emstrength@...

Something I've been thinking about and wanted to discuss:

This page on Sandra's site, is mostly about "If I let him...." the kid(s) would do the same thing, mostly watch tv or play video games, all day.  http://sandradodd.com/ifilet

 

What I've been thinking about is along the same lines, but about content, not amount.

I'd like to bring some "If I let him/her..." fears into the light so we can examine them, in regards to content. 

I guess the biggest fear is that the things they see on tv or do in video games, they will actually do in real life.  Or that they will believe the messages they see in media as being true. 

Fears I've heard expressed are things like, "If I let him/her....

"Watch violent tv/play video games, he'll start hitting."
"Watch commercials, she'll start wanting everything she sees."
"Watch shows with magic, she'll want to be a witch."
"Listen to things with cuss words, he'll start cussing."
"Once they have an image in their minds, they can never get it out.  It desensitizes them to violence."
What others? 

One that I'm personally working through is the fear that watching shows with sexist portrayals of women/girls will influence their thinking that girls are not smart or strong or capable, that men should make all the decisions, that only men's stories matter, and so on.  I've been working on relaxing about that and don't let it cause me to stop them from watching any shows, but the fear is still there.

I was raised in a "shelter them from the world" style of homeschooling/private school.  One of the less extreme versions out there, but pretty conservative.  The underlying reasoning behind sheltering kids is that whatever they see and hear, they will believe and do. 

I do believe that we are influenced by what we see/play.  After all, we are learning all the time.  But the more varied content I let my kids watch/play, over the last 7 or more years of slowly relaxing, the more I'm seeing that it is variety, lots of variety and choices, in what they see and hear, that leads to making better choices about what they do.  That and good role models in real life and a peaceful, happy life, so they aren't making choices out of desperation or only having tv as an example of how to act. 

Ironically, one fear I have is that if my kids hear certain messages that I grew up with, that I now believe to be damaging beliefs emotionally or spiritually, that they will believe those.  So I'm working on relaxing about those too, so that I'm not being reactionary in the other direction.

Thoughts?


Emily 
   


Sandra Dodd

-=-
Fears I've heard expressed are things like, "If I let him/her....

"Watch violent tv/play video games, he'll start hitting."
"Watch commercials, she'll start wanting everything she sees."
"Watch shows with magic, she'll want to be a witch."
"Listen to things with cuss words, he'll start cussing."
"Once they have an image in their minds, they can never get it out. It desensitizes them to violence."
What others? -=-

Do these seem true and harmful to you?

I have some links that can help you think sbout it all further, but as to this one:
-=-"Watch shows with magic, she'll want to be a witch."-=-
In 1964 when the TV show "Betwitched" came out, I was eleven years old. I imagined how wonderful it would be if I had powers like that. Children have long had the same thoughts about fairy tales and folk tales about powers of invisibility, flight, magic tablecloths that can produce food. They imagined having the strength and courage of characters in stories and songs, thousands of years ago.

it's not harmful for children to want more power.
It's harmful for children to be made so powerless than they long for ANY power (ability, choices, options).

These ideas have been discussed pretty often over the years. I'll bring some links, and I hope others here will bring any I've not found, or thought of:

Toy guns:
http://sandradodd.com/peace/guns

Does TV cause violence? (by Deb Lewis)
http://sandradodd.com/t/violence

"Bad words":
http://sandradodd.com/language/bad

I was asked to do a workshop at an HSC conference a few years ago and here are my notes from that:
http://sandradodd.com/badwords
Many people talk about "cussing" without even thinking about what that word means at all, or about "swearing," when someone says "shit." Lame lack of awareness.
Language is fun, and old, and rich, and wonderful, but many of those who reject "bad words" haven't really thought of *why*.

Arguments against arguments against TV:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/tv%20and%20video%20games/argumentsagainsttv.html

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

> On May 16, 2015, at 9:11 PM, emstrength@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Watch violent tv/play video games, he'll start hitting."

Kids interested in a show or game will usually want to act out some of the ideas. It's no different than the "acting out" that went into writing the shows and games. It's called pretend. When they get into Harry Potter they cast spells. When they get into crime fighting, they'll want to kill the bad guys.

Kids can be helped to make thoughtful choices in their play so they aren't hurting others.

Sometimes kids do get a build up of energy when a show or game keeps them riveted with interest. They may get testy and hit. Kids can be helped to take breaks, to redirect their energy in other ways. It depends on the situation.

> "Watch commercials, she'll start wanting everything she sees."

Commercials are a useful resource. Trying some of the things out kids learn a lot about advertising. I also found it helpful to look with my daughter for the tricks advertisers use to make things look worth buying. (I used commercials for things she wasn't interested in so there wasn't an underlying message.)

I found my daughter was naturally pretty savvy. Think about why sometimes you're willing to turn off your questioning when you see something that looks to good to be true. Because you have a problem you desperately want to solve?

Don't make your child feel so desperate to have stuff that she's willing to turn off her questioning voice. Visit second-hand stores, yard sales, eBay. Help her find what interests her.


> "Watch shows with magic, she'll want to be a witch."

Is that a real fear? Or do you mean she'll believe there are real witches?

My daughter certainly wanted magic to be real. She believed Pokemon were real for a long time. Eventually kids realize reality doesn't support their theories. The evidence is overwhelming that these things don't exist.

There was a big huge fear during the Harry Potter days among fundamentalist Christians that Harry Potter would lead kids to Satanism and being witches. The evidence is overwhelming that those theories didn't pan out.


> "Listen to things with cuss words, he'll start cussing."

Perhaps. Would it be better to control what he says? Or to help him realize when it's okay to say such words and when it's not. You can help him make thoughtful choices rather than impose a rule.


> "Once they have an image in their minds, they can never
> get it out.



The moving skeleton in the opening scene of Indiana Jones affected what my daughter would watch for a long time. She enjoyed that type of movie so it's not that we insensitively made her watch something that was beyond her ability to handle.

So the effect was I would check sites like Screen It that break movies down describing common things that upset kids. So I would let her know if there dead things moving or something similar that might bother her. I used the information so I could warn her when the scene was coming. She was able to avoid the walking skeletons in Pirates of the Caribbean and the floating faces in one of the Lord of the Rings movies.

As an adult she watches horror movies that I have no interest in so there was no lasting damage.

> It desensitizes them to violence."

Real violence hurts people you love. Real violence means you live life in fear of being hurt.

Violence in movies and games and books is pretend. No one real gets hurt. The real actors go home to their families. The characters in video games can come back to life if the game's restarted.

*Kids* know that doesn't happen in real life. Why do adults get confused?

That said, some kids don't like watching violence. So parents avoid watching those kinds of movies with the child.

Kids want to see what they like and avoid what they don't.

Some kids may like a genre but are bothered by gore. In that case watching the make of videos can help. Watching during the day, feeling free to stop, come back, fast forward. There's all sorts of tools we can help kids with to gain power over what they fear.


> One that I'm personally working through is the fear that
> watching shows with sexist portrayals of women/girls will
> influence their thinking that girls are not smart or strong
> or capable, that men should make all the decisions,
> that only men's stories matter, and so on.

Why do you believe she would trust a movie more than what she sees in her home?

Kids of conventional parents spend *a lot* of time apart from their parents. TV and friends can be where they're picking up a lot of messages about what's right and wrong.

By being with kids, by treating them with respect, kids learn how our values *feel* to them. Being treated with respect will feel and make more sense than any other message they may see.


> don't let it cause me to stop them from watching
> any shows, but the fear is still there.

It's quite possible they feel your fear.


> The underlying reasoning behind sheltering kids is that
> whatever they see and hear, they will believe and do.

Are kids thoughtless blank slates that whatever they see they accept without question?

So even though you treat your daughter kindly, she'd erase that message she's living and replace it with "It's okay to hurt people to get what you want." the moment she sees it?

Isn't that pretty disrespectful of your child's intelligence?

When they're young they will try out ideas that look like they've adopted hurtful values. It takes maturity to realize that other people don't share our experiences. That what's fun for us may not be fun for another. That seems obvious! But little kids can't yet get it. Age takes care of it, but in the mean time parents can be more present to stop kids from hurting each other.

> I do believe that we are influenced by what we see/play.

Yes, but not to the extent that new information erases everything that's been learned before it!

Even in school it takes several years before kids get the message that questioning what they're told isn't tolerated.

Learning means turning over ideas to see how well they fit with what you've come to understand is true. Until you grow a new understanding of how learning happens, you'll going to struggle with the idea that kids can't think about what they see and question it.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

I know there might have been responses already, but I'm going to respond first, and then read what others have brought.

-=-I was raised in a "shelter them from the world" style of homeschooling/private school. One of the less extreme versions out there, but pretty conservative. The underlying reasoning behind sheltering kids is that whatever they see and hear, they will believe and do. -=-

I'm going to assume that was a fundamentalist Christian homeschooling situation. (Could've been Seton-curriculum/Catholic, but I'm thinking not.)

Among fundamentalists, fear is the basis of life. Virtue and "learning" are all about avoiding the whole range of hell and Satanic influences. Among ideas that are dangerous and evil is the thought that humans are born good, and with the potential be make good decisions based on logic and reason. Because of that, it can be difficult for even the next generation after practicing fundamentalism to relax into unschooling.

-=-I do believe that we are influenced by what we see/play. After all, we are learning all the time.-=-

And parents are learning, too. While they see their children learn in ways that are different, and new, and peaceful, they learn more about themselves, and the world, and their children.

This is beautiful:
-=-But the more varied content I let my kids watch/play, over the last 7 or more years of slowly relaxing, the more I'm seeing that it is variety, lots of variety and choices, in what they see and hear, that leads to making better choices about what they do. That and good role models in real life and a peaceful, happy life, so they aren't making choices out of desperation or only having tv as an example of how to act. -=-

People need good examples and bad examples both. I've been saying that more and more to unschoolers in the past few years. Following the first unschooling family they see might not lead them to the best they could find. :-) Seeing a range of possibilities is better.

-=-Ironically, one fear I have is that if my kids hear certain messages that I grew up with, that I now believe to be damaging beliefs emotionally or spiritually, that they will believe those. So I'm working on relaxing about those too, so that I'm not being reactionary in the other direction. -=-

What a parent has experience with, and so avoids, DOES affect their children, but maybe in good ways. I avoided alcoholic friends and relative, when my kids were little. There were close relatives they hardly knew, because I wanted them to be older before they were around drunks. I don't regret that. I sheltered them from a relative who's a thief and a liar; when he was known to be in New Mexico recently, I warned each of them, and reminded them not to trust him and not to "lend" him money—that if he needed money and they wanted to give him some, not to expect to get it back. He didn't contact any of them, but they're adults now and I'm not in the same position to protect them.

When I was young I believed what Baptists believe. I wanted those things all to be true. I was saved. For me to be "saved," I needed a clear image of what I was saved from.

In art, they talk about the object, and the field. I've told people they're the center of their own universe. That makes them the object, in the field of all "other." It's good, for unschooling parents, to try to be balanced, and not to have too many stark dichotomies in their thinking. Dualism (a "sin" or flaw in some religious and philosophical thought) is like that—dividing the world into two, or dividing a topic or idea into absolutely right and absolutely wrong. Christianity does that. Some other religions and beliefs do, too.

Helping our children learn in the real world, and about the real world, doesn't need to involve "exposing them" to EVERYthing in the whole world. They don't need to be in a bar at 1:00 a.m. They don't need to see junkies shooting up, or crime scenes. But there can be too much sheltering, and too much demonization to everyday things.

-=-Ironically, one fear I have is that if my kids hear certain messages that I grew up with, that I now believe to be damaging beliefs emotionally or spiritually, that they will believe those. So I'm working on relaxing about those too, so that I'm not being reactionary in the other direction. -=-

It has occurred to me that one of my kids could become very religious. It would be interesting if one started proselytizing me with the same Bible verses I can cite and recite. :-)

Anyone who has left a church or cult or social group knows that a belief or habit isn't necessarily lifelong.

Sandra

redheadmom11@...

As a Baptist radical unschooler, Sandra's post has really given me a lot to percolate on. I honestly expected to be a little offended when I started reading it, but, in my experience, I've got to agree with her. 

This actually ties in with what I've been thinking about since last week when I clicked on the fear link on Sandra's website. Reading those posts really opened my eyes to the effects that a parent's fears can ultimately have on their children, and, unfortunately, a lot of good friends from my church came to mind. My approach to parenting is somewhat different from theirs, in that my children are free to watch what they want, read what they want, and pursue anything they like. This has not only happened since we've started unschooling. My husband is not a Christian, so our children have always been able to experience both sides of the coin. I feel I'm there as an example to them- they know what's important to me- but in the end, they are free to believe what they choose to believe. My 16-year-old daughter has recently told me that she doesn't really believe what I do. I was troubled at first, but our relationship has only strengthened in that we now have very intense discussions about our differences and why we feel the way we do. We never argue. In the end, we always agree to disagree, but at the end of the day she's never afraid to come to me with anything that's on her mind.

In contrast, I've seen some parenting tactics from people who I truly consider to be friends that are troubling- even more so since applying what I've read to what I've seen. A close friend of my daughter's from church has been traditionally homeschooled her whole life. This girl and her sister are sheltered from pretty much everything in the secular world. Their parents restrict what they can watch (the almost 17 year old has just recently been allowed to watch animes that contain violence.), the parents also monitor what they're allowed to read (their mom once asked me if the Warrior series contained any blood, because her 13-year-old daughter was reading it, and she didn't know if it would be too violent...it's about cats.), and how they spend their time. My daughter came home from the youth group pool party last year and told me how these girls freaked out there because the boys took their shirts off to swim, and they had never seen a shirtless boy before. I can definitely see where fear is harming these girls, however unintentional it may be.

Another woman brought her baby into the nursery where I was helping out the other week with her 6-year-old screaming and crying running after her. After screaming at him to sit down and be quiet, she explained to me that she's at her wits end because he's afraid of everything and screams every time she leaves his sight. Then, she went on to give us the rules for her baby while he's in the nursery-1. Don't let him crawl around on the floor because people wear their shoes in there. 2. He can only eat the organic snacks she brings for him because he may choke on the Cheerios we provide. 3. He has to keep his shoes on, even if he wants them off. I think I might know where her 6-year-old's fear comes from.

Lastly, (I could honestly go on and on with more examples) a young mother at our church was raised in such a way that she was only allowed to play with children chosen by her parents, she wasn't allowed to go anywhere or do anything, and they even picked out her prom date for her. Today she is a beautiful person, but the effects still show. She's a complete germ-a-phobe and had a nervous breakdown a few years ago that landed her in the hospital for a while. 

What really bothers me is that God does not intend for us to be afraid of everything. "For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power, and love, and self-control." He also does not intend for us to be so legalistic about rules- as Jesus said, "My yoke is light." Believers too often forget about grace and the sovereignty of God, and they try to take everything into their own hands- just like the Pharisees. People are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. And while there are some things that are black and white, most things fall somewhere in between. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." Did you catch that? We are to love him with all our MINDS. It has to be our choice. We are to decide for ourselves- our faith has to be our own. This is where TRUST comes in. No amount of coercion can accomplish that.


[spaces between paragraphs added by a moderator—text would have been difficult to read]

Sandra Dodd

-=-My husband is not a Christian, so our children have always been able to experience both sides of the coin. -=-

:-)

While the rest of the post was helpful and useful, "both sides of the coin" is a great example of the dualism and extremism I was talking about in my post. To divide the world into Christianity and "the other side of the coin" (or a particular type of Baptist church and "other") doesn't leave much for the edge of the coin. :-)

Sandra

emstrength@...

I made a connection the other day between this:

<<<<<My daughter certainly wanted magic to be real. She believed Pokemon were real for a long time. Eventually kids realize reality doesn't support their theories. The evidence is overwhelming that these things don't exist.>>>>>

even though it wasn't a response to what I had written about sexism in movies and this:

<<<<Why do you believe she would trust a movie more than what she sees in her home?>>>>

which was a response to what I wrote about sexism. 

My daughters recently met a district attorney who is a woman, but met her outside of her job.  I forget why now, but it came up that the local judge is also a woman.  One of my girls said something like "Wow!  I didn't know women could be judges.  I've never seen one!" 

Immediately, my thoughts about tv and movie portrayals of women popped into my mind.  After all, they would rarely have a reason to see a judge in real life, but they've seen enough tv portrayals of judges to have an idea of what judges do, that it's a powerful position and that, apparently, only men are judges. 

I realized the other day when I read theses responses, that what you said is exactly what had happened. They compared what they saw on tv with what they just learned about the way things are in real life and as you said, reality didn't support their theories.   

What I was previously seeing as a failure on my part and a failure of tv/movie makers, I'm now seeing was an an opportunity to compare reality and fiction, and challenge preconceived notions.

Having more things to compare, more ideas that challenge other ideas is a GOOD thing!  Which was kind of what I was thinking when I started this thread, but needed help clarifying all of the swirling thoughts.

The only thing I said to them was to affirm that yes, women can be judges.  The rest was all internal processing, because I've learned over the years of working through other fears like violence or swearing or witchcraft portrayed on tv, that it's better to relax while working it all out rather than freak out while working it all out. 


 

emstrength@...


<<<<<<And parents are learning, too. While they see their children learn in ways that are different, and new, and peaceful, they learn more about themselves, and the world, and their children.>>>>>

Yes!  So much!

A few months ago, my kids started playing Five Nights at Freddy's, which has creepy animatronic characters and jump scares.  I couldn't understand what the draw was, but I said yes and I played it with them.  Then they started wanting to watch the youtube videos and I said yes and watched with them.  Then I noticed that in their pretend play they would tell the animatronics what to do.  They'd take these scary characters and turn the situation around so they were the ones scaring the animatronics.  Or tell them to "shut up."  I realized, the game is giving them a chance to confront their fears.  To take something that scares them and have control over it.  It's been really interesting to watch. 

Emily

Sandra Dodd

-=- I realized, the game is giving them a chance to confront their fears. To take something that scares them and have control over it. It's been really interesting to watch. -=-

Nice, Emily!
That's what fairy tales did for kids before people came along and criticized them into dust, or re-wrote them to be "relevant" and neutral and bloodless and gutless.

I liked what you wrote, though, and saved it on an otherwise antique page. Because the idea is timeless, that young children fantasize and play with "danger" and "evil" and think of and act out what they would do if they were more powerful somehow.

http://sandradodd.com/game/tales

Sandra

Juliet Kemp

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 07:39:45AM -0600, Sandra Dodd
Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] wrote:
>
> *** I liked what you wrote, though, and saved it on an otherwise antique
> page. Because the idea is timeless, that young children fantasize and
> play with "danger" and "evil" and think of and act out what they would
> do if they were more powerful somehow. ***

There's a very interesting book called "Killing Monsters: Why Children
Need Fantasy, Super Heroes, and Make-Believe Violence" (by Gerard Jones)
which looks at this in lots of detail.


Juliet

Sandra Dodd

Yes. Gerard Jones has written lots of things. Some's here:


http://sandradodd.com/people/kathyward/gerardjones

If you search my site there are some quotes and book mentions, too, but search Gerard Jones anywhere on the internet.

Sandra