amberuby@...

I used to be a teacher and have a friend that I did my training with who is still teaching. He recently sent me an article that was discussing the problem of apathy in students and asked me for my thoughts. Then he wrote the following comment:

"I've noticed that it has been taking longer and longer over my teaching career to get kids to understand that they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress. The backlash against struggling toward a goal is greater than I've ever seen it."


I was hoping to explore this idea a little more with this group. I’ve already written a response based on my initial thoughts:

You state "they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress." That is sometimes true. Maybe. I'm trying to think of times this might have been true for me. I recall walking away from an abstract algebra problem, because I couldn't figure out the answer. I went and took a shower, though, and the answer suddenly came out of nowhere! So the funny thing is - I had to go relax and stop thinking, stop struggling, and then I progressed. 


Now, socially, I struggle a lot. I'm not entirely sure if I'm making progress, but I do keep trying. What you call "struggle for progress" is maybe the concept of practice? But I'm not sure if "struggle" is the best word for that process. The word "struggle" makes me think of this page: http://sandradodd.com/battle

. 

I don't know, but I think this comes back to the concept of intrinsic interest. Depending on how attached I am to achieving the end goal, I will either decide to keep trying, or not. When I started training for a half-marathon, I thought I was going to jog. My knees said otherwise. They were in tons of pain. Did I struggle through the pain and keep jogging in order to make progress? No - I slowed to walking, and avoided the pain. After several attempts, I changed my goal from jogging the half marathon to walking the half marathon. So yeah, I'm not entirely sold on your assertion that struggling is necessary for progress.


So, my question is, are there times when struggling is really necessary for progress? I know that for me personally, Carol Dweck’s theories on fixed versus growth mindsets seem to be true – I am quite risk averse, and I have rarely done anything in my life that required repeated lengthy practice in order to get better at it – art, music, sport, that sort of thing. But I also imagine that practicing, for many, is an enjoyable experience, not a struggle, and that’s why they keep at it. 


Plus, the aspect of having a choice is key (noting that my friend used the term “have to” in regards to struggling). Are there times when someone might choose to struggle at something? When I go to open a jar with a stuck lid, I don’t keep struggling with it. I choose lots of other options – tap the lid on the counter, use a lid grip, ask someone else for help.


~Amber



Sarah Thompson

I think struggling is a waste of resources. It is like spinning your tires in the mud. You burn gas and go nowhere. Now, you *might* eventually get out of the mud, but if you take the time to find a ramp, get a tow, or just have a cup of tea and wait for a better idea, what else can you do with the time you would have used to spin the wheels?

My observation of my kids is that they always, ALWAYS, pursue the things that give them joy. Sometimes they get frustrated and appear to be struggling, but that's not what's happening, I don't think. What's happening is that they KNOW they can do it, and the pace of their progress on the task they are choosing is not keeping up with their vision of where they will be when they master it. That disconnect is frustrating. They are not spinning wheels pointlessly; they are aware that they are getting there, just more slowly than feels happy right in that moment.

As a mom, I find that it is very difficult for me if I think my kids are struggling. I want to intercede; to help them get past that feeling. When they are working, and frustrated, I have found that the challenge for me is to support them rather than try to get them to stop so that *I* don't have to feel uncomfortable with their process. That's *my* work to do.

Sarah

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:43 AM, amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I used to be a teacher and have a friend that I did my training with who is still teaching. He recently sent me an article that was discussing the problem of apathy in students and asked me for my thoughts. Then he wrote the following comment:

"I've noticed that it has been taking longer and longer over my teaching career to get kids to understand that they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress. The backlash against struggling toward a goal is greater than I've ever seen it."


I was hoping to explore this idea a little more with this group. I’ve already written a response based on my initial thoughts:

You state "they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress." That is sometimes true. Maybe. I'm trying to think of times this might have been true for me. I recall walking away from an abstract algebra problem, because I couldn't figure out the answer. I went and took a shower, though, and the answer suddenly came out of nowhere! So the funny thing is - I had to go relax and stop thinking, stop struggling, and then I progressed. 


Now, socially, I struggle a lot. I'm not entirely sure if I'm making progress, but I do keep trying. What you call "struggle for progress" is maybe the concept of practice? But I'm not sure if "struggle" is the best word for that process. The word "struggle" makes me think of this page: http://sandradodd.com/battle

. 

I don't know, but I think this comes back to the concept of intrinsic interest. Depending on how attached I am to achieving the end goal, I will either decide to keep trying, or not. When I started training for a half-marathon, I thought I was going to jog. My knees said otherwise. They were in tons of pain. Did I struggle through the pain and keep jogging in order to make progress? No - I slowed to walking, and avoided the pain. After several attempts, I changed my goal from jogging the half marathon to walking the half marathon. So yeah, I'm not entirely sold on your assertion that struggling is necessary for progress.


So, my question is, are there times when struggling is really necessary for progress? I know that for me personally, Carol Dweck’s theories on fixed versus growth mindsets seem to be true – I am quite risk averse, and I have rarely done anything in my life that required repeated lengthy practice in order to get better at it – art, music, sport, that sort of thing. But I also imagine that practicing, for many, is an enjoyable experience, not a struggle, and that’s why they keep at it. 


Plus, the aspect of having a choice is key (noting that my friend used the term “have to” in regards to struggling). Are there times when someone might choose to struggle at something? When I go to open a jar with a stuck lid, I don’t keep struggling with it. I choose lots of other options – tap the lid on the counter, use a lid grip, ask someone else for help.


~Amber




Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 10, 2017, at 10:43 AM, amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

*** "I've noticed that it has been taking longer and longer over my
teaching career to get kids to understand that they have to actually
struggle sometimes to progress. The backlash against struggling
toward a goal is greater than I've ever seen it.” ***

I would say that what he’s really seeing is the backlash against struggling towards a goal *they increasingly don’t believe in* is increasing.

With the greater emphasis on teaching to the test, school feels less and less relevant.

At least in the past, for many kids, it felt possible to put up with school to get the grades and get into college. Now, after years and years of more and more work that feels less and less relevant, they’re understandably balking. They’re asking, “What’s the point?” and not being satisfied with an answer that was never satisfying to begin with.

To invest time and effort into something, you need to believe the time and effort will pay off.

That insular belief that schools provide what kids need, makes it easy to justify blaming the kids when the system doesn’t work.

It’s like the person who asks, “Why is everyone so mean to me?” Is it everyone? Or might the root of the problem be in the common factor: you?

Kids are still kids. The thing that’s changed is school. And the expectations of parents that all kids will be going to college, whether they have any idea what they want to do in life or not.

Anyone who has spent time with kids playing video games *knows* that kids know that sometimes a lot of effort needs to go into reaching a goal. Sometimes the effort isn’t pleasant. But kids weigh the worth of the goal versus what it takes to reach it. If the goal doesn’t feel worth the effort, they’ll go find something that is worth their time.

School feels like it’s wasting their time. If teachers keep dismissing that feedback as just kids being lazy, it’s only going to get worse for teachers and kids.

Joyce

chris ester

This made me think of myself and dance and piano. 

I do not possess a natural talent for dancing, at least not the formal kind of dancing that I wanted to learn when I was a child. I was not one of those people who saw a step once and then could perform it nearly perfectly the first time. My youngest child was like that, I had friends like that, but me, I had to see the step broken down piece by piece. I had to learn it by doing each tiny part of the step a bit at a time and then the next part and then the next...  Then I would know what the step was supposed to be and I would have to practice it slowly, slowly day after day until I could get up to full speed. I had one other friend who had to learn the steps like this. We would practice together. We had a teacher that never criticized, she would only give gentle correction and would tell us to keep trying and then we would get there. 

And we always did "get there", and we had fun on the way. We both would be so proud when we would master each step. And with each step, our confidence in our bodies grew and our ability to learn new steps grew. In the end, my friend and I became very passable dancers who really loved dancing. No, neither of us would ever be dancing professionally, but I managed to do well enough to be a number of musicals and danced in each of them, keeping up with the folks who could dance circles around most of us.  

Now, playing piano is another thing that I did not take to naturally. I took lessons, I practiced. I actually enjoyed scales! But I found that I was not having fun practicing, I wasn't feeling like I truly conquered something with each step of progress and after about a year, I stopped taking lessons. 

I never regretted the time that I spent trying to master dance or piano. Though I really only managed to "master" one of them. I suppose you could use the term "struggle" for my attempts at learning dance and piano. But I only found one of those activities rewarding enough to keep struggling. Dance was sometimes frustrating, but I loved it so much that it was worth the frustration and the effort. Piano was frustrating too, but I didn't love it and so I didn't keep trying. The reward of playing a piece of music just wasn't enough, like mastering a step in dance was. 

So, maybe what your teacher friend is noticing is that kids are just not convinced that the reward is worth the work. 
Chris



On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:43 AM, amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I used to be a teacher and have a friend that I did my training with who is still teaching. He recently sent me an article that was discussing the problem of apathy in students and asked me for my thoughts. Then he wrote the following comment:

"I've noticed that it has been taking longer and longer over my teaching career to get kids to understand that they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress. The backlash against struggling toward a goal is greater than I've ever seen it."


I was hoping to explore this idea a little more with this group. I’ve already written a response based on my initial thoughts:

You state "they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress." That is sometimes true. Maybe. I'm trying to think of times this might have been true for me. I recall walking away from an abstract algebra problem, because I couldn't figure out the answer. I went and took a shower, though, and the answer suddenly came out of nowhere! So the funny thing is - I had to go relax and stop thinking, stop struggling, and then I progressed. 


Now, socially, I struggle a lot. I'm not entirely sure if I'm making progress, but I do keep trying. What you call "struggle for progress" is maybe the concept of practice? But I'm not sure if "struggle" is the best word for that process. The word "struggle" makes me think of this page: http://sandradodd.com/battle

. 

I don't know, but I think this comes back to the concept of intrinsic interest. Depending on how attached I am to achieving the end goal, I will either decide to keep trying, or not. When I started training for a half-marathon, I thought I was going to jog. My knees said otherwise. They were in tons of pain. Did I struggle through the pain and keep jogging in order to make progress? No - I slowed to walking, and avoided the pain. After several attempts, I changed my goal from jogging the half marathon to walking the half marathon. So yeah, I'm not entirely sold on your assertion that struggling is necessary for progress.


So, my question is, are there times when struggling is really necessary for progress? I know that for me personally, Carol Dweck’s theories on fixed versus growth mindsets seem to be true – I am quite risk averse, and I have rarely done anything in my life that required repeated lengthy practice in order to get better at it – art, music, sport, that sort of thing. But I also imagine that practicing, for many, is an enjoyable experience, not a struggle, and that’s why they keep at it. 


Plus, the aspect of having a choice is key (noting that my friend used the term “have to” in regards to struggling). Are there times when someone might choose to struggle at something? When I go to open a jar with a stuck lid, I don’t keep struggling with it. I choose lots of other options – tap the lid on the counter, use a lid grip, ask someone else for help.


~Amber




Kelly Callahan

The story about dancing is a good illustration of the concept of deliberate practice. It seems essential if you want to master and excel, and whether you struggle or not is up to you. She could have struggled by trying to learn the way others do, or emulate another approach. But instead she knew what she needed and practiced that way, deliberately. Even people who are 'naturals' will come to points that are challenging, though I don't think the struggle is inherent- we bring that energy ourselves. Being impatient with the process of our own learning and mastery. 



Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 10, 2017, at 3:31 PM, chris ester chris.homeschool@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

This made me think of myself and dance and piano. 

I do not possess a natural talent for dancing, at least not the formal kind of dancing that I wanted to learn when I was a child. I was not one of those people who saw a step once and then could perform it nearly perfectly the first time. My youngest child was like that, I had friends like that, but me, I had to see the step broken down piece by piece. I had to learn it by doing each tiny part of the step a bit at a time and then the next part and then the next...  Then I would know what the step was supposed to be and I would have to practice it slowly, slowly day after day until I could get up to full speed. I had one other friend who had to learn the steps like this. We would practice together. We had a teacher that never criticized, she would only give gentle correction and would tell us to keep trying and then we would get there. 

And we always did "get there", and we had fun on the way. We both would be so proud when we would master each step. And with each step, our confidence in our bodies grew and our ability to learn new steps grew. In the end, my friend and I became very passable dancers who really loved dancing. No, neither of us would ever be dancing professionally, but I managed to do well enough to be a number of musicals and danced in each of them, keeping up with the folks who could dance circles around most of us.  

Now, playing piano is another thing that I did not take to naturally. I took lessons, I practiced. I actually enjoyed scales! But I found that I was not having fun practicing, I wasn't feeling like I truly conquered something with each step of progress and after about a year, I stopped taking lessons. 

I never regretted the time that I spent trying to master dance or piano. Though I really only managed to "master" one of them. I suppose you could use the term "struggle" for my attempts at learning dance and piano. But I only found one of those activities rewarding enough to keep struggling. Dance was sometimes frustrating, but I loved it so much that it was worth the frustration and the effort. Piano was frustrating too, but I didn't love it and so I didn't keep trying. The reward of playing a piece of music just wasn't enough, like mastering a step in dance was. 

So, maybe what your teacher friend is noticing is that kids are just not convinced that the reward is worth the work. 
Chris



On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 10:43 AM, amberuby@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I used to be a teacher and have a friend that I did my training with who is still teaching. He recently sent me an article that was discussing the problem of apathy in students and asked me for my thoughts. Then he wrote the following comment:

"I've noticed that it has been taking longer and longer over my teaching career to get kids to understand that they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress. The backlash against struggling toward a goal is greater than I've ever seen it."


I was hoping to explore this idea a little more with this group. I’ve already written a response based on my initial thoughts:

You state "they have to actually struggle sometimes to progress." That is sometimes true. Maybe. I'm trying to think of times this might have been true for me. I recall walking away from an abstract algebra problem, because I couldn't figure out the answer. I went and took a shower, though, and the answer suddenly came out of nowhere! So the funny thing is - I had to go relax and stop thinking, stop struggling, and then I progressed. 


Now, socially, I struggle a lot. I'm not entirely sure if I'm making progress, but I do keep trying. What you call "struggle for progress" is maybe the concept of practice? But I'm not sure if "struggle" is the best word for that process. The word "struggle" makes me think of this page: http://sandradodd.com/battle

. 

I don't know, but I think this comes back to the concept of intrinsic interest. Depending on how attached I am to achieving the end goal, I will either decide to keep trying, or not. When I started training for a half-marathon, I thought I was going to jog. My knees said otherwise. They were in tons of pain. Did I struggle through the pain and keep jogging in order to make progress? No - I slowed to walking, and avoided the pain. After several attempts, I changed my goal from jogging the half marathon to walking the half marathon. So yeah, I'm not entirely sold on your assertion that struggling is necessary for progress.


So, my question is, are there times when struggling is really necessary for progress? I know that for me personally, Carol Dweck’s theories on fixed versus growth mindsets seem to be true – I am quite risk averse, and I have rarely done anything in my life that required repeated lengthy practice in order to get better at it – art, music, sport, that sort of thing. But I also imagine that practicing, for many, is an enjoyable experience, not a struggle, and that’s why they keep at it. 


Plus, the aspect of having a choice is key (noting that my friend used the term “have to” in regards to struggling). Are there times when someone might choose to struggle at something? When I go to open a jar with a stuck lid, I don’t keep struggling with it. I choose lots of other options – tap the lid on the counter, use a lid grip, ask someone else for help.


~Amber




Sandra Dodd

-=-Anyone who has spent time with kids playing video games *knows* that kids know that sometimes a lot of effort needs to go into reaching a goal. Sometimes the effort isn’t pleasant. -=-

Sometimes the effort IS pleasant. I saw my kids learn tons of things effortlessly, joyfully, while laughing and hanging out with friends.

I’m pretty sure some of the same teachers who complain that kids won’t “struggle” are jealous and resentful of fun things, and of joy.

I’m going back to my own last sentence. "I’m pretty sure some of the same teachers…” and parents and childless adults who WANT kids to struggle and suffer and sit down and shut up and stop having fun…..

I want to change “some” to “most” and guess that the numbers woud be over a billion if we could have a worldwide show of hands.

I’m glad you sent your friend the link to http://sandradodd.com/battle

Another page he might possibly be interested in would be http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
Maybe it’s not related, but I bet at least he would laugh and recognize some of the same energy.

Depending what he’s teaching, and then regardless of what he’s teaching, the importance of EVERY child (or even a majority) engaging in a STRUGGLE is not important to every child, it’s only important for the teacher’s stats, so he can prove he “taught” so he can earn his pay. That’s not something teachers want to look right at or think about (nor something most of them have even ever considered).

Most of my teachers told me their class was the most important of all my classes. But they didn’t know for sure that music, art, driver’s ed or typing weren’t the most important class I was taking. Still, most of them truly believed it, or hoped the kids would believe it.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

When you get back to your friend, maybe (if you have’nt already done so) tell him lots of unschoolers were teachers (or still are) and some trained to be, to the point that they saw what was involved, and opted not to teach.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-To invest time and effort into something, you need to believe the time and effort will pay off. -=-

Any kids who are observant and actually DO understand some mathematical concepts will have figured out that grades are competition, and the skewed bell curve is a fixed reality, so that no matter how much some of the struggle, even if ALL struggled to the max, still not more that 15% will get an A, nearly that many will get D or F, and the others will be in the B and C range (depending on the names of the striations or the numbers associated with them, I mean).

A friend of mine worked in a private high school, after working in museums for a long time. The first semester, she assigned grades as she knew was required and expected in public school, and the office called her in and explained that those parents paid a lot of money, and all the kids should get A’s and B’s. She was indignant about it, but I was just amused (at my unschooling, kids nearly grown distance). It was just another proof that comparing “gradepoint averages” is worthless, and that the angst and sorrow poured over the whole topic by parents and teens applying to universities and all that is a worldwide festival of sorrowful jackoff. I’m making light of it because this is an unschooling discussion. In many families it is NOT a light matter. It is a matter of life and sometimes death.

I hope the friend of the original poster will be inspired to lighten up, and maybe even to make his teaching so interesting that learning is happening without struggle.

Sandra

chris ester

I remember when I would be surprised that a homeschooling parent would be a former (or current) teacher or the spouse of a teacher. And many of those parents are unschoolers, in large part because they were teachers and saw the effects of forcing kids into some sort of box to "learn" or at least to score well on a test. 

Chris

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 12:22 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

When you get back to your friend, maybe (if you have’nt already done so) tell him lots of unschoolers were teachers (or still are) and some trained to be, to the point that they saw what was involved, and opted not to teach.

Sandra


chris ester

A friend of mine who attended a small private, college told me that there was a professor who was known to reward females for wearing a skirt and sitting in the front row of the classroom by giving them nothing less than a "C" in his classes. 

She thought that it was funny, and was perplexed that I saw it as less than amusing. 

As a child, I didn't care about grades. I usually got good grades because it was easier to do the work and get a decent grade than to not do the work and suffer the wrath of the various adults in my life (not the least of which were my parents). 

When spelling tests were a part of school for me (elementary school?) my grades in spelling were lower (B's) than for most other subjects. I am mildly dyslexic (an imperfect term, to be sure, but it makes my point) and so I would inevitably reverse a few letters in a couple of words every test. I was apparently labeled as "smart" so several of my teachers would always explain this "failure" as me being "lazy" because I obviously did not work "hard enough" or I would have gotten a "better" grade.  

For whatever reason (I have been described as "naturally contrary" by relatives) I never really cared about what grades I got. My parents generally would ask more about what I did and how I liked things at school, not what grades I had received and so I didn't get a lot of pressure about grades. I think my parents may have worried or been upset if I got "bad" grades, but since a "B" isn't really bad, they didn't stress. I remember thinking that it was weird that my teachers seemed to be more worried about what grades I received than me or my parents.  As an adult, I realize that they had statistics to worry about and would have to answer questions about why a child who tested well was not getting good grades. I always did very well on standardized tests. 

I truly believe that test taking is a talent that I was born with. I read about how to do well on tests like this (or it was read to me? I was very young and did not read "early") and always did well on standardized tests. I have taught people how to do well on these tests. A coworker of mine had never taken a standardized test until she had to sit for her social work licensure exam. She did very poorly the first time she took the test. After I tutored her on testing skills, and she took a couple of practice exams, she more than doubled her performance and passed with a very good score. 

I have met people who help to construct tests like the ones that they give children in schools and they honestly believe that the tests that they give these kids actually measure something other than the ability to take a certain kind of test. 
Chris

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-To invest time and effort into something, you need to believe the time and effort will pay off. -=-

Any kids who are observant and actually DO understand some mathematical concepts will have figured out that grades are competition, and the skewed bell curve is a fixed reality, so that no matter how much some of the struggle, even if ALL struggled to the max, still not more that 15% will get an A, nearly that many will get D or F, and the others will be in the B and C range (depending on the names of the striations or the numbers associated with them, I mean).

A friend of mine worked in a private high school, after working in museums for a long time. The first semester, she assigned grades as she knew was required and expected in public school, and the office called her in and explained that those parents paid a lot of money, and all the kids should get A’s and B’s. She was indignant about it, but I was just amused (at my unschooling, kids nearly grown distance). It was just another proof that comparing “gradepoint averages” is worthless, and that the angst and sorrow poured over the whole topic by parents and teens applying to universities and all that is a worldwide festival of sorrowful jackoff. I’m making light of it because this is an unschooling discussion. In many families it is NOT a light matter. It is a matter of life and sometimes death.

I hope the friend of the original poster will be inspired to lighten up, and maybe even to make his teaching so interesting that learning is happening without struggle.

Sandra


Rinelle

One thing I noticed, when I wasn’t trying to make my child do things on a school timetable, was how much easier a skill was to learn when she was ready. As an example, telling the time is often taught in first grade, and teachers put quite a lot of time into it. I can’t remember what age my daughter was when she worked it out, but she brought a watch up to me, asked me how to tell the time, then went ‘oh, that’s how it works’. And it was done.

If I’d tried to push it on a school timetable, she probably would have ‘struggled’, both because she wasn’t interested, and because she wasn’t ready to learn that skill yet. As they seem to be pushing kids to learn earlier and earlier, I bet that has a lot to do with the appearance of struggling.

Tamara

chris ester

My son was a "late" reader. I am not entirely sure that he wasn't reading some, but we read for him, he used audio books, etc and really got along quite well. When he was about 14, he just started reading--and his reading was at least "on grade level" or maybe a bit "above" grade level. Basically, I noticed that he was was reading the same stuff that his schooly friends were all reading so I guess that is what I mean by "on grade level". And he would regularly read stuff that was from technical manuals for college level courses, which I am supposing is above the grade level that your average 14 year old would be. 

Either way, we did occasionally talk about phonics through the years because I learned to read and spell using phonics and so I would share what I knew when the subject would come up as to why something was spelled the way it was spelled. I was just struck that most people probably don't talk about why things are spelled how they are or what languages words have come from. I guess we are a "wordy" crowd....  

Our home has always been full of books, we have always read out loud as a family or listened to audio books (the fully produced/acted ones are amazing) and we all use/used the written word on a daily basis. We never stressed about when anyone would learn to read or who was reading or wasn't... though my son did seem to feel that he was "behind" sometimes. I tried to reassure him that he would be reading one day and that everyone learns at a different pace. I would point out how many very complicated things he knew and could do already and that there were many kids his age that found those things difficult.  

Now that he is nearly 21, he still has some trouble spelling sometimes, but knows how to look things up or asks someone and is a happy reader who has no "baggage" around reading. He likes reading, he reads for pleasure, he reads for purpose... 

This in contrast to my own process learning to read which I remember being painful and unpleasant and full of misery. The irony of this is that I am pretty certain that I wasn't a confident reader to somewhere around 14 when reading just made sense. My theory as to why this happened is that my brain just developed what it needed for reading to get easy. I think that the same thing happened with my son but he skipped the misery part.  Unschooling win!
chris

On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 6:00 AM, 'Rinelle' rinelle@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

One thing I noticed, when I wasn’t trying to make my child do things on a school timetable, was how much easier a skill was to learn when she was ready. As an example, telling the time is often taught in first grade, and teachers put quite a lot of time into it. I can’t remember what age my daughter was when she worked it out, but she brought a watch up to me, asked me how to tell the time, then went ‘oh, that’s how it works’. And it was done.

If I’d tried to push it on a school timetable, she probably would have ‘struggled’, both because she wasn’t interested, and because she wasn’t ready to learn that skill yet. As they seem to be pushing kids to learn earlier and earlier, I bet that has a lot to do with the appearance of struggling.

Tamara


Jo Isaac

Tamara said ==One thing I noticed, when I wasn’t trying to make my child do things on a school timetable, was how much easier a skill was to learn when she was ready.==

Same thing here - also with telling time. My son got an awesome Harry Potter pocket watch for his 10th birthday - and had never told time using an analog clock before that. We had a 10 minute conversation in the car about how each portion was five minutes, then he sat in silence for about 20 minutes, then he could tell time to the minute. Definitely no struggle.

Recently, he wanted to learn to tie his shoelaces. He's still 10, though closer to 11. I guess most people would think it outrageous a 10 year old didn't tie his shoelaces?! Anyway - we sat together with a spare pair of shoes and he copied me twice, then he could do it. I'm pretty sure if we'd tried that at 5 or 6 - when conventional parenting dictates, before his dexterity and hand-eye coordination was really ready, it would have been way more of a struggle, too.

It seems the 'struggle' only happens when you are trying to force kids to do something they aren't developmentally ready to do yet and/or aren't interested in.

Jo