DJ250

DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good habit
to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them. I have learned to let
go of that and it's been for the better. WE are the ones (dh and I)
that want the room clean so we should be cleaning. I said we can ask
for their help but should not require it. He says that's doing their
work for them and that they made the mess, they should clean it up.

Thoughts?

~Melissa :-)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Russell

one thing we did in the past was to give away the matching dishes and let everyone pick their own plate, bowl, cup (thrift shop-everyone can pick a different pattern)

that way if I had a need for a clean dish, I knew my dish was always clean because I'd wash it. There was no question about who dirtied what, and since it was "their" dish they didn't mind taking care of it so much. It lasted a few years in our house until our lifestyle changed and we weren't eating at home anymore very often.

Hmmm- we should try that again.

Lisa


http://mrshannigan.blogspot.com







----- Original Message ----
From: DJ250 <dj250@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 7:35:40 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] clean up


DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good habit
to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them. I have learned to let
go of that and it's been for the better. WE are the ones (dh and I)
that want the room clean so we should be cleaning. I said we can ask
for their help but should not require it. He says that's doing their
work for them and that they made the mess, they should clean it up.

Thoughts?

~Melissa :-)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

It sounds like your question is more about getting your dh on board
with your ideas than requiring the kids to clean up. Would that be
right? Just want to know which direction to take on this <g>.

Robin B.

On Sep 16, 2008, at 7:35 AM, DJ250 wrote:

> DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good
> habit
> to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them. I have learned to
> let
> go of that and it's been for the better. WE are the ones (dh and I)
> that want the room clean so we should be cleaning. I said we can ask
> for their help but should not require it. He says that's doing their
> work for them and that they made the mess, they should clean it up.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ~Melissa :-)
>

k

If you had guests would you necessarily expect them to clean up throughout
their visit? After they eat a meal you provide, would expect guests to
clean the dishes? (Some people would but not me!)

Your kids are your guests whom you've invited into your home and this
world. They didn't even have a chance to turn down the "invitation" but
found themselves in your home where they are! So they already don't have
much choice in the matter. And now they don't even get the chance to decide
for themselves if they can pitch in or not??!!

~Katherine




On 9/16/08, DJ250 <dj250@...> wrote:
>
> DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good habit
> to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them. I have learned to let
> go of that and it's been for the better. WE are the ones (dh and I)
> that want the room clean so we should be cleaning. I said we can ask
> for their help but should not require it. He says that's doing their
> work for them and that they made the mess, they should clean it up.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ~Melissa :-)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

On Sep 16, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> one thing we did in the past was to give away the matching dishes
> and let everyone pick their own plate, bowl, cup (thrift shop-
> everyone can pick a different pattern)
>
> that way if I had a need for a clean dish, I knew my dish was always
> clean because I'd wash it. There was no question about who dirtied
> what, and since it was "their" dish they didn't mind taking care of
> it so much.

I'm curious if they were expected or required to "take care of it."
What happened if they didn't?

It seems sneaky to me, like a "this is yours, you are responsible for
it" way to get kids to do chores.
>
>
> Hmmm- we should try that again.

Depending on your answer to the above, maybe not <g>.

My favorite writers on the subject:

http://sandradodd.com/chores

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/cleaningupafterthemselves.html

Robin B.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Russell

Good questions, Robin. In the past I'd probably have nagged them to do it, and they would have. My guess is that if I instituted it today, they'd be competing to see whose dish could be clean more often. It probably, at the time, was a sneaky way of getting them to take responsibility for their dishes, or at least to make sure that I always had something clean to eat with.

I think, if I were to do it today, probably only one of my kids (7yo) wouldn't be happy to take care of her own dish. Then I'd end up doing it for her and the other girls would see that and then stop doing their dishes. Maybe I'm projecting a fear. On a good day, she'd exchange something with one of her sisters so that it would be clean, if I were requiring it to be clean. I don't know if I'd do that today. I'd have to think about that.

I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical consequence, too. But since I am rethinking these things, I just don't know.

I joined this list so my thoughts & ideas could be challenged, so I appreciate the links you sent- I plan to check them out when I'm done working. I must say, though, I am not of the mindset that the kids are guests, I feel we're more of a community. I do most of the jobs in the house, and since I've decided to do them cheerfully, I've had a lot more volunteer help.

Thanks for helping me direct my self-questioning.


Lisa








----- Original Message ----
From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:31:38 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] clean up



On Sep 16, 2008, at 8:14 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> one thing we did in the past was to give away the matching dishes
> and let everyone pick their own plate, bowl, cup (thrift shop-
> everyone can pick a different pattern)
>
> that way if I had a need for a clean dish, I knew my dish was always
> clean because I'd wash it. There was no question about who dirtied
> what, and since it was "their" dish they didn't mind taking care of
> it so much.

I'm curious if they were expected or required to "take care of it."
What happened if they didn't?

It seems sneaky to me, like a "this is yours, you are responsible for
it" way to get kids to do chores.
>
>
> Hmmm- we should try that again.

Depending on your answer to the above, maybe not <g>.

My favorite writers on the subject:

http://sandradodd. com/chores

http://joyfullyrejo ycing.com/ influencing% 20kid%20behavior /chores/cleaning upafterthemselve s.html

Robin B.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kimberlee

I had this discussion with my dh, and couldn't seem to get the point
across so that he was onboard. I left the following (excellent)
website up on the computer screen, and asked him to please read it:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/chores/cleaningupafterthemselves.html

My dh read it. He understood; maybe yours will too.

Kimberlee :)


On 16-Sep-08, at 10:35 AM, DJ250 wrote:

> DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good
> habit
> to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them. I have learned to let
> go of that and it's been for the better. WE are the ones (dh and I)
> that want the room clean so we should be cleaning. I said we can ask
> for their help but should not require it. He says that's doing their
> work for them and that they made the mess, they should clean it up.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ~Melissa :-)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
>
> DH expects the kids to clean up after themselves, that it's a good
habit
> to acquire and it's our job to teach it to them.

I'll take it in reverse order - its not *necessary* to teach them.
Modelling helps them see the value in a clean space. Fostering
connections allows them to *want* to help the people they love.
Respecting who they are right now (in the middle of something,
tired, distracted) creates an environment of mutual respect. Kids
like to help their parents! But they're often very very busy being
kids.

A good habit? Where and when do you mean? I only ever clean my
workshop when I can't find a tool or need a biiiiiig space for a
project. Otherwise, being a very visual person (and short on time),
its actually more logical for me to leave things out.

In my away-from-home job, otoh, its more logical to clean up several
times a day - before the trash cans get too heavy to lift. And then
its more productive for one team member to clean the whole
department each time. So I'm rarely cleaning when I'm "done" and I'm
often cleaning up for half a dozen people, besides.

The trouble is the expectation. It sounds like the basis for that
expectation is what are sometimes called "old tapes". He can hear
the voices from childhood saying "time to clean up" but he's never
really pulled the idea apart and looked at it from all directions.
He's just reciting a script from the "everybody knows" file.
Everybody knows you have to teach children to clean up! Happily,
that's balderdash.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

Jodi Bezzola

~~I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical consequence, too.~~
 
When unschoolers talk about 'natural consequences', they're talking about things that happen naturally!  What you're referring to is punishment - as in, being able to cook being removed because of not cleaning up.  That isn't a natural consequence, it's punishment.  I hear 'natural/logical consequence' bandied about quite a bit lately - as in, you leave your bike out it might get stolen or rusted...but if I saw my daughter's bike out in the front yard I would bring it in.  Because it's only a natural consequence if I didn't see the bike out in the yard.  Not bringing it in after I saw it laying there makes it anything but natural, it makes it a choice on my part to punish her for leaving her bike out.  Make sense?  Not letting your daughter cook is not helping your relationship with her.  You're keeping her from doing something she enjoys!
 
Jodi






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beth Fleming

 
This brought back to me a situatioin with my bike when I was about 11 or 12.  I had a habit of leaving it outside and my parents were afraid of it being stolen (which wasn't probable in the neighborhood I grew up in).  One night, they took it in and hid it from me.  The next morning when I went to ride the bike, it was gone and they said it must have been stolen.  The whole time, it was hidden in the cellar.  Maybe two weeks passed and they told me that it was in the cellar and did I learn my lesson?  ...Fast forward to adulthood....the whole experience only brings back memories of being afraid of/not being loved by my parents...no lesson about bike security was learned!  I'm sure they weren't trying to be harsh but were trying to help me take responsibility for my things...It seems as parents if we have the best of intentions, but don't think through our first reactions well and try to see them  through the lenses of peaceful parenting, we
make our kids feel unloved.  Not what I want, for sure for my little ones. 
Just some thoughts...
Peace,
Beth 



----- Original Message ----
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:59:06 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] clean up


~~I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical consequence, too.~~
 
When unschoolers talk about 'natural consequences' , they're talking about things that happen naturally!  What you're referring to is punishment - as in, being able to cook being removed because of not cleaning up.  That isn't a natural consequence, it's punishment.  I hear 'natural/logical consequence' bandied about quite a bit lately - as in, you leave your bike out it might get stolen or rusted...but if I saw my daughter's bike out in the front yard I would bring it in.  Because it's only a natural consequence if I didn't see the bike out in the yard.  Not bringing it in after I saw it laying there makes it anything but natural, it makes it a choice on my part to punish her for leaving her bike out.  Make sense?  Not letting your daughter cook is not helping your relationship with her.  You're keeping her from doing something she enjoys!
 
Jodi

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> I think, if I were to do it today, probably only one of my kids
> (7yo) wouldn't be happy to take care of her own dish. Then I'd end
> up doing it for her and the other girls would see that and then stop
> doing their dishes.
>

That's a pretty good clue that these are enforced chores (not
contributions they make happily to the household), if all the kids
would stop.

> Maybe I'm projecting a fear.

A fear of them saying no? Or fear that you will then be responsible
for washing all the dishes?

> On a good day, she'd exchange something with one of her sisters so
> that it would be clean, if I were requiring it to be clean.

And on a bad day? <g>

"Requiring" would certainly be a sticking point in unschooling.

> I don't know if I'd do that today. I'd have to think about that.

As Jodi said, it would be good to think about that in the context of
your relationship with her and with the rest of your girls.
>
>
> I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical
> consequence for not washing your own dish.

Nope. An enforced consequence, imposed by you.

> I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she
> never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical
> consequence, too.

Nope, again. Man, if my husband imposed that consequence on me (since
he's the one who cleans up quite often after I've used every pot in
the place) I'd be pretty pissed. It's not remotely logical - it's
punishment.

> But since I am rethinking these things, I just don't know.

Well, lots to read at the sites I posted. Lots to rethink, I think :-)
>
> I joined this list so my thoughts & ideas could be challenged, so I
> appreciate the links you sent- I plan to check them out when I'm
> done working.

That's refreshing! Many people post here for the first time, having
no intention of their thoughts and ideas being challenged! It's a good
thing to have an open mind, here.

> I must say, though, I am not of the mindset that the kids are
> guests, I feel we're more of a community.

I think there's some truth to the idea of kids being guests (honored
guests, in fact). People who are part of a community usually *choose*
to be part of it. Kids don't have that luxury to say "I'm done with
this. I think I'll move."

Guests, on the other hand, appreciate being respected for who they
are, appreciate advice about the probable best thing to do in a
situation, like to help if given the opportunity, but certainly don't
expect to be forced into labor, told what to do, or given logical
consequences at their host's command.

I do most of the jobs in the house, and since I've decided to do them
cheerfully, I've had a lot more volunteer help.
>
Jobs cheerfully done often result in more volunteer help. That's good!

> Thanks for helping me direct my self-questioning.
>
No problem. Lots of people will help you do that here.

Robin B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Russell

A fear of them saying no? Or fear that you will then be responsible
for washing all the dishes?

no- a fear that they'd be helping voluntarily & then change their mind. Dishes don't scare me anymore! Sometimes I'd rather do all the dishes myself, it's faster, less messy and cleaner. They really liked having their own special dishes, that's why I was thinking of doing it again, but the original reason we tried it was definitely based upon tricking them into washing them.

On a bad day- I don't know- are days really bad? I said "good day" meaning just that sometimes she's resourceful like that.

I hoped that the word "if" would be emphasized in the "if" i were enforcing things like that, which I haven't been, not only am I a terrible enforcer, but it's just easier to do it myself, kwim? Nothing is worth the struggle and fighting anymore, after working 12-18 hour days 7 days a week, missing them like crazy. I already decided to just do it all myself, but I wasn't cheerful about it, and my older kids were being super helpful anyways. They have company a lot, so they're always straightening things up.

I have noticed this past week that they do ALL help a lot more than I thought they did, and the cheerfulness I've had has had more of an impact on the 7 and 5 yr olds than the older kids. The older ones (14 and 11) are just plain helpful (I was so cool when they were little, it was all so instinctive) The 7 & 5 yr old haven't known me much in their lives, time really has been the best thing for them.

I'm reading the links you sent with my husband and older girls tonight. I don't want to debate the guest-thing just yet, I wanna work through the links you sent. It's really just easier to do it ourselves, and I'm sure that's where these links will bring me back to, but it's true, the mindset and the intention behind the words is like- INVISIBLE to me, so pointing it out really helps me examine things. 6 years away from my kids has really done a number on my mommy-brain, and having my husband home with us all now, too has really caused us to examine our childhoods, too. We were both raised in authorotative homes, his worse than mine. His mother thinks it's amazing our kids have survived! I think it's amazing that he survived.

Anyway- thanks for tonight's family read-aloud material, we just finished Emma and now, this. Lol, goodnight
Lisa



http://www.lisarussell.org because .com and .net were taken


----- Original Message ----
From: Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 9:27:08 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] clean up

>
> I think, if I were to do it today, probably only one of my kids
> (7yo) wouldn't be happy to take care of her own dish. Then I'd end
> up doing it for her and the other girls would see that and then stop
> doing their dishes.
>

That's a pretty good clue that these are enforced chores (not
contributions they make happily to the household), if all the kids
would stop.

> Maybe I'm projecting a fear.

A fear of them saying no? Or fear that you will then be responsible
for washing all the dishes?


> On a good day, she'd exchange something with one of her sisters so
> that it would be clean, if I were requiring it to be clean.

And on a bad day? <g>

"Requiring" would certainly be a sticking point in unschooling.

> I don't know if I'd do that today. I'd have to think about that.

As Jodi said, it would be good to think about that in the context of
your relationship with her and with the rest of your girls.
>
>
> I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical
> consequence for not washing your own dish.

Nope. An enforced consequence, imposed by you.

> I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she
> never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical
> consequence, too.

Nope, again. Man, if my husband imposed that consequence on me (since
he's the one who cleans up quite often after I've used every pot in
the place) I'd be pretty pissed. It's not remotely logical - it's
punishment.

> But since I am rethinking these things, I just don't know.

Well, lots to read at the sites I posted. Lots to rethink, I think :-)
>
> I joined this list so my thoughts & ideas could be challenged, so I
> appreciate the links you sent- I plan to check them out when I'm
> done working.

That's refreshing! Many people post here for the first time, having
no intention of their thoughts and ideas being challenged! It's a good
thing to have an open mind, here.

> I must say, though, I am not of the mindset that the kids are
> guests, I feel we're more of a community.

I think there's some truth to the idea of kids being guests (honored
guests, in fact). People who are part of a community usually *choose*
to be part of it. Kids don't have that luxury to say "I'm done with
this. I think I'll move."

Guests, on the other hand, appreciate being respected for who they
are, appreciate advice about the probable best thing to do in a
situation, like to help if given the opportunity, but certainly don't
expect to be forced into labor, told what to do, or given logical
consequences at their host's command.

I do most of the jobs in the house, and since I've decided to do them
cheerfully, I've had a lot more volunteer help.
>
Jobs cheerfully done often result in more volunteer help. That's good!

> Thanks for helping me direct my self-questioning.
>
No problem. Lots of people will help you do that here.

Robin B.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa Russell

Thanks for that perspective- I'm enjoying the "Joyfully Rejoicing" site, I love how right on the front page she says "Don't drop all your parenting rules at once. Just say "Yes!" more." It really shows an appreciation for the process of change involved. And I like how Sandra Dodd's page features answers from a few different people. Thanks so much to whoever shared those.

I have to say, though- the whole dish thing really seems like a non issue in our house. I made a silent vote to ask the girls what they thought and they all felt the same, (options were "I hate doing dishes, I never want to wash another in my life" and "I don't mind it, it's no big deal to wash a few dishes every now and then" and "I love dishes and wish there were more to wash" a girl can dream, right?) so other than enjoying the perspectives offered on those sites, I'm not really concerned. I think this all just started when I offered up the different-dish idea for someone else. I do need new dishes, we break a surprising amount of dishes around here.

My 11 yr old said that if she was really bothered by the no cooking thing, she would have complained about it, she was getting sick of cooking anyways. She was discouraged because she burned a few things and planned to ask to cook again when she was "over it." whatever that means.

My parents were authoritative, but I've never been particularly bothered by it. I don't remember ever being really upset by their ways, except thinking my mom was prettier when she was nice, and that my dad was fun when he was in a good mood. The thing that bothered me the most was being misunderstood. My husband was really traumatized by his authoritative parents, and he always has a harder time loosening up and believing things don't need to be managed. He doesn't even talk to his siblings, it's very sad.




http://www.lisarussell.org because .com and .net were taken







----- Original Message ----
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 6:59:06 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] clean up


~~I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical consequence, too.~~

When unschoolers talk about 'natural consequences' , they're talking about things that happen naturally! What you're referring to is punishment - as in, being able to cook being removed because of not cleaning up. That isn't a natural consequence, it's punishment. I hear 'natural/logical consequence' bandied about quite a bit lately - as in, you leave your bike out it might get stolen or rusted...but if I saw my daughter's bike out in the front yard I would bring it in. Because it's only a natural consequence if I didn't see the bike out in the yard. Not bringing it in after I saw it laying there makes it anything but natural, it makes it a choice on my part to punish her for leaving her bike out. Make sense? Not letting your daughter cook is not helping your relationship with her. You're keeping her from doing something she enjoys!

Jodi

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

<snip>
I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking messes, that seems to be a logical consequence, too. But since I am rethinking these things, I just don't know.
<snip>

Try and think about this in terms of priorities instead of consequences, just for a moment. Think about how, by suspending cooking privileges, you've said to your daughter that a clean kitchen is more important than a cooked meal. Is that the message that you are hoping to give her?

Cooking is an amazing art. I love cooking. I love the chemistry of changing the state of a series of individual parts into a delicious whole. I love doing it with Simon and Linnaea, or helping them to do it on there own. By taking out the costs of cleaning up after themselves from the cooking experience, I've given them the freedom to explore what it is they want to make. If you were Gordon Ramsey or Mollie Katzen working in your restaurant kitchen, you wouldn't be worrying about the mess you were making, only the gastronomic creations you were designing and serving to your customers. You have staff to do all the rest. I see myself as Simon's and Linnaea's and, sometimes, David's staff. I'm not a tidy cook. I bake a lot and where I stand there usually is a dusting of flour. I get it on my clothes and all over the counter. I don't worry about it, I don't actually see it until I am done. If I felt that the clean up was the cost of the creation it might
make me resentful of the whole experience. It took me a long time to get to a point where I enjoy cleaning up. A lot of positive thought about doing dishes and seeing it is a reflective moment in a day filled with very few such moments. Given the lifetime it has taken me to un-learn the realm of chore where such jobs were slated in my childhoood why would I want to burden Simon and Linnaea with the same perspective?

When I watch Simon's joy while planning and making a pie, when I watch Linnaea's pleasure and satisfaction while designing a mashed potato sculpture with brocolli spears for decoration, the mess becomes a much more minor thing to consider.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> I must say, though, I am not of the mindset that the kids are
> guests, I feel we're more of a community.

But the important question is "How do the kids see it?"

I think, as a general idea, that kids can come to see our viewpoint
if that's how we're living our lives. But we can communicate with
them a lot more effectively if we speak from their point of view.

A community is something you join and can leave and from kids' points
of view that doesn't quite match their lives. A guest is closer to
how they were born into the world. They didn't choose to come. They
were invited. They didn't choose to have the house they do, or have
the size yard they do, or have money spent in the particular way
their parents do. They didn't choose to have the house kept to the
particular standards the parents want, nor do they get to decide the
standards should change to what they want. They can't paint the
living room walls black. They *know* that it isn't their house. From
the beginning of their life their existence is closer to a guest at a
hotel than to a full member of the family.

If we communicate to them from their understanding -- that we've
invited them as treasured guests into our home -- they'll get the
transition to a different viewpoint -- for your family, that it's a
community -- much easier than if we try to communicate to them from
our understanding of the world.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Osborne & Luke Barnes

Katherine
thanks for that ie
" If you had guests would you necessarily expect them to clean up throughout
their visit? After they eat a meal you provide, would expect guests to
clean the dishes? (Some people would but not me!)

Your kids are your guests whom you've invited into your home and this
world. They didn't even have a chance to turn down the "invitation" but
found themselves in your home where they are! So they already don't have
much choice in the matter. And now they don't even get the chance to decide
for themselves if they can pitch in or not??!!"

It really made sense to me a trying to be unschooling mum and deal with
my issues about mess!

Ren Allen

~~~~I think that not having a clean dish to eat from is a logical
consequence for not washing your own dish. I have a daughter who isn't
allowed to cook anymore because she never cleans up the cooking
messes, that seems to be a logical
consequence, too.~~~~

Sounds like a household set up to breed the OPPOSITE of cooperation.
Is it the "logical consequence" for your spouse/partner to have no
dish if he/she does not clean their own? I like to breed an atmosphere
of cooperation and partnership personally.

What that looks like around here is a LOT of cleaning up after each
other and not worrying about who did what or made which mess. We just
help out because we're family.

Sometimes Sierra is cooking something and there are no clean dishes,
so I wash one for her. Sometimes while one of us is cooking, another
person acts as "assistant" handing over items or cleaning up after the
person as they go. I did this for her last night when she wanted to
bake cookies. Fostering an atmosphere of trust and friendship is WAY
more important in an unschooling household than "logical consequences".

Don't you ever want an "assist" when you're doing a project? Why
shouldn't a child, who is learning about their world and doesn't have
a ton of experience, not get HELP instead of the whole "logical" bullcrap?

If you want children to be willing to explore and try new things,
gather new skills, then be their "assist" and grease the cogs that
churn up all that creativity!!

"Logical consequences" aren't logical at all. They're mean. Natural
consequences are things that happen whether you are there or
not...like gravity making something fall.

Ren

Ren Allen

~~Nope, again. Man, if my husband imposed that consequence on me (since
he's the one who cleans up quite often after I've used every pot in
the place) I'd be pretty pissed. ~~


I do most of the cooking around here and dh does a LOT of the clean
up. Mostly because we never clean it to his "standard" (how he loves
it) so he just figures it's best if he cleans! Great. I can't imagine
if he said "you all don't clean up after yourselves so now there won't
be any clean dishes for you" or some such meanness. ick.

'Course if there aren't any clean dishes, we don't blame him we just
clean some. I think the bottom line is we've got each other's back.
Nobody is trying to preach some "logical consequence" or watch someone
else suffer for their choices.

Ren

k

Well I got the idea from Pam Sorooshian and I know I have seen it before.
It only recently took for me. The guest thought is easier for me to see
than a lot of other ways I could reframe my unschooling experience.

~Katherine




On 9/17/08, Julie Osborne & Luke Barnes <barnesosborne@...>
wrote:
>
> Katherine
> thanks for that ie
> " If you had guests would you necessarily expect them to clean up
> throughout
> their visit? After they eat a meal you provide, would expect guests to
> clean the dishes? (Some people would but not me!)
>
> Your kids are your guests whom you've invited into your home and this
> world. They didn't even have a chance to turn down the "invitation" but
> found themselves in your home where they are! So they already don't have
> much choice in the matter. And now they don't even get the chance to decide
> for themselves if they can pitch in or not??!!"
>
> It really made sense to me a trying to be unschooling mum and deal with
> my issues about mess!
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Bentley

>
> I have noticed this past week that they do ALL help a lot more than
> I thought they did, and the cheerfulness I've had has had more of an
> impact on the 7 and 5 yr olds than the older kids. The older ones
> (14 and 11) are just plain helpful (I was so cool when they were
> little, it was all so instinctive) The 7 & 5 yr old haven't known
> me much in their lives, time really has been the best thing for them.
>
> I'm reading the links you sent with my husband and older girls
> tonight. I don't want to debate the guest-thing just yet, I wanna
> work through the links you sent. It's really just easier to do it
> ourselves, and I'm sure that's where these links will bring me back
> to, but it's true, the mindset and the intention behind the words is
> like- INVISIBLE to me, so pointing it out really helps me examine
> things. 6 years away from my kids has really done a number on my
> mommy-brain, and having my husband home with us all now, too has
> really caused us to examine our childhoods, too. We were both
> raised in authorotative homes, his worse than mine. His mother
> thinks it's amazing our kids have survived! I think it's amazing
> that he survived.

Wow. There's a lot going on here.
>
> Anyway- thanks for tonight's family read-aloud material, we just
> finished Emma and now, this. Lol, goodnight
> Lisa


I just watched Emma at my dentist's yesterday <g>.

Come back with any questions you have from what you've read. The
faster you "get it" the better things will begin to be for everyone.
We're here to help!

Robin B.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:36 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> I have to say, though- the whole dish thing really seems like a non
> issue in our house.

Ah, but once an idea reaches the list it's no longer about the person
who posted. The resulting discussion is about the idea.

Some family might unschool with enforced bedtimes and they feel it's
working great for their family. But as a general idea tossed onto the
list for others to use, it needs held up and examined for where it
can bruise relationships.

Your idea didn't work because all kids would like to keep their own
set of dishes clean. That desire isn't universal. There was something
in your relationship, something about your kids' personalities,
something other than the idea that made it work. That something else,
if it's respectfu, might be useful for unschooling, but if others
tried the dish idea, it could turn into a battle because it isn't
good for building relationships.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Professional Parenting

I think my kids are not my guests. They are part of the family who lives in the family home. They share everything, including the work. They also feel quite competant about their skills. I don't force them to do chores, but the expectation that they pitch in is certainly part of our "unspoken" rules.

In fact, I have quite a lot of expectations of my children, and my partner, and myself. :-)

Judy Arnall, Peaceful Parenting Expert, Speaker and Author of "Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring, responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery" www.professionalparenting.ca Tele: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@... "Peace In The World Begins In The Home"


----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Osborne & Luke Barnes
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:45 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: clean up


Katherine
thanks for that ie
" If you had guests would you necessarily expect them to clean up throughout
their visit? After they eat a meal you provide, would expect guests to
clean the dishes? (Some people would but not me!)

Your kids are your guests whom you've invited into your home and this
world. They didn't even have a chance to turn down the "invitation" but
found themselves in your home where they are! So they already don't have
much choice in the matter. And now they don't even get the chance to decide
for themselves if they can pitch in or not??!!"

It really made sense to me a trying to be unschooling mum and deal with
my issues about mess!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

'Course if there aren't any clean dishes, we don't blame him we just
clean some. I think the bottom line is we've got each other's back.
Nobody is trying to preach some "logical consequence" or watch someone
else suffer for their choices.>>>>>

oh how i wish my mother would get this seemingly simple idea :)


Nicole

64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 17, 2008, at 2:02 AM, Schuyler wrote:

> By taking out the costs of cleaning up after themselves from the
> cooking experience, I've given them the freedom to explore what it
> is they want to make.

I always had this same attitude with my kids. We had a little kitchen
and when we'd do any kind of cooking, together, I'd just casually
clean up as we went along so that there continued to be room for the
kids to do what they wanted to do. I'd keep space on the counter, wipe
up messes, rinse out dishes and put them away while I helped them make
cookies or whatever it was they were making.

So - yesterday - Rosie (17) wanted to make cookies with me. She could
do it herself, of course, but it was more about doing something
together. So she was getting stuff out and reading the directions
while I quickly cleaned up the bit of mess in the kitchen. She pretty
much made the cookies while we talked and I handed her things. When
the first batch were in the oven, I started putting cookies on the
cookie sheet for the second batch and SHE moved around the kitchen,
washing the measuring cups and bowls and utensils we'd used, wiping
counters, and, yes, even sweeping the floor! It was a completely
normal, natural thing for someone to do. There was no emotion attached
to it - no resentment, no resistance, no shirking, no kissing up,
nothing except a very pleasant sense of mom and daughter hanging out
and enjoying each other's company. I cannot IMAGINE that happening if
I'd been making her do those same tasks, especially if we'd been
fighting over getting them done.

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

> On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:44 PM, Lisa Russell wrote:
>
>> I must say, though, I am not of the mindset that the kids are
>> guests, I feel we're more of a community.


I really LIKE the idea of treating our children as if they are honored
guests when it comes to offering them enjoyable and interesting
experiences. I like thinking about how I treat guests who come to
visit where I live. I LOVE where I live and love to share this part of
the world with other people. I think about the person and what they're
likely to enjoy. I might take some people out to Joshua Tree National
Park and others to Venice Beach or I'll take some people to the La
Brea Tar Pits and other people to the Getty Center (art museum).
Applying this model to unschooling - I think about my children and
"take them places" that I think will suit them and enhance their
lives. (Not necessarily literally taking them places.) That, to me, is
unschooling.

I'm not as crazy about the analogy of guests when it comes to this
particular topic of household maintenance, not because I don't think
treating our kids like honored guests is a good idea (I do), but
because it doesn't seem as good an analogy for helping people
understand that we DO care about our kids learning to care for their
living space and their possessions. When guests come to stay, I try to
have as nice a situation for them as I can manage - clean sheets,
clean towels, etc. Its nice to do that for my family, too. But, I
don't really care how my guests treat their own home or their own
things. I DO hope that my kids will grow up into adults who take
reasonable care with their things and at least don't live in squalor.

So the question is what behavior on my part, now, is most conducive to
living happily, now, along with encouraging my kids to choose good
housekeeping over squalor in the future?

Some people get caught up in focusing on the idea of not requiring the
kids to do chores. That's like focusing on the idea of not requiring
the kids to do schoolwork. You can't understand unschooling by looking
only at what we don't do. And, you also have to look at what we do
instead of requiring housework from our kids. I make housework fun. I
don't fake it, I changed MY attitude about it. I didn't even invite
the kids to participate until I'd worked on changing my attitude
because I didn't want them tainted by my negativity. Sometime along
the way I "got it" - I now really and truly LOVE to clean up the
house, do dishes, do laundry, etc. I mean I truly get pleasure out of
it. And, lo and behold, when I get the Swiffer out and start cleaning
all our hardwood floors, admiring how lovely the wood is and enjoying
the physical movement and the clean smell, sometimes one of the kids
will actually take over and want to do it (they're 17 and 20). And,
other times, I can say, "Hey, I'm going to dust, want to do it with
me?" and a kid will say, "Sure!" I mean - as if this sounds like FUN
to them. I stand in the kitchen and rinse dishes and admire the
pretty plates and enjoy the warm water. I don't even say anything to
the kids, but the good vibes are there and lately I've been asking,
"Can somebody unload the dishwasher if you get a chance?" and it has
been getting done when I'm not looking.

When the kids are little, it isn't hard to make cleaning up fun.
Mostly they'll just jump right in and help if a parent is cheerfully
doing it with them. It is also really easy to make games out of
cleaning up. I'd suggest doing that when it is happy and cheerful. And
make it really really easy for kids to put their own stuff away so
that they CAN do it if they so desire. And when they leave stuff out
that is "in the way" - meaning either there is so much clutter that
things are getting buried under other things and it is inconveniencing
other family members or that they've left things in walkways or
blocking doorways, then take care of it for them - maybe by putting it
away if they're done with it or by moving it to a safer place.

Once I got my own head on straight (one of my dad's favorite
expressions <G>) about housework and I was able to do it with
authentic good cheer, it became easy and natural for me to include the
kids - "Want to help me fold laundry while we watch The Office?"

What I do NOT have is what some parents think they deserve - kids who
totally take care of all their own messes and contribute their "share"
to the housework. But I've had one move out already and live in her
own little house and - taa daa - she takes good care of it. She even
has a gorgeous "art room" that most of us would be very envious of -
it is full and brimming with arts and crafts supplies which are all
very nicely organized so she can find what she wants immediately.

These days, I'm liking less clutter than we've lived with for years.
With Roya moved out we don't have the huge amounts of arts and crafts
stuff going on all the time so that whole level of clutter has mostly
disappeared. But, still, the kids and my husband are more likely to
leave stuff sitting out that piles up into a lot of clutter over a few
days or week. I've started cleaning that all up for them almost every
day - turns out I can do it very quickly. I put away things I know
they'd want put away and I put other things all into a box - one for
each person and a "not sure who this belongs to" box. The boxes just
sit out until they decide to put the stuff away, which always happens
sooner or later. I'm happy to have some clear surfaces around and it
makes it possible to dust and clean the floors more easily. And, when
things are a little more cleared up, everybody else is way more likely
to go ahead and clean up after themselves, too.

Recently I asked everyone in my family to do two things that I find
make life easier. They seem sort of small, but they make a difference.
First, don't put anything in the right-hand side of the sink (garbage
disposal side). When stuff is piled up in the garbage-disposal side of
the sink, nobody rinses any dishes and the food gets stuck on and it
becomes kind of a gross, goopey mess. The other thing is not to put
anything down on top of anything else - create a single layer of
clutter only. THAT keeps things from being covered up or buried and
saves us a lot of time because we don't have to search for missing
stuff. It has been about a month or so since I asked this and
everybody has kept it up and I've really appreciated it.

The way this came about was that someone on this list or another one
posted about asking everyone in the family to tell what their own one
or two highest priorities were regarding household maintenance. Nobody
else in my family seems to have any, but it got ME thinking about what
I'd say I wanted most from the rest of my family and, sort of oddly,
it was those two things. So I asked. They didn't seem to think it was
much to ask.

-pam

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 17, 2008, at 12:36 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:

> "I love dishes and wish there were more to wash" a girl can dream,
> right?


I just bought 18 new plates - they were on clearance at Bed, Bath, and
Beyond and they're SO pretty. I love them. I had to go to three
different Bed, Bath, and Beyonds to get this many. I'm using them all
the time - I used one tonight just to put a cookie on - because I
really just like them so much and I'm LOVING washing them. They're
square and they're a size that's in between a normal large dinner
plate and a desert plate. They have really bright colorful flowers on
them and green rims. They go beautifully with the coffee cups I bought
from Starbucks a few months ago - green and pinkish/orange striped. I
also love those.

Here - you can see a picture of my new dishes that I LOVE to wash! <G>

<http://gallery.me.com/pamsoroosh> and click on "dishes."

-pam

Ren Allen

~~In fact, I have quite a lot of expectations of my children, and my
partner, and
myself. :-)~~

I think a lot of expectations lead to a lack of peace.

Ren

Faith Void

I have ALWAYS hated washing dishes. I was forced to through the idea that we
all work together and do our share. Everyone did dishes. it didn't matter
that I loved vacuuming, mopping and dusting, I had to wash dishes because I
had to learn how to take care of myself. But that's not what compelled me to
join in. Pam's lovely dishes did. I received some gorgeous square dishes
that I love, they are Japanese-ish in style. They are sitting in my cabinets
because I am afraid to use them. Seriously. I have used them twice for
special occasions. I wanted to wash them and get them away, i cared. I think
I am going to get them out and use them and love washing them.
Faith

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:08 AM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:

>
> On Sep 17, 2008, at 12:36 AM, Lisa Russell wrote:
>
> > "I love dishes and wish there were more to wash" a girl can dream,
> > right?
> i HAVE ALWAYS hated
> I just bought 18 new plates - they were on clearance at Bed, Bath, and
> Beyond and they're SO pretty. I love them. I had to go to three
> different Bed, Bath, and Beyonds to get this many. I'm using them all
> the time - I used one tonight just to put a cookie on - because I
> really just like them so much and I'm LOVING washing them. They're
> square and they're a size that's in between a normal large dinner
> plate and a desert plate. They have really bright colorful flowers on
> them and green rims. They go beautifully with the coffee cups I bought
> from Starbucks a few months ago - green and pinkish/orange striped. I
> also love those.
>
> Here - you can see a picture of my new dishes that I LOVE to wash! <G>
>
> <http://gallery.me.com/pamsoroosh> and click on "dishes."
>
> -pam
>
>



--
www.bearthmama.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~
> Your kids are your guests whom you've invited into your home and
this world. They didn't even have a chance to turn down the
"invitation" but found themselves in your home where they are! So they
already don't have much choice in the matter.~~

I think it's a great way for parents to re-frame how they view their
children, at the same time I don't think treating them like guests all
the time is exactly helpful either. I might not ask my guests to
participate in the things we help each other with as a family. My
children know their contributions here are helpful and important.

When they help in the garden they see the results of that in a big
way. Being connected to useful work IS important. Forcing and
encouraging are very different things though. I wouldn't ask a guest
to clean up the kitchen while I'm at work. I DO ask my children.
Asking with full knowledge that if they want help or have other things
going on they'll tell me without fear of judgement.

If there is a mess that nobody feels like dealing with, that's that.
No big deal. Mess is just there until we deal with it.:) There is no
mandate.

Interestingly, I find that like Pam, when MY attitude is one of
gratefulness and joy, my kids willingly join in. I'll find Sierra next
to me pitching in all too often. The boys not as frequently but
they're very open to suggestions.

Ren

swissarmy_wife

I think expectations lead to a lot of disappointment. They set people
up for failure.


> I think a lot of expectations lead to a lack of peace.