help
ilovetarotalot
My son is 10, he is very cerebral, reads 24/7, plays no sports. We
do encourage him to get his body moving, we hike together, he
has a dancing video game...But he is overweight, always has
been big. This seems to be a factor in the way that other kids
see and interact with him. It seems that most kids have a
reluctance to be friendly to him because of his appearance. I've
been binging him to parks and pools "looking for friends" for a
long time now and I've seen the reaction on the other children's
faces, this is not a mistaken impression of mine, so please, no
lectures on my "misperception" of this problem. My question is,
do any of you have a similar story? More to the point, how do you
"find" friends for your child, when this is a factor? We are
presently doing independent study through a Waldorf charter
school, in which he has 1 friend, sort of...We are wanting to
homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
being friendless is rather daunting. Please, send only helpful
suggestions. Also, I am new to this group and to the concept of
unschooling, I did post a previous question and intro, but it just
disappeared...So, I'll do it again; I'm a SAHM with a 10 yr old boy
and an almost 4 yr old girl. Unschooling sounds like the perfect
solution to some of the difficulties I've been having, honestly, I
wept when I read some of the information and parent
"testimonials". Thank you for any advice you can throw my way...
do encourage him to get his body moving, we hike together, he
has a dancing video game...But he is overweight, always has
been big. This seems to be a factor in the way that other kids
see and interact with him. It seems that most kids have a
reluctance to be friendly to him because of his appearance. I've
been binging him to parks and pools "looking for friends" for a
long time now and I've seen the reaction on the other children's
faces, this is not a mistaken impression of mine, so please, no
lectures on my "misperception" of this problem. My question is,
do any of you have a similar story? More to the point, how do you
"find" friends for your child, when this is a factor? We are
presently doing independent study through a Waldorf charter
school, in which he has 1 friend, sort of...We are wanting to
homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
being friendless is rather daunting. Please, send only helpful
suggestions. Also, I am new to this group and to the concept of
unschooling, I did post a previous question and intro, but it just
disappeared...So, I'll do it again; I'm a SAHM with a 10 yr old boy
and an almost 4 yr old girl. Unschooling sounds like the perfect
solution to some of the difficulties I've been having, honestly, I
wept when I read some of the information and parent
"testimonials". Thank you for any advice you can throw my way...
Tia Leschke
>We are wanting toI don't have that kind of kid so have no answers in that area, but think
>homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
>being friendless is rather daunting.
about the fact that he's only got one sort of friend now, in a school-like
situation if I'm reading you right.
In general, the way for homeschooled kids to find friends is to be involved
in activities they enjoy and meet them there. Taking him to the park or
pool wouldn't have that shared interest factor to help the other kids get
past his appearance. I think I would look for other kinds of activities
that he might enjoy. Is there a homeschooling group nearby? There might be
activities available through them that would appeal to a boy like yours
(the opposite of my physically active boy - grin). Maybe there's a chess
club or a science club or reading discussion group, that kind of thing.
He's more likely to meet a "kindred spirit" at something like that. Or your
community recreation facility might have some activities that he'd like.
Tia
Elizabeth Hill
**
My son is 10, he is very cerebral, reads 24/7, plays no sports. We
do encourage him to get his body moving, we hike together, he
has a dancing video game...**
Hi -
My son just turned 10 and tends to be sedentary and a bit overweight. My brother bought him an "eye toy" for our Playstation 2 and that has encouraged getting his body moving. I moved last year, and I sometimes think that *I* have a hard time making friends because I make a bad impression on people being very very overweight myself. So I sympathize.
I think homeschooling park days are a pretty good place to make friends. And sometimes it takes awhile for people to make friends. I think my son was more at ease socially when he was younger. Now he tends to be slow to approach people.
What would your son like to do with other kids? What kind of play does he like when he's not reading? Or does he just want kids to talk about books with? (Not trying to sound rude, just looking for ideas. You could host activities related to what he likes to do.)
Betsy
My son is 10, he is very cerebral, reads 24/7, plays no sports. We
do encourage him to get his body moving, we hike together, he
has a dancing video game...**
Hi -
My son just turned 10 and tends to be sedentary and a bit overweight. My brother bought him an "eye toy" for our Playstation 2 and that has encouraged getting his body moving. I moved last year, and I sometimes think that *I* have a hard time making friends because I make a bad impression on people being very very overweight myself. So I sympathize.
I think homeschooling park days are a pretty good place to make friends. And sometimes it takes awhile for people to make friends. I think my son was more at ease socially when he was younger. Now he tends to be slow to approach people.
What would your son like to do with other kids? What kind of play does he like when he's not reading? Or does he just want kids to talk about books with? (Not trying to sound rude, just looking for ideas. You could host activities related to what he likes to do.)
Betsy
Ren
"Please, send only helpful
suggestions."
Do you think folks are going to purposely send UN-helpful suggestions? Assume that everyone is going to automatically give you the best advice they can personally give, and it's up to you to decide what is useful for your own life.
As to the friends issue....we truly don't have a problem with that,ever. And it's got nothing to do with weight or looks or other issues, it's because my children meet people based on their interests and commonalities. We don't go looking for friends, they happen as a natural side effect of pursuing lives we love.
Some of our favorite folks are in our unschooling support group, but we've met great people through church, Yu-gi-oh trading and even through the bookstore. I have been around several unschooling families the last few years, and seen some kids with challenges, including being heavy or autistic or physically challenged, but none have been treated any differently. What my kids use for judgement is how nice the person acts, whether or not they have some common interests and have fun together. That's it.
So I would recommend other unschoolers if that's the direction you're planning on going. Or even other relaxed homeschoolers if that isn't possible. I also recommend helping your child pursue his interests and find friends that way.
Seems like the gaming groups we've hung out with gather a very diverse group of kids, some of them not so physically gifted, but they all have fun and I haven't heard teasing.
School kids have that chicken pecking mentality, so it's more common for them to single out anyone a little bit different. Not so with children raised away from that toxic environment...or at least not as common. That's been my experience.
Ren
"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying
suggestions."
Do you think folks are going to purposely send UN-helpful suggestions? Assume that everyone is going to automatically give you the best advice they can personally give, and it's up to you to decide what is useful for your own life.
As to the friends issue....we truly don't have a problem with that,ever. And it's got nothing to do with weight or looks or other issues, it's because my children meet people based on their interests and commonalities. We don't go looking for friends, they happen as a natural side effect of pursuing lives we love.
Some of our favorite folks are in our unschooling support group, but we've met great people through church, Yu-gi-oh trading and even through the bookstore. I have been around several unschooling families the last few years, and seen some kids with challenges, including being heavy or autistic or physically challenged, but none have been treated any differently. What my kids use for judgement is how nice the person acts, whether or not they have some common interests and have fun together. That's it.
So I would recommend other unschoolers if that's the direction you're planning on going. Or even other relaxed homeschoolers if that isn't possible. I also recommend helping your child pursue his interests and find friends that way.
Seems like the gaming groups we've hung out with gather a very diverse group of kids, some of them not so physically gifted, but they all have fun and I haven't heard teasing.
School kids have that chicken pecking mentality, so it's more common for them to single out anyone a little bit different. Not so with children raised away from that toxic environment...or at least not as common. That's been my experience.
Ren
"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/21/2004 12:01:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
nadmo@... writes:
Please, send only helpful
suggestions. Also, I am new to this group and to the concept of
unschooling
----------------------
Please, if you already know the answer, you don't need us.
If you don't know the answer, how do you really know what is useful?
And how will WE really know what is useful, not knowing your son?
If anyone here has ideas you hadn't already thought of, that will be a useful
suggestion, whether you use the suggestion or not.
It's extremely common for new unschoolers to think they know what they need,
and to be almost entirely incorrect.
It's very, very different from other most other approaches to living and
parenting.
-=- More to the point, how do you
"find" friends for your child, when this is a factor?-=-
When anything is a factor, friends are found doing what the child loves to do.
Taking him to a pool if he's not a physical guy would at best find him
friends with whom he didn't have common interests.
What kind of reading does he like? Are there local history clubs or
projects? Science fiction or anime clubs? Do you live in a city with a gaming
shop? My older son works in a gaming shop and the collectible card games are
quite cerebral and reading-based. Lots of history, fantasy, tactics. I've never
see those kids care a bit about what the other players look like, just so
they're fun, amusing, good-natured.
And they play in greatly mixed-age groups.
-=-We are wanting to
homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
being friendless is rather daunting. -=-
What's your alternative?
Are kids at school being nice to him?
Does he have friends there?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nadmo@... writes:
Please, send only helpful
suggestions. Also, I am new to this group and to the concept of
unschooling
----------------------
Please, if you already know the answer, you don't need us.
If you don't know the answer, how do you really know what is useful?
And how will WE really know what is useful, not knowing your son?
If anyone here has ideas you hadn't already thought of, that will be a useful
suggestion, whether you use the suggestion or not.
It's extremely common for new unschoolers to think they know what they need,
and to be almost entirely incorrect.
It's very, very different from other most other approaches to living and
parenting.
-=- More to the point, how do you
"find" friends for your child, when this is a factor?-=-
When anything is a factor, friends are found doing what the child loves to do.
Taking him to a pool if he's not a physical guy would at best find him
friends with whom he didn't have common interests.
What kind of reading does he like? Are there local history clubs or
projects? Science fiction or anime clubs? Do you live in a city with a gaming
shop? My older son works in a gaming shop and the collectible card games are
quite cerebral and reading-based. Lots of history, fantasy, tactics. I've never
see those kids care a bit about what the other players look like, just so
they're fun, amusing, good-natured.
And they play in greatly mixed-age groups.
-=-We are wanting to
homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
being friendless is rather daunting. -=-
What's your alternative?
Are kids at school being nice to him?
Does he have friends there?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine
Gosh, I had no idea how very careful with my words I needed to be to
post a question on this site. When I posted it I was feeling very hurt,
vulnerable and fairly depressed. I really tried to do my best to choose
words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers. Well,
the very plea for only "helpful suggestions" prompted a few strangers
to send exactly what I didn't need. Ren, were you purposely shouting
"UN" at me when you wrote "UN-helpful"? That's what I meant by
unhelpful...It didn't help me at all, neither did the blow by blow
correcting of my letter from Sandra. I made that unfortunate plea
(helpful suggestions only...) because I am used to people trying to
tell me that it's not about my son's weight, or it's all in my
head...That kind of unhelpful thing. I also didn't want thinly veiled
attacks on my character flaws or the way I worded my letter. Haven't
any of you ever been so depressed and so vulnerable that you felt the
need to say "please don't be mean to me, I'm just asking for help..."?
Well, that's how I was feeling when I wrote my letter. I am sorry it
offended any of you enough to make you feel you needed to write hurtful
things to me. I'm feeling pretty awful and more depressed that my
letter drew such a response from anyone, let alone Sandra. Wow, just
looking at your letter makes me just feel like a piece of poop. I
didn't know that there was this much wrong with me. Thank you to all of
the folks who sent helpful suggestions and for choosing not to point
out all of the wrong things I said or the wrong things I think. I am
just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
"answer" that I haven't already heard. I definitely wasn't looking for
mean-spirited replies that would make me cry and leave me feeling even
more alone. I know I am a sensitive person and that being depressed
makes me more sensitive, but please don't inundate me with "you're too
sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it. Maybe you guys
could stand to take it easy on some of us newcomers especially those of
us who are struggling. Honestly, I was just looking for some help.
Nadine
post a question on this site. When I posted it I was feeling very hurt,
vulnerable and fairly depressed. I really tried to do my best to choose
words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers. Well,
the very plea for only "helpful suggestions" prompted a few strangers
to send exactly what I didn't need. Ren, were you purposely shouting
"UN" at me when you wrote "UN-helpful"? That's what I meant by
unhelpful...It didn't help me at all, neither did the blow by blow
correcting of my letter from Sandra. I made that unfortunate plea
(helpful suggestions only...) because I am used to people trying to
tell me that it's not about my son's weight, or it's all in my
head...That kind of unhelpful thing. I also didn't want thinly veiled
attacks on my character flaws or the way I worded my letter. Haven't
any of you ever been so depressed and so vulnerable that you felt the
need to say "please don't be mean to me, I'm just asking for help..."?
Well, that's how I was feeling when I wrote my letter. I am sorry it
offended any of you enough to make you feel you needed to write hurtful
things to me. I'm feeling pretty awful and more depressed that my
letter drew such a response from anyone, let alone Sandra. Wow, just
looking at your letter makes me just feel like a piece of poop. I
didn't know that there was this much wrong with me. Thank you to all of
the folks who sent helpful suggestions and for choosing not to point
out all of the wrong things I said or the wrong things I think. I am
just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
"answer" that I haven't already heard. I definitely wasn't looking for
mean-spirited replies that would make me cry and leave me feeling even
more alone. I know I am a sensitive person and that being depressed
makes me more sensitive, but please don't inundate me with "you're too
sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it. Maybe you guys
could stand to take it easy on some of us newcomers especially those of
us who are struggling. Honestly, I was just looking for some help.
Nadine
On Apr 22, 2004, at 1:21 PM, Ren wrote:
>
> "Please, send only helpful
> suggestions."
>
> Do you think folks are going to purposely send UN-helpful
> suggestions? Assume that everyone is going to automatically give you
> the best advice they can personally give, and it's up to you to decide
> what is useful for your own life.
>
> As to the friends issue....we truly don't have a problem with
> that,ever. And it's got nothing to do with weight or looks or other
> issues, it's because my children meet people based on their interests
> and commonalities. We don't go looking for friends, they happen as a
> natural side effect of pursuing lives we love.
>
> Some of our favorite folks are in our unschooling support group, but
> we've met great people through church, Yu-gi-oh trading and even
> through the bookstore.� I have been around several unschooling
> families the last few years, and seen some kids with challenges,
> including being heavy or autistic or physically challenged, but none
> have been treated any differently. What my kids use for judgement is
> how nice the person acts, whether or not they have some common
> interests and have fun together. That's it.
>
> So I would recommend other unschoolers if that's the direction you're
> planning on going. Or even other relaxed homeschoolers if that isn't
> possible. I also recommend helping your child pursue his interests and
> find friends that way.
> Seems like the gaming groups we've hung out with gather a very
> diverse group of kids, some of them not so physically gifted, but they
> all have fun and I haven't heard teasing.
> School kids have that chicken pecking mentality, so it's more common
> for them to single out anyone a little bit different. Not so with
> children raised away from that toxic environment...or at least not as
> common. That's been my experience.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
> "There is no way to
> peace.� Peace is the way."
> ������������������ ~Quaker saying
> ����������������
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine
Sandra, I have to reply to some of the specific things you wrote back
at me. First, I was trying to get help and chose to write as short and
sweet a letter as I could. I wasn't able to include every detail about
my son. The details would fill volumes. He's a big guy, but he swims
like a fish, so for us, the pool was a place where he felt confident
and joyous. Are you angry that I used the phrase "find friends" ? I
wrote "find" because that's how it feels to me sometimes. My son has a
lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or undesirable
or too intense, so sometimes (and I'm probably wrong to do it, but I do
get desperate) I will try to help "win over" a child who seems like a
compatible friend for him who may not give him the time of day if I was
not there to smooth things over. Sometimes the first impression my son
gives is not easy for some kids to warmly embrace. The things my son
loves to do are not offered in a neat package in this very tiny town of
ours, but someone did suggest that we create our own group or club, and
that was a helpful suggestion. Did you really think it would be helpful
to me to shout at me with boldface type? ("And how will WE really know
what is useful, not knowing your son?") Did you feel you were truly
being helpful when you wrote that sentence? Or did you feel that I
needed a cyber-kick in the teeth? If this is the type of response I
should expect from the un-schooling community when I ask for help, then
this is not a good community for my family and I to join. Please try to
keep in mind that when someone asks a bunch of strangers for help, that
most likely she (or he) is really desperate and struggling, because
most people don't go around asking strangers for help. To open yourself
up to the world like that, to admit you need help and then to work up
the courage to ask for it, that is a very vulnerable place to be. Can
you open your heart and try to understand how easily hurt one's
feelings would be in that situation? I can handle being told that what
I think I need is entirely incorrect. Just please believe me when I say
that I don't need mean-spirited e-mails when I am genuinely and
desperately asking for help. Was my letter really that offensive? I
would really like to thank all of the people who gave me answers from
their hearts and I am sorry and embarrassed to be this hurt by the
mean-spirited responses. It just hurts that much more when you're
already pretty low.
Nadine
at me. First, I was trying to get help and chose to write as short and
sweet a letter as I could. I wasn't able to include every detail about
my son. The details would fill volumes. He's a big guy, but he swims
like a fish, so for us, the pool was a place where he felt confident
and joyous. Are you angry that I used the phrase "find friends" ? I
wrote "find" because that's how it feels to me sometimes. My son has a
lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or undesirable
or too intense, so sometimes (and I'm probably wrong to do it, but I do
get desperate) I will try to help "win over" a child who seems like a
compatible friend for him who may not give him the time of day if I was
not there to smooth things over. Sometimes the first impression my son
gives is not easy for some kids to warmly embrace. The things my son
loves to do are not offered in a neat package in this very tiny town of
ours, but someone did suggest that we create our own group or club, and
that was a helpful suggestion. Did you really think it would be helpful
to me to shout at me with boldface type? ("And how will WE really know
what is useful, not knowing your son?") Did you feel you were truly
being helpful when you wrote that sentence? Or did you feel that I
needed a cyber-kick in the teeth? If this is the type of response I
should expect from the un-schooling community when I ask for help, then
this is not a good community for my family and I to join. Please try to
keep in mind that when someone asks a bunch of strangers for help, that
most likely she (or he) is really desperate and struggling, because
most people don't go around asking strangers for help. To open yourself
up to the world like that, to admit you need help and then to work up
the courage to ask for it, that is a very vulnerable place to be. Can
you open your heart and try to understand how easily hurt one's
feelings would be in that situation? I can handle being told that what
I think I need is entirely incorrect. Just please believe me when I say
that I don't need mean-spirited e-mails when I am genuinely and
desperately asking for help. Was my letter really that offensive? I
would really like to thank all of the people who gave me answers from
their hearts and I am sorry and embarrassed to be this hurt by the
mean-spirited responses. It just hurts that much more when you're
already pretty low.
Nadine
On Apr 22, 2004, at 2:15 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/21/2004 12:01:27 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> nadmo@... writes:
> Please, send only helpful
> suggestions. Also, I am new to this group and to the concept of
> unschooling
> ----------------------
>
> Please, if you already know the answer, you don't need us.
> If you don't know the answer, how do you really know what is useful?
> And how will WE really know what is useful, not knowing your son?
>
> If anyone here has ideas you hadn't already thought of, that will be
> a useful
> suggestion, whether you use the suggestion or not.
>
> It's extremely common for new unschoolers to think they know what
> they need,
> and to be almost entirely incorrect.
>
> It's very, very different from other most other approaches to living
> and
> parenting.
>
> -=- More to the point, how do you
> "find" friends for your child, when this is a factor?-=-
>
> When anything is a factor, friends are found doing what the child
> loves to do.
>
> Taking him to a pool if he's not a physical guy would at best find him
> friends with whom he didn't have common interests.�
>
> What kind of reading does he like?� Are there local history clubs or
> projects?� Science fiction or anime clubs?��� Do you live in a city
> with a gaming
> shop?� My older son works in a gaming shop and the collectible card
> games are
> quite cerebral and reading-based.� Lots of history, fantasy,
> tactics.� I've never
> see those kids care a bit about what the other players look like,
> just so
> they're fun, amusing, good-natured.
>
> And they play in greatly mixed-age groups.�
>
> -=-We are wanting to
> homeschool/unschool but the fear of total isolation and my son
> being friendless is rather daunting. -=-
>
> What's your alternative?
> Are kids at school being nice to him?
> Does he have friends there?
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barbara Chase
>Honestly, I was just looking for some help.Nadine,
I'd like to try to be helpful for you here, but I feel like I'm sort of in
a box with respect to what I can say... you are asking for help, but it
feels like you are also asking for it to look a certain way. I think this
is what others are trying to say to you. I know that when I first read
your message and read the "only helpful suggestions please" my whole body
halted... like I was following along and then all of a sudden I hit a wall.
That's what I mean when I say I feel like I'm in a box with what I can say.
When you say that you are used to people saying it's not about your son's
weight, is it possible that you can find something useful and helpful in
this? I'm not suggesting that your intuitions are incorrect... you have
seen the looks of other kids, you have been there and felt and seen the
interchange. So, in those moments it has been about your son's weight with
those particular kids. But in my mind the issue isn't your son's weight,
it's those moments and those kids, and perhaps your expectations (and maybe
his too) that it will be about his weight in future circumstances.
A thought comes to me that what might be the most helpful thing for your
situation right now might be to focus on what you can do for you. You say
you are depressed, alone, lacking confidence. So what will help pick you
up and give you the zing that you need for your life? This might be
exactly what your son needs too. I'd be glad to help you brainstorm about
this, and to give you boosts every now and then (I'm not online all that
often, but I usually do end up reading all of the posts and get caught up
every few days.)
All the best,
--bc--
badolbilz
Nadine, I agree with Barbara. You should be actively setting an example
for him with yourself because where you can make your own friends, only
he can make his. Best friendships are founded on common interests
and/or backgrounds. Look in those places for yourself to have friends
and gently encourage him to do the same. If you feel depressed and
defensive about his weight, how can he not feel the same. It's true
that a first impression is a lot when meeting new people...so help him
learn to make that first impression great, by exuding peaceful joy in
life and open acceptance of other people. People, when meeting others
for the first time read body signals much more easily than they do with
people they know, because it's someone new. So IF your son really
wants friends (I said if because some people, like intellectuals who
love to read a lot don't really need many social outlets) and isn't just
responding to your need for more social activities, don't force
relationships on him. Just work on your own situation and help guide
him to help his own. Good Luck! Heidi
Barbara Chase wrote:
for him with yourself because where you can make your own friends, only
he can make his. Best friendships are founded on common interests
and/or backgrounds. Look in those places for yourself to have friends
and gently encourage him to do the same. If you feel depressed and
defensive about his weight, how can he not feel the same. It's true
that a first impression is a lot when meeting new people...so help him
learn to make that first impression great, by exuding peaceful joy in
life and open acceptance of other people. People, when meeting others
for the first time read body signals much more easily than they do with
people they know, because it's someone new. So IF your son really
wants friends (I said if because some people, like intellectuals who
love to read a lot don't really need many social outlets) and isn't just
responding to your need for more social activities, don't force
relationships on him. Just work on your own situation and help guide
him to help his own. Good Luck! Heidi
Barbara Chase wrote:
>>Honestly, I was just looking for some help.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>Nadine,
>
>I'd like to try to be helpful for you here, but I feel like I'm sort of in
>a box with respect to what I can say... you are asking for help, but it
>feels like you are also asking for it to look a certain way. I think this
>is what others are trying to say to you. I know that when I first read
>your message and read the "only helpful suggestions please" my whole body
>halted... like I was following along and then all of a sudden I hit a wall.
>That's what I mean when I say I feel like I'm in a box with what I can say.
>
>When you say that you are used to people saying it's not about your son's
>weight, is it possible that you can find something useful and helpful in
>this? I'm not suggesting that your intuitions are incorrect... you have
>seen the looks of other kids, you have been there and felt and seen the
>interchange. So, in those moments it has been about your son's weight with
>those particular kids. But in my mind the issue isn't your son's weight,
>it's those moments and those kids, and perhaps your expectations (and maybe
>his too) that it will be about his weight in future circumstances.
>
>A thought comes to me that what might be the most helpful thing for your
>situation right now might be to focus on what you can do for you. You say
>you are depressed, alone, lacking confidence. So what will help pick you
>up and give you the zing that you need for your life? This might be
>exactly what your son needs too. I'd be glad to help you brainstorm about
>this, and to give you boosts every now and then (I'm not online all that
>often, but I usually do end up reading all of the posts and get caught up
>every few days.)
>
>All the best,
>--bc--
>
>
>
>
>
Tia Leschke
>It's trueThis is true. When my daughter was younger, she was very shy. But the other
>that a first impression is a lot when meeting new people...so help him
>learn to make that first impression great, by exuding peaceful joy in
>life and open acceptance of other people. People, when meeting others
>for the first time read body signals much more easily than they do with
>people they know, because it's someone new.
kids she met thought she was unfriendly. She didn't realize it until much
later. I think she was "expecting" to be rejected, especially after the
first few times, and that expectation showed up on her face as, "Don't come
near me because I don't want to be hurt."
Don't know if this is the case with the boy in question.
Tia
[email protected]
<< I am
just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
"answer" that I haven't already heard. >>
Had you read everything that people had sent? Maybe read it again.
Taking your son to the pool and the park seems not to have been a good idea.
Several people said that independently. But they DID recommend other places
he might like better.
-=- please don't inundate me with "you're too
sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it.-=-
Did you want ideas or did you want massage?
Massage doesn't work at ALL well by email, but advice works pretty well if
you're able to accept it.
Do you really want to help your son or not?
You got LOTS of good ideas, free. A counsellor wouldn't have known those
things we sent. We're mothers of boys, and we know.
-=- I really tried to do my best to choose
words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers.-=-
The negativity in your post isn't helpful to this list at all. If you came
here and created a situation in which those who were willing to donate their
time and energy to give you ideas you could have begun to use right away,
yesterday, could only fail to meet your criteria, you're not using this list for the
purpose it's intended.
-=-neither did the blow by blow
correcting of my letter from Sandra-=-
Bullshit.
I wasn't correcting your letter, I was telling you that if you don't KNOW
what you need, so you can't judge what's helpful or not. If you DO know what you
need, you don't need to ask us.
Read the suggestions we made if you want to help your son.
If you want your son to change to make your life easier. go to a counsellor
and get help for your own insecurities. I'm dead serious. Your second post
sacter flaws or the way I worded my letter.-=-
I don't think anyone knew or thought anything about your character.
The only wording of your letter anyone commented on was where you suggested
in advance we wouldn't be helpful. Then you came back and made sure we would
think we were not only not helpful but that we had been MEAN to you.
Take some deep breaths, think about your child's happy future, and maybe you
can cheer yourself up by working on cheering him up. You could both be
happier.
Or you could spend a lot of energy being mad at all of us for our free
advice, and make your life unhappier, and meanwhile what is he doing? Wondering
whether his mom is there for him?
Buck up. Snap out of it. Breathe deeply and smile.
Sandra
just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
"answer" that I haven't already heard. >>
Had you read everything that people had sent? Maybe read it again.
Taking your son to the pool and the park seems not to have been a good idea.
Several people said that independently. But they DID recommend other places
he might like better.
-=- please don't inundate me with "you're too
sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it.-=-
Did you want ideas or did you want massage?
Massage doesn't work at ALL well by email, but advice works pretty well if
you're able to accept it.
Do you really want to help your son or not?
You got LOTS of good ideas, free. A counsellor wouldn't have known those
things we sent. We're mothers of boys, and we know.
-=- I really tried to do my best to choose
words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers.-=-
The negativity in your post isn't helpful to this list at all. If you came
here and created a situation in which those who were willing to donate their
time and energy to give you ideas you could have begun to use right away,
yesterday, could only fail to meet your criteria, you're not using this list for the
purpose it's intended.
-=-neither did the blow by blow
correcting of my letter from Sandra-=-
Bullshit.
I wasn't correcting your letter, I was telling you that if you don't KNOW
what you need, so you can't judge what's helpful or not. If you DO know what you
need, you don't need to ask us.
Read the suggestions we made if you want to help your son.
If you want your son to change to make your life easier. go to a counsellor
and get help for your own insecurities. I'm dead serious. Your second post
sacter flaws or the way I worded my letter.-=-
I don't think anyone knew or thought anything about your character.
The only wording of your letter anyone commented on was where you suggested
in advance we wouldn't be helpful. Then you came back and made sure we would
think we were not only not helpful but that we had been MEAN to you.
Take some deep breaths, think about your child's happy future, and maybe you
can cheer yourself up by working on cheering him up. You could both be
happier.
Or you could spend a lot of energy being mad at all of us for our free
advice, and make your life unhappier, and meanwhile what is he doing? Wondering
whether his mom is there for him?
Buck up. Snap out of it. Breathe deeply and smile.
Sandra
Nadine
Thanks for the heartfelt reply. I'm not always like this (depressed,
desperate etc). I recently had a fairly life threatening bout with
amoebic dysentery and am presently in one of those needing to "fix"
everything that feels wrong in my life type of modes. And the
depression is part of the healing process. I was also hearing a lot
from my son (during Spring Break) that he needed more friends and that
he was feeling lonely. That is hard to hear and not try to do something
about it. The thing about my request for only helpful suggestions
really just stems from the feeling of almost having died and needing to
protect myself from barbs that I can't possibly deflect right now. It
was not meant to offend but I guess it was a sort of wall, as someone
described it in a reply. But it was a wall I felt I needed to erect
because of this raw state I am in at the moment. Does this make sense?
I am still pretty shocked that that request offended as much as it did.
This has been a very educational experience for me as far as my word
choice is concerned. My son had a nice time at school with his friend
and his friend came over for a few hours after, so that feels good. I
am currently thinking up some kind of card-gaming type club or group
and will post it at his school (the charter school that we do
independent study through). All of this friendship stuff aside, the
unschooling vs.schooling stuff came up yesterday for him in art class.
The kids were being taught a lesson involving black paper and chalky
pastels and shadow etc. My son balked at the idea of being told exactly
how to express himself artistically and the teacher was able to coerce
him to try...long story short, he did the lesson, drew the picture. All
of the kids were required to draw the exact same picture, of trees and
the sun creating shadows. When the teacher relayed the story to me of
my son's difficulties in art class, her words were "he wanted to do
what he wanted to do" but of course he bent to what she wanted him to
do in the end. I am really new to all of this unschooling stuff, and I
don't for a minute profess to know anything other than the fact that
forcing just feels wrong. For this issue to come up on our first day
back at school just feels like a sign from the universe. I at first was
torn, feeling like I should have introduced that type of art to him so
that he would feel more confident in his skills when doing it in front
of his peers. On he other hand, his artistic interests are more geared
to Manga cartooning(it's a type of Japanese graphic novel), so why
should I force him to do art that he isn't into? As I worried and
thought about my failings as a homeschooliing mom last night ("I should
have taught him how to draw trees, and how to shadow etc"), I went in
to say goodnight to him and asked him about that art lesson and whether
he liked it. He said "yes, but isn't art supposed to be about my
artistic expression and not about drawing what someone else tells me to
draw?" I am wondering if all of the trouble and the endless meetings
and the awful labels that we have endured in our school experience
could have been avoided if I had heard of unschooling when he was 4. He
seems like the poster child for unschooling. But how do I sell this to
my husband who is all about structure and schedules and all of that
jazz? How do I stop thinking the "old way" myself? This concept seems
so natural and loving but I can't stop thinking (or is it worrying)
about making sure he masters this concept or that concept or whatever
it is that the schools say he needs to know how to do and when...I am
grateful for any advice or help any of you can send my way, and I'l do
my best to not let my feelings get hurt.
Nadine
desperate etc). I recently had a fairly life threatening bout with
amoebic dysentery and am presently in one of those needing to "fix"
everything that feels wrong in my life type of modes. And the
depression is part of the healing process. I was also hearing a lot
from my son (during Spring Break) that he needed more friends and that
he was feeling lonely. That is hard to hear and not try to do something
about it. The thing about my request for only helpful suggestions
really just stems from the feeling of almost having died and needing to
protect myself from barbs that I can't possibly deflect right now. It
was not meant to offend but I guess it was a sort of wall, as someone
described it in a reply. But it was a wall I felt I needed to erect
because of this raw state I am in at the moment. Does this make sense?
I am still pretty shocked that that request offended as much as it did.
This has been a very educational experience for me as far as my word
choice is concerned. My son had a nice time at school with his friend
and his friend came over for a few hours after, so that feels good. I
am currently thinking up some kind of card-gaming type club or group
and will post it at his school (the charter school that we do
independent study through). All of this friendship stuff aside, the
unschooling vs.schooling stuff came up yesterday for him in art class.
The kids were being taught a lesson involving black paper and chalky
pastels and shadow etc. My son balked at the idea of being told exactly
how to express himself artistically and the teacher was able to coerce
him to try...long story short, he did the lesson, drew the picture. All
of the kids were required to draw the exact same picture, of trees and
the sun creating shadows. When the teacher relayed the story to me of
my son's difficulties in art class, her words were "he wanted to do
what he wanted to do" but of course he bent to what she wanted him to
do in the end. I am really new to all of this unschooling stuff, and I
don't for a minute profess to know anything other than the fact that
forcing just feels wrong. For this issue to come up on our first day
back at school just feels like a sign from the universe. I at first was
torn, feeling like I should have introduced that type of art to him so
that he would feel more confident in his skills when doing it in front
of his peers. On he other hand, his artistic interests are more geared
to Manga cartooning(it's a type of Japanese graphic novel), so why
should I force him to do art that he isn't into? As I worried and
thought about my failings as a homeschooliing mom last night ("I should
have taught him how to draw trees, and how to shadow etc"), I went in
to say goodnight to him and asked him about that art lesson and whether
he liked it. He said "yes, but isn't art supposed to be about my
artistic expression and not about drawing what someone else tells me to
draw?" I am wondering if all of the trouble and the endless meetings
and the awful labels that we have endured in our school experience
could have been avoided if I had heard of unschooling when he was 4. He
seems like the poster child for unschooling. But how do I sell this to
my husband who is all about structure and schedules and all of that
jazz? How do I stop thinking the "old way" myself? This concept seems
so natural and loving but I can't stop thinking (or is it worrying)
about making sure he masters this concept or that concept or whatever
it is that the schools say he needs to know how to do and when...I am
grateful for any advice or help any of you can send my way, and I'l do
my best to not let my feelings get hurt.
Nadine
On Apr 23, 2004, at 8:54 AM, Tia Leschke wrote:
>
> >It's true
> >that a first impression is a lot when meeting new people...so help
> him
> >learn to make that first impression great, by exuding peaceful joy in
> >life and open acceptance of other people.� People, when meeting
> others
> >for the first time read body signals much more easily than they do
> with
> >people they know, because� it's someone new.
>
> This is true. When my daughter was younger, she was very shy. But the
> other
> kids she met thought she was unfriendly. She didn't realize it until
> much
> later. I think she was "expecting" to be rejected, especially after
> the
> first few times, and that expectation showed up on her face as,
> "Don't come
> near me because I don't want to be hurt."
> Don't know if this is the case with the boy in question.
> Tia
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nadine
Wow, Sandra you are one tough lady. Don't quite understand where your
antagonism is coming from as far as I'm concerned. I did read all of
the posts to me, and I did appreciate the help I was given. I chose not
to write anything (until your post to me) but I did appreciate the
help. I felt the need to defend myself after your post and Ren's
because I felt my request was being taken the wrong way. Maybe you
could read the reply I just sent in today, to get a different
impression of me and or my first post. I think you are bright enough to
see the negativity in your reply to me, and surely you can't deny the
antagonism of today's reply (even swearing). So, if being a sharp
tongued woman who says it like it is, even to the point of being a bit
harsh, is what you are all about, okay. But don't deny that you are
sometimes a bit too harsh, and don't get so upset when someone who has
been at the receiving end of your words gets a little upset. I agree
about advice working well through e-mail, and advice (free of nastiness
and verbal barbs) is what I'm looking for. I was getting past last
nights hurt feelings until today's new, even meaner e-mail from you. I
f you don't like being called mean, then stop acting mean. Nadine
antagonism is coming from as far as I'm concerned. I did read all of
the posts to me, and I did appreciate the help I was given. I chose not
to write anything (until your post to me) but I did appreciate the
help. I felt the need to defend myself after your post and Ren's
because I felt my request was being taken the wrong way. Maybe you
could read the reply I just sent in today, to get a different
impression of me and or my first post. I think you are bright enough to
see the negativity in your reply to me, and surely you can't deny the
antagonism of today's reply (even swearing). So, if being a sharp
tongued woman who says it like it is, even to the point of being a bit
harsh, is what you are all about, okay. But don't deny that you are
sometimes a bit too harsh, and don't get so upset when someone who has
been at the receiving end of your words gets a little upset. I agree
about advice working well through e-mail, and advice (free of nastiness
and verbal barbs) is what I'm looking for. I was getting past last
nights hurt feelings until today's new, even meaner e-mail from you. I
f you don't like being called mean, then stop acting mean. Nadine
On Apr 23, 2004, at 10:34 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> << I am
>
> just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
>
> "answer" that I haven't already heard. >>
>
> Had you read everything that people had sent?� Maybe read it again.
>
> Taking your son to the pool and the park seems not to have been a
> good idea.�
> Several people said that independently.� But they DID recommend other
> places
> he might like better.
>
> -=- please don't inundate me with "you're too
>
> sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it.-=-
>
> Did you want ideas or did you want massage?
>
> Massage doesn't work at ALL well by email, but advice works pretty
> well if
> you're able to accept it.
>
> Do you really want to help your son or not?
>
> You got LOTS of good ideas, free.� A counsellor wouldn't have known
> those
> things we sent.� We're mothers of boys, and we know.
>
> -=- I really tried to do my best to choose
>
> words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers.-=-
>
> The negativity in your post isn't helpful to this list at all.� If
> you came
> here and created a situation in which those who were willing to
> donate their
> time and energy to give you ideas you could have begun to use right
> away,
> yesterday, could only fail to meet your criteria, you're not using
> this list for the
> purpose it's intended.
>
> -=-neither did the blow by blow
>
> correcting of my letter from Sandra-=-
>
> Bullshit.
>
> I wasn't correcting your letter, I was telling you that if you don't
> KNOW
> what you need, so you can't judge what's helpful or not.� If you DO
> know what you
> need, you don't need to ask us.
>
> Read the suggestions we made if you want to help your son.
> If you want your son to change to make your life easier. go to a
> counsellor
> and get help for your own insecurities.� I'm dead serious.� Your
> second post
> sacter flaws or the way I worded my letter.-=-
>
> I don't think anyone knew or thought anything about your character.
> The only wording of your letter anyone commented on was where you
> suggested
> in advance we wouldn't be helpful.� Then you came back and made sure
> we would
> think we were not only not helpful but that we had been MEAN to you.
>
> Take some deep breaths, think about your child's happy future, and
> maybe you
> can cheer yourself up by working on cheering him up.� You could both
> be
> happier.
>
> Or you could spend a lot of energy being mad at all of us for our free
> advice, and make your life unhappier, and meanwhile what is he
> doing?� Wondering
> whether his mom is there for him?
>
> Buck up.� Snap out of it.� Breathe deeply and smile.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kay Alina
Hi Nadine,
I just wanted to say I hear you and I respect your vulnerability. I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. One thing I
always tell myself if someone is being a jerk and targeting their stuff at
me is "It is not about you, it is about them" I wish I had replied sooner.
I have had weight issues on and off although not in childhood. I know how
vicious American society is toward the overweight. I also know how
heartless some people can be when you show them your underbelly. I am new
to the board and it is true that I sense some people hear "barking". I have
also picked up some great advice just lurking. I commend you for reaching
out and sharing your vulnerability and seeking help and guidance and answers
to help your son. I also want to thank you for being a champion to yourself
by posting this letter and calling attention to the lack of compassion some
have. I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel. Most
people have not a clue about the pain involved in being overweight. Most
people have never been called names for simply being a different size and
most people do not know what it is to be judged for being different. Some
people have sticks up their butts and feel offended if you ask for direct
feedback. Psychologists especially. Every one here is just a human being.
I hope you find a place of forgiveness for fools and continue being the
special mom and person you are. Give your son a hug for me. He is lucky to
have you.
Kay
I just wanted to say I hear you and I respect your vulnerability. I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. One thing I
always tell myself if someone is being a jerk and targeting their stuff at
me is "It is not about you, it is about them" I wish I had replied sooner.
I have had weight issues on and off although not in childhood. I know how
vicious American society is toward the overweight. I also know how
heartless some people can be when you show them your underbelly. I am new
to the board and it is true that I sense some people hear "barking". I have
also picked up some great advice just lurking. I commend you for reaching
out and sharing your vulnerability and seeking help and guidance and answers
to help your son. I also want to thank you for being a champion to yourself
by posting this letter and calling attention to the lack of compassion some
have. I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel. Most
people have not a clue about the pain involved in being overweight. Most
people have never been called names for simply being a different size and
most people do not know what it is to be judged for being different. Some
people have sticks up their butts and feel offended if you ask for direct
feedback. Psychologists especially. Every one here is just a human being.
I hope you find a place of forgiveness for fools and continue being the
special mom and person you are. Give your son a hug for me. He is lucky to
have you.
Kay
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 2:39:34 PM, nadmo@... writes:
<< I
am currently thinking up some kind of card-gaming type club or group
and will post it at his school (the charter school that we do
independent study through). >>
Finding an existing club might be less pressure on you and him both. If you
want to start something, maybe having a one-shot deal (a card playing party,
four hour session with snacks and cards) would let you know if it seems worth
continuing.
And limiting to the kids at the charter school will be a subgroup of kids he
has already had a chance to be with. Finding clubs outside that would be more
expansive.
You could try both.
-=-the
unschooling vs.schooling stuff came up yesterday for him in art class. -=-
Having a child in classes and in a charter school prevents a lot of the
benefits you could have if you really unschooled.
-=-so why
should I force him to do art that he isn't into? -=-
You shouldn't, you're right.
-=-As I worried and
thought about my failings as a homeschooliing mom last night ("I should
have taught him how to draw trees, and how to shadow etc"),-=-
The worry needs to start to go the other way if you want to get to
unschooling. The less you taught him the better, and the less you deliver him to others
to be coerced and forced, the better.
-=-I am wondering if all of the trouble and the endless meetings
and the awful labels that we have endured in our school experience
could have been avoided if I had heard of unschooling when he was 4. -=-
The sooner that stops, the sooner it's over.
-=-But how do I sell this to
my husband who is all about structure and schedules and all of that
jazz? How do I stop thinking the "old way" myself? -=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
That first one has links to several other people's writings on deschooling.
At www.unschooling.com there are discussions you should be able to find at
the message boards about dealing with reluctant spouses.
Sandra
<< I
am currently thinking up some kind of card-gaming type club or group
and will post it at his school (the charter school that we do
independent study through). >>
Finding an existing club might be less pressure on you and him both. If you
want to start something, maybe having a one-shot deal (a card playing party,
four hour session with snacks and cards) would let you know if it seems worth
continuing.
And limiting to the kids at the charter school will be a subgroup of kids he
has already had a chance to be with. Finding clubs outside that would be more
expansive.
You could try both.
-=-the
unschooling vs.schooling stuff came up yesterday for him in art class. -=-
Having a child in classes and in a charter school prevents a lot of the
benefits you could have if you really unschooled.
-=-so why
should I force him to do art that he isn't into? -=-
You shouldn't, you're right.
-=-As I worried and
thought about my failings as a homeschooliing mom last night ("I should
have taught him how to draw trees, and how to shadow etc"),-=-
The worry needs to start to go the other way if you want to get to
unschooling. The less you taught him the better, and the less you deliver him to others
to be coerced and forced, the better.
-=-I am wondering if all of the trouble and the endless meetings
and the awful labels that we have endured in our school experience
could have been avoided if I had heard of unschooling when he was 4. -=-
The sooner that stops, the sooner it's over.
-=-But how do I sell this to
my husband who is all about structure and schedules and all of that
jazz? How do I stop thinking the "old way" myself? -=-
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
That first one has links to several other people's writings on deschooling.
At www.unschooling.com there are discussions you should be able to find at
the message boards about dealing with reluctant spouses.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 2:38:36 PM, nadmo@... writes:
<< I think you are bright enough to
see the negativity in your reply to me >>
That's quite an insult, "I think you are bright enough to..."
<<But don't deny that you are
sometimes a bit too harsh>>
Oiling those trapdoor hinges.
Hoping the post gets to being about the child, or unschooling, and doesn't
continue to be about the poster and her delicate feelings.
-=-I am still pretty shocked that that request offended as much as it did.
This has been a very educational experience for me as far as my word
choice is concerned.-=-
Unlike school's practice writing, this is REAL writing. You have a choice
whether to write; nobody's making you. You have a choice whether to revise your
writing; there's no deadline to "turn it in." You have a choice whether to
post; nobody required it. You have a choice whether to read the responses;
nobody tests you later.
Choice is the important element here. It WAS your word choice.
Nobody was trying to antagonize you by answering your questions.
The antagonism comes in the implied insult that people here have it in them
to have grudges against you, or to try to hurt your feelings, or that they
might knowingly give you advice that wouldn't help you a bit.
If you KNOW you're overly sensitive to the point that you tell people not to
tell you you are, then be careful what you choose to share in public.
Sandra
<< I think you are bright enough to
see the negativity in your reply to me >>
That's quite an insult, "I think you are bright enough to..."
<<But don't deny that you are
sometimes a bit too harsh>>
Oiling those trapdoor hinges.
Hoping the post gets to being about the child, or unschooling, and doesn't
continue to be about the poster and her delicate feelings.
-=-I am still pretty shocked that that request offended as much as it did.
This has been a very educational experience for me as far as my word
choice is concerned.-=-
Unlike school's practice writing, this is REAL writing. You have a choice
whether to write; nobody's making you. You have a choice whether to revise your
writing; there's no deadline to "turn it in." You have a choice whether to
post; nobody required it. You have a choice whether to read the responses;
nobody tests you later.
Choice is the important element here. It WAS your word choice.
Nobody was trying to antagonize you by answering your questions.
The antagonism comes in the implied insult that people here have it in them
to have grudges against you, or to try to hurt your feelings, or that they
might knowingly give you advice that wouldn't help you a bit.
If you KNOW you're overly sensitive to the point that you tell people not to
tell you you are, then be careful what you choose to share in public.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 3:08:19 PM, nadmo@... writes:
<< He's a big guy, but he swims
like a fish, so for us, the pool was a place where he felt confident
and joyous. Are you angry that I used the phrase "find friends" ? >>
#1, I'm not angry about anything except direct insults to the people on this
list and the disruption of what is usually a peaceful place.
#2, my husband has been big since he was a baby, he swims, he studied diving
techniques for a while, he weighs over 300 lbs
-=- My son has a lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or
undesirable
or too intense-=-
So you're saying it's not just his weight?
-=-("And how will WE really know
what is useful, not knowing your son?") Did you feel you were truly
being helpful when you wrote that sentence? -=-
Yes.
The best we could do is guess based on what we know of similar situations,
but you had already indicated that you only wanted ideas YOU thought were
useful, and there is no earthly way for us to have known what you would think was
useful.
-=- Please try to
keep in mind that when someone asks a bunch of strangers for help, that
most likely she (or he) is really desperate and struggling, because
most people don't go around asking strangers for help. -=-
People ask experienced unschoolers for help every single day all over the
place, and lots of them accept the help graciously (even though some of it didn't
apply and their lives are changed for the better.
Most of them don't thrash all kinds of ways and make the people on the list
feel bad. Some do.
Here are what some people have written about another list,
unschoolingdiscussion, and about unschooling.com:
http://sandradodd.com/list
Some of them started off defensive and resistent and they could have gone
away in a huff, but they were glad they didn't.
-=Can you open your heart and try to understand how easily hurt one's
feelings would be in that situation?-=-
All of us had a time when we didn't know much about homeschooling and we all
asked for help.
There will be many things in the future I'll need help with. There were many
in the past. Part of being an adult is keeping SOME of our feelings in.
We've told Holly sometimes "It's okay not to say everything you think."
It's an important trick to remember.
Sandra
<< He's a big guy, but he swims
like a fish, so for us, the pool was a place where he felt confident
and joyous. Are you angry that I used the phrase "find friends" ? >>
#1, I'm not angry about anything except direct insults to the people on this
list and the disruption of what is usually a peaceful place.
#2, my husband has been big since he was a baby, he swims, he studied diving
techniques for a while, he weighs over 300 lbs
-=- My son has a lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or
undesirable
or too intense-=-
So you're saying it's not just his weight?
-=-("And how will WE really know
what is useful, not knowing your son?") Did you feel you were truly
being helpful when you wrote that sentence? -=-
Yes.
The best we could do is guess based on what we know of similar situations,
but you had already indicated that you only wanted ideas YOU thought were
useful, and there is no earthly way for us to have known what you would think was
useful.
-=- Please try to
keep in mind that when someone asks a bunch of strangers for help, that
most likely she (or he) is really desperate and struggling, because
most people don't go around asking strangers for help. -=-
People ask experienced unschoolers for help every single day all over the
place, and lots of them accept the help graciously (even though some of it didn't
apply and their lives are changed for the better.
Most of them don't thrash all kinds of ways and make the people on the list
feel bad. Some do.
Here are what some people have written about another list,
unschoolingdiscussion, and about unschooling.com:
http://sandradodd.com/list
Some of them started off defensive and resistent and they could have gone
away in a huff, but they were glad they didn't.
-=Can you open your heart and try to understand how easily hurt one's
feelings would be in that situation?-=-
All of us had a time when we didn't know much about homeschooling and we all
asked for help.
There will be many things in the future I'll need help with. There were many
in the past. Part of being an adult is keeping SOME of our feelings in.
We've told Holly sometimes "It's okay not to say everything you think."
It's an important trick to remember.
Sandra
Kay Alina
Sandra you were a child of an alcoholic. Try to remember what it felt like when you were small and scared and did not know what to do. You could not control the situation in the way you are able to now. You could not control the emotions. Telling someone to buck up and snap out of it and justify everything you have said or believed rather than simply accept the fact that you have your way and they have theirs is self centered to say the least. Let it go. Stop justifying and attacking someone else for standing up for themselves. You do have a harsh way of putting things some time. Some people do. Does not mean you do not have something valuable to add and share. You have shared your vulnerability here and I have not heard anyone mention to you to get over it or snap out it or so what? This is a place people come to for support. You are right now reminding me very much of both of my out of control alcoholic parents and the endless rationalizing they did to continue their abusive behavior. If someone has asked you to stop a behavior what is the attachment to continuing it?
Just my 2 cents,
Kay
Just my 2 cents,
Kay
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] help
<< I am
just a mom, at her wit's end, hoping that someone out there has an
"answer" that I haven't already heard. >>
Had you read everything that people had sent? Maybe read it again.
Taking your son to the pool and the park seems not to have been a good idea.
Several people said that independently. But they DID recommend other places
he might like better.
-=- please don't inundate me with "you're too
sensitive!!" e-mails, I know I just couldn't handle it.-=-
Did you want ideas or did you want massage?
Massage doesn't work at ALL well by email, but advice works pretty well if
you're able to accept it.
Do you really want to help your son or not?
You got LOTS of good ideas, free. A counsellor wouldn't have known those
things we sent. We're mothers of boys, and we know.
-=- I really tried to do my best to choose
words that would not draw unnecessary meanness from strangers.-=-
The negativity in your post isn't helpful to this list at all. If you came
here and created a situation in which those who were willing to donate their
time and energy to give you ideas you could have begun to use right away,
yesterday, could only fail to meet your criteria, you're not using this list for the
purpose it's intended.
-=-neither did the blow by blow
correcting of my letter from Sandra-=-
Bullshit.
I wasn't correcting your letter, I was telling you that if you don't KNOW
what you need, so you can't judge what's helpful or not. If you DO know what you
need, you don't need to ask us.
Read the suggestions we made if you want to help your son.
If you want your son to change to make your life easier. go to a counsellor
and get help for your own insecurities. I'm dead serious. Your second post
sacter flaws or the way I worded my letter.-=-
I don't think anyone knew or thought anything about your character.
The only wording of your letter anyone commented on was where you suggested
in advance we wouldn't be helpful. Then you came back and made sure we would
think we were not only not helpful but that we had been MEAN to you.
Take some deep breaths, think about your child's happy future, and maybe you
can cheer yourself up by working on cheering him up. You could both be
happier.
Or you could spend a lot of energy being mad at all of us for our free
advice, and make your life unhappier, and meanwhile what is he doing? Wondering
whether his mom is there for him?
Buck up. Snap out of it. Breathe deeply and smile.
Sandra
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In a message dated 4/23/04 3:08:53 PM, angelsguard@... writes:
<< I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. >>
What were people here defending?
I was defending the fact that this list give a TON of good advice, but we
can't predict what someone else will think is useful.
I will continue to defend the idea that when people voluntarily give their
time to help other people do something (I'm thinking al-Anon, La Leche League)
others who need that help should remember it's not something they can get other
places without paying big bucks (if even then) and if you pay real money, the
people will ONLY help you their personally-preferred professional way.
Here someone can get lots of different opinions from people who are actually
unschooling.
-=-I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.-=-
If you think the list tends toward senseless drivel, why are you here?
-=-Most people have never been called names -=-
EVERYONE who has been to school has been called names.
(Okay, maybe some people WILL post senseless drivel, but not if we all stick
to the topic of unschooling.)
Sandra
<< I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. >>
What were people here defending?
I was defending the fact that this list give a TON of good advice, but we
can't predict what someone else will think is useful.
I will continue to defend the idea that when people voluntarily give their
time to help other people do something (I'm thinking al-Anon, La Leche League)
others who need that help should remember it's not something they can get other
places without paying big bucks (if even then) and if you pay real money, the
people will ONLY help you their personally-preferred professional way.
Here someone can get lots of different opinions from people who are actually
unschooling.
-=-I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.-=-
If you think the list tends toward senseless drivel, why are you here?
-=-Most people have never been called names -=-
EVERYONE who has been to school has been called names.
(Okay, maybe some people WILL post senseless drivel, but not if we all stick
to the topic of unschooling.)
Sandra
Nadine
Sandra,hey thanks for the constructive advice. With each new
post/reply, I am pulled in a new direction. I still feel my request for
only helpful suggestions has been taken the wrong way. And I agree with
you, being in the obviously sensitive and vulnerable state that I am in
right now is not a good place to be when asking for help from strangers
who may or may not have a delicate touch when it comes to how they
advise people. I will take the good advice you gave me (maybe a group
of our own might be too much right now) and run with it. Thank you,
seriously. We are on the same page, I think, as far as kids are
concerned, I just won't go to you for advice when I'm depressed or
extra sensitive. I am sorry I offended you. I am going to try not to
answer every reply from you, and would truly like to erase the
slate...unless I've been trap-door-ed,then in that case, so
long...Nadine
post/reply, I am pulled in a new direction. I still feel my request for
only helpful suggestions has been taken the wrong way. And I agree with
you, being in the obviously sensitive and vulnerable state that I am in
right now is not a good place to be when asking for help from strangers
who may or may not have a delicate touch when it comes to how they
advise people. I will take the good advice you gave me (maybe a group
of our own might be too much right now) and run with it. Thank you,
seriously. We are on the same page, I think, as far as kids are
concerned, I just won't go to you for advice when I'm depressed or
extra sensitive. I am sorry I offended you. I am going to try not to
answer every reply from you, and would truly like to erase the
slate...unless I've been trap-door-ed,then in that case, so
long...Nadine
On Apr 23, 2004, at 2:25 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/23/04 3:08:19 PM, nadmo@... writes:
>
> <<� He's a big guy, but he swims
>
> like a fish, so for us, the pool was a place where he felt confident
>
> and joyous. Are you angry that I used the phrase "find friends" ? >>
>
> #1, I'm not angry about anything except direct insults to the people
> on this
> list and the disruption of what is usually a peaceful place.
>
> #2, my husband has been big since he was a baby, he swims, he studied
> diving
> techniques for a while, he weighs over 300 lbs
>
> -=- My son has a lot of unique qualities that others may find
> unpleasant or
> undesirable
>
> or too intense-=-
>
> So you're saying it's not just his weight?
>
> -=-("And how will WE really know
>
> what is useful, not knowing your son?")� Did you feel you were truly
>
> being helpful when you wrote that sentence? -=-
>
> Yes.
> The best we could do is guess based on what we know of similar
> situations,
> but you had already indicated that you only wanted ideas YOU thought
> were
> useful, and there is no earthly way for us to have known what you
> would think was
> useful.
>
> -=- Please try to
>
> keep in mind that when someone asks a bunch of strangers for help,
> that
>
> most likely� she (or he) is really desperate and struggling, because
>
> most people don't go around asking strangers for help. -=-
>
> People ask experienced unschoolers for help every single day all over
> the
> place, and lots of them accept the help graciously (even though some
> of it didn't
> apply and their lives are changed for the better.
>
> Most of them don't thrash all kinds of ways and make the people on
> the list
> feel bad.� Some do.
>
> Here are what some people have written about another list,
> unschoolingdiscussion, and about unschooling.com:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/list
>
> Some of them started off defensive and resistent and they could have
> gone
> away in a huff, but they were glad they didn't.
>
> -=Can you open your heart and try to understand how easily hurt one's
>
> feelings would be in that situation?-=-
>
> All of us had a time when we didn't know much about homeschooling and
> we all
> asked for help.
>
> There will be many things in the future I'll need help with.� There
> were many
> in the past.�� Part of being an adult is keeping SOME of our feelings
> in.��
> We've told Holly sometimes "It's okay not to say everything you
> think."
>
> It's an important trick to remember.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kay Alina
Hi Nadine,
It sounds to me your son is a natural artist. I have been a big fan of
cartooning and I still love animation. I agree wholeheartedly that art is
about expression. How can anyone possibly express what someone else is
feeling. We can only express what comes from within. I have heard other
artists say the exact same thing and eventually leave art school to pursue
careers as artists. I laughed over the comment about teaching how to draw
trees. I know that feeling. Am I doing enough? Did I do it, say it right?
Yes, it probably comes from the yardstick mentality of being raised in a
public school system. The more I read John Holt the better off I am. You
are doing fine. You (or nature) seems to have taught your son, still young,
what many artists do not learn until their college years. In regard to the
other question about convincing your dear husband. The best cure for us was
a year in private school and the results of it being nil and lots of money
spent. Now hubby is 100% behind us. Happy you are a part of always
learning. May we continue this journey, happy, joyous and free!
Kay
It sounds to me your son is a natural artist. I have been a big fan of
cartooning and I still love animation. I agree wholeheartedly that art is
about expression. How can anyone possibly express what someone else is
feeling. We can only express what comes from within. I have heard other
artists say the exact same thing and eventually leave art school to pursue
careers as artists. I laughed over the comment about teaching how to draw
trees. I know that feeling. Am I doing enough? Did I do it, say it right?
Yes, it probably comes from the yardstick mentality of being raised in a
public school system. The more I read John Holt the better off I am. You
are doing fine. You (or nature) seems to have taught your son, still young,
what many artists do not learn until their college years. In regard to the
other question about convincing your dear husband. The best cure for us was
a year in private school and the results of it being nil and lots of money
spent. Now hubby is 100% behind us. Happy you are a part of always
learning. May we continue this journey, happy, joyous and free!
Kay
Kay Alina
Valid points Sandra. Which reminds me of a favorite saying. Evil reigns when good men do nothing. Yes, I do agree it is important to defend all that we value. Unschooling is valuable to me. I would like it to remain on topic. The comment about senseless drivel has nothing to do with this board. I have found only quite captivating conversation here. Thanks for the food for thought.
Kay
In a message dated 4/23/04 3:08:53 PM, angelsguard@... writes:
<< I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. >>
What were people here defending?
I was defending the fact that this list give a TON of good advice, but we
can't predict what someone else will think is useful.
I will continue to defend the idea that when people voluntarily give their
time to help other people do something (I'm thinking al-Anon, La Leche League)
others who need that help should remember it's not something they can get other
places without paying big bucks (if even then) and if you pay real money, the
people will ONLY help you their personally-preferred professional way.
Here someone can get lots of different opinions from people who are actually
unschooling.
-=-I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.-=-
If you think the list tends toward senseless drivel, why are you here?
-=-Most people have never been called names -=-
EVERYONE who has been to school has been called names.
(Okay, maybe some people WILL post senseless drivel, but not if we all stick
to the topic of unschooling.)
Sandra
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kay
In a message dated 4/23/04 3:08:53 PM, angelsguard@... writes:
<< I felt
the same way reading those posts and was surprised they were taken in the
context they were to insight such a level of defensiveness. >>
What were people here defending?
I was defending the fact that this list give a TON of good advice, but we
can't predict what someone else will think is useful.
I will continue to defend the idea that when people voluntarily give their
time to help other people do something (I'm thinking al-Anon, La Leche League)
others who need that help should remember it's not something they can get other
places without paying big bucks (if even then) and if you pay real money, the
people will ONLY help you their personally-preferred professional way.
Here someone can get lots of different opinions from people who are actually
unschooling.
-=-I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.-=-
If you think the list tends toward senseless drivel, why are you here?
-=-Most people have never been called names -=-
EVERYONE who has been to school has been called names.
(Okay, maybe some people WILL post senseless drivel, but not if we all stick
to the topic of unschooling.)
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill
**Please, send only helpful suggestions. **
To the original poster: You may be surprised that the sentence above
created some friction and some firm language about what this list can
and cannot do. I'll share my insight with you and you can consider
whether it makes sense to you.
My thought is that "please, send only helpful suggestions" is somewhat
equivalent to saying "please, send only meaningful presents".
People contribute their time to this list specifically to *help* other
people. No one would bother to type in useless or unhelpful
information. That is what Ren and Sandra were clarifying in their
first responses to you. (Yes, I re-read back to the beginning of the
thread.)
People tend to offer advice based on their own experience with their
own children. We have very limited knowledge of your life and your
children, so it is natural and unsurprising if we offer some/many
ideas that don't fit your life. There really is no good way to
prevent that. So asking for that, for advice that is appropriate for
you isn't realistic.
I believe you weren't intending to be insulting. Nevertheless, even
with the word "please" included your phrasing leaned more towards
"demanding" than "asking", in my opinion.
If you feel that I have misinterpreted the "tone" of your post, then I
would like you to notice that it is very easy to read the wrong tone
into someone's plain text here. And I would like you to acknowledge
the possibility that you are misinterpreting Sandra's tone. It's very
easy to read the wrong emotions into typed text. Normal clues like
inflection and facial expression are missing in this medium.
In the first responses that you got, people (including me) asked you
questions to help them be more helpful in their responses to you.
Instead of answering these questions, you went after Sandra. I don't
think that was the most constructive path.
Betsy
To the original poster: You may be surprised that the sentence above
created some friction and some firm language about what this list can
and cannot do. I'll share my insight with you and you can consider
whether it makes sense to you.
My thought is that "please, send only helpful suggestions" is somewhat
equivalent to saying "please, send only meaningful presents".
People contribute their time to this list specifically to *help* other
people. No one would bother to type in useless or unhelpful
information. That is what Ren and Sandra were clarifying in their
first responses to you. (Yes, I re-read back to the beginning of the
thread.)
People tend to offer advice based on their own experience with their
own children. We have very limited knowledge of your life and your
children, so it is natural and unsurprising if we offer some/many
ideas that don't fit your life. There really is no good way to
prevent that. So asking for that, for advice that is appropriate for
you isn't realistic.
I believe you weren't intending to be insulting. Nevertheless, even
with the word "please" included your phrasing leaned more towards
"demanding" than "asking", in my opinion.
If you feel that I have misinterpreted the "tone" of your post, then I
would like you to notice that it is very easy to read the wrong tone
into someone's plain text here. And I would like you to acknowledge
the possibility that you are misinterpreting Sandra's tone. It's very
easy to read the wrong emotions into typed text. Normal clues like
inflection and facial expression are missing in this medium.
In the first responses that you got, people (including me) asked you
questions to help them be more helpful in their responses to you.
Instead of answering these questions, you went after Sandra. I don't
think that was the most constructive path.
Betsy
Nadine
I quietly and happily took in all of the "helpful" advice that I
received, and by helpful, I'll say it again, I meant not mean. When I
felt people were sending stuff that really missed the point of my
letter and my plea, I felt the need to defend/explain myself. When
people use all capitals on line or thru e-mails, it is meant as a
literal shout, so yes, I took offense to that. If someone can only
help another by hurting her or him first, is that actually *helping*?
My plea for only helpful suggestions, *meaning no mean-spirited
e-mails* may have been poorly worded and thus easily misconstrued, but
it was no reason to shout at me. A simple, "What did you mean by this,
because it's offending me" would have sufficed and I would have
apologized and I would have explained what I meant. I just don't get
why, after I have explained the *actual* meaning of that plea how it
still can be seen as offensive. If someone walked up to me on the
street and asked for directions, and then said "Please don't be mean to
me I'm having a rough day, I just need to know where to go..." I would
immediately understand that she or he had most likely had a few painful
run ins with other people that day and I would feel badly for her/his
pain, because I've been there too. I would not automatically assume
that she/he saw me as a mean person and take offense to that plea. I
really would just figure that sometimes this world can be so cruel and
hurtful, and that this particular stranger was feeling pretty raw from
all of that senseless meanness to which we have all grown accustomed.
I would give her/him the directions as gently and warmly as I could,
and I'd wish that the world could be a nicer place, that we could all
just be nicer to each other. Does this make sense? Does it help to
somehow remove the offense of my poorly worded plea? Never once did I
say useless. But I can see how it can be interpreted that way. Since I
have explained what I actually meant, can we please stop feeling
offended by it? ( I'm not being sarcastic)
received, and by helpful, I'll say it again, I meant not mean. When I
felt people were sending stuff that really missed the point of my
letter and my plea, I felt the need to defend/explain myself. When
people use all capitals on line or thru e-mails, it is meant as a
literal shout, so yes, I took offense to that. If someone can only
help another by hurting her or him first, is that actually *helping*?
My plea for only helpful suggestions, *meaning no mean-spirited
e-mails* may have been poorly worded and thus easily misconstrued, but
it was no reason to shout at me. A simple, "What did you mean by this,
because it's offending me" would have sufficed and I would have
apologized and I would have explained what I meant. I just don't get
why, after I have explained the *actual* meaning of that plea how it
still can be seen as offensive. If someone walked up to me on the
street and asked for directions, and then said "Please don't be mean to
me I'm having a rough day, I just need to know where to go..." I would
immediately understand that she or he had most likely had a few painful
run ins with other people that day and I would feel badly for her/his
pain, because I've been there too. I would not automatically assume
that she/he saw me as a mean person and take offense to that plea. I
really would just figure that sometimes this world can be so cruel and
hurtful, and that this particular stranger was feeling pretty raw from
all of that senseless meanness to which we have all grown accustomed.
I would give her/him the directions as gently and warmly as I could,
and I'd wish that the world could be a nicer place, that we could all
just be nicer to each other. Does this make sense? Does it help to
somehow remove the offense of my poorly worded plea? Never once did I
say useless. But I can see how it can be interpreted that way. Since I
have explained what I actually meant, can we please stop feeling
offended by it? ( I'm not being sarcastic)
On Apr 23, 2004, at 5:10 PM, ecsamhill wrote:
> **Please, send only helpful suggestions. **
>
> To the original poster:� You may be surprised that the sentence above
> created some friction and some firm language about what this list can
> and cannot do.� I'll share my insight with you and you can consider
> whether it makes sense to you.
>
> My thought is that "please, send only helpful suggestions" is somewhat
> equivalent to saying "please, send only meaningful presents".
>
> People contribute their time to this list specifically to *help* other
> people.� No one would bother to type in useless or unhelpful
> information.� That is what Ren and Sandra were clarifying in their
> first responses to you.� (Yes, I re-read back to the beginning of the
> thread.)�
>
> People tend to offer advice based on their own experience with their
> own children.� We have very limited knowledge of your life and your
> children, so it is natural and unsurprising if we offer some/many
> ideas that don't fit your life.� There really is no good way to
> prevent that.� So asking for that, for advice that is appropriate for
> you isn't realistic.�
>
> I believe you weren't intending to be insulting.� Nevertheless, even
> with the word "please" included your phrasing leaned more towards
> "demanding" than "asking", in my opinion.
>
> If you feel that I have misinterpreted the "tone" of your post, then I
> would like you to notice that it is very easy to read the wrong tone
> into someone's plain text here.� And I would like you to acknowledge
> the possibility that you are misinterpreting Sandra's tone.� It's very
> easy to read the wrong emotions into typed text.� Normal clues like
> inflection and facial expression are missing in this medium.
>
> In the first responses that you got, people (including me) asked you
> questions to help them be more helpful in their responses to you.
> Instead of answering these questions, you went after Sandra.� I don't
> think that was the most constructive path.
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 4/22/04 10:53 PM, Nadine at nadmo@... wrote:
the horses, training and exercising them so they'll be ready for lessons. A
few months ago, I had the privilege of watching GaWaNi Pony Boy, a Native
American horse trainer, give several sessions at a seminar. Afterward, he
was available for questions. Very often, he began his response with "I
can't answer that question without seeing the horse." He would refuse to
try to answer specific questions about specific horses, because he simply
couldn't. He wouldn't try to guess; he'd simply repeat, "I can't answer
that." Not "won't." Just "can't."
I appreciated his honesty, and the fact that, by refusing to answer specific
questions, I had to go back to the horse, think it through myself, and find
a way to solve the problems. It's the most helpful thing he could possibly
do, and the most truthful.
Nancy
> Did you really think it would be helpfulI'm employed at a therapeutic horseback riding program. I work mostly with
> to me to shout at me with boldface type? ("And how will WE really know
> what is useful, not knowing your son?") Did you feel you were truly
> being helpful when you wrote that sentence?
the horses, training and exercising them so they'll be ready for lessons. A
few months ago, I had the privilege of watching GaWaNi Pony Boy, a Native
American horse trainer, give several sessions at a seminar. Afterward, he
was available for questions. Very often, he began his response with "I
can't answer that question without seeing the horse." He would refuse to
try to answer specific questions about specific horses, because he simply
couldn't. He wouldn't try to guess; he'd simply repeat, "I can't answer
that." Not "won't." Just "can't."
I appreciated his honesty, and the fact that, by refusing to answer specific
questions, I had to go back to the horse, think it through myself, and find
a way to solve the problems. It's the most helpful thing he could possibly
do, and the most truthful.
Nancy
Barbara Chase
>I just don't get why, after I have explained the *actual* meaning ofNadine,
>that plea how it still can be seen as offensive.
Consider this possibility... no one on this list has posted anything to you
or about you that has been mean, or mean spirited. Consider instead that
each and every post has been from each person's heart, with compassion and
grace, trying to help you as best they can. This is a very valid
possibility. At the same time, you also had some strong emotional feelings
come up when you read these emails, and your feelings are valid. But I
don't believe that anyone tried to make you have these feelings. I really
do believe that everyone here offers their best from their heart, even if
they use a lot of words to do so ;-)
>I would not automatically assume that she/he saw me as a mean personI like the idea of taking what you wrote in your most recent email (quoted
>and take offense to that plea.
above) and turning it around just a little bit.... I don't automatically
assume that the person writing the email is being mean, so I won't take
offense.
>When I felt people were sending stuff that really missed the point of mySome folks have suggested that what works really well is to take what fits
>letter and my plea, I felt the need to defend/explain myself.
and feels right, and then just leave the rest. I have found the "leave the
rest" advice to be really helpful. But even so, over time on this list I
have found that what once didn't feel right to me slowly starts to feel
very right. Strange how things can change like that.
Also, if you felt that some emails missed your point or didn't really offer
you the advice you were seeking but other emails did give you some ideas...
then perhaps (IMHO) you don't need to defend/explain yourself. If you
didn't get one iota from anyone, then maybe a second email w/ different
wording would help. It's nearly impossible to defend/explain w/ email,
hard enough in real life!!
Namaste
--bc--
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:08:41 PM Central Standard Time,
nadmo@... writes:
My son has a
lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or undesirable
or too intense, so sometimes (and I'm probably wrong to do it, but I do
get desperate) I will try to help "win over" a child who seems like a
compatible friend for him who may not give him the time of day if I was
not there to smooth things over.
~~~
I don't know what kind of qualities you are talking about here. But could
some of them just be behaviors instead, which could be muted or stopped, when
the possibility of meeting new friends is there?
I have 3 sons, two of which are grown. Over the years, at different times of
each of their lives, I have helped them *not* to do one thing or another that
most folks might find annoying or off-putting. I'm thinking of something
like repeating phrases over and over, or being silly on first meeting. Two of my
sons went through a phase where they would plant (usually unwanted) kisses on
their friend's cheeks. Not little kids...they were about 8 or 9 at the time.
After a while that can be annoying to the friend. There are a million
little things like that which kids pick up or decide to do and these kinds of
BEHAVIORS can be noticed and helped to go on their merry way.
One of my sons has Tourette Syndrome, and even he controls some of his more
off-putting tics when he finds it necessary.
Not all of our kids' quirks and actions can be explained away by "that's just
who he *is*" with a sigh and a shrug of the shoulders. If a kid needs to get
along in the world, it's right to help him find a way to be more friend-like.
I hope this is a helpful suggestion.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nadmo@... writes:
My son has a
lot of unique qualities that others may find unpleasant or undesirable
or too intense, so sometimes (and I'm probably wrong to do it, but I do
get desperate) I will try to help "win over" a child who seems like a
compatible friend for him who may not give him the time of day if I was
not there to smooth things over.
~~~
I don't know what kind of qualities you are talking about here. But could
some of them just be behaviors instead, which could be muted or stopped, when
the possibility of meeting new friends is there?
I have 3 sons, two of which are grown. Over the years, at different times of
each of their lives, I have helped them *not* to do one thing or another that
most folks might find annoying or off-putting. I'm thinking of something
like repeating phrases over and over, or being silly on first meeting. Two of my
sons went through a phase where they would plant (usually unwanted) kisses on
their friend's cheeks. Not little kids...they were about 8 or 9 at the time.
After a while that can be annoying to the friend. There are a million
little things like that which kids pick up or decide to do and these kinds of
BEHAVIORS can be noticed and helped to go on their merry way.
One of my sons has Tourette Syndrome, and even he controls some of his more
off-putting tics when he finds it necessary.
Not all of our kids' quirks and actions can be explained away by "that's just
who he *is*" with a sigh and a shrug of the shoulders. If a kid needs to get
along in the world, it's right to help him find a way to be more friend-like.
I hope this is a helpful suggestion.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:09:02 PM Central Standard Time,
angelsguard@... writes:
I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.
~~~
I guess senseless drivel is in the eye of the beholder.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
angelsguard@... writes:
I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.
~~~
I guess senseless drivel is in the eye of the beholder.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Krisula Moyer
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:15:59 -0700
From: Nadine <nadmo@...>
Subject: Re: Re: help
I quietly and happily took in all of the "helpful" advice that I
received, and by helpful, I'll say it again, I meant not mean. When I
felt people were sending stuff that really missed the point of my
letter and my plea, I felt the need to defend/explain myself. ...
Hi Nadine,
I've been away a lot and busy this month so I'm just catching up now with
the list. I read your original post and the last couple of days' but I
missed most of what came between the two (except, of course what's been
quoted). I'm not sure this will help but your first post tugged at my heart
and I wanted to share my son's experience.
My ds10 is a great kid with lots of interesting and wonderful qualities. He
is also intense and has often needed some calming down and negotiating the
trials of everyday life.
My son is fortunate to have a whole group of friends whom he loves.
Although he did attend Sunday school, played on baseball and soccer teams,
and went to karate for a while, close friendships didn't develop for him in
these places. The place he found people patient enough to get to know him
and appreciate his many fine qualities was at park day. I am not suggesting
there is anything magical about the park but I do think there are a few
things, which made it possible for him to blossom there.
First, the unschooling nature of our group ensured that many (not all)
parents are patient and sympathetic towards children who are experiencing
intense emotions. This left me free to try and help him get his needs met
without feeling self conscious or having the need to explain to everyone why
I let this big guy cry on my lap if he wanted to. The kids, maybe b/c they
were raised in respectful homes themselves, are also, by and large, patient
and sympathetic. Kids are expected to let everyone play at our group. I
remember at one point thinking our loud that the other kids didn't want to
let my son play with them and wondering what I could do to help him fit in.
That same day, without embarrassing or demeaning anyone, another mom got the
kids together and gave them a pep talk about the kind of group we all wanted
to be a part of. The kids "got it" and encouraged the few who were
uncomfortable with Trayton to give him another try. This came up
beautifully one day when, on the way home from park day, Tray explained to
me how a new kid was trying to convince the others to ditch him and his
friends stood up to the boy and said "We like Trayton. He has good ideas. "
They explained to the new boy that they wouldn't be mean to Trayton and
though they wanted the boy to play, he would have to be nice to everyone.
These kids were ages 8 to 13 at the time. I was way impressed.
The second thing that I think has contributed to our success is time. Park
day lasts a good 6 - 8 hours. Longer in summer when we stay past dark and
have a camp fire. We hardly ever miss it. As time has passed, we have also
gotten together with these same families outside the park. DD and I attend
karate together with other homeschooling families and, while he doesn't wish
to attend the class, Trayton loves to come along to have uninterrupted time
with the other homeschoolers who hang out at the studio. Several families
go to "dollar taco night " together almost every week and recently we
convinced several of our gang to join a paks&rec chess class with us so the
boys could do that together (they came even though most don't live in our
town and have to drive a ways.) Your opportunities, and your sons
interests will look different from ours but finding a way to allow loads of
unstructured low key time for them to just 'be' seems key.
Last is something I've struggled with, and that is the balance between not
enough and too much involvement from me. At first, I was on guard, worrying
that someone would be mean to him or that he would offend them somehow. But
I tried to resist over involvement. I advised him on matters when he came
to me, but tried to let him go work out himself how to fit in. Giving too
much advice sometimes undermines confidence and of course the ways he came
up with to relate were much more genuine than if I had helped. That is not
to say that I don't quietly let him know if I sense he is doing something
that makes people uncomfortable. Mostly, my involvement has been in
genuinely liking and getting to know his terrific friends myself, getting
together with their parents who (surprise!) I also enjoy, and trying to
engineer opportunities for them to be together.
Some of you might remember I recently wrote this list for advice on helping
Trayton out of a case of the blahs. Partly through responses here, I was
able to figure out that he had been missing some of this time with his
friends and craved more. We focused on that for a while and he's soooo much
better. Anyway, I know this is long but I cannot express to you the
gratitude I feel towards Trayton's friends and their awesome parents and I
wanted you to know, Nadine, that three years ago I would not have expected
this. He was such a loner (and not by choice). I hope you find some of
this helpful or hopeful on your own and your son's journey.
God bless,
Krisula
From: Nadine <nadmo@...>
Subject: Re: Re: help
I quietly and happily took in all of the "helpful" advice that I
received, and by helpful, I'll say it again, I meant not mean. When I
felt people were sending stuff that really missed the point of my
letter and my plea, I felt the need to defend/explain myself. ...
Hi Nadine,
I've been away a lot and busy this month so I'm just catching up now with
the list. I read your original post and the last couple of days' but I
missed most of what came between the two (except, of course what's been
quoted). I'm not sure this will help but your first post tugged at my heart
and I wanted to share my son's experience.
My ds10 is a great kid with lots of interesting and wonderful qualities. He
is also intense and has often needed some calming down and negotiating the
trials of everyday life.
My son is fortunate to have a whole group of friends whom he loves.
Although he did attend Sunday school, played on baseball and soccer teams,
and went to karate for a while, close friendships didn't develop for him in
these places. The place he found people patient enough to get to know him
and appreciate his many fine qualities was at park day. I am not suggesting
there is anything magical about the park but I do think there are a few
things, which made it possible for him to blossom there.
First, the unschooling nature of our group ensured that many (not all)
parents are patient and sympathetic towards children who are experiencing
intense emotions. This left me free to try and help him get his needs met
without feeling self conscious or having the need to explain to everyone why
I let this big guy cry on my lap if he wanted to. The kids, maybe b/c they
were raised in respectful homes themselves, are also, by and large, patient
and sympathetic. Kids are expected to let everyone play at our group. I
remember at one point thinking our loud that the other kids didn't want to
let my son play with them and wondering what I could do to help him fit in.
That same day, without embarrassing or demeaning anyone, another mom got the
kids together and gave them a pep talk about the kind of group we all wanted
to be a part of. The kids "got it" and encouraged the few who were
uncomfortable with Trayton to give him another try. This came up
beautifully one day when, on the way home from park day, Tray explained to
me how a new kid was trying to convince the others to ditch him and his
friends stood up to the boy and said "We like Trayton. He has good ideas. "
They explained to the new boy that they wouldn't be mean to Trayton and
though they wanted the boy to play, he would have to be nice to everyone.
These kids were ages 8 to 13 at the time. I was way impressed.
The second thing that I think has contributed to our success is time. Park
day lasts a good 6 - 8 hours. Longer in summer when we stay past dark and
have a camp fire. We hardly ever miss it. As time has passed, we have also
gotten together with these same families outside the park. DD and I attend
karate together with other homeschooling families and, while he doesn't wish
to attend the class, Trayton loves to come along to have uninterrupted time
with the other homeschoolers who hang out at the studio. Several families
go to "dollar taco night " together almost every week and recently we
convinced several of our gang to join a paks&rec chess class with us so the
boys could do that together (they came even though most don't live in our
town and have to drive a ways.) Your opportunities, and your sons
interests will look different from ours but finding a way to allow loads of
unstructured low key time for them to just 'be' seems key.
Last is something I've struggled with, and that is the balance between not
enough and too much involvement from me. At first, I was on guard, worrying
that someone would be mean to him or that he would offend them somehow. But
I tried to resist over involvement. I advised him on matters when he came
to me, but tried to let him go work out himself how to fit in. Giving too
much advice sometimes undermines confidence and of course the ways he came
up with to relate were much more genuine than if I had helped. That is not
to say that I don't quietly let him know if I sense he is doing something
that makes people uncomfortable. Mostly, my involvement has been in
genuinely liking and getting to know his terrific friends myself, getting
together with their parents who (surprise!) I also enjoy, and trying to
engineer opportunities for them to be together.
Some of you might remember I recently wrote this list for advice on helping
Trayton out of a case of the blahs. Partly through responses here, I was
able to figure out that he had been missing some of this time with his
friends and craved more. We focused on that for a while and he's soooo much
better. Anyway, I know this is long but I cannot express to you the
gratitude I feel towards Trayton's friends and their awesome parents and I
wanted you to know, Nadine, that three years ago I would not have expected
this. He was such a loner (and not by choice). I hope you find some of
this helpful or hopeful on your own and your son's journey.
God bless,
Krisula
Kay Alina
I just want to say I was using that term only in regard to a yardstick for myself. I am guilty of spewing senseless drivel on occasion. I do not know anyone on this board well enough yet to accuse them of such. I however know myself very well. I babble and forget the point I was trying to make. Believe me, once I have been here for awhile you will see how much senseless drivel I am capable of.
Kay
Kay
----- Original Message -----
From: tuckervill2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2004 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] help
In a message dated 4/23/2004 4:09:02 PM Central Standard Time,
angelsguard@... writes:
I had a feeling when you were qualifying the feedback be helpful you
were just asking others to not waste their breath on sesneless drivel.
~~~
I guess senseless drivel is in the eye of the beholder.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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