Two Little Issues
Andrea Roher
I have two problems I'm trying to solve for my son (19mo). They are
babyproofing and jealousy.
Babyproofing... we (dh, ds, and I) currently live with my parents who
are tolerant of the unschooling philosophy. Their attitude is more or
less, "It's your kid, but it's not the way we'd do it." (Which is
obvious when compared to the extremely "sheltered" upbringing I had.)
But we spend a good deal of time in our two rooms and most of it in
the one room we designated as office/living room (the other room is
our bedroom). We've got the bedroom mostly babyproofed so ds is able
to put himself to bed on a foam fold-out sofa we got for him. The
bedroom is basically babyproofed, meaning that there's not much he can
get to that we want to keep him away from (except for the headboard of
our bed, where we currently have some fragile valuables, and the
attached bathroom) but the office/living room is another matter
entirely.
Jealousy.. I work from home (in all about 36 to 40 hours a week).
This work is on my computer, which also happens to be my favorite way
to relax. I do my best to not "play" on my computer when ds is awake,
but even so ds is obviously, patently jealous of my computer and the
time I spend at it. My husband attends college classes in the
morning, so I try to get ds out to the gym to swim each day (which he
loves) so he'll take a good long nap and I can work without issues
until dh gets home from school. Ds normally wakes up about the time
dh gets home (around noon). That's when the problems start. Dh tends
to be a homebody, bordering on hermit. He doesn't like to leave our
area unless he has to. But when he's in our area while I'm working,
ds will often do things like pull my work papers off my desk, try to
turn my chair around to face the other way, etc. I haven't been able
to find enough time in the day to spend all of ds's waking time
focused on him, get enough sleep myself, and still get enough work
done to keep the family afloat financially.
This ties back into the babyproofing issue as well. I also have been
unable to find a way to keep my important work stuff out of ds's reach
so that he's not tempted. We have such a limited space that just
about everything we have that's not in storage is fairly easily
available to ds. We've done the best we can and actually managed to
use the space better than I had hoped (two computers, two regular
sized recliners, a child sized recliner for ds, a stack of two
mini-fridges, a TV, a filing cabinet, and a dresser for ds, plus
assorted storage locations in a 10x15 room).
Also, dh is only moderately tolerant of the unschooling philosophy.
His attitude is basically, "I'm okay with some of it, but my kids will
do chores and you're not allowed to help them with them." (Though I
expect/hope that will change before ds is old enough for us to
consider giving him any chores, he has eased up slightly since I first
broached the topic.) Therefore it's not as easy to get dh to help
keep ds out of everything (by redirection), because he tends to resort
to a loud, angry "no" and a smack on the bottom when ds gets into
things.
I guess I'm looking for any ideas I can use to make life better for ds
and move us a step closer to our goal of radical unschooling. Also,
if anyone knows of a good tips and strategies website for general
babyproofing that may just give me some new ideas.
-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com
babyproofing and jealousy.
Babyproofing... we (dh, ds, and I) currently live with my parents who
are tolerant of the unschooling philosophy. Their attitude is more or
less, "It's your kid, but it's not the way we'd do it." (Which is
obvious when compared to the extremely "sheltered" upbringing I had.)
But we spend a good deal of time in our two rooms and most of it in
the one room we designated as office/living room (the other room is
our bedroom). We've got the bedroom mostly babyproofed so ds is able
to put himself to bed on a foam fold-out sofa we got for him. The
bedroom is basically babyproofed, meaning that there's not much he can
get to that we want to keep him away from (except for the headboard of
our bed, where we currently have some fragile valuables, and the
attached bathroom) but the office/living room is another matter
entirely.
Jealousy.. I work from home (in all about 36 to 40 hours a week).
This work is on my computer, which also happens to be my favorite way
to relax. I do my best to not "play" on my computer when ds is awake,
but even so ds is obviously, patently jealous of my computer and the
time I spend at it. My husband attends college classes in the
morning, so I try to get ds out to the gym to swim each day (which he
loves) so he'll take a good long nap and I can work without issues
until dh gets home from school. Ds normally wakes up about the time
dh gets home (around noon). That's when the problems start. Dh tends
to be a homebody, bordering on hermit. He doesn't like to leave our
area unless he has to. But when he's in our area while I'm working,
ds will often do things like pull my work papers off my desk, try to
turn my chair around to face the other way, etc. I haven't been able
to find enough time in the day to spend all of ds's waking time
focused on him, get enough sleep myself, and still get enough work
done to keep the family afloat financially.
This ties back into the babyproofing issue as well. I also have been
unable to find a way to keep my important work stuff out of ds's reach
so that he's not tempted. We have such a limited space that just
about everything we have that's not in storage is fairly easily
available to ds. We've done the best we can and actually managed to
use the space better than I had hoped (two computers, two regular
sized recliners, a child sized recliner for ds, a stack of two
mini-fridges, a TV, a filing cabinet, and a dresser for ds, plus
assorted storage locations in a 10x15 room).
Also, dh is only moderately tolerant of the unschooling philosophy.
His attitude is basically, "I'm okay with some of it, but my kids will
do chores and you're not allowed to help them with them." (Though I
expect/hope that will change before ds is old enough for us to
consider giving him any chores, he has eased up slightly since I first
broached the topic.) Therefore it's not as easy to get dh to help
keep ds out of everything (by redirection), because he tends to resort
to a loud, angry "no" and a smack on the bottom when ds gets into
things.
I guess I'm looking for any ideas I can use to make life better for ds
and move us a step closer to our goal of radical unschooling. Also,
if anyone knows of a good tips and strategies website for general
babyproofing that may just give me some new ideas.
-----
Andrea L. Roher
-aka- Evenstar(@...)
Searching for my place in "Life, the Universe, and Everything" one day
at a time.
Maybe I've finally found it... in NH! (www.FreeStateProject.org)
Visit my blog at evenstar75.blogspot.com
Deb
How much of your work papers do you need access to at any one time?
That makes a difference somewhat - if you have to have lots of
papers accessible (cross references and suchlike), I'd suggest if at
all possible, hole punch and three ring binder. That way, they are
less inviting and if they get grabbed, they are together and less
likely to get lost or mutilated. If you only need a small pile at a
time, I might get some sort of file box (closeable type thing, even
a really big tupperware container or ziplock bag would do) and put
stuff that isn't immediately needed in there - if DS gets at it, the
stuff inside is still safe and orderly for the most part. Who cares
if having a stack of ziplock bags full of papers looks a bit odd, if
it works.
As to the jealousy here's one tidbit that seems to work with DS (I
work from home on occasion, DS is older but it might still work):
when I work from home, I take 10-15 minutes from each hour and that
is my 'break time' - I get up and stretch, stop at the bathroom if
need be, get a glass of water, and most importantly, I give DS a
chunk of that time to tell me what he's been doing, get him things
he's wanting and so on. By giving him Me in small bits throughout my
working time (and yes I know that adds length to the day to get the
same amount of work in) he is much more accepting of the time I am
working. You might also get an old keyboard by itself (I'm sure if
you don't have one, you can ask around and find one or get a cheap
one from a computer refurbishing place) and when you start to work,
put that out for DS so he is 'working' like mommy. Other 'when
mommy's working only' toys and things might help as well - a special
basket of papers and blocks and whatnots that he likes that comes
out when mom's working.
Maybe DH needs specific ideas of what you are looking for when you
want his help. Instead of "Please keep DS out of my papers"
something like "DS likes playing with these blocks. Can you help him
build some towers to knock down?" Find things that he is comfortable
doing (so he's not necessarily having to go out of his comfort
area). Or perhaps get a small TV/DVD player that he and DS can go
watch in the bedroom while you are working. They have wall mounting
gear so it can go up safely out of reach and not require a flat
surface to sit on.
--Deb
That makes a difference somewhat - if you have to have lots of
papers accessible (cross references and suchlike), I'd suggest if at
all possible, hole punch and three ring binder. That way, they are
less inviting and if they get grabbed, they are together and less
likely to get lost or mutilated. If you only need a small pile at a
time, I might get some sort of file box (closeable type thing, even
a really big tupperware container or ziplock bag would do) and put
stuff that isn't immediately needed in there - if DS gets at it, the
stuff inside is still safe and orderly for the most part. Who cares
if having a stack of ziplock bags full of papers looks a bit odd, if
it works.
As to the jealousy here's one tidbit that seems to work with DS (I
work from home on occasion, DS is older but it might still work):
when I work from home, I take 10-15 minutes from each hour and that
is my 'break time' - I get up and stretch, stop at the bathroom if
need be, get a glass of water, and most importantly, I give DS a
chunk of that time to tell me what he's been doing, get him things
he's wanting and so on. By giving him Me in small bits throughout my
working time (and yes I know that adds length to the day to get the
same amount of work in) he is much more accepting of the time I am
working. You might also get an old keyboard by itself (I'm sure if
you don't have one, you can ask around and find one or get a cheap
one from a computer refurbishing place) and when you start to work,
put that out for DS so he is 'working' like mommy. Other 'when
mommy's working only' toys and things might help as well - a special
basket of papers and blocks and whatnots that he likes that comes
out when mom's working.
Maybe DH needs specific ideas of what you are looking for when you
want his help. Instead of "Please keep DS out of my papers"
something like "DS likes playing with these blocks. Can you help him
build some towers to knock down?" Find things that he is comfortable
doing (so he's not necessarily having to go out of his comfort
area). Or perhaps get a small TV/DVD player that he and DS can go
watch in the bedroom while you are working. They have wall mounting
gear so it can go up safely out of reach and not require a flat
surface to sit on.
--Deb
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Andrea Roher wrote:
hiking backback (the aluminum frame things) and let him ride on your
back. Take him out of the house, let him nap there if you're strong
enough (or carefully remove it when he's asleep).
Put him in daycare if you can't spend time with him, or get a
babysitter.
You don't get to "be home with your child" and yet not be home with
him. It's not goingt o work. He's not "jealous" of the computer, he
wants his mom. He deserves and should have his mom.
-=- Ds normally wakes up about the time
dh gets home (around noon). That's when the problems start. Dh tends
to be a homebody, bordering on hermit. He doesn't like to leave our
area unless he has to. -=-
Ah.
Well he has to now.
If he wants you to work to make money, he "has to" take your son and
go and do something fun.
-=-I haven't been able
to find enough time in the day to spend all of ds's waking time
focused on him, get enough sleep myself, and still get enough work
done to keep the family afloat financially.-=-
Babysitter, daycare, trade off with another mom, get your husband to
take him to playgrounds, McDonald's, children's museum, another part
of the house...
-=-This ties back into the babyproofing issue as well. I also have been
unable to find a way to keep my important work stuff out of ds's reach
so that he's not tempted-=
He's not "tempted," he's learning the way kids work. There are lots
of reasons babies aren't in workspaces. Dangers. Maybe give him his
own little desk with sticky notes and pens and paper and put yours up
higher somehow, on shelves.
-=-His attitude is basically, "I'm okay with some of it, but my kids
will
do chores and you're not allowed to help them with them." -=-
Yet he won't even take his own child out to play without help?
"You're not allowed to help them"??
This will probably pass. <g>
-=-Therefore it's not as easy to get dh to help
keep ds out of everything (by redirection), because he tends to resort
to a loud, angry "no" and a smack on the bottom when ds gets into
things.
-=-
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
That's a different issue. It's not a "therefore."
Because your child isn't school age, you're not really homeschooling
so you're not really unschooling, and if that sounds stupid you can
find haven in the Always Unschooled list. <g> http://sandradodd.com/
lists/other
Deal with the spanking business separate from the idea of unschooling.
If you're working full time, and that's not working well for your
son, you're not even quite pulling off stay-at-home mom.
Priorities. Can you take more loans instead of needing to work
fulltime? Can you appeal to your parents for help? You're at their
house, but didn't mention them as a possibility for taking your son
out. Doesn't your husband have homework to do? He needs space too.
Sandra
> I have two problems I'm trying to solve for my son (19mo). They areHe needs more of your attention. Carry him more. Put him in a
> babyproofing and jealousy.
hiking backback (the aluminum frame things) and let him ride on your
back. Take him out of the house, let him nap there if you're strong
enough (or carefully remove it when he's asleep).
Put him in daycare if you can't spend time with him, or get a
babysitter.
You don't get to "be home with your child" and yet not be home with
him. It's not goingt o work. He's not "jealous" of the computer, he
wants his mom. He deserves and should have his mom.
-=- Ds normally wakes up about the time
dh gets home (around noon). That's when the problems start. Dh tends
to be a homebody, bordering on hermit. He doesn't like to leave our
area unless he has to. -=-
Ah.
Well he has to now.
If he wants you to work to make money, he "has to" take your son and
go and do something fun.
-=-I haven't been able
to find enough time in the day to spend all of ds's waking time
focused on him, get enough sleep myself, and still get enough work
done to keep the family afloat financially.-=-
Babysitter, daycare, trade off with another mom, get your husband to
take him to playgrounds, McDonald's, children's museum, another part
of the house...
-=-This ties back into the babyproofing issue as well. I also have been
unable to find a way to keep my important work stuff out of ds's reach
so that he's not tempted-=
He's not "tempted," he's learning the way kids work. There are lots
of reasons babies aren't in workspaces. Dangers. Maybe give him his
own little desk with sticky notes and pens and paper and put yours up
higher somehow, on shelves.
-=-His attitude is basically, "I'm okay with some of it, but my kids
will
do chores and you're not allowed to help them with them." -=-
Yet he won't even take his own child out to play without help?
"You're not allowed to help them"??
This will probably pass. <g>
-=-Therefore it's not as easy to get dh to help
keep ds out of everything (by redirection), because he tends to resort
to a loud, angry "no" and a smack on the bottom when ds gets into
things.
-=-
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
That's a different issue. It's not a "therefore."
Because your child isn't school age, you're not really homeschooling
so you're not really unschooling, and if that sounds stupid you can
find haven in the Always Unschooled list. <g> http://sandradodd.com/
lists/other
Deal with the spanking business separate from the idea of unschooling.
If you're working full time, and that's not working well for your
son, you're not even quite pulling off stay-at-home mom.
Priorities. Can you take more loans instead of needing to work
fulltime? Can you appeal to your parents for help? You're at their
house, but didn't mention them as a possibility for taking your son
out. Doesn't your husband have homework to do? He needs space too.
Sandra
S Drag-teine
Or in the case of my one year old daughter - she wants the computer. I have
a explore CD geared toward 6 - 36 month old children. When she just won't
let me work - we play together on the computer for about 5 - 10 minutes and
she goes on her merry way to play with her brother.
The others are right though if you are trying to work a job you need someone
else to care for him while you are working.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Two Little Issues
a explore CD geared toward 6 - 36 month old children. When she just won't
let me work - we play together on the computer for about 5 - 10 minutes and
she goes on her merry way to play with her brother.
The others are right though if you are trying to work a job you need someone
else to care for him while you are working.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Two Little Issues
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:12 AM, Andrea Roher wrote:
> I have two problems I'm trying to solve for my son (19mo). They are
> babyproofing and jealousy.
He needs more of your attention. Carry him more. Put him in a
hiking backback (the aluminum frame things) and let him ride on your
back. Take him out of the house, let him nap there if you're strong
enough (or carefully remove it when he's asleep).
Put him in daycare if you can't spend time with him, or get a
babysitter.
You don't get to "be home with your child" and yet not be home with
him. It's not goingt o work. He's not "jealous" of the computer, he
wants his mom. He deserves and should have his mom.
-=- Ds normally wakes up about the time
dh gets home (around noon). That's when the problems start. Dh tends
to be a homebody, bordering on hermit. He doesn't like to leave our
area unless he has to. -=-
Ah.
Well he has to now.
If he wants you to work to make money, he "has to" take your son and
go and do something fun.
-=-I haven't been able
to find enough time in the day to spend all of ds's waking time
focused on him, get enough sleep myself, and still get enough work
done to keep the family afloat financially.-=-
Babysitter, daycare, trade off with another mom, get your husband to
take him to playgrounds, McDonald's, children's museum, another part
of the house...
-=-This ties back into the babyproofing issue as well. I also have been
unable to find a way to keep my important work stuff out of ds's reach
so that he's not tempted-=
He's not "tempted," he's learning the way kids work. There are lots
of reasons babies aren't in workspaces. Dangers. Maybe give him his
own little desk with sticky notes and pens and paper and put yours up
higher somehow, on shelves.
-=-His attitude is basically, "I'm okay with some of it, but my kids
will
do chores and you're not allowed to help them with them." -=-
Yet he won't even take his own child out to play without help?
"You're not allowed to help them"??
This will probably pass. <g>
-=-Therefore it's not as easy to get dh to help
keep ds out of everything (by redirection), because he tends to resort
to a loud, angry "no" and a smack on the bottom when ds gets into
things.
-=-
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
That's a different issue. It's not a "therefore."
Because your child isn't school age, you're not really homeschooling
so you're not really unschooling, and if that sounds stupid you can
find haven in the Always Unschooled list. <g> http://sandradodd.com/
lists/other
Deal with the spanking business separate from the idea of unschooling.
If you're working full time, and that's not working well for your
son, you're not even quite pulling off stay-at-home mom.
Priorities. Can you take more loans instead of needing to work
fulltime? Can you appeal to your parents for help? You're at their
house, but didn't mention them as a possibility for taking your son
out. Doesn't your husband have homework to do? He needs space too.
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elliot Temple
Hi,
I'm new here and I come from the TCS list.
I am interested in unschooling perspectives on university/college. I
always just thought of them as "school", same as K-12. But I found a
lot of homeschooling types and some TCS people, who are generally
opposed to school, think university is different. The Teenage
Liberation Handbook about how to quit school and get a real life has
a section on getting into college without going to high school. (I
haven't read much of the book yet so I don't know if it actually
recommends aiming for university)
What do you think? Is college bad just like school, or is there
something that makes it different and better?
-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/
I'm new here and I come from the TCS list.
I am interested in unschooling perspectives on university/college. I
always just thought of them as "school", same as K-12. But I found a
lot of homeschooling types and some TCS people, who are generally
opposed to school, think university is different. The Teenage
Liberation Handbook about how to quit school and get a real life has
a section on getting into college without going to high school. (I
haven't read much of the book yet so I don't know if it actually
recommends aiming for university)
What do you think? Is college bad just like school, or is there
something that makes it different and better?
-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/
elizabeth roberts
Elliot..I recognized your name. I lurk on the TCS list. Howdy! To me, what makes college different (usually, but not always) is that a person chooses to be there, and chooses what they want to study and when. The only way that is similar to K12 are the situations where children are going right out of high school because it's expected of them, and it's not truly their choice.
Beth
Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth
Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
With a free 1 GB, there's more in store with Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christy Mahoney
I don't have much time, but the first thing that came to mind is
that even if kids go to elementary or high school with the freedom
to stop going when they want, they still are pretty much under the
control of the teachers/administration when they are at school.
They can't come and go as they wish. They have to eat lunch when it
is served, etc.
In college, there is much more personal freedom. Also, there are
more class choices, and a person could only take one class if that's
what he wanted.
Maybe more later.
-Christy
In [email protected], Elliot Temple <curi@c...>
wrote:
that even if kids go to elementary or high school with the freedom
to stop going when they want, they still are pretty much under the
control of the teachers/administration when they are at school.
They can't come and go as they wish. They have to eat lunch when it
is served, etc.
In college, there is much more personal freedom. Also, there are
more class choices, and a person could only take one class if that's
what he wanted.
Maybe more later.
-Christy
In [email protected], Elliot Temple <curi@c...>
wrote:
>university/college. I
> Hi,
>
> I'm new here and I come from the TCS list.
>
> I am interested in unschooling perspectives on
> always just thought of them as "school", same as K-12. But Ifound a
> lot of homeschooling types and some TCS people, who are generallyhas
> opposed to school, think university is different. The Teenage
> Liberation Handbook about how to quit school and get a real life
> a section on getting into college without going to high school.(I
> haven't read much of the book yet so I don't know if it actually
> recommends aiming for university)
>
> What do you think? Is college bad just like school, or is there
> something that makes it different and better?
>
> -- Elliot Temple
> http://www.curi.us/
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:
the next set of hoops you jump through before getting a job, it's not
much different.
For unschooled kids who are going because they want it, it's an
entirely different thing.
But even I as a schooled kid found college a lot different than high
school. You could pick what college suited you. You could pick --
with in bounds but it was way better than high school! --what courses
to take. The kids were not bound up in the conventions of "the way
you need to be." (But I went to a university with colleges of art,
drama and engineering so a broad spectrum of kids who could be out of
the box with others out of the box ;-)
And at some colleges there are no required courses and you can choose
what you want.
So I think it's not college that's the same or different so much as
what attitudinal glasses a kid is looking at college through.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Is college bad just like school, or is thereFor high school kids who go right after high school because that's
> something that makes it different and better?
the next set of hoops you jump through before getting a job, it's not
much different.
For unschooled kids who are going because they want it, it's an
entirely different thing.
But even I as a schooled kid found college a lot different than high
school. You could pick what college suited you. You could pick --
with in bounds but it was way better than high school! --what courses
to take. The kids were not bound up in the conventions of "the way
you need to be." (But I went to a university with colleges of art,
drama and engineering so a broad spectrum of kids who could be out of
the box with others out of the box ;-)
And at some colleges there are no required courses and you can choose
what you want.
So I think it's not college that's the same or different so much as
what attitudinal glasses a kid is looking at college through.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elliot Temple
But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,
*homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
*homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:04 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:
>
> > Is college bad just like school, or is there
> > something that makes it different and better?
>
> For high school kids who go right after high school because that's
> the next set of hoops you jump through before getting a job, it's not
> much different.
>
> For unschooled kids who are going because they want it, it's an
> entirely different thing.
>
> But even I as a schooled kid found college a lot different than high
> school. You could pick what college suited you. You could pick --
> with in bounds but it was way better than high school! --what courses
> to take. The kids were not bound up in the conventions of "the way
> you need to be." (But I went to a university with colleges of art,
> drama and engineering so a broad spectrum of kids who could be out of
> the box with others out of the box ;-)
>
> And at some colleges there are no required courses and you can choose
> what you want.
>
> So I think it's not college that's the same or different so much as
> what attitudinal glasses a kid is looking at college through.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://
> www.unschooling.info>
>
>
>
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-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/
Sandra Dodd
>=====================
> > Is college bad just like school, or is there
> > something that makes it different and better?
If a fifteen year old wants to take a semester off and pick up in the
fall, that is not a doable option.
If a parent TELLs a kid to go to school, no option, school is like a
prison, with no exit doors on the other side, just the trudge back
home every day. About the only options are running away or killing
oneself, or finding another family to live with (which happens
sometimes).
I did go to college with some kids whose parents treated it JUST that
way--same jail as high school, but maybe in a different state. The
parents micromanaged their lives, told them what classes they could
take, changed their privilege level based on report cards, etc.
The only thing that made college different and better for them is
that they went home to a dorm instead of their parents' house.
When parents make kid WANT to live somewhere else as quickly as
possible, that can make college attractive. But that's a hop out of
a frying pan hoping to run away from the fire.
When my son took a couple of college classes at 18, he was doing it
as a toe in the water, to see what it was like. There was no
pressure on him to go full time and start working on a degree he
would finish in four years. He will probably go back and take more
classes at some point, but it will be because he wants to for some
reason—to be with friends, or to work on a certificate in cooking
(that's what he seems the most interested in at the moment), or I
don't know what. We will help him if he needs help, but we won't
demand and threaten and punish.
That's about college and OUR family.
As to college its objective self compared to high school, the
flexibility and options and generally more mature treatment of the
students are all advantages. The freedom to leave is an advantage.
The cost is problematical for some. But it's different mostly in
that it isn't compulsory.
What people choose to do is worlds better than what someone else
"makes" them do.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 25, 2006, at 7:43 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:
out of context. I don't know if you're an unschooling parent, or a
teen, or someone who's just curious.
If you think college is as bad as high school, then for you it is.
There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so (said Hamlet
one day, and then every day thereafter for hundreds of years).
My experience with college wasn't like high school at all.
My son's small experience with college thusfar was fun and
interesting for him. Had it not been fun and interesting, he could
have just dropped out and done something else. He did drop out of an
English 101 class (the teacher of which seemed really oppressive and
nuts, in my opinion, and I used to teach composition myself).
It's wrong to generalize about all colleges, too. Some don't have
all those things you've listed, or have them in quite a different
form from state-sponsored school.
Sandra
> But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,Elliot, I don't know who you are, and it's hard to answer questions
> *homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
> they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
> mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
> College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
> even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
out of context. I don't know if you're an unschooling parent, or a
teen, or someone who's just curious.
If you think college is as bad as high school, then for you it is.
There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so (said Hamlet
one day, and then every day thereafter for hundreds of years).
My experience with college wasn't like high school at all.
My son's small experience with college thusfar was fun and
interesting for him. Had it not been fun and interesting, he could
have just dropped out and done something else. He did drop out of an
English 101 class (the teacher of which seemed really oppressive and
nuts, in my opinion, and I used to teach composition myself).
It's wrong to generalize about all colleges, too. Some don't have
all those things you've listed, or have them in quite a different
form from state-sponsored school.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 25, 2006, at 7:43 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:
I just noticed the "The rest is mostly just boring" line.
"The rest" of college for me was fantastic. I learned all KINDS of
things, free, for fun, outside of classes. Pottery, folkmusic (I
knew lots and learned tons more, and how to collect it myself in the
real world), playing recorder (which I learned informally well enough
to then be part of a formal ensemble and do serious Baroque music for
a while), lots about religion and cults (I tried never to miss a free
talk, sales pitch or intro session on any weird church), I met people
from all over the world and we exchanged stories and I took lots of
them to visit my hometown in northern New Mexico)...
If the rest of college was boring for you, I don't now what to say
except that it didn't have to be boring.
Sandra
> But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,====================
> *homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
> they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
> mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
I just noticed the "The rest is mostly just boring" line.
"The rest" of college for me was fantastic. I learned all KINDS of
things, free, for fun, outside of classes. Pottery, folkmusic (I
knew lots and learned tons more, and how to collect it myself in the
real world), playing recorder (which I learned informally well enough
to then be part of a formal ensemble and do serious Baroque music for
a while), lots about religion and cults (I tried never to miss a free
talk, sales pitch or intro session on any weird church), I met people
from all over the world and we exchanged stories and I took lots of
them to visit my hometown in northern New Mexico)...
If the rest of college was boring for you, I don't now what to say
except that it didn't have to be boring.
Sandra
Beth
But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,
*homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
But you're not stuck there. There is no truant officer to come and pick you
up and force you to go to class if you decide to stop going like there is in
regular school.
I squeaked by in high school. I was bored out of my mind and completely
uniterested in 90% of my required classes. I went to a private college prep
school and there was never any question of whether we *would* go to college.
The only question was *where* we were going to college and what our major
would be. My guidance counselor determined that the best course of study for
me would be teaching so that's what I entered college to do. I completed
three years, went out to student teach, and realized that I did not want
become a teacher. I left college for two years and worked, got married, had
a baby.
And then I went back. For myself. Studying the subject I had originally
wanted to study, but was discouraged from studying because my science and
math grades "weren't good enough". There were still classes I didn't enjoy,
but I chose to stay with those classes and complete them because I wanted to
be a dietitian and the trade off was worth it to me. If it hadn't been worth
it I'd have left and done something else or found another way to work in the
field.
It's the choice that makes college different than high school, IMO.
Beth
*homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
But you're not stuck there. There is no truant officer to come and pick you
up and force you to go to class if you decide to stop going like there is in
regular school.
I squeaked by in high school. I was bored out of my mind and completely
uniterested in 90% of my required classes. I went to a private college prep
school and there was never any question of whether we *would* go to college.
The only question was *where* we were going to college and what our major
would be. My guidance counselor determined that the best course of study for
me would be teaching so that's what I entered college to do. I completed
three years, went out to student teach, and realized that I did not want
become a teacher. I left college for two years and worked, got married, had
a baby.
And then I went back. For myself. Studying the subject I had originally
wanted to study, but was discouraged from studying because my science and
math grades "weren't good enough". There were still classes I didn't enjoy,
but I chose to stay with those classes and complete them because I wanted to
be a dietitian and the trade off was worth it to me. If it hadn't been worth
it I'd have left and done something else or found another way to work in the
field.
It's the choice that makes college different than high school, IMO.
Beth
Su Penn
On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:
degree from Goddard College, which have assign grades, homework,
textbooks, or set curricula. Students work with faculty advisors who
help them shape their plan for their degree and their semester,
within broad degree areas. For on-campus students (I did a low-
residency degree), faculty offer seminars in areas they're interested
in, or work out seminar topics with students. Attendance is voluntary.
Su
> But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,Not all colleges. That's one place where choice comes in. I have a
> *homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
> they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids.
degree from Goddard College, which have assign grades, homework,
textbooks, or set curricula. Students work with faculty advisors who
help them shape their plan for their degree and their semester,
within broad degree areas. For on-campus students (I did a low-
residency degree), faculty offer seminars in areas they're interested
in, or work out seminar topics with students. Attendance is voluntary.
Su
Deb
--- In [email protected], Elliot Temple
<curi@c...> wrote:
ostensibly (unless as has been said you're forced to go), something
that you choose to do as a means to an end. If you want to get into
med school, you'll need to get through some pretty grueling pre-med
coursework (all that dissecting and body parts bleh).
My DH is a classic case study: he was bored and frustrated and
generally just wanted out of high school. He got by with Cs mostly,
just enough so he didn't have to stay any longer than necessary.
Most of his teachers considered him 'not college material'. And at
the time he agreed, seeing it as just more sitting in classrooms.
Fast forward ten years, in which time he has gone from mailroom at
one company to doing software support for another (with a couple
other stops in between) - pretty high tech nice job for a high
school diploma, could've continued if he wanted to. He decided that
he -wanted- to go to college to pursue something that interested
him, and college was where the resources he wanted happened to be.
He had a great time academically with much harder coursework than
high school, ended up with a 3.99 GPA (that's one B in 4 years of
fulltime classes) - so much for not being college material - and the
added maturity of being nearer 30 than 20 (not to mention he already
had me!) made the social issues moot for the most part. It was his
*choice* to be there; his *choice* to do the work; his *choice* to
take that boring economics 101 class because it was part of the
package for the other things he wanted to do. Kind of like chopping
onions because your favorite dish needs onions - the chopping part
is not the most fun but you do it because the end result has value
to you.
--Deb
<curi@c...> wrote:
>where
> But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,
> *homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school
> they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The restis
> mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)Ah but the textbooks, workbooks, homework, curriculum, tests are,
> College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
> even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
ostensibly (unless as has been said you're forced to go), something
that you choose to do as a means to an end. If you want to get into
med school, you'll need to get through some pretty grueling pre-med
coursework (all that dissecting and body parts bleh).
My DH is a classic case study: he was bored and frustrated and
generally just wanted out of high school. He got by with Cs mostly,
just enough so he didn't have to stay any longer than necessary.
Most of his teachers considered him 'not college material'. And at
the time he agreed, seeing it as just more sitting in classrooms.
Fast forward ten years, in which time he has gone from mailroom at
one company to doing software support for another (with a couple
other stops in between) - pretty high tech nice job for a high
school diploma, could've continued if he wanted to. He decided that
he -wanted- to go to college to pursue something that interested
him, and college was where the resources he wanted happened to be.
He had a great time academically with much harder coursework than
high school, ended up with a 3.99 GPA (that's one B in 4 years of
fulltime classes) - so much for not being college material - and the
added maturity of being nearer 30 than 20 (not to mention he already
had me!) made the social issues moot for the most part. It was his
*choice* to be there; his *choice* to do the work; his *choice* to
take that boring economics 101 class because it was part of the
package for the other things he wanted to do. Kind of like chopping
onions because your favorite dish needs onions - the chopping part
is not the most fun but you do it because the end result has value
to you.
--Deb
Pamela Sorooshian
All three of my unschooled kids have chosen to take college courses -
they take what they're interested in at the community college - this
has included: voice class, choral group, ceramics, computer
programming, French, acting, costume design, ballet, tap,
printmaking, speech and debate, creative writing, photography, piano,
guitar, statistics, history, and on and on.
My oldest has chosen to go to a university and get a degree that she
really wants and loves working toward - her dream is to own and
operate a camp in a beautiful outdoors place which offers fine arts
opportunities for kids and adults. The degree she is working on is in
recreation and leisure studies and it has included a lot of first-
hand experience in community agencies, along with classroom learning.
It requires 2,000 hours of volunteer work plus a 1,000 hour
internship. It has also included outdoor adventures such as staying
on an island for a week and this spring will include a river rafting
trip in another state. Very exciting. Very fun. NOTHING like high
school.
When she decided to transfer to a university, she looked at the
requirements for admission and at which ones she'd already met by
just taking whatever happened to appeal to her. She had to take
several math classes and a science class. So she did that. Otherwise,
she'd managed to cover all the general education requirements just by
taking what looked fun. She started at 13 years old and was nearly 20
when she transferred, so she'd had 7 years of "dabbling" in college
before she decided to start working toward a degree.
Community colleges are inexpensive and high quality here in
California. In fact, at the one my kids attend, kids who are under 18
and not a high school graduate attend as "special admit" students and
don't even have to pay tuition.
There is nothing compulsory about signing up - and there are many
classes that are not the conventional lecture, homework, test style.
My kids see the local colleges as ways to tap into incredible
physical resources - science labs, art studios, singing groups,
theaters, photography equipment, and so on, AND incredible human
resources - people with expertise to share.
Roya came out of her first English class just wiggling with
excitement -- "I can't believe how cool this is - someone who is PAID
to read what I write and comment on it!"
They do get good grades and like getting good grades but they never
worked FOR the grade. I've heard them tell other students - "If you
concentrate on learning and ask questions and make connections,
you'll get a good grade, but if you just focus on cramming for the
tests, you might still get a good grade, but you won't learn as much."
-pam
they take what they're interested in at the community college - this
has included: voice class, choral group, ceramics, computer
programming, French, acting, costume design, ballet, tap,
printmaking, speech and debate, creative writing, photography, piano,
guitar, statistics, history, and on and on.
My oldest has chosen to go to a university and get a degree that she
really wants and loves working toward - her dream is to own and
operate a camp in a beautiful outdoors place which offers fine arts
opportunities for kids and adults. The degree she is working on is in
recreation and leisure studies and it has included a lot of first-
hand experience in community agencies, along with classroom learning.
It requires 2,000 hours of volunteer work plus a 1,000 hour
internship. It has also included outdoor adventures such as staying
on an island for a week and this spring will include a river rafting
trip in another state. Very exciting. Very fun. NOTHING like high
school.
When she decided to transfer to a university, she looked at the
requirements for admission and at which ones she'd already met by
just taking whatever happened to appeal to her. She had to take
several math classes and a science class. So she did that. Otherwise,
she'd managed to cover all the general education requirements just by
taking what looked fun. She started at 13 years old and was nearly 20
when she transferred, so she'd had 7 years of "dabbling" in college
before she decided to start working toward a degree.
Community colleges are inexpensive and high quality here in
California. In fact, at the one my kids attend, kids who are under 18
and not a high school graduate attend as "special admit" students and
don't even have to pay tuition.
There is nothing compulsory about signing up - and there are many
classes that are not the conventional lecture, homework, test style.
My kids see the local colleges as ways to tap into incredible
physical resources - science labs, art studios, singing groups,
theaters, photography equipment, and so on, AND incredible human
resources - people with expertise to share.
Roya came out of her first English class just wiggling with
excitement -- "I can't believe how cool this is - someone who is PAID
to read what I write and comment on it!"
They do get good grades and like getting good grades but they never
worked FOR the grade. I've heard them tell other students - "If you
concentrate on learning and ask questions and make connections,
you'll get a good grade, but if you just focus on cramming for the
tests, you might still get a good grade, but you won't learn as much."
-pam
On Jan 25, 2006, at 6:00 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> You could pick --
> with in bounds but it was way better than high school! --what courses
> to take.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 25, 2006, at 9:43 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:
college! I've been to college. My husband teachers at two colleges.
My daughter is taking 2 college classes at 14.
There's a big big psychological difference when you've chosen to be
somewhere and know you can choose to leave at anytime. What's wrong
with teachers and textbooks and grades, etc. is in believing that
they're necessary not only for learning but for how well you'll
succeed in life. Unschooled kids know that's not true. Most schooled
kids I bet figure it out too when they get to college. I did.
While I certainly took my share of dull required courses, I knew I
was there voluntarily and they were just hoops I had to jump through
in order to take the courses that were more fun and to get a degree.
The worth of schooled children outside of school is too often judged
by their school performance. If a schooled child isn't doing well in
history or math or science, too often they're seen as "less than"
because their one and only "job" (which they can't even quit!) is to
do well in school.
College kids can always choose something else or change their major.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But colleges still have *teachers*, *grades*, *textbooks*,You're wording this as though writing to people who've never been to
> *homework*, *tests*, *curriculums*. It's the part of school where
> they try to make you learn that actually hurts kids. (The rest is
> mostly just boring, except the social scene often hurts too.)
> College still has all the bad educational ideas. And they expect
> even more from students. Higher standards, they call it.
college! I've been to college. My husband teachers at two colleges.
My daughter is taking 2 college classes at 14.
There's a big big psychological difference when you've chosen to be
somewhere and know you can choose to leave at anytime. What's wrong
with teachers and textbooks and grades, etc. is in believing that
they're necessary not only for learning but for how well you'll
succeed in life. Unschooled kids know that's not true. Most schooled
kids I bet figure it out too when they get to college. I did.
While I certainly took my share of dull required courses, I knew I
was there voluntarily and they were just hoops I had to jump through
in order to take the courses that were more fun and to get a degree.
The worth of schooled children outside of school is too often judged
by their school performance. If a schooled child isn't doing well in
history or math or science, too often they're seen as "less than"
because their one and only "job" (which they can't even quit!) is to
do well in school.
College kids can always choose something else or change their major.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cookwoodpress
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
a front flip. And I loved singing in the chorus. Oh yeah, and there
was all the demonstrations. There was lots to learn besides actual
classwork (though I loved most of that too).
Liz
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
> "The rest" of college for me was fantastic. I learned all KINDS ofOne of my favorite classes was trampoline. I finally learned how to do
> things,
a front flip. And I loved singing in the chorus. Oh yeah, and there
was all the demonstrations. There was lots to learn besides actual
classwork (though I loved most of that too).
Liz
elainegh8
I can only talk about the UK experience. University attendance is
entirely voluntary. It is up to you if you attend lectures or do the
work. It is not the University lecturer's job to chase up work not
done. If you don't like a lecture you can walk out. University
lecturers cannot give punishments. People usually attend University
from age 18 onwards. There are also many mature students aged 21 and
over with no upper limit on age.
On average you spend between 3 and 4 years at University to gain a
degree. Universities also have facilities for further study for master
degrees and then doctorates. Places are hard to get and funding even
harder.
You cannot just walk out of school, the police actually have powers to
bring you to school if they find you out of school in school hours. It
is a teacher's job to chase up work undone. You cannot choose what to
study. You can be punished in school in some way, like being given a
detention. You cannot walk out of a class without risking punishment.
School is usually attended up to age 16.
College in the UK is sort of a half way house between school and
University. People usually attend college somewhere between aged 16
and 18/19, but you will also encounter mature students there too.
College lecturers can and do chase up work not done, but cannot give
out punishments. Attendance at college is voluntary and you can choose
what to study.
There are a lot of college lecturers who behave towards the students
in the same manner as school teachers do. Treating the students with a
lack of respect for their autonomy.
Some schools have a further section where you can study from age 16
until age 18. This is pretty much like college in attitude and
responsibilities.
I would say the difference is not the student's attitude, but rather
the teacher's/lecturer's and society's attitude towards the students
that is the main difference.
BWs Elaine
entirely voluntary. It is up to you if you attend lectures or do the
work. It is not the University lecturer's job to chase up work not
done. If you don't like a lecture you can walk out. University
lecturers cannot give punishments. People usually attend University
from age 18 onwards. There are also many mature students aged 21 and
over with no upper limit on age.
On average you spend between 3 and 4 years at University to gain a
degree. Universities also have facilities for further study for master
degrees and then doctorates. Places are hard to get and funding even
harder.
You cannot just walk out of school, the police actually have powers to
bring you to school if they find you out of school in school hours. It
is a teacher's job to chase up work undone. You cannot choose what to
study. You can be punished in school in some way, like being given a
detention. You cannot walk out of a class without risking punishment.
School is usually attended up to age 16.
College in the UK is sort of a half way house between school and
University. People usually attend college somewhere between aged 16
and 18/19, but you will also encounter mature students there too.
College lecturers can and do chase up work not done, but cannot give
out punishments. Attendance at college is voluntary and you can choose
what to study.
There are a lot of college lecturers who behave towards the students
in the same manner as school teachers do. Treating the students with a
lack of respect for their autonomy.
Some schools have a further section where you can study from age 16
until age 18. This is pretty much like college in attitude and
responsibilities.
I would say the difference is not the student's attitude, but rather
the teacher's/lecturer's and society's attitude towards the students
that is the main difference.
BWs Elaine
> > Is college bad just like school, or is there
> > something that makes it different and better?
Schuyler Waynforth
--- In [email protected], "elainegh8"
<elainegh8@h...> wrote:
things than I experienced in the U.S. certainly. David (dh) has been a
lecturer in the U.S. and in the UK. In the U.S. he could expect that
the students would be able to follow up certain interests easily
outside of his course (for example if they were interested in some of
the statistics he presented it would be easy for them to enroll in a
statistics class for the next semester or a biology class or another
evolutionary anthropology class). Within the UK university system you
sign up for a subject at the outset (which has a set curriculum in a
set order, so you have to take psych 101 in your first year and psych
201 in your second year with the third year being the only year (in
Psych at Durham) that you can take optional psychology classes) and if
you change your mind you have to start from scratch again. It is
extremely difficult to take courses outside of your field. So, while
you are free to attend university because of the structure of the
education system you aren't free to choose what you study--and you
have to have decided want you want to take from a very early age in
order to study for the right A levels. Also, David has to take
attendance. So, the students are risking their grades by not
attending, or their ability to sue the University for a better grade.
David or the secretaries are required to chase up work that is not
done, and to contact students who have poor attendance. Something that
the University requires.
Also, at the University of Durham at least, there are very, very few
mature students. It seems the Open University and ex-polytechnics are
picking up the mature students more than established universities are.
In the US you can take classes at University as the desire strikes.
You don't have to be enrolled in a degree program, you can just drop
in and drop back out again. It doesn't hinder your finishing a degree
to extend the length of your time at university from 4 years to 10
years.
a lecture at a local college and after spent a lot of time talking to
the lecturer who had invited him to come and speak. Apparently she
has no control over what she teaches and must teach in accordance with
the National Curriculum, which is completely about teaching to the
exam for psychology A-levels (University entrance exams are subject
based like GRE exams can be in the U.S.). Not only that she is
forbidden to leave the college until all students have left the school
and must be there in the morning to greet the students. College
lecturers are given no respect for their own autonomy--it becomes a
vicious cycle, I imagine.
Schuyler
<elainegh8@h...> wrote:
>I think this has changed in the UK. There is far less choice over
> I can only talk about the UK experience. University attendance is
> entirely voluntary. It is up to you if you attend lectures or do the
> work. It is not the University lecturer's job to chase up work not
> done. If you don't like a lecture you can walk out. University
> lecturers cannot give punishments. People usually attend University
> from age 18 onwards. There are also many mature students aged 21 and
> over with no upper limit on age.
things than I experienced in the U.S. certainly. David (dh) has been a
lecturer in the U.S. and in the UK. In the U.S. he could expect that
the students would be able to follow up certain interests easily
outside of his course (for example if they were interested in some of
the statistics he presented it would be easy for them to enroll in a
statistics class for the next semester or a biology class or another
evolutionary anthropology class). Within the UK university system you
sign up for a subject at the outset (which has a set curriculum in a
set order, so you have to take psych 101 in your first year and psych
201 in your second year with the third year being the only year (in
Psych at Durham) that you can take optional psychology classes) and if
you change your mind you have to start from scratch again. It is
extremely difficult to take courses outside of your field. So, while
you are free to attend university because of the structure of the
education system you aren't free to choose what you study--and you
have to have decided want you want to take from a very early age in
order to study for the right A levels. Also, David has to take
attendance. So, the students are risking their grades by not
attending, or their ability to sue the University for a better grade.
David or the secretaries are required to chase up work that is not
done, and to contact students who have poor attendance. Something that
the University requires.
Also, at the University of Durham at least, there are very, very few
mature students. It seems the Open University and ex-polytechnics are
picking up the mature students more than established universities are.
In the US you can take classes at University as the desire strikes.
You don't have to be enrolled in a degree program, you can just drop
in and drop back out again. It doesn't hinder your finishing a degree
to extend the length of your time at university from 4 years to 10
years.
>(N.B. In the UK college is the equivalent of high school.) David gave
> There are a lot of college lecturers who behave towards the students
> in the same manner as school teachers do. Treating the students with a
> lack of respect for their autonomy.
a lecture at a local college and after spent a lot of time talking to
the lecturer who had invited him to come and speak. Apparently she
has no control over what she teaches and must teach in accordance with
the National Curriculum, which is completely about teaching to the
exam for psychology A-levels (University entrance exams are subject
based like GRE exams can be in the U.S.). Not only that she is
forbidden to leave the college until all students have left the school
and must be there in the morning to greet the students. College
lecturers are given no respect for their own autonomy--it becomes a
vicious cycle, I imagine.
Schuyler
elainegh8
> I think this has changed in the UK.Thanks Schuyler, it probably has. Although once you're in Uni it's
much easier to transfer to a different course at another Uni. My older
daughter's partner just did that.
My OD's college experience stunk.
I figure it's the wheels of the 'Edu Biz' moving that's changing
everything.
BWs Elaine