[email protected]

In a message dated 13/08/02 01:13:00 GMT Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> No matter what my 3 year old wants to eat (cookies, cheese,
> whatever........), he has to have one for each hand. We say he's
> "two-fisted". :-)
>
> Joy

lol my dd also has to have 2 of anything, but 1 is to give to her darling bro!

What age do you all start your children choosing for themselves, or how do
you ease them into it? Or have you *always* done it?

Sandra, I'll email you again when I have more time. (like when I shouldn't be
sleeping! lol) I've been waiting for an email from you telling me which
option you'd prefer, but I guess you're waiting for the same from me?!

bye for now


Lynda
mum to 3

<A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UKRadicalMums/?yguid=92314408">Yahoo! Groups : UKRadicalMums</A>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UKRadicalMums


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I am watching a 7 year old boy this week, his school is on vacation and day
care is closed. It is funny, I was talking with my husband just the other
day about food issues and the boys etc.

I told this boy I was getting groceries tonight and asked if he wanted
anything. He just looked at me and said "what??" I said that I was getting
food for the house and he would be here for two more days and did he need
anything. He didn't say anything I don't think he even knew what I was
asking. So I had to get specific. "I see you like the lunchable that your
mother sent would you like a couple more to eat for the next two days...or
maybe some more gatoraide..." He just stared and said OK with this confused
look on his face. I had to laugh. I told Jackson that I don't think he gets
much say in groceries at his house. LOL

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: genant2@...
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Food
>Date: Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 1:46 PM
>

> I am watching a 7 year old boy this week, his school is on vacation and day
> care is closed. It is funny, I was talking with my husband just the other
> day about food issues and the boys etc.
>
> I told this boy I was getting groceries tonight and asked if he wanted
> anything. He just looked at me and said "what??" I said that I was getting
> food for the house and he would be here for two more days and did he need
> anything. He didn't say anything I don't think he even knew what I was
> asking. So I had to get specific. "I see you like the lunchable that your
> mother sent would you like a couple more to eat for the next two days...or
> maybe some more gatoraide..." He just stared and said OK with this confused
> look on his face. I had to laugh. I told Jackson that I don't think he gets
> much say in groceries at his house. LOL
>



Sometimes I'm sure I'm another species than the parents of your visiting 7
year old <g> and I'm so glad to be here on this list with my fellow mutants.

My 5 year old calls me on the cell phone while I'm in the grocery store if
she remembers something she wants. "Don't forget bagels!" was the last
desperate request.

Pam

Alan & Brenda Leonard

4/23/03 22:56:

> Sometimes I'm sure I'm another species than the parents of your visiting 7
> year old <g> and I'm so glad to be here on this list with my fellow mutants.

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes.

brenda, mutant and lonely in Germany tonight

coyote's corner

Eating Lunchables is a real tip off that health is not a big issue in his life!
Janis
----- Original Message -----
From: genant2@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Food


I am watching a 7 year old boy this week, his school is on vacation and day
care is closed. It is funny, I was talking with my husband just the other
day about food issues and the boys etc.

I told this boy I was getting groceries tonight and asked if he wanted
anything. He just looked at me and said "what??" I said that I was getting
food for the house and he would be here for two more days and did he need
anything. He didn't say anything I don't think he even knew what I was
asking. So I had to get specific. "I see you like the lunchable that your
mother sent would you like a couple more to eat for the next two days...or
maybe some more gatoraide..." He just stared and said OK with this confused
look on his face. I had to laugh. I told Jackson that I don't think he gets
much say in groceries at his house. LOL

Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Retta Fontana

This summer I started giving the kids their own grocery money. It was scarey and my husband wasn't into it. My 10yo was a little hesitant. I told her she didn't have to do it, but it was just an experiment. They love it now and so do I.

No more complaints about dinner, I don't have to ask them to carry in their groceries. They really think about what they need for the week. Naturally they do go overboard on some things and we talk about it, but they dont' resent me anymore for not buying "good" (bad) stuff.

They know we are not made of money, so they are on the honor system of spending the money only on food, and have enough for lunch out once a week. If there's any left over we subtract it from the next week's amount. If they really need more money for food all they have to do is say so.

They are 10 and 15yo, so my husband and I have had a number of quiet meals alone with no one bitching about when dinner will be ready or what's for dinner (husband isn't stupid!) I make family favorite meals about twice a week that they are welcome to share or not. Also, I supply the basics and they use the barter system, going in on stuff together. There's a beautiful thing!

Grocery shopping is marvelous use of advanced math - 'Mom, how much is one tomato if they're x amount per pound?'

People often comment to us how "smart" our children are. I think they are independent, competent, resourceful and conscious. All children have natural genius and when it's not snuffed out by institutions, it's surely a beautiful thing!

Holt is so right when he says that what children really want is access to the adult world. I wish I could think of a paying job ouside the home that would allow my kids to be involved when they want to. For the life of me, I can't. Our culture doesn't support it.

Retta


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Retta wrote: This summer I started giving the kids their own grocery money.

Raine replies: I'd like to hear more about how you've done this.
Thank you!
**"Tell me... I forget...show me...I remember... involve me... I understand!"
Ben Franklin**


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Wendy

--- In [email protected], Retta Fontana
<rettafontana@y...> wrote:
> This summer I started giving the kids their own grocery money.

First time poster here...but I would also love to hear more about
this. How much do they get (if you don't mind my asking)? Did you
advise them ahead of time how to spend it or just let them learn the
hard way. Do you have any rules about what they can't buy?

New here,
Wendy, with ds Forrest(8), ds Cole(5), and ds Hudson(5 mo. today)

Retta Fontana

Moving into doing their own grocery shopping was pretty simple for the kids. One day I told them I was tired of their complaining and my feeling like a servant and I told them we were going to try an experiment.

Come payday I was going to give them $50 and take them where ever they wanted to shop. First off they had the option of kicking in $8 (random #) for basics: soap, shampoo, toothpaste, peanut butter, milk, juice and several other items, which of course they saw pretty quickly as a good deal (and reality check.) No rules to begin with, but we may need to make adjustments according to how it goes.

They both did well: teenage son (15) spent every penny on fruit, raw vegies, frozen entrees and sushi, daughter, (10) the consummate fruit eater was conservative & spent half (kind of a Taurus tight-wad.)

The second week they went nuts with Pop-tarts for breakfasts and popsicles for lunch. The third week my son decided he didn't neet any new stuff and he blew the grocery money. I explained that we couldn't afford to give him that much money to blow. This was an honor system, the money was to be spent only on groceries and there should be enough to take yourself out to lunch once a week. Any left over would be part of the next week's $40. He apologized, but I told him it was not anything to apologize for, this is an experiment and learning experience all around. They have both been honest about how much is leftover.

I believe that life is like learning to walk, falling down is part of the process and there's complete trust in the process. At the same time, I don't think Pop-tarts are food even though they are sold in grocery stores.

I think I've learned more than the kids did. We spend a lot of time talking about how the world works, how the government works and why laws are the way they are. At one point I realized that government handouts do not come without lots of strings attached and this would be the perfect time to drive that home. I decided to tell the kids that grocery money is to be spent on groceries, not junk. They are perfectly free to spend their own money on cookies, popsicles or whatever. (Similar to WIC coupons not being accepted for alcohol, cigarrettes, etc.) They don't seem to want to spend their money on junk, for some reason!

I'm sure this rule seems inconsistent with the freedom to choose; it wasn't any easy decision.

We had a similar lesson on my son's birthday. He wanted a $60 item for his birthday. I gave him the money and told him he could do what ever he wanted with it. He goes, "No way am I spending my money on that!!" I told him that is precisely why the country is in the state it's in - it's very easy to spend someone else's money on things of little or dubious value. One is much more careful with one's own money.

My daughter was consistently spending around $25 for groceries, so we dropped hers to $25, if she needs more for food she just has to say so, but she hasn't yet.

I have talked to them about my fears of sugary cereal, popsicles, pop-tarts etc. Neither of them have ever had a cavity and I've had many. (I was a junior sugar addict.) They are brushing their teeth more often (some days), but the pendullum has to swing all the way to both sides. If they need a few cavities to learn about sugar, that's what they'll do, either now or later in life. Maybe they have stronger teeth than me and won't get any at all, I don't know.

Both kids are really happy with their independence.

Like I said, I make family favorites about twice a week and they are welcome to join in, mostly they do and we all really enjoy that. The rest of the time my husband and I are on our own; "candlelit dinners." I never saw that coming!! We eat exotice things without anyone going, "eeeeeuuuuwwwwwaaaahhhhh!"

I was a little scared at the beginning of the grocery deal, but I try to do something scary everyday.

I'd like to know if anyone else is doing the grocery independence thing and how it's going.

Retta


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nellebelle

teenage son (15) spent every penny on fruit, raw vegies, frozen entrees and sushi, daughter, (10) the consummate fruit eater was conservative & spent half (kind of a Taurus tight-wad.>>>>>>

So, are family members allowed to eat each others food? If I buy a bag of peaches, do you have to ask if you can have one? Are those "my" peaches? Would I be allowed to eat the foods that you chose?

>>>>He goes, "No way am I spending my money on that!!" I told him that is precisely why the country is in the state it's in - it's very easy to spend someone else's money on things of little or dubious value. One is much more careful with one's own money>>>>>

I struggle with when to buy for them and when to say they need to use their money. Especially since they will often say no to buying things with their own, but would let me buy it for them. We have some debts that need to be paid, so sometimes I feel that I shouldn't be spending any money for anything that isn't a real necessity. But it is not the kids' fault we have that debt, and it is hard to define necessity. OTH, I would like to help then learn to avoid getting in debt. Obviously a lesson DH and I didn't learn well!

Mary Ellen

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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/16/03 12:48:16 PM, rettafontana@... writes:

<< I'd like to know if anyone else is doing the grocery independence thing
and how it's going. >>

Having been in a few short term and some longer term situations in which
roommates didn't share food, it seems too anti-family to me. "That's MY peanut
butter, and you touched it."

They'll have grocery independence soon enough, and it won't be arbitrary!

My kids get allowance, and they sometimes spend it on food, mostly eating out
kind of stuff. But if they want food and we can afford it we buy their
requests. Nobody has requested pop tarts for years, except other people camping
with us.

We don't designate anything junk.

At the moment the food we have for special entertainment value/luxury is
cashews and pistachios. There is ice cream but it's not going very fast. When
it becomes constantly available, it can stay a long time.

Sandra

nellebelle

Other than food, how do you determine when they should use their own money?

Mary Ellen
----- Original Message ----- My kids get allowance, and they sometimes spend it on food, mostly eating out
kind of stuff. But if they want food and we can afford it we buy their
requests.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/16/03 5:52:09 PM, nellebelle@... writes:

<< Other than food, how do you determine when they should use their own
money? >>

No one particular way.

That's money they can spend however they want to.

I can spend my money however I want to too (after bills and groceries) and
if I want to buy them something, I offer. My kids turn down offers more often
than not, I think because they're not needy or desperate.

Today Holly wanted to go to a thrift store to look at belts. She didn't find
a bet, but found a skirt and I bought it for her. There was a really nice
small woman's batik-on-rumpled-silk dress, $4, fit her beautifully to ankles,
and she said she might not wear it enough. "Enough" for $4? It will fit her
for at least four years, with different lengths. The neckline is fancy and
gorgeous. It would be useable for a graduation, a wedding or a funeral. I
asked her if she would mind me getting it anyway in case she needs to dress up
for something, and she said okay. So I pressed a dressy $4 dress on Holly. <g>

Yesterday Marty went with me to Walmart because he didn't like his shoelaces.
We were just hanging out, getting half a dozen odd things, failing to find a
dog collar we wanted, putzing.

Marty ended up with 69 cent shoelaces, a DVD of Spawn, and didn't want
anything else.

Each item is a question of whether it's going to be enough fun or use to make
the cost worth it. If I don't personally think something is good, I don't
personally like to spend my money on it (rather larger-budget-family-money, not
"mine"). With their own money, they can do whatever.

They get 75 cents times year of age per week. Holly gets $8.25. Kirby gets
$12.50 now that he turned 17 (and he has a job, so only claims his allowance
occasionally when he wants to buy something bigger--it accumulates in the bank
of dad).

Last night after the Weird Al concert, the 11-18 year old contingent (eight
kids) wanted to go to Denny's. I didn't. Kirby had two weeks' pay. Holly had
$5. I handed Marty my one twenty dollar bill and said "Change would be nice;
use what you need to."

He brought back the $20. Holly still had her $5. Older, employed friends
bought them food. Very nice.

Sandra

Maria

As we're still transforming ourselves into unschoolers, and since we've tackled the TV "issue", now I have questions about food.

I was reading some articles on Joyfully Rejoycing and I have really been trying to allow Seth, who's 3.5, to choose when, what and where to eat. I first tried the experiment that was shown on the video that's linked on that website. Seth ate all the "unhealthy" foods, and didn't even touch the healthier options that I know he likes (I made a muffin tin snack tray, basically). This exercise was very illuminating and I'm glad I tried it.

I totally get that if both his father and I have unlimited access to food and can eat whenever we want, and whatever we want, than he should also be able to, and so we've given up making him sit at the table, or having to try something we've made for ourselves. If he chooses to sit at the table with us, we make him something he wants (usually it's a PB&J sandwich).

So...the question I have has to do with sweets. We don't have many in our house because I'm a recovering sugar addict (to sucrose, high fructose corn syrup). In the same way an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. If it is in the house, I will consume it. If I know it's in the cupboard, it's all I can think about, and usually, I'll eat it all in on sitting and then go out for more (downward spiral). If it belongs to someone else, I will try not to eat it, but it's very difficult (it's amazing what justifications one can come up with). The result is that I become very agitated, anxious, angry, controlling, out of control when I have it (depends on what I'm eating, some things are worse than others). I also have done some reading on sugar (primarily sucrose) that has led me to understand that it's not really a food but acts more like a drug, and I want to protect him from that (much in the same I protect him from illicit drugs, multiple/early vaccines, etc). But I also know that some people can handle sweets better (just like all people don't become alcoholics). I would like Seth to be able to enjoy the sweet treats he wants/likes and I don't want to be a Nazi about it because I don't want him to develop eating issues. I also want him to eat or not eat things based on what he knows about them, but I don't know that he's old enough to understand the hows and whys (of Red #40, for instance). So, is it unreasonable for me to not get the things he likes because I can't handle myself? Am I not seeing another solution here? Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

Maria

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was reading some articles on Joyfully Rejoycing and I have really
been trying to allow Seth, who's 3.5, to choose when, what and where
to eat. -=-

Instead of that, it might have been better to just stop trying to
"make him" finish his food. Not make him taste things. Give him
choices between two things. Let him have seconds. Let him eat cake.

-=-I totally get that if both his father and I have unlimited access
to food and can eat whenever we want, and whatever we want, than he
should also be able to-=-

But you could drive to Burger King or go to a fancy restaurant and
whip out a charge card, and he can't. If you start feeling like you
haven't had a big old salad bar for a while, you can make that
decision. For a three year old, you need to be the one who thinks of
the variety and provides several choices.

This is one good way:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters

It's not the same as saying to a three year old "What in all of the
earth do you want to eat?"

-=-...or having to try something we've made for ourselves. If he
chooses to sit at the table with us, we make him something he wants
(usually it's a PB&J sandwich).=-

If you literally ask him "What do you want?" and he says peanut
butter, it might be because his knowledge and imagination are three
years old. Instead of things you've "made for yourselves," what about
having food he likes, as a family, as a group sometimes?

-=-I'm a recovering sugar addict (to sucrose, high fructose corn
syrup). In the same way an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. If it is
in the house, I will consume it. -=-

Why don't you get over that? It's not an addiction the way an
alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. It's more likely something you're
carrying from childhood about having been good, or done some work, and
rewarding yourself with sugar. It's more likely a habit. Try sugar
free gum when you want to put something sweet in your mouth. Cinnamon-
soaked toothpicks. Don't pass your food problems on to your child.
Get over them. Learn to deal with them in ways other than depriving
your whole family of a food you prefer to call "addiction."

-=- The result is that I become very agitated, anxious, angry,
controlling, out of control when I have it (depends on what I'm
eating, some things are worse than others).-=-

Is some of that guilt and frustration? Is all of your agitation
related to wishing you hadn't eaten something and blaming "an
addiction"?

-=-I also have done some reading on sugar (primarily sucrose) that has
led me to understand that it's not really a food but acts more like a
drug, and I want to protect him from that-=-

Maybe you should do more reading, or less reading. <g> It's easy to
find alarmist articles about how the sky is falling because of caffein
or sugar or fats or bread is the perfect food or bread is practically
poison or drink more water or drink different water or take vitamin C
or don't waste your time on vitamins to eat fruit to I can't believe
you're eating the skins of those plums, don't you know that's
poison? (I hope you read that all in one breath; if not, try again,
aloud.)

Now breathe two or three DEEP breaths and think of whether that
breathless fear is the mountain you want your child to live under. Do
you want him to live in fear of Red #40 OH MY GOD it might crawl out
from under the bed and get him while he sleeps.

He will be MUCH, much better off with a mother who's smiling, who's
learning to handle her own fears rather than putting them out to him
and the world around.

If you hate food colors, don't have any, but don't turn it into a
crusade against the devil and all evil corporations. If you want a
happy peaceful home, you need to be happy and at peace.

-= So, is it unreasonable for me to not get the things he likes
because I can't handle myself? -=-

Yes. Learn to handle yourself. Get counselling if you need to, or
just buck up and look at things directly and make choices instead of
feeling swept along by things beyond your power.
http://sandradodd.com/choices

Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and
hatred therewith.—Proverbs 15:7
(provided by Nancy Wooton, who knows these things)
(from this page: http://sandradodd.com/negativity )

Sandra

Schuyler

You are starting from a very scared position. If I believed that sugar was equal to heroin I would be very scared too. I don't. I don't have any fears of sugar. I eat sugar cubes straight. Sometimes I just want that pure sugar taste. I can remember as a child filling a bowl with powdered sugar and just eating it. It was so lovely. But I wasn't addicted. It may have produced a serotonin response, it may have made me feel happier, but that didn't make me addicted to sugar. I just like it, sometimes, so I have it.  

I was thinking about what the worst that could happen to you if you allowed yourself sugar, if you didn't see it as something that was controlling you and so you brought it into your home and made it easily accessible. You could eat a lot of sugar, maybe you'd get heavier, maybe you wouldn't, but I'm imagining worst case scenerios. You might get cavities, but that's only going to happen if you have the cavity producing bacteria, and as adults tend to have fewer of those bacteria, it's probably not going to change anything.

So those were the scariest things that I could come up with. You could get fat, you might get a few more cavities, but probably not. What would you gain, though, if you overcame your fear of sugar? What would you gain if you got to a point, like Kelly Lovejoy who loved, loved, loved M&Ms and would eat them to gone as soon as they came in the house and then one day just gave herself permission and bought a bunch of bags of M&Ms and ate and ate and refilled bowl after bowl until she was done? Now the M&Ms don't go very quickly in the Lovejoy's house. You'd gain a world of food choices back. You wouldn't see food as something to be afraid of.  You wouldn't be susceptible to stories about addiction to things like food or video games or television 'cause you'd lived through your own fears, you'd walked to the other side. 

My favorite examination of addiction is the work Bruce Alexander has done starting with Rat Park.  http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2007.12-health-rat-trap/%c2%a0is a good place to read about it. Maybe it will give you a different perspective on addiction. And maybe a change in perspective will help you to see how you can be strong enough to keep your son's world of food rich and varied and flavored with sugar, when he wants it so.  

Schuyler


 



________________________________
From: Maria <maria.veltman@...>
So...the question I have has to do with sweets.  We don't have many in our house because I'm a recovering sugar addict (to sucrose, high fructose corn syrup).  In the same way an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol.  If it is in the house, I will consume it.  If I know it's in the cupboard, it's all I can think about, and usually, I'll eat it all in on sitting and then go out for more (downward spiral).  If it belongs to someone else, I will try not to eat it, but it's very difficult (it's amazing what justifications one can come up with).  The result is that I become very agitated, anxious, angry, controlling, out of control when I have it (depends on what I'm eating, some things are worse than others).  I also have done some reading on sugar (primarily sucrose) that has led me to understand that it's not really a food but acts more like a drug, and I want to protect him from that (much in the same I protect him from illicit drugs, multiple/early
vaccines, etc).  But I also know that some people can handle sweets better (just like all people don't become alcoholics).  I would like Seth to be able to enjoy the sweet treats he wants/likes and I don't want to be a Nazi about it because I don't want him to develop eating issues.  I also want him to eat or not eat things based on what he knows about them, but I don't know that he's old enough to understand the hows and whys (of Red #40, for instance).  So, is it unreasonable for me to not get the things he likes because I can't handle myself?  Am I not seeing another solution here?  Or am I making a mountain out of a molehill? 

Maria 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-I'm a recovering sugar addict (to sucrose, high fructose corn
syrup). In the same way an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. If it is
in the house, I will consume it. -=-

>>>> Why don't you get over that? It's not an addiction the way an
alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. It's more likely something you're
carrying from childhood about having been good, or done some work, and
rewarding yourself with sugar. It's more likely a habit. Try sugar
free gum when you want to put something sweet in your mouth. Cinnamon-
soaked toothpicks. Don't pass your food problems on to your child.
Get over them. Learn to deal with them in ways other than depriving
your whole family of a food you prefer to call "addiction." <<<<

Glucose and fats are brain food and kids eat a lot of those two groups
because they *need* them. The need for sugar during periods of rapid
growth is not a childish delusion. Adult physiology is very different
from child physiology. I think for adults too much sugar consumption
can cause short term discomfort that sometimes develop into longer term
problems.

I am not convinced that sugar consumption leads to diabetes for
instance, a disease that medical literature has waffled on for decades.
They don't seem able to provide a direct causal link to sugar
consumption, just citing in most cases insulin resistance for which
they do *not* know the cause. My inexpert guess is that it's genetic
or perhaps environmental/genetic. If it were directly caused by sugar
consumption, what about all the people who eat a lot of sweets and
never develop diabetic health problems?

Things like gout (which occurs in an extremely small usually male
percentage of the population) *are* directly related to sugar
consumption with a tendency in certain individuals of uric (sp?) acid
buildup in the joints. I think I've had just one instance of gout when
an uninjured knee was just absolutely killing me after several days
(Christmas) of little exercise and lots of sweets. I was staying at
someone else's house. I drank a lot of water to get over it.

I can get carried away, especially if I don't have other fun snack
options with fiber in the hull and other good things.

It's just as possible for adults to use strategies for eating healthier
foods as it is for parents to provide a generous range of eating
options for children that offer all kinds of favorites along with
appealing healthy options right next to those.

Don't deprive yourself. Find healthy alternatives that you enjoy.
They may be sweets too with elements of healthier eating. Fresh fruit
and smoothies with additional other stuff in them. I have a friend who
makes the best smoothies using nuts, veggies and fruits. Yummy. Those
are a meal in themselves.

~Katherine

Mary Hickcox

I think Sandra's point is a great one.  I was also just letting the kids pick what they wanted but of course they don't have the knowledge base we do about what all the options may be.  Thanks for mentioning that because it has been bothering me lately.  I think putting together menus of many choices before going to the grocery store together may be a fun idea.  My oldest loves looking on allrecipes.com so maybe he can help.  Try and relax and offer good choices along with the ones he already knows.  Get him helping in preparation, food always tastes better when they help and it's a fun way to spend time together and get a chore(making dinner) done:)  I am also fond of sneaking in a little bit of health.  When they say yum and ask what is in it I always tell them!  My favorite is a carrot (lots of carrot) alfredo sauce.  A big hit here.  Thanks for the topic and advice

Mary mama to Dylan (10), Colin (5 1/2) and Theo Benjamin (born 8-28-07)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown   "Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

Maria

>
> -=-I was reading some articles on Joyfully Rejoycing and I have really
> been trying to allow Seth, who's 3.5, to choose when, what and where
> to eat. -=-
>
> Instead of that, it might have been better to just stop trying to
> "make him" finish his food. Not make him taste things. Give him
> choices between two things. Let him have seconds. Let him eat cake.

We have, for the most part, stopped making him finish. Sometimes I catch myself telling him to finish something and then stop, and for the most part, when he's done, he's done. I don't make him eat his crusts, and I try not to ask him more than once if he'd like to try something. I do allow him to eat cake, and he has in the past had as many "Newman-O's" as he wanted (they're basically a "healthier" version of the Oreo).

>
> -=-I totally get that if both his father and I have unlimited access
> to food and can eat whenever we want, and whatever we want, than he
> should also be able to-=-
>
> But you could drive to Burger King or go to a fancy restaurant and
> whip out a charge card, and he can't. If you start feeling like you
> haven't had a big old salad bar for a while, you can make that
> decision. For a three year old, you need to be the one who thinks of
> the variety and provides several choices.
>
> This is one good way:
> http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters
>
> It's not the same as saying to a three year old "What in all of the
> earth do you want to eat?"


All very good points that I hadn't thought of. Will make some monkey platters!
>
> -=-...or having to try something we've made for ourselves. If he
> chooses to sit at the table with us, we make him something he wants
> (usually it's a PB&J sandwich).=-
>
> If you literally ask him "What do you want?" and he says peanut
> butter, it might be because his knowledge and imagination are three
> years old. Instead of things you've "made for yourselves," what about
> having food he likes, as a family, as a group sometimes?

We do do this: pizza is one of them. The puzzling thing is that there were some things he liked, that he now says he doesn't like (spaghetti, tuna noodle casserole, etc), and I think it's not that he doesn't like them but because of the big deal we made in the past about sitting down with us for dinner (we really f***ed up on that one).
>
> -=-I'm a recovering sugar addict (to sucrose, high fructose corn
> syrup). In the same way an alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. If it is
> in the house, I will consume it. -=-
>
> Why don't you get over that? It's not an addiction the way an
> alcoholic is addicted to alcohol. It's more likely something you're
> carrying from childhood about having been good, or done some work, and
> rewarding yourself with sugar. It's more likely a habit. Try sugar
> free gum when you want to put something sweet in your mouth. Cinnamon-
> soaked toothpicks. Don't pass your food problems on to your child.
> Get over them. Learn to deal with them in ways other than depriving
> your whole family of a food you prefer to call "addiction."

What you are saying here is something I've been thinking about but don't want to let go of. I'm reading Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" and it's pretty much making me question all of the "stories" I'm telling myself (many of which are the cause of my own suffering). That this is one of those stories. My husband suggested that my calling it an addiction is a way for me to not take responsibility for my actions.

>
> -=- The result is that I become very agitated, anxious, angry,
> controlling, out of control when I have it (depends on what I'm
> eating, some things are worse than others).-=-
>
> Is some of that guilt and frustration? Is all of your agitation
> related to wishing you hadn't eaten something and blaming "an
> addiction"?
>
> -=-I also have done some reading on sugar (primarily sucrose) that has
> led me to understand that it's not really a food but acts more like a
> drug, and I want to protect him from that-=-
>
> Maybe you should do more reading, or less reading. <g> It's easy to
> find alarmist articles about how the sky is falling because of caffein
> or sugar or fats or bread is the perfect food or bread is practically
> poison or drink more water or drink different water or take vitamin C
> or don't waste your time on vitamins to eat fruit to I can't believe
> you're eating the skins of those plums, don't you know that's
> poison? (I hope you read that all in one breath; if not, try again,
> aloud.)
>
> Now breathe two or three DEEP breaths and think of whether that
> breathless fear is the mountain you want your child to live under. Do
> you want him to live in fear of Red #40 OH MY GOD it might crawl out
> from under the bed and get him while he sleeps.

Thank you for this reality check.

>
> He will be MUCH, much better off with a mother who's smiling, who's
> learning to handle her own fears rather than putting them out to him
> and the world around.
>
> If you hate food colors, don't have any, but don't turn it into a
> crusade against the devil and all evil corporations. If you want a
> happy peaceful home, you need to be happy and at peace.
>
> -= So, is it unreasonable for me to not get the things he likes
> because I can't handle myself? -=-
>
> Yes. Learn to handle yourself. Get counselling if you need to, or
> just buck up and look at things directly and make choices instead of
> feeling swept along by things beyond your power.
> http://sandradodd.com/choices
>
> Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and
> hatred therewith.�Proverbs 15:7
> (provided by Nancy Wooton, who knows these things)
> (from this page: http://sandradodd.com/negativity )
>
> Sandra
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/2/2009 11:56:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
maria.veltman@... writes:

<<<The puzzling thing is that there were some things he liked, that he now
says he doesn't like (spaghetti, tuna noodle casserole, etc), and I think
it's not that he doesn't like them>>>



Many times people's tastes change. I used to like home-canned green beans.
I don't any more. I didn't used to like mayonnaise to any degree, but I
can eat a small bit occasionally, now.

It's really hard for a person to learn to listen to what their body is
telling them if someone else (especially a parent) is telling them that "you
say you don't like that, but it isn't really that you don't like that
anymore...". It is very important for me to trust what my children are telling me
about their feelings and what their own bodies are telling them, because I
really *don't* know how they are feeling or thinking or hurting. Even if I
weren't to say "you're not *really* hurt, that was just a small bump" and
just thinking it, that vibe comes across to my kid-no matter how hard I try
to disguise it. An additional bonus is that once I started learning to
trust what my kids were telling me about little basics, like hurts and hunger
or fullness, it expanded into everything. It erased that "traditional
parenting" mindset that tends to say that kids are always trying to pull one over
on a parent for some reason or other. It not only helped our relationship,
its ever so much simpler than trying to second-guess someone all the time!


Peace,
De
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ed Wendell

If you'd like to read more, here are a couple of books I've read in the past year that was helpful for me - the children's book I found helpful in the broader range of thinking for myself and how I treat food for my own self.

Preventing Childhood Eating Problems - gives some great ways to actually break free step by step - go in gentle steps and ease up a bit at a time as suggested by Sandra and many others on here. It give you a game plan - or at least some ides for a game plan to ease into how you could do this.

For adults: Intuitive Eating

Another author I've liked so far:

Geneen Roth - she has a web site plus books and audios


Lisa W.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Verna

--- In [email protected], Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 5/2/2009 11:56:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> maria.veltman@... writes:
>
> <<<The puzzling thing is that there were some things he liked, that he now
> says he doesn't like (spaghetti, tuna noodle casserole, etc), and I think
> it's not that he doesn't like them>>>
>
It took me awhile to realize that just because my kids like something doesnt mean they always want to eat it. Sometimes they say they dont like it to get you off their back... they just dont want that right now.
I remember as a kid doing that.
And sometimes it just itnt their first choice.

Joyce Fetteroll

> The puzzling thing is that there were some things he liked, that he
> now says he doesn't like (spaghetti, tuna noodle casserole, etc),
> and I think it's not that he doesn't like them but because of the
> big deal we made in the past about sitting down with us for dinner
> (we really f***ed up on that one).
>

Liking something shouldn't come with a commitment to like it
forever ;-) Tastes change, especially kid tastes. They become more
aware of textures. Their body chemistry changes and things taste
different.

Sometimes they're tired of something.

And really it shouldn't make a difference! I think I wouldn't want
quizzed on a change of taste. Sometimes it's just because.

It will show him you care if you honor his shifting tastes, even if
it's because he felt pressured before. He'll come around. Or not. But
the quickest way for him to decide he'll try them again is by
removing all pressure. If you put pressure on to correct something
caused by pressure, it's no different than the original pressure.

Joyce

hmbpie

We are new to unschooling so I am reaching out to ask for help on our biggest hiccup so far. Eating. We have a long ugly history with eating in this house when it comes to my son. He was born in renal failure and on dialysis by the time he was 7 months. You aren't hungry when your body is toxic so he missed out on that wonderful time when babies start trying cereal and rice and smooshed up fruits and veggies. He had a g-tube placed to get his calories and didn't eat a single bite of food for over two years when he got his transplant. Then we started therapy for his oral aversion. If I could take it back I would because I really feel in my heart of hearts that what we learned to do in therapy made things worse. Fast forward to present day (he's 9 now) and he is still getting more than half his calories through his g-tube. Improvements have been made but they have been painfully slow. It's been six years since his transplant and I think food to him is something that is scary and something to control. Today we went to Fresh Choice and he picked pickles, olives, shredded cheese and Dr. Pepper and not a lot of it either. Oh and bread. I asked him if we could go through the line again and pick some things he had never tried before and if he didn't like them he could spit them out. My little guy. He went through the line and made a grand effort. He picked Chinese chicken salad, rotini noodles, carrots, cucumber and broccoli salad. We went and sat back down and he tried everything on his plate. First the noodles. He gagged and spit them out. Then the cucumbers and carrots which he didn't gag on but didn't like. The chicken salad he was able to distinguish what was chicken and what was cabbage and picked the cabbage out and then broccoli salad which almost made him vomit. It was very disheartening to see him try and have a physical reaction to the food. I tried to hide it but he knew I was disappointed and I feel like a freaking jerk for it. I told him I wasn't disappointed in him that I was so proud that he even tried. He tried his best, no doubt to try to please me, to try something new and he just couldn't do it.

I guess my question is how do I help him to get over food is scary? How do I undo the damage? How do I turn my thinking so it's not so scary for me to look at him and his lack of eating and not be fearful? I've told myself I am just going to sit on my hands and shut my mouth and let him eat whatever he does but when he doesn't eat dinner at all or only eats a bite and proclaims he is full my worry-o-meter shoots way up and I don't know how to balance being happy with the way he eats and my desire to make sure he eats well and really in the end gets rid of his g-tube.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:30 PM, hmbpie wrote:

> I guess my question is how do I help him to get over food is scary?
> How do I undo the damage? How do I turn my thinking so it's not so
> scary for me to look at him and his lack of eating and not be fearful?

By making *not* changing not stressful.

If someone were hovering, wishing you'd change something about
yourself, would you feel more like letting go?

And it's possible it isn't the tubes. What you're seeing may be what
he would have done anyway. Kathryn survived on pickles and olives from
4 to 11. Okay, there *were* a few more things ;-), but really and
truly, what she would eat was very very narrow. Cereal, some fruit,
fresh macaroni with real cheese. It was a challenge to make meals with
at least one thing she liked that she wasn't bored with.

Once pre-puberty hit -- and it might be a bit later for boys -- she
was suddenly eating a wide variety again.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kirstin Eventyr

My question is what do you need to make it possible for you to go ahead and
sit on those hands, keep quiet and let him eat what he wants? What will make
this possible for you? Maybe just staying in the present and not worrying
about what the future will look like would help. I know it is often my fears
of the future that take me off track about what would be my best choices and
actions in the now.
Kirstin

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:45 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:

>
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 7:30 PM, hmbpie wrote:
>
> > I guess my question is how do I help him to get over food is scary?
> > How do I undo the damage? How do I turn my thinking so it's not so
> > scary for me to look at him and his lack of eating and not be fearful?
>
> By making *not* changing not stressful.
>
> If someone were hovering, wishing you'd change something about
> yourself, would you feel more like letting go?
>
> And it's possible it isn't the tubes. What you're seeing may be what
> he would have done anyway. Kathryn survived on pickles and olives from
> 4 to 11. Okay, there *were* a few more things ;-), but really and
> truly, what she would eat was very very narrow. Cereal, some fruit,
> fresh macaroni with real cheese. It was a challenge to make meals with
> at least one thing she liked that she wasn't bored with.
>
> Once pre-puberty hit -- and it might be a bit later for boys -- she
> was suddenly eating a wide variety again.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hmbpie

Thank you Joyce,

I feel so much anxiety that it's not going to be OK. Even though I tell
myself we have this tube and should be grateful we do because if a day
goes by where he only eats a pickle and an olive we can just adjust the
amount of calories he gets at night deep down I don't feel that way.

Tonight at dinner I told myself to just shut up, have a normal
conversation and don't say "take a bite" or whatever else comes to mind
to remind him to eat or that he hasn't had enough. Stupid I know. In
my head I see his plate and the voice gets louder and louder and louder,
"he's not eating! He's not eating! He's not eating!" And it really
sucked because we were playing this awesome game he made up and all I
could think was, "he's forgetting to eat." I must sound completely
insane.

Should I get up from the table when this happens? Leave the room? The
cycle that's hard to break is the feeding therapy/training we've been
through. It was so based in taking control away from him and giving it
to whoever was feeding him and we did that therapy for 5 or so years and
look at where it got us. All that money and time and damage done to
Austin. Ugh, it makes me sick to say but it's there and it's in my
head.

Any advice is welcome. Thanks again,

Heather

P.S. I have seen alot of things in response that have to do with food
choices. We give them every time. Tonight he chose butter noodles with
parmesean and when I put it in front of him he literally acted like it
was poison. How do I not show my irritation that I made a separate
dinner for him that he asked for and now I have to get flack for it?
Sigh.

Austin always goes to the grocery store or farmer's market with us and
he can choose whatever he wants. Most of the time he is super excited
about picking his food and is very inquisitive about, well, everything
there and will always try samples. Last week he decided he wanted to be
vegetarian like me and we talked and talked about the differences
between veggie and vegan diets. He was going to be veggie first then
try vegan. When we came home and I would prepare the food he picked it
was a no go. It wasn't weird stuff either. Somewhere between the store
and home he lost the enthusiasum and didn't want to try the food he
picked.

Another week it was dips. We loaded up on dips and chips and were going
to have a dip dinner night. That night, same thing. He wouldn't try
anything he had picked out.

I can sense he is just trying to please me. No doubt he
feels/sees/hears my anxiety. Any ideas on a chant I can have in my
pocket for when the food is there and he doesn't want to try it instead
of what I have stuck in there which is "take a bite" until I can change
this awful attitude I have towards my son and his eating habits?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On 10/11/2010 9:48 PM, hmbpie wrote:
>
> Should I get up from the table when this happens? Leave the room?

Maybe that would be a good idea. Are there things he does like at all?
Milk shakes? Cookies? Smoothies? String cheese? Crackers? A little
chunk of melon? Some very sweet grapes or berries? I'd suggest making
small monkey platters of little bits of things he might possibly like -
things he's tried and been okay with in the past, and things that are
very similar. Little bits of things. Those foods you listed were all
things that LOTS of 9 year olds don't like.

So - maybe if he's off playing, just take him a little plate with a few
little bits of things on it that he might nibble at. Leave it nearby and
leave the room. If he eats it, fine. If not, just don't say anything.
And - why are you sitting down to dinner with a kid who has such strong
aversions to food? That seems very counterproductive - makes the whole
thing into a big deal.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On 10/11/2010 9:48 PM, hmbpie wrote:
> Ugh, it makes me sick to say but it's there and it's in my
> head.

You're sitting there thinking,"Take a bite, oh PLEASE take a bite." I
think you shouldn't be around him and food.

Really - I think you should let him have food around outside your
presence. And let him go dump the plate so you don't even know if he's
eaten. I am not sure you should be taking him shopping and letting him
pick out things because that sounds like pressure on him, too.

-pam