Sandra Dodd

Anonymously presented; outrage and defensive ideas probably won’t be helpful, so let’s go with peace and future, please.
________________________________________

I wrote some time ago to ask for advice and wisdom on saving my marriage (Email posted anonymously by you 23/5/16 on Always Learning).

This is an update followed by questions.

[NOTE FROM SANDRA: If someone could bring a link to that earlier discussion and post it here, I’d appreciate it.]
---------------------------

My family situation has developed in the sense that my husband has decided (for many months now) that the only solution to his and our problems is to leave the family and move to the other side of the world to find himself and experience things he feels the urge to do. For a long time after the move he would no be able to help financially or to come and visit the children. He leaves the responsibility of the children in my hands and says he will be able to help in a vague "one or two years".

I am really not sure what else I could do to prevent this. I tried my best to follow the advice from the thread in May although I do have troubles juggling full time work, looking after the children when I'm at home, and trying to deal with his unhappiness. I have read some the websites originally suggested, and books, but I haven't been able to go to counseling as yet because of financial and time constraints.

I don't want to break our family, I'd love for my children to experience their dad every day and have him in their life. To find the man I fell in love with again and to grow together. To hug and kiss and discuss things. I have no idea how to change his mind anymore and it does feel like a one-sided endeavour and a bit silly and stubborn at that.

He looks after the children while I work full time and I have no idea how they will react to the abandonment. They are extremely attached to him. He doesn't want to be a stay-at-home dad but he declined going to work with me re-arranging my schedule. I can't work any less at present because of our visa situation and because I'm the only one providing income. I find it difficult to enjoy work because I know he is at home and not liking it and difficult because I'd rather work part-time and look after my children more.

My husband has been having an extramarital relationship for more than one year now, knowing that I am aware of it and not stopping it despite my pleading. I feel hurt as a woman and as a wife. We have been living together throughout this entire time but physical affection is now very rare. He is profoundly unhappy with himself and with his life and I feel suffocated by all this negativity and the feeling of responsibility. I feel that I wasn't able to help him and maybe he would indeed be better off without me. My self esteem has become pretty low and feel guilty for a lot if things: "If I had done, this, that, the other, he would have been happy". Some of his actions have been pretty damaging for my trust in him and I feel unsafe with him at the moment (not as in physical violence but with my heart).

I've told him that I'm still prepared and willing to work on us but I do find it difficult while he carries on this relationship. He has repeatedly said that his other relationship is not the issue and that we had problems as a couple even before. He also says that even if I could forgive him he can't forgive himself. He still carries on.

He has pretty much told me that "we don't work together" and that to make it work he "would need to change too much". That this is the end of us. He still says that he loves me but has to go away to be a better person for his children and himself. Because he's a "shell of a person". He is still living with us and this makes it even more difficult for me to comprehend. I don't understand what he means by love and why he's still here.

I don't understand how this can be good for my children to experience and if it is still worth for me to keep trying. I don't think at all that separation would make everything better, but at this point maybe being away from us would indeed make him happier and myself less resentful and guilty. Less wrapped up in his negativity.

How would you prepare children for separation if everything else fails?

How would you support them? And yourself?

Thank you all

Sandra Dodd

-=-He looks after the children while I work full time and I have no idea how they will react to the abandonment.-=-

If you CALL it “abandonment,” it will be that. I don’t think you should. I think you should tell them he needs to go, for a while.

-=-I don't understand what he means by love and why he's still here. -=-

So you want him there but you want him gone? It might be good to mourn the loss of the relationship you had and not try to bring it back. If he moves back and you are together again, he will not be the shell of the person you fell in love with, but he won’t be that original person in those days and times, either.

This part I understand the very least:
-=- I have read some the websites originally suggested, and books, but I haven't been able to go to counseling as yet because of financial and time constraints. -=-

Daycare will cost money now, (or school could be used as daycare). It will cost him money to travel. It will cost, still, to pay for regular expenses.

It may be too late for this family, but not for others. If you need help, GET help. There are some people here who are unschoolers or who know lots about unschooling and most of them could help with family peace and harmony: http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
It might cost more time and money to find an in-person local marriage counsellor, and many of them will spend two or three sessions trying to figure out what the hell unschooling is and then telling you that THAT is your problem. I’d like to think that it’s NOT the problem, but in case it is, I hope the counsellors on my page would recognize that early and advise you on tweaking unschooling so that it is building cohesion and not being divisive.

-=-How would you prepare children for separation if everything else fails?-=-

You should figure out what you’re going to do when/if he leaves, and tell them THAT, and bypass any frightening “I have no idea what’s going to become of us now!” Get your plan and your soothing ideas ready. You’re not being blindsided, and that’s good!

I hope others will have ideas about these and the other questions, too!

Sandra

Sam


~You should figure out what you’re going to do when/if he leaves, and tell them THAT, and bypass any frightening “I have no idea what’s going to become of us now!” Get your plan and your soothing ideas ready. You’re not being blindsided, and that’s good!~

I agree with this. Get a plan in place as to how you are going to manage this. If this is really happening, you need to accept his decision, and get on with reorganising your lives without him. 
The quicker you can know what you're going to do, and come to terms with it, the easier the transition will be for your children.

If you panic, they will. If you're afraid, they will be.

Now is the time for you to learn some new skills and learn to manage this new situation.
Keeping respectful to Daddy and about Daddy will help the childen also. 
If you're angry with him or upset by him, so will they be, if they see it.

I know it's very very hard, and I know your feelings must be all over the place about this. But you need to be strong and stay practical.
The quicker you can do this the easier it will be for you all to cope with the transition.

And if you can get some online therapy it can really help with processing all your emotions and understanding the situation. 
I have found betterhelp.com very helpful as you can write any time you like, throughout the week, for a set weekly amount.

My therapist is very homeschooling friendly, and it's without the stress of organising childcare or keeping appointments which I've found very hard with an in person therapist and unschooling.

Sam 




[email protected]

Sandra, you have some wonderful ideas for this mom.

I know for me, that when I am very stressed, having someone to talk to, or write to, is so helpful.  If this mom or dad has any interest, I'm sure there might be several, or many, on this list who would be willing to help.  And yes, they can find the money, because they will need to find it for childcare, etc.  I do find that email and telephone therapy is much easier to work out when I am completely overwhelmed and getting to an appointment would be very difficult.

I am a licensed psychotherapist (LCSW) and have been unschooling for almost 29 years.  I know you have a list of therapists you recommend who might be willing to help them as well.

I hope this mom and/or dad can reach out to someone for help.

Molly



From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Family separation—ideas wanted

 
-=-He looks after the children while I work full time and I have no idea how they will react to the abandonment.-=-

If you CALL it “abandonment,” it will be that. I don’t think you should. I think you should tell them he needs to go, for a while.

-=-I don't understand what he means by love and why he's still here. -=-

So you want him there but you want him gone? It might be good to mourn the loss of the relationship you had and not try to bring it back. If he moves back and you are together again, he will not be the shell of the person you fell in love with, but he won’t be that original person in those days and times, either.

This part I understand the very least:
-=- I have read some the websites originally suggested, and books, but I haven't been able to go to counseling as yet because of financial and time constraints. -=-

Daycare will cost money now, (or school could be used as daycare). It will cost him money to travel. It will cost, still, to pay for regular expenses.

It may be too late for this family, but not for others. If you need help, GET help. There are some people here who are unschoolers or who know lots about unschooling and most of them could help with family peace and harmony: http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
It might cost more time and money to find an in-person local marriage counsellor, and many of them will spend two or three sessions trying to figure out what the hell unschooling is and then telling you that THAT is your problem. I’d like to think that it’s NOT the problem, but in case it is, I hope the counsellors on my page would recognize that early and advise you on tweaking unschooling so that it is building cohesion and not being divisive.

-=-How would you prepare children for separation if everything else fails?-=-

You should figure out what you’re going to do when/if he leaves, and tell them THAT, and bypass any frightening “I have no idea what’s going to become of us now!” Get your plan and your soothing ideas ready. You’re not being blindsided, and that’s good!

I hope others will have ideas about these and the other questions, too!

Sandra




K Pennell

Having been through difficult times in our marriage, I can relate to some of what you are saying.

You say you love him. You know he is very unhappy. Perhaps, at this point, it makes sense to encourage him to go away for a while if he needs to, so he can be happy. Encourage him to stay in touch and reach out to the children, wherever he is. Be sweet, let him know you are telling him to go, because you care about him (not because you are angry). Make sure to use positive language with the kids. Dad is on a voyage of self-discovery. He loves you, he'll always love you. Look on a map where Dad is, learn about the area. Make it an adventure they can share, as much as possible.

I am a bit confused about his plans. Is he serious about leaving on this voyage? Does he have plans and a way to pay for his trip? Is he still at home now out of guilt, or financial constraints, or because he is torn about leaving?

If he is serious about going, what are your plans? Do you have family or close friends in the area who can help with the kids? If not, how can you arrange things as easily as possible for them? Try to have a plan in place so any transitions are as seamless as possible.This will be an adjustment. If you are calm and prepared, it will help them.

What are you doing for you? Dealing with a severely depressed spouse can be stressful, especially if the spouse feels that the marriage is a cause of his unhappiness. If you can't afford therapy, what else might help you? Find support for yourself from faith services, family and/or friends, books, a hot bath.



From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 1:18 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Family separation—ideas wanted

Anonymously presented; outrage and defensive ideas probably won’t be helpful, so let’s go with peace and future, please.
________________________________________

I wrote some time ago to ask for advice and wisdom on saving my marriage (Email posted anonymously by you 23/5/16 on Always Learning).

This is an update followed by questions.

[NOTE FROM SANDRA:  If someone could bring a link to that earlier discussion and post it here, I’d appreciate it.]
---------------------------

My family situation has developed in the sense that my husband has decided (for many months now) that the only solution to his and our problems is to leave the family and move to the other side of the world to find himself and experience things he feels the urge to do. For a long time after the move he would no be able to help financially or to come and visit the children. He leaves the responsibility of the children in my hands and says he will be able to help in a vague "one or two years".

I am really not sure what else I could do to prevent this. I tried my best to follow the advice from the thread in May although I do have troubles juggling full time work, looking after the children when I'm at home, and trying to deal with his unhappiness. I have read some the websites originally suggested, and books, but I haven't been able to go to counseling as yet because of financial and time constraints.

I don't want to break our family, I'd love for my children to experience their dad every day and have him in their life. To find the man I fell in love with again and to grow together. To hug and kiss and discuss things. I have no idea how to change his mind anymore and it does feel like a one-sided endeavour and a bit silly and stubborn at that.

He looks after the children while I work full time and I have no idea how they will react to the abandonment. They are extremely attached to him. He doesn't want to be a stay-at-home dad but he declined going to work with me re-arranging my schedule. I can't work any less at present because of our visa situation and because I'm the only one providing income. I find it difficult to enjoy work because I know he is at home and not liking it and difficult because I'd rather work part-time and look after my children more.

My husband has been having an extramarital relationship for more than one year now, knowing that I am aware of it and not stopping it despite my pleading. I feel hurt as a woman and as a wife. We have been living together throughout this entire time but physical affection is now very rare. He is profoundly unhappy with himself and with his life and I feel suffocated by all this negativity and the feeling of responsibility. I feel that I wasn't able to help him and maybe he would indeed be better off without me. My self esteem has become pretty low and feel guilty for a lot if things: "If I had done, this, that, the other, he would have been happy". Some of his actions have been pretty damaging for my trust in him and I feel unsafe with him at the moment (not as in physical violence but with my heart).

I've told him that I'm still prepared and willing to work on us but I do find it difficult while he carries on this relationship. He has repeatedly said that his other relationship is not the issue and that we had problems as a couple even before. He also says that even if I could forgive him he can't forgive himself. He still carries on.

He has pretty much told me that "we don't work together" and that to make it work he "would need to change too much". That this is the end of us. He still says that he loves me but has to go away to be a better person for his children and himself. Because he's a "shell of a person". He is still living with us and this makes it even more difficult for me to comprehend. I don't understand what he means by love and why he's still here.

I don't understand how this can be good for my children to experience and if it is still worth for me to keep trying. I don't think at all that separation would make everything better, but at this point maybe being away from us would indeed make him happier and myself less resentful and guilty. Less wrapped up in his negativity.

How would you prepare children for separation if everything else fails?

How would you support them? And yourself?

Thank you all

------------------------------------
Posted by: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
------------------------------------


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Sandra Dodd

There were a lot of questions in K Pennell’s post. We don’t need to know more to examine what was written in the first place. So to the anonymous poster, please take those as rhetorical questions for your own consideration and don’t feel AT ALL obligated to respond to the readers.

Sandra

Vanessa

I recommend the book "conscious uncoupling" by Katherine Woodward Thomas which is helping my ex-husband and  I immensely with our separation. For us it is the unschooling version of separation and divorce, it gives help and advice on a very different way. This book can be worked through alone or as a couple but will bring about shift in your behavior and focus for the benefit of yourself but also for your kids. It will help you deal with your own hurts etc privately but also shift your focus to gratitude, peace and harmony as a family unit going forwards. It will help you support your partner (ex-partner) and your children to maintain their relationship and keep the family unit strong and positive even if you are not in a relationship yourselves.
Vanessa

Sandra Dodd

The older discussion with an anonymous post from the same mom, from May, is here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/conversations/topics/77078
(Thanks, Karen James, for finding this.)

It’s a large, complicated situation.
Whether one reads all that or just the current problems, whether ideas come to you that you want to share or not, considering how small decisions now can affect the future, or that unpredicted situations can occur might help with gratitude and abundance for those who are still in a place where relationships can be bolstered and fortified.

Best wishes for a peaceful, happy New Year to all.

Sandra

Kimm H

---- I guess my question is, how do you connect and keep your heart open and stay as a family when you feel all trust and love have be been shattered? How is this good for the children?---

My heart goes out to you, friend.

I didn't read through all the replies so perhaps this has been suggested. But if alcoholism is a factor (and it could be whether he is drinking at the moment or not), Al-Anon can help you practice "loving detachment" to continue a difficult relationship with personal peace, no matter what is going on with your spouse.

Try six meetings and decide if it's right for you.

Kimm

Sent from a tiny touch screen. Pls excuse typos.

Sandra Dodd

-=-But if alcoholism is a factor (and it could be whether he is drinking at the moment or not), Al-Anon can help you practice "loving detachment" to continue a difficult relationship with personal peace, no matter what is going on with your spouse. -=-

That is a REALLY good idea.
I had an increasingly-drinking alcoholic mother, and she left my dad when I was 18 and my sister was 14, and the repercussions got worse and worse. It was nearly 15 years after that, when friends got me to go to Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings That changed my life. I wish it had been around or I had known about it much earlier. Even in my early 30’s, the effects of growing up with alcoholism were marring my life and I was marring other people’s lives.

Sandra

brmino@...

I was in a position very similar to yours about 4-5 years ago. When I found out my husband was having an affair and wanted to leave me (for the same reasons your husband is giving) I went into pornstar-wifey overdrive. I'll spare you the details but the result was, he decided to stay

The problem was, his wanting to leave wasn't actually the "problem." The problem was (and still is) he's an alcoholic with some significant mental health issues. Within a few weeks of our renewed relationship, in a jealous drunken rage, he tried to throw me from a third-story deck, in front of our then 9yr

At that point, I knew *I* had to leave.

From what I knew of my child, it seemed the easiest way to do that was to change almost everything. We went somewhere far away that she was familiar with and where there were people we both loved and trusted who could help with childcare and living. The distance was also important because my child needed to feel safe and having another country (unpassable by car to someone with a DWI) between us helped with that. 

That may not be useful in your situation - for my child, having our own great adventure helped her not feel the sudden emptiness of her life without him there

------

That's the back story - what I learned along the way is perhaps more important:

I tried to keep our marriage together for far longer than I should have because I wanted so much for my child to have a "whole" family. What I know now is that the aggression I was exposed to, she was as well. All those years I thought I was doing the "best" thing were actually causing more harm, to her, than living without a dad probably would have. 

My child has told me more than once that she wishes I'd left when she was still a baby because knowing her dad, he would have disappeared. I didn't leave because I too thought he'd be gone with the wind if I left - that he'd spiral out of control and that it was better for her to keep him close and safe. 

Some adults are not capable or willing to put their children's needs above their own. Some adults cause significant harm to their children. You need to be honest with yourself - is this who he is? If so, there's nothing worth working towards in terms of a life "together" at this point in time - maybe that will change, maybe it won't. My daughter's father has asked for us to try again repeatedly over the past 4 years but he still drinks, still uses lots of drugs, is still crazy, unsafe and unpredictable. My daughter has asked repeatedly to never have to live close to him again (he can be one of the funnest dads in the world but he's also terrifying and hurtful)

After we left, I made it a point to never speak poorly of him and to try to explain that the things he'd done and was continuing to do weren't about her, or about his love (or lack of) for her. Recently, she told me she needed me to stop "defending him." And she was right - he is hard to deal with, he can be a self-centered ass, he plays head games with her - she doesn't need to know "why" I think he does those things, she just needs someone to listen while she unloads

That's a longwinded warning to be careful about what you say - yes, tell them he's gone on a journey but realize that at some point, they may well see that journey as him choosing that over them and it will hurt. 

I grew up in a divorced family where one parent constantly bad-mouthed the other. I refused to do that - there's a lot of room, though, in between bad-mouthing and defending - find that place as quickly as possible (and it will change as they age)

If I were you, and I couldn't stay where I was (can you?), I would find the least expensive place I could live and work which also has some support available (family or friends) to help with the kids. Go there. If your goal is to continue unschooling, find a place where you can work less and be with them more. Ideally, you'll find somewhere you can afford help at home or, perhaps, have family/friends who can help.

Facilitate as much communication with him as your children want. If/when that changes, support that change. When my daughter told me last year she didn't want to see or talk to her dad for a bit I had to push back the idea that she "needs" him. 

Find a counselor - no excuses. You need someone you can talk to. You children may well need to speak to someone who isn't you at some point too. This is beyond important. 

How do you "keep your heart open"?  - you just do - you both fucked up a million times along the way. You loved him, he's the father of your kids, and he's impossible to be with right now. Your love is important because it keeps away your own self-loathing and darkness- maybe he'll figure things out? Wrath won't help him get there but, honestly, your love won't either. That's up to him - but not holding onto and feeding the pain of abandonment and betrayal will help you be more solid for your kids

-------

I just read the original post - some more thoughts:

Consider thinking outside the box in terms of employment - as a Dr. you could probably find work at home for an insurance or drug company or even teaching. Would working from home make things easier on the kids? I'm sure those aren't directions you would have chosen for your career but working from home may be a good choice for a few years

Feel free to message me off-list if you'd like: bjontry@...

Brie