Sandra Dodd

This is the last of that series of questions. I think I will be blunt.
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Stimming

My daughter with CP has some stimming behaviors when it comes to her ipad. She will play with it until the battery dies, which I have no problem with except that she persistently presses pause, play, pause, play over and over again. She screeches and tenses her body up as she's doing it as well. We've taken away the apps she does this with, but will find some other way to get her "fix" on another app. She cannot help herself and she will do it until the battery dies and then have a fit because the battery died. I know she's doing it for some kind of sensory input. Since she cant verbalize to me why she's doing this, I can't give her what she needs. I dont see stimming as something she's learning from, I believe she's doing it because she's lacking and in need of something. Does anyone have experience with this?
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I don't know what "stimming" is. I know I could google it, but I don't think I care what it is.

I'm guessing "stimming" is a professional term used to shame and control children who are behaving as normal humans. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

-=-She will play with it until the battery dies-=-

I've done that twice in the past few weeks.
But I'm not just "playing with it." I'm playing games, looking things up, watching videos, listening to music.
I'm USING the iPad.
I bet the daughter in the question is, too.

-=-She will play with it until the battery dies, which I have no problem with except -=-

"I have no problem with it except..." is a problem.
It's very easy for parents to be dishonest with themselves.
It's very easy for parents to use other people's words (like "stimming"?) to shame and control their children and to make the parents feel virtuous and wise when they're really n ot being either one.

-=-... except that she persistently presses pause, play, pause, play over and over again. She screeches and tenses her body up as she's doing it as well. -=-

She's FOUR YEARS OLD.
Her problem is her parents are not paying attention to her and plugging the iPad in when she gets a low power notification.

If ANY behavior is "persistent," that means the parents are ignoring the child over and over again. She wouldn't screech or tense if she wasn't feeling powerless and helpless. HELP HER!

The rest of that post was fine with me, but this is irritating, and very wrong:

-=-We've taken away the apps she does this with-=-

She loved something very much, so you took it away?
Maybe sending her to school would be better than unschooling, if you can't look at what you wrote and see that the problem is with the parents, and not the child.

-=-she will do it until the battery dies and then have a fit because the battery died.-=-

HAVE A FIT?
Whose words are THOSE?
That is a hugely disrespectful attitude toward a child you should be loving gently and supporting sweetly.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
When you use someone else's phrase, you're not writing thoughtfully.

-=- I know she's doing it for some kind of sensory input.-=-

You wrote that, but then went on to write that you DON'T know.
I think you're wrong, by far.

-=-Since she cant verbalize to me why she's doing this, I can't give her what she needs. I dont see stimming as something she's learning from, I believe she's doing it because she's lacking and in need of something. -=-

Everyone needs sensory input. Don't belittle it by saying "some kind of sensory input."

-=- I believe she's doing it because she's lacking ... -=-

Think back to your description of the way your parents treated you ( I grew up in a family that thought I was as dumb as a rock, even when I brought home As from school, just because I was a child, pre-teen, teen. I wasn't an adult or smart or made good decisions in my parents eyes until I became a mother at 24 (I turned 29 yesterday) So I have no experience in what this looks like.)

Don't treat your child like she's "lacking."

-=-I believe she's doing it because she's lacking and in need of something. -=-

It sounds to me like she needs to play those apps you took away, and that she needs parents to keep the iPad charged up.

-=- She cannot help herself and she will do it until the battery dies-=-

What are the parents doing while she's living her life as the battery dies?
Perhaps that should never, ever happen again, and she will not need to screech and flail and press pause, play, pause, play over and over again.

Seriously.
This one you couldn't figure out?

Many years ago, around 1990, I had two young children. My sister had three. We had a Nintendo. My sister said she would never buy her kids a gaming system, because they had been visiing friends who had a SEGA and the kids were fighting over whose turn it was. I looked at her in that sisterly way and said "So you'd rather spend money on something that's not worth fighting over?"
They bought a SEGA, and her daughter is an artist who for many years drew Sonic the Hedgehog doing all kinds of things. A sample of her mid-teen work is on this page:

http://sandradodd.com/videogames/oldindex (bottom right)

She's 30 now, and still an artist.

Sandra

tallulahjoy@...



--My daughter with CP has some stimming behaviors when it comes to her ipad. She will play with it until the battery dies, which I have no problem with except that she persistently presses pause, play, pause, play over and over again.  She screeches and tenses her body up as she's doing it as well. We've taken away the apps she does this with, but will find some other way to get her "fix" on another app. She cannot help herself and she will do it until the battery dies and then have a fit because the battery died. I know she's doing it for some kind of sensory input. Since she cant verbalize to me why she's doing this, I can't give her what she needs. I dont see stimming as something she's learning from, I believe she's doing it because she's lacking and in need of something. Does anyone have experience with this?"--

Does your daughter have hypertonia ("too much" muscle tone)?   Is it possible the screeching and tensing of her body is her expression of joy and excitement, and a cue for you to support her by providing a charged ipad and the apps she most loves so that she can explore the ipad in her own way?   If her loud vocalization and tensing are signs of frustration, can she resolve the issue on her own or does she actually "need" you to step in?

I agree with Sandra on not removing apps your daughter loves.  Some professionals seem to consider all "different" behavior (loud "screeches" of excitement, repetitive "self-stim" behaviors, etc) as socially embarrassing and presume the parent wants to train all such behaviors out of the child.  Personally, I'm not embarrassed by my daughter's uniqueness and won't allow anyone to take away her right to explore and communicate in her own way.  On her first communication device there was an option for her to say, "Screw you."   She loved to throw it into a conversation with a big grin and intense gaze focused on whomever she was aiming it at.    Our tech support person offered to block that on her device.   I took it as a moment for education, turned down the offer, and reiterated that my daughter has a right to say what she wants to say.   Listeners have the right to respond as they would to a vocal child, whether they prefer to ignore, to respond calmly, to ask why, or to choose to disengage from the conversation.  

Yes, there are those who are uncomfortable around my daughter because she's "different," but that's not her problem or my problem.  It's theirs. I don't need to "fix" her for others. 

My daughter also twirls a hairband in her hands for hours each day, much like some people drum their fingers on the table or kick a foot idly while sitting.  If the twirling distracts my daughter's focus while doing something I know she wants or needs to do (eat or brush her teeth, for instance) I ask her to give it to me until done with a task, which she does willingly.   Otherwise, I have no need to take away what interests her.  Now that she's older, she often expresses her love of pattern and repetition through taking a series of photos on her ipad.   The photos she takes reveal her own unique sense of beauty, a love of architectural pattern, light and shadow, and a sharp eye for detail.  My daughter's series of photos can be anywhere from 3 or 4 to 30 or 40 photos with slight variation and a natural progression from each photo to the next.  

 It sounds as if your daughter may be fully engaged and excited when she's using her favorite apps on the ipad.  Support her interests rather than removing them, observe a little more, intervene a little less.  There is beauty and much to be learned as you observe and support your daughter's explorations into the world of pattern and repetition with an honest desire to see the world through her eyes rather than forcing her into what some consider to be an "acceptable" societal mold.

kirkpatrick clare

"except that she persistently presses pause, play, pause, play over and over again"

So, what? What is wrong with her doing this? It clearly meets some need you're not managing to meet in any other way right now, so what is the problem with her doing this until the need is met? 

" We've taken away the apps she does this with,"

Why would you do this? This makes me feel really sad. It's like taking a special cuddly toy away :( Please put them back - let her have the things that make her feel safe.

" but will find some other way to get her "fix" on another app. She cannot help herself and she will do it until the battery dies and then have a fit because the battery died."

This should all be telling you very clearly that she *needs* to do this right now and that you *ought* to be helping her to do it as much as she needs until her needs are completely met and she no longer needs to do it. Instead of taking apps away, find more that will help her to do this. Make sure the ipad has plenty of battery - charge it overnight. Buy a second one so she can use that while the first is charging. Find her a beanbag to sit on by the socket so she can still play while it's charging. Show her how to plug it in, what sound it makes when it needs plugging in so her game doesn't get cut off without warning. Help her to do the things she wants or needs to do as much as she possibly can.

"I believe she's doing it because she's lacking and in need of something."

So don't make that lack even worse by taking things away. 

I would suggest that you focus on your relationship and connection with her. Watch or play these apps with her. If she starts to press play and pause repeatedly, maybe ask her, kindly and with genuine interest, why she's doing it. Say it makes it difficult to play if she does that...but if that's the way she wants to play, that's cool anyway. Ask her if there's something bothering her. Does she need a snack? Does she need to move her body? Would she like you to get a swing for the garden or a spinny chair or an indoor trampoline? Does she need to be cuddled up tight? Does she need a drink? Is she bored? (Incidentally, one of my children sometimes does that play-pause-play thing...I asked her why she does, once, and she said it's when it's late at night and she's bored but not tired - we suggested a big, physical play time before other family members need to go to bed and that really helped her. So the behaviour wasn't a problem, it was a signpost to a problem).

Clare

Sandra Dodd

-=-(Incidentally, one of my children sometimes does that play-pause-play thing...I asked her why she does, once, and she said it's when it's late at night and she's bored but not tired - we suggested a big, physical play time before other family members need to go to bed and that really helped her. So the behaviour wasn't a problem, it was a signpost to a problem).-=-

Here are ideas. Don't require them, don't see it as a curriculum. They're just ideas:

http://sandradodd.com/physicality

(Did I put a curse on that page for anyone who would make a child turn off a video game against her will? Maybe I should do that now...)

Sandra

Jason M Dyess

On play pause, play pause:

My younger son will do this while playing lego games, especially lego start wars. Drives me crazy because of the sound the system makes when he does it. I asked him one day (before I discovered unschooling and mindful parenting) why he did it, and he told me (basically) that he liked trying to do a frame by frame shot of what he was doing. (I say basically, because he couldn't articulate it at the time. Not sure when he did it last. I hope my constant (at the time) making him stop for my sanity made him give it up. today I would just ask him if he would be willing to mute it or I would put on some headphones or something.

Jason

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-(Incidentally, one of my children sometimes does that play-pause-play thing...I asked her why she does, once, and she said it's when it's late at night and she's bored but not tired - we suggested a big, physical play time before other family members need to go to bed and that really helped her. So the behaviour wasn't a problem, it was a signpost to a problem).-=-

Here are ideas. Don't require them, don't see it as a curriculum. They're just ideas:

http://sandradodd.com/physicality

(Did I put a curse on that page for anyone who would make a child turn off a video game against her will? Maybe I should do that now...)

Sandra


kgharriman1@...

The original poster say her child had cp. I am taking this to mean cerebral palsy? I am thinking that is why the term stimming was used which is usually used in association with autism and refers to self stimulatory behaviour. If the child has special needs then I would have thought that there's no reason to write here because there should be understanding of a different kind of normal for that child. Eg ipad behaviour. I could be wrong though and maybe cp does not mean that at all.

Sandra Dodd

-=-On play pause, play pause:. . .I asked him one day (before I discovered unschooling and mindful parenting) why he did it, and he told me (basically) that he liked trying to do a frame by frame shot . . . . I hope my constant (at the time) making him stop for my sanity made him give it up. -=-

Hope it did, or hope it didn't?

I'm going off on a tangent now, inspired by the above, but not addressed to it.

It's a danger for parents to think they're doing something for their sanity, or they need a nap or alone time. To some extent it could be true, but if they reserve too much time and energy for themselves, and the relationship with the child suffers, unschooing can fail. Peaceful parenting can fail. The family can fail.

If parents refuse to make sacrifices, or except young children to take care of perfectly healthy parents, things won't go well.

Being a good parent, not according to a list in a magazine, or vague memories of what grandparents might have thought or said, but being a good parent in the eyes of one's children, in one's examined soul, is a big thing most parents never even see a glimpse of. There are people in this discussion who are willing (voluntarily, generously) to help other parents find that state.

We can go beyond normal.

Sandra

Nowhere Man

My daughter does play-pause-play, and play-rewind-play, especially with music, but also movies. She is learning sounds and meaning of words, and sounds of music notes, one tiny piece at a time. This is very important for her to do, this is how she has acquired the ability to speak functional language. She was diagnosed six years ago as severely autistic. We were told she would never speak functionally and that we should place her in a facility. NO! Instead, we continued to remove as much of her frustration as we could, allowing her to do what she needed to in as peaceful a way as possible, even (especially?) when we didn't know why. Now twelve years old, she is happy and affectionate, despite "professional" prediction. She now can say several words whenever she wants too, and is learning more all the time. 


Sent from my iPad

On Jun 17, 2015, at 11:27 PM, Jason M Dyess jasonmdyess@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:

 

On play pause, play pause:

My younger son will do this while playing lego games, especially lego start wars. Drives me crazy because of the sound the system makes when he does it. I asked him one day (before I discovered unschooling and mindful parenting) why he did it, and he told me (basically) that he liked trying to do a frame by frame shot of what he was doing. (I say basically, because he couldn't articulate it at the time. Not sure when he did it last. I hope my constant (at the time) making him stop for my sanity made him give it up. today I would just ask him if he would be willing to mute it or I would put on some headphones or something.

Jason

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-(Incidentally, one of my children sometimes does that play-pause-play thing...I asked her why she does, once, and she said it's when it's late at night and she's bored but not tired - we suggested a big, physical play time before other family members need to go to bed and that really helped her. So the behaviour wasn't a problem, it was a signpost to a problem).-=-

Here are ideas. Don't require them, don't see it as a curriculum. They're just ideas:

http://sandradodd.com/physicality

(Did I put a curse on that page for anyone who would make a child turn off a video game against her will? Maybe I should do that now...)

Sandra


naomicfisher@...

Stimming in my experience is not usually used to shame children. Stimming is a word to describe repetitive behaviours which children and adults use to help modulate their emotions - particularly to calm themselves or to keep themselves alert. It is used by many people with disabilities in a positive way about themselves. We all use stimming behaviours - hair twiddling, or pencil tapping are examples.

An intense and repetitive stimming behaviour going on for long periods could indicate that a child is overwhelmed by their emotion and is finding a situation stressful, but doesn't have the capability right now to get out of the situation for themselves nor to calm themselves down effectively. I would therefore look carefully at what she is doing when she uses intense stimming - particularly if she doesn't seem happy. If you focus on keeping the Ipad charged and enabling her to continue, you could be keeping her in a stressful situation which she can't yet make her own way out of. She is very young and may not be able to tell you how she feels about it - can you tell if she is happy or anxious when she behaves like that? And does the behaviour seem to reduce her anxiety (if she is anxious) or does she seem stuck?

From your post you said you removed those apps - was that because you felt she was not enjoying them and they caused her more anxiety than joy? If it is joy, of course help her to continue, but if it is anxiety and stress you might want to look a bit more deeply into what she is playing those apps for, and whether there are other apps she could play which she will enjoy as much but will not find as stressful right now. There is no problem with using stimming behaviours,
but if they indicate extreme anxiety or stress I would not ignore that communication, nor would I act to keep her in that situation. She might be showing you that this is very stressful for her and she needs your help to move on.

It might be worth looking into other ways she could calm herself and you could help her calm herself - chewable jewellery, body brushing, stroking her, deep body pressure, water play or a nest swing might be possibilities. And you could try copying her stimming with her, alongside her, and see what it feels like, which might give you more insight into what she is gaining from it and what need she might be fulfilling.

Naomi

Sandra Dodd

Thanks, Naomi, for your post that began "Stimming in my experience is not usually used to shame children."

The original question had this: "I dont see stimming as something she's learning from..."

Whatever it was, I didn't want the mom to be dismissing the child, or the importance of the behavior or the needs.

It didn't sound like something the mom was happy to see happening. It's helpful for unschooling if the parents can find things to be happy about. :-)


Sandra