Sandra Dodd

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra

Eileen Mahowald

I really like this idea and M on a short trip and will get to it shortly.

💛 Eileen

On May 12, 2017, at 5:21 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra

Jo Isaac

==I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.==

I don't remember being taught anything about instincts at school, and I honestly haven't read much about instincts in humans either (until today!). I was born in 1970.

My 'instinct' (ha!) is that humans of course have instincts - how else would we have survived and evolved? I think modern humans may have lost touch with some of those instincts, because they aren't useful to us anymore - for the people who have solid houses, food in the fridge - wasting energy on instincts aimed at safety and finding food isn't beneficial.

Most humans still feel tired and then sleep, feel hungry and eat  - those are instinctual things we don't need to be 'taught'. A baby breast-feeding? Instincts would be complex behaviours that are adaptive, in an evolutionary sense, I would say.


==Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.==

Toward the end of my pregnancy, I knew instinctively that Kai was a boy. I don't know what the clues or indications were, I just 'knew' beyond doubt I was having a boy. Perhaps that instinct was adaptive in that it prepared me more for having him? That I knew his sex and was ready for a boy? I'm not sure. 


I'll keep looking - but for now, this was an interesting page: https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~port/teach/205/instinct.criteria.html

Jo

Joanne Gardner

Hi, 

I was born in 76 and was taught nothing about instincts in school until our Catholic High school showed us a video. In  it one teenage girl seemed to follow her instincts and ended up working as a waitress with a baby -  portrayed in shades of brown. Another girl was 'sensible and clever'. She didn't listen to those pesky instincts  OR what the boys said. She ended up in bright colours on rollerskates. 

Other than that I remember being struck when a friend of mine who was a police officer told me she taught school groups that I'd an adult's presence made you 'feel funny' then you didn't have to be polite, but should just get away from them and tell someone you trust. It just stuck me as so different to what I'd always been taught, both implicitly and explicitly. 

Jo


On 12 May 2017 23:21, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra

Nicole Kenyon

I was born in 1972 and don't remember being taught about instincts in school.  Yet the word instinct was mentioned a lot when I was pregnant.

Two examples:
I traveled to San Francisco and didn't realised I booked into a motel in a not so great area. It looked fine during the day but when I was walking back at night, not so much. I was alone and I saw a group of men walking towards me. At the same time I also saw another group on the other side of the road. My instinct or perhaps inner voice just clearly said to look straight up, not to show fear, not to cross but walk straight ahead. They gave way. I can't proof that this situation was dangerous but my instinct says it was.

Another example was where I was swimming. Each morning I went to swim in a creek. One morning, for no reason what so ever, I felt scared and thought of a crocodile. I left the creek, thinking I was just being silly, yet I felt the same the next day and at the end stopped swimming there. A few weeks later I found out that a ranger spotted a crocodile in that exact area.

Nicole

 

On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra



sukaynalabboun@...

I was taught that we have instincts (maybe in Biology and Psych in high school, definitely at university), but that we often intellectually override those instincts. Sometimes for cultural reasons- to follow your example, like putting bleu cheese in your mouth because  it's classy or whatever in spite of the smell, or because we have learned to ignore the signs about smell in that instance because it began to taste good, we knew it was safe, etc. 

I was born in the early 1970's, raised and educated  in CA if that matters.

sukaynalabboun@...

I forgot to mention my instincts-  I usually have a sense of someone BS-ing or up to no good, I feel it and see it when everyone around me still thinks the person is genuine, don't know if that counts under safety, self preservation?

Instinctively caring for my spouse and wanting him to be happy and comfortable when he's around....holding a crying baby or child, nursing a crying baby, taking care of injured or stray animals' needs, noticing when others need help and not being able to walk away?  

I slept better with all of my babies between myself and husband, no matter what, it was comfortable psychologically. Not forcing meds or yucky foods on unsuspecting babies- their little faces nonverbally told me to stop.  I guess a lot of my examples might be intrapersonal skills more than instincts, but sometimes I trust those feelings because they keep my family safe and happy. 

Maybe listening to my inner voice in spite of what culture says, thinking that voice holds more value (spanking just feels wrong, not doing it-for example) is a type of instinct, that ability to to not go with the flow in a quiet, subtle way after careful thought. Sorry if this is not what you wanted 😉

mellingersa@...

I truly believe in instinct in human beings but I also think especially in western society it's often ignored.
In my twenties I travelled the world solo (mostly Africa and the Middle East) for months at a time. Looking back I first of all hope my son will never do as risky endeavors ..... but more than that I can see that on several occasions I followed an "inner voice" in a kind of "get out of here it's not safe" or in a "these people or the situation feels safe" kind of way. I made it unharmed through hitchhiking across Africa, working and living in slums, joining a team to help refugees of the Ruanda war and many more.
Now, one could argue that was just lucky but in retrospective I remember several situations when I changed plans drastically because of an unsafe feeling.
In my late twenties I had another experience that I account to instinct. I for a long time had 2 small knots in my thyroid which were followed by an endocrinologist. I was always re-assured that they were harmless and the risk of taking them out much higher than the risk that they would ever become malignant. I would say it was probably 8-10 years into having these knots that I got the feeling of "I want them out". I had another checkup and the physician told me they had grown a tiny little bit but there was no reason to be concerned. I was concerned though and found despite many people telling me "I was not rational" a surgeon who would take them out for me. The day after the surgery he came to me and said that the pathology had come back as cancer and that he needed to go back and take the whole thyroid out. I had to have lymph-nodes removed and underwent radio iodine therapy because the cancer cells had already broken through the organ capsule. This was roughly 20 years ago and due to having the surgery I'm healthy today. Again, maybe just lucky or coincidence but ever since I do trust my instincts. Unschooling actually came for us out of trusting those instincts. It never felt "right" to send my son to school. In the beginning I was waiting for the day it would but it never came.

Sabine



Sent from myMail for iOS


Friday, May 12, 2017, 3:21 PM -0700 from Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]>:
 

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra

Ali Zeljo

I was born in 72, and I, too, was taught in elementary school that most animals have instincts that tell them what to eat and how to live but humans need to be taught. I was told that the more dependent and slow growing the babies were, the more they needed to learn from the mom. So some animals also were more like humans. I remember the discussion moving to animal languages. And the idea was that humans learn their language from parents but animals know it instinctively- like birds know their song instinctively. I also remember in college (where I studied biology) when I learned that some birds learn their songs as young birds, improving over time, and each bird's song is individual to the bird.

My first personal experience with instincts was as a young child feeling dizzy from being way up high and looking down. My dad told me some people inherit an instinctive fear of heights. I remember connecting that feeling with the feeling I would get in a piano recital. I wondered if I inherited an instinct to stay away from performing also (I did!!)

Then, as a mother, I experienced mothering instincts really intensely. I still have a strong instinctive response to any crying baby even though I no longer have a child that young. Thanks to La Leche League and Continuum Concept support groups, I didn't try to ignore those instincts. I nursed my babies and responded to every cry. I even learned that I could instinctively tell when they needed to pee/poo or nurse, preventing the need for cries. I remember feeling like this mothering was exactly my soul purpose. There was nothing I'd rather do. I felt completely fulfilled. I wonder if that's what it feels like to be an animal and to follow instincts. Do animals always feel fulfilled like that?

Ali

Shira Rocklin

I don't remember being taught anything about human instincts one way or the other. 

I do remember that my instinct told me to stay away from a religious leader in my community... and later turned out he was abusing his students.  

I do know that I feel something instinctual, or maybe visceral, since becoming a mother, when it comes to my kids, or any kids, needing help.  

And today I followed my instincts and had previous instincts confirmed, when I treated my son for anaphylaxis to a new food.  

What are instincts?  I think they are what we also call suspicion, and our culture in general denigrates anecdote, suspicions, gut feelings, etc... in favour of science and evidence.  I think science and evidence are great, and anecdotes and suspicion do lead people wrong, but so does science sometimes.  I'm glad I've learned to trust my gut most of the time... while trying to back up my gut reactions with science when there is time. 

Thanks,
Shira

Anna Black

I was born in 1972. I don’t remember learning much about instinct in humans or animals at school or university. In fact, the word instinct makes me think most strongly of Star Wars - Obi Wan Kenobi covering Luke’s eye’s and saying “Act..on..instinct’.

I think I notice instinct most strongly when I’m going against it or resisting it in some way. Although I’ve mostly thought of it as intuition. One time I reacted instinctively was when I had a bad feeling about a particular older child at a party, and made sure to observe her interactions with my daughter closely. I stepped in and separated them when I thought she was trying to isolate my daughter, who was a few years younger than her. I found out later there had been the beginning of some coerced sexual experimentation so I was very thankful I had paid attention to whatever was warning me and acted on that feeling.

Maybe intuition is an instinct? it’s certainly not something I learned. The only learned behaviour would be paying attention to it or not paying attention. And it’s difficult as often, at least for me, it’s mixed up with anxiety or worry. I am thinking right now of my most recent worry about my dog; I thought his muzzle and gums were unusually pink and started worrying about an unnoticed infection. I decided to leave him over night and see how he was in the morning before making a vet appointment. He was perfectly fine the next day. So was that instinct or intuition? Or was I just worrying unnecessarily?

There are things I have felt literally unable to do. Things like leave my babies to cry or take them to daycare. Is that instinct? It’s a very strong feeling. I felt I would be doing violence to myself if I went against that feeling.

I have no doubt that my babies instinctually assisted with the birth process. I remember feeling the kicks and wriggles as my second baby was born. And both crawled to the breast and self-attached just like baby kangaroos do. I think this is all instinctual, but in some cases the instinctual response is somewhat fragile and can be interrupted by, for example, the baby being removed and cleaned before being placed on the mother’s body, or any other separation. Newborns have reflexes, the rooting reflex, the stepping reflex. I suppose those are instinctual behaviours, they’re certainly not learned.

Are reflex and instinct the same? I have reached to grab both my children without thinking at different times when they’ve been falling or otherwise in danger. My husband always throws his arm out to ‘protect’ me if he’s driving and stops more suddenly than usual. It’s not a decision he makes in the moment, it’s a reflex or instinctual protective response to danger.

Anna

Belinda D

Well this post certainly got my husband and I talking ;-)

We were both born in the early 70’s and are both science graduates, and don’t remember specific instruction about human instinct.
However, I’m interested in what you mean by instinct - it seems a lot of posts here are talking about ‘gut feeling’ and ‘intuition’ and ‘instinct’ in the same way.

As a scientist I understand instinct to be behaviour/knowledge that is not learned - it’s innate. We are born knowing it or our hormones dictate it. Many of the scenarios described so far where people have acted instinctively have involved very complex assessments of cultural situations. We cannot know if this is instinctive or learned, can we? I have learned (can’t remember where, sorry) that the reason our brains are so big is that we spend enormous amounts of energy and brain power on reading complex social situations, faces etc. Way way more than any other species.

As a species we raise our young in communities and family groups. They would not survive without this intense care, which is instinctive, but which is then totally tied up with cultural learning too. Instinctive behaviour in some animals is easier to identify as their nurturing by their parents and communities is less or non-existent. Therefore we often think of ‘instinct’ as an animal quality.
It is of course impossible, morally, to do formal experiments where we raise humans without this element of cultural learning and social upbringing so true instinct is very hard to identify.

If a human behaviour is truly instinctive I would have imagined it would be apparent throughout all the different cultures - language, for example. Whereas a reluctance to put a child in daycare would seem to me to be a reaction to a specific cultural situation that the person assessed, thought about and decided it felt wrong for them - there are many human communities that raise their children communally.

Just another perspective to add to the data dump - sorry I have no references or quotes :-(


Belinda

Richard Howes

Hi All,

Instinct seems to be defined as what is ‘hard-wired’ into us at birth. Related is the nature versus nurture debate, what is learned and what is 'built-in’? My favourite story around that is my own two children, a boy and a girl born 16 months apart.

Connor was the first and we were fascinated when the nurses bundled him up like a burrito on the day he was born. Apparently newborns like being bundled up tightly because its what they are used to being squashed into a womb. It was quite funny to see how unwrapping him would start him crying instantly and wrapping him again would stop the crying. He is 13 now and still sleeps all bundled up with blankets tucked in tightly and barely moves all night.

Dakotah fought like crazy on day one to force one arm out of her swaddling blanket. She would keep fighting until she freed both arms and legs, then she would relax. We never bundled her up because she clearly disliked it. Today (she’s 12) she sleeps with arms and legs out of her blankets and rarely keeps them on all night even when it’s particularly cold. She’s a restless sleeper who thrashes around.

These two opposite behaviours started literally on day 1 and those personality traits have persisted to this day. There was zero nurture there - is was and still is part of their personalities. This incident, and many more over the years, have convinced me there is indeed some amount of hard-wiring in all of us. We may be less instinctual because we are born so much less developed than animals are, mainly because we need to be morn before our head and brain size makes birth impossible, but I’m convinced we have instincts.

Anecdotal and unscientific but interesting I think?

Cheers.
Richard


On 13 May 2017, at 9:50 AM, Joanne Gardner joannegardner76@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:


Hi, 

I was born in 76 and was taught nothing about instincts in school until our Catholic High school showed us a video. In  it one teenage girl seemed to follow her instincts and ended up working as a waitress with a baby -  portrayed in shades of brown. Another girl was 'sensible and clever'. She didn't listen to those pesky instincts  OR what the boys said. She ended up in bright colours on rollerskates. 

Other than that I remember being struck when a friend of mine who was a police officer told me she taught school groups that I'd an adult's presence made you 'feel funny' then you didn't have to be polite, but should just get away from them and tell someone you trust. It just stuck me as so different to what I'd always been taught, both implicitly and explicitly. 

Jo


On 12 May 2017 23:21, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I want input, please, about what you were taught about instincts (if anything) in school, or what you’ve read or discovered.

Also I want examples of things you have felt instinctively, and what the clues or indications were.

Babies crying— pick them up.
Food doesn’t smell like food—don’t eat it.
Can’t hold your head up—put your head down. :-)

When I was in school I was told more than once that animals have instincts—birds know how to make nests, bees know how to make honey—but humans have no instincts—humans can ONLY learn from books or other humans.

I was born in 1953.

Friends of mine born in the mid 1960’s have reported having been taught that, too—even at the university level, in the 1980s.

I’d like a data dump, and I would like to collect the good parts for a webpage. Me and my webpages…. you know.

Thanks for thinking about it.

Sandra



Alex & Brian Polikowsky

I agree with Belinda that many think of instinct in humans as some sort of "gut feeling".
I don't think it is.

Belinda's definition is more what I think instinct is.
I remember many discussions about this subject when I was in my teens. 

I don't remember what school thought but I remember thinking and talking about it.

I think instinct is , for example, when someone curls up in a feral position . That is the body on flight or fight ( hormones) and instinct of protecting your vital organs due do some kind of life threatening situation your mind perceives , instinctively wanting to protect life.

But maybe I am wrong?!


Alex & Brian Polikowsky

Fetal not feral ......

Sent from my iPhone

On May 15, 2017, at 6:48 AM, Alex & Brian Polikowsky polykowholsteins@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

I agree with Belinda that many think of instinct in humans as some sort of "gut feeling".
I don't think it is.

Belinda's definition is more what I think instinct is.
I remember many discussions about this subject when I was in my teens. 

I don't remember what school thought but I remember thinking and talking about it.

I think instinct is , for example, when someone curls up in a feral position . That is the body on flight or fight ( hormones) and instinct of protecting your vital organs due do some kind of life threatening situation your mind perceives , instinctively wanting to protect life.

But maybe I am wrong?!


sukaynalabboun@...

But, really, what is the difference between fight or flight and keeping a baby or child close=relaxed, or food smells and appetite, etc?
Is instinct only in dramatic cases?

Sandra Dodd

-=-Just another perspective to add to the data dump - sorry I have no references or quotes :-(-=-

No problem.
Part of my question is when there DOES seem to be an instinctive reaction, what are the symptoms? How does it feel? I don’t think it should feel like a whole bunch of words running through our minds.

I have a collection of descriptions of love—from song lyrics mostly—about feelings. If anyone here is interested in looking through and letting me know what I’m missing, that would be good. I should probably gather them onto a page on my site (the repository of all the idea-pack-rattery of my curious “what do you all think?” years of life).


LOVE: ROMANTIC BIOCHEMISTRY
LYRICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE BIOCHEMICAL CHANGES KNOWN AS "BEING IN LOVE," AND SIMILAR BUSINESS

http://biochemicallove.blogspot.com

The earlier posts are the better ones, I think.

“I feel it in my fingers, I feel it in my toes” —The Zombies (don’t know the lyricist)

"Love will make you strong
as a team of wild horses” —John Sebastian

Petula Clark:

My love is warmer than the warmest sunshine,
Softer than a sigh;
My love is deeper than the deepest ocean,
Wider than the sky.
My love is brighter than the brightest star
That shines every night above
And there is nothing in this world
That can ever change my love.

Something happened to my heart
The day that I met you
Something that I never felt before;
You are always on my mind
No matter what I do,
And every day it seems I want you more.

Describing human mating urges? :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Fetal not feral ……-=-

But as Freudian slips go (or typos by English-as-second-language writers), that’s a really good one!

Feral behavior is likely to be more instinctive. And when “feral behavior” includes behavior learned from the wolf or monkey foster family, that’s even more interesting.

This topic has been unpopular in our culture (and maybe in most or all) because of the human “need” (instinct??) to consider themselves something other than, and above and beyond, animals.

This is cultural too, but consider it as an analogy for a moment.
When I was young and impressionable (imprinting my culture) in the 1960’s and 70’s, and the women’s movement was vibrant and Ms. Magazine was new, we noted and discussed the natural and the exaggerated differenced between men and women. Strength. Hair on heads. Body hair. Clothing (rights, laws, traditions). Behaviors (how to sit or walk or stand).

Culturally, those things were exaggerated. Women DID shave armpits and legs, and quietly remove any odd facial hair, and tried to bleach arm hair if it was too dark.

For hippies, for guys to have long hair, and for women to let their armpit hair grow, and to go without a bra…. those things were SHOCKING to older people, but it was experimentation with what might be “normal” because life was so far from any idea of what “normal” might be for humans.

Just to allow hair to do what hair would do—be straight, or frizzy, or kinky, and to grow as long as it naturally could (which is different for different individuals, but at the time that was NOT known because no one had ever let hair just grow, men and women both, in natural ways)—that went against cultural traditions of fashions of putting hair up, cutting hair off, cutting it the length that worked well with the curlers of the day.

Those things skirt instinct, block it, mask it, hint at it.

Before Darwin, the idea that humans could have instinct was lumped in with sin and Satan, possession, demons. I want to start a different post about that.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Before Darwin, the idea that humans could have instinct was lumped in with sin and Satan, possession, demons. I want to start a different post about that.-=-

(Me, from another post.) If you’re in a hurry, skip to the bottom, and decide then whether to read the rest. It’s important, but it’s long.

For the past year or so I’ve been ideas about the danger of slogans have been percolating in me. It’s a bigger version of my list of phrases to avoid.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases

There are words and phrases that we can harboe in our super-ego (for another Freudian reference—is there another better newer word for that nowaday?)—our conscience, where the voices of parents or other relatives or teachers or bullies are stored up and play back at our subconcious mind live. Deschooling usually involves some inventory and rearrangement of those. Those are personal and internal. Some people did NOT store “Why can’t you be more like _____ [brother/cousin/neighbor]?” Others DID store one, and they’re still comparing themselves decades later.

But I’m talking about external noises that we can identify with or respond to as though they ere solid truth or pressing warnings of actual danger. Slogans. Quotes. Like “all things in moderation” which Leah Rose responded to so amazingly and I saved that here: http://sandradodd.com/moderation

But here’s my question (FINALLY!)

What phrases are used to keep us from considering our natural knowledge, or the possible legitimacy of our instincts?
Some of these might be inside some of us, too, but what is there that’s outside to squash thought or exploration of whether we might actually KNOW some things naturally?

I’ll start a list and I want to collect other similar phrases. If yours are from other than obvious Judeo-Christian sources, please give a clue to their cultural origin.

base instinct (“Don’t give in to your base instincts.”—not a quote from one person, but a thing older peole used to say as advice, about sex.)

Overcome your “urges"

Satan will tempt you

“What do YOU know?!” (the "stop thinking and go read a book by an expert" put-down)

"If it tastes bad it must be good for you.” (or “If it tasted good, it wouldn’t be good for you.”) That one was kind of a joke, but was about “medicines,” some of which are now shocking, though people who made kids take them are still around. Perigoric. Cod liver oil. Castor oil.

“Lean not to thine own understanding” (a Biblical put-down)
For anyone who did not grow up hearing that, good for you. If you’re curious, here:
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=lean+not+to+thine+own+understanding&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Women’s intuition was more often insulted than praised.
“Old wives’ tales” was a put-down of what women thought they knew from observation and experience. Sometimes “old wives tale” does describe something weird and wrong, but the phrase itself was used to pooh-pooh “unscientific” knowledge.

Women were (still are) insulted even for discussing things in the way women learn from one another—by sharing and comparing stories of biological and social matters. “Gossip”—not a nice word. “Don’t gossip” is extended to ANY discussion, about childbirth or what causes marriages to succeed or to fail.

One reason these ideas should be considered by unschoolers is that we are braving the “unscientific” world of raising our children separate from the (unnatural, but pervasive and accepted) school system. There IS no research we can provide for the whole radical unschooling package. Sometimes there’s a bit here or there, to defend one aspect or another. And I’m not saying we should submit our children for research, either.

What I’m suggesting is that for clarity and courage, it will help for unschoolers to be wary of slogans and of truisms, and continue to consider whether input is useful to our relationships with our children or spouses, or whether it is intended to control or shame or dissuade us from thinking our own careful thoughts, and making the best decisions we can make based on what we know, and feel.

Too many people let the sway of popular culture tell them what curlers to put in their chopped-off hair (in the 1950’) or what tattoos and piercings will make them cool, and while popular culture can be fun, and there are benefits of going along to get along (another slogan), be aware that you’re part of a trend or a fad. Don’t confuse culture with the real life beneath that changing gloss.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

By e-mail I received this. It’s quite poetic, overall, and I want to save it on my website.
I think it’s a shame for something this beautiful to be credited only to “anonymous,” but here it is.
____________________________

My 7 year old daughter was reading over my shoulder part of the time as I wrote, and it sparked some interesting discussion.

It got way too long, and I don't know if it fits anywhere, but you're welcome to use it, anonymously, please.
____________________________


It seems we have lost many of our instincts through lack of use or by overriding them for modern purposes.

When I was pregnant for the first time, I began to feel an intense drive to protect and provide for my baby, and that continued fiercely after he was born. At night, I could wake up whenever he stirred, let him nurse whenever his body language told me he needed to, and he slept peacefully and safely on my chest or snuggled beside me like a kitten with its mother cat.

When he cried, it tore at my heart, and I felt very strongly compelled to comfort him. It was a strong physical drive, a compulsion, a intense need of my own, to respond to my baby’s needs. This was hard when going somewhere as modern cars require babies to be buckled into carseats not mother’s arms, so we cocooned at home a lot.

And it was hard, at first, when relatives who felt entitled to hold the new baby swooped him out of my arms, and they ignored his cries when he wanted to come back to me. After only a few family visits, my innate shyness and lifetime eagerness to please my elders was superhumanly overridden by the primal drive to listen to my baby, and keep him calm and comfortable in my arms. I channelled my inner fierce mother cat, and was able to firmly and confidently say no, when others thought it was fine to let my baby to cry for me while loving elders held him for their own pleasure. My instincts told me the meanings behind the sounds of his cries, and my instincts drove me to listen and respond.

Society told me I was too attached, spoiling him, overprotective, possessive. Society told me I was too emotional, needed to get out more without the baby, should go back to work. Society told me women with graduate degrees shouldn’t waste their education. Society told me bottles, babysitters, pacifiers, cribs and electric monitors, were just as good --no---were *better* for the baby than having just mama. Society posted a billboard on the freeway near my town with a giant photo of a newborn on laying her back in a crib wearing a onesie with the words, “I (heart) my crib”, stating this was the only safe option for loving parents. I literally gagged. Society told me that holding my baby while he slept was ridiculous and dangerous, even though that’s the only way he would sleep for the first year. I learned to hold him in a carrier during the day, and I got very strong, and I cherished the moments which I instinctively knew would pass all too soon.

=====
To the emotional mother of an infant at the end of her six-week maternity leave, dropping her tiny baby off at daycare, society says, “I know it’s hard, but you’ll get use to it. We all had to do it too. It’s harder on us than it is the baby. Daycare is better for him. He’ll be fine.”

To the emotional mother of a tightly clinging, crying three year old, trying to drop off to near strangers at preschool, society says, “Let go, pry him off, don’t look back. He’s too attached. Getting away from you will be good for him. Drink wine. He’ll be fine.”

To the emotional mother of an eight year old school-refuser, with stomach aches, nightmares and depression due to fears of bullies, anxiety from academic pressure, and stress from being away from home and mama and happiness too many hours, days, weeks, months, years, society says, “Homeschooling would be a cop out. Make her face her fears. She needs to grow up. Don’t baby her. She’ll be fine. Maybe meds will help. She has to learn.”

She has to learn that society demands we ignore our instincts that tell us to get ourselves the hell out of dangerous, oppressive situations. She has to learn that society demands we ignore our strong desires to be with our mothers and fathers when we are babies and children. Eight year olds should be completely adjusted by now to being on their own at school every day.

She has to learn to ignore her instinct to seek out interesting things and leave the boring ones. She has to learn she can’t have everything she wants, she isn’t special, she doesn’t deserve anything unless she earns it with good behavior. She has to stop being so attached to her parents. She has to learn to do what is expected regardless of her feelings, regardless of how boring, monotonous, frustrating, limiting, difficult, stressful, hurtful, overwhelming, draining or scary. No one cares about her feelings. She has to follow the same rules as everyone else. She has to learn to get along with all kinds of people. She has to get up when the alarm rings, not sleep when she’s tired; Learn to wait till eating time, not eat when she’s hungry; Train herself to go only at bathroom time, not when she feels the urge; Sit still when she needs to move; Participate even when she has a bad cold and would rather be snuggled on the couch with her mom, but can’t because rules say you can’t miss school without a written excuse from the doctor; Study all the subjects required for her age, not just the ones she’s interested in; Go to the same class for seven hours every weekday for nine months, even though her teacher clearly dislikes her and treats her meanly and therefore several of her classmates do too; Ride the bus twice a day with older kids who’ve been doing all the above for many years and who attempt to ease some of their own frustrations by behaving as wildly inappropriately and rudely on the bus as they possibly can.

She has to learn to tolerate, fit in, don’t tattle, be a big girl, don’t be a baby, don’t complain, we all have to do things we don’t want to do. She has to get good grades by learning how to please the teacher and get correct answers on the tests. She has to do great in school so when she grows up she can be successful, Be Somebody, live up to her potential and contribute to society in a meaningful way by having a good career, making good money, paying taxes, buying a big house, cool car, stylish clothes, exciting vacations, sexy hairdos.

She has to learn to ignore her useless instincts so that when she becomes a mother she will know it’s best not to cave to her little child’s desires to be with her, even when she feels an inexplicable twinge of pain deep in her heart at the sound of his cries. She will know, despite her silly primitive instincts, in the modern world, babies’ and children’s needs are not nearly as important as Society’s.

Sandra Dodd

From the anonymous account of a typical lifetime…

-=-She has to learn to tolerate, fit in, don’t tattle, be a big girl, don’t be a baby, don’t complain, we all have to do things we don’t want to do. She has to get good grades by learning how to please the teacher and get correct answers on the tests. She has to do great in school so when she grows up she can be successful, Be Somebody-=-

This was me. And I still remember many of the correct answers.
At school, I was told that humans have no instincts.
At church, I was told to ignore my sinful urges.

Brain thinking was good. Book learning was good.
Any other learning, thought, perception, “belief,” feelings, were all wrong and bad.

My kids have “been somebody” all along. They could be themselves as they were (with a bit of “fit in” coaching around courtesies and etiquette and other people’s feelings), and they were NEVER told “don’t tattle.” I used to get a spanking for “tattling,” even if my cousin or sister got in trouble, too.

I did great in school. I hardly ever complained.

I was not encouraged to wonder whether I was actually hungry or tired. I ate when I could, and slept when someone made me.
I didn’t see those things in my kids, ever.

Things can be different, with unschooling. I’m looking at what the “things” are, other than the obvious, usual happy learning of reading and trivia (the trivia that becomes knowledge, when the volume is large enough).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Not “harboe.” That was a foreshadowing of “ego,” I guess.

I MEANT to write:

-=-There are words and phrases that we can harbor in our super-ego (for another Freudian reference—is there another better newer word for that nowaday?)-=-

Anyone who has studied psychology recently, has the term “super-ego” been improved upon, for that part of our minds that tells us what’s good or bad? It’s not as clear a thing as “conscience,” but it’s related to that.

Sandra

tandos mama

Some years ago, before my children were born, I spent a few months doing fieldwork that entailed several months of solo camping and backpacking. Within a week or so my body acclimated to the rising and setting of the sun, and shortly thereafter even the moon's phases had coaxed my modern body into its rhythm. Urges to keep in mind the location of water--even though I was packing bottled--and to make my bathroom away from it--were powerful sensations. Whatever science and society would have us believe we live in bodies that recall strong connections to our environment if we give ourselves the space and time to make those connections.

Another story--when my children were babies I would rock and nurse them--tandem because they were twins and we were used to being together. Even years of steady yoga and meditation practice never brought me as close to the notion of being present as those times in the rocking chair. At some point I would need to pee, but was reluctant to stir my sleeping babes. So I discovered that our minds have the potential to impact the functioning of our bodies; I could've stayed there forever except that my little ones always woke eventually. I had the feeling during that time, and it has stayed with me, that perhaps these lives we live are a sort of portage on a much longer journey that spans before our births and after our deaths.

I guess that what I'm rambling after is that there is knowledge is our bodies, in our actions, and in our minds as well. How we balance these and how we filter the myriad influences to hold only those the enrich our lives is the challenge.

Tori
mama to Tolinka and Obi


Sam

Wow that was so powerful and beautifully written. It articulated exactly how I've felt on my Motherhood journey, but wasn't able to articulate. I will save this forever as a written version of how it is.

'Society' in this post is also reflective of my family. They are so afraid of feeling their instincts, and have felt so threatened by me allowing myself to follow mine with my children.
 Sadly is it now, to some, so frowned upon and so fearful to follow our natural instincts it is seen as something very wrong.

I was a child in the 80's and instincts were not discussed at school whatsoever here in the UK.

Thank you to the anonymous poster for putting this down. 

Sam 

Sent from my iPhone

On 17 May 2017, at 15:36, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

By e-mail I received this. It’s quite poetic, overall, and I want to save it on my website.
I think it’s a shame for something this beautiful to be credited only to “anonymous,” but here it is.
____________________________

My 7 year old daughter was reading over my shoulder part of the time as I wrote, and it sparked some interesting discussion.

It got way too long, and I don't know if it fits anywhere, but you're welcome to use it, anonymously, please.
____________________________

It seems we have lost many of our instincts through lack of use or by overriding them for modern purposes.

When I was pregnant for the first time, I began to feel an intense drive to protect and provide for my baby, and that continued fiercely after he was born. At night, I could wake up whenever he stirred, let him nurse whenever his body language told me he needed to, and he slept peacefully and safely on my chest or snuggled beside me like a kitten with its mother cat.

When he cried, it tore at my heart, and I felt very strongly compelled to comfort him. It was a strong physical drive, a compulsion, a intense need of my own, to respond to my baby’s needs. This was hard when going somewhere as modern cars require babies to be buckled into carseats not mother’s arms, so we cocooned at home a lot.

And it was hard, at first, when relatives who felt entitled to hold the new baby swooped him out of my arms, and they ignored his cries when he wanted to come back to me. After only a few family visits, my innate shyness and lifetime eagerness to please my elders was superhumanly overridden by the primal drive to listen to my baby, and keep him calm and comfortable in my arms. I channelled my inner fierce mother cat, and was able to firmly and confidently say no, when others thought it was fine to let my baby to cry for me while loving elders held him for their own pleasure. My instincts told me the meanings behind the sounds of his cries, and my instincts drove me to listen and respond.

Society told me I was too attached, spoiling him, overprotective, possessive. Society told me I was too emotional, needed to get out more without the baby, should go back to work. Society told me women with graduate degrees shouldn’t waste their education. Society told me bottles, babysitters, pacifiers, cribs and electric monitors, were just as good --no---were *better* for the baby than having just mama. Society posted a billboard on the freeway near my town with a giant photo of a newborn on laying her back in a crib wearing a onesie with the words, “I (heart) my crib”, stating this was the only safe option for loving parents. I literally gagged. Society told me that holding my baby while he slept was ridiculous and dangerous, even though that’s the only way he would sleep for the first year. I learned to hold him in a carrier during the day, and I got very strong, and I cherished the moments which I instinctively knew would pass all too soon.

=====
To the emotional mother of an infant at the end of her six-week maternity leave, dropping her tiny baby off at daycare, society says, “I know it’s hard, but you’ll get use to it. We all had to do it too. It’s harder on us than it is the baby. Daycare is better for him. He’ll be fine.”

To the emotional mother of a tightly clinging, crying three year old, trying to drop off to near strangers at preschool, society says, “Let go, pry him off, don’t look back. He’s too attached. Getting away from you will be good for him. Drink wine. He’ll be fine.”

To the emotional mother of an eight year old school-refuser, with stomach aches, nightmares and depression due to fears of bullies, anxiety from academic pressure, and stress from being away from home and mama and happiness too many hours, days, weeks, months, years, society says, “Homeschooling would be a cop out. Make her face her fears. She needs to grow up. Don’t baby her. She’ll be fine. Maybe meds will help. She has to learn.”

She has to learn that society demands we ignore our instincts that tell us to get ourselves the hell out of dangerous, oppressive situations. She has to learn that society demands we ignore our strong desires to be with our mothers and fathers when we are babies and children. Eight year olds should be completely adjusted by now to being on their own at school every day.

She has to learn to ignore her instinct to seek out interesting things and leave the boring ones. She has to learn she can’t have everything she wants, she isn’t special, she doesn’t deserve anything unless she earns it with good behavior. She has to stop being so attached to her parents. She has to learn to do what is expected regardless of her feelings, regardless of how boring, monotonous, frustrating, limiting, difficult, stressful, hurtful, overwhelming, draining or scary. No one cares about her feelings. She has to follow the same rules as everyone else. She has to learn to get along with all kinds of people. She has to get up when the alarm rings, not sleep when she’s tired; Learn to wait till eating time, not eat when she’s hungry; Train herself to go only at bathroom time, not when she feels the urge; Sit still when she needs to move; Participate even when she has a bad cold and would rather be snuggled on the couch with her mom, but can’t because rules say you can’t miss school without a written excuse from the doctor; Study all the subjects required for her age, not just the ones she’s interested in; Go to the same class for seven hours every weekday for nine months, even though her teacher clearly dislikes her and treats her meanly and therefore several of her classmates do too; Ride the bus twice a day with older kids who’ve been doing all the above for many years and who attempt to ease some of their own frustrations by behaving as wildly inappropriately and rudely on the bus as they possibly can.

She has to learn to tolerate, fit in, don’t tattle, be a big girl, don’t be a baby, don’t complain, we all have to do things we don’t want to do. She has to get good grades by learning how to please the teacher and get correct answers on the tests. She has to do great in school so when she grows up she can be successful, Be Somebody, live up to her potential and contribute to society in a meaningful way by having a good career, making good money, paying taxes, buying a big house, cool car, stylish clothes, exciting vacations, sexy hairdos.

She has to learn to ignore her useless instincts so that when she becomes a mother she will know it’s best not to cave to her little child’s desires to be with her, even when she feels an inexplicable twinge of pain deep in her heart at the sound of his cries. She will know, despite her silly primitive instincts, in the modern world, babies’ and children’s needs are not nearly as important as Society’s.

Sandra Dodd

-=- Sadly is it now, to some, so frowned upon and so fearful to follow our natural instincts it is seen as something very wrong.-=-

It’s not a “now” thing—it’s part of culture and religion, I think, to get people to conform and live by rules. It’s not evil. It wouldn’t be good to throw ALL of that out to “follow instincts.”

Some people go too far with “I follow my instincts” the same way people can go too far with just about any excuse to do whatever they want to regardless of the needs or feelings of others.

I DO think there are more instincts than even experts like to acknowledge. Denying it altogether is wrong.
Jumping the social ship to live by instinct alone is just as wrong. Either humans are special (and not animals) and we’re meant to live by whatever traditions of government and religion “God has given us” (because lots of cultlures blame/credit God for their situations and traditions), or we’re primates, and primates also have a sort of government (hierarchy and behavioral expectations).

If one wants to get all philosophical (or more philosophical), it’s books and laws that allow people to depart from their own culture. “Freedom of religion” makes it legal for a child to choose a religion other than the one his parents grrew up in. Belief systems (political, economic, behavioral, dietary) give people justifications for “switching religions” there, too. Someone who wants to parent a different way than her mother did can wave a Dr. Sears or Penelope Leach book and say “This has research behind it,” and the parents aren’t likely to have read other more modern authors to refute it. Traditions involving “book-learning” make books more powerful than they should be. :-)

It’s complicated. It’s confusing. It’s hard to prove, and probably not worth trying to prove.
It IS worth thinking about sometimes, though.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Looking for something (as usual) I found something unexpected (which I should really come to expect):

https://www.facebook.com/SandraDoddABQ/posts/10152313308721374

I have long said that people lose the use of an aspect of their instincts when body odors are changed or covered up. I suppose this is "a body odor," but not the one I was thinking of. :-)

Moms can learn that smelling their babies' scalps releases calming biochemicals. It's nice to smell victory/success/pride on a man. There are probably dozens of other things we might could use. But we wash it off and put store-bought smells there instead. (Probably to maintain marriages—a cultural decision from long ago?)

But this might make you feel better when your spouse lets rip in the bed and you can't easily get away. Health and long life!

The title of the article to which I was linking was changed, and a sort of disclaimer/retraction follows the current version, but you can tell by the URL here what the original title was.:-)

http://time.com/2976464/scientists-say-smelling-farts-might-prevent-cancer/

The comments there (on facebook, in 2014) are pretty fun.

But for the more serious note, I think deodorant soaps, shaving armpits, and anti-perspirants are deterrants to instinctual communications that can disturb peace and order among civilized primates. :-)    “Dogs can smell fear,” they say.  I don’t know if dogs can smell fear through deodorants, but without deodorants, some people can smell fear, too.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

marryannh’s previously more anonymous writing is up now with her name and a correction and some new-improved dashes. So IF you saved it, please save this one instead:

http://sandradodd.com/instinct

There was already a request from a midwife in England to use it, which will help some moms for sure.

Share it as you wish, but please put “maryannh” on it, and maybe the date and the name of this group or that instinct webpage, because it’s writing worth stealing. (Darn word thieves.)

Sandra

[email protected]

A wonderful book that I love and am almost finished is, Original Wisdom - Stories of an Ancient Way of Knowing, by Robert Wolff.  He is a psychologist who has spent his life living with indigenous people from many parts of the world, including at least two aboriginal tribes.  These 'primitive' people are so connected to their instinct and intuition in such a beautiful way.  I highly recommend this book.
Molly



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Sandra Dodd

Anonymous wrote:

Something else that goes with instincts related to parents/newborns and eating..... One thing I found surprising and upsetting when each of my children were babies: Sometimes I would go out by myself to the grocery store for a bit while the baby stayed with daddy. On several different grocery trips, I would be shopping, and a random baby in the store would start crying and keep crying and crying, usually left in the carseat perched on the cart. The parent might jiggle it or shush a bit, but not pick up the baby, or maybe just completely ignore and keep shopping. This could be in the next aisle or two over. It was so sad!! I couldn't stand it! Neither could my body! My milk would let down and leak out just at the sound of it. I haven't had nurslings for years, but still can't stand to be around while people don't pick up their crying babies. Now it's just my heart and my adrenaline that reacts, not my breastmilk.

Back to Sandra:

My sister, Irene, was working in a grocery store when she was nursing her second child. She sid when someone entered with an infant she 1) hoped the baby wouldn’t cry, and 2) hoped they would go through another line. Just even being near a baby could make her milk let down, and it would be tight, and hurt, or leak, or flow.

That’s biology. Is it instinct? It bypasses decision making.

Somewhere, biology and instinct must overlap. Like fear of snakes, or of heights.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

For people who are’t on facebook (there are still some, I know), I’ve moved the thing about smelling farts, which turned to a discussion of baby poo smelling like food to a mother sometimes, here:

http://sandradodd.com/smells


“Aromatherapy” is fairly recent, I think, but it’s not about natural bodily odors (as far as I know).

Smelling a child’s scalp can be therapeutic.

Sandra