Will we still be unschoolers...
Shira Rocklin
If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way?
Shira
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way?
Shira
Ulrike Haupt
Hi Shira
You wrote
"If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way? "
Just the last couple of days I've been reading up on "Field Training" which
is an awesome (in my opinion) way to look at how we live and 'create' our
life experiences. And I know that 'unschooling' is a part of what is
happening to us and thus - according to this system - of 'who we are'. The
basic premise of this system is "Identity creates experience" So if and
when you identify with BEING AN UNSCHOOLER with whatever you believe the
truth of what an unschooler would be - you would experience an 'unschooling
life' accordingly. In the end it boils down to what is the inner truth for
you. Do you believe that it is true that every child has full rights to be
respected in every way all the time? Or is it true that children are only
fully human and to be respected in their wishes, unique beingness and needs
when they reach a certain age or measure of accomplishment until shich time
they have to be 'pushed and pulled and co-erced' into the mould that is
right for them? Or whatever else is your experienced truth? Maybe your truth
is "I believe in children but others don't and I am at the mercy of the
authority of these others." Or any other 'truth' hides within you. I cannot
say. But I know that for myself I am on a constant quest to uncover what I
perceive as 'truth about reality' and where I am not in total agreement with
what I see as apparent truth and what I want to be true I take some time off
to make internal peace.
When I 'fail' at my ideal it is just a wake-up call for me to look within
and see where I was willing to settle for less than I am.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
You wrote
"If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way? "
Just the last couple of days I've been reading up on "Field Training" which
is an awesome (in my opinion) way to look at how we live and 'create' our
life experiences. And I know that 'unschooling' is a part of what is
happening to us and thus - according to this system - of 'who we are'. The
basic premise of this system is "Identity creates experience" So if and
when you identify with BEING AN UNSCHOOLER with whatever you believe the
truth of what an unschooler would be - you would experience an 'unschooling
life' accordingly. In the end it boils down to what is the inner truth for
you. Do you believe that it is true that every child has full rights to be
respected in every way all the time? Or is it true that children are only
fully human and to be respected in their wishes, unique beingness and needs
when they reach a certain age or measure of accomplishment until shich time
they have to be 'pushed and pulled and co-erced' into the mould that is
right for them? Or whatever else is your experienced truth? Maybe your truth
is "I believe in children but others don't and I am at the mercy of the
authority of these others." Or any other 'truth' hides within you. I cannot
say. But I know that for myself I am on a constant quest to uncover what I
perceive as 'truth about reality' and where I am not in total agreement with
what I see as apparent truth and what I want to be true I take some time off
to make internal peace.
When I 'fail' at my ideal it is just a wake-up call for me to look within
and see where I was willing to settle for less than I am.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa
otherstar
Don't get caught up in always saying yes or removing all limits. There are some things that I cannot change because in order to change those things, I would have to be somebody else entirely. I have baggage and I have issues. If there is something that I cannot or will not change, then I own it.
Whether we like it or not, there are limits in this world. There is a limit to how much money we have. There is a limit to how many hours are in the day. There is a limit to how much I can physically do. I don't think the goal is to never set any limits. The goal is to try to remove as many arbitrary limits as possible. Try not to confine yourself to always worrying about living an unschooly life. Just try to focus on living a rich life that is full of fun and adventure. If you and your kids are having fun and enjoying yourselves, there is a good chance that you won't have time to feel guilty. : -) I always look to my kids for the answer. If something isn't working for your family and you need to change it, then don't feel guilty.
Connie
From: Shira Rocklin
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Will we still be unschoolers...
If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way?
Shira
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Whether we like it or not, there are limits in this world. There is a limit to how much money we have. There is a limit to how many hours are in the day. There is a limit to how much I can physically do. I don't think the goal is to never set any limits. The goal is to try to remove as many arbitrary limits as possible. Try not to confine yourself to always worrying about living an unschooly life. Just try to focus on living a rich life that is full of fun and adventure. If you and your kids are having fun and enjoying yourselves, there is a good chance that you won't have time to feel guilty. : -) I always look to my kids for the answer. If something isn't working for your family and you need to change it, then don't feel guilty.
Connie
From: Shira Rocklin
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Will we still be unschoolers...
If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could? Because
its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice all
the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is the
unschooled way?
Shira
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.148/2629 - Release Date: 01/17/10 13:35:00
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Sanders
> And, whenever I doWhy are you unschooling? So that you can call yourself an unschooler?
> something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
> failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
> rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything is
> the
> unschooled way?
Belong to a club?
Or is it because you want to provide for your children a life where
their interests and desires are honored and respected? Do you want to
have a partnering relationship with your children and help and
encourage them to live a rich and interesting life doing what makes
them happy and fulfilled? I don't know what a life where *everything
is the unschooled way* would look like but I know what kind of
nurturing, attentive, kind and respectful parent I want to be. Guilt
isn't a feeling that others cause you to feel -- treat your children
the best you know how, strive to do better and learn more about giving
them the best unschooled life you can - and you'll have no reason to
feel guilty.
Chris in IA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Does it really matter ? I mean , the lable of unschooling, why do you need to know if others would consider you an unschooler?
There are no rules in unschooling. There are priciples. Unschooling will look different in every family.
There is no unschooling police or test to check if you are doing it right.
You have a young child right?
So many things parents are saying here may not yet apply to you and your family.
When my oldest son was young me and my husband used to say that we would not let him play video games all day.
When he started playing we embraced it and we saw the joy he had playing them. Not only that but how much he learned and challenged himself doing so.
Now I even like video games, and I used not like them.
As for limits, as someone said, life is full or real limits.
Imposing arbritary limits will not help your path to a joyful unschooling life.
I suggest you keep reading. keep asking questions.
Would you like to talk about what limits you feel you may need to impose on your child?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
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There are no rules in unschooling. There are priciples. Unschooling will look different in every family.
There is no unschooling police or test to check if you are doing it right.
You have a young child right?
So many things parents are saying here may not yet apply to you and your family.
When my oldest son was young me and my husband used to say that we would not let him play video games all day.
When he started playing we embraced it and we saw the joy he had playing them. Not only that but how much he learned and challenged himself doing so.
Now I even like video games, and I used not like them.
As for limits, as someone said, life is full or real limits.
Imposing arbritary limits will not help your path to a joyful unschooling life.
I suggest you keep reading. keep asking questions.
Would you like to talk about what limits you feel you may need to impose on your child?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
Are you worried that if you go to an unschooling conference and bring a case of Knudsen's for your kids as an alternative to the coke machine that you'll be ostracised? In person, unschoolers aren't Nearly as heavy on theory, I promise. In group settings most of us are trying to figure out how to balance hanging out with our kids and getting to meet some real-live Other Unschoolers.
When I was newer to unschooling I worried more about the Other Unschoolers - what will they think of me? Am I too weird? too conventional? too dull? Normal will-I-fit-in sorts of worries in a way, but complicated by the fact that I was still trying to wrap my mind around the whole concept of unschooling. The more unschoolers I met, the more I relaxed about that. There are definite differences between a group of unschooling families and a group of school or homeschooling families, but none of us are perfect.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>Why do you want to set that limit? What's the rationale behind it? Can you explain the rationale to your kids instead of making a rule about it? That would be better than just drawing a line in the sand bc at least your kids could have a chance to see your reasoning - even if you aren't allowing them to disagree with it right now. Its not the Ideal, but none of us live ideal lives. Ideals are something to work toward, but don't beat yourself up if you don't get an A+ every time - this isn't school, after all ;)
> If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
> where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
> point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
> the time, not about everything
Are you worried that if you go to an unschooling conference and bring a case of Knudsen's for your kids as an alternative to the coke machine that you'll be ostracised? In person, unschoolers aren't Nearly as heavy on theory, I promise. In group settings most of us are trying to figure out how to balance hanging out with our kids and getting to meet some real-live Other Unschoolers.
When I was newer to unschooling I worried more about the Other Unschoolers - what will they think of me? Am I too weird? too conventional? too dull? Normal will-I-fit-in sorts of worries in a way, but complicated by the fact that I was still trying to wrap my mind around the whole concept of unschooling. The more unschoolers I met, the more I relaxed about that. There are definite differences between a group of unschooling families and a group of school or homeschooling families, but none of us are perfect.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:54 AM, Shira Rocklin wrote:
you're comfortable, do you think it will give the same benefits that
others get who don't stretch it?
Don't look to wear a badge. The badge doesn't provide the benefits.
Practicing the principles is what provides the benefits. The more you
trust your children, the more you are trusted by them, the better
your relationship.
If you one time say no, does that destroy everything? Relationship
building is not a spell that must be done perfectly down to each
inflection. It's a childhood long process. There are choices that you
can make that move closer to great relationship and learning
naturally and choices you can make the move you further away. Each
step closer is a step closer. Each step further away is a step
further away. But it's not like chutes and ladders where you get
transported back to the beginning by taking on wrong step.
I doubt anyone has ever reached a place where everything is
unschooling! We've all got flaws. So it's not helpful to think of
unschooling as a destination. Think of it as making better choices
each time. Ask yourself how you can be a better partner to your
child. Each time, give yourself two choices. And choose the better,
more relationship building choice.
If we know what choices move toward better relationships and what
choices move away, that makes it easier to choose.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want toIf you stretch the definition of unschooling broad enough so that
> change,
> where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
> point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
> the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would
> that
> make us not unschoolers? If we were trying the best we could?
you're comfortable, do you think it will give the same benefits that
others get who don't stretch it?
Don't look to wear a badge. The badge doesn't provide the benefits.
Practicing the principles is what provides the benefits. The more you
trust your children, the more you are trusted by them, the better
your relationship.
If you one time say no, does that destroy everything? Relationship
building is not a spell that must be done perfectly down to each
inflection. It's a childhood long process. There are choices that you
can make that move closer to great relationship and learning
naturally and choices you can make the move you further away. Each
step closer is a step closer. Each step further away is a step
further away. But it's not like chutes and ladders where you get
transported back to the beginning by taking on wrong step.
> BecauseThen you won't, but will it be better than putting them in school?
> its always a process, so none of us must be making the right choice
> all
> the time in terms of unschooling our children. And, whenever I do
> something not unschooly, I don't want to feel guilty, like I've just
> failed at unschooling. But what if I have those things happen for the
> rest of our lives, what if I never reach a place where everything
> is the
> unschooled way?
I doubt anyone has ever reached a place where everything is
unschooling! We've all got flaws. So it's not helpful to think of
unschooling as a destination. Think of it as making better choices
each time. Ask yourself how you can be a better partner to your
child. Each time, give yourself two choices. And choose the better,
more relationship building choice.
If we know what choices move toward better relationships and what
choices move away, that makes it easier to choose.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
missalexmissalex
A mom at a local park day pointed me towards this blog post, which is about letting go of being a textbook anything to the point of ignoring what feels right, particularly "unschooler." I love this list and others, and am deeply grateful for everyone who is very open about their unschooled life. This is not a condemnation of that, but about freeing yourself from a bunch of rules you are imposing on yourself as a parent and not stressing yourself about being perfect. My new goal is not to be radical as much as awesome. :)
http://www.justenoughblog.com/?p=1631
Alex
mama to Katya, 2 1/2
http://www.justenoughblog.com/?p=1631
Alex
mama to Katya, 2 1/2
--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
> If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change,
> where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some
> point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all
> the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that
> make us not unschoolers?
gruvystarchild
~~If at some point we encounter situations where we don't want to change, where we are flexible, but to a limit... if my husband and I, at some point, decide that we do want to place some limit, somewhere, not all the time, not about everything, but if there are some things, would that make us not unschoolers?~~
Of course not. But is the goal to be an unschooler, at the cost of all else or is the goal to be happy and to foster great relationships? If my children decide to go to school, I won't be an unschooler. If I'm more hung up on fitting some label then it would be a lot harder to support them.
The goal should always be happy, healthy relationships. Unschooling is less important than all the esoteric stuff, but also a big part of the reason we want to do all the other stuff better. :)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Of course not. But is the goal to be an unschooler, at the cost of all else or is the goal to be happy and to foster great relationships? If my children decide to go to school, I won't be an unschooler. If I'm more hung up on fitting some label then it would be a lot harder to support them.
The goal should always be happy, healthy relationships. Unschooling is less important than all the esoteric stuff, but also a big part of the reason we want to do all the other stuff better. :)
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
gruvystarchild
~~ A mom at a local park day pointed me towards this blog post, which is about letting go of being a textbook anything to the point of ignoring what feels right, particularly "unschooler."~~
Often what feels "right" are ingrained things from our childhood that are not particularly helpful. It's good to examine our own baggage and ideas.
I personally found that post disrespectful of radical unschoolers and touting a lot of ideas that show people see unschooling and radical unschooling as some sort of "club" rather than ideas that get discussed.
I don't go posting about how lame homeschooling lists and parents are, I guess their definition of "respect" IS far different from my own...but I'm not surprised.
The idea that unschooling has to be done a certain way is silly....but I think that's a notion that surfaces from discussion lists and the inability to see that discussion is just that. The whole post was so negative, I'm sorry to see a great topic turn so ugly towards people who ARE passionate unschoolers. It doesn't engender the diversity they claim they cherish.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Often what feels "right" are ingrained things from our childhood that are not particularly helpful. It's good to examine our own baggage and ideas.
I personally found that post disrespectful of radical unschoolers and touting a lot of ideas that show people see unschooling and radical unschooling as some sort of "club" rather than ideas that get discussed.
I don't go posting about how lame homeschooling lists and parents are, I guess their definition of "respect" IS far different from my own...but I'm not surprised.
The idea that unschooling has to be done a certain way is silly....but I think that's a notion that surfaces from discussion lists and the inability to see that discussion is just that. The whole post was so negative, I'm sorry to see a great topic turn so ugly towards people who ARE passionate unschoolers. It doesn't engender the diversity they claim they cherish.
Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com
Monica Van Stelton
Hello
I am sitting here trying to understand what is unschooling...I was watching some videos of Dayna Martin explaining what is unschooling and she says that is based on the belief that children learn from self motivation or inner drive and it totally make sense...I even learned that went I was going to college to be a teacher.
What I don't understand is about not having any limits...I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good. And even though I was raised the "common" way I don't fallow it totally at all.
Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc. So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting...and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.
Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either. Life is full of limits and it starts with us as persons, we can jump as high as a tall man can, or run as fast as a panther..our body has a limit...we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancy car....I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast...My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc. I see that having limits is part of humanity as much as I like it or dislike it there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of life and if you didn't have your body to limit you or a floor that stops you from going lower we would
be lost in space.
Sorry for the long e mail....
Thank you for taking the time to read it and answer!!!
Thanks againMonica
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am sitting here trying to understand what is unschooling...I was watching some videos of Dayna Martin explaining what is unschooling and she says that is based on the belief that children learn from self motivation or inner drive and it totally make sense...I even learned that went I was going to college to be a teacher.
What I don't understand is about not having any limits...I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good. And even though I was raised the "common" way I don't fallow it totally at all.
Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc. So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting...and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.
Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either. Life is full of limits and it starts with us as persons, we can jump as high as a tall man can, or run as fast as a panther..our body has a limit...we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancy car....I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast...My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc. I see that having limits is part of humanity as much as I like it or dislike it there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of life and if you didn't have your body to limit you or a floor that stops you from going lower we would
be lost in space.
Sorry for the long e mail....
Thank you for taking the time to read it and answer!!!
Thanks againMonica
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Justice Riccardi
I have the same concerns. I follow the unschooling approach for homeschooling but not discipline or parenting. while i agree with respecting your child, giving them lots of choices and letting them learn on their own, that doesn't work for every child or every situation. my son has special needs and major impulse control issues. i need to teach him self-control because he doesn't learn it on his own. even if i explain why jumping on the baby is not a good idea because it hurts her, blah blah blah. he still does it. there has to be a limit for that. for injuring people/animals, for destroying property, for being safe. so while i use the unschooling approach for many things, i also have to tailor it for my family, for my kids, and for my values and comfort level. limits are necessary, especially for younger children. that's where you build the basis of self-control. routines and schedules are important for young children. that's how they learn balance.
balance is essential for all life. you can go overboard with any parenting technique. just find the groove that works for you instead of trying to fit all the way into one box. we don't all fit in boxes. i know i don't.
Justice
balance is essential for all life. you can go overboard with any parenting technique. just find the groove that works for you instead of trying to fit all the way into one box. we don't all fit in boxes. i know i don't.
Justice
--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...> wrote:
From: Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] unschooling and limits (sorry it is long)
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 3:29 AM
Hello
I am sitting here trying to understand what is unschooling. ..I was watching some videos of Dayna Martin explaining what is unschooling and she says that is based on the belief that children learn from self motivation or inner drive and it totally make sense...I even learned that went I was going to college to be a teacher.
What I don't understand is about not having any limits...I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good. And even though I was raised the "common" way I don't fallow it totally at all.
Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc. So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting... and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.
Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either. Life is full of limits and it starts with us as persons, we can jump as high as a tall man can, or run as fast as a panther..our body has a limit...we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancy car....I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast... My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc. I see that having limits is part of humanity as much as I like it or dislike it there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of life and if you didn't have your body to limit you or a floor that stops you from going lower we would
be lost in space.
Sorry for the long e mail....
Thank you for taking the time to read it and answer!!!
Thanks againMonica
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:29 AM, Monica Van Stelton wrote:
The desire to get along with other people limits us.
Life limits and parent chosen limits aren't the same. If you put them
in the same box and treat them as though they were the same, that
won't help you think clearly about the important differences.
*But* a sleepy baby in a high chair doesn't have a lot of options! If
he's easy going, he may put up with a just okay situation while he
waits for the next good thing to come along.
That's where being attuned to your child comes in. You be your
children's partner to help them get what they want.
safe. So you do what you can to make it safe.
But I think it's not helpful to think in terms of limits and no
limits. Much better and clearer to think in terms of giving a child
choices, opening up their world as much as you can for them to explore.
Where most parents get turned around is that 1) they impose limits
for their own convenience and 2) their fears of the world go beyond
the obvious.
Convenience isn't bad! But parents tend to try to make raising kids
less inconvenient when raising kids *is* inconvenient. Kids should
have the freedom to explore, but they don't need to be dumping wall
paint on the living room rug. In those cases, it helps to look toward
what the child needs to do then find safe and respectful
alternatives. (Maybe it's pouring. Maybe it's a need for tactile
play. Maybe it's a need to paint that could be met in the bath tub or
on an outside wall with tempra paint. Or something else. (There's
*loads* of options between a thoughtless "Yes" and a thoughtless "No.")
If you have things that are dangerous, could make a big mess, are
fragile lock them up, put them out of sight.
No rules doesn't mean everything's an option. When a conventionally
parented child hears "No," it's usually a roadblock dumped in front
of them with a parent guarding passage around it.
When a mindfully parented child hears "No," it means "Wait, let me
help you do that in a safer (less messy, respectful) way." When no is
followed by help to do what the child wants (which sometimes means
some alternative like a trampoline to jump on rather than the couch,
help finding an alternative sweet when a trip to the grocery store is
better tomorrow), then nos don't mean the same thing as they do to a
conventionally parented child.
the prepubescent years (when it's apparently common) she watched
several hours a day but once she reached teens it was hard to get her
to watch enough to keep the DVR at a useable level ;-)
Is that because she's exemplary or because there's something else
going on?
The problem with your thought experiment is that you're projecting
conventionally parented kids as though they were natural kids. But if
conventional parenting has no adverse effect on kids, then there's no
reason to be doing the extra work involved to be mindful!
Conventional parenting sets up an adversarial relationship between
child and parent. For the child to get what he wants, he either needs
granted permission or to fight against the parents' roadblock.
For a mindfully parented child, TV is just one of many options. It's
up to the parent to funnel lots of things through the kids lives so
when they're choosing TV it's because TV is the best option. (And
sometimes it is!)
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/tv
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics
Also:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com -- down the left side are quite a few
pages about TV, all the common worries addressed.
drugs and alcohol?
Just because a scenario can be imagined doesn't mean it happens in
real life.
That *doesn't* mean unschooled kids are paragons! What it means is
that there are real reasons why 13 yos want sex, drugs and alcohol.
The biggest factor is that their parents aren't on their team. It's
either be on their parents team or go it alone. Control will drive
them to pull away and want what is forbidden.
When kids know their parents are on *their* team, they aren't pushing
those kinds of envelopes. It wouldn't make sense! It would be like
shooting the guide you've hired to help you through the jungle ;-)
Conventional parents *think* they're helping their child through the
jungle, but they're leading the child on the path the parents have
chosen for them. And the kids see all sorts of different paths they'd
like to explore. If the parent says no too often (too often according
to the child) the child will really really want to explore those
paths and try to find any way they can to ditch the so-called guide.
But when the child is the one directing, the parent can help them
explore safely. When the child sets their own comfort limits, they
aren't charging into dangerous areas without a guide. They're going a
bit beyond their comfort zone to test their own expanding limitations.
Kelly Lovejoy's son did experiment with some drugs. (He was not
always unschooled.) Here's how she handled it:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/alwayssayyes.html
(It's below the chunk of indented red about halfway down the page.)
And I think alcohol is treated with way too much fear as though there
were something inherently dangerous in it. What's most dangerous is
making it forbidden fruit that kids can't have until they're 21 and
then they don't have any healthy examples except their excessive
friends. When kids aren't under pressure to perform and are looking
for release, when kids don't see alcohol as some rite of passage or
freedom, then alcohol loses a *lot* of its danger.
Here's something that Schuyler posts when discussions of addiction
come up that's well worth reading:
interesting but I preferred more standard kid drinks. (In fact for
Sunday dinner my aunt would give everyone, including us kids, either
a new mixed drink she was trying or some wine. I don't ever remember
finishing one but I could have and they were there every week. As an
adult I could drink as much as I want but it's never had that
specialness tied to it. I did the same for my daughter (except for
the weekly mix drink) and at 18 she thinks alcohol "worship" is
really dumb.
While addiction is more complex than "just don't control it" the
attitude of "don't touch it until you're 21" is creating a greater
problem than if parents would approach it more sensibly.
A 13 always controlled kids who has shown he's fighting against his
parents control, it could be a disaster in the making.
But a child who trust her parents, who knows they will help her get
what she wants, isn't out to prove anything or fight against
anything. Asking the child to call when she gets there or if she
decides to go somewhere else she won't feel as control. She'll
understand it as just common sense. (Because her parents have done
the same thing for her, or forgot a time or two and worried the child
and had to apologize profusely! ;-)
What if -- in some fantasy land ;-) -- you had a week totally free of
responsibilities and your husband said "I don't see how letting her
read books all day is good." What's up with that? Isn't that up to you?
The problem is that we assume we limit ourselves because we know
better. We *assume* that we'd do all the wrong and bad and excessive
things unless we had someone telling us to stop, or scripts in our
head that "mature" people have that tell us when to stop.
The truth is very few people have ever experienced what it's like to
explore their limits since they were kids and find what's right for
them. They only imagine the consequences based on people who've been
controlled.
That's where unschooling conferences come in handy. If you see the
children of long time unschoolers, you'll never find a better group
of young people. They aren't zombies. They aren't subsisting on Coke
and Cheetos. They're thoughtful and helpful. Even when they're out of
their parents' sight (which is telling! ;-) Again, they aren't
paragons. And they aren't putting on a face. They don't have a need
to take on the self preservationistic behaviors that schooled,
conventionally parented kids do because they know their parents are
on their team.
One big plus to what we discuss about unschooling is that it's not
just pie in the sky theory like the hippies spouted. Many of us now
have grown kids who've turned out just as we trusted all along that
they would :-)
without a guide?
We're there with them, acting as their partners. We don't tell them
how they should be seeing the world -- eg, "You need to eat organic
whole wheat baked goods because white flour is nutritionless glue,"
-- but we do pull them back from Mack trucks and offer our
understanding without strings attached, eg, "It just seems to make
sense to me to eat whole grains that have nutrients already in them
and lots of micronutrients science might not yet realize are
important." When it's presented as information, especially
information on why I make choices for me, it doesn't feel like control.
fancy car. You choose not to.
And that's important! If you see "no choice" and "no choice that I
want" as the same, it can make you feel trapped. When you see that
you every day choose to get up, to not take off for Bermuda on your
own, choose to make meals for your family, all those things are much
easier! They aren't have tos. They're conscious choices you're making
because there are benefits.
These are very helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Joyce
> What I don't understand is about not having any limitsNo one lives without limits. Physics limits us. Society limits us.
The desire to get along with other people limits us.
Life limits and parent chosen limits aren't the same. If you put them
in the same box and treat them as though they were the same, that
won't help you think clearly about the important differences.
> Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to haveIf that's where he's comfortable, why not?
> any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if
> he is in his highchair,
*But* a sleepy baby in a high chair doesn't have a lot of options! If
he's easy going, he may put up with a just okay situation while he
waits for the next good thing to come along.
That's where being attuned to your child comes in. You be your
children's partner to help them get what they want.
> I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he canYour child trusts that the environment you put him in is relatively
> go or explore, no cribs, no no's,
safe. So you do what you can to make it safe.
But I think it's not helpful to think in terms of limits and no
limits. Much better and clearer to think in terms of giving a child
choices, opening up their world as much as you can for them to explore.
Where most parents get turned around is that 1) they impose limits
for their own convenience and 2) their fears of the world go beyond
the obvious.
Convenience isn't bad! But parents tend to try to make raising kids
less inconvenient when raising kids *is* inconvenient. Kids should
have the freedom to explore, but they don't need to be dumping wall
paint on the living room rug. In those cases, it helps to look toward
what the child needs to do then find safe and respectful
alternatives. (Maybe it's pouring. Maybe it's a need for tactile
play. Maybe it's a need to paint that could be met in the bath tub or
on an outside wall with tempra paint. Or something else. (There's
*loads* of options between a thoughtless "Yes" and a thoughtless "No.")
If you have things that are dangerous, could make a big mess, are
fragile lock them up, put them out of sight.
No rules doesn't mean everything's an option. When a conventionally
parented child hears "No," it's usually a roadblock dumped in front
of them with a parent guarding passage around it.
When a mindfully parented child hears "No," it means "Wait, let me
help you do that in a safer (less messy, respectful) way." When no is
followed by help to do what the child wants (which sometimes means
some alternative like a trampoline to jump on rather than the couch,
help finding an alternative sweet when a trip to the grocery store is
better tomorrow), then nos don't mean the same thing as they do to a
conventionally parented child.
> TV all day any day, etc.While my daughter *could* have watched TV all day, she never did. In
the prepubescent years (when it's apparently common) she watched
several hours a day but once she reached teens it was hard to get her
to watch enough to keep the DVR at a useable level ;-)
Is that because she's exemplary or because there's something else
going on?
The problem with your thought experiment is that you're projecting
conventionally parented kids as though they were natural kids. But if
conventional parenting has no adverse effect on kids, then there's no
reason to be doing the extra work involved to be mindful!
Conventional parenting sets up an adversarial relationship between
child and parent. For the child to get what he wants, he either needs
granted permission or to fight against the parents' roadblock.
For a mindfully parented child, TV is just one of many options. It's
up to the parent to funnel lots of things through the kids lives so
when they're choosing TV it's because TV is the best option. (And
sometimes it is!)
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/tv
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics
Also:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com -- down the left side are quite a few
pages about TV, all the common worries addressed.
> So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can'tDo you have a 13 yo always unschooled child who wants to have sex,
> say no, same with drugs and alcohol...
drugs and alcohol?
Just because a scenario can be imagined doesn't mean it happens in
real life.
That *doesn't* mean unschooled kids are paragons! What it means is
that there are real reasons why 13 yos want sex, drugs and alcohol.
The biggest factor is that their parents aren't on their team. It's
either be on their parents team or go it alone. Control will drive
them to pull away and want what is forbidden.
When kids know their parents are on *their* team, they aren't pushing
those kinds of envelopes. It wouldn't make sense! It would be like
shooting the guide you've hired to help you through the jungle ;-)
Conventional parents *think* they're helping their child through the
jungle, but they're leading the child on the path the parents have
chosen for them. And the kids see all sorts of different paths they'd
like to explore. If the parent says no too often (too often according
to the child) the child will really really want to explore those
paths and try to find any way they can to ditch the so-called guide.
But when the child is the one directing, the parent can help them
explore safely. When the child sets their own comfort limits, they
aren't charging into dangerous areas without a guide. They're going a
bit beyond their comfort zone to test their own expanding limitations.
Kelly Lovejoy's son did experiment with some drugs. (He was not
always unschooled.) Here's how she handled it:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/alwayssayyes.html
(It's below the chunk of indented red about halfway down the page.)
And I think alcohol is treated with way too much fear as though there
were something inherently dangerous in it. What's most dangerous is
making it forbidden fruit that kids can't have until they're 21 and
then they don't have any healthy examples except their excessive
friends. When kids aren't under pressure to perform and are looking
for release, when kids don't see alcohol as some rite of passage or
freedom, then alcohol loses a *lot* of its danger.
Here's something that Schuyler posts when discussions of addiction
come up that's well worth reading:
> There was a fantastic study on addiction done at Simon FraserI was raised being allowed to have sips of alcohol. It was
> University in the 70's by a psychologist, Bruce K. Alexander. There
> is a synopsis of the study, called the Rat Pack, at Wikipedia
> (which so trumps the encyclopedia of my childhood): http://
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park. In that synopsis it says:
>
> "Alexander's hypothesis was that drugs do not cause addiction, and
> that the apparent addiction to morphine commonly observed in
> laboratory rats exposed to it is attributable to
> their living conditions, and not to any addictive property of the drug
> itself. [1] He told the Canadian Senate in 2001 that experiments in
> which laboratory rats are kept isolated in
> cramped metal cages, tethered to self-injection apparatus, show only
> that "severely distressed animals, like severely distressed people,
> will relieve their distress pharmacologically if they can."
interesting but I preferred more standard kid drinks. (In fact for
Sunday dinner my aunt would give everyone, including us kids, either
a new mixed drink she was trying or some wine. I don't ever remember
finishing one but I could have and they were there every week. As an
adult I could drink as much as I want but it's never had that
specialness tied to it. I did the same for my daughter (except for
the weekly mix drink) and at 18 she thinks alcohol "worship" is
really dumb.
While addiction is more complex than "just don't control it" the
attitude of "don't touch it until you're 21" is creating a greater
problem than if parents would approach it more sensibly.
> If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...ISIt depends.
> this right?
A 13 always controlled kids who has shown he's fighting against his
parents control, it could be a disaster in the making.
But a child who trust her parents, who knows they will help her get
what she wants, isn't out to prove anything or fight against
anything. Asking the child to call when she gets there or if she
decides to go somewhere else she won't feel as control. She'll
understand it as just common sense. (Because her parents have done
the same thing for her, or forgot a time or two and worried the child
and had to apologize profusely! ;-)
> I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whateverThey aren't the same thing.
> they want is good.
What if -- in some fantasy land ;-) -- you had a week totally free of
responsibilities and your husband said "I don't see how letting her
read books all day is good." What's up with that? Isn't that up to you?
The problem is that we assume we limit ourselves because we know
better. We *assume* that we'd do all the wrong and bad and excessive
things unless we had someone telling us to stop, or scripts in our
head that "mature" people have that tell us when to stop.
The truth is very few people have ever experienced what it's like to
explore their limits since they were kids and find what's right for
them. They only imagine the consequences based on people who've been
controlled.
That's where unschooling conferences come in handy. If you see the
children of long time unschoolers, you'll never find a better group
of young people. They aren't zombies. They aren't subsisting on Coke
and Cheetos. They're thoughtful and helpful. Even when they're out of
their parents' sight (which is telling! ;-) Again, they aren't
paragons. And they aren't putting on a face. They don't have a need
to take on the self preservationistic behaviors that schooled,
conventionally parented kids do because they know their parents are
on their team.
One big plus to what we discuss about unschooling is that it's not
just pie in the sky theory like the hippies spouted. Many of us now
have grown kids who've turned out just as we trusted all along that
they would :-)
> While saying no all the time and holding them back from being whoWhat gives you the idea unschooled kids are thrown into the jungle
> they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle
> without a guide is not good either.
without a guide?
We're there with them, acting as their partners. We don't tell them
how they should be seeing the world -- eg, "You need to eat organic
whole wheat baked goods because white flour is nutritionless glue,"
-- but we do pull them back from Mack trucks and offer our
understanding without strings attached, eg, "It just seems to make
sense to me to eat whole grains that have nutrients already in them
and lots of micronutrients science might not yet realize are
important." When it's presented as information, especially
information on why I make choices for me, it doesn't feel like control.
> we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancyYou could. You could make big sacrifices and have a big house or
> car....
fancy car. You choose not to.
> I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast...You could. You choose not to.
> My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc.He can do that too. He chooses not to.
And that's important! If you see "no choice" and "no choice that I
want" as the same, it can make you feel trapped. When you see that
you every day choose to get up, to not take off for Bermuda on your
own, choose to make meals for your family, all those things are much
easier! They aren't have tos. They're conscious choices you're making
because there are benefits.
These are very helpful:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Joyce
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<I am sitting here trying to understand what is unschooling. ..I was watching some videos of Dayna Martin explaining what is unschooling and she says that is based on the belief that children learn from self motivation or inner drive and it totally make sense...I even learned that went I was going to college to be a teacher. >>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
There is mouch more to unschooling than that I highly suggest reading at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<What I don't understand is about not having any limits...>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://sandradodd.com/limits
http://sandradodd.com/freedom
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/logic
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good. And even though I was raised the "common" way I don't fallow it totally at all.>>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Here some more to add to above:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<<<<Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc. >>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Is that all you are hearing? Don't do this or don't do that ?
Unschooling is much more about doing than NOT doing.
Why would you let your child fall asleep in a high chair if you know the child is tired and needs a nap?
WHy would you not make your home safe for a toddler or infant to explore?
Do you think a child that has freedom to watch TV will do it all day long and nothing else?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<<So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? >>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Do you think that when your child is a teen that telling them :"no you cannot have sex" will actually stop him from having sex?
Do you think that all the teenagers that are having sex are doing so because their parents did not tell them no( same for drugs)?
Not saying that because I think you shoud tell them to go ahead and do it anyways.
Lets say alchohol for example. My parenst did not say no to alcohol when we were kids. I remember they even gaves a glass of wine to drink starting as early as probably 10, if we wanted to.
I drink very little as an adult. I only got drunk twice in my twenties from not eating while drinking with a boyfriend I had. And even then I did not drink a lot. I was just petit and had not eaten so a little alcohol got me drunk.
We never had to sneak acohol because it as not taboo. Neither we wanted to. We did not want to get drunk either.
My parents drak little and socially. We all ( my siblings and I) have a very healthy relationship with alcohol.
My parents did give us pointers about not driving, staying at friends house if needed or calling for them to pick us up. How not to get drunk by eating and drinking water in between id you felt yourself getting high.
Being drunk and wasted is also not glamourized where I grew up like it is here in the US where young adulst go out to get wasted.
Where I grew up it was not attractive to be drunk. It was also not taboo for teens to drink.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting... and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling is NOT umparenting. I am sorry you got that idea. Unschooling is acutally being more present than in mainstream parenting.
here some more reading that may help:
http://sandradodd.com/attentiveparenting
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet%c2%a0 ( If I let them.... they will......)
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either. Life is full of limits and it starts with us as persons, we can jump as high as a tall man can, or run as fast as a panther..our body has a limit...we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancy car....I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast... My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc. I see that having limits is part of humanity as much as I like it or dislike it there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of life and if you didn't have your body to limit you or a floor that stops you from going lower we
would
be lost in space.>>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope the links above will help you. Please read them ( I know there is a lot to read!)
I leave you with a couple more great links:
http://sandradodd.com/choice%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( the Value of Choice)
http://sandradodd.com/tv%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( TV and Unschooling)
http://sandradodd.com/yes.htmlsaying%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 (Yes to children)
http://sandradodd.com/no%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( saying No to children)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
There is mouch more to unschooling than that I highly suggest reading at:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<What I don't understand is about not having any limits...>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://sandradodd.com/limits
http://sandradodd.com/freedom
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/logic
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good. And even though I was raised the "common" way I don't fallow it totally at all.>>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Here some more to add to above:
http://sandradodd.com/rules
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
<<<<<<<Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc. >>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Is that all you are hearing? Don't do this or don't do that ?
Unschooling is much more about doing than NOT doing.
Why would you let your child fall asleep in a high chair if you know the child is tired and needs a nap?
WHy would you not make your home safe for a toddler or infant to explore?
Do you think a child that has freedom to watch TV will do it all day long and nothing else?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<<So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? >>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Do you think that when your child is a teen that telling them :"no you cannot have sex" will actually stop him from having sex?
Do you think that all the teenagers that are having sex are doing so because their parents did not tell them no( same for drugs)?
Not saying that because I think you shoud tell them to go ahead and do it anyways.
Lets say alchohol for example. My parenst did not say no to alcohol when we were kids. I remember they even gaves a glass of wine to drink starting as early as probably 10, if we wanted to.
I drink very little as an adult. I only got drunk twice in my twenties from not eating while drinking with a boyfriend I had. And even then I did not drink a lot. I was just petit and had not eaten so a little alcohol got me drunk.
We never had to sneak acohol because it as not taboo. Neither we wanted to. We did not want to get drunk either.
My parents drak little and socially. We all ( my siblings and I) have a very healthy relationship with alcohol.
My parents did give us pointers about not driving, staying at friends house if needed or calling for them to pick us up. How not to get drunk by eating and drinking water in between id you felt yourself getting high.
Being drunk and wasted is also not glamourized where I grew up like it is here in the US where young adulst go out to get wasted.
Where I grew up it was not attractive to be drunk. It was also not taboo for teens to drink.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting... and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling is NOT umparenting. I am sorry you got that idea. Unschooling is acutally being more present than in mainstream parenting.
here some more reading that may help:
http://sandradodd.com/attentiveparenting
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet%c2%a0 ( If I let them.... they will......)
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<<<<<Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either. Life is full of limits and it starts with us as persons, we can jump as high as a tall man can, or run as fast as a panther..our body has a limit...we can't live where we want to, I can't have a big house or fancy car....I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast... My husband can't tell his boss he feels like staying home..etc. I see that having limits is part of humanity as much as I like it or dislike it there is nothing we can do about it. It is part of life and if you didn't have your body to limit you or a floor that stops you from going lower we
would
be lost in space.>>>>>>>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I hope the links above will help you. Please read them ( I know there is a lot to read!)
I leave you with a couple more great links:
http://sandradodd.com/choice%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( the Value of Choice)
http://sandradodd.com/tv%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( TV and Unschooling)
http://sandradodd.com/yes.htmlsaying%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 (Yes to children)
http://sandradodd.com/no%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 ( saying No to children)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Coffee Goddess
>>Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc.>>I've been unschooling for 17 years....but I also have a 19 month old--so I can speak to this as a mom with a little one, AND a long-time unschooler.
My little one likes to get into the kitchen drawers....so I put the knives in a knife block on the counter, where she can't reach. That doesn't put a stop to her exploring, it doesn't mean I have to tell her "no", it means that she can explore safely. That's not having "no limits"--letting baby juggle knives--it's making her environment safe and fun for her. That's just one example--but shows how *I* change rather than expecting my baby to. It means we don't keep breakables out where baby can reach, it means we keep the lowest bookshelves filled with her books and toys, it means that if she wants to play on the computer, someone sits with her and helps her do it safely, helps her figure out the mouse, shows her slideshows of herself, helps her find elmo on netflix and shows her how to find what she wants to watch next. If she wants to jump on the couch or the bed, her dad or I stands next to the edge to catch her. If she wants to go down the stairs,
we stay with her early and often, and soon she knows how to well and doesn't have to be gated out of them. It means she's able to try any foods that the rest of the family is eating, but we might chew it up for her first, or cut it in half, or blow on it for her. We are there to help make the world accessible to her. I imagine typical parents would do something more like--You can't jump on the bed because it's not safe. You can't eat hot dogs or grapes because you could choke. You can't go down the stairs because you might fall. You can't touch the computer because it's expensive. You can't play in the kitchen because you might get cut.
>>So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting...and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.>>My other two children are teenagers--my eldest will be 18 this year! I am fully and completely involved in my kids' lives, and their friends, and their interests. My kids are "allowed" to have sex, drink, do drugs, etc--as I don't limit them--but do they? No. They drink with us sometimes, if we make something yummy, but usually just sips, as they are not interested in drinking until they can "feel it". They've also been exposed to drugs and haven't had any interest in trying, despite it being completely acceptable in our area and social circles. My eldest went away for more than a month with other teens, and didn't come back pregnant or in jail ;) My kids know what responsible drinking means, what responsible sex means, and how to say "no" if they aren't interested. We all trust each other fully to talk about our needs and help each other achieve them. Being the parent of an unschooled teen is NOTHING like being the parent of a "normal" teen.
(Or at least what I hear--I've never done it!)
Dana
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otherstar
>>>>What I don't understand is about not having any limits...I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good.<<<<I am not as seasoned as those that have already responded so I might be able to offer a slightly different perspective. It is not that there are no limits. The world we live in is full of limits. What I try to do is remove the arbitrary limits and help my kids understand the natural limits. I encourage them to ask questions. The traditional phrase "because I said so" is a phrase I try to avoid. I am constantly trying to build up the relationship that I have with my kids. If they trust me and know that I don't go around saying no just for the fun of it, they are more likely to trust me when there is a limit that arises. When I do have to set a limit, I try to make sure that it is not completely arbitrary and I try to make sure that my kids have a voice in the decision making process. I am thinking of things like being loud and waking up their dad in the middle of the night. We have had to impose a limit on the amount of noise that can be made in the middle of the night because their dad needs his sleep so that he can get up and go to work in the morning. I take the time to explain to them why their dad needs sleep and why it is important for their dad to work.
>>>> Anyway, to be an unschooling family let say, I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair, I shouldn't childproof the house because that limits where he can go or explore, no cribs, no no's, TV all day any day, etc.<<<<I don't think about it in terms of limits. I think of it more in terms of treating my kids how I would like to be treated or how I would treat my spouse or any other adult. If my spouse were to fall asleep in an uncomfortable position, I would likely wake him up so he could go lay down somewhere more comfortable. If my child falls asleep in an uncomfortable position, I will gently move them to a place that is more comfortable. My house isn't childproofed per se but I have made sure that it is safe. There are no knives or other sharp objects. I try to make sure that choking hazards are removed. I also make sure that I have put up anything that is super important to me. I also try to have realistic expectations. I don't expect my 1 year old to be able to keep herself safe from potential hazards so I stay close so that I can catch her if I need to. I try to create an environment where I don't have to say no. We tend to have the TV on pretty much all day when we are home. It is interesting to note that my 1 year old ignores and my almost 3 year old only watches it in small doses. I am sure that the links the others have provided are full of useful stuff. My 8 year old and 5 year old don't care about the TV most of the time. It is just there for background noise.
>>>>So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right? I am asking this because I really want to understand how it works, because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting...and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.<<<<<It is not about never saying no. It is about explaining and helping them navigate the world. It's about giving kids a voice. I say no to my kids from time to time but they are given the opportunity to challenge that. My 8 year old wanted me to buy her a Nintendo DS. We didn't have the money so I had to say no. I could have chosen to buy the DS rather than buying groceries but that wouldn't have made sense. Her desire for a DS did not trump the families need to eat. It would have been ridiculous for me to say yes. I took the time to explain why I was saying no. She took it to heart and found a way to save up her own money and get it anyway. I am always explaining things to my children.
If the average child is 13 and wants to have sex, there is a good chance that you will never know about it. Most parents have made sex into a taboo topic. If a kid starts asking about sex, most parents shut down. I think about the things that I did as a teen. If I had asked my parents permission, they would have definitely said no. So, I didn't ask them. I just did it. Most of the time, they never found out so there was never a need to have a discussion with them. My goal is to create a relationship where no is not the default answer. My goal is to get my child to come to me so that we can discuss things in a sensible manner. If my 13 year old comes to me with questions about sex, I am going to answer them and be up front about them. My 8 year old has been asking a lot of questions about sex because she hears about it in the world around her. I also try not to think about everything in terms of yes or no. There are a lot of gray areas between yes and no. Instead of saying yes or no, my family tries to explore the areas in between.
>>>>Maybe some of you that have homeschool for long time and have children that had grown can help me understand how all of this works. I don't see how letting a child watch tv all day or do whatever they want is good. While saying no all the time and holding them back from being who they are and want to be is not good, throwing them in the jungle without a guide is not good either.<<<<I would never ever throw my children out into the world without some kind of guidance. I do not think that the goal of unschooling is to throw your children to the wolves. The way I understand it is that you help your children find their own natural limits in a respectful environment. My children are given the same respect and voice that the adults in the house have. If my children want to do something, we talk about it and we do it together. My kids are all 8 and under so I still do a lot of hand holding. I don't know what unschooling will look like with the older kids but with the younger ones it is great because I can slowly see them gaining confidence in themselves and their own abilities. Instead of telling them no, I tell them sure, go ahead. If you need anything, I am here to help. My understanding is that the basis of unschooling is honesty and communication. More important is knowing when to talk and when to shut up. : -)
Connie (mom of 4)
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plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "missalexmissalex" <missalexmissalex@...> wrote:
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>My new goal is not to be radical as much as awesome.Well, but if "awesomeness" is something you value - one of your principles - and you're striving to live more by that principle, to be more awesome and invite more awesomeness into your life, then you could very well be moving closer to radical unschooling in the process. To some extent it depends on what you mean by "awesome". If you mean that you're working on being more positive, more energetic, more thoughtful, more open to possibilities.... gosh that's sounding a lot like radical unschooling. If "awesome" comes with a list of dos and don'ts, a set of rules defining "awesomeness" then not so much.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Monica Van Stelton <tatyland_usa@...> wrote:
Think about what you wrote there, for a second - if kids *do* know what they want and don't want then they aren't looking for "whatever, whenever" they're looking to have their needs and desires met. That's something that we parents can stand in the way of, or we can find ways to help. Sometimes it's not possible for a person (of any age) to get exactly what she wants in exactly the way she wants it right this very minute - and unschoolers aren't trying to pretend otherwise. Rather, parents get to be a source of ideas and options. Instead of saying "no" we can say "lets figure this out". That's valuable! It sets us up as trustworthy advocates for our kids, the people they Want to talk to, want to ask for help and advice.
Kids don't want to be hurt, but when asking parents for help doesn't get them anywhere, they're more likely to risk getting hurt to get what they want. That's natural human behavior - we're determined! We persevere! When kids have a lot of "extra" limits and rules then they'll persevere in getting around those things to get what they want. When kids don't have those extra limits, they get to persevere in doing what they really want to do. They get to be exciting, passionate people!
"Whatever, whenever" Is unhealthy - because its not about helping kids fill their needs and desires. Its dis-engaged parenting, whereas unschooling is More engaged parenting. Instead of "whatever" its "let me help". Instead of "whenever" its "let me get these clothes in the dryer and I'll be happy to..." or "it will take a few weeks to save up for that, shall we put it on the wish list?"
I have a 16yo who is "allowed" to do those things if he wants to. He's not some kind of terrible delinquent. He has friends in their late teens/early twenties who have the sorts of typical parties of kids that age - lots of over-the-top drinking - and Ray chooses not to go to those, or stay very long once the drinking gets going. He finds that all kind of dull and silly.
Since Ray is "allowed" to do what he wants, he doesn't have the need to "prove himself" that a lot of teenageers experience. That takes some of the pressure off him where sex is concerned. He doesn't have to prove he's a man by getting laid, so he can think about feelings and relationships - his own and those of any potential partner - that's not a luxury that a lot of teens have.
So, one example of being proactive might be noticing that your guy tends to get drowsy when he's in his high-chair and rearrange how you're doing things so that he's not falling asleep in an uncomfortable position. It might mean trying out some slings so you can carry him while he's falling asleep. It might mean changing when and how you do dinner, if he's falling asleep in the meal.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>> What I don't understand is about not having any limits...I really like some of the unschooling ideas or principles, and I understand that children are not dumb and they know what they want or not... but I can't understand the no limit idea. I can't understand that letting your child do whatever, whenever is good.*****************
Think about what you wrote there, for a second - if kids *do* know what they want and don't want then they aren't looking for "whatever, whenever" they're looking to have their needs and desires met. That's something that we parents can stand in the way of, or we can find ways to help. Sometimes it's not possible for a person (of any age) to get exactly what she wants in exactly the way she wants it right this very minute - and unschoolers aren't trying to pretend otherwise. Rather, parents get to be a source of ideas and options. Instead of saying "no" we can say "lets figure this out". That's valuable! It sets us up as trustworthy advocates for our kids, the people they Want to talk to, want to ask for help and advice.
Kids don't want to be hurt, but when asking parents for help doesn't get them anywhere, they're more likely to risk getting hurt to get what they want. That's natural human behavior - we're determined! We persevere! When kids have a lot of "extra" limits and rules then they'll persevere in getting around those things to get what they want. When kids don't have those extra limits, they get to persevere in doing what they really want to do. They get to be exciting, passionate people!
>>because it sounds to me if this is the case that unschooling goes hand in hand with permissive parenting...and that is proven to be unhealthy for children in a way.***************
"Whatever, whenever" Is unhealthy - because its not about helping kids fill their needs and desires. Its dis-engaged parenting, whereas unschooling is More engaged parenting. Instead of "whatever" its "let me help". Instead of "whenever" its "let me get these clothes in the dryer and I'll be happy to..." or "it will take a few weeks to save up for that, shall we put it on the wish list?"
>>So of one day my son turns 13 and he wants to have sex then I can't say no, same with drugs and alcohol...If he wants to go party and comeback the next day is ok too...IS this right?******************
I have a 16yo who is "allowed" to do those things if he wants to. He's not some kind of terrible delinquent. He has friends in their late teens/early twenties who have the sorts of typical parties of kids that age - lots of over-the-top drinking - and Ray chooses not to go to those, or stay very long once the drinking gets going. He finds that all kind of dull and silly.
Since Ray is "allowed" to do what he wants, he doesn't have the need to "prove himself" that a lot of teenageers experience. That takes some of the pressure off him where sex is concerned. He doesn't have to prove he's a man by getting laid, so he can think about feelings and relationships - his own and those of any potential partner - that's not a luxury that a lot of teens have.
>>I can't tell my baby I am tired you can fix your own breakfast...When he gets older, though, you can have snacks on low shelves that are all ready to go, so that you're not having to cook if you're too tired *and* he can still have breakfast. That's a quick and dirty example of a way to work around a natural limit. Moms get tired! But that doesn't always have to be a reason to say "no" if we're creative and do some thinking ahead of time. A surprising number of limits can fall by the wayside with some pre-planning - that's why, in families with several kids there tend to be less rules on the youngest than there were for the oldest: parents learn what to expect and can think ahead more. Happily, you don't have to wait until you have three kids to do that, though - you can learn to do it Right Now! You can learn to be more proactive. One of the things this list is for is to help parents figure out how to do that.
>>I don't have to have any limit for my son, so he calls asleep when he wants to even if he is in his highchair**************
So, one example of being proactive might be noticing that your guy tends to get drowsy when he's in his high-chair and rearrange how you're doing things so that he's not falling asleep in an uncomfortable position. It might mean trying out some slings so you can carry him while he's falling asleep. It might mean changing when and how you do dinner, if he's falling asleep in the meal.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Debra Rossing
>Life is full of limitsYes, life is full of REAL limits...most of the limits on kids are
arbitrary parent-imposed limits. For instance, "you must go to bed at 8
pm"...but then once they reach a certain age, that moves to 9 or 10 or
whatever, and sometimes it's okay to stay up late (like when us parents
are visiting at a friend's house and the kids "get to" stay up) even if
you're only 7. How confusing is that?
Think about real limits - can't have a snowball fight in the Sahara
(unless you have a snow making machine and lots of water shipped in);
can't have chocolate chip cookies without chocolate chips; have to eat
something, drink water, sleep, poop on something of a routine schedule
or you risk death - though some CHOOSE to not eat or drink as a form of
protest for example knowing they risk death - it's a choice.
Think about "have to" anything -
Don't have to wash dishes...can eat out, use disposables, eat right from
the packages, discard and buy more plates, eat off the encrusted plates
(sounds yuck but hey, it is an option).
Don't have to go to work...yeah, you'll lose the job but that's a
choice; but what about money for food, house, etc? Ah, those are choices
- you could camp on public land, scavenge dumpsters for food, etc. Okay
so maybe that's not appetizing so you CHOOSE to find a way to make
money. See? Going to work is a choice.
Don't have to make meals for the family...can order from restaurants,
buy premade meals at the market, turn them loose in the kitchen on their
own, and so on. Choosing to gift your family with a meal is your Choice.
Once your life is freed from a 'have to' mindset to an "I choose"
mindset, things change.
--Deb R
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 19, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Justice Riccardi wrote:
I bet the "He doesn't listen to me" comes up on the unschooling
forums more than "She doesn't read yet."
But the advice isn't to teach them self control. The advice is to be
with them, redirecting them, help them with better ways of being.
property or do things that are unsafe?
Do you think that telling them that something is hurtful, destructive
or unsafe makes them stop?
Yes, typical kids do do unsocial things before they can understand
*and* stop themselves from doing it. And, no, telling them before
they're ready to control their impulses doesn't help at all.
Atypical children may have more intense reactions. Their
understanding may not develop at the same pace. They may have more
quirks than typical children. But they aren't ahuman. They're going
to react to being told what to do just like typical children -- and
adults. Perhaps more intensely!
I'm not dismissing what it's like to raise an atypical child. But
there are many here who *did* trust that what their atypical children
needed was support, trust and help, who didn't resort to teaching,
whose children are flourishing.
comfortable, it wouldn't be about unschooling. It would be about
whatever.
While not everyone here needs to be a radical unschooler, the
discussion is about radical unschooling approaches to problems. There
may be dozens of approaches to every problem a parent can face. There
may be many that will make a parent uncomfortable so she'll dismiss
them. There are only a few places on the planet where people can
present a problem and have a handful to dozens of answers that help
them build relationships while they approach the problem.
It doesn't help to water the information down with conventional
teaching and control ideas that can be found anywhere. If you
couldn't figure out how to do it, couldn't make it work, don't trust
that it could work, that doesn't negate the experiences of the
unschoolers who did find ways to make it work.
conventional parenting handbook.
The problem is that the majority of people have experience with two
kinds of kids: controlled kids and permissively parented kids. They
have *zero* experience with kids who are raised with "Let's figure
out how to do that," rather than limits. Who have rhythms to their
days rather than routines and schedules. Who find that joy is better
than balance.
There are people here who began unschooling over 15 years ago who
have grown children and not a bit of the above is necessary to raise
caring, thoughtful adults.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> even if i explain why jumping on the baby is not a good ideaDo you think that works with typical children?
> because it hurts her, blah blah blah.
I bet the "He doesn't listen to me" comes up on the unschooling
forums more than "She doesn't read yet."
But the advice isn't to teach them self control. The advice is to be
with them, redirecting them, help them with better ways of being.
> there has to be a limit for that. for injuring people/animals, forDo you think that typical kids don't injure animals or destroy
> destroying property, for being safe.
>
property or do things that are unsafe?
Do you think that telling them that something is hurtful, destructive
or unsafe makes them stop?
Yes, typical kids do do unsocial things before they can understand
*and* stop themselves from doing it. And, no, telling them before
they're ready to control their impulses doesn't help at all.
Atypical children may have more intense reactions. Their
understanding may not develop at the same pace. They may have more
quirks than typical children. But they aren't ahuman. They're going
to react to being told what to do just like typical children -- and
adults. Perhaps more intensely!
I'm not dismissing what it's like to raise an atypical child. But
there are many here who *did* trust that what their atypical children
needed was support, trust and help, who didn't resort to teaching,
whose children are flourishing.
> i also have to tailor it for my family, for my kids, and for myIf this list were about how people tailor unschooling to make their
> values and comfort level.
>
comfortable, it wouldn't be about unschooling. It would be about
whatever.
While not everyone here needs to be a radical unschooler, the
discussion is about radical unschooling approaches to problems. There
may be dozens of approaches to every problem a parent can face. There
may be many that will make a parent uncomfortable so she'll dismiss
them. There are only a few places on the planet where people can
present a problem and have a handful to dozens of answers that help
them build relationships while they approach the problem.
It doesn't help to water the information down with conventional
teaching and control ideas that can be found anywhere. If you
couldn't figure out how to do it, couldn't make it work, don't trust
that it could work, that doesn't negate the experiences of the
unschoolers who did find ways to make it work.
> limits are necessary, especially for younger children. that's whereThis is pretty much standard party line straight from the
> you build the basis of self-control. routines and schedules are
> important for young children. that's how they learn balance.
>
conventional parenting handbook.
The problem is that the majority of people have experience with two
kinds of kids: controlled kids and permissively parented kids. They
have *zero* experience with kids who are raised with "Let's figure
out how to do that," rather than limits. Who have rhythms to their
days rather than routines and schedules. Who find that joy is better
than balance.
There are people here who began unschooling over 15 years ago who
have grown children and not a bit of the above is necessary to raise
caring, thoughtful adults.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
Do you think that typical kids don't injure animals or destroy
property or do things that are unsafe?
Do you think that telling them that something is hurtful, destructive
or unsafe makes them stop?
Yes, typical kids do do unsocial things before they can understand
*and* stop themselves from doing it. And, no, telling them before
they're ready to control their impulses doesn't help at all.
**********************
exactly. one phrase/concept i've encountered wrt "atypical" children, that i think applies to ANY child is the notion that we as parents, with mature frontal lobes (hopefully) have the responsibility of being our children's "surrogate frontal lobe" until/while their own is developing it's abilities in areas such as impulse control, predictive skills, etc.
young kids' frontal lobes are not mature. the research seems to show that the frontal lobe does not mature fully until sometime between age 14 annd 31!! at age 5, it's about 25% of it's full maturity (this is of course an average - i'd be willing to bet that kids whose parents take their role as surrogate frontal lobe seriously and are skilled at it, might mature faster than *that same child* would have (not than other children!) had their parent tried to "teach them" cognitive/brain skills for which their exisiting brain was not ready.
********************************
Atypical children may have more intense reactions. Their
understanding may not develop at the same pace. They may have more
quirks than typical children. But they aren't ahuman. They're going
to react to being told what to do just like typical children -- and
adults. Perhaps more intensely!
************************
exactly! and those reactions put them and their brains in a state that makes it even *harder* to absorb the "lesson" or develop new skills!
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
property or do things that are unsafe?
Do you think that telling them that something is hurtful, destructive
or unsafe makes them stop?
Yes, typical kids do do unsocial things before they can understand
*and* stop themselves from doing it. And, no, telling them before
they're ready to control their impulses doesn't help at all.
**********************
exactly. one phrase/concept i've encountered wrt "atypical" children, that i think applies to ANY child is the notion that we as parents, with mature frontal lobes (hopefully) have the responsibility of being our children's "surrogate frontal lobe" until/while their own is developing it's abilities in areas such as impulse control, predictive skills, etc.
young kids' frontal lobes are not mature. the research seems to show that the frontal lobe does not mature fully until sometime between age 14 annd 31!! at age 5, it's about 25% of it's full maturity (this is of course an average - i'd be willing to bet that kids whose parents take their role as surrogate frontal lobe seriously and are skilled at it, might mature faster than *that same child* would have (not than other children!) had their parent tried to "teach them" cognitive/brain skills for which their exisiting brain was not ready.
********************************
Atypical children may have more intense reactions. Their
understanding may not develop at the same pace. They may have more
quirks than typical children. But they aren't ahuman. They're going
to react to being told what to do just like typical children -- and
adults. Perhaps more intensely!
************************
exactly! and those reactions put them and their brains in a state that makes it even *harder* to absorb the "lesson" or develop new skills!
Lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
>>>>> routines and schedules are important for young children. that's how they learn balance.<<<<Routines and schedules do not equal balance. Routines and schedules create predictability. Routines and schedules create a narrow box. Sometimes, routines and schedules limit creativity as well as spontaneity. How do you teach a child to handle the unexpected if everything is part of a routine or schedule? Life is full of unexpected events that cannot be scheduled or cannot be anticipated in a daily routine.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> you can go overboard with any parenting technique. just find theYa, know, this attitude pops up every once in a while to advise
> groove that works for you instead of trying to fit all the way into
> one box.
people against accepting unschooling information lock stock and barrel.
And I don't get it. This is a tiny niche off in a corner of the
world. People can't stumble across this list first thing when they're
looking for conventional parenting advice. They have to already be
looking for something other than conventional ways and specifically
looking for unschooling to find this place.
People can get conventional parenting advice anywhere. When people
come here they should be expecting to hear a different approach. Why
*would* they want the same information they can get at Parenting.com?
In fact, this list is sort of like a little mom and pop natural food
store off on a side street that someone practically needs to know is
there to find it. The person shopping there isn't there because they
don't know the Super Duper Food Mart doesn't exist. That's not
possible! They're there specifically for something different. If they
wanted same old, same old, they'd be at the Super Duper. If they
don't like what mom and pop have, they know the Super Duper will
still be there. For someone to stand in the mom and pop store and
tell shoppers they don't have to only buy from the mom and pop store
doesn't make sense. And is a tad insulting of the shoppers'
intelligence. How could they possibly have gotten here without
knowing that?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Justice Riccardi
Wow! how I am supposed to read these responses and not be a little offended? I've never been on a forum or listserv or support group and felt so attacked. sorry i don't fit into your strategies. sorry i gave the wrong advice. sorry i do things a little different. sorry i'm "shopping" in your mom and pop shop. i found this group because i want to unschool my child as a homeschooling technique. i don't intend on doing radical unschooling in every way. i agree it works for education because it caters to my son's strengths and weaknesses. but it doesn't fit us for everything. it's my child, my family, so i can pick and choose what i want to use for what and from where. why do moms keep judging and criticizing each other when we should be praising and encouraging one another instead? i hold my ground that there isn't a one size fits all for parenting. what makes some people unschooling experts that can say the right and wrong way of doing things? i thought
unschooling was all about there not being a right or wrong way. for being so non-conventional, you certainly aren't very accepting.
on the topic of limits, do you have a child with bipolar disorder? or any mental illness for that matter? how about a child who's experienced severe trauma, loss, and grief? i'm not saying i'm parent of the year, or that i do all the right things, but i am saying that to judge my parenting style without walking in my shoes discredits you automatically in my eyes. i'm here because i want to learn more about how unschooling fits into my life, but maybe i'm in the wrong place.
Justice
unschooling was all about there not being a right or wrong way. for being so non-conventional, you certainly aren't very accepting.
on the topic of limits, do you have a child with bipolar disorder? or any mental illness for that matter? how about a child who's experienced severe trauma, loss, and grief? i'm not saying i'm parent of the year, or that i do all the right things, but i am saying that to judge my parenting style without walking in my shoes discredits you automatically in my eyes. i'm here because i want to learn more about how unschooling fits into my life, but maybe i'm in the wrong place.
Justice
Justice Riccardi
I never said that typical kids don't do those things. what i've heard from unschoolers is that by explaining the reasoning behind the "rules" is what makes the children follow them on their own, without having to nag them or tell them no. maybe i'm missing something? and i never said my child or any child is ahuman (whatever that means). just that there's no one size fits all in parenting, and i stand by that statement.
Justice
Justice
Justice Riccardi
going with your shopping analogy, i like eating organic produce from the mom and pop shop and twinkies from walmart in the same meal :)
and it didn't sound like that person writing in was "shopping" in the mom and pop shop, it sounded like they were standing in the street deciding which way to go.
Justice
and it didn't sound like that person writing in was "shopping" in the mom and pop shop, it sounded like they were standing in the street deciding which way to go.
Justice
plaidpanties666
> Think about "have to" anything -"Have to" is probably the biggest limit unschoolers let go of. **The** conventional wisdom about parenting revolves around "have to" in the sense of "you Have to teach your kids certain things or they will suffer for it." But its not true. Kids can (and unschooling kids do) learn what they need to know without being taught - that's as true for "life lessons" as it is for reading. It isn't that you "have to" parent a certain way to unschool, its that by stepping away from the idea of "have to" entirely, you get a whole new perspective on life and relationships, one that happens to be called radical unschooling.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Justice Riccardi <j_riccardi@...> wrote:
Arguably, its not even possible to teach self-control. At best, you can teach adherence to dogma. Self control is intrinsic (hence the name). You can Help kids move forward in developing self control, but some of that is also heavily dependent on temperament and physiological development. A child (person) with special needs, Needs more help, sometimes different kinds of help than typical kids, often for longer than typical kids. Needing help isn't the same as needing teaching.
Thinking in terms of limits is faulty thinking. There needs to be a better Solution for that, one that doesn't endanger other people. Maybe it means your son needs a helper presesnt all the time when he's around other people - that was the case with Ray for awhile, he needed someone at his side in any social situation to help him understand what was going on and help him get his needs met or else he would attack people.
If a routine is important to a child, that child will develop a routine - that's not something you have to impose, although many parents find they have to Adapt to it. A child's natural routine doesn't always look like banker's hours.
My 8yo has a routine where she has a solid chunk of focused play/work time twice a day, she has a couple chunks of time where she does more relaxed play or watches tv, she has a chunk of time in the evening where she's very active. This isn't something she's been given, its something my partner and I have watched develop. Its not a "schedule" in the sense that you can set your watch by it (okay, the evening burst of energy was for awhile...6:30-8:30 every night for a couple years) but its a regular routine that we know about and can plan other activities around.
My 16yo has a more fluid schedule these days, one that revolves around his various work and classes. Since he's so very social, his routines have always been subject to other people, and when he was little that meant it helped him a whole lot for *me* to have a regular routine. If I was all over the place, so was he, and that stressed him out (and he'd attack people or detroy things). He also needed a good bit of order around the house - a place for everything and everything in its place. Otherwise he wasn't able to find things, and that would stress him out. So, in order to meet his needs, *I* became more organized and developed a routine. I didn't do it to teach him a lesson about balance, I saw what helped him Be more balanced and changed my own behavior to create that. Now he's well able to adapt to changing schedules - without hurting people or destroying things.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>my son has special needs and major impulse control issues. i need to teach him self-control because he doesn't learn it on his own.*****************
Arguably, its not even possible to teach self-control. At best, you can teach adherence to dogma. Self control is intrinsic (hence the name). You can Help kids move forward in developing self control, but some of that is also heavily dependent on temperament and physiological development. A child (person) with special needs, Needs more help, sometimes different kinds of help than typical kids, often for longer than typical kids. Needing help isn't the same as needing teaching.
>>even if i explain why ...Explaining isn't a great solution even with typical kids. With young children and higer needs kids, its virtually useless. Instead of explaining, look for other solutions, other ways to meet the same needs, preferably proactively.
>>even if i explain why jumping on the baby is not a good idea because it hurts her, blah blah blah. he still does it. there has to be a limit for that.*******************
Thinking in terms of limits is faulty thinking. There needs to be a better Solution for that, one that doesn't endanger other people. Maybe it means your son needs a helper presesnt all the time when he's around other people - that was the case with Ray for awhile, he needed someone at his side in any social situation to help him understand what was going on and help him get his needs met or else he would attack people.
>>routines and schedules are important for young children. that's how they learn balance.********************
If a routine is important to a child, that child will develop a routine - that's not something you have to impose, although many parents find they have to Adapt to it. A child's natural routine doesn't always look like banker's hours.
My 8yo has a routine where she has a solid chunk of focused play/work time twice a day, she has a couple chunks of time where she does more relaxed play or watches tv, she has a chunk of time in the evening where she's very active. This isn't something she's been given, its something my partner and I have watched develop. Its not a "schedule" in the sense that you can set your watch by it (okay, the evening burst of energy was for awhile...6:30-8:30 every night for a couple years) but its a regular routine that we know about and can plan other activities around.
My 16yo has a more fluid schedule these days, one that revolves around his various work and classes. Since he's so very social, his routines have always been subject to other people, and when he was little that meant it helped him a whole lot for *me* to have a regular routine. If I was all over the place, so was he, and that stressed him out (and he'd attack people or detroy things). He also needed a good bit of order around the house - a place for everything and everything in its place. Otherwise he wasn't able to find things, and that would stress him out. So, in order to meet his needs, *I* became more organized and developed a routine. I didn't do it to teach him a lesson about balance, I saw what helped him Be more balanced and changed my own behavior to create that. Now he's well able to adapt to changing schedules - without hurting people or destroying things.
>>> balance is essential for all life. you can go overboard with any parenting technique.A certain amount of balance is a good thing, but its possible to have a "tyranny of balance" where you prevent yourself, or your kids from doing things for which you are passionate. Its Good to be passionate. There's a difference between being passionate, and being extreme.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
diana jenner
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Justice Riccardi <j_riccardi@...>wrote:
attacked or rejected - your statements are, your beliefs are being
challenged. You brought them here, to an unschooling discussion board, and
they're being discussed indeed!
I told folks for years and years and YEARS that single parenting was in no
way, shape or form going to be a part of my future. Didn't work for me, was
outside of the tenets of parenting I carried in my Soul. Yep, then Mitch
died and I became a single mama. That which I was NEVER, EVER gonna be. And
here, I've blossomed. This path has led me more places than I could have
imagined on the less-rocky, well-paved path I had laid out for myself.
What I mean to say is, what you hold in your heart as True about the Radical
Unschooling Life and it's impossibilities, those of us who have done the
work (on ourselves and in our daily lives) know *because we live it* that
your Truths are false.
Coming here with False Truths about a Life you have yet to see as possible,
is insulting to the work done by the contributors here. It's a lot of work
to be present with our kids; it's a blessing to have the opportunity to
share our gifts with folks who want to know what this life can be like.
Everyday I live with unschooling principles in our Whole Life, our Whole
Atypical Unplanned Joyful Life. Quite possible, quite Real.
examining principles and limits and beliefs and truths will.
There are lots of places, as Joyce has said, where support and reassurance
for doing the same ol' thing, all over teh interwebs; one need not look
far.
If you want to be challenged to think about the roots of the Truths you
hold, these gold mines are few and far between, you're already here <3
7.5. Living with me as his unlabeled mama who mucks her own way through
grief and depression has had a HUGE impact on our life and the daily choices
we make.
And yes, unschooling - Whole Life Unschooling - saved our sanity and our
relationship.
Hannahbearski.wordpress.com began as the blog to update folks on my
daughter's illness and is now our family's journey blog.
Hannahsashes.blogspot.com is the blog I keep to share the stories of her
continued impact on the world.
list* - I, too, expect the advice given and the Truths shared to be those in
line with how unschooling *works* in real life, not support for excuses
we've all overcome to make it work.
You're here for a reason, it's the right place. Hang out and read, you'll
see we're all pretty normal - more tenacious maybe, than you're used to -
certainly folks you'd like to know <3
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Q-TIP, my favorite mantra: Quit Taking It Personally. YOU are not being
>
> Wow! how I am supposed to read these responses and not be a little
> offended? I've never been on a forum or listserv or support group and felt
> so attacked. sorry i don't fit into your strategies. sorry i gave the wrong
> advice. sorry i do things a little different. sorry i'm "shopping" in your
> mom and pop shop. i found this group because i want to unschool my child as
> a homeschooling technique. i don't intend on doing radical unschooling in
> every way. i agree it works for education because it caters to my son's
> strengths and weaknesses. but it doesn't fit us for everything. it's my
> child, my family, so i can pick and choose what i want to use for what and
> from where.
>
attacked or rejected - your statements are, your beliefs are being
challenged. You brought them here, to an unschooling discussion board, and
they're being discussed indeed!
I told folks for years and years and YEARS that single parenting was in no
way, shape or form going to be a part of my future. Didn't work for me, was
outside of the tenets of parenting I carried in my Soul. Yep, then Mitch
died and I became a single mama. That which I was NEVER, EVER gonna be. And
here, I've blossomed. This path has led me more places than I could have
imagined on the less-rocky, well-paved path I had laid out for myself.
What I mean to say is, what you hold in your heart as True about the Radical
Unschooling Life and it's impossibilities, those of us who have done the
work (on ourselves and in our daily lives) know *because we live it* that
your Truths are false.
Coming here with False Truths about a Life you have yet to see as possible,
is insulting to the work done by the contributors here. It's a lot of work
to be present with our kids; it's a blessing to have the opportunity to
share our gifts with folks who want to know what this life can be like.
Everyday I live with unschooling principles in our Whole Life, our Whole
Atypical Unplanned Joyful Life. Quite possible, quite Real.
> why do moms keep judging and criticizing each other when we should beStatus quo and hand patting reassurances, don't change lives in the way
> praising and encouraging one another instead? i hold my ground that there
> isn't a one size fits all for parenting. what makes some people unschooling
> experts that can say the right and wrong way of doing things? i thought
> unschooling was all about there not being a right or wrong way. for being
> so non-conventional, you certainly aren't very accepting.
>
examining principles and limits and beliefs and truths will.
There are lots of places, as Joyce has said, where support and reassurance
for doing the same ol' thing, all over teh interwebs; one need not look
far.
If you want to be challenged to think about the roots of the Truths you
hold, these gold mines are few and far between, you're already here <3
> on the topic of limits, do you have a child with bipolar disorder? or anyI do. My son, Hayden, now 11, lost his father at 2 and his older sister at
> mental illness for that matter? how about a child who's experienced severe
> trauma, loss, and grief?
>
7.5. Living with me as his unlabeled mama who mucks her own way through
grief and depression has had a HUGE impact on our life and the daily choices
we make.
And yes, unschooling - Whole Life Unschooling - saved our sanity and our
relationship.
Hannahbearski.wordpress.com began as the blog to update folks on my
daughter's illness and is now our family's journey blog.
Hannahsashes.blogspot.com is the blog I keep to share the stories of her
continued impact on the world.
> i'm not saying i'm parent of the year, or that i do all the right things,We can only know what you choose to share with *an unschooling discussion
> but i am saying that to judge my parenting style without walking in my shoes
> discredits you automatically in my eyes. i'm here because i want to learn
> more about how unschooling fits into my life, but maybe i'm in the wrong
> place.
>
list* - I, too, expect the advice given and the Truths shared to be those in
line with how unschooling *works* in real life, not support for excuses
we've all overcome to make it work.
You're here for a reason, it's the right place. Hang out and read, you'll
see we're all pretty normal - more tenacious maybe, than you're used to -
certainly folks you'd like to know <3
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Justice Riccardi <j_riccardi@...> wrote:
Ahhhh! Yes, you've misunderstood something important. Helping kids see the reasons for things doesn't guarantee they'll agree with those reasons, what it does is give them more to work with. They get to Think about reasons and weigh some reasons against other reasons. They get to Choose.
Rules don't guarantee that kids will follow rules. Rules very very frequently result in people finding ways to break, bend and shimmy around the rules.
As I said in another post, "explaining" isn't often a very good strategy for getting someone to change his or her behavior. Its generally better to have something else to offer, more options, better ideas. Its better still to be aware of needs and desires on a more general level so that you can Anticipate and offer those options and idea proactively. That way you don't set yourself up for conflict.
A whooooole lot of the nuts and bolts of radical unschooling has to do with proactivity. When you're proactive regularly, kids come to know they can trust you to help them get their needs and desires met. Knowing they can trust you, they're waaaaaaaay more likely to listen to your reasons and give them more weight in their decision making, and they're also more likely to listen to the occasional explanation.
The important thing is that its not good to Start with trying to explain. Start by thinking ahead, do more planning, more advance problem solving. If you know that your kids "always" does xyz then find a new set of options to change the situation and make xyz a non-issue. The more of that you do, the less you'll find you "need" rules and limits. Try it! You can start being proactive without changing any other part of your parenting. And even if you come to decide that you want to stick with some rules, being proactive is an extremely valuable parenting tool, one that you'll be glad to have in your "tool box".
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>what i've heard from unschoolers is that by explaining the reasoning behind the "rules" is what makes the children follow them on their own, without having to nag them or tell them no. maybe i'm missing something?******************
Ahhhh! Yes, you've misunderstood something important. Helping kids see the reasons for things doesn't guarantee they'll agree with those reasons, what it does is give them more to work with. They get to Think about reasons and weigh some reasons against other reasons. They get to Choose.
Rules don't guarantee that kids will follow rules. Rules very very frequently result in people finding ways to break, bend and shimmy around the rules.
As I said in another post, "explaining" isn't often a very good strategy for getting someone to change his or her behavior. Its generally better to have something else to offer, more options, better ideas. Its better still to be aware of needs and desires on a more general level so that you can Anticipate and offer those options and idea proactively. That way you don't set yourself up for conflict.
A whooooole lot of the nuts and bolts of radical unschooling has to do with proactivity. When you're proactive regularly, kids come to know they can trust you to help them get their needs and desires met. Knowing they can trust you, they're waaaaaaaay more likely to listen to your reasons and give them more weight in their decision making, and they're also more likely to listen to the occasional explanation.
The important thing is that its not good to Start with trying to explain. Start by thinking ahead, do more planning, more advance problem solving. If you know that your kids "always" does xyz then find a new set of options to change the situation and make xyz a non-issue. The more of that you do, the less you'll find you "need" rules and limits. Try it! You can start being proactive without changing any other part of your parenting. And even if you come to decide that you want to stick with some rules, being proactive is an extremely valuable parenting tool, one that you'll be glad to have in your "tool box".
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)