[email protected]

Not from the SE U.S., but from the replacement penal colony.
This just came kind of out of the blue, and it wasn't until I was forwarding
it to someone else that I noticed the "unschooling" listed under Christian
requirements. That's a first for me, in Bible literalism.

The page she had come across is http://sandradodd.com/spanking


Subj: Spanking
Date: 3, September Friday, 2004 12:43:29 AM
From: wallywtr@...
To: sandradodd@...

I have just read the 'no spanking' page. I disagree. We are Christians so

we base our whole lives on the bible, including no birth control,

unschooling etc. As far as I am concerned spanking is NOT WRONG because the

bible says: spare the rod and spoil the child. There are only two things

that our 6 children ever get/got spanked for and that is deliberate/defiant

disobedience and disrespect (age appropriate). Our older three - 16; 13; 11

have not been spanked for a long time as they know we mean it from the few

spankings they got between 6 and 9 years. They aren't smacked for their

childish mischieviousness or accidents or learning mistakes. I will stick

with what is biblical (ie guaranteed to work). Our kids are exceptionally

confident and happy and also very helpful and respectful to other people and

their property. Used correctly as intended by God, there is nothing wrong

with spanking.

---------------

In a message dated 9/3/04 12:43:29 AM, wallywtr@... writes:

<< I have just read the 'no spanking' page. I disagree. >>

Okay.

Nothing in what you wrote was anything new to me. I was raised Southern
Baptist and have heard all that and worse.

Do what you want to do, but it does help families to know they have options.

Sandra

-------------------

Sandra

Thankyou for your reply. I don't know if your reference to 'Southern
Baptist' has a special meaning as I live in Australia.

I just hope that those people do put in all the extra hard work those
options are going to require. There are at least a hundred
homeschoolers/unschoolers here in Canberra and unfortunately the families I
have met who opt for those kind of theories have had the worst children I
have ever come across, (because they don't bother with putting in the EXTRA
work). I know that smacking has been abused and used wrongly for years and
that is definitely not okay, but so far going to the other extreme, and
throwing the baby out with the bath water, seems to be producing the same if
not worse results - judging by the current generation of teens and
pre-teens.

I wish all of you the very best and pray that people really can make those
options work if that's how they really want to go.

bye
Karen

Gold Standard

>>>"As far as I am concerned spanking is NOT WRONG because the
>>>bible says: spare the rod and spoil the child."

Isn't using the rod spoiling the child? Maybe the bible is directing us to
spare our rods so that we can spoil the child, in a positive way. Maybe this
statement was incorrectly written in its interpretation and it originally
said "put down that rod or you are going to spoil that child!" That's the
problem with always referring our thinking to the bible, the interpretations
are endless.

>>>"Used correctly as intended by God, there is nothing wrong
>>>with spanking."

Case in point. Used correctly by God, war is justified. Used correctly by
God, incest is appropriate. Anyone can justify anything they do by
abdicating their good senses to someone's interpretation of what God would
want. We know what's right.


>>>"I just hope that those people do put in all the extra hard work those
>>>options (not spanking) are going to require."

Yes, it takes good thinking, creativity, compassion, love, and work not to
spank children. It would be much easier (in theory) to just whack a child
when she isn't doing what is wanted. Easier and completely wrong.

>>>"There are at least a hundred
>>>homeschoolers/unschoolers here in Canberra and unfortunately the families
I
>>>have met who opt for those kind of theories have had the worst children I
>>>have ever come across",

The statement "the worst children I have ever come across" is telling. Does
this mean that the children didn't blindly and obediently do what they were
told right away? Does this mean that the children were independent thinkers
who knew what they wanted? Does this mean that the children were articulate
about what they thought? That can be pretty daunting to an adult who thinks
they should be in control.

Jacki

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/04 1:34:18 PM, contact@... writes:

<< The statement "the worst children I have ever come across" is telling. Does
this mean that the children didn't blindly and obediently do what they were
told right away? >>

That was my wonder at the same point.
"Worst" meaning having fun? <g>
"Worst" meaning they're getting to balance on the curb while her kids are
holding her hand and walking right beside her?

Hard to guess, but I've been around people who've declared bored/boring kids
"good" and interested/interesting kids "bad."

Sandra

Pam Hartley

> << The statement "the worst children I have ever come across" is telling. Does
> this mean that the children didn't blindly and obediently do what they were
> told right away? >>
>
> That was my wonder at the same point.
> "Worst" meaning having fun? <g>
> "Worst" meaning they're getting to balance on the curb while her kids are
> holding her hand and walking right beside her?
>
> Hard to guess, but I've been around people who've declared bored/boring kids
> "good" and interested/interesting kids "bad."

I've seen parents who won't spank (or at least don't while I'm around and
claim they don't) but seem to be completely inept, inconsistent, poor role
model human beings and have children who consistently show a lack of social
respect. These parents are usually "naggers". ("Jimmy, don't pull on that
cat. JIMMY! Jimmy, I'm going to count. Jimmy, the kitty doesn't like that.")

I figure these are often what are held up to us as the example of the
"Unspanked" by those who want to continue to justify hitting their kids. "If
I don't, they'll turn out to be like THOSE" seems to be the argument.

When people meet my daughters and find that there is no such thing as
punishment in our house, spanking included, they either can't believe it or
they immediately proclaim that my daughters are just "naturally" that way
and that THEIR children are much, much different temperamentally.

Some people just don't have any DESIRE to treat their children with respect.
It's sad and bewildering.

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/04 2:39:42 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< I've seen parents who won't spank (or at least don't while I'm around and
claim they don't) but seem to be completely inept, inconsistent, poor role
model human beings and have children who consistently show a lack of social
respect. These parents are usually "naggers". ("Jimmy, don't pull on that
cat. JIMMY! Jimmy, I'm going to count. Jimmy, the kitty doesn't like that.")
>>

I think Howard Gardner suggests that interpersonal intelligence is an
inheritable trait. Whether it's nature or nurture, if the parents' social skills
are lame, what chance does the kid have?

I used to count down from three, with Marty. It was a mystery what would
happen if I got to zero. No, I guess what happened was I went and picked him up
and moved him where I needed him to go. But I only remember a couple of times.
It was a kind of "really" and "last chance" when I was trying to get him to
be elsewhere or otherwise, when he was three or so.

What worked better was for me to change my own uptight, stubborn vision of
what they should do and how fast.

-=-When people meet my daughters and find that there is no such thing as
punishment in our house, spanking included, they either can't believe it or
they immediately proclaim that my daughters are just "naturally" that way
and that THEIR children are much, much different temperamentally.-=-

Yeah, I didn't write back to the woman, and she's in Australia so it wouldn't
matter, but I think anyone who thought as she did and who was around my kids
for any length of time might change ideas.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/2004 3:54:32 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Whether it's nature or nurture, if the parents' social skills
are lame, what chance does the kid have?
I think my social skills are lame - which is probably why I have never posted
before! But I really really want to unschool and I want to interact with my
kids the way I see posted on this list. So my question is, can any of you
recommend good books or other resources that will increase my interpersonal
skills? Just reading here has helped in lots of ways that I am with my kids but I
am thinking the biggest problem is truly that lack of people skills on my part.

Julie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AM Brown

> So my question is, can any of you
> recommend good books or other resources that will increase my
interpersonal
> skills?

"How to talk so your kids will listen, How to listen so your kids will
talk." Faber and Mazlish. It is an easy read and has great communication
tools you can put to use right away and see a big difference right away.
Anna

Gold Standard

-----Original Message-----
From: AM Brown [mailto:ambdkf@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 3:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] support for my theory, and news about
unschooling



> So my question is, can any of you
> recommend good books or other resources that will increase my
interpersonal
> skills?

>>"How to talk so your kids will listen, How to listen so your kids will
>>talk." Faber and Mazlish. It is an easy read and has great
communication
>>tools you can put to use right away and see a big difference right away.
>>Anna

The above-mentioned book changed our thinking so much in early parenthood.

The book "Straight Talk" by Sherod Miller, Daniel Wackman, Elam Nunnally,
and Carol Saline is great. It really breaks down communication into pieces,
and is used in seminars for increasing meaning and accuracy in our
communication. It's a "how to" book that is very interesting.

We also liked Faber and Mazlish's "Siblings Without Rivalry", which is a
great family communication book as well.