dyslexia and unschooling
Cherie Gela
Hello. My boys are dyslexic( I got them evaluated) I heard early intervention is key- so I pay for an orton gillingham tutor once a week for 45 minutes each. And that is all. They are 8 years old and have no interest in learning how to read. They ask me what things say (on a video game etc and if I try to have them sound it out, they get frustrated, so I just tell them what it says. I read to the boys often so they have a decent vocabulary. Am I doing enough? I worry that I should do more. But they don't like seat work… I don't want to battle with them. I just want a healthy, happy relationship.
Cherie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Hello. My boys are dyslexic( I got them evaluated) I heard early intervention is key- so I pay for an orton gillingham tutor once a week for 45 minutes each. And that is all. -=-
That’s enough to ruin unschooling.
You WILL hear “early intervention is key,” because there are people with jobs to protect, and schools competing against other schools for higher average scores.
It is only “key” to those people, for those reasons, and to attempt (often without success) to keep a child “at grade level.”
In the absence of all of those factors above, it can only do damage and zero good.
I would drop the label and never mention it again. Tell them “don’t worry about it” if they bring it up.
http://sandradodd.com/labels
Read that. Read things that link from it. Don’t rush back here to tell us anything about it. Just read a little, think about it for a week or so.
-=-They are 8 years old and have no interest in learning how to read.-=-
That’s no problem at all.
When you’re through thinking about labels, read here.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
And here are some stats Jo Isaac collected:
http://sandradodd.com/readingage.html
An interest in learning to read isn’t what causes reading to work.
Pressing it can (and does) cause reading NOT to work. Schools create non-readers. Unschooling doesn’t, if it’s done well and not just thrown on over previous damage.
-=-They ask me what things say (on a video game etc and if I try to have them sound it out, they get frustrated,-=-
You would, too. If were cooking and you asked what was half of a cup and a half, would you rather I’d say 3/4 or that I condescendingly talk you through the steps it takes to figure that out? If you asked me how far it was from here to Santa Fe, would you rather I just told you, or reminded you that it was something you could google?
-=- so I just tell them what it says.-=-
Good. But instead of “just telling them” maybe tell them. “I tell them what it says.”
I gladly tell them what it says.
I generously and happily tell them what it says.
-=-I read to the boys often so they have a decent vocabulary.-=-
Please don’t give yourself all the credit for their vocabulary. They’ll pick up words from movies, videos, video games, conversations, song lyrics, jokes, eating in restaurants, going to stores. If they want you to read to them, great! If your reading to them is a vocabulary lesson, or something related to their learning to read, maybe back off. If your motives are tainted, the experience might be less joyful than you want it to be. They can read your subtlest physical, visceral communications—things moms think they’re hiding, perceptive kids know.
-=-Am I doing enough?-=-
Too much.
-=-I worry that I should do more.-=-
Do more deschooling. That’s what you should do more of, while you leave them alone to recover from too much teaching.
-=-But they don't like seat work…-=-
Why would you even use that term in an unschooling discussion? “Seat work” is the schooliest of school terms.
Undo, dismantle, scatter the school in your head if you want to unschool.
-=-I don't want to battle with them. I just want a healthy, happy relationship.-=-
You thought the word “battle.”
You wrote it down.
You sent it to a large group of people.
The battle is all in your head. Perhaps they’re trying to defend themselves, but I don’t think you should battle anymore.
http://sandradodd.com/battle
We can help you if you want help.
Please take a week or so to read through those links—not speed reading, not school-style.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
Repeat.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle
Sandra
That’s enough to ruin unschooling.
You WILL hear “early intervention is key,” because there are people with jobs to protect, and schools competing against other schools for higher average scores.
It is only “key” to those people, for those reasons, and to attempt (often without success) to keep a child “at grade level.”
In the absence of all of those factors above, it can only do damage and zero good.
I would drop the label and never mention it again. Tell them “don’t worry about it” if they bring it up.
http://sandradodd.com/labels
Read that. Read things that link from it. Don’t rush back here to tell us anything about it. Just read a little, think about it for a week or so.
-=-They are 8 years old and have no interest in learning how to read.-=-
That’s no problem at all.
When you’re through thinking about labels, read here.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
And here are some stats Jo Isaac collected:
http://sandradodd.com/readingage.html
An interest in learning to read isn’t what causes reading to work.
Pressing it can (and does) cause reading NOT to work. Schools create non-readers. Unschooling doesn’t, if it’s done well and not just thrown on over previous damage.
-=-They ask me what things say (on a video game etc and if I try to have them sound it out, they get frustrated,-=-
You would, too. If were cooking and you asked what was half of a cup and a half, would you rather I’d say 3/4 or that I condescendingly talk you through the steps it takes to figure that out? If you asked me how far it was from here to Santa Fe, would you rather I just told you, or reminded you that it was something you could google?
-=- so I just tell them what it says.-=-
Good. But instead of “just telling them” maybe tell them. “I tell them what it says.”
I gladly tell them what it says.
I generously and happily tell them what it says.
-=-I read to the boys often so they have a decent vocabulary.-=-
Please don’t give yourself all the credit for their vocabulary. They’ll pick up words from movies, videos, video games, conversations, song lyrics, jokes, eating in restaurants, going to stores. If they want you to read to them, great! If your reading to them is a vocabulary lesson, or something related to their learning to read, maybe back off. If your motives are tainted, the experience might be less joyful than you want it to be. They can read your subtlest physical, visceral communications—things moms think they’re hiding, perceptive kids know.
-=-Am I doing enough?-=-
Too much.
-=-I worry that I should do more.-=-
Do more deschooling. That’s what you should do more of, while you leave them alone to recover from too much teaching.
-=-But they don't like seat work…-=-
Why would you even use that term in an unschooling discussion? “Seat work” is the schooliest of school terms.
Undo, dismantle, scatter the school in your head if you want to unschool.
-=-I don't want to battle with them. I just want a healthy, happy relationship.-=-
You thought the word “battle.”
You wrote it down.
You sent it to a large group of people.
The battle is all in your head. Perhaps they’re trying to defend themselves, but I don’t think you should battle anymore.
http://sandradodd.com/battle
We can help you if you want help.
Please take a week or so to read through those links—not speed reading, not school-style.
Read a little.
Try a little.
Wait a while.
Watch.
Repeat.
http://sandradodd.com/readalittle
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
From the mom of a seven-year-old boy who would rather have her name taken off to avoid pressure from relatives.
It was written for Radical Unschooling Info on facebook, but it seemed perfect for the new reading question here, so she said I could put it both places.
___________________
Chase is learning to read. He's seven. It has been a slow process of recognizing words from a young age. He is an avid gamer and really likes to know what's going on in his games. I spent a lot of time reading the prompts and plot when he asked. I was calm enough to see he was interested in reading and also believed that he would read when his mind was ready. So I stay in the lane where his interests lie. We game.
More and more frequently, I'll hear him reading things from his games, much like kindergarten kids read. It's broken and slow, with long pauses when he gets to words he needs to figure out. It's so freaking cool!
Every time I hear him read, I remember how I dreaded my turn to read aloud in school. That forced reading created a deep rooted anxiety that is still with me. I often need to give myself a silent pep talk and breathe a little before I read aloud. Hearing Chase read without any anxiety or worry or thought as to whether he was "doing it right" is so very healing. He may or may not want to read aloud ever in his life, that's not really the point. But he won't have any baggage when it comes to reading, and that's awesome.
_____________
It was written for Radical Unschooling Info on facebook, but it seemed perfect for the new reading question here, so she said I could put it both places.
___________________
Chase is learning to read. He's seven. It has been a slow process of recognizing words from a young age. He is an avid gamer and really likes to know what's going on in his games. I spent a lot of time reading the prompts and plot when he asked. I was calm enough to see he was interested in reading and also believed that he would read when his mind was ready. So I stay in the lane where his interests lie. We game.
More and more frequently, I'll hear him reading things from his games, much like kindergarten kids read. It's broken and slow, with long pauses when he gets to words he needs to figure out. It's so freaking cool!
Every time I hear him read, I remember how I dreaded my turn to read aloud in school. That forced reading created a deep rooted anxiety that is still with me. I often need to give myself a silent pep talk and breathe a little before I read aloud. Hearing Chase read without any anxiety or worry or thought as to whether he was "doing it right" is so very healing. He may or may not want to read aloud ever in his life, that's not really the point. But he won't have any baggage when it comes to reading, and that's awesome.
_____________
Sarah Thompson
When my kids ask me a question about a word or a math problem, I respond to them as I would to anyone. It feels patronizing to insist on sounding it out or working it out (unless my younger, who is actively figuring out reading and math and is excited to do it himself, wants space and support to puzzle through it-he lets me know). I answer them because they ask. But I also observe that, when they ask and I answer, they ARE learning. That's how we learn. We mimic, observe patterns, ask questions; that's learning. At the store, he says, "There's the Tide!" because he's seen an ad. That's learning. He presses "play" because he's heard "press play" and seen the word. Why would he sound it out? He knows the word because he recognizes it, because he's seen it and heard it in the natural flow of our lives.
Sarah
Sandra Dodd
I asked Cherie, who originated the question, for a bit more info. She wrote:
______________
My twins only went to 2 hour pre -k which was all play. They are now considered 2nd grade. They like to do gymnastics, draw, play piano and science. (and video games of course!)
I never bought a curriculum- I never home schooled them bc it wouldn't have worked. We go to museums and programs all the time.
____________________
Even without a curriculum and homeschooling, it doesn’t sound from this like you’ve moved toward unschooling as it’s discussed here (and on my site, Joyce Fetteroll’s, and a few others).
With this as a stated goal, I want to comment on that list:
-=-I don't want to battle with them. I just want a healthy, happy relationship.-=-
First, think about the terminology you’re using. "They are now considered 2nd grade” by whom? Why?
If the gym class asked, or if you need to register with the state and say what year, that’s one thing (and should be a minor thing). If you’re thinking of them as second graders, though, it would help if you would stop. Use their names and their ages instead of what grade they would be in if they were in school. Otherwise you’re carrying school and schoolishness around like a phantom turtle shell.
-=-I never home schooled them bc it wouldn't have worked.-=-
But by your own description, this isn’t working so well, either. You feel you’re battling them. You’ve hired expert intervention. You want a healthier relationship.
So remove the unhealthy parts.
-=-We go to museums and programs all the time.-=-
If the “programs” are anything schoolish, maybe let that go for a while, until you (the parents) really are solidly in the confident flow of unschooling.
________
From the page “do it”:
__________
Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling can't begin to work.
It seems simple to me. If you're trying to listen for a sound, you have to stop talking and be still.
Some people want to see unschooling while they're still teaching and putzing and assigning and requiring.
They have to stop that FIRST. And then they have to be still. And then they have to look at their child with new eyes.
If they don't, it won't happen.
___________
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
______________
My twins only went to 2 hour pre -k which was all play. They are now considered 2nd grade. They like to do gymnastics, draw, play piano and science. (and video games of course!)
I never bought a curriculum- I never home schooled them bc it wouldn't have worked. We go to museums and programs all the time.
____________________
Even without a curriculum and homeschooling, it doesn’t sound from this like you’ve moved toward unschooling as it’s discussed here (and on my site, Joyce Fetteroll’s, and a few others).
With this as a stated goal, I want to comment on that list:
-=-I don't want to battle with them. I just want a healthy, happy relationship.-=-
First, think about the terminology you’re using. "They are now considered 2nd grade” by whom? Why?
If the gym class asked, or if you need to register with the state and say what year, that’s one thing (and should be a minor thing). If you’re thinking of them as second graders, though, it would help if you would stop. Use their names and their ages instead of what grade they would be in if they were in school. Otherwise you’re carrying school and schoolishness around like a phantom turtle shell.
-=-I never home schooled them bc it wouldn't have worked.-=-
But by your own description, this isn’t working so well, either. You feel you’re battling them. You’ve hired expert intervention. You want a healthier relationship.
So remove the unhealthy parts.
-=-We go to museums and programs all the time.-=-
If the “programs” are anything schoolish, maybe let that go for a while, until you (the parents) really are solidly in the confident flow of unschooling.
________
From the page “do it”:
__________
Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling can't begin to work.
It seems simple to me. If you're trying to listen for a sound, you have to stop talking and be still.
Some people want to see unschooling while they're still teaching and putzing and assigning and requiring.
They have to stop that FIRST. And then they have to be still. And then they have to look at their child with new eyes.
If they don't, it won't happen.
___________
http://sandradodd.com/doit
Sandra
sukaynalabboun@...
> When my kids ask me a question about a word or a math problem, I respond toWhen my oldest was about 3 1/2, she began to stop me during stories and ask about the letters and words on the pages. I would answer simply, and in direct response to her questions ( those are letters, oh letters put together tell us what sounds to make, etc). Over time, her fragmented knowledge about words, letters, and sounds led her to sounding out or asking about combinations (sh for example). These might be while I was nursing her sister, walking to the park, driving- it was really spontaneous and random.
> them as I would to anyone. It feels patronizing to insist on sounding it
> out or working it out (unless my younger, who is actively figuring out
> reading and math and is excited to do it himself, wants space and support
> to puzzle through
We also had plenty of paper, paint, chalk and chalkboard,markers, magnets on the fridge etc laying around. She asked to go the library at least once a week for books, movies and computer games. We read to her LOTS. She started writing letters, trying to copy or spell and by four was able to start sounding new words or at least memorised many. She began to want to write. She also had a new computer with games and internet in her room at that age (2001 ish).
I realise this is not everyone's experience (my other two got there the same way, slightly later, but were more into math questions; multiplication and division type stuff, first) I wanted to say that for some kids, in a stimulating and responsive environment, with plenty of time for conversations and new experiences, sounding out or phoenetic reading might be fine. Audiotapes might be fine. My kids aren't loaded with baggage about math or reading and they learned quite a bit about both before we eventually sent them to school.
I don't think it was patronising to answer their questions thoughtfully, or to provide them with many different types of storytelling,maths,arts etc. I have always thought giving part of the answer and letting them work on it was better, for them to own their learning- unless they wanted the whole thing explained by me and said so. I gave the info they asked for, didn't solve it for them.
As teens, they all love to read and spend time on ipad, laptops. They still ask to buy books on amazon every single week. They don't seem to carry anything but love for reading as a way to entertain or learn or escape.
Sandra Dodd
A question from the mom of the boys: " So is dyslexia not real- should I not worry?”
“Real” is an interesting concept here. :-)
It is a set of likelihoods or observed patterns, and has been given a name, so there’s a reality to it.
Is it something that can keep a child from leaning to read a “early” as some other kids? Yes! That’s part of the observed patterns. Instead of saying “that’s normal” about the kids who read later than average, teachers are eager to grasp for reasons it’s not their fault. Someone, something else’s fault.
-=-should I not worry?”-=-
How would worrying help?
Every reader learns to read in his or her own way.
Some people are pressured and bothered and become traumatized so that they never, ever learn to read. They reject books. They don’t want to write. They “hate school.” They are mean to people who love libraries and books (and some of those people can be horribly mean to the non-readers).
But NONE of that, not even part of that, needs to have anything to do with unschoolers.
Unschoolers don’t need to have anything to do with any of that.
School can do damage. And parents at home can cause some of the same kind of damage.
Unschooling well can help avoid damaging natural learning.
Unschooling can do lots of other wonderful things for a family, too, but first look at learning.
Sandra
“Real” is an interesting concept here. :-)
It is a set of likelihoods or observed patterns, and has been given a name, so there’s a reality to it.
Is it something that can keep a child from leaning to read a “early” as some other kids? Yes! That’s part of the observed patterns. Instead of saying “that’s normal” about the kids who read later than average, teachers are eager to grasp for reasons it’s not their fault. Someone, something else’s fault.
-=-should I not worry?”-=-
How would worrying help?
Every reader learns to read in his or her own way.
Some people are pressured and bothered and become traumatized so that they never, ever learn to read. They reject books. They don’t want to write. They “hate school.” They are mean to people who love libraries and books (and some of those people can be horribly mean to the non-readers).
But NONE of that, not even part of that, needs to have anything to do with unschoolers.
Unschoolers don’t need to have anything to do with any of that.
School can do damage. And parents at home can cause some of the same kind of damage.
Unschooling well can help avoid damaging natural learning.
Unschooling can do lots of other wonderful things for a family, too, but first look at learning.
Sandra