[AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
[email protected]
I don't know if it was here or on the unschoolingdiscussion list, but
recently someone posted (and I don't remember what thread/topic it was under either
<G>) about one of their children who says "I know" a lot. I am having that same
experience with Moly right now. Example, she was painting and came and asked
about a brush I have that she has never used. She wanted to know if she could
use it and how to use it. I explained it similar to another she has used and
started to show her how to hold it to get the desired effect. Then came the "I
kNOw Mom." Complete with rolled eyes and a huff as she walked off.
I never know what to say to this. It really frustrates me when she says it,
and it really frustrates me when she comes to me later and says things like
this ___ didn't work right, or my favorite; you told me such and such and that's
not true. Like with the painting, she came later, crying, blaming me for her
not-turned-out-right picture. I tried to comfort her and tell her it looked
fine, but she wouldn't have it. All she did was stand and accuse me. "YOU told me
it was JUST like that other brush." I wanted to say that I had tried to show
her how to use it, I wanted to say I didn't say it was just like the other
brush, but similar. I wanted to say a lot of things, #%@*!!! (It isn't like I was
trying to show her on her picture, I was in another room and had grabbed a
piece of scrap paper to show her on.) I wanted to be able to tell her I was
sorry, but I wasn't sorry and I honestly didn't think I had anything to be sorry
for. And this isn't a one time occurrence. It happens lots. She made cookies
one day. I tried to tell her that the powdered sugar is in a similar jar as the
one I keep the baking soda in. She *Knew* already. An hour later she had these
flat, falling apart, cookies and again, it was my fault. She mailed a bunch
of things to my Mom, she put stamps on, but not enough. I said we should
probably take it to the post office to weigh it and see how much postage she would
need. I told her I was going later that afternoon. She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
recently someone posted (and I don't remember what thread/topic it was under either
<G>) about one of their children who says "I know" a lot. I am having that same
experience with Moly right now. Example, she was painting and came and asked
about a brush I have that she has never used. She wanted to know if she could
use it and how to use it. I explained it similar to another she has used and
started to show her how to hold it to get the desired effect. Then came the "I
kNOw Mom." Complete with rolled eyes and a huff as she walked off.
I never know what to say to this. It really frustrates me when she says it,
and it really frustrates me when she comes to me later and says things like
this ___ didn't work right, or my favorite; you told me such and such and that's
not true. Like with the painting, she came later, crying, blaming me for her
not-turned-out-right picture. I tried to comfort her and tell her it looked
fine, but she wouldn't have it. All she did was stand and accuse me. "YOU told me
it was JUST like that other brush." I wanted to say that I had tried to show
her how to use it, I wanted to say I didn't say it was just like the other
brush, but similar. I wanted to say a lot of things, #%@*!!! (It isn't like I was
trying to show her on her picture, I was in another room and had grabbed a
piece of scrap paper to show her on.) I wanted to be able to tell her I was
sorry, but I wasn't sorry and I honestly didn't think I had anything to be sorry
for. And this isn't a one time occurrence. It happens lots. She made cookies
one day. I tried to tell her that the powdered sugar is in a similar jar as the
one I keep the baking soda in. She *Knew* already. An hour later she had these
flat, falling apart, cookies and again, it was my fault. She mailed a bunch
of things to my Mom, she put stamps on, but not enough. I said we should
probably take it to the post office to weigh it and see how much postage she would
need. I told her I was going later that afternoon. She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catherine aceto
How old is she?
-cat
-cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Dnowens@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
I don't know if it was here or on the unschoolingdiscussion list, but
recently someone posted (and I don't remember what thread/topic it was under either
<G>) about one of their children who says "I know" a lot. I am having that same
experience with Moly right now. Example, she was painting and came and asked
about a brush I have that she has never used. She wanted to know if she could
use it and how to use it. I explained it similar to another she has used and
started to show her how to hold it to get the desired effect. Then came the "I
kNOw Mom." Complete with rolled eyes and a huff as she walked off.
I never know what to say to this. It really frustrates me when she says it,
and it really frustrates me when she comes to me later and says things like
this ___ didn't work right, or my favorite; you told me such and such and that's
not true. Like with the painting, she came later, crying, blaming me for her
not-turned-out-right picture. I tried to comfort her and tell her it looked
fine, but she wouldn't have it. All she did was stand and accuse me. "YOU told me
it was JUST like that other brush." I wanted to say that I had tried to show
her how to use it, I wanted to say I didn't say it was just like the other
brush, but similar. I wanted to say a lot of things, #%@*!!! (It isn't like I was
trying to show her on her picture, I was in another room and had grabbed a
piece of scrap paper to show her on.) I wanted to be able to tell her I was
sorry, but I wasn't sorry and I honestly didn't think I had anything to be sorry
for. And this isn't a one time occurrence. It happens lots. She made cookies
one day. I tried to tell her that the powdered sugar is in a similar jar as the
one I keep the baking soda in. She *Knew* already. An hour later she had these
flat, falling apart, cookies and again, it was my fault. She mailed a bunch
of things to my Mom, she put stamps on, but not enough. I said we should
probably take it to the post office to weigh it and see how much postage she would
need. I told her I was going later that afternoon. She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catherine aceto
When I get this reaction from my 5 almost 6 yo, it is usually because I have been conveying hte information in a preachy or teachy voice rather than the one I would use to give information to a friend. Or trying to teach her how to build a clock if she has only asked what time it is.
-Cat
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Dnowens@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
I don't know if it was here or on the unschoolingdiscussion list, but
recently someone posted (and I don't remember what thread/topic it was under either
<G>) about one of their children who says "I know" a lot. I am having that same
experience with Moly right now. Example, she was painting and came and asked
about a brush I have that she has never used. She wanted to know if she could
use it and how to use it. I explained it similar to another she has used and
started to show her how to hold it to get the desired effect. Then came the "I
kNOw Mom." Complete with rolled eyes and a huff as she walked off.
I never know what to say to this. It really frustrates me when she says it,
and it really frustrates me when she comes to me later and says things like
this ___ didn't work right, or my favorite; you told me such and such and that's
not true. Like with the painting, she came later, crying, blaming me for her
not-turned-out-right picture. I tried to comfort her and tell her it looked
fine, but she wouldn't have it. All she did was stand and accuse me. "YOU told me
it was JUST like that other brush." I wanted to say that I had tried to show
her how to use it, I wanted to say I didn't say it was just like the other
brush, but similar. I wanted to say a lot of things, #%@*!!! (It isn't like I was
trying to show her on her picture, I was in another room and had grabbed a
piece of scrap paper to show her on.) I wanted to be able to tell her I was
sorry, but I wasn't sorry and I honestly didn't think I had anything to be sorry
for. And this isn't a one time occurrence. It happens lots. She made cookies
one day. I tried to tell her that the powdered sugar is in a similar jar as the
one I keep the baking soda in. She *Knew* already. An hour later she had these
flat, falling apart, cookies and again, it was my fault. She mailed a bunch
of things to my Mom, she put stamps on, but not enough. I said we should
probably take it to the post office to weigh it and see how much postage she would
need. I told her I was going later that afternoon. She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
~Nancy
He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered
whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
Douglas Adams
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/03 10:02:58 AM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating
me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
About the time Kirby was born, I had a new friend. He's still my friend, but
at the time he was 20 or so, just out of teens, and he hung around with me a
lot and he knows my family well. Jeff Cunico. Great guy. We've had many
adventures, mostly SCA related. At the time I first hung out with him I was
queen and he was new. 17 years later he's been king five times. I was his
chief advisor a couple of those times, and often his editor/ghostwriter, speech
tweaker and counsellor.
One time he said "I learned to trust you not from the times I listened to
you, but from the times I didn't listen to you."
I think that can work with kids too. There have been times I really wanted
to pull Kirby back and say "NO REALLY, listen to me. Your way is not going to
work." And sometimes I have done just that. But when I've "made" him do it
my way, he learned less than when I said "Well that's not what I would do, but
try it," and didn't hold him down squirming.
The first weekend he took his new cash card out, despite our reminders to
choose his cash machines wisely, he ended up with $10 in charges. That he will
remember well. And he'll remember we were right. And it only cost him $10!
<bwg>
Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I would say "I
think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to mean
'the conversation is over.'"
That makes it her turn to say something, or at least think. You wouldn't
have to ask her to respond. Just leave it lying there. You might not be the
only person she's saying it to.
With the brush, instead of telling her what the similarity is, if you think
she has a two-statement attention span, just give her the difference. "It
works differently from the other brush [in whatever way] so remember [whatever]."
With the postage, I just have a scale. It's old rates, but it's easy enough
to translate.
There's also a website, http://usps.com/
which will walk you through all kinds of postal stuff.
There's calculate postage:
http://usps.com/tools/calculatepostage/welcome.htm?from=home&page=0061calculat
epostage
It's fun to just read what can and can't be sent to other countries.
If you can slip that site into her consciousness or her favorite places
links, you bypass yourself as a middle-man or factor.
Sandra
<< She said she *Knew* how much
she needed, rolled her eyes and mailed it anyway. It was returned for
insufficient postage. Again MY FAULT. Argggh! My sweet child is frustrating
me and
herself! I need to work through this with her, but I'm not so sure how to go
about it.
>>Marty used to say "I know" to me for a long time, when he was ten or eleven.
About the time Kirby was born, I had a new friend. He's still my friend, but
at the time he was 20 or so, just out of teens, and he hung around with me a
lot and he knows my family well. Jeff Cunico. Great guy. We've had many
adventures, mostly SCA related. At the time I first hung out with him I was
queen and he was new. 17 years later he's been king five times. I was his
chief advisor a couple of those times, and often his editor/ghostwriter, speech
tweaker and counsellor.
One time he said "I learned to trust you not from the times I listened to
you, but from the times I didn't listen to you."
I think that can work with kids too. There have been times I really wanted
to pull Kirby back and say "NO REALLY, listen to me. Your way is not going to
work." And sometimes I have done just that. But when I've "made" him do it
my way, he learned less than when I said "Well that's not what I would do, but
try it," and didn't hold him down squirming.
The first weekend he took his new cash card out, despite our reminders to
choose his cash machines wisely, he ended up with $10 in charges. That he will
remember well. And he'll remember we were right. And it only cost him $10!
<bwg>
Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I would say "I
think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to mean
'the conversation is over.'"
That makes it her turn to say something, or at least think. You wouldn't
have to ask her to respond. Just leave it lying there. You might not be the
only person she's saying it to.
With the brush, instead of telling her what the similarity is, if you think
she has a two-statement attention span, just give her the difference. "It
works differently from the other brush [in whatever way] so remember [whatever]."
With the postage, I just have a scale. It's old rates, but it's easy enough
to translate.
There's also a website, http://usps.com/
which will walk you through all kinds of postal stuff.
There's calculate postage:
http://usps.com/tools/calculatepostage/welcome.htm?from=home&page=0061calculat
epostage
It's fun to just read what can and can't be sent to other countries.
If you can slip that site into her consciousness or her favorite places
links, you bypass yourself as a middle-man or factor.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/03 11:05:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
aceto3@... writes:
How old is she?
-cat
########
Moly is nine, she will be ten in January.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aceto3@... writes:
How old is she?
-cat
########
Moly is nine, she will be ten in January.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/03 11:31:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I would say "I
think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to mean
'the conversation is over.'"
That makes it her turn to say something, or at least think. You wouldn't
have to ask her to respond. Just leave it lying there. You might not be the
only person she's saying it to.
####################
I think your suggestions are great, and thank you. I guess my problem is the
attitude. I have heard her use this same tone with others and it bothers me.
It bothers me because I wonder if she got that tone, response (I Know) and
attitude from me. (it also bothers me because one of the things I can't get rid of
is that old *what will they think* in the back of my head) I don't think she
did and I have been consciously listening to myself in conversations. Do I put
off people with eye rolling? Do I stop people who are trying to show/tell me
something with words like I know? I've really been looking at that for a few
weeks now, I still don't see it in myself, and I hope I never do. I wonder
then, where did she get it? I ask myself if I am preachy or teacher like. Darin
says no, I'm not, but he isn't exactly partial. I hope she grows out of this
like you said Kirby did. I don't want to force her to do things *my way* I grew
up like that. I don't want to chafe her. I keep my mouth shut most times when
she rolls her eyes and states she knows half way through even the shortest
statements telling her something. It's just coming to a head lately. Obviously I
can't expect her to know everything or that she know things like adults know
things and I don't want her life to be frustrating. It just seems like she is
making her life frustrating. Like the painting, she was frustrated that what she
wanted didn't happen. I could have said that she couldn't use that particular
brush, but I want her to be able to experience everything. I could have
ignored the other brush and just showed her how to use it, but she didn't give me
the chance to do even that. She was frustrated that the cookies were inedible.
I see that I could have just put the baking soda out for her and not said
anything about the powdered sugar being in a similar jar, I could have handed her
a few more stamps and said; "this should do it." If I had though, would she
have resisted that as well? I guess I won't know. I'm going to have to keep in
mind her frustrations and tailor my responses to her questions. And in the mean
time, hope she grows out of this need to make statements like "I know". I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her things
or show her how to do something. (me included)
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I would say "I
think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to mean
'the conversation is over.'"
That makes it her turn to say something, or at least think. You wouldn't
have to ask her to respond. Just leave it lying there. You might not be the
only person she's saying it to.
####################
I think your suggestions are great, and thank you. I guess my problem is the
attitude. I have heard her use this same tone with others and it bothers me.
It bothers me because I wonder if she got that tone, response (I Know) and
attitude from me. (it also bothers me because one of the things I can't get rid of
is that old *what will they think* in the back of my head) I don't think she
did and I have been consciously listening to myself in conversations. Do I put
off people with eye rolling? Do I stop people who are trying to show/tell me
something with words like I know? I've really been looking at that for a few
weeks now, I still don't see it in myself, and I hope I never do. I wonder
then, where did she get it? I ask myself if I am preachy or teacher like. Darin
says no, I'm not, but he isn't exactly partial. I hope she grows out of this
like you said Kirby did. I don't want to force her to do things *my way* I grew
up like that. I don't want to chafe her. I keep my mouth shut most times when
she rolls her eyes and states she knows half way through even the shortest
statements telling her something. It's just coming to a head lately. Obviously I
can't expect her to know everything or that she know things like adults know
things and I don't want her life to be frustrating. It just seems like she is
making her life frustrating. Like the painting, she was frustrated that what she
wanted didn't happen. I could have said that she couldn't use that particular
brush, but I want her to be able to experience everything. I could have
ignored the other brush and just showed her how to use it, but she didn't give me
the chance to do even that. She was frustrated that the cookies were inedible.
I see that I could have just put the baking soda out for her and not said
anything about the powdered sugar being in a similar jar, I could have handed her
a few more stamps and said; "this should do it." If I had though, would she
have resisted that as well? I guess I won't know. I'm going to have to keep in
mind her frustrations and tailor my responses to her questions. And in the mean
time, hope she grows out of this need to make statements like "I know". I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her things
or show her how to do something. (me included)
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/03 1:23:40 PM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her
things
or show her how to do something. (me included) >>
I've told my kids that they're communicating with more than words, and if
they want to be subtle, they need to be careful with posture and facial
expressions, eye rolling, tongue-clucking, etc., because they were DEFINITE signs of
disapproval and if they didn't want people to know they were expressing
negativity they needed to guard more than just words.
Not all that at once, but various parts and various times. <g>
Sandra
<< I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her
things
or show her how to do something. (me included) >>
I've told my kids that they're communicating with more than words, and if
they want to be subtle, they need to be careful with posture and facial
expressions, eye rolling, tongue-clucking, etc., because they were DEFINITE signs of
disapproval and if they didn't want people to know they were expressing
negativity they needed to guard more than just words.
Not all that at once, but various parts and various times. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/03 1:23:40 PM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her
things
or show her how to do something. (me included) >>
"Poker face" has been shorthand for that---forgot to say. The kids will even
say it to each other, and Marty is good at exaggerated sarcastic facial
expressions as humor. Like to amuse Holly, he'll say one thing to me and then make
ALL the hand and facial gestures that mean the opposite. Like "Sure Mom,
I'd LOVE to," while putting on a whole mime show of how dumb it is and how he
really doesn't want to.
He never does it for real, just for fun. But the message is still there that
he DOES understand the non-verbal communications.
Sandra
<< I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her
things
or show her how to do something. (me included) >>
"Poker face" has been shorthand for that---forgot to say. The kids will even
say it to each other, and Marty is good at exaggerated sarcastic facial
expressions as humor. Like to amuse Holly, he'll say one thing to me and then make
ALL the hand and facial gestures that mean the opposite. Like "Sure Mom,
I'd LOVE to," while putting on a whole mime show of how dumb it is and how he
really doesn't want to.
He never does it for real, just for fun. But the message is still there that
he DOES understand the non-verbal communications.
Sandra
AM Brown
I
or are getting a particular message - sharing that gives her information.
She can decide how she wants to use that information. I find my girls can
talk quite effectively about their feelings in a non-hurtful way because
that is how we all treat each other. If you don't tell her it hurts you
or that you don't understand her message then how is she supposed to know?
I feel like the more information we can give the better. It is still up
to the child to decide how to use it. We may or may not like their choices
but at least we have been honest about our feelings and show them that
emotions and feelings can be expressed in a loving, non threatening way.
Anna
> would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and theeye
> rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tellher things
> or show her how to do something. (me included)I guess i have found sharing my feelings has been helpful. If you are hurt
or are getting a particular message - sharing that gives her information.
She can decide how she wants to use that information. I find my girls can
talk quite effectively about their feelings in a non-hurtful way because
that is how we all treat each other. If you don't tell her it hurts you
or that you don't understand her message then how is she supposed to know?
I feel like the more information we can give the better. It is still up
to the child to decide how to use it. We may or may not like their choices
but at least we have been honest about our feelings and show them that
emotions and feelings can be expressed in a loving, non threatening way.
Anna
Julie
Nancy wrote:
<<I don't want to force her to do things *my way* I grew
up like that. I don't want to chafe her. I keep my mouth shut most times when
she rolls her eyes and states she knows half way through even the shortest
statements telling her something. It's just coming to a head lately.>>
I don't have any kids yet; I'm just very interested in the whole concept of unschooling. Could you tell her how you feel when she says "I know" in a particular tone? It seems like it's very frustrating for you and you're trying to hold back for her sake. What would happen if you didn't hold back?
I don't know about you, but when someone says "I know" to me in a particular tone or rolls their eyes at me, it really pushes my buttons because I feel I'm not being respected or taken seriously. Could you share the way you're feeling with your daughter and find a solution together? Maybe she can better explain what she's feeling when she says "I know." And maybe knowing how you feel will give her a different perspective.
Of course, anyone should set me straight if I'm in complete la-la land here. :) I don't have a lot of practical experience with very young people.
Julie
"Children do not need to be made to learn about the world, or shown how. They want to, and they know how."
--John Holt
<<I don't want to force her to do things *my way* I grew
up like that. I don't want to chafe her. I keep my mouth shut most times when
she rolls her eyes and states she knows half way through even the shortest
statements telling her something. It's just coming to a head lately.>>
I don't have any kids yet; I'm just very interested in the whole concept of unschooling. Could you tell her how you feel when she says "I know" in a particular tone? It seems like it's very frustrating for you and you're trying to hold back for her sake. What would happen if you didn't hold back?
I don't know about you, but when someone says "I know" to me in a particular tone or rolls their eyes at me, it really pushes my buttons because I feel I'm not being respected or taken seriously. Could you share the way you're feeling with your daughter and find a solution together? Maybe she can better explain what she's feeling when she says "I know." And maybe knowing how you feel will give her a different perspective.
Of course, anyone should set me straight if I'm in complete la-la land here. :) I don't have a lot of practical experience with very young people.
Julie
"Children do not need to be made to learn about the world, or shown how. They want to, and they know how."
--John Holt
----- Original Message -----
From: Dnowens@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
In a message dated 10/14/03 11:31:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I would say "I
think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to mean
'the conversation is over.'"
That makes it her turn to say something, or at least think. You wouldn't
have to ask her to respond. Just leave it lying there. You might not be the
only person she's saying it to.
####################
I think your suggestions are great, and thank you. I guess my problem is the
attitude. I have heard her use this same tone with others and it bothers me.
It bothers me because I wonder if she got that tone, response (I Know) and
attitude from me. (it also bothers me because one of the things I can't get rid of
is that old *what will they think* in the back of my head) I don't think she
did and I have been consciously listening to myself in conversations. Do I put
off people with eye rolling? Do I stop people who are trying to show/tell me
something with words like I know? I've really been looking at that for a few
weeks now, I still don't see it in myself, and I hope I never do. I wonder
then, where did she get it? I ask myself if I am preachy or teacher like. Darin
says no, I'm not, but he isn't exactly partial. I hope she grows out of this
like you said Kirby did. I don't want to force her to do things *my way* I grew
up like that. I don't want to chafe her. I keep my mouth shut most times when
she rolls her eyes and states she knows half way through even the shortest
statements telling her something. It's just coming to a head lately. Obviously I
can't expect her to know everything or that she know things like adults know
things and I don't want her life to be frustrating. It just seems like she is
making her life frustrating. Like the painting, she was frustrated that what she
wanted didn't happen. I could have said that she couldn't use that particular
brush, but I want her to be able to experience everything. I could have
ignored the other brush and just showed her how to use it, but she didn't give me
the chance to do even that. She was frustrated that the cookies were inedible.
I see that I could have just put the baking soda out for her and not said
anything about the powdered sugar being in a similar jar, I could have handed her
a few more stamps and said; "this should do it." If I had though, would she
have resisted that as well? I guess I won't know. I'm going to have to keep in
mind her frustrations and tailor my responses to her questions. And in the mean
time, hope she grows out of this need to make statements like "I know". I
would love to come up with a gentle way to tell her that her tone and the eye
rolling puts people off, that it makes it so people don't want to tell her things
or show her how to do something. (me included)
~Nancy
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pam sorooshian
On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 09:23 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
often know! <G>
I did talk to her about it directly - said that it was kind of annoying
because it felt like she was not valuing the information or help I was
offering. Pointed out that if she kept that up and did it with other
people they'd be way less likely to offer information and help when she
DID want it. Also pointed out to her that there would be lots of times
in her life when people told her stuff she already knew and that it
could be kind of rude to point it out to them every time.
Then I occasionally would say, "Do you really know?" Just kind of
casually to point out to her that she was saying it and I wasn't sure
if she meant it.
Time went by. It stopped and I didn't notice when.
-pam
> Nancy, with the stuff like the brushes or the postage, I think I wouldThat was me, Nancy, with my daughter, Roya - who is now 18 and DOES
> say "I
> think you say 'I know' without realizing you say it, and it seems to
> mean
> 'the conversation is over.'"
often know! <G>
I did talk to her about it directly - said that it was kind of annoying
because it felt like she was not valuing the information or help I was
offering. Pointed out that if she kept that up and did it with other
people they'd be way less likely to offer information and help when she
DID want it. Also pointed out to her that there would be lots of times
in her life when people told her stuff she already knew and that it
could be kind of rude to point it out to them every time.
Then I occasionally would say, "Do you really know?" Just kind of
casually to point out to her that she was saying it and I wasn't sure
if she meant it.
Time went by. It stopped and I didn't notice when.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/15/03 07:44:34 AM Central Daylight Time,
KathrynJB@... writes:
What has worked for us is conversations about how it hurts our feelings when
J isn't nice to us. We try to be nice to him as much as possible, and it
matters that he treat us well too. We can always follow up in the heat of the
moment with just a quiet "I would really like you to speak to me in a kinder
way."
A lot of the time he isn't even aware of it, and it's generally followed by a
very quick apology. You do get to be treated kindly, too. If she NEEDS to
say
"I KNOW!" and not listen to your suggestion, then at least you don't get
dumped on. (And being kind to you includes not blaming you if the projects
don't
work out.)
As far her ignoring your suggestions -- Well...I guess that's those logical
consequences we've all heard so much about!
I suppose if she keeps blaming you, you could have her sign a contract that
acknowledges that she KNOWS, and that results, positive and negative are her
own responsibility. LOL
But I would mostly stress that she has to be nice to you. It feels awaful
when our kids are mean to us.
Kathryn
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I wasn't even thinking about those natural consequences! It really means a
lot to me, yours, Pam's and Sandra's suggestions. I wasn't a nice mom when Moly
was little(er) and I resolved I would change and be a better mom, wife,
person, and I did spank Jack once too, after that resolution, and felt so horrible
about that I flogged myself over it. I am one of those people who have to make
a conscious effort to keep my mouth shut, sit on my hands, all those things
when I get mad. I have to talk to myself, remind myself that I don't want to be
treated badly, no one else does either. And when I am angry; the day is going
badly, I'm stressed, whatever, I have to make myself think about what it is
exactly that I am stressed over and who's fault is it I am feeling that way?
Usually mine. But when Moly is fussing at me for one thing or another and I try
to help her and then I get the attitude, the *I know* and the eye rolls it just
makes me think if all the things I have done are for naught, and if my
conscientious decisions to be a better person are just biting me in the butt. Then I
have to remind myself that it isn't all about me or what I want, and maybe
she is just trying to tell me something and she doesn't know how or what words
to use. My Mom reminded me that Moly didn't just pick this up on her own, she
had to have some model for this behavior. So that means that I have to work on
my own more too.
Thanks!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
KathrynJB@... writes:
What has worked for us is conversations about how it hurts our feelings when
J isn't nice to us. We try to be nice to him as much as possible, and it
matters that he treat us well too. We can always follow up in the heat of the
moment with just a quiet "I would really like you to speak to me in a kinder
way."
A lot of the time he isn't even aware of it, and it's generally followed by a
very quick apology. You do get to be treated kindly, too. If she NEEDS to
say
"I KNOW!" and not listen to your suggestion, then at least you don't get
dumped on. (And being kind to you includes not blaming you if the projects
don't
work out.)
As far her ignoring your suggestions -- Well...I guess that's those logical
consequences we've all heard so much about!
I suppose if she keeps blaming you, you could have her sign a contract that
acknowledges that she KNOWS, and that results, positive and negative are her
own responsibility. LOL
But I would mostly stress that she has to be nice to you. It feels awaful
when our kids are mean to us.
Kathryn
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I wasn't even thinking about those natural consequences! It really means a
lot to me, yours, Pam's and Sandra's suggestions. I wasn't a nice mom when Moly
was little(er) and I resolved I would change and be a better mom, wife,
person, and I did spank Jack once too, after that resolution, and felt so horrible
about that I flogged myself over it. I am one of those people who have to make
a conscious effort to keep my mouth shut, sit on my hands, all those things
when I get mad. I have to talk to myself, remind myself that I don't want to be
treated badly, no one else does either. And when I am angry; the day is going
badly, I'm stressed, whatever, I have to make myself think about what it is
exactly that I am stressed over and who's fault is it I am feeling that way?
Usually mine. But when Moly is fussing at me for one thing or another and I try
to help her and then I get the attitude, the *I know* and the eye rolls it just
makes me think if all the things I have done are for naught, and if my
conscientious decisions to be a better person are just biting me in the butt. Then I
have to remind myself that it isn't all about me or what I want, and maybe
she is just trying to tell me something and she doesn't know how or what words
to use. My Mom reminded me that Moly didn't just pick this up on her own, she
had to have some model for this behavior. So that means that I have to work on
my own more too.
Thanks!
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/15/03 9:11:18 AM, Dnowens@... writes:
<< But when Moly is fussing at me for one thing or another and I try
to help her and then I get the attitude, the *I know* and the eye rolls it
just
makes me think if all the things I have done are for naught, and if my
conscientious decisions to be a better person are just biting me in the butt.
(or whatever their justification was) to a more conscious way, that they
don't have a set of responses to replace the old ones.
Some of the wilder unschooled kids I've seen have had moms who've said
something almost the same as "I used to hit him and now I don't, so now I don't know
what to do."
If it's within the first year, it's understandable that the kid would be
kinda celebrating his freedom, but if it's been longer, maybe the mom's
forgetting to establish a new relationship that involves the kind of communication it
takes to negotiate a rough day. Easy days are easy. It's when someone's
wired or frustrated (mom or kid or visitor or whoever) that it gets frazzly.
We could collect suggestions and I could link them to that spanking
collection I have at
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
AND... I've put a lefthand column of links on my unschooling page, because
the rabbit-warren-style website I had gradually developed was becoming
unmanageable. Maybe it's still difficult, but at least people can go to one main page.
http://SandraDodd.com/unschooling
but this one works fairly well to get around too and it's less typing for
those entering by hand by memory from other computers:
http://sandradodd.com/life
<< But when Moly is fussing at me for one thing or another and I try
to help her and then I get the attitude, the *I know* and the eye rolls it
just
makes me think if all the things I have done are for naught, and if my
conscientious decisions to be a better person are just biting me in the butt.
>>I have noticed with some moms who change from parenting the way their mom did
(or whatever their justification was) to a more conscious way, that they
don't have a set of responses to replace the old ones.
Some of the wilder unschooled kids I've seen have had moms who've said
something almost the same as "I used to hit him and now I don't, so now I don't know
what to do."
If it's within the first year, it's understandable that the kid would be
kinda celebrating his freedom, but if it's been longer, maybe the mom's
forgetting to establish a new relationship that involves the kind of communication it
takes to negotiate a rough day. Easy days are easy. It's when someone's
wired or frustrated (mom or kid or visitor or whoever) that it gets frazzly.
We could collect suggestions and I could link them to that spanking
collection I have at
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
AND... I've put a lefthand column of links on my unschooling page, because
the rabbit-warren-style website I had gradually developed was becoming
unmanageable. Maybe it's still difficult, but at least people can go to one main page.
http://SandraDodd.com/unschooling
but this one works fairly well to get around too and it's less typing for
those entering by hand by memory from other computers:
http://sandradodd.com/life
Julie Solich
>>Some of the wilder unschooled kids I've seen have had moms who've said something almost the same as "I used to hit him and now I don't, so now I don't know what to do." If it's within the first year, it's understandable that the kid would bekinda celebrating his freedom, but if it's been longer, maybe the mom's
forgetting to establish a new relationship that involves the kind of communication it takes to negotiate a rough day.>>>
I can definitely relate to this. For the first couple of months after we stopped spanking there was chaos! It was a little scary. I felt at a complete loss most of the time and wondered if it was going to work. I found heaps of great stuff through Sandra's site, printed it off and stuck it everywhere.
Things are good now, we have worked hard to find new ways to deal with situations. It's harder at first because you have to learn to control yourself rather than the kids but it gets easier to be nice! And it does rub off onto the kids eventually.
Julie
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ANGELA LOFTON
OK. I must have missed it. What is the web address to "Sandra's" site?
Angela
Angela
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Solich" <mjsolich@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
>
> >>Some of the wilder unschooled kids I've seen have had moms who've said
something almost the same as "I used to hit him and now I don't, so now I
don't know what to do." If it's within the first year, it's understandable
that the kid would be
> kinda celebrating his freedom, but if it's been longer, maybe the mom's
> forgetting to establish a new relationship that involves the kind of
communication it takes to negotiate a rough day.>>>
>
> I can definitely relate to this. For the first couple of months after we
stopped spanking there was chaos! It was a little scary. I felt at a
complete loss most of the time and wondered if it was going to work. I found
heaps of great stuff through Sandra's site, printed it off and stuck it
everywhere.
>
> Things are good now, we have worked hard to find new ways to deal with
situations. It's harder at first because you have to learn to control
yourself rather than the kids but it gets easier to be nice! And it does rub
off onto the kids eventually.
>
> Julie
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/17/03 11:26:49 AM, cty34995@... writes:
<< OK. I must have missed it. What is the web address to "Sandra's" site? >>
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
Sandra
<< OK. I must have missed it. What is the web address to "Sandra's" site? >>
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
Sandra
Julie
Sandra wrote:
<<http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
Sandra>>
No, actually I did a search for "unschooling" at www.yahoogroups.com. Glad I found you! :)
Julie
<<http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
Sandra>>
No, actually I did a search for "unschooling" at www.yahoogroups.com. Glad I found you! :)
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
In a message dated 10/17/03 11:26:49 AM, cty34995@... writes:
<< OK. I must have missed it. What is the web address to "Sandra's" site? >>
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
Sandra
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ANGELA LOFTON
Sorry, should have looked at your address. I probably found it like I find
most everything from a link, from a link, from a link. :-)
most everything from a link, from a link, from a link. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I know Mom
>
> In a message dated 10/17/03 11:26:49 AM, cty34995@... writes:
>
> << OK. I must have missed it. What is the web address to "Sandra's"
site? >>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
>
> I thought that's the only way people ever found this list!
>
> Sandra
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Danny Arsenault
Hi,
I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc. But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations, anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! Thanks,
Danny
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I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc. But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations, anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! Thanks,
Danny
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Tia Leschke
>Most large cities have a large immigrant community. Maybe there are
>
>I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I
>try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more
>Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can
>find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself
>I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc.
>But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would
>like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never
>occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations,
>anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! Thanks,
Tibetan refugees in your area who would be willing to come for a meal and
conversation in Tibetan. It would be quite stilted at first, until you
learned some of the language, but immersion is really the best way to learn
a language. Possibly you could even find Tibetan videos to immerse yourself
in. Hearing the language for a long time, just learning to hear and
recognize the sounds of the language is how babies learn to talk.
Tia
Julie
Danny wrote:
<<I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc. But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations, anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! >>
I think any way you approach learning, as long is it comes from a genuine desire within yourself, is "Holtian." Even the same broken down, old-fashioned methods can help you to learn as long as you're responding to a genuine desire for knowledge. To me, the method is less important than the reason for learning. If you're learning because you feel an obligation to accumulate languages or to please someone else, then that's something you're forcing on yourself. But if something within you is just leaning in that direction, then I say follow that instinct until it doesn't feel right anymore.
Julie B.
<<I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc. But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations, anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! >>
I think any way you approach learning, as long is it comes from a genuine desire within yourself, is "Holtian." Even the same broken down, old-fashioned methods can help you to learn as long as you're responding to a genuine desire for knowledge. To me, the method is less important than the reason for learning. If you're learning because you feel an obligation to accumulate languages or to please someone else, then that's something you're forcing on yourself. But if something within you is just leaning in that direction, then I say follow that instinct until it doesn't feel right anymore.
Julie B.
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Arsenault
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 1:24 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling Myself
Hi,
I love John Holt's ideas. But they are confusing me a little bit when I try to apply them to myself. I would like to approach learning in a more Holtian way. I've been wanting to learn Tibetan, but all the books I can find are the same old broken down old-fashioned methods. So I tell myself I should get Tibetan kids' books, try to find native Tibetan things, etc. But then I get a litte annoyed at myself because the very idea "I would like to learn Tibetan" seems to be an artificial thing which would never occur to a person learning naturally. Any hints on this, observations, anecdotes, anything you can say about it most welcome! Thanks,
Danny
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