Norma

"Dartmouth Scientists Examine Effects of Racism on Brain"
The Boston Globe - Gareth Cook

http://tinyurl.com/vzf4

Excellent article on how even latent racism effects our brains, how
it interferes with intellectual capacity. From Brain Connection, a
great site on one of the most exciting frontiers, the human brain and
how it works.

http://www.brainconnection.com/

Norma

Shannon

I need serious help here. my ds(6) was talking totally disrespectfully to
me and I just couldn’t hold it in any longer. Now I am completely
remorseful of course. But I don’t know how to change it so that doesn’t
happen again. What am I doing wrong? Is this an age thing? Because
everything that comes out of his mouth right now is nothing but a smart*ss
remark or answer and I just am wearing thin. My son has never been to
school and we are very easy people to get along with. We don’t enforce
anything on him. I’m thinking at this point, maybe we should enforce some
things on him to change this behavior. But then I come here and read and
KNOW that that isn’t the answer. But I don’t know what IS the answer.
Somebody please help me get this straight. <sob>

Shan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

I'm so sorry this happened, for you and your son.

Suggestion:

There is no way for things to go along like it just never happened. So talk
to your son. Tell him you were wrong, that you are sorry, that you are
trying to find better ways.

Next, take a close look at what is going on with your son. Why is he so
angry with you? Is it just aimed at you, or is he like this with everyone?

Also, handle your emotions as they come up. It sounds like perhaps you had
been biting down your anger at your son's behavior and then you exploded on
him. It is important to remember that NO ONE, not even a child, has the
right to be abusive to others. You most assuredly need to not allow him to
be abusive to you or anyone else. You have the right and the responsibility
to not let him demean others.

However, as you know, you do not have the right to slap him. I do think it
is fine to tell a child "You are really hurting my feelings when you call me
"stupid" and I don't want to play anymore." and get up and leave the room.
Or to tell them "I don't feel like helping you with this project when you
are mean to me and saying $#@*& is mean".

You don't have to feel like the evil mom for not always being accepting of
your child's behavior. If you wouldn't want an adult treating you in an
abusive manner, I see no reason to accept it from a child. But rather than
handling it with anger, handle it as something the child is working on,
learning, figuring out.

There really are consequences to people's behavior and kids understand that.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannon" <davenshan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Help! I slapped my child. :o(


I need serious help here. my ds(6) was talking totally disrespectfully to
me and I just couldn't hold it in any longer. Now I am completely
remorseful of course. But I don't know how to change it so that doesn't
happen again. What am I doing wrong? Is this an age thing? Because
everything that comes out of his mouth right now is nothing but a smart*ss
remark or answer and I just am wearing thin. My son has never been to
school and we are very easy people to get along with. We don't enforce
anything on him. I'm thinking at this point, maybe we should enforce some
things on him to change this behavior. But then I come here and read and
KNOW that that isn't the answer. But I don't know what IS the answer.
Somebody please help me get this straight. <sob>

Shan



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Dawn Adams

You need to walk away when you feel like that. I know where you're coming from. I used to believe in spanking and still fight the impulse to just hit my kids. It's hard, It's hard, it's hard. It's also not his problem. Do some reading on natural parenting and positive discipline to give yourself strategies for the times when he gets snarky. Suggest (actually, don't suggest, tell. Esp. if his behaviour will make you violent) at those times that he go to his room for quiet time. Let him take whatever toys or books he wants and you can both 'chill out'. But...don't forget that what really needs work right now is the impulse to hit because even if you help him through this bad bit of behaviour there will be something else, there always is.

Dawn (up in the Canadian hinterlands)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/03 9:24:20 AM, davenshan@... writes:

<< But I don’t know how to change it so that doesn’t

happen again. What am I doing wrong? Is this an age thing? Because

everything that comes out of his mouth right now is nothing but a smart*ss

remark or answer and I just am wearing thin. >>

First, read here:

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

There are links to other ideas and various related things, collected from
lots of unschoolers and a few internet links to "outside" sources of info.

My first thought was whether he WANTS to be home. We don't talk about it
much in homschooling circles, but keeping kids home against their will can cause
some of the same problems sending them to school against their will causes:
powerlessness and frustration.

Who's he hanging out with? Do you and your husband spar verbally and put
each other down for fun? Little kids can't at first tell sarcasm and humor from
meanness, and they're imitative.

He's probably at the age and size that others who see him will know he's not
at school, and if he's getting negative messages which aren't being
counter-balanced by positive, happy messages he might be feeling smaller than he needs
to feel.

I think you should get him out of the house, preferably out into nature,
walk, be with him in fresh air, apologize, ask him how he's feeling (but don't
press it so far that he never wants to go for a walk with you again, and he MIGHT
not want to talk about it) and talk about how you want things to be between
you and him, and what you are willing to do to to help it get there.

Sandra

[email protected]

Hi Shan, this may not be the most popular response but, I have to tell you
that you need to allow yourself a bit of levity here. In the wild animals
regularly show, not tell, their young that certain specific behaviors are absolutely
not to be tolerated. This type of corporal punishment, in the animal world,
is typically very judiciously applied and so, when it does occur there is a
real and abrupt awakening in the young which enables them to immediately cue in
on the importance of the message being delivered by the parent.

Of course I don't have information about 'how' you slapped your child. This
has bearing to the situation because loss of control is a warning to you and to
your child that the situation leading up to the physical altercation is not
working. Read that again, the situation leading up to the physical
altercation..... not the moment itself. I have seen children raised successfully with and
without corporal punishment and I have seen the opposite. It boils down to
that some people require a more direct and obvious form of attention getting from
the parent on occasion and others are fine without a physical reminder of
appropriate behavior.

Proponents of absolutely NO corporal punishment are the same as any other
fringe group-if the condition works for them great. But, if it isn't working for
you then you need to adjust and be okay with your adjustments regardless of
how the fringe wishes to justify their own training methods and how people, as a
species wants to justify their actions at another's expense.

If you feel that you did lose control and the action on your part was overly
severe then an apology to your child is in order. With a caveat. He must know
that his actions have consequences and even parents have limitations.

Hugs,

Tracey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aimee

First thing: apologize.

Have you told him before that his way of treating you
was bothering you, or did you let it go on til you got
frustrated?

My son had a phase where he talked to me very
disrepectfully and smart alecky, and I did a few
different things. One, when I was in a good mood, I
would respond back in kind, jokingly, not mean
sarcastic, but mirroring back how ridiculous and
obnoxious he was sounding. We would end up laughing
and joking around.


If I was stressed or hungry or tired, and he pulled
that, I would tell him straight out, and he could tell
I was mad, but in control, that I didn't appreciate
him speaking to me that way and that he should go do
something else. I put a stop to it so that I wouldn't
lose my temper, but at that point I think he also knew
that my anger was justified.

I also tried this, depeneding on the situation, like
if he seemed ready to listen for a minute. I would
tell him that it hurt my feelings to be spoken to that
way, and that I was getting angry. I would explain to
him that anger is a response to having my feelings
hurt, and that when I was angry, it was because I
thought he was being hurtful and mean. Most of the
time what worked was asking him if I ever talked to
him that way, and then I would walk away to let him
think about that.

This lasted for about three months. I remember him
being six, and it happened then too, but not as bad.
8, last year, wasn't fun either. I've wondered where
it comes from and I think it's a independence thing,
and also a developmental pushing limits thing, as
well. He probably doesn't do this with anyone but
you? My husband would step in occasionally with a
comment about how treating your mother badly was mean,
etc, and that helped some.

He didn't treat anyone else this way, and so I had
to look at my behavior and treatment of him and make
sure I wasn't contributing to the problem, like not
listening to him or paying attention, and forcing him
to be negative to get my attention.

~Aimee

pam sorooshian

On Nov 21, 2003, at 10:40 AM, tntinsol@... wrote:

> Hi Shan, this may not be the most popular response but, I have to tell
> you
> that you need to allow yourself a bit of levity here. In the wild
> animals
> regularly show, not tell, their young that certain specific behaviors
> are absolutely
> not to be tolerated.


I think Shan is hoping to find support for behaving a bit better than a
wild animal.
An appropriate comparison, though, in my opinion, because that urge to
strike out is a "reversion" and a less-than-civilized response.

The question is twofold: (1) how to resist the urge to strike our child
when it DOES arise and (2) how to avoid situations where the urge is
likely to arise.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: J. Stauffer
I'm so sorry this happened, for you and your son.

>Suggestion:

There is no way for things to go along like it just never happened. So talk
to your son. Tell him you were wrong, that you are sorry, that you are
trying to find better ways.>

[Shan replies:] That is exactly what I did as soon as I finished writing the
first time. I cried and told him how sorry I was that I hit him and hitting
is NOT OK. He was still very angry. But soon calmed down after I
apologized. I told him I feel like I am not being a good mom right now. I
can’t be a good mom when I feel like he is always angry and talking mean to
me. I asked him if there is something that I could do to help him change
the way he feels and talks. He didn’t really know what I was talking about.
Remember he is 6. I tried to put it in as simple of terms as possible. So
what I am going to do is try to do more outdoorsy things. He is such a
homebody that it is really hard to get him to go anywhere. But I think it
may help him if we get out more. who knows. But it’s worth a try.

<Next, take a close look at what is going on with your son. Why is he so
angry with you? Is it just aimed at you, or is he like this with everyone?>

now this is a hard one. He is like this with everyone. It’s not just me.
I/we (dh) tell him that the way he speaks to people is not acceptable. This
is an ongoing thing in our house. His tone and word selection is just
grates on my and my dh nerves. We’ve joked with him. We’ve been stern with
him. And then, today I’ve been mean (wrong) with him. Actually since this
happened this morning, things have been so much better. I think he may get
it. At least I hope he does. I hope this isn’t a temporary thing.

>Also, handle your emotions as they come up. It sounds like perhaps you had
been biting down your anger at your son's behavior and then you exploded on
him. It is important to remember that NO ONE, not even a child, has the
right to be abusive to others. You most assuredly need to not allow him to
be abusive to you or anyone else. You have the right and the responsibility
to not let him demean others.>

As I stated above, I do tell ds that the way he talks to me and others hurts
our feelings. People don’t like to be talked to like that even if he is
joking. It surely doesn’t sound like a joke when your feelings are hurt.


>However, as you know, you do not have the right to slap him. I do think it
is fine to tell a child "You are really hurting my feelings when you call me
"stupid" and I don't want to play anymore." and get up and leave the room.
Or to tell them "I don't feel like helping you with this project when you
are mean to me and saying $#@*& is mean".>

I know I don’t have any right to slap him. I feel like such a loser right
now. I can’t believe it has come to this. ds’ personality is such that he
whenever I’ve put my foot down and left the game or room or whatever the
case was, he just feels SO rejected and falls completely apart in a huge
raging screaming fit until I or dh come back to the room. So this method
certainly doesn’t work with him. I guess I’m going to have to find a better
way of talking to him.



Shan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/03 11:53:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

> I think Shan is hoping to find support for behaving a bit better than a
> wild animal.
> An appropriate comparison, though, in my opinion, because that urge to
> strike out is a "reversion" and a less-than-civilized response.
>
> The question is twofold: (1) how to resist the urge to strike our child
> when it DOES arise and (2) how to avoid situations where the urge is
> likely to arise.
>

I am sure she is. Thank you for your clarification of her needs. However,
unless humans first and foremost acknowledge their inherent animal nature they
are more likely to repeat behaviors strictly because they do not understand the
origin of the behavior itself. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Beyond this,
however, many accept that there is no circumstance for utilizing physical
restraints or other training aides that involve the use of the body. I believe
that if one allows this type of one sided belief system to rule their opining
then they are at serious risk themselves for not utilizing all and every
considerable tool in their repetoir at appropriate times. The duplicity encourages a
guilt response in the parent that is not in service with the ultimate needs of
the parent child relationship.

Additionally, your statements above, while I am sure are held very strongly
by you, are somewhat taken out of context of the complete message which I was
attempting to explore with Shan. I hope you reread it for context.

Finally, though you assert that Shan is hoping for a certain type of support,
only she can sufficiently judge, and therefore learn, what is most effective
for her and her family by reviewing all opinions and suggestions allowing her
to come to her own internally enlightened choice.

Thanks, I will re-enter lurk mode now....

Hugs,
Tracey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd
                                                                                            

 
First, read here:

http://sandradodd.com/spanking

[Shan replies:]  Thanks, I read above and got lots of good ideas.


 
>My first thought was whether he WANTS to be home. We don't talk about it
much in homschooling circles, but keeping kids home against their will can cause
some of the same problems sending them to school against their will causes:
powerlessness and frustration.>

I really don’t think this is an issue because all he ever has said is that he doesn’t want to go to school.

>Who's he hanging out with? Do you and your husband spar verbally and put
each other down for fun? Little kids can't at first tell sarcasm and humor from
meanness, and they're imitative.>
[Shan replies:]  His only friends in the neighborhood are two boys that used to homeschool until this year.  Now that they go to school, he doesn’t have anybody until after school.  These boys’ parents are rough to say the least.  They spank, cus, smoke and are generally hicks.  They are nice enough people, but I tend to rather have their boys over our house.  We’ve noticed that whenever Connor goes over to their house, he comes back in a really grumpy mood.  I don’t know what goes on over there.  I’ve asked, and he tells me that they play Nintendo, play outside and do normal kids things.  Nothing really strikes me as odd.  But darned if he doesn’t come home in a really bad mood every time.


 
Shan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

Thanks, Tracy. But I personally don't feel like hitting in any form is Ok.

Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: tntinsol@... [mailto:tntinsol@...]
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 11:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Help! I slapped my child. :o(

Hi Shan, this may not be the most popular response but, I have to tell you
that you need to allow yourself a bit of levity here. In the wild animals
regularly show, not tell, their young that certain specific behaviors are
absolutely
not to be tolerated. This type of corporal punishment, in the animal world,
is typically very judiciously applied and so, when it does occur there is a
real and abrupt awakening in the young which enables them to immediately cue
in
on the importance of the message being delivered by the parent.

Of course I don't have information about 'how' you slapped your child. This
has bearing to the situation because loss of control is a warning to you and
to
your child that the situation leading up to the physical altercation is not
working. Read that again, the situation leading up to the physical
altercation..... not the moment itself. I have seen children raised
successfully with and
without corporal punishment and I have seen the opposite. It boils down to
that some people require a more direct and obvious form of attention getting
from
the parent on occasion and others are fine without a physical reminder of
appropriate behavior.

Proponents of absolutely NO corporal punishment are the same as any other
fringe group-if the condition works for them great. But, if it isn't working
for
you then you need to adjust and be okay with your adjustments regardless of
how the fringe wishes to justify their own training methods and how people,
as a
species wants to justify their actions at another's expense.

If you feel that you did lose control and the action on your part was overly
severe then an apology to your child is in order. With a caveat. He must
know
that his actions have consequences and even parents have limitations.

Hugs,

Tracey


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: Dawn Adams

> I used to believe in spanking and still fight the impulse to just hit my
kids. It's hard, It's hard, it's hard.>
[Shan replies:] I don't believe in spanking, but was spanked as a child.
So I know it is in there and I fight the urge when he gets like this.

>Suggest (actually, don't suggest, tell. Esp. if his behaviour will make you
violent) at those times that he go to his room for quiet time. Let him take
whatever toys or books he wants and you can both 'chill out'. But...don't
forget that what really needs work right now is the impulse to hit because
even if you help him through this bad bit of behaviour there will be
something else, there always is.>
[Shan replies:] I think I said in another response, that Connor takes this
sort of thing as a personal insult and absolutely gets irate and throws a
huge fit if I try to do anything of this sort. I think I need other ways of
dealing with him.


Shan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

-----Original Message-----
From: Aimee
>First thing: apologize.>
[Shan replies:] Done.


>Have you told him before that his way of treating you
was bothering you, or did you let it go on til you got
frustrated?>

Oh, I've told him many times before that it bothers me. Actually, dh and I
both have iterated it many times.

>My son had a phase where he talked to me very
disrepectfully and smart alecky, and I did a few
different things. One, when I was in a good mood, I
would respond back in kind, jokingly, not mean
sarcastic, but mirroring back how ridiculous and
obnoxious he was sounding. We would end up laughing
and joking around. >

I've done this and it ends up in a big fight because he doesn't like it when
people talk to him like that. But it does absolutely NO good for him in the
sense that he changes the way he acts in the future.


>If I was stressed or hungry or tired, and he pulled
that, I would tell him straight out, and he could tell
I was mad, but in control, that I didn't appreciate
him speaking to me that way and that he should go do
something else. I put a stop to it so that I wouldn't
lose my temper, but at that point I think he also knew
that my anger was justified.>

I've done this too and again to no avail.

>I also tried this, depeneding on the situation, like
if he seemed ready to listen for a minute. I would
tell him that it hurt my feelings to be spoken to that
way, and that I was getting angry. I would explain to
him that anger is a response to having my feelings
hurt, and that when I was angry, it was because I
thought he was being hurtful and mean. Most of the
time what worked was asking him if I ever talked to
him that way, and then I would walk away to let him
think about that.>

Maybe I could try this. usually though when I try to bring up a situation
that he is uncomfortable with, he just says he doesn't want to talk about
it.

Shan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

Thanks Pam,
This is exactly what I am after. In fact, I've subbed to your no spanking
list to see if I can get more helpful ideas there. I haven't introduced
myself yet. Hopefully I'll find the time to do that today.

Shan



I think Shan is hoping to find support for behaving a bit better than a
wild animal.
An appropriate comparison, though, in my opinion, because that urge to
strike out is a "reversion" and a less-than-civilized response.

The question is twofold: (1) how to resist the urge to strike our child
when it DOES arise and (2) how to avoid situations where the urge is
likely to arise.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.




Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<I know I don't have any right to slap him. I feel like such a loser right
now. I can't believe it has come to this. ds' personality is such that he
whenever I've put my foot down and left the game or room or whatever the
case was, he just feels SO rejected and falls completely apart in a huge
raging screaming fit until I or dh come back to the room. So this method
certainly doesn't work with him. I guess I'm going to have to find a better
way of talking to him.>>



Shan, if you were really a loser, you wouldn't be trying to change for the
better, and instead would be trying to justify hitting to yourself and
others. You aren't a loser, although you do feel lousy.



On those occasions when Jayn (4) has a crying rage fit - many would call it
a tantrum - because I just can't stay awake anymore or have to leave the
room because I feel angry, we just try to ride it out. I usually acknowledge
her anger along the lines of "I see that you are upset that I am going to
bed. You want me to stay out here with you." Then I explain my position,
"I'm too sleepy to stay awake, so I'm going to the bedroom". Then I give her
some suggestions of choices, "You can stay out here and watch Max and Ruby,
but I won't be coming out to put it on again because I will be sleeping. You
can watch cartoons by yourself out here, or you can come in to the bedroom
with us and watch cartoons or a dvd." Then I go. My experience is that she
follows quickly. In this example my goal is just to get to bed myself, so it
may be a bit far from your situation.



My point is that I continue with the process regardless of Jayn's crying.
Sometimes she tries to talk through her tears, and I say to her, "I can't
understand what you are saying. Will you say it again?" She often tries to
calm herself enough to speak clearly enough to be comprehended. (Naturally I
only tell her the truth about whether I can understand her or not - it is
not a manipulation) We save broader discussions about behavior, like "saying
mean things" for times when we are all calm.

Robyn L. Coburn










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

I don't think he wants to hurt your feelings or make you mad. I think
he's little and he really doesn't understand the effect his style of
communication is having on you.

If you stop thinking of the way he's talking as a deliberate meanness,
then it must be something else. If it's something else, you don't need
to be offended or injured by it.

Try to be really specific and ask if a thing he's said was intended to
hurt your feelings. "Are you angry, were you trying to hurt my feelings
when you said "specific thing?". Then, if he says no, he wasn't angry
or trying to hurt you, you can tell him that it did kind of hurt and next
time maybe he could say it this way instead "insert nicer phrase here".

I wouldn't be general "I'm tired of you talking to me that way" because
I'll bet her really doesn't know *how* he's talking to you. He probably
needs really specific, calm, input from you and a warm hug.

Could he be hurting about something? New baby? Has he recently lost
something he really loved? Could his friends going back to school be it?
Dog died? Did you move to new house? Did his favorite toy get broken?
Is he missing you for some reason?

Any of that stuff can be a big loss to a little kid who may not know how
or be able to talk about it or what to do to feel better.

Can he sleep with you at night? Maybe hug him more, spend more time with
him, try to do things that will create closeness between you.

I'm sorry you both had such a bad time.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 5:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
davenshan@... writes:
>>I also tried this, depeneding on the situation, like
if he seemed ready to listen for a minute. I would
tell him that it hurt my feelings to be spoken to that
way, and that I was getting angry. I would explain to
him that anger is a response to having my feelings
hurt, and that when I was angry, it was because I
thought he was being hurtful and mean. Most of the
time what worked was asking him if I ever talked to
him that way, and then I would walk away to let him
think about that.>

Maybe I could try this. usually though when I try to bring up a situation
that he is uncomfortable with, he just says he doesn't want to talk about
it.

Shan<<
***************************************
Shan - I have a foster son who was totally out of control in the same way you
describe. Very hurtful, rude, disrespectful talk. When he would calm down a
little, enough to listen, I would say, VERY FIRMLY, "You hurt me when you
talk to me like that. I don't talk this way to you because I know how it would
feel. I don't deserve to be spoken to this way, so if you choose to continue,
I will not listen to you. When you decide to talk nicely, I'll listen."

Then I would "quit" listening and responding to his barrage of insults and
profanity. As soon as the tone changed, I'd respond.

Didn't work overnight, but I'd say after about a week or so the number of
times it happened slowed, and then stopped. None of the kids speak to me that
way now.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

Thanks Deb. This really makes a lot of sense. I'll try it next time. :o)

Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Lewis
I don't think he wants to hurt your feelings or make you mad. I think
he's little and he really doesn't understand the effect his style of
communication is having on you.

If you stop thinking of the way he's talking as a deliberate meanness,
then it must be something else. If it's something else, you don't need
to be offended or injured by it.

Try to be really specific and ask if a thing he's said was intended to
hurt your feelings. "Are you angry, were you trying to hurt my feelings
when you said "specific thing?". Then, if he says no, he wasn't angry
or trying to hurt you, you can tell him that it did kind of hurt and next
time maybe he could say it this way instead "insert nicer phrase here".

I wouldn't be general "I'm tired of you talking to me that way" because
I'll bet her really doesn't know *how* he's talking to you. He probably
needs really specific, calm, input from you and a warm hug.

Could he be hurting about something? New baby? Has he recently lost
something he really loved? Could his friends going back to school be it?
Dog died? Did you move to new house? Did his favorite toy get broken?
Is he missing you for some reason?

Any of that stuff can be a big loss to a little kid who may not know how
or be able to talk about it or what to do to feel better.

Can he sleep with you at night? Maybe hug him more, spend more time with
him, try to do things that will create closeness between you.

I'm sorry you both had such a bad time.

Deb L



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Aimee

>I also tried this, depeneding on the situation, like
if he seemed ready to listen for a minute. I would
tell him that it hurt my feelings to be spoken to that
way, and that I was getting angry. I would explain to
him that anger is a response to having my feelings
hurt, and that when I was angry, it was because I
thought he was being hurtful and mean. Most of the
time what worked was asking him if I ever talked to
him that way, and then I would walk away to let him
think about that.>

Maybe I could try this. usually though when I try to
bring up a
situation
that he is uncomfortable with, he just says he doesn't
want to talk
about
it.

Shan>>

Well, that's why you walk away. My son always feels
very guilty, afterwards, and then doesn't want to
talk, either.
Not shame, guilt. And I dont' interfere with that
feeling, because it's a natural reaction.

it's tough for them to really *feel* what they've
done, just like you feel bad for slapping him. But
maybe he's gotta sit with that feeling for a while,
because he created the situation.

The tantrums that you mentioned when you walk out of
the room, I would leave him to it. When he calms
down, if he does without your interference,that may
help him process his feelings.

Man, this is so hard without knowing him, but I tried.
;-)

~Aimee

Stepheny Cappel

With Frankie 9 years old alot of times he is yelling because he is hungry thirsty or needs to sit with me for some special time. One of these things usually works or I am able to let him walk away and he will come back in a better mood.

Caitlin is 10 and she can make me hollerin mad and I get the urge to strike out. Like the other night she was piling too much food on her plate (I should have let her) and I was afraid I didn't have enough for everyone, she slammed the food back in the pot. I nudged her shoulder harder than I should have probably and told her to stop. That old stuff. Anyway I try to tell them now, like today in the car they were fighting and I said outloud that these were the times that made me feel angry myself.... and they quieted down. It is hard to get rid of old things... practice practice. and loving and apologizing. Stepheny


In a message dated 11/21/2003 5:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
davenshan@... writes:
>>I also tried this, depeneding on the situation, like
if he seemed ready to listen for a minute. I would
tell him that it hurt my feelings to be spoken to that
way, and that I was getting angry. I would explain to
him that anger is a response to having my feelings
hurt, and that when I was angry, it was because I
thought he was being hurtful and mean. Most of the
time what worked was asking him if I ever talked to
him that way, and then I would walk away to let him
think about that.>

Maybe I could try this. usually though when I try to bring up a situation
that he is uncomfortable with, he just says he doesn't want to talk about
it.

Shan<<
***************************************
Shan - I have a foster son who was totally out of control in the same way you
describe. Very hurtful, rude, disrespectful talk. When he would calm down a
little, enough to listen, I would say, VERY FIRMLY, "You hurt me when you
talk to me like that. I don't talk this way to you because I know how it would
feel. I don't deserve to be spoken to this way, so if you choose to continue,
I will not listen to you. When you decide to talk nicely, I'll listen."

Then I would "quit" listening and responding to his barrage of insults and
profanity. As soon as the tone changed, I'd respond.

Didn't work overnight, but I'd say after about a week or so the number of
times it happened slowed, and then stopped. None of the kids speak to me that
way now.

Nancy B. in WV


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sara

Hi Shan, my son is almost 13 and still has problems with tone of
voice. Most family and friends felt he was mean at times and ugly
sounding during those early years. I've always wanted him to have
emotional freedom so I've tried really hard not to ding him for
coming across as disrespectful when I knew he was just frustrated and
angry. Many times he is (still) moody because of his allergies. I've
taken alot of crap for treating him as equally as I treat other
adults! :) It's amazing how intolerent our society is towards
children and their emotions.

Your 6yo may not realize how important language and tone of voice is.
Few do! It took my son until he was about 8 to understand it. I just
kept asking him if he wanted us to talk to him the way he did us.
That didn't help much so finally I recorded him once and played it
back to him. He was stunned and tried to say "that wasn't me". It
helped and to this day when I still have ask him to change his tone
he'll say "I don't mean to sound that awful".

We've had many discussions about how people will be turned-off by
this habit(?) of his. But,...I think it IS part of his personality
and I hurt for him when it crops up. As he has gotten older...when he
starts, I immediately ask him if I have done something to anger him.
When he says no, I ask him not to continue with the tone. That ticks
him off but after hethinks about it, he'll apologize on his own. We
still discuss anger displacement and how that affects him and his
family and friends. Actually this is one of the reasons I homeschool.

My mother told me a few years ago when I was lamenting this behavior
for the umpteenth time, "it's not anything you have done sweetie, he
was born that way, quit beating yourself up for it!"

So...you aren't a bad parent Shan or you sure wouldn't be talking
about it here! Do you think it's just a part of his personality? Hang
in there...Sara

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 3:17:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
tntinsol@... writes:
-=-Finally, though you assert that Shan is hoping for a certain type of
support,
only she can sufficiently judge, and therefore learn, what is most effective
for her and her family by reviewing all opinions and suggestions allowing her
to come to her own internally enlightened choice.-=-


As one of the list owners, Pam's certainly entitled to help guide the list
toward the tone she thinks will best help people get to unschooling.

Even if she were not "personnel," she'd have the right to express her
opinion, just as everyone does.

People do have instincts, and part of culture is deciding which instincts to
go with and which to withstand. Different cultures honor or revile different
instincts. The culture we're in now has gone through a long ugly period of
discouraging ANYTHING biological, including breastfeeding. Sleeping with one's
own children has been treated practically as child abuse, which is crazy.

It's not that people here are divorced from their animal nature. There are
some things that create a warmer relationship, and some that don't.

It's "normal" for offspring to leave or at lest stop caring so much what
their parents want them to do once they're old enough to reproduce. This culture
does NOT allow a thirteen or fourteen year old to just walk away. So
cultural tools for extending a working relationship between parents and children are
Very Good Things.

-=-Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Beyond this,
however, many accept that there is no circumstance for utilizing physical
restraints or other training aides that involve the use of the body. I
believe
that if one allows this type of one sided belief system to rule their opining
then they are at serious risk themselves for not utilizing all and every
considerable tool in their repetoir at appropriate times.-=-

Big words aren't always best. "Repertoire" is the word you were looking for,
and though hitting is a "considerable tool" in the face of assault or threat
to our children's safety, if a parent can't control her own childish urge to
hit just because her feelings are hurt, that teaches the child that it's okay
to hit when his feelings are hurt. That is not a good lesson to teach on a
planet where one species is smart enough to know that there are six billion+ of
their kind.

Instead of trying to dazzle people with baffling terms, tell stories of your
own personal experiences with unschooling and with your own children.


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma2kids

>>Beyond this, however, many accept that there is no circumstance for
utilizing physical restraints or other training aides that involve
the use of the body. >>

What goes around, comes around...Do unto others...the Karma wheel..

My life priciple is that if I don't want it done to me, I try not to
do it to others. (I'm not perfect and have of course made mistakes.
But I try REAL hard.) Since I would be devastated if my husband,
friend or a police officer decided to smack me because they didn't
like my behavior, I will NOT turn around and smack someone else.
(That's of course in addition to all the other internal reasons I
have for not physically hurting another being.)

If I need to restrain my child, I try to do it with love because it
means she is out of control and needs me to be the adult.

And I don't think of my kids as animals that need "training aides." I
don't train them. I live with them, help them, guide them, love them.

>>I believe that if one allows this type of one sided belief system
to rule their opining then they are at serious risk themselves for
not utilizing all and every considerable tool in their repetoir at
appropriate times.>>

People used to think that the best tool to use with a child was a
paddle, belt or switch. That doesn't make it right.

There has NEVER been a difficult situation with my child where I have
looked back and thought "Gee, if only I'd thought to smack her. That
would have been a better response." NEVER.

>>The duplicity encourages a guilt response in the parent that is not
in service with the ultimate needs of the parent child relationship.>>

The guilt is a self-inflicted emotion to a less than acceptable
action towards another human being. But I don't believe in hanging on
to guilt. It's useless. Much better to do as Shannon has done :-)
and move forward towards a better next response.

Life is good.
~Mary

pam sorooshian

Shan --

I have two books I'd recommend for you. First is "I Can Problem Solve:
An Intergenerational Cognitive Problem-Solving Program" by Myrna Shure.
She has several books and at least one workbook - look for the one that
is aimed at kids your son's age. The reason I recommend this is that it
is FAR more effective to help him learn to express himself in
productive ways than it is to try to stop him from expressing himself
in problematic ways. Just like it is much more effective to tell kids
"Please walk" than "Don't run" - it puts what you want them to DO in
their head instead of just what you don't want, it is going to be a lot
more effective if you can focus on your son's effective communication,
rather than on the aspects you're not happy with. Myrna Shure's
approach is very effective - she helps parents help kids learn the
vocabulary of feelings - and how to expresss themselves in
solution-oriented ways. There are games and puppet play and stuff like
that to use - but even if you didn't DO all that, just reading her book
will give you tremendous insight into helping kids who are having
trouble communicating effectively.

The other book is "How to Talk So Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids
will Talk" -- I think you'll feel a lot more in control of yourself if
you have some predetermined responses like this book can offer. You, at
first, might even look FORWARD to him behave badly so that you can try
out some of your new ideas and see how they work. I've seen some pretty
amazing and almost immediate changes happen when people tried out
things from this book.

-pam

[email protected]

Thank you for encouraging us all to recall our own experiences and to express
them for the benefit of this community. As I stated I anticipated this to be
an unpopular opinion and I am not disappointed. I don't need to justify my
system to you and more than you need to justify your system to me. What works in
the training of one individual to become a functional and stable human being
may not in fact be the most functional for another. It may be that individuals
are adamantly opposed to using physical forms of correction, but, that doesn't
negate the truth that some individuals will respond best to that training
method.


I am certain that those persons who sub to this list are functionally capable
of addressing their own language skills and abundantly capable of addressing
their own parenting styles and sifting through what patterns they are
comfortable with expressing and acknowledging. I appreciate that Shan is
anti-physical. She will no doubt find little in what I have said helpful to her situation
at present. That in and of itself doesn't invalidate a method that is function
for me over a method that is apparently nonfunctional (by her own assertion)
to her. Now that I understand that of Her I won't suggest to her future methods
that I now know she personally will find disturbing. Perhaps someday this may
change. Perhaps not.

Yes, I agree with you that many of our brethren in humanity have lost contact
with their animal nature. I see also that we are at odds with the benefit of
this condition. I strongly believe that losing our animal nature is false and
often detrimental for society. When one holds themselves above their base
nature then how can they gain an understanding of that which drives their
reactions towards the training of their children.

Understanding is the key. I am not certain what point you are making with
your comments about thirteen and fourteen year olds walking away from their
parents. I am certain however, that the current politics involved with limited
acceptance of breast feeding and the use of a family bed being child abusive are
as equally misinterpreted as appropriate physical restraint can be when it is
applied judiciously and without rage or malice. Its abundantly clear that
because YOU consider this training tool inappropriate that you and those who
support your system will be particularly partisan with regard to this specific
aspect of 'biological' methodology.

Its unfortunately a hind site type of method. One can never be truly certain
of the impact or lack of impact until the future woulda-coulda-shoulda is
presented.

Also, though I appreciate your editing my grammar and spelling, please in the
future be as attentive of your own posts as you are to mine.


Warmly,
Tracey

>
> In a message dated 11/21/2003 3:17:58 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> tntinsol@... writes:
> -=-Finally, though you assert that Shan is hoping for a certain type of
> support,
> only she can sufficiently judge, and therefore learn, what is most effective
>
> for her and her family by reviewing all opinions and suggestions allowing
> her
> to come to her own internally enlightened choice.-=-
>
>
> As one of the list owners, Pam's certainly entitled to help guide the list
> toward the tone she thinks will best help people get to unschooling.
>
> Even if she were not "personnel," she'd have the right to express her
> opinion, just as everyone does.
>
> People do have instincts, and part of culture is deciding which instincts to
>
> go with and which to withstand. Different cultures honor or revile
> different
> instincts. The culture we're in now has gone through a long ugly period of
> discouraging ANYTHING biological, including breastfeeding. Sleeping with
> one's
> own children has been treated practically as child abuse, which is crazy.
>
> It's not that people here are divorced from their animal nature. There are
>
> some things that create a warmer relationship, and some that don't.
>
> It's "normal" for offspring to leave or at lest stop caring so much what
> their parents want them to do once they're old enough to reproduce. This
> culture
> does NOT allow a thirteen or fourteen year old to just walk away. So
> cultural tools for extending a working relationship between parents and
> children are
> Very Good Things.
>
> -=-Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Beyond this,
> however, many accept that there is no circumstance for utilizing physical
> restraints or other training aides that involve the use of the body. I
> believe
> that if one allows this type of one sided belief system to rule their
> opining
> then they are at serious risk themselves for not utilizing all and every
> considerable tool in their repetoir at appropriate times.-=-
>
> Big words aren't always best. "Repertoire" is the word you were looking
> for,
> and though hitting is a "considerable tool" in the face of assault or threat
>
> to our children's safety, if a parent can't control her own childish urge to
>
> hit just because her feelings are hurt, that teaches the child that it's
> okay
> to hit when his feelings are hurt. That is not a good lesson to teach on a
>
> planet where one species is smart enough to know that there are six billion+
> of
> their kind.
>
> Instead of trying to dazzle people with baffling terms, tell stories of your
>
> own personal experiences with unschooling and with your own children.
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

Sandra writes;
>It's not that people here are divorced from their animal nature. There are
>some things that create a warmer relationship, and some that don't.

Further to this, I didn't spank my daughter because of my human nature, I spanked her because my parents spanked me (though hardly ever, certainly not to the extant that I spanked Catherine) and I viewed this as acceptable. It was trained and accepted and completely human behaviour. What I attribute to my animal nature is the enveloping bond I felt while breastfeeding, the soothing pleasure of stroking my childrens skin, the unspoken cues from both that I can understand and respond to. Nevermind that there is no common animal nature but only human nature as there is such a huge varience in how different species act. There are no hard and fast animal rules.
Attributing human acts to animal nature seems to me to be a fatalistic view of things and a complete repudiation (hows that for a big word! :) ) of the free will that's supposed to be part of being human.
And....(rambling on I go) seeing spanking as part of the tools a parent uses seems a little strange to me as most times (as in my case) its used by parents who only have that one 'parenting' tool. As I learned and read about parenting and got more tools, I did not need to spank. Not to say that the urge ever disappeared. But, now that I've got more tools, there's no room for spanking.
Official end of rant.

Dawn (of the Great White (but wonderfully balmy today) North)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon

This is a very intense kid. The fits will continue for hours. :o/ He has
always been this way ever since I can remember. I know it is hard w/o
knowing the person to give advice. But thanks for trying. Every little bit
helps. :o)

Shan

-----Original Message-----
From: Aimee
Well, that's why you walk away. My son always feels
very guilty, afterwards, and then doesn't want to
talk, either.
Not shame, guilt. And I dont' interfere with that
feeling, because it's a natural reaction.

it's tough for them to really *feel* what they've
done, just like you feel bad for slapping him. But
maybe he's gotta sit with that feeling for a while,
because he created the situation.

The tantrums that you mentioned when you walk out of
the room, I would leave him to it. When he calms
down, if he does without your interference,that may
help him process his feelings.

Man, this is so hard without knowing him, but I tried.
;-)

~Aimee



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 6:18:06 PM Mountain Standard Time,
tntinsol@... writes:
-=-I don't need to justify my
system to you and more than you need to justify your system to me-=-

You need to if you're going to discuss it on this list.
Nobody is making you post, but if you post things you're not willing to
defend, you're just blowing smoke and noise.

-=-Thank you for encouraging us all to recall our own experiences and to
express
them for the benefit of this community.-=-

This isn't a community, it's a list with a specific purpose, which is best
served when unschoolers share their experiences with other unschoolers.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

You originally said:
"This type of corporal punishment, in the animal world,
is typically very judiciously applied and so, when it does occur
there is a
real and abrupt awakening in the young which enables them to
immediately cue in
on the importance of the message being delivered by the parent."

How does getting slapped or smacked help someone "cue in on the
importance of the message?" I was a physically punished child, and
I can assure you that not once when I was being hit/slapped/shoved
did I "cue in" to anything other hatred, fear, frustration, and a
desire to avoid my father whenever possible.
Yes, physical punishment appears to "work" temporarily, but at a
very high price (to the parent-child relationship and to the child's
ability to think clearly) in the long run.

>I am certain however, that the current politics involved with
limited
> acceptance of breast feeding and the use of a family bed being
child abusive are
> as equally misinterpreted as appropriate physical restraint can be
when it is
> applied judiciously and without rage or malice.

There is a very big difference, to me, between "physical restraint"
and corporal punishment. Doesn't corporal punishment essentially
mean to punish by inflicting pain or bodily harm? That's not
interchangeable with physical restraint.
I've physically restrained my toddlers from running in the road, or
from hurting people or damaging things during tantrums.
That's not corporal punishment. It's not even "training," it's
protecting. Corporal punishment is the opposite of protecting IMO.

Patti