lddixon4

I have been reading many posts for several weeks. I think I am getting a better understanding of where radical unschooling sits with the principles instead of rules idea, but I'm still not clear.

I am just going to throw out a couple of scenarios with our family to see if I can understand this a little better.

I have 4 children, 1 is grown (22) and chooses to live at our home. He has a good job and pays us rent and his own expenses, except he eats with us and of course I don't make him pay his portion of what dinner would cost or anything else he takes from the kitchen. He does not seem like he wants to move to his own place anytime soon. He fits in well with his younger siblings, is close to all of us,etc. However, he has come home drunk a few times where it has been noticable to my 14 year old and he even drove my 14 year old home from a hockey game they were at together when he had been drinking.---- Advice????

My 8 year old and 5 year old got glasses last week. 8 yr. old is wearing them most of the time. 5 year old is not. I constantly have to remind him (gently) but I can see that I am quickly going to get into a battle that of course, is against what I read on here. Is vision is pretty bad according to the doctor and if he does not wear them she said he will develop a "lazy eye", which will lead to more intervention. My 8 year old has the choice to wear hers when needed. -----Advice?

I have read a post on here that I can not find now, but it gave the advice to let the 2 year old stay up watching TV with headphones while the others sleep, because she doesn't want to go to sleep. Is this not a safety concern? Big things can happen if a child is up all alone. It said to not make it an option. I'm wondering how this is different from not encouraging a child to go to bed?

Also, one child wants to go on a walk and one doesn't?



Lisa

Meredith

"lddixon4" <lddixon@...> wrote:
>However, he has come home drunk a few times where it has been noticable to my 14 year old and he even drove my 14 year old home from a hockey game they were at together when he had been drinking.
******************

First of all, see those as two completely different issues - one is a safety issue, while the other is a social issue. It's not inherently bad to be drunk. If he's annoying or clumsy or outright obnoxious, you can address the topic on those terms. I'm assuming by driving "when he had been drinking" you meant impaired - that's something to empower your 14yo to say no to, if he's depending on his brother for a ride. Does he have a cell phone? Or can you make alternate driving arrangements?

>>Is vision is pretty bad according to the doctor and if he does not wear them she said he will develop a "lazy eye", which will lead to more intervention.
********************

Don't rely on one doctor's assessment of the situation, do your own research on the subject. Doctors don't always have the most... er modern outlook on treatment, especially where kids are concerned. I seem to recall there are other options, but not the details.

> I have read a post on here that I can not find now, but it gave the advice to let the 2 year old stay up watching TV with headphones while the others sleep, because she doesn't want to go to sleep. Is this not a safety concern?
*******************

It depends. If the 2yo is in the bed with mom and dad, watching a laptop while they sleep, how is that more dangerous than a 2yo lying awake fretting and bored? If a child isn't sleeping, it's better to plan for that than to pretend you can magically make it not happen - that might mean one parent stays up, or new locks are put on the bedroom, or mom puts in a movie and dozes with half an eye open, or some combination of those things.

---Meredith

Schuyler

>>Is vision is pretty bad according to the doctor and if he does not wear them she said he will develop a "lazy eye", which will lead to more intervention.
********************

Don't rely on one doctor's assessment of the situation, do your own research on the subject. Doctors don't always have the most... er modern outlook on treatment, especially where kids are concerned. I seem to recall there are other options, but not the details. 

_________________________


A recent study found that video gaming was an effective treatment for lazy eye (http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20101116-247/lazy-eye-playing-video-games-might-help/). Not that I'm saying you shouldn't avoid lazy eye, but maybe if he won't wear glasses, get him to game more. You could probably also get him to wear the glasses more readily when playing games.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Dixon

>>>>>A recent study found that video gaming was an effective treatment for
lazy eye
(http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20101116-247/lazy-eye-playing-video-games
-might-help/). Not that I'm saying you shouldn't avoid lazy eye, but maybe
if he won't wear glasses, get him to game more. You could probably also get
him to wear the glasses more readily when playing games.







I do not think this is a solution. OK, he loves to be outside. In fact we
are outside most of the day playing in the snow, taking care and playing
with our dogs, dog mushing, planting, etc. This child LOVES playing ice
hockey every day. He and his sister love digging ice shelters every day. (We
live in Rural Alaska.) I have no desire to encourage video games if he has
no interest. Thanks for trying to help.







From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Schuyler
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Still trying to understand pinciples







>>Is vision is pretty bad according to the doctor and if he does not wear
them she said he will develop a "lazy eye", which will lead to more
intervention.
********************

Don't rely on one doctor's assessment of the situation, do your own research
on the subject. Doctors don't always have the most... er modern outlook on
treatment, especially where kids are concerned. I seem to recall there are
other options, but not the details.

_________________________

A recent study found that video gaming was an effective treatment for lazy
eye
(http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20101116-247/lazy-eye-playing-video-games
-might-help/). Not that I'm saying you shouldn't avoid lazy eye, but maybe
if he won't wear glasses, get him to game more. You could probably also get
him to wear the glasses more readily when playing games.

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Dixon

>>>>First of all, see those as two completely different issues - one is a
safety issue, while the other is a social issue. It's not inherently bad to
be drunk. If he's annoying or clumsy or outright obnoxious, you can address
the topic on those terms. I'm assuming by driving "when he had been
drinking" you meant impaired - that's something to empower your 14yo to say
no to, if he's depending on his brother for a ride. Does he have a cell
phone? Or can you make alternate driving arrangements? >>>



How do you "address the topic on those terms" without saying you can't do
this?? My confusion in all of this is: if you have principles and someone is
not living up to them, how do address it without stepping all over their
freedom?? And if they do something like driving while intoxicated with
brother in the car,(brother did not realize it until he was in the car with
him. They had been visiting with separate people at the game and met up at
the end) do you just not say anything to the 22 year old? I feel a need to
remind him that this is dangerous behavior. I did talk with them before they
left the rink and asked him if he had been drinking. He said no, everything
is fine. (He knew I would have to take the little kids out at night to come
get 14 year old and they would not want to go, so I know he meant well,
but.) My husband was working out of town.



>>>>Don't rely on one doctor's assessment of the situation, do your own
research on the subject. Doctors don't always have the most... er modern
outlook on treatment, especially where kids are concerned. I seem to recall
there are other options, but not the details.

> We have been told by 2 doctors. The first one has "warned" us before but
we decided not to get glasses for him at that time. After 2 years and
hearing it again from that doctor, plus the second one. We decided to try.
Believe me, I'm all about natural medicine!



Again, my misunderstanding is how do you handle these situations when you
will step all over their freedom and rights, but not doing something could
be hurting or damaging to them?? I'm sure a child will be resentful when
they get older to have never had their parent step in when they were too
young to understand. I can imagine thoughts like.. "why did my parents not
have me wear the glasses so I don't have this eye condition", "or allow my
brother to continue coming home drunk, when now he is an alcoholic, or has
allowed me to be next to around a drinking brother all my teenage years."



I really need help understanding this J



Lisa










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

Part of solving a problem is looking for a range of solutions as well as examining the degree that the problem exists. You could read the article, go to PLoS and see if you can read the study, and see what it was that worked with video gaming. You could look more into what feeds into lazy eye to start with to see if the doctor is simply trying to make you and your son do as you are told, or if there is a true causal link between not wearing glasses and lazy eye. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amblyopia has a review of the condition and some of the known links. Knowing more about the risks may help you determine how fearful you need to be, how inevitable lazy eye is for your son. Will wearing glasses definitely prevent lazy eye? Simon had a friend who suffered from lazy eye and who wore his glasses almost religiously before it developed. The glasses didn't keep him safe. Questioning the link may help you to feel less freaked out about not following the
doctor's prescription.


A 5 year old, very active boy is going to be hard to make conform to a glasses all the time rule. How were you planning on implementing it? As he gets older it will be easier to discuss with him the benefits of glasses wearing. As he wants to see more, he'll probably wear them more. As you said his older sister is fine with wearing glasses. Don't expect to much from him at 5. You could also look into different forms of glasses. Prescription sunglasses, for example, which may help with dealing with snow glare and make ice hockey easier, although I don't know if glasses are compatible with hockey or if you need prescription goggles.


Schuyler



________________________________



 
>>>>>A recent study found that video gaming was an effective treatment for
lazy eye
(http://news.cnet.com/8301-27083_3-20101116-247/lazy-eye-playing-video-games
-might-help/). Not that I'm saying you shouldn't avoid lazy eye, but maybe
if he won't wear glasses, get him to game more. You could probably also get
him to wear the glasses more readily when playing games.

I do not think this is a solution. OK, he loves to be outside. In fact we
are outside most of the day playing in the snow, taking care and playing
with our dogs, dog mushing, planting, etc. This child LOVES playing ice
hockey every day. He and his sister love digging ice shelters every day. (We
live in Rural Alaska.) I have no desire to encourage video games if he has
no interest. Thanks for trying to help.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

How does wearing the glasses affect the things he loves? Do they get in the way when digging in the snow or playing hockey? If they're in the way, then of course they aren't going to be used. If wearing glasses got in the way of doing what you love, how readily would you wear them? Can you get prescription goggles that he can wear when playing hockey and digging in the snow? They both protect his eyes from flying objects (pucks, ice, etc) AND they'd help his vision. Having glasses can be a pain in the butt to keep track of for adults who are active much less kids. I wear glasses for reading - all I really need is some pharmacy generic reading glasses. But, every time I lifted my head to look at someone talking to me, they'd be blurry so I'd have to pull down or remove the glasses. PITA! Now I have Rx progressives so that I can read AND look across the room without removing the glasses. BUT they don't work well for the way I work on the computer so I keep them here at my desk and only wear them when I'm going to be in meetings where I need to take notes and/or look at Power Point slides across the room. And I still have to remind myself every day to grab my glasses before I head to work - and I'm way older than him!

Deb R



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

>>How do you "address the topic on those terms" without saying you can't do
this?? My confusion in all of this is: if you have principles and someone is
not living up to them, how do address it without stepping all over their
freedom?? And if they do something like driving while intoxicated with
brother in the car,(brother did not realize it until he was in the car with
him.<<

Meredith said there are two different issues. The first was your 22 year old being drunk around your 14 year old. Socially awkward, but not life endangering. The other issue comes from your 22 year old driving when he is drunk. That's not a good thing, not just for him and your 14 year old son, but for other folks on the road. Those are the terms she's talking about addressing it on.


Simon and Linnaea have known from their wee ages of first sleeping over at other people's homes that David or I or both would come and get them if they needed us to, whatever the reason. We've driven other children home in the middle of the night when they decided that they wanted to go home. They know that we will come for them when they need us to. The fact that your son was willing to override his safety, his brother's safety and the safety of other drivers on the road to drive home so as not to inconvenience you and his younger siblings suggests that he doesn't know that you will come to his aid when needed. It seems that not only can't you trust him to make a wise decision about drinking and driving, he doesn't trust you to help him, no questions asked or recriminations offered, when he needs it if he has been drinking or otherwise. 

Talk to him about how you want him to be safe more than you mind the inconvenience. Talk to him about not drinking and driving. Don't ask him to be responsible for his younger siblings in a situation where he may be drinking until you feel that he would call you if he needed to be driven home. Or if he needed a cab called and paid for when he got home. Or a family friend to come out who is unlikely to disgrace him or give him a public dressing down. 

>>I can imagine thoughts like.. "why did my parents not
have me wear the glasses so I don't have this eye condition", "or allow my
brother to continue coming home drunk, when now he is an alcoholic, or has
allowed me to be next to around a drinking brother all my teenage years."<<

That's a dark future you are seeing. It also argues that you have a lot of power to change the future. If you are worried about your son becoming an alcoholic you may do well to read through Bruce Alexander's work on addiction, http://walrusmagazine.com/article.php?ref=2007.12-health-rat-trap&page= is a review of some of his work. He looked at how much substances are in themselves the cause of the addiction and concluded that it was the envrionment. He started his life-long research with examining the studies looking at addiction rates in rats and questioned the quality of their environment as a factor in the findings. He found that when the rats had good living environments, engaging living environments they were so untempted by the water laced with opiates that, unlike rats in small cages without stimulation, they drank straight water almost exclusively.


All that is to say that rather than hovering over your son to make sure that he isn't an alcoholic, as though that is within your control, do what you can, given that he is 22, to make his environment good. Do what you can to help him to be happy and engaged and accept that there are limits to your control over someone else's preferences.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 2, 2012, at 2:37 PM, Lisa Dixon wrote:

> if you have principles and someone is
> not living up to them

The principles are for *you*. They're to help *you* make the choices that lead toward creating the environment that supports joyful living and learning.

They aren't rules that you've suddenly adopted for other people. Doesn't work that way!

Empower your 14 yo to say no. Make sure he has a way to get another ride if he feels unsafe.

Tell your older sone that he needs to not be driving his brother if he has been drinking at all. Tell him to call you if he has been drinking and someone will come and pick up your 14 yo. Don't even hint that it would be a problem so he doesn't have to weigh whether to bother you. Don't shame him if he has been drinking (or he'll lie.)

You can't make him not drink. But do what you can to not create situations where it advantageous for him to lie about drinking.

> how do address it without stepping all over their
> freedom??

Freedom isn't a good unschooling concept. It can really muddy thinking.

Unschooling is about creating a supportive nurturing atmosphere for the kids you're unschooling where they can pursue their interests and have access to more.

It's not about "freedom" to do whatever someone wants to do.

> I feel a need to
> remind him that this is dangerous behavior.


I'm sure he already knows. He's not doing it because he's ignorant of the risks. He's doing it for other reasons that probably reach back into his childhood that may have to do with control and lack of choice. When kids are controlled, one direction it can drive them is to blatantly ignore the rules, even the sensible ones, to feel they have control.

> how do you handle these situations when you
> will step all over their freedom and rights, but not doing something could
> be hurting or damaging to them??

Don't think in terms of freedom and rights but being your child's partner. Don't be the doctor's partner. Be the part of the team with greater knowledge and power over the world. Rather than beginning with the idea you must force your son to wear glasses because the doctor said so. Research on line. Become informed. Take your son with you to the doctor to discuss what's wrong, what the choice of treatments are, what will happen without treatment. Be your child's advocate in helping him find what choices he has and how much leeway there is.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

>>if you have principles and someone is
> not living up to them...

They're your principles, not his. He doesn't have to share them or your interpretation of them. If your principle is "be thoughtful" then it's up to you to be thoughtful. The idea is not to teach your principles to your kids, but to be your best self. People learn from one another and often emulate friends. If your principles, as expressed by you, are attractive to your kids, they'll have a reason to emulate you. That's not a theory ;) it's one of the key ways people learn from other people - adults from adults, kids from kid friends, kids from adults, adults from kids!

In response to:
>If he's annoying or clumsy or outright obnoxious, you can address
> the topic on those terms.

Lisa Dixon <lddixon@...> wrote:
> How do you "address the topic on those terms" without saying you can't do
> this??

One of the ideas which will allow you to live by your principles when another person seems to be stomping all over your feelings, is to assume positive intent - assume your son doesn't want to upset the people he cares about. Given that, brainstorm with him some ways to be home drunk that aren't upsetting to others. Don't treat him as a bad guy, but as someone who maybe didn't think things through all the way - adults do that all the time! So what would be more helpful, next time?

>>I did talk with them before they
> left the rink and asked him if he had been drinking. He said no, everything
> is fine.

Was it fine? I mean, was he actually impaired or had he just "been drinking"? Consider that thoughtfully, rather than emotionally. Maybe he really was fine, and you're blowing this out of proportion.

If his behavior was unsafe and he lied about it, don't set him up to fail again. Don't ask him to drive. If he offers, you can say you don't want to curtail his fun, or put him in the position of admitting something embarrassing - "I drank more than I could handle" is very embarrassing for a young man! Treat him kindly and thoughtfully as a person who wants to do the right thing, and make it Easier for him.

>> how do you handle these situations when you
> will step all over their freedom and rights, but not doing something could
> be hurting or damaging to them??

That's why it's really important to have as clear an idea as possible how much hurt and damage you're talking about. This isn't a life threatening issue, it's not even an issue of a kid needing surgery later. It takes more effort to correct the problem later, but you have the advantage of having a child old enough to understand the process and make active decisions in his own treatment and progress - that's a pretty big deal, held up to months and months of daily battles over glasses.

When it comes to doctor's recommendations and little kids, its also really important to consider what's reasonable for Any child - not what the doctor says, but what other families actually experience. Not a lot of active 5yos are going to wear glasses for very long at a time, and that's figured in to the recommendation.

And it's important to look into alternatives - rather than taking away choices, add to them. What about an eye patch? He might like that better... especially if it came with a whole pirate costume ;) Patches are worn "from weeks to months." There's also an option of atropine drops. You can probably Combine options and give your guy a choice, since the treatments all do essentially the same thing. And since correcting for near vision seems to be the really big deal, offering more fun sit-down projects, reading, tv and video games would probably be helpful - activities where it's easier to manage glasses or a patch than running around outside. There's also vision therapy, although that's more for older kids and adults, but it's worth looking in to what they Do in the vision therapy and see if it's something you can replicate at home, for fun. That may be why video games are good, actually - they require a lot of focus and coordination on the optical level.

Now, I have a hunch you're scowling saying "you didn't answer my question" - but honestly, that's How you solve problems when you base your thinking on principles rather than rules. You're starting from a rule, step back and look for the principles underlying That rule - what are the glasses supposed to do? How important is it? How do we do it in ways which work for the kid?

There are real limits in life. Where living with principles is different is that limits aren't end-points, they're chances to look at things from a different angle and get creative.

One of the common traps parents fall into - are culturally encouraged to fall into - is treating all limits as the same as though wearing or not wearing glasses was in the same category as having a broken bone set or getting chemotherapy. When the limits are big enough, it's really easy for parents to say "this isn't negotiable... so how can we make it more bearable?" That gets fuzzier when the limits are little, the eventual results vague and poorly defined, and somehow that muddies parental thinking. Step back. It's not life threatening, so there's lots of time to think, to do research, to come up with alternatives.

---Meredith

Lisa Dixon

I see what your saying about principles and I can see how where it's always
a learning process, always seeking out new ways to see problems and
solutions. That sounds wonderful. I feel like I do that most of the time.



This advice to always doubt the the information presented by the group
member asking the question is not helpful. If I said he was drunk, he was
drunk. I'm just asking a question here, not supplying evidence in court!
Please, enough with the doubting. This is not helpful to someone asking a
question.



Also, assuming the child is absolutely without the need of any guidance and
backing down and running in every which direction, doing insanely crazy
things (like talking your kids into playing video games and sitting more,
instead of going outside and doing what he loves) is not beneficial and is
even contradicting to what you say unschooling is. What about his love of
being outside?? Now the glasses override that??



See. you are modeling behavior that you are trying NOT to instill in your
children. Modeling that only the other persons thoughts must be right.
Instead of modeling that others have great thoughts, ideas, and needs and we
should respect them we teach that when you get older your thoughts and ideas
go by the way side and only your child's ideas and feelings will be correct.




I have been watching this group for a while and never could understand why
answers were always that the parent must be wrong about something and the
child is ALWAYS right. It seems instead of offering some real advice you
always say well you must have done something wrong. Well! How do you fix
that?? Why is that human's (the child) thoughts and ideas superior to the
other human's?



I have always used the term unschooling to describe our family, but I was
beginning to question it when I read all this other stuff that has nothing
to do with unschooling or schooling. We allow our kids to learn in whatever
way they want for the day. They don't really know what school is. They get
up on their own at whatever time they choose and go from there. I am always
available to help them further their learning in whatever way they desire. I
do not see how teaching some basic ideas of "not a good idea" or "this is
not working with everyone right now" is harmful. In fact I don't see how it
is not done. I have given you main responders a chance to show me. Mostly
what I'm hearing is a lack of trust in the adult and what the adult is
feeling or thinking at all times. Are we teaching our children that we are
born perfect, but by the time you are an adult you will need to yield to
your children every time it interferes with your thoughts??



I really think you should change your name from unschoolers to something
that has nothing to do with school. I don't think I will call myself and
unschooler anymore. I can't practice these principles and how to implement
them if no one can even explain them clearly. Anyone who would encourage
their son to sit inside instead of enjoying this wonderful world outdoors is
not a group I'm willing or wanting to be part of.



Please remove me.

Lisa Dixon







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Lisa Dixon wrote:


> I do not see how teaching some basic ideas of "not a good idea" or "this is
> not working with everyone right now" is harmful.


These are some basics of human nature:

If an idea is harmful, people do want to be stopped if they're unaware of the consequences.

People tend to resist teaching when they don't want the information.

People do want their needs and wants met. So if they're going after something in a less ideal way, they want *better* ideas, not a focus on how wrong they are for the solution they picked.

That's all human nature that will help parents work *with* a child rather than set parent and child up as adversaries.

If a child needs to do something they don't want to for health reasons AND if a parent wants to work with her child rather than overriding the child, it does get more difficult because most of us haven't seen models of those kinds of solutions. But it *is* doable. It often involves seeing the situation in new ways and coming at the situation from different directions.

One is returning to focus on the original problem rather than the solution the doctor handed you. What you've done is turn the solution into a new problem of how to implement it. Step back. Go back to the beginning.

Investigate the pros and cons of the possible solutions, including doing nothing. If peanut-allergic 2 yos can be helped to learn how to choose foods that don't have peanuts, a 5 yo can be helped to understand what his options are with his eyes. Not in a scary way. But in a calm laying out of the information in ways that are understandable to him -- e.g., short and simple -- and mom's support in understanding it and trying the different options.

Right now you're stuck with two options: glasses or lazy eye and it's hard to see beyond that. Empower yourself with knowledge from the internet. Empower yourself with confidence to ask questions and keep asking questions. If that doctor isn't willing to work with you, find another. (Yes, being in Alaska makes it more difficult.) Don't let the doctor hold all the power. Empower your son through you. Be his power and his advocate to help him explore ideas. Help him try things out to see what works for him.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 2, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Lisa Dixon wrote:

> If I said he was drunk, he was
> drunk.

But people use words in different ways. We don't always each mean the same thing. And by wording it as drunk seen through the eyes of a 14 yo "he has come home drunk a few times where it has been noticable to my 14 year old" it sounded like you weren't using an adult scale of drunk but a 14 yo's who might be more sensitive to behavior that's not the norm and therefore feels unpredictable.

We can't see into people's homes. We can only see the picture painted by the words. It *is* tricky to try to imagine what picture the words will paint for someone else.

> doing insanely crazy
> things (like talking your kids into playing video games and sitting more,
> instead of going outside and doing what he loves)

All suggestions are directed at situations similar to yours, not specifically your child. If a suggestion won't work for your family, don't do it! We can't know what will work for your child. People are throwing out ideas that may work for you AND anyone else reading whose situation is similar.

We assume anyone reading will pick and choose what fits their family.

> is even contradicting to what you say unschooling is.


The first assumption on this list is for the parents to be mindful of who their child is. If a suggestions won't work for your child, don't do it!

THe list works best for people building a big picture of how relationships and learning work as they read. It won't work very well for people grabbing suggestions as though they generically apply to any child.

> Modeling that only the other persons thoughts must be right.


We aren't modeling anything. We're throwing out ideas that might work for people who have situations similar to yours.

We're offering an objective perspective that isn't tangled up with emotional involvement. That can help people see situations in new ways, give them new insights into the problem. IT's not better. It's different.

It's especially helpful when seeking solutions that work with human nature when moms can see what the situation looks like from their child's point of view.

We're *assuming* people will *think* about the ideas and decide for themselves whether the ideas will work or not.

I think what might be throwing you off is that you're assuming this is like a social interaction where feeling good takes priority over sound information. (Social interaction is *for* connecting with each other so it makes sense that people feeling comfortable is a priority.)

This list is more like an information site focused specifically on radical unschooling ideas. People post a question and a bunch of answers come back from a radically unschooling view point that might apply to that kind of situation. The answers may or may not be useful to your unique situation.

People *are* being as kind as they can be. But objective insights, that no one would dare express in a social situation, can feel harsh. And it's why new members are urged to read for a while to get a flavor of the list.

> we teach that when you get older your thoughts and ideas
> go by the way side and only your child's ideas and feelings will be correct.


This list is *for* people who are looking for ideas on how how to use relationship building tools to solve problems.

If you don't want those kind of ideas for this situation with the glasses, you can try Parenting.com, Mothering.com. Maybe DrSears.com. (I'm no expert on conventional parenting sites, of course. There may be better ones out there.)

I'm not being dismissive. A vegetarian list sticks to vegetarian suggestions. It would be impolite to string people along letting them assume their meat questions will be answered. It would be impolite to suggest that you'll get quick and easy ways to make your son do what he doesn't want to do.

Parenting seems hard because parents focus on making their child do what the parent believes is right. It's human nature to fight someone imposing their ideas on us. The radical unschooling approach will be to work *with* human nature rather than against it. To look outside the box for other ideas. To help kids be more informed of what choices they have. To be mindful of what they are capable of for their age. And so on.

People here do want to help people find workable solutions. But the mom needs to be the one making the thoughtful choices from among the suggestions of what might suit her family. Trying them out. And then, if things need more work, reporting back what's happening to give a more focused view of the dynamics.

> I have always used the term unschooling to describe our family

The list really should be called Radical Unschooling Basics. It's *really* hard to foresee problems like that when a list is started. And by the time problems arise, links have spread far and wide.

But the list description at the website does make it clear:

"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of whole-life (or "radical") unschooling. Ask experienced whole-life unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how it works in real families, across all aspects of life. "

Joyce



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

+++++++++++++++
>This advice to always doubt the the information presented by the group
>member asking the question is not helpful. If I said he was drunk, he was
>drunk. I'm just asking a question here, not supplying evidence in court!
>Please, enough with the doubting. This is not helpful to someone asking a
>question.
+++++++++++++++
Clarity is helpful to someone answering a question. Drunk has quite a range of variation. It can go from tipsy to passing out. For a fair number of people drinking is an issue that is emotionally charged. Any drinking is dangerous. Any imbibing of alchohol will lead to alchoholism. It helps when dealing with your own fears about something to really assess how valid your fear is. When people have asked how drunk was he, they weren't asking you to present evidence in a court, but to unemotionally assess how much he was drunk. How dangerous the situation was, really. 

When people are questioned about what they say about their children on this list it isn't because they are being deemed untrustworthy, but because people often over or under state or estimate what is going on. For example saying someone is watching television 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, is an overestimation. It is a statment that is given by a parent who is frustrated and emotional and isn't really thinking about what they are saying because they are so lost in what they are feeling. People on this list point that out, not to shame the parent, not to show what a liar they are, but to help them to see that they aren't really seeing what their child is doing. They aren't really looking at their child and television in an unemotional light.
 
+++++++++++++++
>Also, assuming the child is absolutely without the need of any guidance and
>backing down and running in every which direction, doing insanely crazy
>things (like talking your kids into playing video games and sitting more,
>instead of going outside and doing what he loves) is not beneficial and is
>even contradicting to what you say unschooling is. What about his love of
>being outside?? Now the glasses override that??
++++++++++++++++

Guidance is a big part of parenting. I don't think anyone here has suggested that you not be there to help your children to negotiate the world. Nor is anyone suggesting that video games supplant your kids outside play, but that you look to more than one means of solving a problem. Video games can produce different effects on eye focussing than outdoor play tends to do. Piracy was also suggested, with the associated patch wearing. If eye manipulation is part of the solution, maybe you could look into archery, maybe you could explore pellet guns, other things that change focus. 

I don't understand how those things are insanely crazy. That's a lot of crazy and a lot of emotion invested in a statement about video games. You didn't get that upset about piracy, but piracy is pretty horrific stuff. Even if it has some early democratic traditions involved. If they don't work for your son, don't do them. Just like this isn't a court asking you to present a blood alcohol level for your eldest son, this isn't an unschooling police unit which will be coming to your home to make sure that you've got some minimum number of video gaming units available. 

++++++++++++++++
>See. you are modeling behavior that you are trying NOT to instill in your
>children. Modeling that only the other persons thoughts must be right.
++++++++++++++++

I'm not sure what it is that brings you to that conclusion. You gave a couple of examples of things you were struggling with and people on this list posted suggestions and asked questions in a generous on their part way to help. My guess, because that's the best thing I've got going on, is that you are feeling very sensitive about what is going on in your home and how to handle things and any response that you received read as an attack. It is easy when one isn't the focus of discussion to see only kindness and patience being offered while the person who is feeling quite personally invested only sees bullying. Maybe, if you haven't unsubscribed already, you could print out what was written to you and save it for a day when you feel good about examining ideas and read it. Or you could imagine that it was being written about someone else and see what you can apply to your own situation. Or not. Maybe it is just too personal, too emotional for you to ever
read it otherwise.

 It may help others, if it is too late for you, to know that they can e-mail questions or comments to any of the moderators on the list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/members?group=mod) to be submitted anonymously. Having that degree of privacy may make it easier for someone to not take it quite so personally. No one here is gunning for folks, no one here is trying to shame people. 

+++++++++++++++++
>Modeling that only the other persons thoughts must be right.
>Instead of modeling that others have great thoughts, ideas, and needs and we
>should respect them we teach that when you get older your thoughts and ideas
>go by the way side and only your child's ideas and feelings will be correct.
+++++++++++++++++

Unschooling is both philosophical and experiential. It helps to have been a practicing unschooler, radical unschooler, to be able to really understand what it is living to principles versus rules. It helpse to be experienced in looking to how to partner with your children to help them to meet their goals and needs and wants when coming up against new and novel problems or hurdles. It isn't that the other persons thoughts are right, it is that the other people may be more experienced at applying radical unschooling on a day to day basis and when it comes to living a life within the radical unschooling paradigm they will have a greater understanding of how to do that, or how to think about that. 

++++++++++++++++
>I have been watching this group for a while and never could understand why
>answers were always that the parent must be wrong about something and the
>child is ALWAYS right. It seems instead of offering some real advice you
>always say well you must have done something wrong. Well! How do you fix
>that?? Why is that human's (the child) thoughts and ideas superior to the
>other human's?
++++++++++++++++

I can't change another human. I have absolutely no ability to make someone else think and be as I may want them to think and be. If I am struggling with something that Simon or Linnaea are doing, and my asking them to stop or to change hasn't worked, I have very little recourse outside of punitive approaches to make them stop or change. Looking to change my perspective on what it is that they are doing is the only real power I have. Or looking to change my approach to them. 
Take, for example, your son's glasses. How can you make him wear them? You can't, at least not without changing much of his life and not without making it so that he hates his glasses and strives to lose them or break them as quickly and frequently as he can. But you can look for other solutions or change your perspective on how much he needs glasses right now. It isn't that you are wrong to want him to not have a lazy eye, it is that you can't control another person enough to make them take the doctor's preventative methods for your son's possible lazy eye. In those situations people on this list often try and do different sorts of brainstorming, thus the suggestions of being a pirate with a patch or video games or having your son be actively involved in looking for ways to take care of his eyes. None of those things are rules. You don't have to play pirates. You don't have to play video games. You don't have to talk to the doctor with your son to see
what range of options are available and to see which ones would be easiest to implement. What those suggestions may do is help you to see other options, or jumpstart your own thinking about how you could approach the difficulty of your son's potential to have a lazy eye. Not right or wrong thinking, but bigger thinking. 

+++++++++++++++++
>I have always used the term unschooling to describe our family, but I was
>beginning to question it when I read all this other stuff that has nothing
>to do with unschooling or schooling.
+++++++++++++++++

This list is about radical unschooling. The list description reads: 

"A list designed for those new to the philosophy of whole-life (or "radical") unschooling. Ask experienced whole-life unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how it works in real families, across all aspects of life.
 
"If you're familiar with radical unschooling in theory, but unsure of how to begin or wondering how living without chores, bedtimes or imposed limits on electronics and food really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss, question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!
"Whole life/radical unschooling goes well beyond ideas of “teachable moments” and “the world as your classroom” to a view of learning as an inherent part of life itself. If you aren’t familiar with radical unschooling, you’ll find a wealth of basic information here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

"Newcomers to the philosophy of radical unschooling are encouraged to ask questions, but please take some time to read and get a "feel" for the list before posting. Whole life unschooling goes so far beyond academics that it involves a whole different approach to family relationships. Everything you think you know is about to be questioned."

It may be that you are thinking only about unschooling, more about the academic side of an education? Often what is discussed on this list is more about lifestyle than it is about academics. 

+++++++++++++++++++
>We allow our kids to learn in whatever
>way they want for the day. They don't really know what school is. They get
>up on their own at whatever time they choose and go from there. I am always
>available to help them further their learning in whatever way they desire. I
>do not see how teaching some basic ideas of "not a good idea" or "this is
>not working with everyone right now" is harmful. In fact I don't see how it
>is not done. I have given you main responders a chance to show me. Mostly
>what I'm hearing is a lack of trust in the adult and what the adult is
>feeling or thinking at all times. Are we teaching our children that we are
>born perfect, but by the time you are an adult you will need to yield to
>your children every time it interferes with your thoughts??
++++++++++++++++++++

Teaching is problematic in that expects learning to occur. I haven't taught Simon or Linnaea basic ideas of "not a good idea", but I've lived that with them. I've help them to explore lots of ideas and things to do and been their safety net when things didn't work out the way they wanted it to. At 14 and 12 they are pretty good judges of not a good idea and they are certainly good judges of what works for them and what they want. By being with them, by helping them to achieve what they wanted, by helping them to explore the world on their own terms they've learned a huge amount about what they enjoy and what they want and what works and what doesn't. Far more than I remember knowing at 14 and 12. They are also really willing to listen to me. If I say something may not be a good idea they are willing to factor that in to their decision, because I've been trustworthy in the past. I've not told them to not a good idea lightly. It isn't teaching so much as
it is living. It isn't that my thoughts aren't valid, but who I am is not who they are, which is hard sometimes to remember, so my feelings are not always applicable. 

I like the image of yielding, but maybe to you it has a negative connotation, but to me it speaks of willow trees bending in the wind in long ago fairy tales of old with rigid oak trees versus young and pliable willow trees. Linnaea teased me the other day for yielding to her. I had a rice bag that I'd heated up in the microwave and I was going to sit on the couch and read a book and cuddle up with the rice bag, but she grabbed for it and I gave it to her and she teased me for being so accommodating, so yielding. Said I was too kind. It was sweet. I like giving to her. I like giving to Simon. Yielding hasn't made me not myself, it just meant that I wasn't so warm on the couch in that moment. And that my daughter and I got to play. Actually, she gave me the rice bag back a moment after I gave it to her, and then came over and cuddle with me and we talked. So, what it meant was that I got to be with her instead of with a book. That was more than a fair
exchange. 

++++++++++++
>I really think you should change your name from unschoolers to something
>that has nothing to do with school. I don't think I will call myself and
>unschooler anymore. I can't practice these principles and how to implement
>them if no one can even explain them clearly. Anyone who would encourage
>their son to sit inside instead of enjoying this wonderful world outdoors is
>not a group I'm willing or wanting to be part of.
++++++++++++++

Principles aren't rules. It seems you are struggling with that. http://sandradodd.com/principles/ has lots of thoughts about principles even some about principles versus rules that might help you to see what is being discussed. You don't implement principles, you embrace and live by them. You don't force your children to become principled in the same way that you've become. Instead you act the principle you've embraced. You are kind if you want to carry the principle of kindness at your bosom. By being kind, by infusing your life and your behaviour with kindness you children will learn what it is to be treated kindly and they may choose to be kind themselves. 

Sandra has this at the http I posted above :

A mom newer to unschooling asked how she should communicate principles to her children. I responded, "You don't communicate the principles to a child. You make your own decisions based on those."

There was a bit of confusion, and Joyce Fetteroll clarified:

Don't try to teach principles. Use them as tools. Use them as tools to help you make the choices that turn you in the direction you want to go. Use them as tools to help your kids meet their needs.

That is, if one of the principles you value is kindness, you be kind. Insert yourself when the atmosphere in the home is not kind. (Even better is to be there to redirect to keep it from devolving to unkindness) Help them explore solutions that are in keeping with your principles.

I hadn't thought of this before but principles are like language. You don't teach your kids how to speak. Language is a tool that you use to communicate. So you speak to kids. And as a side effect, they pick up language. But to learn language, they need to be immersed in it. Language needs to be something they find useful for their own needs. Otherwise, why would they use it?

Joyce (Always Learning list, September 2011)

+++++++++++++++
>Please remove me.
+++++++++++++++

You can change your account settings at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/.  

Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:37 AM, Schuyler wrote:

> saying someone is watching television 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, is an
> overestimation. It is a statment that is given by a parent who is frustrated and
> emotional and isn't really thinking about what they are saying

Pam Sorooshian said a few months back that for some people emotion is more important than facts.

So the person is trying to convey the emotion of the situation through their words. Reporting factually of 6 hours of TV watching doesn't convey the fullness of the situation. So the words are given more emotional impact to give a more "accurate" picture.

People who write emotionally, who have a hard time being objective, will have a harder time on the list. Despite the seeming all encompassing nature of the list title, it's really aimed at a particular niche audience that does want to be objective. More emotional types of people tend to find the advice written to *other* people more helpful because then they can feel more detached. Some people who are quite emotional will have a problem even with that.

The most frequent posters are part of that niche audience that had it's beginnings 20 years ago. We offer freely the same type of advice we found helpful. If others find it helpful, cool! :-) But it definitely won't be everyone's cup of tea. It doesn't try to be.

It's unfortunate the "Unschooling Basics" name suggests its broader than it is. But what are you modeling for your children if you don't dig further into something to find out more before you try it? ;-) The list *is* well described in the list description at the website:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

By the "title is all you need to know what something is" logic people should get upset at McDonalds for not serving haggis ;-) (Though apparently some McDonalds in Scotland do serve a Scottish soft drink called Irn-Bru. But, even in Scotland, not haggis.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

odiniella

--- In [email protected], Lisa Dixon <lddixon@...>
wrote:
> I have been watching this group for a while and never could understand
why
> answers were always that the parent must be wrong about something and
the
> child is ALWAYS right. It seems instead of offering some real advice
you
> always say well you must have done something wrong. Well! How do you
fix
> that?? Why is that human's (the child) thoughts and ideas superior to
the
> other human's?
>

The way I see it, there comes a point when every parent realizes the
extent of their control over their child is limited to advice and
influence. We in America tend to try and stretch that point out as long
as possible, using conventional operant conditioning to train a child to
be obedient, with the genuine belief this is for the child's own good.
Eventually we can't condition our children. We can't punish them enough,
we can't bribe them enough to do what we want. Traditional parents bank
on the idea that by this time the child will be conditioned to behaving
in such a way the parent would approve (read, the parent's emotions will
not be rocked when child is out of sight).

Radical unschooling offers an alternative. By becoming a trusted mentor
to the child, the parent respects and honors the child's innate autonomy
while protecting the child's innate vulnerability. As the child
matures, that vulnerability is reduced as the child's autonomy reflects
critical thinking and increasing self-sufficiency.

When a child is 15, a parent can't make him wear glasses except through
coercion and manipulation of resources (punishments and rewards). We
don't think we're doing this to our 5 year olds because we think that's
just good old-fashioned parenting, but coercion and manipulation it is.
Instead of demanding (and forcing) the child to wear glasses, one day
the parent is going to have to realize the child does have control.
It's more respectful and effective to start this process of solving the
problem through mutual respect sooner rather than later.

One of the tenets of unschooling (if that exists), in my mind anyway, is
to strive to identify the root problem and help the child explore and
execute solutions that are effective, do not create other problems, and
are socially acceptable. Everything from refusing to wear eye glasses
to driving under the influence of alcohol is a solution to a problem,
solutions that create more problems, solutions that require more
brainstorming, not more coercion.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Lisa Dixon <lddixon@...> wrote:
>> This advice to always doubt the the information presented by the group
> member asking the question is not helpful.

One of the frustrating things about this kind of problem solving is that it very often involves taking several steps backwards. Conventional rule-based parenting advice and problem solving is very Re-active - you start from a problem and look for ways to fix it. The trouble is, that sets you up for problems which are "last straws" - and then fixing the last straw doesn't get you anywhere. The problem remains.

So when someone comes to a list like this with a problem, and the answer involves pulling the scenario apart to look for what's leading up to the last straw, that can be frustrating and feel dismissive, for sure, until you get used to approaching things from another angle. To make things even more personally threatening, part of the process involves pulling apart your own analysis to some extent so that you can get a sense of where you're going on auto-pilot, where you're operating on old tapes of "what children should learn/know/do", where you're letting parental worries jerk your chain, and where you're mis-communicating. And its often easier to see those things in other people - that's why the list can seem very friendly until You're the one who posts and then... wow, why is everyone picking on me? (And along those same lines, some of us who do a lot of writing on the list use other people's questions as a way to see our Own issues - I'm terrible at asking questions, for instance, but gosh I get a lot of insight out of others' questions - so thanks for asking!!!)

>>> I have been watching this group for a while and never could understand why
> answers were always that the parent must be wrong about something and the
> child is ALWAYS right.

Conventional parenting wisdom frames adults and children as adversaries. In order to create an environment in which learning flows joyfully, it helps to become your child's ally. To do that, it helps to step back from the whole questions of whether the child is right or the parent is right. Your child is doing his or her best with the resources he or she has in the moment - and so are you! But that doesn't mean whatever you're doing is optimal and, well, you're the one writing in! Your child doesn't have a voice, so some people here will try and provide that voice, fill in the child's perspective - because seeing another person's perspective helps build relationships and that helps learning flow more joyfully. And, since all we have is your "voice" in the form of words, some people will go through your words and offer you alternative ways to approach the situation, stepping back and looking for root causes, rather than last straws.

>>doing insanely crazy
> things (like talking your kids into playing video games and sitting more....,
> instead of going outside and doing what he loves)
****************

This is a really good example of the gap between being and adversary - even a "gentle" adversary and an ally. People on this list have said "offer alternatives" and it's being read as "talk the child into doing something". Step back and see a different angle. Offer the way you'd offer to a friend - hey , want to do this with me? I got something I think you'll enjoy. This is a really common snag when parents are new to unschooling, so I'm glad it was brought up. A whole lot of the advice on this list will sound Almost familiar, but just enough off to seem really wacked out. Many of us have gone through the "these people are totally crazy" stage - I did! I think I even stormed off a list in a huff a time or two, back in the day. I think it's part of the learning process for some people, which is why I don't mind threads like this (unless they get insanely long, but those are beneficial in other ways, lots of people get to do the "writing/explaining" part of their learning process, which is good, too).


This process of stepping back to an earlier stage in the process is helpful With your kids, too. A lot of times, parents can see a pretty good solution fairly quickly - and smart, strong willed moms are often really good at that! But that cuts kids out of the problem solving process - so they feel grumpy and disenfranchised. They Want to learn to make decisions and don't appreciate being kept out of the loop. So it can really help, when a child is unhappy about a decision, to do what we do here on the list, in a way - step back to an earlier part of your own thinking process, ditch some of your assumptions, and work through things with your kid. They may come up with Exactly the same solution you did, but they'll feel better about it because they've thought it through rather than having it dumped in their laps.

It took me awhile to get the hang of that - especially since I started when my daughter was little and she's not a talker. So it would take Weeks to work some things out, when I could see a perfectly good way of handling things. That sounds bonkers, from a conventional standpoint, but compared to doing things my way and having my kid resist my fantastic solution for weeks or longer... it's no worse. The work is done up front, if you will, to make issues into non-issues, rather than reacting to issues once they're established. And doing more of the work up front, parenting pro-actively rather than re-actively, is much, much less stressful! I didn't start out unschooling and kind of fumbled my way in that direction with Ray, so I've got a good basis of comparison. I'd much rather sit on my ego and be my kids' ally than allow my scintillating prowess free-reign and argue every step of the way ;)

---Meredith