belinda.dutch@...

HI,


I wrote recently about my daughter's passion - horses.  I wrote that I was conflicted about who's responsibility the pony is if we take one on, and what to do if I meet my daughter's deepest wish (buy her a pony) and find she isn't up to meeting the responsibility it entails?


I had a couple of helpful replies about good types of pony to look for and tips for buying/keeping them, which were great, but I feel the core of my dilemma has maybe been missed or i wasn't stating it clearly enough.


So I will try again, with greater clarity i hope.


As an unschooling parent I understand the importance of getting involved (where my involvement is wanted), supporting and taking an interest in my children's interests and passions.  And for that matter my husband's! This is fairly straightforward, natural and fun for me - I love to chat to my son about the indie game scene, fund his games,  I polish my husband's trophies (annoyingly big and antique silver) and lend him my car for distant competitions... (more of a sacrifice than it sounds as his car is an antique land rover and needs to be started with a crank handle...!).  So, supporting these interests is easy and natural and fun to me and doesn't require me to make huge and possibly long term investments in personal time and money.


My daughter's horse riding, however, is different and is puzzling me. I have been getting more involved as she now has a loan pony 3 days a week in the yard which is next door to our field.  She is 12 and a little anxious by nature and wants me to be with her when she is at the yard so I have started to learn about tacking, grooming, and caring for the pony.  I am now quite fond of the pony, and am starting to understand her passion.  She has been riding on and off doing lessons and hacks with other people since she was 3 but having her own responsibility is new.


Her dream, and it's a passionate one, is to own her OWN pony or small horse.  She doesn't really think her loan is the right horse for her (it isn't, really).  When I talk about loaning another, better, pony, however long term and full time the loan is, she is SO upset, and says I don't understand, that owning the pony is totally different.


Actually, I DO understand that.  I understand it from her point of view (emotional) and also my point of view (practical, financial AND emotional!). I want her life to feel joyful and abundant (buy her a pony).  I also see huge changes ahead in the next few years of her life that she of course can't see and I don't want her pony to feel like a millstone around her neck (loan her a pony). 


The fundamental question I am asking is, i suppose, if we buy one, is: who's responsibility is the horse? How much responsibility should a child be made to bear?  Should there be any comeback if she doesn't feel like caring for her horse that day? should I just joyfully do it for her?  Am I effectively buying myself a horse that I would be happy to share responsibility for with my daughter?  Conventional parenting would say that she asked for it, she should bear responsibility and there should be 'consequences' for not meeting those responsibilities.  But my understanding of unschooling is that we support our children through different moods, phases, with understanding and not judgement. Unfortunately a pony needs caring for through all those possible moods and phases and I see a potential battleground ahead as if i'm really honest with myself I don't think I can see myself being joyful about 'doing her job for her' unless she was ill or something - i think it would be hard for me not to feel like 'she should be doing this'.  Of course it may be that she is brilliantly committed and these fears never come to pass but I think I need to ask myself the 'what-ifs'? It's such a big commitment, it's not like a normal hobby where she can just drop the classes.


I'm not really looking for help here on how to buy a pony for her.  I have lots of people I can talk to about that now as i get more involved in the 'scene'. What I am looking for is help with the concept of 'responsibility' and commitment in an unschooling context.  How can we take on this lifestyle changing commitment while keeping it joyful?  Should we be doing it at all?  Or am I overthinking this and we should just go for it and work it out as we go along - all part of the learning?


Just to be clear, we can afford to do it, but not without thought and care, so whilst happy to find the money if it is making lives better and more joyful, would not make sense for us as family paying long term expenses (e.g. paying for livery) if the horse was not being ridden and/or loved as we would have to make sacrifices in other areas.


Belinda






 



vardenroad@...

--The fundamental question I am asking is, i suppose, if we buy one, is: who's responsibility is the horse? How much responsibility should a child be made to bear?  Should there be any comeback if she doesn't feel like caring for her horse that day? should I just joyfully do it for her?  Am I effectively buying myself a horse that I would be happy to share responsibility for with my daughter?  Conventional parenting would say that she asked for it, she should bear responsibility and there should be 'consequences' for not meeting those responsibilities.  But my understanding of unschooling is that we support our children through different moods, phases, with understanding and not judgement. Unfortunately a pony needs caring for through all those possible moods and phases and I see a potential battleground ahead as if i'm really honest with myself I don't think I can see myself being joyful about 'doing her job for her' unless she was ill or something - i think it would be hard for me not to feel like 'she should be doing this'.  Of course it may be that she is brilliantly committed and these fears never come to pass but I think I need to ask myself the 'what-ifs'? It's such a big commitment, it's not like a normal hobby where she can just drop the classes.--


I'd start by doing some work on how you think about responsibility. If you remember that unschooling involves being part of a team with your daughter, being partners together, that may help you to start seeing the question of responsibility differently. How much responsibility did you give your children when it came to learning about other things? Walking as babies, crossing the road safely, riding a bike? Eating without spilling food. These are all things that children learn with our support and help, but they can not be responsible until they are ready. Your daughter, at 12, will need your support. If you buy a pony for her, it will be hers, but you will shoulder the responsibility for it in any way that she can't. She will learn about responsibility by seeing you being responsible and with her growing maturity. Don't make her be responsible. she won't learn anything positive from that. Comeback is a form of punishment, and in terms of unschooling, is not a helpful way for her to learn. She will work out the consequences of not doing the caring for the pony in her own time without the need for comeback. She will learn all kinds of things from having a pony, but they may not be the things you expect. Be prepared for that! If necessary you should be prepared to do all the pony care, just like you would do all her laundry or buy her clothes or prepare her delicious meals. There's a section on Sandra's site which includes the quote "Be the very very best friend to them you can possibly be." (Link below). 


My children haven't asked for a pony, but i do spend a lot of my time driving them to classes and to see friends and arranging sleepovers. How is that different from looking after a pony? It is a question of choice. As an unschooling parent i have chosen to support my children's interests, whatever they are. Have you asked yourself why you have thought 'I'd be doing her job for her' running through your head? Who ever told you that? These are not questions to answer here, but to think about yourself.


Partners, not Adversaries


Celeste Burke

-= As an unschooling parent I understand the importance of getting involved (where my involvement is wanted), supporting and taking an interest in my children's interests and passions.  And for that matter my husband's! This is fairly straightforward, natural and fun for me - I love to chat to my son about the indie game scene, fund his games,  I polish my husband's trophies (annoyingly big and antique silver) and lend him my car for distant competitions... (more of a sacrifice than it sounds as his car is an antique land rover and needs to be started with a crank handle...!).  So, supporting these interests is easy and natural and fun to me and doesn't require me to make huge and possibly long term investments in personal time and money. =-

When you polish your husband’s trophies, are you thinking “This is annoying!”? When you lend your car do you have that in your back pocket to throw back when you feel short changed “I sacrificed my car so you can go to competitions!”?

You don’t have to answer me. And this may not be what you’re thinking at all. You did mention that supporting interests is “easy and natural and fun” but when you talked about how you support those interests you used “annoying” and “sacrifice.” It doesn’t match up.

This link might help: http://sandradodd.com/service

A quote from the middle of the page that I find very helpful:
=======
(someone had written:)
-=-Not that long ago, he even claimed he preferred wearing dirty socks (when we pointed out that if he just tossed them under the rubble they wouldn't get clean...)
----------------

Schuyler wrote:
-=-I might prefer wearing dirty socks to having my stuff referred to as rubble. It helps, it really, really helps to find joy in the things your children do. -=-
=======

On this page there is a bit about responsibility at the bottom: http://sandradodd.com/chores/scream


-= if the horse was not being ridden and/or loved =-

Who determines how much “love” is enough to justify buying the horse? If you did buy the horse and it was only ridden once, is that enough? 
This might also help: http://sandradodd.com/pressure

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 11:39 AM belinda.dutch@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

HI,


I wrote recently about my daughter's passion - horses.  I wrote that I was conflicted about who's responsibility the pony is if we take one on, and what to do if I meet my daughter's deepest wish (buy her a pony) and find she isn't up to meeting the responsibility it entails?


I had a couple of helpful replies about good types of pony to look for and tips for buying/keeping them, which were great, but I feel the core of my dilemma has maybe been missed or i wasn't stating it clearly enough.


So I will try again, with greater clarity i hope.


As an unschooling parent I understand the importance of getting involved (where my involvement is wanted), supporting and taking an interest in my children's interests and passions.  And for that matter my husband's! This is fairly straightforward, natural and fun for me - I love to chat to my son about the indie game scene, fund his games,  I polish my husband's trophies (annoyingly big and antique silver) and lend him my car for distant competitions... (more of a sacrifice than it sounds as his car is an antique land rover and needs to be started with a crank handle...!).  So, supporting these interests is easy and natural and fun to me and doesn't require me to make huge and possibly long term investments in personal time and money.


My daughter's horse riding, however, is different and is puzzling me. I have been getting more involved as she now has a loan pony 3 days a week in the yard which is next door to our field.  She is 12 and a little anxious by nature and wants me to be with her when she is at the yard so I have started to learn about tacking, grooming, and caring for the pony.  I am now quite fond of the pony, and am starting to understand her passion.  She has been riding on and off doing lessons and hacks with other people since she was 3 but having her own responsibility is new.


Her dream, and it's a passionate one, is to own her OWN pony or small horse.  She doesn't really think her loan is the right horse for her (it isn't, really).  When I talk about loaning another, better, pony, however long term and full time the loan is, she is SO upset, and says I don't understand, that owning the pony is totally different.


Actually, I DO understand that.  I understand it from her point of view (emotional) and also my point of view (practical, financial AND emotional!). I want her life to feel joyful and abundant (buy her a pony).  I also see huge changes ahead in the next few years of her life that she of course can't see and I don't want her pony to feel like a millstone around her neck (loan her a pony). 


The fundamental question I am asking is, i suppose, if we buy one, is: who's responsibility is the horse? How much responsibility should a child be made to bear?  Should there be any comeback if she doesn't feel like caring for her horse that day? should I just joyfully do it for her?  Am I effectively buying myself a horse that I would be happy to share responsibility for with my daughter?  Conventional parenting would say that she asked for it, she should bear responsibility and there should be 'consequences' for not meeting those responsibilities.  But my understanding of unschooling is that we support our children through different moods, phases, with understanding and not judgement. Unfortunately a pony needs caring for through all those possible moods and phases and I see a potential battleground ahead as if i'm really honest with myself I don't think I can see myself being joyful about 'doing her job for her' unless she was ill or something - i think it would be hard for me not to feel like 'she should be doing this'.  Of course it may be that she is brilliantly committed and these fears never come to pass but I think I need to ask myself the 'what-ifs'? It's such a big commitment, it's not like a normal hobby where she can just drop the classes.


I'm not really looking for help here on how to buy a pony for her.  I have lots of people I can talk to about that now as i get more involved in the 'scene'. What I am looking for is help with the concept of 'responsibility' and commitment in an unschooling context.  How can we take on this lifestyle changing commitment while keeping it joyful?  Should we be doing it at all?  Or am I overthinking this and we should just go for it and work it out as we go along - all part of the learning?


Just to be clear, we can afford to do it, but not without thought and care, so whilst happy to find the money if it is making lives better and more joyful, would not make sense for us as family paying long term expenses (e.g. paying for livery) if the horse was not being ridden and/or loved as we would have to make sacrifices in other areas.


Belinda






 



Sandra Dodd

These questions used to come up quite a bit, but I can’t find a place where responses were saved. Joyce, please help! Or if someone remembers a good one, on UnschoolingDiscussion or AlwaysLearning, I’d be willing to go and mine it and save it for this time and next time. :-)

-=-The fundamental question I am asking is, i suppose, if we buy one, is: who's responsibility is the horse?-=-

A child isn’t old enough to sign a contract. Why?

This is from a tutorial for judges in New Mexico. (I know very few people here are in New Mexico, but that’s what’s at hand for me.)
"A contract between a minor and an adult may be cancelled upon request of the minor, but is binding on the adult. The test for mental capacity to enter into a contract is whether the person had the ability to understand the nature and consequences of the agreement.”

In a partnership between an unschooling parent and child, the parent is the one who know the most, usually (thought that balance will start to tip in particulars fairly early, and at some point (I think I’m reaching it) maybe in MOST areas. Still… Blaming a child for failure of an agreement seems quite wrong.

-=-How much responsibility should a child be made to bear? -=-

“Made to”? By what means? “Making” someone do that comes under control, as to principles and ideas we have discussed at length over the years in this and similar discussions.
http://sandradodd.com/control
That has some serious ideas and leads to other links. Please do go there and think about the questions in that light.

-=-Should there be any comeback if she doesn't feel like caring for her horse that day? -=-

Like what?
You don’t need to answer these questions here, but for yourself, what options are in your imagination there?
Letting the horse go hungry is probably illegal, and that falls not on any child, but on the property owner / tenant.

It’s not a horse, but Holly had pet rats when she was 12, and thereabout. She paid a lot of attention to them, and fed them, but cleaning and rearranging the cage was overwhelming, so we did that together. Occasionally I did it by myself. I thought of it as a service to Holly—as though I was creating a play environment for Holly.

Every few weeks I’d go to a thrift store (with Holly, or not) and look for baskets and toys the rats would like to get into. I could tell lots more, but it turned out to be fun for me, fun for the rats, Holly helped a lot but didn’t do it all. We learned a lot together, about rats, and about engineering with woodel dowels, pipe cleaners, wire racks and woven placemats. :-)

-=-i think it would be hard for me not to feel like 'she should be doing this’.-=-

It’s hard for anyone to overcome their childhood conditioning, but it’s a necessary part of becoming a good unschooling parent.

Two other links, but this is a LOT of reading, so please read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch. It’s too much to process all at once, but it’s too important to ignore.
http://sandradodd.com/chores/gift
http://sandradodd.com/service


Sandra

Sarah Thompson

My impression from horsey families I know is that, if a member of the family has a horse hobby, the whole family has a horse hobby. So yes, it seems like you would want to be prepared to be a pony caregiver.

There were times when I would say to my kids, or to myself, "this is your project, and I'm not responsible for it if you don't follow through." It felt *bad*, immediately. I felt like I was setting them up to fail, setting me up to be angry and disappointed, and setting us all up to be in opposition. It feels much better to fully embrace the responsibility of being the saucer under the teacup of their pursuits.

If there's something I *know* I can't handle at the moment for some reason, we try to find a way to do it where there is another adult responsible (we can't get animals right now, so we try to find other people with animals).

Sarah

Sam

Hi there,

From the way you are writing, it seems like if you bought the horse you would be bound forever? If your daughter loses interest in a few months or years, couldn't you loan the horse out or sell it? That's what a lot of people do, I believe.

But yes you've got to be sure You want to be responsible for the horse first, otherwise it will be a negative experience for you all.

My daughters have cats, giant snails and rabbits. I look after them. But I chose to get them because I know I'm happy to do it. 

My oldest daughter is 9 and would love a snake (she changes her mind often though!) 
Although I'm an animal lover, I don't feel comfortable with reptiles at the moment. I have a toddler, 2 older girls and 5 animals already. I think caring for a snake along side would be too much for me right now. I worry about snake/toddler issues and would rather wait til the youngest is older. 

So I've said definitely yes one day but not right now. My daughter is happy with this for now and agrees, as she knows from our experiences having kittens that our 2 year old has found it challenging. We've discussed it at length. 

But my children are younger and not ready to help out with animal care much, yet.

Have you discussed it with your daughter? Is she happy to do some of the care? Make it a joint project?
 I would discuss with her the ifs and maybes of day to day responsibilities, as well as options for down the line as she gets older, or if she loses interest. Be honest and realistic.

Only you know how much it means to her, or if she could cope with some of the responsibility with your constant help and encouragement.

Only you know if You could cope well with the responsibility, without resentment or shaming her, should she be unable to follow through or if she decides it's actually not for her.

If I felt I could do it, and we had the money, I would definitely give her the opportunity. But I love horses and was the little girl who desperately wanted a horse! 
But I don't think at 12 I could have committed to looking after one day and night without a Very supportive mother! But some kids do!

I had a friend who had a horse from 12. She was very passionate and had always wanted one. Her mum drove her there every day and night throughout our teenage years and generally had to chivvy her there as she was reluctant! She mostly did it though, but it was completely down to her mums commitment! 
She kept the horse until it was into old age and is now a vet. Her mum was very committed!

Perhaps your daughter will lose interest in time, as it would be very hard work. Perhaps not. 
Perhaps you will have a great time together and bond and learn lots!

All Things to discuss and consider.

But no, don't do it unless you are prepared for it to be your job (should that be necessary) and you are happy to help your daughter to have a horse, whatever that may entail,  lovingly and joyfully. 

Sam :)  

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 Nov 2015, at 16:38, belinda.dutch@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

HI,


I wrote recently about my daughter's passion - horses.  I wrote that I was conflicted about who's responsibility the pony is if we take one on, and what to do if I meet my daughter's deepest wish (buy her a pony) and find she isn't up to meeting the responsibility it entails?


I had a couple of helpful replies about good types of pony to look for and tips for buying/keeping them, which were great, but I feel the core of my dilemma has maybe been missed or i wasn't stating it clearly enough.


So I will try again, with greater clarity i hope.


As an unschooling parent I understand the importance of getting involved (where my involvement is wanted), supporting and taking an interest in my children's interests and passions.  And for that matter my husband's! This is fairly straightforward, natural and fun for me - I love to chat to my son about the indie game scene, fund his games,  I polish my husband's trophies (annoyingly big and antique silver) and lend him my car for distant competitions... (more of a sacrifice than it sounds as his car is an antique land rover and needs to be started with a crank handle...!).  So, supporting these interests is easy and natural and fun to me and doesn't require me to make huge and possibly long term investments in personal time and money.


My daughter's horse riding, however, is different and is puzzling me. I have been getting more involved as she now has a loan pony 3 days a week in the yard which is next door to our field.  She is 12 and a little anxious by nature and wants me to be with her when she is at the yard so I have started to learn about tacking, grooming, and caring for the pony.  I am now quite fond of the pony, and am starting to understand her passion.  She has been riding on and off doing lessons and hacks with other people since she was 3 but having her own responsibility is new.


Her dream, and it's a passionate one, is to own her OWN pony or small horse.  She doesn't really think her loan is the right horse for her (it isn't, really).  When I talk about loaning another, better, pony, however long term and full time the loan is, she is SO upset, and says I don't understand, that owning the pony is totally different.


Actually, I DO understand that.  I understand it from her point of view (emotional) and also my point of view (practical, financial AND emotional!). I want her life to feel joyful and abundant (buy her a pony).  I also see huge changes ahead in the next few years of her life that she of course can't see and I don't want her pony to feel like a millstone around her neck (loan her a pony). 


The fundamental question I am asking is, i suppose, if we buy one, is: who's responsibility is the horse? How much responsibility should a child be made to bear?  Should there be any comeback if she doesn't feel like caring for her horse that day? should I just joyfully do it for her?  Am I effectively buying myself a horse that I would be happy to share responsibility for with my daughter?  Conventional parenting would say that she asked for it, she should bear responsibility and there should be 'consequences' for not meeting those responsibilities.  But my understanding of unschooling is that we support our children through different moods, phases, with understanding and not judgement. Unfortunately a pony needs caring for through all those possible moods and phases and I see a potential battleground ahead as if i'm really honest with myself I don't think I can see myself being joyful about 'doing her job for her' unless she was ill or something - i think it would be hard for me not to feel like 'she should be doing this'.  Of course it may be that she is brilliantly committed and these fears never come to pass but I think I need to ask myself the 'what-ifs'? It's such a big commitment, it's not like a normal hobby where she can just drop the classes.


I'm not really looking for help here on how to buy a pony for her.  I have lots of people I can talk to about that now as i get more involved in the 'scene'. What I am looking for is help with the concept of 'responsibility' and commitment in an unschooling context.  How can we take on this lifestyle changing commitment while keeping it joyful?  Should we be doing it at all?  Or am I overthinking this and we should just go for it and work it out as we go along - all part of the learning?


Just to be clear, we can afford to do it, but not without thought and care, so whilst happy to find the money if it is making lives better and more joyful, would not make sense for us as family paying long term expenses (e.g. paying for livery) if the horse was not being ridden and/or loved as we would have to make sacrifices in other areas.


Belinda






 



K Pennell

My husband and I came to the conclusion years ago that if you get an animal for your child, YOU are responsible for caring for it. Yes, they can help, but they may not have the maturity, desire, or ability to do it all themselves for a long time.

One question is: you mentioned sacrifices if you buy your daughter a horse. Who is making those sacrifices? If everyone in the family would be sacrificing, how does your son feel about that? What would he be sacrificing? What would your daughter be sacrificing? How does she feel about that?

I would also point out that if your daughter loses interest, you could find a new home for the horse. My sister-in-law has three horses. She hasn't ever bought them, she takes in horses that owners no longer want (or former race horses). So there are people who would give the horse a good home if need be.

From: "belinda.dutch@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:38 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] responsibilities - how much is too much?








 






Robin Wheatley

Hello - I have not posted here before, mostly because I am not very far along this unschooling path and have been reading and thinking and don't feel I have much insight.

 I do have a little experience with horses, however.  I live in the U.S., and there is a problem here with people who are no longer willing or able to take care of their horses finding a place for them.  The kids and I spent some time volunteering at a horse rescue, and it was sad to hear the stories of horses that had been mistreated or abandoned.  The director of the rescue was constantly receiving memos about more horses who were about to lose their homes, but she had run out of room so she was unable to take more.  A horse can live up to 40 years, so it really can be a long-term commitment. 

I don't say this to dissuade you from buying one, as they are wonderful animals, but in this case you are making a commitment to another living thing to provide and care for them.  As you've seen with your daughter's experience, horses have distinct personalities, which is why someone can get along well with one horse and not another.  They form a bond with the person who cares for them.  It's not like buying a motorcycle that you can leave sitting in the garage if you decide you don't like to ride it.

Again, I don't mean to dissuade you - I would buy a horse myself if I could afford it.  I hope that this helps you to make a decision you will be happy with!

Mira Hatland

My daughter fell in love with horses since she was 3. She is now 12 has gone through s)five horses ( loans, trying out a few, selling the wrong one or buying some at an auction), and just lost her most passionate and favorite one of them all. He was like a family member. In our family we felt her passion and supported it whole heartedly. My husband mostly, was her partner in this. They would ride for hours, muck together and take trips. It was incredible bonding experience for both of them. and all of the learning and responsibilities were worth all of the cost and time. 


At times of course it was too much especially in winter, & we ended up doing a lot of the work because my daughter didn't feel too. And of course arguments happened, talks about responsibility of an animal and their health and many other lessons . But it was her passion and in an unschooling prospective we would have never given up a moment of it. 


Many people said, "why didn't you let her work for it?" But the lessons were not about that. It was about having her experience for passion and it was well worth every argument and every amazing ride that she took with her dad. Now that she's older, and we don't have horses, her dad and her are looking for a replacement activity and it is very difficult to replace. The horses became her life. 


Shes now beginning to look for another soul mate horse. She has expressed to us that the horse gave her alone time, a place to vent, an unconditional love that was always there. It is amazing to hear what it gave her all her life, now that she can express herself. We are all looking at if it's worth having another one, because now she knows the cost, the work involved and the love that goes into having a huge animal and friend. No matter if we get another horse or not, she knows for the rest of her life what it's about and she'll be able to choose whether she can take on a responsibility like that again. It was one of those dreams that I'm so glad I gave her and never look back.


Mira


Ann Hedly Rousseau

Thank you, Belinda, for posting again. I had written a very long response to your question and then doubted myself and never sent it, then lost it as a draft. I responded about my own issues around deschooling the concepts of responsibility and commitment.

I start first with our experience: This fall, myself and my three sons have been participating in a local homeschool cooperative. The older two boys this summer had asked about meeting other homeschoolers and I suggested this might be a way of spending time with some that we already know but don’t spend a lot of time with, and meeting new homeschoolers. They were hesitant and I can tell you why, I think.

About 5 years ago I took over our local library’s story hour for the year. Because it was a commitment on my part I wasn’t allowing them a choice whether they wanted to go or not. It was simply something that our family did, because I was responsible for it happening, and I had made a commitment. We had many stressful getting-it-together mornings where I was running around the house preparing for the story, craft and snack and trying to get my children ready to go on time. It didn’t feel good. After that year, I knew I never wanted to host story hour again. It was too much, but I didn’t quite understand why.

So I hosted a homeschool day at the library because I thought it would be slightly different and a little more fun, but it was still stressful to me and my boys. I felt that I wasn’t able to truly decide if I wanted to go or not because I had the keys and if I didn’t show up I would be disappointing everyone else. After another year of that, I knew I didn’t want to host the library homeschool group again. I wasn’t asking the boys if they wanted to go or not, it was just “time for story hour” or “time for homeschool group”. They didn’t outright object, but it wasn’t something they were super excited about either. It had become a sort of family habit where I suggest an activity and we do it and they kind of moan about it sometimes when we are there. I believed we were doing some of these activities because they were enriching. I don’t see it that way now, but I did then. And there were truly fun moments, but the over-arching sense was not about choice, but about a commitment made once and my responsibility to that commitment. I was exuding that sense to my children without saying anything. Additionally, I believed that the stress of getting ready to go and going anyway despite our not feeling it would just wash off; that once the stressful moment was over that the stress was inconsequential and done (rather than cumulative).

So fast forward to this fall and deciding as a family if we wanted to participate in this homeschool cooperative. I told our boys that I know in the past I had pushed them to get to story hour and homeschool group and this time I wanted them to decide. So we went the first time and it was sort of fun and they wanted to go back, but there was hesitation and I really couldn’t understand it. Then about 3 weeks in, my mother happened to be visiting and I was re-experiencing the getting-ready stress of being to a commitment on-time and feeling angry at my children because they were slow and not getting ready to go on my time schedule. My mother said to me “I hate to see you getting yourself so worked up. You seem to be the only one that wants to go.” I initially thought 'you are not helping me get these boys in the car and on our way and I don’t have time for this observation'. But I did think about it for the next many days that it looked like I was the only one who wanted to go.

The following week I had a peaceful morning and my mother’s observation was keen in my mind. I felt good and rested and somehow the thought entered my mind that I don’t need to want to be there any more than my children want to be there. For my habitual mind, this is revolutionary thinking. I think that I believed that I was modeling something about being on time and being where you say you will be; but really I was very clearly modeling being stressed over getting somewhere that I don’t really want to be. Around this same time I saw the “Notes Home” from the local village school which was posted at the library. On the back page there was a sort of advertisement with bullet marks having to do with attendance. The website is www.attendanceworks.org if you are curious to see; basically it is a sort of propaganda around school attendance. Well, in reading that something really clicked for me and I realized that here was another area in which I needed to deschool. I hadn’t before considered that my belief around commitment and showing up and what it means to be a good citizen could be tied together in a part of how I was schooled. And probably more importantly, that I was unconsciously spreading those thoughts and ideas to my own children.

I’ve been actively deschooling for 4 years so it’s not that I’m super new at this, I just hadn’t encountered it like this. I thought I had addressed commitment when I would support them to drop classes that they wanted to try then didn’t want to continue or other activities that they wanted to start and stop. It came up for me when I was partnering in the commitments further than driving them to it and paying for it. (The homeschool coop requires parent participation).

So that easy sweet morning I had this idea that I could be all ready to go and make sure that I had everything we would need for our day at homeschool coop, like food and supplies. This was not stressful to me. Then a good while before the time that we would need to leave I told each child that we would need to leave at x time in order to get there on time. I would be in the car at that time and I would wait an additional 10 minutes, then if no one was there with me, I’d just get out and we’d stay home that day. This may sound harsh, but what it did was give the opportunity to them to choose to go that day. You’ll have to trust me that I didn’t have underlying intentions of going and that I was threatening them, I really didn’t care if we went or not. They are more used to me being the one to want to go or at least that I seem like I want to go. It was more of an experiment for me to see if I could relax and follow the lead of my children. I needed to be ready in the car because I needed to take my getting ready stress out of the equation. Turns out they wanted to go this time. I noticed that my oldest who often will turn to me and say “why are we here?” or “when are we leaving?” didn’t say that this day, and he enjoyed himself more. Maybe a coincidence, and this is a new pattern for me, but it feels better. I now feel that they need the opportunity to decide each time whether to go or not, whereas I had been unconsciously holding them to the commitment of a whole session when I was involved.

And this finally brings me back round to your post, Belinda, that perhaps there are issues around commitment and responsibility that you could look at differently, too.

Also, and it has been mentioned, I was thinking it could be helpful to think of these ponies as if they were individuals like people and that if your daughter found herself in a relationship with another person where she said 'I will be your best friend', or 'I will go out with you', how binding should that commitment be? And if she realizes that she isn’t getting along with this person like she had anticipated or hoped what is her responsibility? To her feelings or to the other person? And what is the ratio of responsibility to self vs. others? It’s easy to imagine talking to her about how there are so many many people in the world and it’s okay to change your mind about who is your best friend and who you date. Especially if there isn’t the connection that is hoped for. To her, this pony is an individual, not an idea about a pony, or a generic pony, but a real living breathing individual that she will have a relationship with and one pony may be completely different in personality than another. She may be able to relax her stance about owning a pony if she feels you relax in how you are supporting her to understand responsibility and commitment.

Hope this helps a little, it sure has helped me to think about and write it all out.
Ann

belinda.dutch@...

Thank you everyone for your replies on this topic.

Funny how the simplest, purest set of ideas (which essentially I see unschooling as), can be so evasive and difficult to pin down in the thick of things.  I think I was hoping for some sort of 'special case' to apply here, to our horsey dilemmas, and yet of course the answers are already there in all the unschooling reading and thinking I have already done.  I knew them really but was to afraid to see them, so thank you everyone for making it clear that yes, IF we take on a horse it is MY responsibility, and my responsibility to do this joyfully, as an adventure, together, without expectation or pressure, but with discussion and conversation and realistic expectations.


There was a question put by Sandra which I initially thought was kind of daft, (sorry!), but when I started to think how I would answer it, i realised that it actually got right to the nub of the problem:

  --"Who determines how much “love” is enough to justify buying the horse? If you did buy the horse and it was only ridden once, is that enough? "--

"Well, of course not!  How silly." I thought to myself!  But that got me thinking...  When my son wanted a remote control tank, a few years ago, he REALLY really wanted it. He asked everyone to give him money for his birthday instead of a gift and he eventually had enough to buy his tank.  He was so proud and loved it so much, and played with it..... for about a day.  And then it went up on his shelf and has never really been played with again.  I asked him about it a while later and he said he just liked having it.  He didn't want to sell it, he was happy that he managed to get it, loved the feeling of having it, and liked looking at it.  And that is totally fine because THE TANK DOESN'T CARE!!!!  In this case, once WAS enough, and once was joyful.

And so the nub of the dilemma that is that a horse really DOES care, and I care, and I could never have an animal that wasn't fully, brilliantly cared for.  I think that is why I am generally reluctant to have animals, because I take them on quite heavily.  (My reluctance has obviously been won round many times in our family so far!).  

I have learned this with the guinea pigs, the gerbils, the chickens, the hamster and the dog.  They have ALL, to various degrees, ended up falling to me to clean and walk etc.  But they are/were small, fun and relatively easy and the dog is, i will admit, a great asset to all the family.  I think when it comes down to it I am simply a bit overwhelmed by the idea of the pony, the amount of time I will have to spend ankle deep in mud in the winter, etc. So different to cleaning a gerbil cage! My husband really doesn't have much time to give to this, although he would love to, and my son has never even been to the yard, so it's really down to me.  This is why I'm having to think so carefully about it.  My daughter is the one in the family who asks for things directly and vocally and sometimes dramatically, which is refreshingly clear, but I still want to be available and supportive to those in the family who's needs for support are maybe quieter but no less necessary. (husband, son, mother, sister, niece, dog!).

One of the other things that struck me from one of the posts which I can't seem to find now so unfortunately can't quote, was that while we would undoubtedly learn an amazing amount from having a horse in the family, we cannot predict WHAT is learned.  It might really not be what we expect.  I can't really set out with an agenda, it has to be embarked upon with an open mind and heart.

So I have decided to - guess what - read a little, wait a while, and watch. Chat with her about horse breeds (Morgan is current fave!) and watch videos with her.  Learn as much as I can.  Not test her and judge her willingness to go out in the rain, but help her with the rug and tack when she does.  By watching her and sharing her interest I am building a picture of what SHE wants, and so of course we are already learning and travelling down the road of this project.   I wonder if I am thinking I have to pick up and run ahead, be the adult, with a big scary project, and that if I do this she would then feel out of touch with it, and it would no longer feel like hers.  I am taking my time with this one, and I think something will present itself and feel right at some point in the near future.



 

Sandra Dodd

Correction!!!
__________
-=-There was a question put by Sandra which I initially thought was kind of daft, (sorry!), but when I started to think how I would answer it, i realised that it actually got right to the nub of the problem:

--"Who determines how much “love” is enough to justify buying the horse? If you did buy the horse and it was only ridden once, is that enough? "—
_____________

Celeste Burke asked that question. She didn’t put her name at the end of her post, and had a link with my name, at the end of the post :-)

Maybe you thought it was me because it seemed daft. :-)
But I totally understood the question when I saw it the first time. You wanted to measure unmeasurable things, it seemed.

-=- I am taking my time with this one, and I think something will present itself and feel right at some point in the near future.-=-

Very nice.
I’m glad the posts were helping you more than frustrating you. :-)

Sandra

Alex & Brian Polikowsky

When my daughter was three years old and really wanted a horse a family friend gave her a pony his kids had outgrown.

It was an old sad pony but very sweet and my daughter loved it.
Of course I was the one who was going to care for it.
Here is my blog post about it, it was a question but we had already decided after seeing her face that the pony was coming home.


The pony lived for a few years ( she was about 30) and I cared for her everyday. I absolutely loved caring for her and it gave me a lot of joy. One winter I was specially  feeling the winter blues But what did not let me get all the way down was going over to care for the pony twice a day and get to walk and move. 

I loved how the pony went from sad to beautiful and how she loved my daughter! I took care and fed her but she still loved my daughter more than me. Followed her around and was so sweet to her!

Here is her transformation:


 And here is when we lost Honey.

I still think about her and miss her ! She "talked" a lot to me ! She was a very cool girl and a great company. 


Every time I opens my mind and heart to something my kids loved or we're passionate about, or just enjoyed , I learned more about my kids and my life, and theirs , became richer.

I learned along with them. I could see how much learning is in a video game , I learned about the Middle Ages, I learned about cows,...

Not only supporting but embracing those interests is what makes unschooling wonderful. Learning right along your children and sharing their joy. I did not need to become a video gamer or show cows to do any of that! All you need is willingness to be open and learn along with them, supporting them and taking those interests seriously because your children value them you do too.

Alex Polikowsky


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2015, at 5:45 PM, belinda.dutch@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Thank you everyone for your replies on this topic.


Funny how the simplest, purest set of ideas (which essentially I see unschooling as), can be so evasive and difficult to pin down in the thick of things.  I think I was hoping for some sort of 'special case' to apply here, to our horsey dilemmas, and yet of course the answers are already there in all the unschooling reading and thinking I have already done.  I knew them really but was to afraid to see them, so thank you everyone for making it clear that yes, IF we take on a horse it is MY responsibility, and my responsibility to do this joyfully, as an adventure, together, without expectation or pressure, but with discussion and conversation and realistic expectations.


There was a question put by Sandra which I initially thought was kind of daft, (sorry!), but when I started to think how I would answer it, i realised that it actually got right to the nub of the problem:

  --"Who determines how much “love” is enough to justify buying the horse? If you did buy the horse and it was only ridden once, is that enough? "--

"Well, of course not!  How silly." I thought to myself!  But that got me thinking...  When my son wanted a remote control tank, a few years ago, he REALLY really wanted it. He asked everyone to give him money for his birthday instead of a gift and he eventually had enough to buy his tank.  He was so proud and loved it so much, and played with it..... for about a day.  And then it went up on his shelf and has never really been played with again.  I asked him about it a while later and he said he just liked having it.  He didn't want to sell it, he was happy that he managed to get it, loved the feeling of having it, and liked looking at it.  And that is totally fine because THE TANK DOESN'T CARE!!!!  In this case, once WAS enough, and once was joyful.

And so the nub of the dilemma that is that a horse really DOES care, and I care, and I could never have an animal that wasn't fully, brilliantly cared for.  I think that is why I am generally reluctant to have animals, because I take them on quite heavily.  (My reluctance has obviously been won round many times in our family so far!).  

I have learned this with the guinea pigs, the gerbils, the chickens, the hamster and the dog.  They have ALL, to various degrees, ended up falling to me to clean and walk etc.  But they are/were small, fun and relatively easy and the dog is, i will admit, a great asset to all the family.  I think when it comes down to it I am simply a bit overwhelmed by the idea of the pony, the amount of time I will have to spend ankle deep in mud in the winter, etc. So different to cleaning a gerbil cage! My husband really doesn't have much time to give to this, although he would love to, and my son has never even been to the yard, so it's really down to me.  This is why I'm having to think so carefully about it.  My daughter is the one in the family who asks for things directly and vocally and sometimes dramatically, which is refreshingly clear, but I still want to be available and supportive to those in the family who's needs for support are maybe quieter but no less necessary. (husband, son, mother, sister, niece, dog!).

One of the other things that struck me from one of the posts which I can't seem to find now so unfortunately can't quote, was that while we would undoubtedly learn an amazing amount from having a horse in the family, we cannot predict WHAT is learned.  It might really not be what we expect.  I can't really set out with an agenda, it has to be embarked upon with an open mind and heart.

So I have decided to - guess what - read a little, wait a while, and watch. Chat with her about horse breeds (Morgan is current fave!) and watch videos with her.  Learn as much as I can.  Not test her and judge her willingness to go out in the rain, but help her with the rug and tack when she does.  By watching her and sharing her interest I am building a picture of what SHE wants, and so of course we are already learning and travelling down the road of this project.   I wonder if I am thinking I have to pick up and run ahead, be the adult, with a big scary project, and that if I do this she would then feel out of touch with it, and it would no longer feel like hers.  I am taking my time with this one, and I think something will present itself and feel right at some point in the near future.