPONSORED LINKS
Unschooling Attachment parenting John holt Parenting magazine Single parenting

---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


---------------------------------





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesa ODaniel

Hi, I'm pretty new (in Los Angeles, 34, 1 son - 22 months), so I hope you
don't mind me posting a response here...

I find that asking questions often helps people begin to realize that maybe
there are better ways to handle something. I have chosen this route with my
brother who has been through all sorts of ways to punish his daughters (my
nieces). One time they were at my home and they spanked one of the girls for
doing something as innocuous as spilling some sand on my carpet from a
little zen garden we had on the coffee table (I wish that were the worst
thing on my carpet!). Since my brothers and I were all physically abused as
children, I was mortified and after the girls went to bed I couldn't help
myself from telling him and his wife how much it bothered me. Of course
their response was "it was just a light pat - it didn't hurt her". I only
referred to my own experiences at that point and told them how I didn't
remember any of the pain from the abuse as a child but that I can never
forget the embarrassment, emotional pain and sadness at having someone I
thought was supposed to love and protect me begin hitting me or pulling my
hair, etc. I just said that even though I would not choose to parent the
same way, I realized that I didn't have a right to tell them how to raise
their children, but that I could not allow that sort of response to occur in
our home. They agreed and then later I think it sunk in and they turned to
me and said, "well what are we supposed to do? She never behaves!" My only
comment was "how is your current approach working? is it effective in
getting her to 'behave'?" Of course, they had no response but later they
started thinking of other ways to respond to behavior they didn't like and
no longer physically punish their children. Maybe soon they'll begin looking
at a completely different way of approaching their children rather than from
any punishment standpoint, but I consider that step a start. When will
people realize that it just doesn't work?

Asking open-ended questions about some other hot-button issues
(bottle-feeding, elective medicated births, etc.) seems to have a disarming
effect rather than causing a confrontational relationship that might
alienate you from other parents (I've made that mistake before).

Hope this helps somewhat!



Lesa O'Daniel, AAHCC
Instructor, Bradley Method� of Natural Childbirth
323-541-5515
http://www.bradleybirth.com/ndweb.asp?ID=O123&Count=N





>From: Jen and Scott Lynch <j.slynch@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Suggesting other ways
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:42:22 -0600
>
>I am looking for ideas about what to say when another parent talks
>about "grounding" their kids or "revoking privileges" or "time outs."
>I am looking for ways to open a conversation with these parents about a
>different way to be with their kids. I was never spanked, grounded,
>sent to my room, given a time out etc. I was respected as a child and
>it allowed me to grow into a confident and happy woman. I parent Evie
>the same way I was parented and she doesn't go to school. Our life is
>great and as I hear the complaints and troubles of others I want to
>offer a new perspective. These are usually other homeschooling
>families.
>
>I am not saying we lead the perfect life or have all the answers or
>think everyone should do things exactly as we do (although sometimes I
>think that too! LOL!) I was really upset today by some friends talking
>about the latest way they were punishing their kids and why. Where is
>the respect? Where is the partnership? What can I say? I don't want
>to come off as a "know-it-all" but I can't be silent anymore. Any
>ideas?
>
>Feeling brave,
>
>Jen
>http://circletheworld.blogspot.com

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> -=-Our life is
> great and as I hear the complaints and troubles of others I want to
> offer a new perspective. These are usually other homeschooling
> families.-=-


I got jumped hard by several know-littles on a local homeschooling
list that I had created and maintained for years. Someone, thinking
it might be cute or helpful, I guess, posted a quote something like
raising teens was like trying to nail jello to a tree, and it went on
a bit longer, I think. I responded that it wasn't that way with
unschooled teens; my kids were great. I got a flurry of criticism
for thinking unschooling was all that. But it IS! I was telling the
simple truth.

So I left that list and am only on unschooling lists now.

It's casting pearls before swine, to tell people about unschooling
when they're in the throes of disdainful self-righteousness about
what good parents they are when they're disrespectful of their
children, especially when they only turn around and insult you for it.

But on the other hand, you might come up with some stock phrases to
put out just a little, and if they're interested they'll ask, and if
they want to reaffirm their superiority they'll just roll their eyes
or snort. Just be ready to perceive their little signals about
whether they think your statement is an intro or just a mark of your
ignorance.

If they're SURE they're bigger and smarter than children, they'd like
to think they're bigger and smarter than people who defend children,
so you'll just put yourself in the kids' category in their mind,
maybe, and they will treat you disrespectfully too.

But all that dumped out, I am rarely silent either. I have said "It
doesn't have to be that way," or "I know people who used to be that
way but changed."

Then it's their move. Soft face and interested, or eye rolling and
snorting?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 28, 2006, at 6:24 PM, Lesa ODaniel wrote:

> They agreed and then later I think it sunk in and they turned to
> me and said, "well what are we supposed to do? She never behaves!"


Pam Sorooshian runs a list to help people figure out what to do
instead of spanking.
It's linked here, and it might be a webpage others might want to
remember. It's got an easy address, I think. (Easy for me, anyway. <g>)

http://sandradodd.com/spanking
I don't know the list personally, but I do know they don't debate
spanking but they discuss how to help kids learn how to be without
threats or physical punishments.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], lora kirkpatrick
<loribrooketimothy@...> wrote:
>
What comments do you have for me or what suggestes I quess is what
I am asking for. I feel I am doing something wrong if I feel the
need to yell, or take things away or threaten to anyway. Thank
> you again for listening and as far as your question, I think some
of those parents may welcome your advise because I sure would.
(some of them may actually want your advice and feel funning asking
you).

I am going to butt in here Lori -- I HIGHLY recommend that you read
Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn. It will answer all your
questions! And, from experience, it totally transformed our
household (I have B6, G4, B1), it took a few weeks, but things are
completely different and much more peaceful around here since I read
that book (last summer). One word of advice: you have to be
completely open to a paradigm shift, because what he says makes so
much sense, but goes against everything most of us have been raised
to believe about parenting and children. Oh, and I recommend that
DH reads it too (I am still working on this one <g>).

If you want to really get it into your system, follow it up with
Kohn's older book Punished by Rewards.

Cathy

[email protected]

What about just saying what you told us? Something like, "You know, my
parents never spanked, grounded, or sent us to our rooms...never had a time out
in my life. And for some reason, it really worked! I know there's a lot of
people who believe in that stuff, but I turned out pretty OK without it. I
don't do it with my kids either, and you know, it seems to be working pretty
well. Were you spanked as a kid?"

If they say "yes" maybe ask them if they think it worked, or how it made
them feel, etc. It's really easy to talk about these things if you "disguise"
it with letting them talk about themselves, and their lives. Taking the "you
should" out of it takes a lot of the defensiveness they would react with
away. Then you can somehow work it round to letting them know how you do things
and how happy you are about your life and your kid's lives.

Of course, they could snort and roll their eyes, like Sandra said...and they
probably will :o) But at least you can feel like you've done your good deed
for the day by mentioning there are other ways. You might decide it's
easier to be around people who are more like you.

Nancy B.


>>>In a message dated 2/28/2006 7:44:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
j.slynch@... writes:

I am looking for ideas about what to say when another parent talks
about "grounding" their kids or "revoking privileges" or "time outs."
I am looking for ways to open a conversation with these parents about a
different way to be with their kids. I was never spanked, grounded,
sent to my room, given a time out etc. I was respected as a child and
it allowed me to grow into a confident and happy woman. I parent Evie
the same way I was parented and she doesn't go to school. Our life is
great and as I hear the complaints and troubles of others I want to
offer a new perspective. These are usually other homeschooling
families.

I am not saying we lead the perfect life or have all the answers or
think everyone should do things exactly as we do (although sometimes I
think that too! LOL!) I was really upset today by some friends talking
about the latest way they were punishing their kids and why. Where is
the respect? Where is the partnership? What can I say? I don't want
to come off as a "know-it-all" but I can't be silent anymore. Any
ideas?

Feeling brave,

Jen
_http://circletheworld.blogspot.com_ (http://circletheworld.blogspot.com) <<<






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jen and Scott Lynch

On Mar 1, 2006, at 4:16 PM, Lori wrote:

> As a child I was brought up the "normal" way with grounding etc and
> said I wanted it to be different for my children however now that I
> have them I am having trouble knowing exactly what to do. The issues
> are, they fight among each other, my 7 year old daughter is mouthy
> etc. They are basically very good kids and everyone comments on how
> well behaved etc. they are but I find myself threatening to take
> things away etc. and yelling. What comments do you have for me or
> what suggestes I quess is what I am asking for. I feel I am doing
> something wrong if I feel the need to yell, or take things away or
> threaten to anyway. Thank
> you again for listening and as far as your question, I think some of
> those parents may welcome your advise because I sure would. (some of
> them may actually want your advice and feel funning asking you).
>

To be perfectly honest I don't know what to say. Does yelling work?
Does it make you feel good? Your kids? If not, just stop. I liked
what someone else responded about asking open-ended questions. I am a
former doula and La Leche League Leader and stopped both those
activities primarily because I wanted to spend all my time with my
daughter, but also because I didn't want to be constrained in what I
was able to say. I want to say what I believe to be true . . . all of
it!

As for suggestions of alternatives I love the following two websites:

http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Thank you all for the suggestions you have given me. I feel I have a
few more tools for my campaign and a bit more bravery too.

Best,
Jen
http://www.circletheworld.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 1, 2006, at 4:09 PM, Jen and Scott Lynch wrote:

> To be perfectly honest I don't know what to say. Does yelling work?
> Does it make you feel good? Your kids? If not, just stop.


A very effective thing to do would be to ask a question like that in
the same tone and at the same volume the other parent has just used.
If he yells at his child, "I said to STOP IT!" you could imitate him
with 'Why are you YELLING!?" Or something in the same rhythm. It
would probably stun him long enough for you to say, "Oh, I'm sorry.
I never talk to anyone that way, not adults or kids. Just thought
you might not realize how you sounded."

I've done mini-versions of that with my kids when they were using a
harsh tone of voice to one of the other kids (or me) and I didn't
want to talk about it but I still wanted them to hear it.

Now I'll look for an opportunity to do it to someone else. I did it
over the fence to my unseeable neighbors once, mostly for Holly's
benefit. She was yelling at her kids in nasty, mean tones of voice,
and I yelled "STOP YELLING AT THEM!" It got very quiet over there.
<g> We tried not to laugh out loud, so we just covered our mouths
and giggled.

I still lose my temper, but it's never as big or as quick as it used
to be. Partly I've practiced, partly I'm older, partly my kids are
not constrained from saying "Lighten up, mom!" I have a confession
of a very bad mom moment in here:

http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything

It turned out well in the longrun.

Sandra

Ticia

> http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything
>
> It turned out well in the longrun.
>
> Sandra
>

I have had to go and archive back a few thoughts ;)...

I am going to do my best to articulate how important this post was and
how the "zeneverything" post was meaningful to me.

I often feel that I'm an "in the trenches" Mommy lately. First off I
have a 7 yr old, a 3 yr old and a baby. I feel pulled in all sorts of
ways. I look at friends who are *just* embarking on their parenting
"life" and hear/see their ideal/ideas and thoughts and don't seem to
have much patience for their "hard" stuff. Then I talk to others whom
I *completely* identify with in the moment with similar aged children.
Lastly, I have my friends who are so far past this "childhood" and
with grown children or teenagers. When I'm feeling "lost" or confused
with my choices I have to both look behind and then forward to get to
*my* present. We've had a busy last few months.I am an artist with
paint, pastel, pencil, etc...not with words, so you'll have to bear
with me ;).

In the last 6 mos we have uprooted, moved out of state, had a baby,
and now my dh works at home. Okay, along with the "move out of state"
we have moved out of So CA (a place of vague seasonal awareness)and to
WA (a place of acute! seasonal awareness). My usual comfort of friends
with like minds have all but vanished. Last week I found them BTW, in
a small, but intimate group (hope abounds!).

Sooooo, my main point of this whole post is that I *NEED* to hear
those confessions that Sandra put out there. The ones where others
have slipped up and been angry (out of pure frustration, tiredness,
whatever). It isn't that they slipped up or did angry wrong things
that gives me hope, it is the compassion and caring that goes into the
problem solving or the resolution that gives me inspiration.

They help to make or mold me in-TO a better parent. I need to know
you all messed up along the way because of a VERY different past or
whatever it was... :( I appreciate the same honesty and
forthrightness...(is that a word?). It is so cathartic to hear this
*side* of your parenting journey. It sounds like I'm trying to shoot
for a lower goal of some weird "misery loves company" ideal, but
truely it makes me think...ok these people are real, they make
mistakes and tell their children they (themselves) were wrong and life
goes on in a better more connected way.

Am I babbling a mental confusion of my convoluted thoughts or is this
just something you have heard before and have a nice article for....;)
cuzzz I needs ta hear it ch'all ;).

Thoughtfully,
Ticia

Gold Standard

>>I *NEED* to hear
>>those confessions that Sandra put out there.<<

Hi Ticia,

First off, I appreciate your honesty (and bravery!) in asking this question.
I think we all breathe a little sigh of relief (at least I do) when I hear
about the mistakes of people I admire and respect. And how the mistake was
handled. You're right, it reminds us that we are all human.

That said, I personally don't want to DWELL on my mistakes, but can tell you
that at least weekly, and sometimes more often, I misstep in interacting
with my child(ren). Usually it is quite obvious, as by now we have a pretty
smooth situation as a family. My kids have no problem pointing out a
misstep, for sure (and they are often kind about such a thing). Sometimes
it's something more subtle, and I will just "feel" like I did something
wrong without really knowing what until I replay the situation.

My kids are teenagers, the oldest is 17, and we have been unschooling for
quite some time. So one point is that the questioning and refining and
conscientious thought haven't ended for me...I'm not sure that any of us are
completely "there" all the time. Part of unschooling is the commitment as
parents to continue to think and be mindful of how we are acting with our
children, and to be humble in acknowledging when we have made a mistake, and
to make appropriate adjustments. It is a process. Most of us have many years
of conditioning from our own upbringings, and for me, the triggers still
come sometimes. But because I do have a commitment to be respectful and
supportive of my children always, it is pretty easy to make changes. In fact
joyful.

Sometimes I get in "reactive" mode, rather than "responsive" or even
"reflective" mode, both of which seem to serve my children and me better
(except when there is a fire or a swerving car coming our way). In
particular, the whole time thing, you know...when someone has to be
somewhere by a certain time and yet people aren't ready...that sometimes
makes me start the tape "Come on! Let's go! We all had a whole hour to get
ready...why aren't you all in the car??" kinda thing. It's a response from
my days of needing to please others, as well as what was said to me as a
child.

So I do think it is important and respectful to get to a place on time to
our best ability when someone else is depending on it...it seems respectful
to do our best to meet an agreement like this with another person. But
instead of the demeaning language and tone that I heard growing up, I have
replaced it with doing my best to help each and every person in whatever way
they may need get into the car. I remind a child to please use the restroom
15 minutes before we leave...the child who often goes into the bathroom when
we are supposed to be going out the door. And make sure that everyone's
shoes are lined up at the door. And load the car with whatever "stuff" is
needed so that it's already taken care of. Or make a list of "to do's" to
help give everyone a visual reminder of what they may need to do. Or tell
the other person that we need a window rather than an exact time, and then
go for the earliest part of the window so that we have time for last minute
needs. These are all more effective than yelling "Hurry up! Come on!! You're
making us late!".

Just some thoughts sparked by your post Ticia :o)

Thanks,
Jacki

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:26 AM, Gold Standard wrote:

> Most of us have many years
> of conditioning from our own upbringings, and for me, the triggers
> still
> come sometimes. But because I do have a commitment to be respectful
> and
> supportive of my children always, it is pretty easy to make
> changes. In fact
> joyful.

==========

That's a great way to describe it. I hadn't thought of it that way,
but over the years it got easier and easier for me to apologize, to
notice when I was doing something too thoughtlessly, or to explain
(as the kids got older) what I thought might've triggered my
reaction, and that analysis helped them and me too. It gives them a
bad example but they don't have to suffer the whole of the stupid
move, as I retract it quickly and discuss why people are sometimes
that way and what better ways are like. It gives them an example of
changing actions midstream too, which I think is healthy.

Sandra

Ticia

Jacki thank you.
The line below was really a gold nugget I needed to hear. I enjoyed
your whole post and especially this line below :)

Ticia
(Mama to Chloe 7, Raiden 3 and Satori 6mos)



Jacki wrote:
Part of unschooling is the commitment as
parents to continue to think and be mindful of how we are acting with our
children, and to be humble in acknowledging when we have made a
mistake, and
to make appropriate adjustments.
> Just some thoughts sparked by your post Ticia :o)
>
> Thanks,
> Jacki
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/4/2006 8:56:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ticiamama@... writes:

>>Part of unschooling is the commitment as
parents to continue to think and be mindful of how we are acting with our
children, and to be humble in acknowledging when we have made a
mistake, and
to make appropriate adjustments.<<

One thing I treasure about my dad, is that when he would get mad at us when
we were kids and teenagers, and blow his top which was very rare, he'd always
come back and apologize. I can only remember a few times he spanked us, and
I remember him coming to my room and hugging me and saying sorry and talking
it all over (my transgressions, his anger, etc.)

He is by no means perfect, but even now, if he is in a bad mood (he's almost
80 now!) and maybe gives his opinion a bit too strongly or judgementally,
he'll later apologize or let us know how much he loves us (my sister and I), how
proud he is of us, what a good job he feels we're doing as parents.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@...>
wrote:
> I think we all breathe a little sigh of relief (at least I do)
when I hear about the mistakes of people I admire and respect. And
how the mistake was handled. You're right, it reminds us that we are
all human. That said, I personally don't want to DWELL on my
mistakes, but can tell you that at least weekly, and sometimes more
often, I misstep in interacting with my child(ren). Usually it is
quite obvious, as by now we have a pretty smooth situation as a
family. My kids have no problem pointing out a misstep, for sure
(and they are often kind about such a thing). <

I just posted the below quote on a local unschooling board, so some
may have seen it (sorry), but it is really about just what Jackie is
talking about, at least to me. I hope you don't mind my sharing it
here too. This is from Shea Darian's book Sanctuaries of Childhood,
which in general I did NOT like (too many Waldorf 'rules'. I only
add the first paragraph for context, the second paragraph captures
for me the heart of unschooling.

Shea Darian writes:

"Some folks say we choose our families before we are conceived,
while still on the other side of that threshold between worlds. For
me, this picture is a great solace. I delight in thinking of my
children as souls, musing through the misty veil at my foibles and
shortcomings. It heartens me many a day to think they would know me
and still want me as their mothers.

"Perhaps this is the sacred key to our time here earth, to be so
humbled by another's love that we realize perfection pales in
comparison to sincerity. As we embrace the mystery of love, we see
that it contains not an absence of error, but the presence of
grace. It contains not the absence of anger or pain, but the
presence of forgiveness and healing. Not the absence of disharmony
or confusion, but the presence of peace and clarity."

Cathy

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:47 PM, cathyandgarth wrote:

> "Some folks say we choose our families before we are conceived,
> while still on the other side of that threshold between worlds. For
> me, this picture is a great solace. I delight in thinking of my
> children as souls, musing through the misty veil at my foibles and
> shortcomings. It heartens me many a day to think they would know me
> and still want me as their mothers.
>
> "Perhaps this is the sacred key to our time here earth, to be so
> humbled by another's love that we realize perfection pales in
> comparison to sincerity. As we embrace the mystery of love, we see
> that it contains not an absence of error, but the presence of
> grace. It contains not the absence of anger or pain, but the
> presence of forgiveness and healing. Not the absence of disharmony
> or confusion, but the presence of peace and clarity."

I think it's much stronger without the first part!

While I think it's heartwarming to think our kids picked us as
parents and the responsibility of living up to the faith they had in
us can be energizing, it also means kids choose drug addict,
alcoholic and abusive parents and it justifies the parents continuing
their abusive behavior since the children supposedly knew what the
parents were like before they chose them :-/

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]