Sandra Dodd

-=-I grew up with the idea that being allowed to "think for yourself"
is earned with age, as if adding another year to your life made you
automatically more wise. Not so. Wisdom is earned with experience and
practice. Better to get that experience now, while your parents are
right there to help you through it, than later when everyone expects
you to just be able to handle it on your own and you are brand new at
it.-=-

That's a quote from a blog entry by Kristen/littlerooh, writing about
her kids' online writings, about how they're not always "nice," but
how much they can learn from being online.

Holly is learning html in leaps and bounds. No one has told her
"that's programming." No one has said "This is the same as website
building." To her she is "just" working on her myspace page.

I could (as Kristen discussed) try to control and limit my kids. But
that would be making them smaller and their world smaller. So I
encourage them, even though sometimes they embarrass me. I give them
real information about what could be problematical about putting
things out there that might offend others. Then they make their own
decisions.

The blog entry is here:
http://learningbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/

Sandra

squeakybiscuit

Sandra said:

I could (as Kristen discussed) try to control and limit my kids. But
that would be making them smaller and their world smaller. So I
encourage them, even though sometimes they embarrass me. I give them
real information about what could be problematical about putting
things out there that might offend others. Then they make their own
decisions.

I've never said anything racist around my chidlren, and have never
allowed anyone else to. But lately, my 12 year old have been making
racist remarks. I've caught him posting it on messageboards too.

I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case, he's
expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have. I'vwe tried
tallking to him about it and trying to sway his opinion. I've ven
threatened to take away his internet priveleges if he continues to
post hate speech.

Was wondering whether or not you should allow your kids to their own
opinions if those opinions are dangerous.




--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I grew up with the idea that being allowed to "think for
yourself"
> is earned with age, as if adding another year to your life made
you
> automatically more wise. Not so. Wisdom is earned with experience
and
> practice. Better to get that experience now, while your parents
are
> right there to help you through it, than later when everyone
expects
> you to just be able to handle it on your own and you are brand new
at
> it.-=-
>
> That's a quote from a blog entry by Kristen/littlerooh, writing
about
> her kids' online writings, about how they're not always "nice,"
but
> how much they can learn from being online.
>
> Holly is learning html in leaps and bounds. No one has told her
> "that's programming." No one has said "This is the same as
website
> building." To her she is "just" working on her myspace page.
>
> I could (as Kristen discussed) try to control and limit my kids.
But
> that would be making them smaller and their world smaller. So I
> encourage them, even though sometimes they embarrass me. I give
them
> real information about what could be problematical about putting
> things out there that might offend others. Then they make their
own
> decisions.
>
> The blog entry is here:
> http://learningbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra Dodd

I wrote:

> I give them
> real information about what could be problematical about putting
> things out there that might offend others. Then they make their own
> decisions.

SqueakyBiscuit wrote:

-=-I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case, he's
expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have. I'vwe tried
tallking to him about it and trying to sway his opinion. I've ven
threatened to take away his internet priveleges if he continues to
post hate speech. -=-

Those are two extremes, trying to sway him and trying to remove his
"privileges."

Is this the same son wanting to find scientific evidence of Christian
claims about creationism?
Who's he hanging out with?

If one of my children was doing something potentially illegal I would
probably be willing to introduce a few pieces of evidence or
persuasion. If it's something that could get him in trouble, that
could affect our freedom to homeschool or to stay together as a
family. If the state or county were to investigate something that
could be turned toward delinquency or hate crimes, the parent might
be considered negligent. The child could be removed from the home.
That's extreme, but maybe worth mentioning.

Does he believe what he's writing, or is he posturing to impress
someone else?

Kirby has a friend who has made a couple of prejudiced comments. I
addressed the friend directly, and kind of belittled his opinion—
pointed out evidence to the contrary of which I knew he was aware,
and then just kept my gaze on him. It was basically a challenge and
a stare-down that I won. It was for the benefit of my children both
directly and indirectly. They could see that such comments could be
diffused/defused, and they saw the he wasn't willing or able to
defend them.

How long has your son been unschooled? How much time does he spend
with you and his dad?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:00 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:

> Was wondering whether or not you should allow your kids to their own
> opinions if those opinions are dangerous.


In the e-mail before, I was addressing it as actions.
The sentence above is missing a word (to WHAT to their own
opinions?), but you can't control another's opinions. You might
impress him one way or another by your own actions and stated
beliefs, but you can't 'allow' an opinion nor disallow one.

Sandra

squeakybiscuit

This is a different son than the one looking for the Creation
evidence. He hangs out with white suburban upper-middle class kids,
as that is all we have around here. He's not really unschooling
right now. We unschooled for several years, then went back to public
for a year (which is when these opinions began to form) and right
now are using a cyber charter. We were thinking of unschooling again.

He spends alot of time with me, but not so much with his dad right
now. I suspect this is not what he truly beleives, but rather, what
he thinks is "cool" .

I've explained the legalities of hate crimes, but he seems to think
that hate speech is allowed under the constitution.

Erin


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I wrote:
>
> > I give them
> > real information about what could be problematical about putting
> > things out there that might offend others. Then they make their
own
> > decisions.
>
> SqueakyBiscuit wrote:
>
> -=-I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case,
he's
> expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have. I'vwe tried
> tallking to him about it and trying to sway his opinion. I've ven
> threatened to take away his internet priveleges if he continues to
> post hate speech. -=-
>
> Those are two extremes, trying to sway him and trying to remove
his
> "privileges."
>
> Is this the same son wanting to find scientific evidence of
Christian
> claims about creationism?
> Who's he hanging out with?
>
> If one of my children was doing something potentially illegal I
would
> probably be willing to introduce a few pieces of evidence or
> persuasion. If it's something that could get him in trouble,
that
> could affect our freedom to homeschool or to stay together as a
> family. If the state or county were to investigate something
that
> could be turned toward delinquency or hate crimes, the parent
might
> be considered negligent. The child could be removed from the
home.
> That's extreme, but maybe worth mentioning.
>
> Does he believe what he's writing, or is he posturing to impress
> someone else?
>
> Kirby has a friend who has made a couple of prejudiced comments.
I
> addressed the friend directly, and kind of belittled his opinion—
> pointed out evidence to the contrary of which I knew he was
aware,
> and then just kept my gaze on him. It was basically a challenge
and
> a stare-down that I won. It was for the benefit of my children
both
> directly and indirectly. They could see that such comments could
be
> diffused/defused, and they saw the he wasn't willing or able to
> defend them.
>
> How long has your son been unschooled? How much time does he
spend
> with you and his dad?
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 20, 2006, at 4:57 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:

> This is a different son than the one looking for the Creation
> evidence. He hangs out with white suburban upper-middle class kids,
> as that is all we have around here. He's not really unschooling
> right now. We unschooled for several years, then went back to public
> for a year (which is when these opinions began to form) and right
> now are using a cyber charter.


So he's not just "not really unschooling," he's in school, even
though he's doing the work at home, right?

Please try not to blur the line by calling that "not really
unschooling," which does imply it's sort of unschooling.


He might be right about the freedom of speech. Maybe you and he
together could research what is legal and illegal about posting
things. There are special problems with the internet, because it's
interstate and international. It's not just U.S. law involved. You
wouldn't have to be sitting together at the same time to do that, but
it might be something that would bring the two of you closer
together. Instead of you saying it's bad and him saying "Huh uh,"
find out where the truth really lies about it, or at least where the
arguments lie, legally speaking. That might distract him enough to
satisfy you. Every day he's older, and could easily grow out of his
need to be doing something shocking, if that's what it is.

Maybe you could look up some history of the KKK or something fairly
easy to research, and share the interesting parts with him. Maybe
instead of resisting his interest you could relax toward it and find
some good bad examples to help him see other aspects. If you move
hard and fast toward a wall of shame, you might have all wall, and
resistence, and defensiveness, and no shame. Don't make it you
against him. Make it about logic and goodness and morality. Make it
about resumes and integrity and trust and becoming a good dad, maybe.

Sandra

averyschmidt

> I've never said anything racist around my chidlren, and have never
> allowed anyone else to. But lately, my 12 year old have been
making
> racist remarks. I've caught him posting it on messageboards too.

> I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case, he's
> expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have. I'vwe tried
> tallking to him about it and trying to sway his opinion. I've ven
> threatened to take away his internet priveleges if he continues to
> post hate speech.

I'm not experienced with racist remarks specifically (that would
bother me as well- yikes!) so I don't know how helpful this will
be...

There's something about the wording you chose above that suggests
that you and your son aren't quite on the same side. And by "on the
same side" I don't mean agreeing about everything, I mean mutual
respect, genuine interest in each other's thoughts, and openness to
input from each other.

The "I've caught him" thing- I wouldn't even think in those terms.
I'm thinking of a recent scenario here... my son shares his myspace
pages with me. I have them bookmarked and check them out now and
then. Sometimes I've noticed something that I don't think is a good
idea to put out there, and recently it was a comment about a local
boy he's had some trouble with IRL. We'd had conversations before
about posting deragatory things about others online, but I didn't
think "I've caught him" and I didn't go lecture him or threaten to
take away his "priveleges" (really *I* feel priveleged that he
shares his stuff with me as many of his friends' parents don't even
know about their pages). I waited until the right moment to bring
it up, told him I noticed what he'd written, and I gave him some
examples of what I thought were possible repercussions. He
genuinely listened, and it led to some conversation about social
dynamics in general (both online and IRL) and about this boy in
particular. The next time I visited his page I noticed that he'd
removed it even though he didn't "have" to.

It seems to me that the parents around me who focus too much on
control lose their power to influence. (Parent/Teen Breakthrough:
The Relationship Approach, which I highly recommend, talks a lot
about that distinction).

Patti

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case, he's
expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have. I'vwe tried
tallking to him about it and trying to sway his opinion. I've ven
threatened to take away his internet priveleges if he continues to
post hate speech. >>>>

Threats or any activities to prevent him expressing his opinions simply
because they are different from your own are liable to backfire into secrecy
and dishonesty. However having a discussion about why you disagree with the
opinions is a much better course. What I mean is stating your case, and
listening to his might be better than the proposing that unless he agrees
with you, here's a punishment.

Some genuine information about the possible consequences of posting hate
speech to the internet may be found at:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/speech/internet/topic.aspx?topic=interne
t_hate_speech

I just googled "hate speech versus first amendment", and got a ton of
webpages. This one is a bibliography with links:

http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/iclp/freespch.htm

If you are concerned that posting racist remarks will make the family a
target for investigations of any sort, it is worth expressing those worries
to him in a rational way from an informed position.

I remember being belittled by my mother at different times in my life
because of differing political or spiritual beliefs. What really rankled on
top of her nastiness, was her lack of information - truly uniformed not just
about my position but even about her own conservative stances. She was a
real knee-jerk reactor, using scorn to express her fear (which led to
loathing). She also believed that Russia was standing by ready to physically
invade the USA at any moment.

Robyn L. Coburn





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katherand2003

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@...> wrote:
>
> <<<<< I want my kids to form their own opinions--but in this case,
he's expressing an opinion that I don't want him to have.


:) My parents said that too. They didn't really think it through or
they wouldn't have said it. Conversely and at the same time, their
opinion was and still is that children (no matter how old they get)
should love and honor their parents to the degree that they don't balk
at the philosophies of the parents. Because they believe that, my
opinions leave them feeling despised and dishonored even though that's
never been my intention.

The scary thing isn't that kids might have differing opinions but that
parents' influence will be too weak or ignored (unless of course the
parents aren't a good influence then having a weak/ignored effect on
kid(s) is a good thing).

We want to be (a) a *good* influence and (b) influential.

Having different opinions is not only true and something we all need
to learn to deal with peaceably (relationships intact) but also
healthy. I want the next generation to be an improvement not a blind
so called "safe" replica of generations before. It's not possible to
relive the past even if it were safe or safer than the unknown future
of our children. Getting past the myth of a "safe" past would be helpful.

Making our relationships so that it's understood that people don't
realize when they're wrong (because then they might want to correct
themselves and not be wrong, at which point they would no longer be
wrong --hehe -Catch 22). Everybody is wrong about something sometime.
It's not shameful. Have it understood between us that those who can
be wrong include parents and other adults. Otherwise, children may
grow to believe that kids are automatically wrong and adults are
automatically right. That's a scary idea, whether believed as a kid
or as an adult.

The idea of adults being 100%-correct-and/or-wise leads to incredible
feelings of powerlessness and possibly the adoption of alien beliefs
propogated purposedly to fill the void of incompetence that the
disenfranchised experience, to use the powerless as cogs in some nasty
machinery. Our kids don't need to experience powerlessness.

They need to understand their own power. Helping children to use
power wisely takes time... and is worth every minute.

EVen (and maybe especially) for people who aren't unschooling.

Kathe

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 21, 2006, at 12:45 PM, katherand2003 wrote:

> Otherwise, children may
> grow to believe that kids are automatically wrong and adults are
> automatically right. That's a scary idea, whether believed as a kid
> or as an adult.


Or vice versa, which was both the impetus and the failing of a lot of
the hard & fast counter-culture of the late 1960's. It was assumed
by millions of teens and young adults all at once that if an older
member of "the establishment" made an assertion that it was false,
propagandistic, bullshit. A lot of communications were cut off, and
perhaps that was necessary for so much change to happen so fast. But
knowing that it happened on such a large scale can be a tool we can
use to help it NOT happen on the small scale of our own families.

Unfortunately some of their assertions WERE false propagandistic
bullshit, which only served to widen the VERY-real-at-the-time
generation gap. So it's DEEPLY important that a parent who wants a
good relationship with a child learn to be transparently honest and
open to saying "I don't know for sure, but let's find out."

Every inflexible statement a parent makes, every unqualified
statement, every statement that turns out not to be as true as it was
advertises erodes trust in the realest possible way.

Be trustworthy. It's the only path to trust. There's not another one.

Sandra

katherand2003

I agree and on my micropath to adulthood springing from totally not
trusting a word my parents uttered, I eventually learned somewhat at
least to balance reality with my fantasy of parents who were
automatically wrong because they bought into the party line, which
wasn't ALL bad-- hook line and sinker. My parents thought of
themselves as quite nonconformist and, in many ways, they were and
are. But by the same token, through often insidious cultural
influences they were and are a product of their times, the 50s, which
was in its own way quite a departure from the past.

Cultural changes really act as springboards for still more change down
the road. All based on collective and individual decisions. Western
cultures propelled by ever-increasing technology have been comprised
by such a mob that it can't seem to act moderately. The interesting
thing to me is the strong development of the individual voice in
modern times directly across from society. Where moderacy may have
occasion to show up. Conscience counts for something in the life of
the one person who lives it, and that something is what each
individual is made up of, at their unique heart of hearts. "What life
do I want to live?" is a good question, even if I'm not unschooling,
but paramount if I *am* unschooling.

Kathe




--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2006, at 12:45 PM, katherand2003 wrote:
>
> > Otherwise, children may
> > grow to believe that kids are automatically wrong and adults are
> > automatically right. That's a scary idea, whether believed as a kid
> > or as an adult.
>
>
> Or vice versa, which was both the impetus and the failing of a lot of
> the hard & fast counter-culture of the late 1960's. It was assumed
> by millions of teens and young adults all at once that if an older
> member of "the establishment" made an assertion that it was false,
> propagandistic, bullshit. A lot of communications were cut off, and
> perhaps that was necessary for so much change to happen so fast. But
> knowing that it happened on such a large scale can be a tool we can
> use to help it NOT happen on the small scale of our own families.
>
> Unfortunately some of their assertions WERE false propagandistic
> bullshit, which only served to widen the VERY-real-at-the-time
> generation gap. So it's DEEPLY important that a parent who wants a
> good relationship with a child learn to be transparently honest and
> open to saying "I don't know for sure, but let's find out."
>
> Every inflexible statement a parent makes, every unqualified
> statement, every statement that turns out not to be as true as it was
> advertises erodes trust in the realest possible way.
>
> Be trustworthy. It's the only path to trust. There's not another one.
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 21, 2006, at 5:37 PM, katherand2003 wrote:

-=-"What life
do I want to live?" is a good question, even if I'm not unschooling,
but paramount if I *am* unschooling.-=-

Amen.

-=-
> The interesting
> thing to me is the strong development of the individual voice in
> modern times directly across from society.
> -=-

I'm reading a fun book on the difference between American Culture and
British. American expectations and assumptions don't always match
the rest of the English speaking world.

I also think there's a reality in any collection of humans, that only
so many will be leaders and the majority will be followers. And one
isn't just "a leader" or "a follower." There's an instinct to
follow, and sometimes leading become inevitable. It can come down to
who's the most qualified and pressured to lead, in small emergency
situations. And in largescale times of peace, lots of potential
leaders can chill.

What I think that has to do with parents needing to be honest and
open and thoughtful is two parts: People can't just blindly follow
along with unschooling. It has to be internalized in each
responsible parent. One who doesn't get it can't convincingly or
effectively Do it. And within the family, no matter how egalitarian
the family is set up to be, the parents are the leaders, THEY decided
on an egalitarian arrangement, and need to manage that and sell it
and make it real. They can't do that if they don't really mean what
they say and practice what they preach.


All this is unschooling and mindful parenting is harder than it
looks. <g> Simple but not easy.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 20, 2006, at 6:40 PM, averyschmidt wrote:

> The "I've caught him" thing- I wouldn't even think in those terms.
> I'm thinking of a recent scenario here... my son shares his myspace
> pages with me. I have them bookmarked and check them out now and
> then. Sometimes I've noticed something that I don't think is a good
> idea to put out there, and recently it was a comment about a local
> boy he's had some trouble with IRL.


I think this might be one of those things that can be too far gone to
recover. If the relationship between a parent and child has years of
history of mistrust and control, do you think they can ever get back
to open trusting?

Sandra

Have a Nice Day!

I think it can recover. It just might take a long time, maybe past the time when kids live at home with us.

I refuse to believe that its ever too late for relationships to change, for those that really want it to.

Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Kids thinking, and learning



On Mar 20, 2006, at 6:40 PM, averyschmidt wrote:

> The "I've caught him" thing- I wouldn't even think in those terms.
> I'm thinking of a recent scenario here... my son shares his myspace
> pages with me. I have them bookmarked and check them out now and
> then. Sometimes I've noticed something that I don't think is a good
> idea to put out there, and recently it was a comment about a local
> boy he's had some trouble with IRL.


I think this might be one of those things that can be too far gone to
recover. If the relationship between a parent and child has years of
history of mistrust and control, do you think they can ever get back
to open trusting?

Sandra


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> I think this might be one of those things that can be too far gone
to
> recover. If the relationship between a parent and child has years
of
> history of mistrust and control, do you think they can ever get
back
> to open trusting?

I don't know, but it's certainly worth a try, isn't it? People can
only start where they are. I personally like to think that it's
never too late to improve our relationships if we can.

By the time I was a teen I had years of history with my parents of
mistrust and control, but I think that if my mother had somehow
found a different way, was *honestly* sorry about the past, and was
open with me about her sincere desire for change (including
consistently living up to her word) I'd certainly have softened and
begun to trust her and value our relationship more. Actually, this
has happened in my adult relationship with her. :-) Sooner than now
could only have been better, even if that sooner was at the tail end
of my growing up years.

But even if it is "too late" for any one family to recover, it's
still helpful for parents of younger children to read about the
different kinds of relationships that can exist between pre-
teens/teens and their parents. :-)

Patti

Have a Nice Day!

By the time I was a teen I had years of history with my parents of
mistrust and control, but I think that if my mother had somehow
found a different way, was *honestly* sorry about the past, and was
open with me about her sincere desire for change (including
consistently living up to her word) I'd certainly have softened and
begun to trust her and value our relationship more. Actually, this
has happened in my adult relationship with her. :-) Sooner than now
could only have been better, even if that sooner was at the tail end
of my growing up years.

But even if it is "too late" for any one family to recover, it's
still helpful for parents of younger children to read about the
different kinds of relationships that can exist between pre-
teens/teens and their parents. :-)

Patti

****************************

This has been my experience also. So, I have to believe that it can happen, but everyone has to want it.

Kristen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

katherand2003

In my case, as long as both my parents are alive, it would seem to
take a sincere effort on both their parts because they present such a
unified front to me even as their 40+ year old child. It's that "we"
thing that many have talked about on this and other discussion boards;
that while it's in operation between parent(s)/child, it forms a sort
of borg-ish monopoly on real relationship. For many, this may mean
basically squeezing the life out of the chance to even begin to
relate, let alone trust. I don't like to think such relationships are
a reality... that in the dance of control, *Trust* remains a
non-issue, or a precarious potentiality that doesn't yet exist and is
continually out of reach, or perhaps even a word for manipulating
others. There are families where sadly the word *Trust* is laughable.

Like you, Patti, I would be absolutely thrilled even if only one of my
parents were to reach out to me on an open sincere individual basis--
one-to-one. Even if it didn't lead to much depth and I end up sad
about the overall relationship, I would value the memory of such a
moment. Fleeting moments as these have been around a few times with
both my parents. As angry as I've been with them for much of my life,
I treasure those times. I feel we've missed each other somehow and
the people we seem to be to each other covers our true selves.

My reaction is to stretch myself diametrically across from the way I
was brought up... take the good, leave the bad and seek out the rest
of the good elsewhere to complete it. A lot of work. I want to
preserve some things I grew up with, such as alert protective
parenting, but without attempting to exert mastery and control over ds
just because he's a child. For me, the wholelife aspects of
unschooling philosophy(ies) answer the level of involvement I want
which I hope will lead to close yet trusting and trustworthy family
relationships as well as confidence for everyone in my family to live
a full life.

Kathe




--- In [email protected], "averyschmidt"
<patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:
>
> > I think this might be one of those things that can be too far gone
> to
> > recover. If the relationship between a parent and child has years
> of
> > history of mistrust and control, do you think they can ever get
> back
> > to open trusting?
>
> I don't know, but it's certainly worth a try, isn't it? People can
> only start where they are. I personally like to think that it's
> never too late to improve our relationships if we can.
>
> By the time I was a teen I had years of history with my parents of
> mistrust and control, but I think that if my mother had somehow
> found a different way, was *honestly* sorry about the past, and was
> open with me about her sincere desire for change (including
> consistently living up to her word) I'd certainly have softened and
> begun to trust her and value our relationship more. Actually, this
> has happened in my adult relationship with her. :-) Sooner than now
> could only have been better, even if that sooner was at the tail end
> of my growing up years.
>
> But even if it is "too late" for any one family to recover, it's
> still helpful for parents of younger children to read about the
> different kinds of relationships that can exist between pre-
> teens/teens and their parents. :-)
>
> Patti
>

katherand2003

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2006, at 5:37 PM, katherand2003 wrote:
>
>> -=-"What life do I want to live?" is a good question, even if I'm
>> not unschooling, but paramount if I *am* unschooling.-=-
>
> Amen.
>
> -=-
> > The interesting
> > thing to me is the strong development of the individual voice in
> > modern times directly across from society.
> > -=-
>
> I'm reading a fun book on the difference between American Culture and
> British.

What's the name of this book? Just curious. I might like to look it
up. What might be fun is finding time to read while ds is 2 1/2. I
should keep a list of things to read with commentaries on why I
originally thought to read them so the list will mean anything later.

> American expectations and assumptions don't always match
> the rest of the English speaking world.

Ain't that the truth. I've only travelled once out of the US. Mexico
in the early 90s. Americans look so weird there. I squirmed a lot
while on excursions. I wanted to get some Mexican dust on my clothes
and shoes, and on my soul too. We're too affluent and reliant on our
wealth for my comfort. I've never felt wealthy before or so ashamed
of it. I'm sure the relative importance of money isn't the only
difference.

> I also think there's a reality in any collection of humans, that only
> so many will be leaders and the majority will be followers. And one
> isn't just "a leader" or "a follower." There's an instinct to
> follow, and sometimes leading become inevitable. It can come down to
> who's the most qualified and pressured to lead, in small emergency
> situations. And in largescale times of peace, lots of potential
> leaders can chill.

Leadership can be a lot like teaching. Not everybody is qualified.
Also some things and people that should lead haven't the voice or
calling.

Yourself. The most important follower you'll ever have, the most
essential of leaders. It's not originally my thought that everybody
leads and everybody follows, even if they don't realize it.

What I'm getting at is we're led in varying and often conflicting ways
by other things and people, and choices arise even if we're barely
conscious of them. Leaders come in so many stripes: I come after a
ton of ancestors, back to how long? I am younger than a whole bunch
of people. I come after them as well as people younger than me who
have done things I haven't done, which one day I will do or attempt to
do. *Things* influence me too, such as instinct, heredity, culture
and so on.

Decisions decisions. I have no way of knowing for sure if I follow
simply because something or someone's idea seems the most pressing at
the time, although I might think I have my reasons in a row like so
many ducks. I mean, how many decisions does a person make everyday?
Thousands at least, I would think. All important to some degree or
you wouldn't do anything to decide them.

Leadership, especially leading your own life, means deciding what is
most crucial and to what purpose. Yeah... and it's what makes
unschooling so mindbendingly difficult to incorporate into life. To
distance yourself from seemingly harmless influences that block it
while you maintain a balance and hold onto reality. I think it's
necessary to become aware and to remind yourself of influences that
have tainted you. Yet a sort of burgeoning *instinct* needs to
develop in order to make radical/wholelife unschooling doable in the
long run, so that life together is doable and fun. Of course at first
you bend your mind, wrap your head around so many aspects, in order to
*not* take them for granted. Eventually I hope to get where I don't
carefully consciously decide what fits me and my spouse and
child(ren)'s needs, so much as breathe naturally and consider it
together from a tranquil place. At least more often than I do now.
Not complaining so much as hoping.

> What I think that has to do with parents needing to be honest and
> open and thoughtful is two parts: People can't just blindly follow
> along with unschooling. It has to be internalized in each
> responsible parent. One who doesn't get it can't convincingly or
> effectively Do it. And within the family, no matter how egalitarian
> the family is set up to be, the parents are the leaders, THEY decided
> on an egalitarian arrangement, and need to manage that and sell it
> and make it real. They can't do that if they don't really mean what
> they say and practice what they preach.
>
>
> All this is unschooling and mindful parenting is harder than it
> looks. <g> Simple but not easy.

This is where my "AMEN" comes in. Unschooling is *definitely* not a
lazy thing-to-follow/life-to-lead. Radically or educationally...
both = tall orders.

Kathe

Tina Ulrich

> I'm reading a fun book on the difference between American Culture and
> British. American expectations and assumptions don't always match
> the rest of the English speaking world.

What's title and author of this book? I've been reading Elizabeth
George mysteries lately and have fun figuring out the British words.

Tina

Betsy Hill

**Yeah... and it's what makes
unschooling so mindbendingly difficult to incorporate into life. To
distance yourself from seemingly harmless influences that block it
while you maintain a balance and hold onto reality. I think it's
necessary to become aware and to remind yourself of influences that
have tainted you. Yet a sort of burgeoning *instinct* needs to
develop in order to make radical/wholelife unschooling doable in the
long run, so that life together is doable and fun.**

I wonder if having gone thru a previous radical or revolutionary
reassessment of our culture makes moving to unschooling any easier or
less distressing? (Not that I was distressed, I'm kind of projecting on
to other people.) Would being the first feminist or first entrepreneur
or first vegetarian in one's family be good practice for being the first
unschooler?

Or would previous practice veering from the "norm" not encourage
independent thought, merely the substitution of one ideology for the
other? Following a *new* doctrine instead of the old one probably isn't
as difficult as making each deciding step based on independent thought.

(Wish I was being clearer. You are welcome to add to my thoughts, esp.
since they seem so vague.) (That's the way they come to me!)

Betsy

katherand2003

I think I know what you mean by being and having firsts in the family.
The reason probably varies considerably from person to person as well
as moment to moment for each person. I really don't know. I've been
told I have a certain reputation but I don't agree that I do things
only for novelty. Maybe because that's saying I don't think but act
randomly, or I'm contrary for the sake of showing off or something.
Not that I'm above showing off.

Blah blah blah... me me me. :) See?

A frequent joke is if I can do something backwards, I will. Sure. I
like different methods for novelty's sake as well as curiosity --all
the "why not," "how come" and "let's see" which lots of people don't
engage in or care about. It's not random behavior in *my* eyes and
also not my sole characteristic.

Why unschooling distresses me -- mostly not wanting to change or even
see what needs changing. There's this old yarn: It's not
unschooling... it's me... it's us. Trading the purely feminist for
humanity. Dh not really adjusting to married life after divorce.
Changing power structure, ignoring bad advice, finding ways to talk
without feeling unheard.

>>>>Following a *new* doctrine instead of the old one probably isn't
as difficult as making each deciding step based on independent
thought.<<<<

It could be said too: "Making each decision based on independent
thought probably isn't as difficult as following a "new" doctrine
instead of the old one." (My brain flipped it and then I went back to
re-read because I knew I got it wrong.) Looking at unschooling as
wholesale change is harder, scarier, than taking a step at a time--
doing being easier than thinking.

By thinking, I'm asking if we're able to do unschooling. Sometimes, I
think we are and sometimes I think we aren't. It's just life really.
It helps to have the name of a somewhat varyingly defined philosophy
to start with and some ideas to hang your hat on so that you're not
just struggling with nameless things floating around in your head and
heart.

Kathe


--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:
>
> **Yeah... and it's what makes
> unschooling so mindbendingly difficult to incorporate into life. To
> distance yourself from seemingly harmless influences that block it
> while you maintain a balance and hold onto reality. I think it's
> necessary to become aware and to remind yourself of influences that
> have tainted you. Yet a sort of burgeoning *instinct* needs to
> develop in order to make radical/wholelife unschooling doable in the
> long run, so that life together is doable and fun.**
>
> I wonder if having gone thru a previous radical or revolutionary
> reassessment of our culture makes moving to unschooling any easier or
> less distressing? (Not that I was distressed, I'm kind of
projecting on
> to other people.) Would being the first feminist or first entrepreneur
> or first vegetarian in one's family be good practice for being the
first
> unschooler?
>
> Or would previous practice veering from the "norm" not encourage
> independent thought, merely the substitution of one ideology for the
> other? Following a *new* doctrine instead of the old one probably
isn't
> as difficult as making each deciding step based on independent thought.
>
> (Wish I was being clearer. You are welcome to add to my thoughts, esp.
> since they seem so vague.) (That's the way they come to me!)
>
> Betsy
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 1:19 PM, katherand2003 wrote:

> It's just life really.
> It helps to have the name of a somewhat varyingly defined philosophy
> to start with and some ideas to hang your hat on so that you're not
> just struggling with nameless things floating around in your head and
> heart.


Learning adds to what we already know, so we can't just learn
something that's so new to us we can't even recognize ir or
categorize it. We connect it to other things, ideas, words, people,
experiences. And we can add to it once we've captured it and started
to define it. Learning works with connections, and with naming
things and categorizing them, mentally. http://sandradodd.com/
connections

Sandra

Betsy Hill

** By thinking, I'm asking if we're able to do unschooling. Sometimes, I
think we are and sometimes I think we aren't.**

Hi, Kathe --

I don't remember from earlier in the thread whether you are divorced
and/or have an unsupportive (of unschooling) husband.

But I guess you are not asking ME to answer your question, rather are
posing it to yourself and searching your heart for an answer that fits
you and your situation.

Betsy

katherand2003

I'm asking questions of myself. Right. And of others but not of any
one person.

Dh and I are trying to break free of harmful ideas we grew up with,
and sometimes I wonder if we can do it. That stuff is so ingrained in
us. Unschooling encapsulates ideas that have sent us in some growing,
happier directions.

I'm learning more by posting my questions and thoughts than I have by
reading (and so much can be had just by reading). Saying the words
for what I'm doing in a circle of people who live unschooling. I need
that. I live in an area where people who are or have been unschooling
are nowhere to be found. I wouldn't be able to get it together
without some help. And having people to talk with online means so much.

Dh is not convinced but not adamantly opposed to unschooling as he was
last year. He *is* beginning to understand the point of a rich
environment which is great! even if he can't bring himself to support
unschooling. He definitely wants to homeschool ds who is now only 2
1/2, and he sees how ds learns things all the time, things we haven't
spent time trying to teach him. His work requires long mandatory
hours. Hopefully we can make it to the conference in Albuquerque.
Keeping my fingers crossed.

Kathe



--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:
>
> ** By thinking, I'm asking if we're able to do unschooling.
Sometimes, I
> think we are and sometimes I think we aren't.**
>
> Hi, Kathe --
>
> I don't remember from earlier in the thread whether you are divorced
> and/or have an unsupportive (of unschooling) husband.
>
> But I guess you are not asking ME to answer your question, rather are
> posing it to yourself and searching your heart for an answer that fits
> you and your situation.
>
> Betsy
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 22, 2006, at 10:51 PM, katherand2003 wrote:

> > I'm reading a fun book on the difference between American Culture
> and
> > British.
>
> What's the name of this book? Just curious. I might like to look it
> up


"Brit-Think/Amerithink, a Transatlantic Survival Guide," by Jane
Walmsley (publ. Harrap London, 1990).

I googled. The site I lifted that from was this:
http://www.avatar-moving.com/kb/doc_uk.html

It's a FAQ for Americans moving to the U.K. and has lots of good stuff.

That book (above) isn't about vocabulary. There are lots of places
online with vocabulary lists.
http://www.effingpot.com/effingpot.shtml
http://www.travelfurther.net/dictionaries/
http://www.bbcamerica.com/britain/dictionary.jsp
and many, many more




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