"Lazy and spoiled"
Sandra Dodd
Anonymous question:
___________________
We have been unschooling for almost two years. It's been an amazing journey of growth and peeling away layers of old thinking and forging new paths.
Our children are 13, 11, 9 and 6 and we are fortunate enough to be able to give them a very abundant and happy life style. As a result of this abundance and the space and support we give our children my oldest son has started reflecting on his friends (homeschooled and schooled) life styles and has decided he is spoiled and lazy and that video games have made him forgetful. We don't force our children to do chores or jobs around the house so I have offered to set up jobs that he could do to feel more useful but he has declined the offer.
My instinct is telling me his awareness has had a developmental jump and he is feeling guilty for having so much and he is wanting to be more involved but also enjoying his childhood and is torn.
I'm not sure how to best handle this situation so I'm reaching out for your sage advice.
Thank you for your time.
___________________
We have been unschooling for almost two years. It's been an amazing journey of growth and peeling away layers of old thinking and forging new paths.
Our children are 13, 11, 9 and 6 and we are fortunate enough to be able to give them a very abundant and happy life style. As a result of this abundance and the space and support we give our children my oldest son has started reflecting on his friends (homeschooled and schooled) life styles and has decided he is spoiled and lazy and that video games have made him forgetful. We don't force our children to do chores or jobs around the house so I have offered to set up jobs that he could do to feel more useful but he has declined the offer.
My instinct is telling me his awareness has had a developmental jump and he is feeling guilty for having so much and he is wanting to be more involved but also enjoying his childhood and is torn.
I'm not sure how to best handle this situation so I'm reaching out for your sage advice.
Thank you for your time.
Sandra Dodd
-=-As a result of this abundance and the space and support we give our children my oldest son has started reflecting on his friends (homeschooled and schooled) life styles and has decided he is spoiled and lazy and that video games have made him forgetful. We don't force our children to do chores or jobs around the house…-=-
But you don’t make him play video games, either.
I think you’re right that he’s playing with the ideas.
In the same way that he might be feeling a bit guilty because his life is less pressured than those of his friends—that he believes the and wants to identify with them— they, too, want to believe what their parents are saying. I think if some of them have said “spoiled” to him, or “lazy,” they were quoting or projecting what their parents have said to them. And they want to believe their parents and to feel that the limitations and rules and schedules and deprivations (if any) are for a good purpose. They want to beleive that they are suffering (however slightly it might be) for a purpose.
So it would be best if he didn’t argue with them about their own home lives.
But it’s also not advantageous to them, or him, for him to have limits or deprivations in an unschooling environment.
When one of my kids expressed concern that maybe there should be more structure or more something, I would say something like “If you think of something that would make it better, let me know.”
The thinking involved (if any) on their part usually helped them rationalize or accept or see or forget about the temporary angst.
Maybe in little snippets and bits you could respond with “That’s part of schooling,” or “most families think that.” Tiny comments that the kid can consider, and hold up like a lens or prism to various situations.
If he seems really stuck on it and agitated, consider a car trip, just you and him—maybe just a couple of hours away—so conversation can come up in a side-by-side way.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
But you don’t make him play video games, either.
I think you’re right that he’s playing with the ideas.
In the same way that he might be feeling a bit guilty because his life is less pressured than those of his friends—that he believes the and wants to identify with them— they, too, want to believe what their parents are saying. I think if some of them have said “spoiled” to him, or “lazy,” they were quoting or projecting what their parents have said to them. And they want to believe their parents and to feel that the limitations and rules and schedules and deprivations (if any) are for a good purpose. They want to beleive that they are suffering (however slightly it might be) for a purpose.
So it would be best if he didn’t argue with them about their own home lives.
But it’s also not advantageous to them, or him, for him to have limits or deprivations in an unschooling environment.
When one of my kids expressed concern that maybe there should be more structure or more something, I would say something like “If you think of something that would make it better, let me know.”
The thinking involved (if any) on their part usually helped them rationalize or accept or see or forget about the temporary angst.
Maybe in little snippets and bits you could respond with “That’s part of schooling,” or “most families think that.” Tiny comments that the kid can consider, and hold up like a lens or prism to various situations.
If he seems really stuck on it and agitated, consider a car trip, just you and him—maybe just a couple of hours away—so conversation can come up in a side-by-side way.
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
#1, no one responded to this anonymous question besides me, for a week.
#2, when someone did, I didn’t approve the message. When I tried to write and say so, the e-mail bounced.
So if the person being quoted below sees this, please go into your yahoo account and change to whichever e-mail you’re using. Thank you.
Without naming the person who wrote this, I want to quote and comment on it. The post would’ve come out in one huge block of text, so all the breaks were going to be mine anyway. I’ll comment as it goes.
As a review, the original question was about a 13 year old boy whose friends (schooled and homeschooled) are making him doubt (after two years of the family deciding to unschool) whether he might not really be lazy and spoiled.
_________
Strewing is explained with examples:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
It’s not about talking to kids about theories.
“Your lifestyle,” if that means unschooling, is all about experimenting and exploring—in that living without a strict schedule and structure promotes trying different things, or making more in-the-moment decisions than most kids get to make.
To the rest of this, it’s MUCH too much, and has the feel of a giant unit study, rather than the possibility of casual conversation.
Overwhelming a 13 year old is not going to help unschooling.
As an antidote, for anyone who has read this far, and for the author of “the small potatoes” and “the fun stuff,” here:
https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Live gently and directly with your children. Comfort them. Smile at them.
For the person whose e-mail bounced and anyone else who wonders why I would have objected to the post I quoted:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning/
Sandra
#2, when someone did, I didn’t approve the message. When I tried to write and say so, the e-mail bounced.
So if the person being quoted below sees this, please go into your yahoo account and change to whichever e-mail you’re using. Thank you.
Without naming the person who wrote this, I want to quote and comment on it. The post would’ve come out in one huge block of text, so all the breaks were going to be mine anyway. I’ll comment as it goes.
As a review, the original question was about a 13 year old boy whose friends (schooled and homeschooled) are making him doubt (after two years of the family deciding to unschool) whether he might not really be lazy and spoiled.
_________
>“Supportive” for unschooler who has just asked for help from other unschoolers probably does NOT involve “proactivity.” I bristled at the first line of that post, because it was insulting either the mom, or my (the only) response to her request.
> I think a supportive response to his angst involves a little more proactivity on your part.
> I would "strew", as we say, with a lot of theories about structure and time management that he can experiment with.“We” (speaking not only for the long-time unschoolers in this group, but for me, Sandra Dodd) don’t think strewing involves a lot of theories about structure and time management. Not even nearly.
Strewing is explained with examples:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
It’s not about talking to kids about theories.
> He already knows your values. He's at an age to find his own, and your lifestyle makes it really easy to experiment and explore.Thirteen-year-old boys are rarely conversant about their parents values. They could probably deduce them if pressed, but there’s no reason to press them to do so.
“Your lifestyle,” if that means unschooling, is all about experimenting and exploring—in that living without a strict schedule and structure promotes trying different things, or making more in-the-moment decisions than most kids get to make.
> The small potatoes: Rather than, "If you think of something, get back to me," I would say, "We have the flexibility to experiment and we can design an experiment together. If you want to see how it feels to have a timer on your game time, I can help you set it up, but I'm not going to nag you if you play past the time. Another approach is to give yourself tasks you have to do before you even start. Some people like to make sure they get outside in the morning. Some people find they're more creative at one time of day than another.”Yeah, it really IS about my response, then. Rather than let him recover from the shaming of friends in his own time, I don’t think having the mom state obvious possibilites for him at length or to recommend setting up “have to do” situations will lead the mom or the son toward a better understanding of unschooling.
> A little experimenting can help him get to know himself. Freedom and fluidity isn't at odds with ritual or intentionality. I remember myself at twelve being suddenly very aware of my daily ups-and-downs in terms of creativity, restlessness, intellectual energy, physical energy, etc. I was in school so I couldn't really explore my time the way your son can, but time definitely took on new meaning and depth at that age, maybe because of new awareness of my body, maybe because it's when you can get engrossed in one activity while also holding in your head your desire to do a number of other things.I have no objection to that, if the experementing isn’t imposed on him with him as the subject.
To the rest of this, it’s MUCH too much, and has the feel of a giant unit study, rather than the possibility of casual conversation.
Overwhelming a 13 year old is not going to help unschooling.
> The fun stuff: This would be a great opportunity to explore together the anthropology of time. Every religion has something to say about time, science has lots of conflicting things to say about it, and a new book from last year studies hunter-gatherers' relationship with time. Is it better to plan or not plan? Lots of scientists study well-being around this question. Is it better to watch the clock or avoid it? Better to limit the good things or do them endlessly? Better to force yourself to do what you don't like, or avoid them? Better to force yourself to do things that don't offer instant gratification, or avoid them? Greek philosophers, Zen teachers, the Jewish Bible, contemporary anxiety culture... Your son is asking one of the primal questions of being human, at exactly the age when existentialism begins to really take off. The answer is that there are people who thrive with every model, and your son has to decide what works for him.If it could be made fair, someone somewhere might have figured it out. A boy who is already burdened with his own problems will not be helped by pouring a mom’s poetry preferences and Ayn Rand and politics all over his head. Nor would the relationship between the mother and child.
> An excerpt from a poem by the wonderful Mary Oliver: "Tell me, what is it that you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" What a complicated line that is. It reminds us that we are all wild, but it also expects us to make a plan around it. It captures the tensions of living, although for the rest of the poem she's watching a grasshopper eat out of her hand, so she's definitely not a stressball.
> There's a lifetime of exciting learning behind your son's question.
> Good luck,
> Anna
> P.S. If your son follows politics, notice together the cultural narrative around "laziness". In the political landscape, laziness is a really handy shorthand certain politicians use (ahem, Paul Ryan). When do people use that word and who do they use it for? What policies are they promoting when they describe lazy people? (In my opinion, laziness is a Protestant myth exploited by people who want to cut social programs.) Why are certain people so threatened by this idea of someone else being lazy? Why is that fear and shame so powerful? What is the moral stake for people or a community? Who gets to decide how other people use their time, and whether their choices have value? The real cohesive narrative comes from Protestantism, but you see the suspicion and resentment all over the world-- creation stories from Native Alaskan myths, Japanese folktales, etc. For a modern twist on the myths, study Ayn Rand and the implications of a "bootstraps" ethic. What does that mean for shared responsibility? What does that mean when you have an unequal playing field? How are these ideas marketed and who benefits? (This is an election year, so it'll be easy to trace.)
> P.P.S. In our culture, who does the work? How do we recognize work? By paying money. So what about all that free work that gets done? This is obviously geared toward noticing gender dynamics and the invisible work of women. Women work their asses off, get paid less, but also live longer. Is hard work good for people after all, even if it's unfair? How do we make it fair?
As an antidote, for anyone who has read this far, and for the author of “the small potatoes” and “the fun stuff,” here:
https://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Live gently and directly with your children. Comfort them. Smile at them.
For the person whose e-mail bounced and anyone else who wonders why I would have objected to the post I quoted:
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning/
Sandra
semajrak@...
***my oldest son has started reflecting on his friends (homeschooled and schooled) life styles and has decided he is spoiled and lazy***
My son started looking for more challenges around the age of thirteen/fourteen. I think his interests began to change, and he wasn't really sure what to do. He mentioned casually one time that he wondered if he was doing enough. I considered what I knew about him, and offered some ideas--not right in that moment, but over a little bit of time.
A couple of the things I suggested he decided to try. One of them is a martial art called Kenpo. He's enjoying the challenge of that. He also started playing the keyboard. I set it up close to him so that he could access it easily. He started playing some of the video game music he likes to listen to. He found it by ear and by watching people play in videos. Just recently he decided to take some lessons to help him learn to read music. He's finding the lessons challenging and fun so far.
We talked about traveling, and he thought that might be fun, which is very different for him, as over the past few years he hasn't wanted to travel much at all. We looked together to see if there were any new video games we could play together or he could play alone or with friends. I added a couple trivia and universe books to his collection, knowing those usually spark some interesting conversations and maybe curiosities as well. Knowing his love for chemistry, I picked up a fairly advanced chemistry kit for him.
My son started looking for more challenges around the age of thirteen/fourteen. I think his interests began to change, and he wasn't really sure what to do. He mentioned casually one time that he wondered if he was doing enough. I considered what I knew about him, and offered some ideas--not right in that moment, but over a little bit of time.
A couple of the things I suggested he decided to try. One of them is a martial art called Kenpo. He's enjoying the challenge of that. He also started playing the keyboard. I set it up close to him so that he could access it easily. He started playing some of the video game music he likes to listen to. He found it by ear and by watching people play in videos. Just recently he decided to take some lessons to help him learn to read music. He's finding the lessons challenging and fun so far.
We talked about traveling, and he thought that might be fun, which is very different for him, as over the past few years he hasn't wanted to travel much at all. We looked together to see if there were any new video games we could play together or he could play alone or with friends. I added a couple trivia and universe books to his collection, knowing those usually spark some interesting conversations and maybe curiosities as well. Knowing his love for chemistry, I picked up a fairly advanced chemistry kit for him.
In short, I looked at him--what I know about him, what I'm learning about him as he grows and changes, and offered some suggestions and guidance, and worked with him to get the creative juices going. He seems to have a good flow again.
***has decided he is spoiled and lazy and that video games have made him forgetful***
***has decided he is spoiled and lazy and that video games have made him forgetful***
Surgeons play video games before surgery. Many of the engineering and computer science professors I've met through my husband's work played a lot of video games as kids and throughout the course of their studies. (Some are anti-games as parents, which is weird to me, but whatever.) My husband played video games from an early age. Later, he and I used to play video games for hours at night after I came home from work and while he was in pursuit of his PhD degree. He still plays video games regularly and is a full professor in computer science at Stanford and a part time employee at Pixar. He is not spoiled, lazy or forgetful. I'm the forgetful one, but I doubt it's due to video games. :-)
Maybe play some video games with your son. Notice the cool things he's doing and help him see them too. Maybe consider taking him to a video game conference. Often universities have video game design courses and hold a competition at the end of term. We've gone to a few of those. They're fun. The folks who make games are some of the most enthusiastic folks I've met! I have no desire to make video games, but I find their drive and creativity so inspiring. I find the passion that people have for playing games exciting and inspiring too! Perhaps you son would also, and perhaps it would help him view his own pursuits in a more positive light.
Karen James
belinda.dutch@...
I think he is playing with ideas, as you say. Thirteen can indeed be an age of change and transition - it can be tricky! But not always. I think there can be a feeling of being adrift at that age. Of wanting to seize the world but not being ready. Being uncomfortable with being a 'child'. Maybe this is a seed of his idea that he is 'lazy', that he wants to greet more adult challenges. But they will have to be HIS, not ones his mum thought up for him!!! (unless she does it tactfully and subtly of course!). Does he like outdoor challenges? Would he like to go on a week of something challenging without his siblings? Time with his Dad? Just an idea, my son wouldn't have done it but my daughter did.
My boy is now 16 and happily unschooling (with a few self imposed bits of study thrown in), but when he was about 12 and his sister 11, I remember we had a conversation about types of schooling as their friends seemed to experience so many different school backgrounds and my children seemed a bit unsure about our choices in relation to others. They started off in Kindergarten at the local Steiner school together but since they went their separate ways their friends ended up in so many different 'educational' environments, but were still their friends, that we found it interesting to look at it as a 'scale' with radical unschooling at one end and academic private schools at the other. We even sketched a line! We talked about what each end was like, what the middle would be like... I asked them where they thought they were on that scale, and where instinctively they felt they'd like to be, what would be a good fit for them. Where each of their friends was. It was just a fun exercise to help them see an overview of where they fitted in, and choices we'd made that were different to their friends'. A launching point for conversations about our choices. In the end my son decided he was a good fit for where we felt we were, and that many of his friends would be happier if they were doing what he was doing! (It was slightly different for my daughter who felt more strongly that she was 'missing out' but that's a different story of discovery for her). Then we talked about possible reasons why their friends weren't following the same path. It was an easy, non academic way of bringing the idea of choices and conscious decisions about our path into the conversation but I only talked about it as long as they were interested - which they were for quite a while.
When I talk now to my son about things he said when he was 13 he will say things like 'but I was so annoying then I annoyed myself'. Which says to me that it was tricky. I certainly found it so.
At 16 he now has a really close group of friends, whom he has got close to independently of family input for the past year or so. They have a closed 'discord' group and game online together but also meet up locally to have silly fun. Half of them are unschooled, one radically, and half are at school, studying for exams. They seem to be able to make it work between them, not sure how! I can't imagine how the schooled boys feel about the freedom their unschooled friends have but they don't try to knock their lifestyle choices as stupid, lazy or having no future, there seems to be mutual respect and understanding. I think this is beautiful and wonder if it's a product of them being a bit older and wiser, but also being able to discuss their lives - I hear them talking about these things online together, along with all the whooping and joshing. They seem so philosophical!!! I think the thing that my son has learned most of all on his unschooling journey is a sense of who he is which makes him happy to accept others.
Hopefully these musings can help you and your son find perspective on the journey you are on. I had a job on my hands over the concept of 'laziness' with my husband, a familiar story, but at 16 my son has found a course at the local college called 'games design' which covers so many areas of creative media that it's really exciting. People from this course have gone on to well paid work for car designers, as graphic designers, film makers, as well as games design studios and university, and all this from his love of gaming. It's such an exciting, expanding area with jobs being created now that we don't even know exist!!! He's fired up and creating a portfolio of ideas with a graphics tablet. I'm not saying this is something to talk to a 13 year old about, as he should be doing it for joy not career prospects, but something for you to keep in mind.
Belinda
Cherie Gela
There seems to be a lot of future opportunity for gamers. Gamers are making money off of youtube- if they become so proficient at the game, people enjoy watching them play on youtube. (especially if they have an entertaining, comical or quirky personality.) I also just found out that one of the games my twins play daily- ROBLOX, pays their gamers to create other game platforms in their "builders club." So now my one son is drawing out all of his plans for what he is going to build. (He is getting builders club for his birthday, which is in a few weeks/ not sure how to build a game platform.. another awaiting adventure) I guess people on the outside don't understand or make assumptions about what unschooling is. My boys are on a gymnastic team and they are constantly getting drilled on school facts by their teammates. One friend suggested he goes to school bc he told him he wasn't learning enough. I just avoid conversations w/ the moms ( only talk about gymnastics) and I try to tell my boys to stop answering the questions… or throw a question back at them.. (my twins seem innocent and don't feel the pressure from them yet( But I still do…I am working on that) I think gaming is the future and your son has more time on his hands than school kids to explore what is out there. He could sign up for Meetups .com and put in his interests( gaming, technology….) and then they will email u when like minded people are gathering for an event . Then you just click whether you are going or not( some events aren't free)
Cherie