Sandra Dodd

I’ve added the intro paragraph because i think it is the most powerful:
____________

I have been writing and rewriting this post for months and things are getting more severe while I wait. I think it would be best to get the situation out there and see where my thinking is off so I am sending it to you and asking for an anonymous posting out of sensitivity to my husband.
____________


My question is about building those strong and trusting relationships that can develop as a part of unschooling and whether there is a point where that is no longer possible.

My family started our unschooling journey about 4 years ago, when our daughter was 4. The interest and decision to do so came pretty easily to both myself and my husband. Since then, I have taken the time/had the opportunity to learn about unschooling and continue to consciously deschool. My husband, while in agreement with our choice, has been less proactive in examining his attitudes and approaches. Not an uncommon situation, as I understand it.

Eight months ago, my husband and I moved our family (three of us, my daughter is 8). We wanted to shorten his 4 hour daily commute to improve his well-being so that he could participate more fully in our family life. He has had a hard time connecting with our daughter and she has said since she could talk that “Daddy doesn’t get me.” I thought that if he could be better rested and have more actual hours to spend with her that it might make a world of difference in everyone’s relationships. Unfortunately the opposite has happened.
Our family life since the move has become even more painful and fractured.

My daughter is grieving deeply the loss of her home. She is so angry at her dad that she does not want to be in the same room with him. She has begun to say that every time she sees him, she dies a little inside and that “either he goes or I do.” She started pulling out her eyebrows and eyelashes from the stress of it all.

My daughter’s days look similar to what we did at our old home with video games, cooking, art projects and playing with cats. She and I have a very sweet and wonderful relationship, with pretty normal bumps and learning on both our parts. She attends karate, improv and dance classes that she really enjoys and has begun to connect to a new friend here. But, when my husband comes home, she runs into the bedroom and refuses to come out. She does not want to see him or talk to him. She is a highly sensitive person and I think she has become the “canary in a coal mine” for our family dynamics, soaking up and expressing not only her anger and loss but the difficult feelings my husband and I are having around his relationship with her. I know that I resent that he can’t figure out how to be a dad she likes being around. Unfortunately, conversations between he and I are not productive. I have been trying to balance things, going back and forth (literally!) between them but I don’t see that helping and I am feeling exhausted by it.

My daughter and I went to see a family systems counselor twice but she does not want to see her again. Probably because she kept telling her that her dad was her dad forever. I went to see the counselor on my own but her talk about “consequences” for my daughter raised a red flag for me. As in, if she won’t come out and go to the Christmas tree farm with both me and her dad then there is no Christmas tree. Seems like punishing the child for the parent’s inability to connect in a meaningful way. My husband has also gone to see the counselor separately and is reading some materials recommended by her. At this point, I hang out with her in one room, while my husband is in another or I take her out to various activities while my husband does something else. So that is where we are at the moment.

My husband and I have participated in marriage counseling two different times before and really gotten no improvement in our relationship from it. Applying unschooling principles in my marriage has brought me some relief. I felt that even if our marriage was not great, I wanted my husband and daughter to have a chance to make a good relationship. Now my daughter says she has given her dad lots of chances and she just wants him to go away.

I have talked with her about my husband’s positive contributions to our family, about how he loves her so much that he goes to work every day so that we can be together . I tell stories of how we came to unschooling and how he realized he wanted her to have a choice about school and that we thought she would learn more happily in a non-school way so we decided for me to be an at home mom. I am trying to soften the situation without saying she should feel differently than she does. He rubs here the wrong way and pretty much always has.

I have sought to include my husband in our daily lives through phone calls, sending texts and photos and taking time to catch him up on our daughter's current interests. I have made time for them to spend together only to find my daughter alone in the bedroom while my husband is asleep on the couch.

I really want to have a loving and intact family but have started to question whether keeping the family together is the way to go when we are unable to be in the same room together. I know that I cannot control anyone’s behavior but my own. I practice gratitude and appreciation daily but, in truth, I don’t much like our family life. It has the “don’t talk, don’t trust, don’t feel” dynamic of my family of origin. I have done a lot of self-examination, changing and growing in recovery programs for adult children of alcoholics, mindfulness programs and plain old therapy. I am willing to support family change but not by taking actions that would cause my daughter to feel any more off balance and stressed than she already is. I can see that this emotional stew is damaging. I am also aware that the consequences of separating, especially the likelihood that she would need to attend school so that I could work, could be equally harmful. We could move back to our old home (we still own it) but that puts my husband right back into the awful commute and I’m not sure he’d be willing to do that anyway. And it doesn't solve the underlying relationship problems.

I would appreciate any insight or suggestions for helping my family.
______________

K Pennell

This struck me:
"At this point, I hang out with her in one room, while my husband is in another..."

It sounds rather sad for your husband. Your daughter chooses to leave the room when he is there. It doesn't mean you have to. Perhaps you could bring your daughter a monkey platter, invite her to join you, then go show her that it's fun spending time with your husband, her father. You and he can chat, play cards or a game, watch a show.

Perhaps you and your husband can bring her to karate or dance class, and watch her there (or even go for a coffee together).

It is hard to know from the post, but it sounds as if your daughter is being pretty unkind to her Dad. This is the man who pays for those dance classes, karate, etc...Her life would be a lot less pleasant without him. I'm not advocating "consequences" but perhaps you could do more, in front of your husband, to encourage her not to be rude to him.

I wish I'd done more of that when my kids were young. 





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Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
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semajrak@...

***I know that I resent that he can’t figure out how to be a dad she likes being around.***

***She has begun to say that every time she sees him, she dies a little inside and that “either he goes or I do.”***

My son didn't talk until he was two.  Within weeks he was speaking in full sentences. His first sentence was, "Now where's my wallet?!"  We were standing at the front door ready to go outside on some fun exploration.  Just as we were about to step out the door, Ethan put his arms up in the air and made this exclamation. Then he paced back and forth exactly like I had done many, many times on my way out the door.  "Where's my wallet" and "Where are my keys" were (and still are) very common phrases for me.  His words and actions were exactly mimicking me.  I laughed.  He looked up at me and smiled.  I've always thought that was his first joke.  

Besides being funny, I learned that day that my son is paying very close attention not only to my words, but to my mannerisms as well.  That didn't stop when he started talking.  I still see some of my ways expressed through him now, at age fourteen.  Because of that, I try to be very mindful of my words and ways especially around him.    

Pay attention to how you present your resentment toward your husband, especially around your daughter.  Notice your tension.  Try to soften.  Listen to what you are saying aloud.  Try to be more generous.  Notice what you are not saying and how you are not saying it.  Learn to see him without that resentment.  Your daughter might be just as influenced by your own reaction as she is by his non-action.  That is something you can remedy with practice.  He may never be able to give his daughter the kind of relationship you want to see, but resenting him for his shortcomings will not help build a better relationship between him and your daughter.  It will only put a strain on whatever relationship they could learn to cultivate together.  

My husband works a lot of hours, and when he gets home he often needs time to himself.  I joyfully fill in when he's not available, and have done so for nearly a decade and a half.  Although Ethan might be disappointed from time to time that his dad isn't available, he doesn't have my resentment to carry on top of his own feelings.  Consequently, he's lighter and can move on a lot easier.  

Focus on your daughter's happiness.  Include your husband whenever he's available.  Enjoy the time you have together while it's here.  It passes fast.

Karen James 

Kelly Callahan


When we were learning about unschooling and I was giving my husband information and trying to help him, I often found myself frustrated that he wasn't getting it sooner, wasn't doing it right or the way I was reading about how it 'should' be done, or what would make unschooling go easier, faster. When I pointed this out, he felt criticized and like he could do nothing right. This did not help him learn more about unschooling, and would more often than not he would withdraw. Adults, like kids, do not respond well to criticism and expectation laced with resentment. 

***I know that I resent that he can’t figure out how to be a dad she likes being around.***



I am sure he feels this... not only is he getting it from you, he's getting it from your daughter loud and clear that he is not doing anything right. You didn't give any specifics about what he's doing or not doing that is helping or not helping. 

What does it look like to 'not get her'? 

Is it like when a new mom is hovering over the dad- criticizing how he diapers, holds, plays, and rocks the baby? 
Or is it his tone of voice, edgy energy, controlling language, or worse? Does he belittle her interests and choices? 
You have left these details out, but they feel important. It's hard for us to understand the gravity of the situation without a better understanding. There's a huge spectrum here, from kind of aloof and unsure, so therefore not present, to what could be considered as abusive and unsafe. 

You said you both came to unschooling easily, but he hasn't looked at his attitude and approaches enough. One suggestion I have heard repeated in this list and on various boards is to go to an unschooling conference together, if you all could agree to go. Your family could share in an experience while literally being in different rooms! :) Your husband could see other experienced unschooling dads, talk with them. Maybe it would help you all seeing families interacting with each other, take the focus off just your family. 

My other thought was about my kids, and their sibling relationship. While definitely different than a father/daughter, it has not been an easy one. They do not 'get' each other. They talk to each other in tones of voice that neither of them use with me and their dad, or friends, or anyone else. They linger in the same room together as little as possible. This was very stressful for me for a very long time. I tried hard to fix it. I tried to run peace talks and talk to each of them separately. I gave them each the opportunity to 'vent' about the other. It hasn't done much. Time has helped. Me letting go of whatever pie-in-the-sky vision I had about a storybook sibling relationship has helped. Accepting that they need to live together and be civil, but not be friends or have some deep bond has helped. And when I say 'helped' i mean it has helped me to not be stressed and on edge and sad and pass those feelings on to my kids or make them feel bad for making me feel bad because of *their* relationship. And a bit as they have gotten older, there are some moments of real connection, but they are short and not mushy- just life.

It may be that your husband and daughter will not have some close fairytale daughter/dad relationship. They wouldn't be the first.  It could still be peaceful. She could still unschool. Accepting whatever relationship they *can* have, rather than trying to force what you want or think it *should* be is the first step in releasing the stress of expectation. If you have already been to counseling and it's 'family systems' counseling then your daughter is definitely getting the message loud and clear that there is a Problem. It will take time for that impression to soften, and only if it isn't reinforced. 

Families are so different. We are bombarded with Hallmark images and ideas about the 'perfect' families and relationships. I am working on accepting how mine does not look like that. I have wanted so badly for us all to have those happy family outings, all doing the same thing.... so rare! Our family is an interlocking set of dyads. My husband and I each have great relationships with the kids individually, but 'doing something' all together might be getting an ice cream and that's it- the rest of the weekend is individual, or in 2s or maybe 3s. I see all these posts on Facebook- even of unschooling families who talk about how their relationships are so amazing and strong- and I have to LOOK at my own family and see what is beautiful and unique and amazing about it and not compare. If i compare, I doubt. But when I am hanging out with my kids or my husband- there's no doubt. And we are often not in the same room together. 


Sandra Dodd

-=-You didn't give any specifics about what he's doing or not doing that is helping or not helping. -=-

That’s okay. We don’t need specifics to discuss this in ways that it could help lots of readers.

Sandra Dodd

Sent anonymously from someone with ideas from her own life:
____________________


I rarely post, but this situation sounds familiar to me. My dad has told me many times over the years that when I was first born and he was holding me for the first time, looking at me with wonder, I looked back at him with a look that clearly said, "You don't know what in the hell you are doing." He would laugh, but this sort of describes our relationship and my feelings toward him for at least the first 10 years.

It was different for me than for your daughter, as I am the oldest of four, and some of the other kids in my family always adored our dad. I went a lot of years thinking he could do better, and annoyed that he didn't, and arguing with him (pushing limits I would never with my mom). I didn't really respect his authority, because he didn't know what was going on, what to say, how to do things (like mom did them). Also he was not very interesting to me, or interested in me, I felt. He would get mad and give up too easily. He only spent time with me when he had to, when mom was working and grandparents were not available, and even then it was routine and minimal and boring or tense.

Later it got better. I started learning to play an instrument, taking lessons from a nice old man who adored me. A couple years later, the old man wanted my dad to learn to play an accompanying instrument. (He had taken piano lessons as a child, so had background knowledge.) I think participating in this shared activity provided opportunities for positive experiences between us that we otherwise did not have (maybe would not have had). Looking back, it helped a lot that our old friend really liked my dad, and was friendly and positive toward him. It helped me feel warmer toward my dad, and appreciate him. It gave us something to do together and to talk about sometimes. Also, my mom was not usually involved, and neither were my siblings. It was a rare and special thing for me (oldest of 4 kids, close in age) to get to do.

My mom is very competitive and needs to be right. Her parents were both this way. But my dad is not. I think a lot of my issues with my dad stemmed from my mom indicating that he was inferior for not being able to parent or run the house like she did. She was always subtly or directly criticizing him. She was a "have it all" mother in the 70s and 80s, working and raising kids, and she was clearly the boss. My dad was more traditional (men take care of things outside and women take care of house and children) although he let her be in charge. I think Mom sort of liked having me as an ally against him. My dad's parents divorced just before I was born, after it turned out his dad had a long term affair with his daughter's best friend. I did not think about the profound effect this probably had on my dad until I was a parent. In fact, I don't remember being encouraged to consider how my dad felt about things. This is something I do opposite with my kids, often pointing out how someone else's perspective may be different and why. My dad got better at his co-parenting role over the years, and was awesome with my youngest sister. She was also born prematurely, and he never took her for granted.

As an adult, studying parenting for my own babies, I have realized a few things. I am and always was a "highly sensitive person" (like the book), and an introvert, with some anxiety and shyness and academic giftedness thrown in. I'm detail oriented and I don't like change/transitions unless I'm the one initiating them (at my own pace). I like to make lists. I like to research, A LOT before making decisions, even simple ones. I forget things from the past easily, and I'm terrible with names. I very much like proper grammar and spelling. I'm probably a little OCD and a bit of a hoarder. I can focus on one thing for a very long time, and I'm a perfectionist (all or nothing). I'm not competitive. I like to think the best of everyone, of humanity, but if person hurts me, I will not easily forget or trust them again, and I'm likely to give up on trying to be close with them. I could go on, but really my point is: Turns out, MY personality is very much like my DAD's!! It took years before I could admit this, and then even longer to admit it without wincing. But it's true!! I have genetically inherited a lot of his personality traits.

I think we were too much alike, and he gave up too easily, and I held a grudge too hard, which my mom inadvertently fostered.

My dad and I are still not super close, but we get along fine, and I care about him. At my wedding 20 years ago, I had both my parents walk me down the aisle, one on each arm. And happily, I married a man who is the father of my dreams to our children. He adores them and appreciates them and plays with them, is interested in everything they do, and wants to give them all the attention he can. He sets a good example, prioritizes their happiness, genuinely enjoys them---everything I ever wanted! And he gets along fine with my dad, too.

My dad is a good grandpa to my kids, and a good dad to his adult children. He would do anything for us we ask. I think he and I were lucky to find a shared activity when I was around 11, to break the cycle we were in and learn to appreciate one another better. I was relieved to let that frustrating energy go, and move on. It also may have coincided with the age when I realized my mother was not perfect....

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

I have read the original post and a couple others from Karen and I have wanted to reply to this thread but I have not been able to put my thoughts together in writing. There is so much I want to say.

First I want to say I could have been there with my husband and son.
My poor husband could not do anything right , meaning, exactly how I did or I though it should be done, in regards to our son. Or even say the right words!

I did not let them get to know each other and have their own relationship . Sure I was not terrible but I did interfere and criticize. I got in the way and I made and us versus him environment in a lot of situations .

What helped me not get to the point like this was learning about unschooling. Lucky I started reading early on and by the time my son was 2.5 years old I had found the yahoo groups  and Sandra's website. 

As I learned and started to get more , little by little I let them be. At the same time I became a better spouse, partner and person by applying unschooling principles to my marriage and relationship with my husband.

So damage was done but much less. By the time I had my daughter and my son was 3.5 I was getting it more and my daughter grew up in a different environment than my son. 
Today my son is 14 and he loves his dad. I wish I had let them have their own relationship sooner. That I had not gotten in the way .
There are some scars but things are getting better and better as now my son likes his dad even more than me I think! Dad on the other hand now can communicate with him better because I am not breathing down his neck and I keep my mouth shut for the most part!

Today someone posted a link on Facebook to an article. I read it and I think it can help one see how our attitude can influence our kids .
It is not an unschooling article and I don't agree conclusion the author came  to.

My conclusion is not that we need "self care" but that being positive and focusing on gratitude and on what is good and right can make our lives sweeter, and the lives of our children. They can sense and feel our emotions .

I think your post tells me, in between the lines ( and I may be wrong), that you created this us( you and your daughter ) versus him( your husband) relationship environment , that you don't really like your husband. You may say you tell her thing you are thankful about him but your comments/body language/demeanor are saying something else.
I think you may have stepped in and tried to save your daughter from your husband's faux passes too many times  and that may have led her not to trust him. 
You don't like him or think he is good enough because he is not doing the way YOU think he should or saying the right words you think he should . He is not you.

He may have given up trying and now he just feels bad and incompetent and an outsider. How can a marriage survive that? How can any relationship survive that ? How can your daughter see him as a good dad if you think he is flawed?

Can you think about this man with more gratitude? Can you trust him to be the father he is, even if different from you?
Can you make him feel welcome and loved again?
Can you be sweet and warm towards him so that your daughter can see and sense love and safety ?
Can you be as kind to him as you are to her ?
Can you think about all the good things  that made you fall in love with him?

Only when you show love, warm, acceptance, trust, gratitude and kindness towards him your daughter will be able to trust and get to know him, if you don't get in their way.

If you keep saving her from him how is she ever going to trust a person she needs saving from?

The article

Alex Polikowsky

Sandra Dodd

Kirby and Keith were not a good match when Kirby was little, and Keith was new at his job (engineering job AND daddy-ing job). I got mothering hormones in abundance. Keith didn’t.

Marty and Keith were a better team / pair / dyad.

Holly and Keith were peachy—by then Keith had some fathering skills and was calmer at work, too.

When Kirby got older, he started to like his dad quite a bit, and now if Kirby calls it’s probably for Keith and not for me. When he comes over, too, he’ll hug me and ask “Where’s dad?” I’m really glad about that.

It’s difficult, but if you can look at a larger picture it might help.

Also, it might be easier for the dad if there are subsequent children but that is NOT AT ALL meant to be a suggestion to have another child if the marriage is shaky. Just to say that in the case of many others who will read this discussion this week or this year, knowing that the dynamics can change with other kids or in later years might be worth keeping in mind.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

The original post mentioned counselling situations one way and another, but if they weren’t unschoolers, it might be worth investing some time and money to give unschoolers a chance to do better. Of the list I’m about to link, for someone to help with this situation, I think Marji Zintz or Roya Sorooshian might be helpful. Amy Childs is busily out of the country this season. But as to “first aid” and some mediation, one of them would surely have ideas. You might try a couple of brainstorming sessions with each. Roya is a licensed family therapist. Marji is a coach and longtime very-calm unschooling mom. :-)

http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

And one of the things that did , also, help me relax was reading about Keith and Kirby back then.

That also made me relax that my son and his dad did not need to have this perfect father/son relationship now. That relationships change, kids grows and change, dads get more comfortable being dads. 

That maybe in the future they would become great friends, or not, and that it was okay.

It did change for us. I suspect it will continue to change as my son gets older too.

Alex P

anita_loomis@...

I am the original poster of this formerly anonymous request. I wanted to write to say thank you (again!) to this group and to update on our now much improved unschooling family life.  


As is often recommended, I took time to read all the replies to my original post and to not respond.  I took time to notice my internal responses to the suggestions and to the generously shared stories of how things have worked and not worked in other unschooling families.  I can see that I had a secret wish or belief that by choosing unschooling (along with therapy and adult children of alcoholics groups and developing my own spirituality and by choosing to be a primarily happy and grateful person (I am a hard workerJ))  I could somehow avoid in my own family all of the perplexing difficulties that I faced growing up in a family with two alcoholic parents! But, whoops, this is exactly the magical thinking that many people coming out of dysfunctional families practice. I have been gently laughing about that. 


By taking time to reflect on what others wrote, I have been able to soften my views about the relationship difficulties between my husband and daughter.  And, as usual, when mom can chillax about something, everybody else can have their responses without an added layer of tension. Acceptance has, once again, shown itself to be the path that opens up possibility. I really felt that I could not accept that my husband and daughter do not have an emotionally warm relationship at this moment. But I can.  I can accept this and not make it the focus of our lives together.  I can be thankful that my daughter will play assassin in the back yard with her dad even though I wish they could play something that doesn’t involve trying to kill each other! It’s a game and they are engaging.  Heck, maybe they can work it out on the imaginary battlefield. 


So, it feels like another layer of the unschooling onion has been peeled off and I am a wee bit closer to the core of the practice.  I appreciate the depth of thinking that goes on here at Always Learning.   

semajrak@...

***I can be thankful that my daughter will play assassin in the back yard with her dad even though I wish they could play something that doesn’t involve trying to kill each other!***

***even though I wish they could play something that doesn’t involve trying to kill each other!***

They are not really trying to kill each other.  But you already know that.  ;-)  They are trying to understand each other and connect in ways that feel good to both of them.  

When my son seven or eight years old, for quite some time, he used to ask me nearly every day (sometimes multiple times a day) to "tickle."  Our "tickle" play involved being physical and making each other laugh.  It was also about understanding boundaries--setting and respecting them.  There was a kind of dance-like, rhythmic quality to our play.  There was humour and slapstick.  There were triumphs and failures and challenges and planning.  By the end of our play, we were often both pooped.  There was so much more going on than simply "tickling."  Unschooling, in general, is like those daily tickling matches.  The learning that happens is richer and deeper than the label we assign to the experience.  

There are some fun optical illusions that involve perspective.  If you Google "perspective optical illusions" you'll find hundreds or more.  If you look at these illusions from different angles, you will see different things.  Some angles allow us to see something wonderful.  Some angles reveal what is behind the illusion.  Some angles look like nothing very interesting at all.

Here's one that Ethan and I made together a few years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4QcyW-qTUg

When you find yourself thinking or saying something like "I wish they could play something that doesn’t involve trying to kill each other," move around a bit.  Investigate that thought from different angles.  Try to understand more of what's really going on.  Like the dinosaur in the above illusion, you might end up seeing something that surprises and delights you.  That surprise and delight is what helps unschooling (and relationships, I believe) thrive.

Karen James

anita_loomis@...

Yeah, I do know that:)

I really like tipping things around and looking at them from other angles.  I think it might be a necessary trait for unschoolers!  That is why I post my questions here on Always Learning. I get such a variety of responses that it shakes up my brain.  It reminds me of when I moved to San Francisco and Santa Cruz, CA just after college.  I encountered people approaching life in ways that I never imagined coming from a small town in Pennsylvania.  And I would just go "Huh, what's that about?" and start looking into it.  Sometimes it actually felt like my brain was stretching! I found I really enjoyed that itchy, scratchy feeling.  Still do.

Another way of looking at a situation from a different perspective that I like to do: Look at my statement and try to find the hidden wish in it. Like, when I say " I wish they would play something that doesn't involve killing each other," I can find that I myself am feeling a shortage or lack of gentleness and fun and friendship in my life.  I see the statement is also about me wishing to have friends to play with who get me in the same way my daughter wishes her dad would understand her! Now there is a situation that I can do something about, simultaneously caring for myself and getting out of their way so they can feel good together.

Also: The T-Rex video is so fun and lovely.  Thank you!  Looking forward to trying it at home.