chesskuhrazy

Hello everyone, I am glad to have found this group!!! I am hoping to get some good advice cause right now, I am SOOO desperate!! I feel like I am running out of time! I will try to make this as short as possible. My son is 17 and his last year of schooling in a public school was 5th grade, we have done some work here and there up until 9th, also, he has done some schooling at a local church since 9th grade which has included two years of Art, Physical science, Biology, and this year Chemistry (the Chemistry has been VERY hard and I'm thinking it may be because he is behind in math) the thing is he is "suddenly" freaking out and saying he wants to graduate high school and that he is waaay behind, and is basically "screwed" these were his exact words. I don't know where this came from suddenly, he won't tell me why but I think it has a lot to do with some of his cousins and some friends who are in public school.

I picked him up from a public schooled friends house the other day who is two years younger than him doing work above his grade level, so we are on our way home from this kids house and my son seems quiet depressed, I finally got it out of him that he is depressed because he is soo "behind" or at least he feels this way. I do plan on testing him soon, but I am not sure what to do if he is behind, thinking we don't have time to catch up, or if I should get a tutor. I hate myself as a mother because I have never really explained our relaxed schooling or unschooling to my son and now he is "comparing" himself to his friends and other kids around him, also my son has ADD and a low self esteem already. For the last four years my health has been terrible which is some of the reasons we chose unschooling or a more relaxed schooling. I'm not sure if we should say unschooling since he has been schooled but most of it has been from the local church that I mentioned.

My son wants to be a marine Biologist, and I am not sure if he'll change his mind about that or not cause we live in the mountains of NC and he would definitely have to move to have a career like that, and he is too close to us I think to want to do that,I'm not sure I need to talk to him some more about that, I just want whatever makes him happy. He also wants to maybe start out as a vet tech, at a local community college. Right now I am just TERRIFED, I feel like we are out of time, and wonder if I have done the wrong thing all of these years by unschooling! HELP! Does any of of ever feel this way? :( What do people do when their 17 yr olds (almost 18) suddenly want to be schooled and they only have a yr and a half to do it! I say year and a half because my son would like to get his high school diploma next yr, before or maybe close to his 19th birthday. He is thinking time is creeping up on him.


I also think a lot of this "sudden-ness" is coming from his cousin, who lives Part-time next door to us. His cousin is also a male, who is one week older, and I think my son is doing a lot of comparing, plus I have noo clue what this kid is putting in my kids head!! This kid unfortunately has a lot of influence on my son, I sometimes wished we never lived beside them. My family next door is also VERY into their kids being schooled and they go to public school.Oh, and did I also mention I have never kept up with a transcript? I feel SO lost! I also doesn't help that I have ADD myself!

Sooo pretty much my question is: What do parents do when their kids want a high school diploma (son does not want a GED) and also want to go to college (not sure yet about the Marine Biology thing)what do you do about credits? I believe in my state of NC they require credit hours (I think it's 120) and I have never kept up with that. Is it too late, should I start schooling now? Should we just go by wat he learns and forget about credit hours? Although that is what my state requires? Should I check into a community college? My son is also behind in his Language arts and his math, he is like two years behind in math, (should I get a tutor?) so I am not sure about if a community college would accept him based on that? His math level is beginning Algebra. I just don't know what to do I have cried myself to sleep every night for that last two nights. It wouldn't be so bad if my son didn't feel the way he does, but he is scared too. ANY advice? I would SOOO appreciate it!!!


TJ

April Morris

As with most things in life....there isn't any one right answer. One things
is for sure though...no on can undo the past. So really, wondering if you
did the "right" thing or not doesn't matter. What matters is how to go from
where you are now. And the reality is, lots of kids at 17 feel what your
son is feeling, regardless of how they were schooled. Lots of kids get to
his age going through public schools, private schools, homeschooled...and
feel overwhelmed at how to get from 'here' to 'there'. So on that count,
take a deep breath, relax and realize the feelings and fears are not
uncommon. As far as where to go...there are a lot of options...and I'm sure
you will hear them, so I will just share what has worked in our family.
From my experience, I would not worry a single little bit about a
highschool diploma. If he is interested in college, go to the local
community college and take their placement tests. His results will probably
surprise him. Community colleges usually don't require a diploma and are
usually equipped to handle young people who are "behind" in some areas. In
our area, you can test into algebra, pre-algebra, pre-pre algebra or even
remedial math. There are a lot of kids who graduate with a diploma that
test into remedial math. A diploma doesn't mean a kid is ready for college.
And not having one doesn't mean they are not ready. Getting an associates
degree makes a high school diploma unnecessary. My 20 year old always
unschooled son started with pre algebra and had to take comp 1 twice is now
taking math classes I can't pronounce and is taking engineering physics. He
will be transferring to University of Michigan within the year. He has
talked with advisers at UofM and they could care less if he has a high
school diploma. All they are interested in is his Associates degree and his
grade point average. And his clubs. and his job experience. All of it makes
him a good fit for U of M. Karl did not read until he was 13. He never took
a math class. Never used a math curriculum. He never wrote a paper. He
never did a book report. He lived life and explored his interests. None of
it looked schooly. When he was ready for community college he jumped in at
16 and loved it. He didn't need to do high school first. It has taken him
a little longer perhaps, but he wasn't in a hurry. He had to take comp 1
twice (failed it the first time, aced it the second). He started off at a
lower math class and a lower chemistry class (full of kids with high school
diplomas). But he was ready and eager and loved it. My current 16 year old
son is also taking a class at the community college without any problem. My
girls took classes there, too. They didn't enjoy it and have found jobs
that suit them better than college did. Also fine choices.

So my bottom line is, skip the whole highschool thing and take advantage of
what community college has to offer. If he is wanting to work towards a
career goal, he'll be ready and do fine.

If anyone is interested, I have an amusing story about my oldest daughter
and the results of her placement tests at Community College when she was
16....

~April
Mom to Kate-25, Lisa-22, Willis-22, Karl-20, & Ben-16.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://a2zhomeschool.com/reachhomeschool/about/
* Michigan Unschoolers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf the Grey



On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:35 AM, chesskuhrazy <chesskuhrazy@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello everyone, I am glad to have found this group!!! I am hoping to get
> some good advice cause right now, I am SOOO desperate!! I feel like I am
> running out of time! I will try to make this as short as possible. My son
> is 17 and his last year of schooling in a public school was 5th grade, we
> have done some work here and there up until 9th, also, he has done some
> schooling at a local church since 9th grade which has included two years of
> Art, Physical science, Biology, and this year Chemistry (the Chemistry has
> been VERY hard and I'm thinking it may be because he is behind in math) the
> thing is he is "suddenly" freaking out and saying he wants to graduate high
> school and that he is waaay behind, and is basically "screwed" these were
> his exact words. I don't know where this came from suddenly, he won't tell
> me why but I think it has a lot to do with some of his cousins and some
> friends who are in public school.
>
> I picked him up from a public schooled friends house the other day who is
> two years younger than him doing work above his grade level, so we are on
> our way home from this kids house and my son seems quiet depressed, I
> finally got it out of him that he is depressed because he is soo "behind"
> or at least he feels this way. I do plan on testing him soon, but I am not
> sure what to do if he is behind, thinking we don't have time to catch up,
> or if I should get a tutor. I hate myself as a mother because I have never
> really explained our relaxed schooling or unschooling to my son and now he
> is "comparing" himself to his friends and other kids around him, also my
> son has ADD and a low self esteem already. For the last four years my
> health has been terrible which is some of the reasons we chose unschooling
> or a more relaxed schooling. I'm not sure if we should say unschooling
> since he has been schooled but most of it has been from the local church
> that I mentioned.
>
> My son wants to be a marine Biologist, and I am not sure if he'll change
> his mind about that or not cause we live in the mountains of NC and he
> would definitely have to move to have a career like that, and he is too
> close to us I think to want to do that,I'm not sure I need to talk to him
> some more about that, I just want whatever makes him happy. He also wants
> to maybe start out as a vet tech, at a local community college. Right now I
> am just TERRIFED, I feel like we are out of time, and wonder if I have done
> the wrong thing all of these years by unschooling! HELP! Does any of of
> ever feel this way? :( What do people do when their 17 yr olds (almost 18)
> suddenly want to be schooled and they only have a yr and a half to do it! I
> say year and a half because my son would like to get his high school
> diploma next yr, before or maybe close to his 19th birthday. He is thinking
> time is creeping up on him.
>
> I also think a lot of this "sudden-ness" is coming from his cousin, who
> lives Part-time next door to us. His cousin is also a male, who is one week
> older, and I think my son is doing a lot of comparing, plus I have noo clue
> what this kid is putting in my kids head!! This kid unfortunately has a lot
> of influence on my son, I sometimes wished we never lived beside them. My
> family next door is also VERY into their kids being schooled and they go to
> public school.Oh, and did I also mention I have never kept up with a
> transcript? I feel SO lost! I also doesn't help that I have ADD myself!
>
> Sooo pretty much my question is: What do parents do when their kids want a
> high school diploma (son does not want a GED) and also want to go to
> college (not sure yet about the Marine Biology thing)what do you do about
> credits? I believe in my state of NC they require credit hours (I think
> it's 120) and I have never kept up with that. Is it too late, should I
> start schooling now? Should we just go by wat he learns and forget about
> credit hours? Although that is what my state requires? Should I check into
> a community college? My son is also behind in his Language arts and his
> math, he is like two years behind in math, (should I get a tutor?) so I am
> not sure about if a community college would accept him based on that? His
> math level is beginning Algebra. I just don't know what to do I have cried
> myself to sleep every night for that last two nights. It wouldn't be so bad
> if my son didn't feel the way he does, but he is scared too. ANY advice? I
> would SOOO appreciate it!!!
>
> TJ
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"chesskuhrazy" <chesskuhrazy@...> wrote:
> He also wants to maybe start out as a vet tech, at a local community college.
******************

So look into that. Find out what coures he needs to take to start out and find out what he needs to get into them. It may be all he needs is the cost of the class and books! Communtiy colleges are great like that.

Help him get moving in the direction he wants to go, rather than getting bogged down fussing over what everyone else is doing. Community colleges have all sorts of "remedial" classes - because people go through all the hassle of school and still need things like that. Reassure your son on that score - he didn't have to suffer through high school like all the other kids in his classes, he got to skip ahead ;)

If he likes animals and biology, he might want to look for jobs and volunteer oportunities which let him be around animals. Marine biology doesn't require an ocean! There are freshwater marine biologists lurking in the hills of NC - at least, there are in the hills of TN, where I live. Check with local extension societies, with the Parks department, and with the... oh what's it called... fishing and wildlife management or something. Does he fish? Canoe? He could take a canoeing class. He could look for work giving fishing tours. Marine biology isn't just ships and the sea, he can start right now, right where he is. And if he wants to go to sea later, it will still be there.

Reassure your guy that work looks better on college aplications than same-old-same-old classes and grades. Real work in your field makes professors jump up and down with glee that they're getting someone who's actually motivated.

>>I am just TERRIFED, I feel like we are out of time

I have an 18yo who is currently living at home (sort of, we have a "hunting cabin" on our land and he lives there, but its just a bedroom) learning blacksmithing and woodworking. He's not interested in college at this point, he's interested in becoming a serious artisan so we're helping him do that. It's not the usual "kid goes away for four years" lifestyle, its different. Unschoolers often go by a different route and that's okay. Maybe at some point Ray will decide to take some classes at a local community college, or maybe he'll go to the Appalachian Center for Crafts and get an art degree. Maybe not. Right now, he's selling wood carvings and blacksmithery as fast as he can turn the stuff out (not that he's working a 40hr week, but still) making new friends, going to events and festivals to sell his wares and generally having a good time living his life.

Help your guy have a good time living his life.

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

First, breathe. There's no 'deadline' on anything. My hubby (public schooled to high school grad) hated school and didn't start college until he was 27 when he found something that he really wanted to do and college had the resources conveniently collected for him to do it. Just saying that there's no 'rule' that says an 18 yr old HAS TO start college right away (or ever). What are the requirements for marine biologists? What can he do RIGHT NOW toward that? Get a scuba certification? Learn to operate small water craft? Volunteer at an aquarium in your neck of the woods? Also, I had a college roomie who graduated from a private school with top grades - took remedial math THREE times and then was asked not to return because her grades were so low. Obviously, just getting through an institutional school is no guarantee that one is capable of college level work AND points out that remedial classes exist in ALL colleges simply because a good chunk of public schooled kids need them.

--Deb R

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Hi TJ, and welcome! I, too, am a newbie. It's only been a year since pulling my son (then in 7th grade) out of public school. We spent several months working with an independent study/charter school in our local school district, but we quickly discovered that it wasn't the program for us (all the 'school' without any of the fun of friends...yuck!). I finally got up the nerve to fill out the paperwork to set up my own private school, and now have been happily unschooling (detoxing) since November 16th. I picked a heck of an age to start; it seems that, at 14, Matt has lost much of his innate love of learning--or at least, he doesn't have that inherent interest in EVERYTHING that little kids seem to possess in abundance. Anyway, we're muddling along, and with the help of other unschoolers, we'll find our way.

You've gotten such good advice already; I don't have much to add, except that perhaps both you and your son need a little perspective. I, too, am ADHD, and I'm no stranger to that horrible feeling that everyone is passing you by. If you can get your son to first take a breath, then to take a good look around: is he REALLY that far behind his peers? I doubt it...and it's not a race, anyway. He's 17...how far behind could he possibly be?? If he can see the benefit of this unrestricted time he has the benefit of having, he might be inclined to put it to good use: he could be reading/studying marine biology 24 hours a day! Depending on where you live, he could volunteer at an aquatic center or spend his days at the tidepools. He could conduct research and write his findings to submit to a journal. Instead of panicking (which I do very well myself), he needs to THINK. As they say, try thinking OUTSIDE of the box (ADHDers can often do this particularly well). Realizing the many ways public school has indoctrinated him would help immensely, too: artificial time constructs, arbitrary (and artificial) goals, intentional disruption of attention, standardization of kids, etc. Have you done your own research? Try searching YouTube for lectures by Sam Blumenfeld, Charlotte Iserbyt, and John Taylor Gatto, and check out the websites of Sandra Dodd, John Holt, and Laurie Couture (sp?) for a good start. Other good sites are http://edu-lu-tion.com/home and http://johnnybtruant.com/ Educating yourself will go far, I promise you.

A final thought: maybe your son needs a little nudge in his rebellion-bone...encourage him to rethink the whole system and to question everything! We've been lied to, and that makes ME rebellious...and I'm an old lady (well, middle aged, anyway)! We're living in such remarkable times and there is SOOO much to do and learn...does he REALLY have time for school?!

Good luck, and I look forward to hearing more from you.

--Susan L.

Bun

Blakes Boles has spoken at unschooling conferences and helps teens and young adults think outside the box with regard to achieving what they would like - with or without college.

There is a book you might be interested in checking out called, "College Without High School" by Blake Boles. http://collegewithouthighschool.com/

Here is another link to his website which has more college (or Zero Tuition College) info and links. http://www.blakeboles.com/

Laurie

chesskuhrazy

April, THANK YOU for your very kind and helpful response!! I REALLY appreciate it, it helped me feel MUCH BETTER! :) I apologize for just now responding my computer has been out and it has been so hard being without a computer these past few day's, I have wanted so bad to see these reply's, just got the computer up and going about an hour ago. I LOVE that your children have excelled although they have had no schooling before college that is wonderful!!

You are right about a lot of kid's feeling that way at the age of 17, I never really thought of it that way though. I just wished he weren't so depressed about it, and feeling like a failure. I think the BIGGEST problem he is having is the comparison thing, he won't admit to it, but he is looking at what everyone else is doing. Especially the week older than him cousin who lives part-time next door. I really wish my son could find friends who had NOTHING to do with schooling or were at least very relaxed homeschoolers! lol I wish we all had our own little town! lol Like yesterday for example, he comes home from a Chemistry class and tell's me that his semester grade is a 69, but that the teacher said it could be raised if he brought in some work that had not been turned in ( which is something I am just now hearing about we are both very disorganized add'ers'!)so then he tell's me what a few other classmates grades were, and his being the lowest of those kids. He also say's most everyone raises their hands and answers questions that he doesn't. I don't know if this has to do with him being behind in math, or because he is not taught the chemistry at home. When I signed up for the class I "thought" this teacher was going to be doing most of the teaching.


I swear sometimes I wished I never even put him in that Chemistry class, especially since he is barely doing Algebra. What was I thinking?!! When he does have a chemistry test at home to take back, I do let him take the test open book, I am not sure if the teacher is allowing that or not, my son did say she said they could open it for the periodical chart, other than that he hasn't given me a straight answer whether she allows it or not. I never took Chemistry in high school (public school which I HATED and am scarred from to this day!) and I learned today that my son said his teacher was pretty much a tutor because she has said that the parents were the teacher's, she is just there like as a tutor...these were her words to the class. So if that's the case,I have NO clue, HOW he is gonna learn chemistry! I don't know it neither does my husband. Right now I am really not sure if he even need's it for what his career is gonna be, heck I don't think he even know's yet what he want's to pursue, but he is thinking something to study animals. So that is another thing that I am thinking about and am not sure if I should do is getting a tutor for Chemistry? And or a tutor for Math and English.


The main reason I am thinking of a tutor is because the "placement test" of the local community college. I am wondering if they would even let him in because of it being so low. I know I shouldn't be so negative, it may be higher than I think, but to be honest, I have given little placement tests or exams at home and he flunks most of them, so I am not so sure. I don't know what they consider low, and right now, I just don't know if I could stand seeing him anymore depressed than he is right now. He is pretty much calling himself a failure, (his exact words) and it hurts so much to see this. Today he e-mailed that Chemistry teacher about the missing assignment's and he had me read the e-mail before it was even sent, it was really sad all the mistakes he had, it made me wanna cry. I didn't say anything about it upsetting me though, I just offered some help. It was thing's like capitalization, punctuation, he wasn't even sure where periods should go, to start and end a sentence,he had some spelling mistakes but not as bad as the punctuation mistakes. I would say he is still on a 7th grade level when it comes to English. So how would a community college look at that? Would they accept him? Would I be turned in to DSS for educational neglect?...I am "sorta" kidding about this one! lol I am even a bit afraid of a tutor reporting me, especially if they tutor him in English. In math he is probably on an 8th grade level at least I "think" that it when Algebra is started (which is what he is doing....and having a hard time in)

I am just REALLY AFRAID about what steps I should take next. I do feel some what better knowing that college can be achieved without high school, but I keep beating myself up by thinking "how?" Do community colleges or Junior colleges really teach classes on a lower grade such as middle school subjects or early high school? Should i get him a tutor to help him get caught up, just so he can take the placement test? Would my son need some kind of a transcript? I know I can call about the transcript thing, but the placement part worries me the most, I don't wanna sound crazy asking them if they would accept my son over the phone if he were only at a middle school level. And if they do need a transcript, how on Earth do I document one when he has barely done any work to show for it, especially the math and English part. I sometimes think that maybe these unschooler's I have read about online have made it to college were just so "gifted" it really didn't matter. I wished that someone would chime in to tell me they had a child who had ADD like my son or another kind of learning disability and made it to college and beyond.I ordered the book College without high school and can't wait to get it!! I am also thinking about the book The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn.


April, I would LOVE to hear/read your story about your daughter's placement test! :)THANKS AGAIN you're a sweetheart!!,and I'm sorry for MANY more question'.


TJ





--- In [email protected], April Morris <klkb624@...> wrote:
>
> As with most things in life....there isn't any one right answer. One things
> is for sure though...no on can undo the past. So really, wondering if you
> did the "right" thing or not doesn't matter. What matters is how to go from
> where you are now. And the reality is, lots of kids at 17 feel what your
> son is feeling, regardless of how they were schooled. Lots of kids get to
> his age going through public schools, private schools, homeschooled...and
> feel overwhelmed at how to get from 'here' to 'there'. So on that count,
> take a deep breath, relax and realize the feelings and fears are not
> uncommon. As far as where to go...there are a lot of options...and I'm sure
> you will hear them, so I will just share what has worked in our family.
> From my experience, I would not worry a single little bit about a
> highschool diploma. If he is interested in college, go to the local
> community college and take their placement tests. His results will probably
> surprise him. Community colleges usually don't require a diploma and are
> usually equipped to handle young people who are "behind" in some areas. In
> our area, you can test into algebra, pre-algebra, pre-pre algebra or even
> remedial math. There are a lot of kids who graduate with a diploma that
> test into remedial math. A diploma doesn't mean a kid is ready for college.
> And not having one doesn't mean they are not ready. Getting an associates
> degree makes a high school diploma unnecessary. My 20 year old always
> unschooled son started with pre algebra and had to take comp 1 twice is now
> taking math classes I can't pronounce and is taking engineering physics. He
> will be transferring to University of Michigan within the year. He has
> talked with advisers at UofM and they could care less if he has a high
> school diploma. All they are interested in is his Associates degree and his
> grade point average. And his clubs. and his job experience. All of it makes
> him a good fit for U of M. Karl did not read until he was 13. He never took
> a math class. Never used a math curriculum. He never wrote a paper. He
> never did a book report. He lived life and explored his interests. None of
> it looked schooly. When he was ready for community college he jumped in at
> 16 and loved it. He didn't need to do high school first. It has taken him
> a little longer perhaps, but he wasn't in a hurry. He had to take comp 1
> twice (failed it the first time, aced it the second). He started off at a
> lower math class and a lower chemistry class (full of kids with high school
> diplomas). But he was ready and eager and loved it. My current 16 year old
> son is also taking a class at the community college without any problem. My
> girls took classes there, too. They didn't enjoy it and have found jobs
> that suit them better than college did. Also fine choices.
>
> So my bottom line is, skip the whole highschool thing and take advantage of
> what community college has to offer. If he is wanting to work towards a
> career goal, he'll be ready and do fine.
>
> If anyone is interested, I have an amusing story about my oldest daughter
> and the results of her placement tests at Community College when she was
> 16....
>
> ~April
> Mom to Kate-25, Lisa-22, Willis-22, Karl-20, & Ben-16.
> *REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
> http://a2zhomeschool.com/reachhomeschool/about/
> * Michigan Unschoolers
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
> "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
> Gandalf the Grey
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:35 AM, chesskuhrazy <chesskuhrazy@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone, I am glad to have found this group!!! I am hoping to get
> > some good advice cause right now, I am SOOO desperate!! I feel like I am
> > running out of time! I will try to make this as short as possible. My son
> > is 17 and his last year of schooling in a public school was 5th grade, we
> > have done some work here and there up until 9th, also, he has done some
> > schooling at a local church since 9th grade which has included two years of
> > Art, Physical science, Biology, and this year Chemistry (the Chemistry has
> > been VERY hard and I'm thinking it may be because he is behind in math) the
> > thing is he is "suddenly" freaking out and saying he wants to graduate high
> > school and that he is waaay behind, and is basically "screwed" these were
> > his exact words. I don't know where this came from suddenly, he won't tell
> > me why but I think it has a lot to do with some of his cousins and some
> > friends who are in public school.
> >
> > I picked him up from a public schooled friends house the other day who is
> > two years younger than him doing work above his grade level, so we are on
> > our way home from this kids house and my son seems quiet depressed, I
> > finally got it out of him that he is depressed because he is soo "behind"
> > or at least he feels this way. I do plan on testing him soon, but I am not
> > sure what to do if he is behind, thinking we don't have time to catch up,
> > or if I should get a tutor. I hate myself as a mother because I have never
> > really explained our relaxed schooling or unschooling to my son and now he
> > is "comparing" himself to his friends and other kids around him, also my
> > son has ADD and a low self esteem already. For the last four years my
> > health has been terrible which is some of the reasons we chose unschooling
> > or a more relaxed schooling. I'm not sure if we should say unschooling
> > since he has been schooled but most of it has been from the local church
> > that I mentioned.
> >
> > My son wants to be a marine Biologist, and I am not sure if he'll change
> > his mind about that or not cause we live in the mountains of NC and he
> > would definitely have to move to have a career like that, and he is too
> > close to us I think to want to do that,I'm not sure I need to talk to him
> > some more about that, I just want whatever makes him happy. He also wants
> > to maybe start out as a vet tech, at a local community college. Right now I
> > am just TERRIFED, I feel like we are out of time, and wonder if I have done
> > the wrong thing all of these years by unschooling! HELP! Does any of of
> > ever feel this way? :( What do people do when their 17 yr olds (almost 18)
> > suddenly want to be schooled and they only have a yr and a half to do it! I
> > say year and a half because my son would like to get his high school
> > diploma next yr, before or maybe close to his 19th birthday. He is thinking
> > time is creeping up on him.
> >
> > I also think a lot of this "sudden-ness" is coming from his cousin, who
> > lives Part-time next door to us. His cousin is also a male, who is one week
> > older, and I think my son is doing a lot of comparing, plus I have noo clue
> > what this kid is putting in my kids head!! This kid unfortunately has a lot
> > of influence on my son, I sometimes wished we never lived beside them. My
> > family next door is also VERY into their kids being schooled and they go to
> > public school.Oh, and did I also mention I have never kept up with a
> > transcript? I feel SO lost! I also doesn't help that I have ADD myself!
> >
> > Sooo pretty much my question is: What do parents do when their kids want a
> > high school diploma (son does not want a GED) and also want to go to
> > college (not sure yet about the Marine Biology thing)what do you do about
> > credits? I believe in my state of NC they require credit hours (I think
> > it's 120) and I have never kept up with that. Is it too late, should I
> > start schooling now? Should we just go by wat he learns and forget about
> > credit hours? Although that is what my state requires? Should I check into
> > a community college? My son is also behind in his Language arts and his
> > math, he is like two years behind in math, (should I get a tutor?) so I am
> > not sure about if a community college would accept him based on that? His
> > math level is beginning Algebra. I just don't know what to do I have cried
> > myself to sleep every night for that last two nights. It wouldn't be so bad
> > if my son didn't feel the way he does, but he is scared too. ANY advice? I
> > would SOOO appreciate it!!!
> >
> > TJ
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Schuyler

>I swear sometimes I wished I never even put him in that Chemistry class, especially since he is barely doing Algebra.<

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So take him out. Take him out of both of the classes and hang out, find other families who are exploring education as a life well lived instead of as a series of tick boxes. You are stuck, it seems, with the idea that he needs to achieve on a scholastic level instead of engaging with life in a meaningful way for himself.


I've been reading Deb Lewis today: http://sandradodd.com/deblewis/culturalideas is one essay that she wrote for the now defunct e-zine Connections. Within it she quotes John Holt on the fascism of defining what someone else should learn, should be interested in, should value:

"Young people should have the right to control and direct their own
learning, that is, to decide what they want to learn, and when, where,
how, how much, how fast, and with what help they want to learn it. To be
still more specific, I want them to have the right to decide if, when,
how much, and by whom they want to be taught and the right to decide
whether they want to learn in a school and if so which one and for how
much of the time.

"No human right, except the right to life itself, is more fundamental
than this. A person's freedom of learning is part of his freedom of
thought, even more basic than his freedom of speech. If we take FROM
someone his right to decide what he will be curious about, we destroy
his freedom of thought. We say, in effect, you must think not about what interests and concerns you, but about what interests and concerns us.


"We might call this the right of curiosity, the right to ask whatever
questions are most important to us. As adults, we assume that we have
the right to decide what does or does not interest us, what we will look into and what we will leave alone. We take this right largely for
granted, cannot imagine that it might be taken away from us. Indeed, as
far as I know, it has never been written into any body of law. Even the
writers of our Constitution did not mention it. They thought it was
enough to guarantee citizens the freedom of speech and the freedom to
spread their ideas as widely as they wished and could. It did not occur
to them that even the most tyrannical government would try to control
people's minds, what they thought and knew. That idea would come later,
under the benevolent guise of compulsory universal education."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>HOW he is gonna learn chemistry!<
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How did you learn chemistry? How did you figure out how to cook? How to clean? How to live a better life through chemistry? You state that you didn't take it in high school, but I assume that you don't avoid chemistry. I assume it is as basic a part of your everyday life as it is everyone else's. I bet you don't even acknowledge it, though. I bet you think you don't do any chemistry on a day to day basis. My guess is that you don't do any science with chemistry, but you do chemistry all the time. You eat, you salivate, you digest, you cook, you clean, you bathe, you breathe in oxygen and out carbon dioxide, you sweat, you experience sunshine and rain, you scab over wounds, you drink, you live within a chemical environment.


My guess is that they aren't doing science in his chemistry course either. At best they are replicating tried and true chemical experiments where the results will always be the same without some huge fundamtental change in the make up of the world, or experimenter error, which is really what is being tested. At worst they are just asking that they memorise something that is so completely outside of any experiential knowledge that it will forgotten almost as quickly as it was memorised. What are you hoping he will gain from such an experience? 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>HOW he is gonna learn chemistry!<
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
At this point he's probably only going to learn chemistry through guilt and through stress. Actually, he's probably not going to learn any chemistry in any meaningful way without a huge reassessment of learning. He's going to have to discover how learning is part and parcel of living. If he's truly interested in dicovering and exploring chemistry cooking is a really accessible kind of chemistry. If he isn't, if he's scarred and assured that chemistry is simply too hard for him, if he's grown more and more certain that he's just too stupid to fathom chemistry, I don't think there is any way to get around that, at least not for a long and healing time.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Right now I am really not sure if he even need's it for what his career is gonna be, heck I don't think he even know's yet what he
want's to pursue, but he is thinking something to study animals<
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Maybe he doesn't want to pursue anything right now. I'm not chasing down anything at the moment. I'm just learning as a process of living and being interested in what's around me and being around interesting things. If he were my 17 year old, I'd back the heck off. I'd spend the time that I might have previously spent harassing him, reading here: http://sandradodd.com/help and really exploring the concepts of unschooling. I'd look at my own learning and when it is at it's most fine. I'd work to make him comfortable with his life, to feel happy with what he's doing and to help him engage with what he is interested in rather then what someone else says he needs to know. I'd do that with as few words as possible and with lots of actions. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am also thinking about the book The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Get that and read it. And when you've read it put it somewhere so that your son can see it and maybe decide to read it. But think about the ideas yourself more than make your son think about them. And don't worry so much about college. It isn't going to go away. It will be there some other day, week, month, year if he becomes interested in it.


You really don't seem to have a clue about how learning happens and are so scared about your son's future that you can't even imagine what his now could be like. http://sandradodd.com/learning might help. It might not as it seems that all you are seeing is what your son isn't and can't do and not anything about what he is and what he can do. Stop tallying him and just start helping him to explore the world and see what it is that he can find to play and learn with.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 20, 2012, at 1:40 AM, chesskuhrazy wrote:

> I think the BIGGEST problem he is having is the comparison thing,
> he won't admit to it, but he is looking at what everyone else is doing.

It sounds like you're not confident in unschooling or homeschooling. And if he thinks you've taken him off into some La La Land that doesn't seem to be about real life, it would be natural to compare himself to the people who are confident they're doing it the right way.

> I really wish my son could find friends who had NOTHING to do
> with schooling or were at least very relaxed homeschoolers! lol
> I wish we all had our own little town! lol

But he'll be living in a world filled with people who have gone to school and are convinced it works. He needs you especially to understand and be confident that what you're doing -- or about to do -- "works".

That doesn't mean you need to know it all, but that you're confident of what unschooling can provide.

It might help to clarify what you want for him. If it's a school education, unschooling won't help you and it will look like a dismal failure. If it's to allow him to explore and discover what interests them, then it can help.

My daughter spent her childhood playing video games (and drawing, writing, watching TV, talking with me, playing with friends). At 14 she decided to take the college statistics class her dad teaches and did just fine. She did fine not because *anyone* can learn what they need for college statistics from video games but because playing is how people feed their interests. Numbers are interesting to her so she absorbed more and more about them as a side effect of playing video games and other things.

If all 14 yo unschoolers were put in college statistics classes most of them -- including my daughter! -- would fail miserably. Because they would be in an atmosphere of being forced to learn what someone else thinks is important. But when they can explore what interests them in ways that interest them, when they can drop what isn't working for them, they do just fine.

> I swear sometimes I wished I never even put him in that Chemistry class,

You might want to look at how many times you wished things were different in your emails. Wishing is an indication of feeling powerless. People who feel they can't make changes wish for someone or something else to change things.

It is what it is. You and he are where you are. What can you do differently right now? Don't look at some point where you wish you were. Look at doing something right now that will be better than what you're doing now or at least turn away from what isn't working.

Take him out of the Chemistry class. Let him know that his grade doesn't reflect how badly he's doing but how badly the class fits his needs, his interests and his learning style.

> The main reason I am thinking of a tutor is because the
> "placement test" of the local community college.

Why does he need to go to college right now? Why can't he explore life and what interests him? And go when he's 20. Or 27? Or never if it doesn't suit his right now needs? (It's much easier to get into college with life experience. Colleges especially like older students because older students don't see college as the next hoop to jump through after high school but a way to further their knowledge of something that interests them.)

My daughter is 20. She's a comic artist, writer, runner and into playing and listening to metal music. None of that supports her ;-) Right now she has a job as a telemarketer! But she loves it :-) She loves the people she works with. But telemarketer doesn't define who she is. Who she is is someone who is exploring ways to enjoy what she's doing.

She may go to college at some point when it suits her needs. She may not. She's taken 4 college classes (3 math and 1 writing) and did very well so unschooling certainly didn't get in her way of college. But for her, for right now, college won't help her do what she wants to do. (And would burden her with a big debt that she'd have to get a high paying job to pay for!)

> Do community colleges or Junior colleges really teach classes
> on a lower grade such as middle school subjects or early high school?

Don't think of it in terms of grade level. Real life math isn't packaged in grade levels. Eliminate that entirely from your brain because it exists nowhere in life except in school.

Community and even many 4 year colleges have basic level math classes because schools are doing an abysmal job of helping *all* kids grasp math. Colleges all have students scarred by and scared of math who have learned biggest of all that they're failures at math. :-/

> Should i get him a tutor to help him get caught up,
> just so he can take the placement test?

I would drop the idea of college entirely for now. Assure him it's not because he isn't capable but because college should not be a hoop to jump through before you can start life. It should be chosen to explore in a particular way something that interests him.

But *first* he should be exploring his interests through life. Find real ways for him to get involved in what interests him.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 20, 2012, at 1:40 AM, chesskuhrazy wrote:

> he comes home from a Chemistry class
> and tell's me that his semester grade is a 69

If someone tries to run with Olympic runners, no matter how good they are, they're going to look like failures.

While the other kids may not be Olympic-level chemistry students ;-), they're taking a class out of choice or because classes suit their learning style. Even in high school not all kids are taking chemistry. Most people won't ever use moles and balanced chemical equations and s,p and d shells. Most people could benefit from an everyday-life understanding of chemistry but by the time they're ready to absorb it, school has put a big "boring, hard" blockade before it. And they shut down.

These two pages might help:

Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk

Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<<<HOW he is gonna learn chemistry!< >>>>>>>



 I am going to tell a story. It is not a story about an unschooling person but non the less it is a story about how someone did learn chemistry and more when he wanted to and when there was meaning to him.  This is a story about my brother.
 I will try to make it short.

When my little brother was a little kid he loves school. He loved his teachers and going to school. He has friends from that time still to this day. As he grew older he started hating school and he barely made the grades to pass every year. He was OK with that. 
By the time he was in High School he was going to night High School. In Brazil that is for students that really just need to get themselves a diploma. My brother was working with my dad by the time he was 15 and surfing or doing sports all day so night school was the best option for him. He really could not care and thought he was not school material anyways like many kids do.

 Once he graduated my parents paid for him to go to California, live with my cousins and attend the San Jose University. It has always been a dream for my brother to live in California and surf there. San Jose is less than an hour from Santa Cruz, surfing town and a place that is totally him in every way.

 From the time he was  there he was giving swimming lessons to kids and being a Life Guard at the pool in the Summer. He was very loved and had a way with the kids. He quit the University and went to live in Santa Cruz where he continue to do that. Later on in his late 20's ( he had other jobs too while he was a lifeguard and swim coach which are more Summer jobs) he tried out to be a  Beach Life Guard which is very hard and competitive. He got in and with that he decided he wanted to  be a Fire Fighter. That is a very hard job to have, even more competitive. 

So he did Fire Fighting school and was the Captain of his class. He was awesome and did all kinds of training for all kinds of rescues.
he became a volunteer Fire Fighter in hopes that an opening would come up and he would get a job. They loved him.

To help him get the job he decided to also become an EMT- Emergency Medical Technician . That is a very though training with lots of chemistry, biology, biochemistry . and they also use math a lot. My brother was very worried that he would not do well because he never really learned anything in school. First he could not get it in school so he thought it was too hard. He called me to voice this.
 In the San Jose area it was a big class! His score in the final test was the SECOND highest score of all the participants! He could not believe!

He did learn when he wanted and needed it!. In his early thirties. He was then married and had two kids!!

It does not stop there!\

 After years of being a volunteer Fire Fighter and having having another job to pay the bills he got a job at a Solar Panel company and went to work for them. All about math with installing those power grids! He fell in love with this job!!

In a few years of working he became a chief installer and was leading crews in projects. He was so good he was invited twice to go to the Galapagos Islands to  lead big government projects there and had been interviewed by the news there every time. They love him. The last time he went he was also leading a training seminar in that country.

That is a kid that did not know any "school math' and even less chemistry when he graduated from high school !


 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I would suggest you go to the community college and meet with a guidance counselor there. I'm in FL and, of course, the laws are different but get to the cc and let them tell you what the options are. I run an umbrella school for hsers in FL and the cc has been a great next step for some of them. You don't have to have it all figured out and neither does your son. Just find out what the choices are, keep asking until you get an answer that works for you and your son, stop letting the panic hold you back and just get on with the next thing. Easy to say, hard to start. But once you get the ball rolling, it will get easier. And if cc is not the answer, that's fine too. Many people never go to college and some that do shouldn't.

Nance

Meredith

"chesskuhrazy" <chesskuhrazy@...> wrote:
> I am just REALLY AFRAID

I'm going to tell you something that helped me: it's only fear. Look it in the face and walk through it. I'm afraid of a lot of things, but most people who know me in person find that hard to believe - I've done some amazing things! And yet I have a lot of fear, most of the time. Fear is often scarier than whatever it is you're afraid of.

I have this game I play: what's the Worst that can happen? The Worst worst. Four horsemen of the Apocalypse worst. If I can push my fear all the way to there, I can start laughing at myself and get moving, start doing what I need to do. None of that may work for you, but I'll put it out there.

There's a way past fear, it's just a matter of getting to the other side (just! I know!).

>Right now I am really not sure if he even need's it for what his career is gonna be, heck I don't think he even know's yet what he want's to pursue, but he is thinking something to study animals.
**************

You and he are both bogged down with the idea of studying Before doing. Help him find ways to study and/or work with animals Now, rather than setting him up to feel frustrated and distressed in a class which won't seem to have any real meaning. That's the problem with taking classes first - the material doesn't relate to anything, so taking it in is a struggle. The people who do well in class do so because they can relate the information to something, somehow - that's how learning works. It's a matter of making connections. When there's nothing to connect to, then learning is a much longer, slower process.

If he flunks the class and re-takes it, he'll likely do better just for having seen all the material once. If he wants to do that, find out if he can drop but still attend ("audit") the rest of the semester. That was something I did in college when I wanted to take a course with all new material, I'd audit it first and get a feel for the stuff before having to do any of the work. And in the process, I'd decide if I really wanted to take that class or not. If he Wants to take community college courses but is nervous about the material, suggest he ask the teacher if he can audit.

>>I don't know if this has to do with him being behind in math, or because he is not taught the chemistry at home. When I signed up for the class I "thought" this teacher was going to be doing most of the teaching.
*****************

Have you apologized for that? You messed up, not finding out enough about the class ahead of time. Apologizing may help your son feel better about how he's doing in class - he doesn't Have the resources that other class members have, and that makes things harder. Say sorry and move on, looking for ways to help him out. What does he want to do? Does he want to continue? If so, help him find the resources he needs to get through the class - websites or a tutor or someone to hold his hand and encourage him when things are tough. But also let him know he can drop the class if he'd rather. He may not have realized it's an option, and it Is an option. The catch is to reassure him that dropping isn't a sign of failure, it's a recognition his needs aren't being met in that environment. Help him discover and meet his needs.

>> I know I shouldn't be so negative

Good, then make a change ;) Be more positive, more proactive, more helpful to your kid. Panicking isn't going to help him, it will only amp up his own stress. He doesn't need your terror; he needs you to reassure him you're not going to pull the mat out from under him and kick him out if he turns 18 without meeting some goal or other. He needs to know that there Isn't a magic deadline - so convince yourself of that, however works for you. If he's still living at home in three years, he won't be the only one of his age-peers doing so, but he could be the most content if you set the stage.

>>Do community colleges or Junior colleges really teach classes on a lower grade such as middle school subjects or early high school?
*****************

Call and ask. Seriously, don't ask complete strangers over the internet, call the local college. Look in the phone book under "adult education" and/or call local high schools, too, and ask about adult education classes. If the community college doesn't have specific classes, the local adult ed program will - that's what it's For. Because there are plenty of people who graduate high school (yes! graduate!) without reading very well and without much in the way of math skills. When I used to teach a GED class, that was the running joke: if I'd stayed in school, I wouldn't have to learn any of this stuff. And it's true.

>> I don't wanna sound crazy asking them if they would accept my son over the phone if he were only at a middle school level.
**************

Okay, I'm going to say something a bit harsh: get over yourself. You're letting your ego get in the way of taking care of your kid. If whoever you talk with thinks you're crazy or a flake, so what? It's better for You to be the crazy flake than set your son up to feel humiliated, or be so scared of humiliation he doesn't make those calls himself. He needs You, his trusted parent, to accept the responsibility and stand up for him right now.

You've left this all way late and hurt your kid in the doing. You Don't need to worry about birthdays and deadlines, but your son needs you to step up to the plate, do some research and provide some support. Asking random internet strangers isn't good enough, you need to call local adult ed, call the local community college, call local family services itself and find out what resources exist for a kid whose education has let him down, even if it means swallowing your pride and admitting you were part of that.

>>Would I be turned in to DSS for educational neglect?...

Probably not, but DSS can be a fantastic resource for people who need help negotiating the local services. If you're really feeling out of your depth, call them and Ask for that help. Think of them as a free consulting service, rather than some kind of evil enemy.

>> I wished that someone would chime in to tell me they had a child who had ADD like my son or another kind of learning disability and made it...
***************

The trouble is, the unschoolers who've "made it" haven't gotten bogged down by the sorts of things schools label "learning disabilities". When my stepson was in school, a whole lot of labels were suggested for him - the whole alphabet soup of AS, ADHD, SID, OD... I'm sure there were more. If my daughter was in school, she'd likely have a special alphabet of her own, too. In school, those kinds of labels are a handy way to get extra services, but outside of school they're just baggage. They attempt to define issues when what you need to do, as a parent, is look at your kids' needs and work toward meeting them. Right now, your kid needs reassurance and some real, tangible support. If you can't provide those things, help him find someone who can.

>>I sometimes think that maybe these unschooler's I have read about online have made it to college were just so "gifted" it really didn't matter.
******************

A lot of people wonder that about unschoolers. It's a good picture of the difference education versus a rich life makes. Kids in school who are "gifted" have rich home lives.

It sounds like you had a lot of confusion about home education and a lack of confidence in yourself, and didn't get the help You needed. That's not your fault, but it may help to acknowledge that if you want to move beyond it and give your son the assistance he needs to create the kind of life he's happy with.

>>made it to college

A big step forward will be to step away from that phrase. Going to college isn't that big a deal. I have a college education and am looking to move from my factory job back into retail. I'm an artist - and a college degree doesn't make artists successful. Most of us have day jobs or supportive spouses, even those of us with master's degrees. My degree isn't in art, by the way; it's psych with a minor in chemistry. I know more real chemistry from making cheese and soap than from classes, though.

If your son doesn't quite know what he wants to do yet, the Worst place to go is a 4 year college. Let him work or volunteer or take it easy. Help him take classes if he wants, adult ed or community college or vo-tech or extension classes - whatever appeals at the moment. Help him dabble and explore. Help him think outside the box. Learning to think outside the box is what makes unschoolers seem "gifted" - and it's learn-able. Help your son learn that and he'll "make it" college or no.

---Meredith

[email protected]

All caps comes across as "shouting" in print.
It's hard for people to read and can be off-putting. Please do not "shout" at other list members, even to thank them.
Thanks!

alma

--- In [email protected], "chesskuhrazy" <chesskuhrazy@...> wrote:
>
I think the BIGGEST problem he is having is the comparison thing, he won't admit to it, but he is looking at what everyone else is doing. Especially the week older than him cousin who lives part-time next door.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Does this cousin next door also have ADD? I ask because if not he (and you) are not comparing like with like. I have just been googling "symptoms of ADD" and it strikes me you are giving yourselves a really hard time. Do you (and he) believe that, with his struggles with ADD, he would have done just fine if he stayed at school?

I have a friend, an adult with a dx of ADD, who went through school. When he was repeatedly failing, and neither his parents nor teachers could cope with him, they sent him to boarding school. He ran away several times, one of which he was picked up by a man and horribly abused. Eventually he got a girl pregnant at a young age and was more or less disowned by everyone. Fast forward to his mid-twenties. He applied for and trained as a flight attendant and has been flying now for a number or years. He both loves it, and is very good at it.

The point of this story is that, when you have additional difficulties to face, the school, college, good job route is less likely to happen whether you are in school or not. Just imagine how much better my friend's life could have been without school, with an engaged and supportive parent.

I have a 9 year old with a dx of Aspergers, and occasionally get nervous when I compare him to the school kids I know. But I always remember the question Sandra Dodd (I think it's Sandra Dodd) asks which is "But is it the unschooling?" meaning that you must not look at how OTHER kids are doing at school but how YOUR child would do at school.

I suspect your son would have found school mighty difficult. As all the symptoms of ADD lists pointed out, it is much easier for kids to learn and pay attention when they're doing something they enjoy.

So, like others have said, get him enjoying life and thinking outside the box as to what next.