rinelle@...

Lately my daughter (10), has been frequently asking for help, and then when it either isn't done the way she wants, is impossible, or something goes wrong, yelling at me and blaming me. 


For example, today she's been really interested in pottery, using a kids pottery wheel she has. It's a really difficult skill, and one I don't know much about, so there has been a lot of frustration. She has asked me to get the clay centred for her, then when I'm struggling to do so, she started yelling that I'd ruined it. If I tried to suggest that she try something different (bracing her hands against the side for example), she yells that that won't work. I suggested looking up some tutorials on YouTube. Again she yelled that she'd tried that, and it had made it harder. A little while later, she asked me to look for some tutorials on YouTube. (These suggestions weren't all at once, but over the course of the day, she's been playing with the clay on and off all day.)


She finally managed to get it centred, and make a small pot, and then she wanted to take it off the wheel. After trying to slide the string under it as she'd seen on YouTube, she asked me to do it for her. I slid the string under, but the clay was still too soft, so I suggested we wait until it had dried a little. At first she said it had to be done right away, so I took a deep breath, and showed her how even putting the string under a little was putting pressure on the pot. She decided we should wait until it had dried a little. Then she started spinning the wheel (I think with the intention of the motion helping dry it faster.) 


Because the pot had been moved a little off centre by our attempts to move it, the spinning pushed it out of shape, so I said to stop, and explained what was happening. My daughter got very upset, and began yelling at me that I'd ruined her pot. 


I understand that she's upset and frustrated by things not working out the way she wants, but I'm finding it really hard to be yelled at for running things frequently, (This has happened on several occasions over the last week, maybe 4 or 5 times?) and I'm not sure how to respond. I'm trying really hard to stay calm and not yell back (not always successfully!), and would love some things I could do instead. 


At the same time, I do feel the need to do something too change this dynamic, as I can see that it's making me reluctant to do things with her or help her when asked. I'm finding myself pulling back from this sort of activity for fear that it will end up making us both upset, and I really don't want to do that. (And I'm sure my daughter can sense my reluctance, and it's making the situation worse.) 


Both of us really enjoy craft (and both have very definite ideas on the best way to do something!) and I want to be able to enjoy this activity, not it be a source of conflict.


Tamara 


K Pennell

One thing I've tried when my son is getting very upset about a video game (asking for help and then not liking my help), I may suggest a different activity. Sometimes, he says yes and we do something different for a while. Other times, he REALLY wants to work it out, and doesn't want to move on. At those times, I try to help, but then if he's yelling or rude, I will say "Well, I don't like being yelled at. If you want me to try again, let me know, but right now I don't think this is helping." Sometimes I walk away for a minute, so I don't lose my temper. Then, I will offer a snack, which can help his mood (and his ability to problem solve) and also lets him know I'm not angry.  Lots of time we stop for a cocoa and peanut butter cracker break. It's comforting and cozy. We'll watch a funny show while we have cocoa and then he goes back to the game refreshed and calmer.

Jorie Denny

I find for me it helps a lot to change my own mindset about the yelling. I don't get triggered if I remind myself where their anger is coming from and avoid judging it as rude or disrespectful etc. Knowing that it is just a big feeling that is coming out in my direction and is not about me. I can then really be in a place of empathy with them and offer validation about how frustrating it must be. I can sit with their feelings and be OK with yelling because I no longer feel like the victim of abuse, but a safe place to release stress. 


Sandra Dodd

-=-I can sit with their feelings and be OK with yelling because I no longer feel like the victim of abuse, but a safe place to release stress. -=-

Sometimes yelling IS abusive.
While it's okay for parents of young children to accept some overflow emotion without taking it personally, it's possible for a parent to to fail to coach a child.

http://sandradodd.com/balance

Too much is as bad as too little.

Sandra

Jorie Denny

I agree, Sandra. When my kids have gotten more extreme, like name calling or hitting, I have asked for more kindness and less name calling or whatever the issue, and have verbalized that I do not want to be hit, etc. There are limits to what I want to accept for myself and I imagine everyone has different limits along those lines. I noticed that the previous commenter had already mentioned some helpful ideas, including verbalizing her request to not be yelled at, leaving the situation, etc. I was trying not to be redundant, but offer a different perspective. Is it your opinion that what Tamara is describing IS abusive? The way I read it, her child seemed to be expressing a lot of frustration through anger and blame. Strategies that don't seem to be working for Tamara.  I have found that sometimes when I am triggered, it is not as much about what's happening as my thoughts about what's happening. When I am able to shift my thoughts about it, I can stay centered and access my higher brain functions as apposed to being in a fight or flight mode. 

You mentioned that some overflow is acceptable with younger children. Is there an age at which you expect this to shift and no longer be acceptable? If so, what age? When you mentioned that it is possible for a parent to "fail to coach a child", what is your idea of what that means? Coach them to be socially acceptable? Meaning that if you let your child be abusive toward you, without coaching otherwise, that they will be abusive to others without realizing that there are consequences to that? Just looking for clarity about that concept. Am I on track?

I look forward to reading your response to Tamara's issue as well. :) 

J;D

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-I can sit with their feelings and be OK with yelling because I no longer feel like the victim of abuse, but a safe place to release stress. -=-

Sometimes yelling IS abusive.
While it's okay for parents of young children to accept some overflow emotion without taking it personally, it's possible for a parent to to fail to coach a child.

http://sandradodd.com/balance

Too much is as bad as too little.

Sandra


Jorie Denny

~Sometimes yelling IS abusive.~

I am also curious to know what your ideas are about when yelling becomes abusive.  Frequency? Volume? Content/context?  If this is not helpful to the original post I would gladly take this to another subject heading.  Just very interested in the details of your thoughts around these ideas. :) 

Thanks,

J;D

Ali Zeljo

> While it's okay for parents of young children to accept some overflow emotion without taking it personally, it's possible for a parent to to fail to coach a child.

This has been an ongoing issue for me with one of my sons. He has explosive anger fits and he seeks me out during these times. I'm grateful that he seeks me out because I do not get offended or reactive to him and so we can work to help him calm down. My husband often gets drawn in, feels offended and reactive, which isn't good for either of them. As my son gets older, I've been able to do more coaching. It's been a gradual process, but now when he is verbally mean to me because he's angry from losing a game, I say that I'm not going to take that to heart. I'll wait for you to calm down. He hears me and is usually able to calm himself within a minute and apologizes for his meanness. We've come a long way. He used to jump at me and physically attack me.

Always part of his anger outburst is a demand for food, so I do think blood sugar is part of it. I'm not sure if some losses are manageable simply because his blood sugar is stable and others are not because of hunger? Or maybe it's that a huge disappointing loss uses up a lot of energy and there's an immediate need for food right away. Bringing regular snack trays is part of the solution for us. Me always trusting that he will learn to manage these big frustration outbursts has been really important. I approach it like a partnership. I'm the stability during the outburst, and I give him feedback afterwards. He's old enough to understand and work on it now. He's 11. We have a book for kids that explains techniques that people can use to manage that big tense feeling before an outburst. At this point, years into working on his anger, I can even suggest some of the techniques when his anger is rising. This is because I'm a trustworthy partner. I'm not reactive and I stay calm when he is getting angry. He has learned to go away and read a book with a snack. He can calm himself down a good deal of the time. It's pretty amazing!

Ali

Sandra Dodd

Lori Odhner's "Marriage Moats" today might have ideas for some situations about yelling.
________________



Pencil in My Teeth


A mother with a pack of little kids told me her latest trick. She puts a pencil between her teeth at the most vulnerable time of day.... trying to get out the door.

She heard it on a TED talk about changing your body stance to reflect where you want to be. The speaker, who is a professor in an MBA program, says that taking a pose like spreading your arms can help you feel more powerful. She also mentioned that the presence of an object in your mouth forces you to smile, making it hard to get angry. Not only that it keeps said little kids curious enough to get their boots on.

Another mom told me she was starting to lose it with her daughter while she was brushing another daughter's hair. She poured her focus into the soft brown locks, and it kept the anger at a distance.

There was a time in Odhner history when I knew I had to be at the local library at four o'clock. Every day. The librarian probably thought I was an over achieving mother of preschoolers, exposing them to books often and eagerly. But it was a survival tactic. If we were home in the late afternoon, bedlam would erupt. If we were in a public place, we held it together. Then by five I could trundle them home in my bike cart and drop the kids in a pile of Legos while I rustled up supper.

I applaud such proactive measures. We are generally smart enough to put on coats when it is twenty degrees outside. There are ways to protect us from unfriendly interactions as well.

One time John and I were just beginning to clash about something that is no longer of any consequence, and he tossed me an appreciation. It was like a pencil between my teeth. I had to smile. Another time we were arguing when he noticed our son, who was supposed to be vacuuming the floor, was sucking up Cheerios one by one. And laughing. Our angst flew out the window.

I love that the content of the disagreements have long ago expired, but the peacemaking attempts are still fresh in my memory.
Love,

Lori
Lori Odhner
Caring for Marriage

http://archive.aweber.com/marriagemoats/9zGf5/h/Marriage_Moats_Pencil_in_My.htm

Sandy Kappa

Ali, you mention a book you use that has techniques for managing big tense feelings before an outburst. Perhaps you could share this resource.
Sandy


Sent from my iPad

Sandra Dodd

-=- When my kids have gotten more extreme, like name calling or hitting, I have asked for more kindness and less name calling or whatever the issue, and have verbalized that I do not want to be hit, etc. There are limits to what I want to accept for myself and I imagine everyone has different limits along those lines. -=-

This seems very wimpy to me, honestly.

If your neighbor or a stranger came into your house and hit you or one of your children, would you have verbalized that you do not want to be hit, etc.?

-=-There are limits to what I want to accept for myself -=-

How about "There are limits to what I will accept."
Are you planning to accept things you don't want to accept?

If a child is hitting another child, say STOP. Not kind of or maybe or kind of.
If a child is hitting you, why would you not stop it immediately and absolutely?

-=- Is it your opinion that what Tamara is describing IS abusive? -=-

I don't know from that much description, but I think it involves awareness and intent. And if a mother takes a victim role, that won't help anyone. And if the mother denies being victimized and justifies bullying behavior in a child, how is she helping him learn to live more peacefully in the world?

-=-You mentioned that some overflow is acceptable with younger children. Is there an age at which you expect this to shift and no longer be acceptable? If so, what age?-=-

Children learn to read somewhere between two and 14, generally.
Children learn to walk between ten months and two years, pretty much.
Why do you think I would know or think or name an age at which emotional maturity should kick in?

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Some people have a great deal of intrapersonal intelligence. They know themselves early on.
Some have lots in interpersonal intelligence and are good at reading others and negotiating with them.
Some people take longer to figure things out.

Some people might be great with interpersonal relations, but have a quick temper, or hormone storms, and so have certain times that it's more difficult. Some people might have a hard time being nice if they're sick, or hungry.

Parents should partner with children in helping them be aware of whatever factors are at play in various situation—having guests, visiting, getting sleep, drinking water, eating, learning ways to calm themselves. These things are different for different people, and part of the learning people ideally do with unschooling is learning how to manager their own moods and needs.

-=-When you mentioned that it is possible for a parent to "fail to coach a child", what is your idea of what that means? Coach them to be socially acceptable?-=-

YES!
That can't be surprising, can it?

-=- Meaning that if you let your child be abusive toward you, without coaching otherwise, that they will be abusive to others without realizing that there are consequences to that?-=-

It's possible.
It has happened.
Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay because they are gifted, or Aspergers, or understandably frustrated, or were mistreated in some former family or situation, or whatever justifications. Instead of helping a child be at peace in the world, some parents hlpe the world will accommodate the child's actions, instead of helping him out.

-=- Meaning that if you let your child be abusive toward you, without coaching otherwise, that they will be abusive to others without realizing that there are consequences to that?-=-

If a child is left to discover that there are consequences to being abusive, how long might that take? There are things that children might do without legal consequences that will be illegal in a teen or adult, and could result in jailtime or prison. That's an extreme example, but these are extremely basic questions.

-=-I am also curious to know what your ideas are about when yelling becomes abusive. Frequency? Volume? Content/context? -=-

I'm curious about the question. It seems legalistic. It seems if I answer, you might want to use it to justify some action of your own.
If the mother feels abused, she should ask that child to stop, or remove herself from the situation, or get help.
If the mother decides to find ways not to feel abused, in such a fashion that the child might escalate his behavior to get her attention, why would she do that?

Intent would be a factor, certainly. Awareness and expectation could matter.
-=-Frequency? Volume? Content/context? -=-

That can't be answered any more than "at what age does it stop being acceptable?"

I suppose if the mother has no interest in or ability to coach the child, she might want to hire a coach or counsellor. http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Sandra

Jorie Denny



~If your neighbor or a stranger came into your house and hit you or one of your children, would you have verbalized that you do not want to be hit, etc.?~

My child is not a stranger. They are young beings who need understanding and help managing big feelings. 

~How about "There are limits to what I will accept.~
Another Mom might have different limits for herself and her child. I don't decide what her limits are, just mine. Is that more clear? 

~If a child is hitting another child, say STOP. Not kind of or maybe or kind of.~  

I do. I will also put my body between theirs to block further hitting (creating safety). Then we can start a conversation about what the hitting is about and options to resolve the issue at hand without hitting. 

~If a child is hitting you, why would you not stop it immediately and absolutely?~ 

I do. And THEN I verbalize that I do not want to be hit. I can see now how my lack of details may have painted a much different picture than I intended. :/ Thank you for this exercise in clarity. :) 


~I don't know from that much description, but I think it involves awareness and intent. And if a mother takes a victim role, that won't help anyone. And if the mother denies being victimized and justifies bullying behavior in a child, how is she helping him learn to live more peacefully in the world?~

I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. My suggestion is not to deny abuse but to reframe what might not be abuse but big emotions that need help being understood and expressed without judgement or shaming. There can still be a conversation about how that might work better for everyone in the future. 

~Why do you think I would know or think or name an age at which emotional maturity should kick in?~

Because you said this... "While it's okay for parents of young children to accept some overflow emotion without taking it personally..."
It seemed like you had some idea that there is an acceptable age and an unacceptable age. My belief is that every child is different just like with anything else but this statement seemed to imply that you thought differently so I asked for clarity, so as not to assume. 

Is it abuse if your two year old yells at you or hits you, or is it a two year old trying to learn to manage their feelings? Does that answer change when they are 10? If so, why? Is it about expectations? I am exploring this concept...


~YES! 
That can't be surprising, can it?~ 

I'm not surprised. Did something I said lead you to believe that I was/would be? I was just looking for you to elaborate on that idea so I could be sure I was understanding correctly.  


~I'm curious about the question. It seems legalistic. It seems if I answer, you might want to use it to justify some action of your own.~

Nope. You said, "Sometimes yelling IS abusive". When? I was wondering if, to you, that was when the individual being yelled at decides it's abusive or if there were some other factors involved in your thoughts about that.  

~If the mother decides to find ways not to feel abused, in such a fashion that the child might escalate his behavior to get her attention, why would she do that?~

This question is confusing to me. It presumes that there is a result before there is a decision. The word might is key here I think. In which case, I think the answer is because she would not know until she tried. Is this in reference to my comment about what works for me? I would think if things escalated, she might find a different solution. My kids respond well to empathy. If anything, it tends to deescalate matters. Then we can have a calm conversation about what works and what doesn't and other more desirable options for expressing frustration. IE: It would work better if the child yelled out, but not at.  I think that might fall under "coaching" but I just see it as parenting and automatically part of every process involving raising kids. Perhaps that was the key to my lack of complete details.  

The idea of changing one's mindset about a situation can be helpful in staying centered and therefore more capable of having calm conversations and giving advice to your child about options and more socially appropriate responses to feelings. If you are triggered personally, it's difficult to reason and find a peaceful resolution. 

~Parents should partner with children in helping them be aware of whatever factors are at play in various situation—having guests, visiting, getting sleep, drinking water, eating, learning ways to calm themselves. These things are different for different people, and part of the learning people ideally do with unschooling is learning how to manager their own moods and needs.~

I agree. :) 


~If a child is left to discover that there are consequences to being abusive, how long might that take? There are things that children might do without legal consequences that will be illegal in a teen or adult, and could result in jailtime or prison. That's an extreme example, but these are extremely basic questions.~

They may seem basic to you. I'm just looking to fully understand what you mean. 


I suppose if the mother has no interest in or ability to coach the child, she might want to hire a coach or counsellor.  http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Thanks, I'll pass this on if I come across anyone who professes to need it.  

J;D



On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=- When my kids have gotten more extreme, like name calling or hitting, I have asked for more kindness and less name calling or whatever the issue, and have verbalized that I do not want to be hit, etc. There are limits to what I want to accept for myself and I imagine everyone has different limits along those lines. -=-

This seems very wimpy to me, honestly.

If your neighbor or a stranger came into your house and hit you or one of your children, would you have verbalized that you do not want to be hit, etc.?

-=-There are limits to what I want to accept for myself -=-

How about "There are limits to what I will accept."
Are you planning to accept things you don't want to accept?

If a child is hitting another child, say STOP. Not kind of or maybe or kind of.
If a child is hitting you, why would you not stop it immediately and absolutely?

-=- Is it your opinion that what Tamara is describing IS abusive? -=-

I don't know from that much description, but I think it involves awareness and intent. And if a mother takes a victim role, that won't help anyone. And if the mother denies being victimized and justifies bullying behavior in a child, how is she helping him learn to live more peacefully in the world?

-=-You mentioned that some overflow is acceptable with younger children. Is there an age at which you expect this to shift and no longer be acceptable? If so, what age?-=-

Children learn to read somewhere between two and 14, generally.
Children learn to walk between ten months and two years, pretty much.
Why do you think I would know or think or name an age at which emotional maturity should kick in?

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Some people have a great deal of intrapersonal intelligence. They know themselves early on.
Some have lots in interpersonal intelligence and are good at reading others and negotiating with them.
Some people take longer to figure things out.

Some people might be great with interpersonal relations, but have a quick temper, or hormone storms, and so have certain times that it's more difficult. Some people might have a hard time being nice if they're sick, or hungry.

Parents should partner with children in helping them be aware of whatever factors are at play in various situation—having guests, visiting, getting sleep, drinking water, eating, learning ways to calm themselves. These things are different for different people, and part of the learning people ideally do with unschooling is learning how to manager their own moods and needs.

-=-When you mentioned that it is possible for a parent to "fail to coach a child", what is your idea of what that means? Coach them to be socially acceptable?-=-

YES!
That can't be surprising, can it?

-=- Meaning that if you let your child be abusive toward you, without coaching otherwise, that they will be abusive to others without realizing that there are consequences to that?-=-

It's possible.
It has happened.
Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay because they are gifted, or Aspergers, or understandably frustrated, or were mistreated in some former family or situation, or whatever justifications. Instead of helping a child be at peace in the world, some parents hlpe the world will accommodate the child's actions, instead of helping him out.

-=- Meaning that if you let your child be abusive toward you, without coaching otherwise, that they will be abusive to others without realizing that there are consequences to that?-=-

If a child is left to discover that there are consequences to being abusive, how long might that take? There are things that children might do without legal consequences that will be illegal in a teen or adult, and could result in jailtime or prison. That's an extreme example, but these are extremely basic questions.

-=-I am also curious to know what your ideas are about when yelling becomes abusive. Frequency? Volume? Content/context? -=-

I'm curious about the question. It seems legalistic. It seems if I answer, you might want to use it to justify some action of your own.
If the mother feels abused, she should ask that child to stop, or remove herself from the situation, or get help.
If the mother decides to find ways not to feel abused, in such a fashion that the child might escalate his behavior to get her attention, why would she do that?

Intent would be a factor, certainly. Awareness and expectation could matter.
-=-Frequency? Volume? Content/context? -=-

That can't be answered any more than "at what age does it stop being acceptable?"

I suppose if the mother has no interest in or ability to coach the child, she might want to hire a coach or counsellor. http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy

Sandra


semajrak@...

<<I'm finding myself pulling back from this sort of activity for fear that it will end up making us both upset, and I really don't want to do that.>>

Perhaps there's a pottery class or potter that has an open studio for children in your area?  It's a tough skill to try to learn without a little bit of guidance from someone who knows what they are doing.  It's a lot like learning to ride a bike.  Once you get it, you get it, but it does take some experimentation and practice and learning to get a feel for the dynamics/balance of the clay on the wheel.  Maybe a couple classes or one-on-ones with a potter would help your daughter get some idea what to feel for.  Maybe it would give you some relief from being her coach in pottery, if you are not that familiar with it yourself.  That would be hard if neither of you are particularly calm as you are learning.  

<<I understand that she's upset and frustrated by things not working out the way she wants, but I'm finding it really hard to be yelled at for running things frequently, (This has happened on several occasions over the last week, maybe 4 or 5 times?) and I'm not sure how to respond.>>

I have said to my son on the rare occasion that he has yelled at me that I understand he's frustrated but he may not yell at me.  I have also said that if he wants my help, he needs to be respectful.  My husband says similar things, but shorter—more to the point.  As a consequence of both of us being firm and clear, yet calm too, Ethan has rarely disrespected either one of us.  It could be his personality too, but I think clarity and consistency helps a lot.  Doug and I do not yell at each other.  That probably sets an example for Ethan to follow and learn from as well.

Karen James 

alohabun@...

It is hard to be yelled at, especially when you are trying to help!  

My youngest child (6) can get upset quickly and yell sometimes. When he gets frustrated at a game that he is trying to play for example, I offer help and take deep breaths and remind him to take deep breaths too. 

I've found that it helps him if I speak softer rather than louder most of the time and I try to remember to do that. Depending on my sense of his emotions and what caused the frustration or sense of feeling overwhelmed, I may hold him or hug him while speaking (or not speak), or bend down a bit and look directly in his eyes while we talk or move to a new environment. I figure out which to do by feel and by knowing him and by what has helped in the past. Experience and making mistakes and learning from them help - I take mental note of what helps him calm down and recenter. 

If I'm already in the process of helping him when he gets frustrated (maybe because I am not playing a game the way he envisioned or I am not skilled at it), I tell him I'm sorry and that I am doing the best I can. (When I'm feeling accused, it can be hard to not sound perturbed or resentful. But I try.) I also remind him that I am helping him and don't have to do so. I don't want to be yelled at and it's not nice to yell at someone, especially if they are trying to help. 

That is how I try to respond to my 6 year old. Each of my kids I respond to differently...some I might be able to talk more with or use a louder voice. It depends on the person and situation. 

Even though you wish your daughter didn't get upset so quickly or yell when she is frustrated, take a few deep breaths and try not to yell back yourself. Maybe that is the best she can do for right now. Perhaps she is yelling because that is all she can think to do when she gets so frustrated. Give her other ideas. Ask her to try taking a couple of deep breaths. 

Empathize or apologize if you made a mistake when you were trying to help and think about the best next step you can make. You might not fix things to her satisfaction, but you can still take the next best step from where you are. Let her see you are trying.

If you know you are helping her with a project or game the best way you can, and that she has such strong feelings inside at the moment, that may help you find the compassion to respond calmly to her and not take things personally or feel as stressed.   

I often find that if I can connect with my child by verbally stating something that he is feeling such as "I know you wished that xyz happened - and I wish it did too" ...something that lets him know you understand how he is feeling...that he softens and the frustration can ease or even dissipate.  Feeling understood seems to help him the most. And for me to do less talking rather than more.  

Something that my oldest daughter and I used to do was to write letters to each other. Maybe your daughter would appreciate a heartfelt note?  Not to address any particular situation, but to open up another avenue of communication.  It's kind of nice (in my opinion) to write a note to someone I care about or to read one that they left. It is another way to bring about a feeling of closeness. 

One last thing I can think of is trying to lighten the mood of the house overall. I tend to be more serious and my kids remind me that it's okay and so much more fun to be goofy and silly. Maybe finding a comedy to watch together (or anything she would be into) or to go out to see an entertainer of some sort would be amusing and help to create a lighter mood or open yourself up to being a little sillier. Keep seeking enjoyment. 

Try to view your role as helper when your daughter is having a hard moment because that is one of the times when our kids need us most. That doesn't mean to be okay with it if she is being mean toward you. (My grandma used to say, "Knock it off" when she wanted someone to stop doing or saying something.) But those kind of times can be opportunities to talk to her about what is acceptable and what isn't in society and what is hurtful and what can be said in a different way. Not in the heat of a moment, but when the time is right.

Laurie 

Sandra Dodd

-=-
~If your neighbor or a stranger came into your house and hit you or one of your children, would you have verbalized that you do not want to be hit, etc.?~

My child is not a stranger. They are young beings who need understanding and help managing big feelings.

~How about "There are limits to what I will accept.~
Another Mom might have different limits for herself and her child. I don't decide what her limits are, just mine. Is that more clear? -=-

No.
I was talking about the language you're using to write to us. it's once or twice removed from saying something direct and strong.

I verbalized that I did not want you to be so wimpy, but you started talking about children and limits.
I was talking about your writing "I verbalized that I do not want to be hit."

Say "Don't hit me."
Do you speak to your child in phrases like "I verbalized"? If so, that might be adding to frustration.

From the post to which I was responding: "I have asked for more kindness and less name calling or whatever the issue, and have verbalized that I do not want to be hit, etc."

You just asked? For LESS name calling? Some was still okay, but it was up to him to decide? And you don't want to be hit, but it's still up to him?

That's why I asked if you would speak to a neighbor or another adult that way. It's not strong. It's not defending your right to be safe and unattacked in your own home. It's not making it clear to the child that it's NOT okay to hit other people that way. (In self defense, maybe; to defend another person in an emergency, sure.)

-=-I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. -=-

When I write here—when any of the longtime writers write—it's for the benefit of anyone reading. We're talking about the ideas brought to the table. There is a victim, when there is abuse. We were talking about abuse (and you were trying to backpedal and say it wasn't; that was what made me think of denial).

And this, too, is two steps from solid: -=-I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. -=-
You don't need to "recall"—it's a written conversation.
You could have written "I didn't say "victimhood" or "denial."
Instead of
I don't recall
suggesting
victimhood or denial.

IF (just if) your regular mode of communication is to coat words in words and then have introductory phrases, that will very likely cause children not to understand you, first of all; not to take you seriously; and eventually not to listen to you.

Think of what you want to communicate and do it in three or five words. With feeling. Be the lead partner in your relationship. Take care of your children. Be solid.
That's for anyone, and everyone, who tends to fall into "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" instead of "HEY. Stop. Leave her alone."

Sandra

semajrak@...

<<I'm trying really hard to stay calm and not yell back (not always successfully!), and would love some things I could do instead.>>

Some ideas...

Take a deep breath and hold it in for a few seconds.  Then let it out slowly and all the way.  Do that a couple more times.  If your daughter asks what you are doing, tell her you are trying to calm down a bit.  Invite her to join you.  She might not want to, but she'll be able to see (hopefully) that it helps, and might consider trying it some time in the future.

Say "I'll help you when you stop yelling at me" and stand back a bit.  Don't walk away to punish her.  Make it clear that you are giving her room to express her feelings, and you'll help her when she's ready.  Maybe say "I'll help you when you're ready."

When she and you are calm (maybe driving in the car or something) share a story about a time when you were frustrated by something you really wanted to do but it wasn't coming together as planned.  Not a lecture or a lesson, but something that shows her that you understand what she's feeling and that she's not alone.

Depending on your daughter's personality and her needs in the moment, consider not jumping in right away to fix things for your daughter.  Give her a little room to ask for your help.  Ask "Can I help?"  Or offer one or two things, but be mindful of whether your offerings actually do help or exacerbate the situation.  With my son, sometimes when he's feeling really frustrated, my offering a bunch of suggestions on how to fix the situation makes him feel more frustrated.  Often he just really wants me to hear how he's feeling.  He doesn't want me to do anything about it—just be there for him.  That can be really hard for me because *I* want to help, and if I know I can, that makes it even more difficult to hold back.  But if *he* doesn't want my help, it is rude of me to just go ahead and do it anyway.  What he needs is for me to hear him and be okay with his frustration, maybe help him move through the frustration a little more easily just by providing company for him.  Respecting his feelings helps set an example for him to learn from.  When he feels respected I think it's easier to treat others with respect as well.  

If your daughter is open to the idea, try to be playful.  This needs some tact and consideration though.  Don't make fun of the situation, but maybe a well placed "Doh!" or smile or some exaggerated silliness might make things lighter.  Some people really don't like that though, so be mindful, and apologize if it's not welcome or well received.

Don't yell.  Just don't.  It really doesn't work to yell "Don't yell!" at someone.  If you think you're going to yell, take a washroom break or get a glass of water.  Tap dance while you're alone.  Tell yourself jokes.  Lighten up.  Remind yourself what your goal is—to help your daughter learn what she needs to learn to do what she wants to do, in that moment, and in the future when she's on her own.

Karen James 



 


aukjenoorman@...

 Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay because they

> are gifted, or Aspergers, or understandably frustrated, or were mistreated
> in some former family or situation, or whatever justifications. Instead of
> helping a child be at peace in the world, some parents hlpe the world will
> accommodate the child's actions, instead of helping him out.


Every time I read something like this I feel angry. My son has Asperger's. It is a lifelong disability. He is in fact not abusive to anyone, the only person he ever hurts is himself, but he reacts with lots of emotion at times when he feels overwhelmed. He has no choice about this. Asperger's is the reason he behaves as he does, not the justification. He is learning with time (he is 12 now) how to better manage himself and has learnt to calm himself down to an extent, and gaining more and more insight into his own and other people's feelings and behaviour; we talk a lot and I help him in many ways every single day and life can be hard for him and us all.  If a child has a physical disability no one would suggest that  a parent is justifying their child's limitation(s) because he or she has a disability. It is exactly the same with Asperger's.

I am sure my post will be shredded by some but I decided to post anyway in defence of Asperger's- which here in the UK thankfully is recognised as a disability under the Equality Act - and rightly so.


K Pennell

Sandra wasn't singling out individuals with Aspergers, she was pointing out reasons some parents give to excuse a child's bad behavior. That is one of them. You may handle inappropriate behavior a bit differently for a child with a disability. The learning curve may be longer. It's very individual. There is a difference between handling it differently, and excusing it. There are parents who excuse kids bad behavior. There are parents who justify intolerable behavior because their child has a disability or big emotions or a difficult past. I've seen children literally assaulting adults or other kids, and the Mom saying "oh, honey, are you having a bad day?"

No. He's assaulting people. It needs to stop.



From: "aukjenoorman@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Getting angry at people who are helping



 Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay because they
> are gifted, or Aspergers, or understandably frustrated, or were mistreated
> in some former family or situation, or whatever justifications. Instead of
> helping a child be at peace in the world, some parents hlpe the world will
> accommodate the child's actions, instead of helping him out.

Every time I read something like this I feel angry. My son has Asperger's. It is a lifelong disability. He is in fact not abusive to anyone, the only person he ever hurts is himself, but he reacts with lots of emotion at times when he feels overwhelmed. He has no choice about this. Asperger's is the reason he behaves as he does, not the justification. He is learning with time (he is 12 now) how to better manage himself and has learnt to calm himself down to an extent, and gaining more and more insight into his own and other people's feelings and behaviour; we talk a lot and I help him in many ways every single day and life can be hard for him and us all.  If a child has a physical disability no one would suggest that  a parent is justifying their child's limitation(s) because he or she has a disability. It is exactly the same with Asperger's.
I am sure my post will be shredded by some but I decided to post anyway in defence of Asperger's- which here in the UK thankfully is recognised as a disability under the Equality Act - and rightly so.





jwaller222@...

Hi,

I don't think that Sandra stated that Asperger's does not exist or cannot be the root of certain behavior. She wrote, "Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay... instead of helping him out."

It seems from your post that you are working with your son on his behavior, so I see no dischord between your experience and Sandra's statement.

To say, "...no one would suggest that a parent is justifying their child's limitation(s) because he or she has a disability..." is short-sighted. I imagine that some folks use disabilities as an excuse to ignore opportunities for coaching because they don't want to put the time in. It is easier for some to blame the disability. There are lots of lazy parents out there, and some have kids with disabilities. No one said that you are one of them.

Respectfully,

Jennifer

Sandra Dodd

-=-Some parents tell their children that their behavior is okay because they
are gifted, or Aspergers, or understandably frustrated, or were mistreated
in some former family or situation, or whatever justifications. Instead of
helping a child be at peace in the world, some parents hope the world will
accommodate the child's actions, instead of helping him out-=-

I had a typo; sorry: "some parents hlpe the world will" should have been "hope."
And the last "helping him out" referred to parents, not to the world. It could have been worded more carefully.

-=-Every time I read something like this I feel angry. My son has Asperger's. It is a lifelong disability. -=-

I'm sorry your son has Asperger's. If you're telling him that bad behavior is okay, and you're not helping him at all, then I think that's a problem.

-=-He is in fact not abusive to anyone,-=-

Then did the original statement apply in your case?

-=- ... he reacts with lots of emotion at times when he feels overwhelmed.
He has no choice about this. Asperger's is the reason he behaves as he does, not the justification.-=-

The "justification" was not about the child, but about parental attitude, behavior, action. IF a parent is NOT helping a child to be at peace in the world, and IF a parent is not helping the child out, THEN I think they're using the condition or label or disability or unfortunate circumstance as a justification for not coaching the child to do better.

-=-He is learning with time (he is 12 now) how to better manage himself and has learnt to calm himself down to an extent, and gaining more and more insight into his own and other people's feelings and behaviour; we talk a lot and I help him in many ways every single day and life can be hard for him and us all. -=-

So you expressed anger even though my statement didn't apply to you?

-=-If a child has a physical disability no one would suggest that a parent is justifying their child's limitation(s) because he or she has a disability. It is exactly the same with Asperger's. -=-

If a parent whose child has a disability chooses to homeschool and the parent does not help the child compensate for and live well with that limitation, then perhaps the child would be better off in school with professionals. If a parent does not have the desire or the will or the ability to help a child, homeschooling might not be a good idea.

When a child for ANY reason is yelling or hitting people in the family, the way the parent responds in the moment, and over time, could make the difference between a future marriage and career, or frustration, running away, prison. This is true with or without government actions.

Stating that Asperger's is "a lifelong disability" and "rightly so" might cause some people to relax and decide that their child has no choice, and can't learn to be better—that age and experience won't help, because it's lifelong, and it's a disability, and so the parent might not bother to coach and advise and assist so much.

Some parents take that stance because of divorce, or genetics, or religious rejection of a trait in a child, or because they want to be the mother of a gifted child or an indigo child, and so they stand by and smile, or stand by and scowl, because they don't want to or they don't know how to or they are unwilling to guide a child, as a partner, into acceptable, helpful, generous interpersonal paths.

People can be as mad or self-justifying or as political or as religious as they want to be, and reject or enable their children's behavior as they want to. Meanwhile, what I intend to continue to do for people who want to be unschoolers in the way it's discussed here, is to encourage them to be each child's partner, to help him live peacefully and joyfully, and to learn in his own way as happily and as richly as they can arrange for it to happen.

Your child is twelve. I've been helping other people see and understand unschooling for nearly twenty four years now. Some in person (local weekly meet-ups, when my kids were young), some who came to visit or to a conference, and many online have had children they or professionals had identified as Asperger's. Some were helped more by the parents than others.

If I had never seen a parent justify bad behavior and say "oh well, it can't be helped" when the child could have been helped, or others could have been less affected, I wouldn't even have the idea in my mind. I've seen a range of great, good, not great relationships, and I've seen how they affect the unschooling environment in the family and the peace and development of the individuals and their siblings.

I've seen hands-off, hands-up parents use various justifications for not helping a child do better. I've seen them blame other things, other people. I don't like to see it recommended in discussions I've organized and invited people to.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

This is what I meant:

-=-There are parents who excuse kids bad behavior. There are parents who justify intolerable behavior because their child has a disability or big emotions or a difficult past. I've seen children literally assaulting adults or other kids, and the Mom saying "oh, honey, are you having a bad day?"

-=-No. He's assaulting people. It needs to stop.-=-

K Pennell and jwaller both said it more directly and simply than I did. :-) (Thanks.)

Part of partnership is that both people are part of the partnership.
Part of team is that the whole family (if they become a team) rises or falls on the merits or behaviors of individuals.

That's not about unschooling. That's about life, culture, human nature, normal reality.

Sometimes a team leader or senior partner needs to say "NO. Stop."

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<<<<<<<<<Think of what you want to communicate and do it in three or five words. With feeling. Be the lead partner in your relationship. Take care of your children. Be solid.
That's for anyone, and everyone, who tends to fall into "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" instead of "HEY. Stop. Leave her alone." >>>>>>>>>


I have seen this a lot ( probably even did a few times when my son was little, maybe)
I think parents are trying to be gentle but they are forgetting that the other child is being hit ( or the person getting hit /yelled/cursed at) and THAT is not gentle.

 Hey Cut that out! Stop! and NO! are words to be used not not feared by mindful parents when they are needed.

I want my kids to learn that too.

Interestingly Gigi ( then 8 years old) and I went on a spooky Halloween trail last year and when a creepy clown stood in our way she yelled with a very firm voice:

"NO. Stop! " to the person playing it and it did stop him in his tracks.

I do not think he expected a child so determined and  strong.   It was pretty cool.  Sure that was a safe place but I want her to be able to feel that strong and not be  wishy washy about her boundaries so I am not with mine.


One time my mom trying to be gentle was letting my son ( then under 2 years old) hit her. When I saw it I stopped him and asked her what was she thinking . She said he was frustrated and she wanted him to feel safe venting his feelings. What about her safety? what was he learning? That hitting others like that is  acceptable when you are frustrated? That being hit by a frustrated person is OK?  I told her to not ever let him hit her again and to tell him to stop and stop him.
Thankfully he was not a kid that was into hitting  a lot like I have seen some way into their older years.

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 9:26 AM, "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:


 
This is what I meant:

-=-There are parents who excuse kids bad behavior. There are parents who justify intolerable behavior because their child has a disability or big emotions or a difficult past. I've seen children literally assaulting adults or other kids, and the Mom saying "oh, honey, are you having a bad day?"

-=-No. He's assaulting people. It needs to stop.-=-

K Pennell and jwaller both said it more directly and simply than I did. :-) (Thanks.)

Part of partnership is that both people are part of the partnership.
Part of team is that the whole family (if they become a team) rises or falls on the merits or behaviors of individuals.

That's not about unschooling. That's about life, culture, human nature, normal reality.

Sometimes a team leader or senior partner needs to say "NO. Stop."

Sandra


naomicfisher@...

<<Sometimes a team leader or senior partner needs to say "NO. Stop." >>

I am one of those parents whose child gets easily overwhelmed and assaults other people sometimes. It can be completely unpredictable - sitting next to someone on a train once, an unknown child over the other side of the playground another time. We have largely stopped going out and very rarely to crowded places as they clearly make him very stressed and anxious. We also rarely have visitors to the house for the same reason. I am also one of those parents who says things like 'you are really stressed and overwhelmed ' to my son, whilst I prevent him from hitting someone. The reason I do this is not because I am justifying his behaviour but because I have found that when I say 'NO, stop' firmly he becomes more agitated, more violent and harder to contain. At home we spend a lot of time helping him manage his emotions and behaviour, but he still gets overwhelmed and is unpredictable.

Sometimes parents do not say 'No, stop' for good reasons, not because they are justifying or excusing behaviour. I absolutely do not think my son should assaulting people, but I also know that saying No firmly does not stop him from doing so, and can make things worse.

Sandra Dodd

-=- I am also one of those parents who says things like 'you are really stressed and overwhelmed ' to my son, whilst I prevent him from hitting someone. -=-

You didn't say how old he is.
If he's old enough to understand "stressed and overwhelmed," maybe that's still too many words to use. And it does attempt to justify. It says that it's happening because he is stressed and overwhelmed.

But the original question, I think, is a child hitting and yelling at his own mom at home. If she just lets it go by without suggesting alternatives (which I'm not saying you do, which I am saying at least one poster has indicated that she does sometimes), It doesn't seem to me to be a good unschooling-partnership example to encourage in a discussion such as this one.

I'm sorry for parents whose children are physical that way, and many will outgrow it as they learn more about themselves. There are many children without any condition or disability whatsoever who have frustrating stages because their understanding has moved ahead of their physical abilities, or vice versa, and growing up is often that way, back and forth, for a while.

Sandra

Rinelle

<<I have found that when I say 'NO, stop' firmly he becomes more agitated, more violent and harder to contain. >>
 
This is actually the problem I’m having I think. I do say to my daughter that yelling is not appropriate, and she yells back that she’s not yelling. Or she will shout that she will yell as much as she wants to.
 
Where do you go after that?
 
(Just to clarify, though she will occasionally throw something (not at people), it’s mostly verbal, not physical.)
 
Tamara

Sandra Dodd

-=- Or she will shout that she will yell as much as she wants to.-=-

I would say "Then you need to do it in your own room, because I want this room to be more peaceful," or "When you're grown and have your own house, then you can yell as much as you want."

And depending what time it is and how near your neighbors are, it might be somewhere between rude and illegal.

You might ask her who told her she can yell as much as she wants to.

Some unschoolers make the gigantic mistake of telling their children "You can do whatever you want to" (when they move from school to homeschooling, or homeschooling to unschooling). Some say 'it's just as much your house as ours." It's not true, and it's not good.

If that's not the case here, you don't need to be defensive. There ARE people who have done that, and some who haven't who might like to have a reminder NOT to.

Sandra

Ali Zeljo

<<I have found that when I say 'NO, stop' firmly he becomes more agitated, more violent and harder to contain. >>
 
This is actually the problem I’m having I think. I do say to my daughter that yelling is not appropriate, and she yells back that she’s not yelling. Or she will shout that she will yell as much as she wants to.
 
Where do you go after that?

My son is similar.  When he is at the height of anger,  he will almost never respond by calming down if I respond with passion, anger, or firm boundaries.  That type of response usually fuels his fire.  If I join his heightened state, then he continues to go higher and higher.  We are all better off if I model slow breathing and a calm demeanor.  Sometimes he accepts a hug and dispels his rage into the embrace, but often cannot.   There is that initial build up of rage that is so hard to contain!  This is where my son is learning techniques to keep from bursting with screams or physical outbursts or violence.  

In the situation you describe, to me it sounds like a yelling match.  I would stop responding verbally at all and either sit calmly or leave the room if you think it's safe.  It's most helpful to wait until she is calm and then talk about that feeling of tension in the body.  Help her become aware of that feeling and tell her there are things she can learn to do to calm it down before she says or does things that she regrets.   This is her job to work on now because yelling at people isn't sociable, or acceptable.

My son and I have often made plans for the next time he gets angry- what I can do to help and what he agrees to try.  

Ali


Jorie Denny

~ verbalized that I did not want you to be so wimpy, but you started talking about children and limits.
I was talking about your writing "I verbalized that I do not want to be hit."~

~Say "Don't hit me."
Do you speak to your child in phrases like "I verbalized"? If so, that might be adding to frustration.~

No, I did not say that was what I said to him. I used those words to describe what I did. I did not quote myself intentionally because there are many different ways in which I might go about verbalizing what I want. I was trying to be brief. It was a brief sentence to get the point across that I use my voice/words to communicate to my child about not being hit. An actual example might be "Stop, I do not want to be hit" or "Do not hit me" or "I don't want you to hit me" all of those are examples of how I might "verbalize" to him that I do not want to be hit. There are times when I have started by validating his feelings and then told him to stop or redirected him. "I can see you're really angry and I don't want to be hit", "Wow, you're really angry, hit the pillow instead". All of these have worked to stop or redirect him to an appropriate target. 

~You just asked? For LESS name calling? Some was still okay, but it was up to him to decide? And you don't want to be hit, but it's still up to him?~

No. I am not asking in the form of a question. I am asking in the form of a request. That does not mean to me that I am expecting a reply and/or that I am giving him the option. In the same way that I described that I "verbalized", I used the word "asked" as I descriptor to mean that a request was made. If I said "Please stop hitting me", I could describe that as having asked him to stop hitting me. He was asked to stop hitting. 

In regards to using the word "less", I mean that in terms of over-all. I want less hitting and name calling over-all, So, over all, I'm asking for (read requesting) more of what I want and less of what I don't want. I also don't see it as an absolute, No hitting or name calling again, ever. That seems unrealistic and dominant paradigm. But when I speak to my children I don't say "I want less hitting." 

~When I write here—when any of the longtime writers write—it's for the benefit of anyone reading. We're talking about the ideas brought to the table. There is a victim, when there is abuse. We were talking about abuse (and you were trying to backpedal and say it wasn't; that was what made me think of denial).~ 

I was not "backpedaling", I honestly did not see it as abuse (based on the description) and she did not call it abuse. The way I read it, her daughter was getting very frustrated and yelling at her Mom and blaming her for things going wrong or being ruined. Tamara was finding it difficult to stay calm and respond without yelling back. She wanted some suggestions of some things she could do instead. She also wanted to change the dynamic because she saw a pattern repeating and wanted to stop the cycle. That was how I perceived what I read. I used the word abuse because sometimes being in a stressful situation with lots of emotions, being yelled at can feel like abuse (especially if you're in that mindset) when it might really be a very frustrated child that could use some empathy and understanding and later, coaching. I also don't want to negate the possibility that she feels that it is abusive. That is up to her to decide. I just didn't see it that way.  


~And this, too, is two steps from solid: -=-I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. -=-
You don't need to "recall"—it's a written conversation.  
You could have written "I didn't say "victimhood" or "denial." 
Instead of
I don't recall
suggesting
victimhood or denial.~

It would not make sense to write "I didn't say "victimhood" or "denial". When nobody said that I had written those words. It was implied that I had suggested those things, not that I had typed those words.  I did not write words that said I was suggesting victimhood or denial but something I wrote could have given you the impression that I was suggesting it. So maybe I could have used the word "think". "I did not think I suggested..." or I did not intend to suggest. I think it was still clear what I was communicating. You call it not being solid. I call it leaving room for having a different opinion. 

~I don't know from that much description, but I think it involves awareness and intent. And if a mother takes a victim role, that won't help anyone. And if the mother denies being victimized and justifies bullying behavior in a child, how is she helping him learn to live more peacefully in the world?~

I did not suggest that anyone take a victim role or deny bullying and justify the behavior. But it seems as thought you might have read into what I wrote as having suggested that. Or maybe this was totally unrelated to what I wrote and you were just bringing it up as a hypothetical. 

~That's for anyone, and everyone, who tends to fall into "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" instead of "HEY. Stop. Leave her alone." ~

Sometimes I use one version, sometimes the other. It depends on the situation. They are equally valid responses depending on the moment and the child. I don't think anyone who wants to take a more peaceful approach is wrong for doing so and it is still possible to be "solid" AND reassure your child that you have some understanding and empathy for their feelings. Saying "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" does not justify anyone's actions, or deny bullying behavior. It recognizes that we all get disregulated sometimes and need help getting back to center without shaming a child for having feelings they weren't able to manage in that moment. (which can often make matters worse) It's not calling it right that they hit either. 

~But the original question, I think, is a child hitting and yelling at his own mom at home. If she just lets it go by without suggesting alternatives (which I'm not saying you do, which I am saying at least one poster has indicated that she does sometimes), It doesn't seem to me to be a good unschooling-partnership example to encourage in a discussion such as this one.~

IF you are referring to me being the "one poster". I did not indicate that I did not suggest alternatives. Other people were already making suggestions of that nature. I was simply offering a different perspective on the mindset she could choose during the yelling that might help her stay focused and calm (and not get triggered and yell back) so that she could actually attempt to put into action whatever method she then chose to implement to remedy the situation. I was trying to offer something that might be a helpful piece of the puzzle. Not a total solution, but something that might aide in the implementing of her chosen solution.  

Mindset can make a huge difference in staying calm instead of reactionary. I find it helps me. That's all. 


J;D

On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-
~If your neighbor or a stranger came into your house and hit you or one of your children, would you have verbalized that you do not want to be hit, etc.?~

My child is not a stranger. They are young beings who need understanding and help managing big feelings.

~How about "There are limits to what I will accept.~
 Another Mom might have different limits for herself and her child. I don't decide what her limits are, just mine. Is that more clear? -=-

No.
I was talking about the language you're using to write to us. it's once or twice removed from saying something direct and strong.

I verbalized that I did not want you to be so wimpy, but you started talking about children and limits.
I was talking about your writing "I verbalized that I do not want to be hit."

Say "Don't hit me."
Do you speak to your child in phrases like "I verbalized"? If so, that might be adding to frustration.

From the post to which I was responding: "I have asked for more kindness and less name calling or whatever the issue, and have verbalized that I do not want to be hit, etc."

You just asked? For LESS name calling? Some was still okay, but it was up to him to decide? And you don't want to be hit, but it's still up to him?

That's why I asked if you would speak to a neighbor or another adult that way. It's not strong. It's not defending your right to be safe and unattacked in your own home. It's not making it clear to the child that it's NOT okay to hit other people that way. (In self defense, maybe; to defend another person in an emergency, sure.)

-=-I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. -=-

When I write here—when any of the longtime writers write—it's for the benefit of anyone reading. We're talking about the ideas brought to the table. There is a victim, when there is abuse. We were talking about abuse (and you were trying to backpedal and say it wasn't; that was what made me think of denial).

And this, too, is two steps from solid: -=-I don't recall suggesting victimhood or denial. -=-
You don't need to "recall"—it's a written conversation.
You could have written "I didn't say "victimhood" or "denial."
Instead of
I don't recall
suggesting
victimhood or denial.

 IF (just if) your regular mode of communication is to coat words in words and then have introductory phrases, that will very likely cause children not to understand you, first of all; not to take you seriously; and eventually not to listen to you.

Think of what you want to communicate and do it in three or five words. With feeling. Be the lead partner in your relationship. Take care of your children. Be solid.
That's for anyone, and everyone, who tends to fall into "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" instead of "HEY. Stop. Leave her alone."

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-No. I am not asking in the form of a question. I am asking in the form of a request. That does not mean to me that I am expecting a reply and/or that I am giving him the option.-=-

If there's not an option, don't call it "a request." Don't pretend he has an option if he doesn't. That would piss me off, if I were a kid.

A request IS a question.

Instead of writing more (and you're writing A LOT), please
Read a little
Try a little
Wait a while
Watch

-=-If I said "Please stop hitting me", I could describe that as having asked him to stop hitting me. He was asked to stop hitting. -=-

It gives him the option NOT to stop hitting you.

-=- But when I speak to my children I don't say "I want less hitting." -=-

When you decided to write to this group, you said "less."

If you could read this paragraph aloud to yourself (but aloud, for real), I think you might see what some of the problem is.

-=-It would not make sense to write "I didn't say "victimhood" or "denial". When nobody said that I had written those words. It was implied that I had suggested those things, not that I had typed those words. I did not write words that said I was suggesting victimhood or denial but something I wrote could have given you the impression that I was suggesting it. So maybe I could have used the word "think". "I did not think I suggested..." or I did not intend to suggest. I think it was still clear what I was communicating. You call it not being solid. I call it leaving room for having a different opinion. -=-

The guidelines for posting in this group say this (and a bit more, but not much):

ALL posts should be
• honest
• proofread
• sincere
• clear

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS

Write exactly what you mean, and what is true, after thinking about it carefully. Write it in such a way that others will understand it.
More words is not the answer. Simple clarity is good, but first a write must be clear internally. "The form of a request" is a question.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Saying "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" does not justify anyone's actions, or deny bullying behavior. It recognizes that we all get disregulated sometimes-=-

-=--=-Saying "Well, sweetie, I understand that you might be feeling frustrated, but your sister doesn't want to be hit and when you yell it hurts mommy's ears, so please find a way to be more peaceful" does not justify anyone's actions, or deny bullying behavior.-=-

It doesn't get heard. It becomes wallpaper blah blah blah blah in a sing-songie tone of voice. And the sister is still being hit during the speech. And the other child is thinking the mother is a wimp.

http://sandradodd.com/tone
From that link (which has more and other, about tone of voice), first me, then Dan Vilter:

Even the nicest of words can be ruined, though, if they're spoken in a condescending, treacly way. It's not bad for infants, and it's great for French poodles. It's that talking-to-a-French-poodle voice, and the thoughts that go with it, that should be avoided when parents are talking to their children. Dan Vilter shared this story on the AlwaysLearning list in 2001:

At a park day, we were having a discussion about the usefulness of praise and sincerity. The unschoolers in the group were trying to point out the fallacy of over and insincere praise, and indirectly about treating your children as people first. After much talk getting nowhere, one of the other unschooling parents turned to me and in the French poodle voice started thanking me for all the things I had done for the group that day. Something like,"Oh Dan, thank you for bringing the stove for hot cocoa. You did such a good job setting it up and heating the water! You're so strong carrying that big jug of water all by yourself!" Everyone had a good laugh and the point was succinctly made.

(It was Pam Sorooshian who said what he's quoting, that day at their meet-up, to demonstrate.)

-=- It recognizes that we all get disregulated sometimes-=-

"Disregulated is another two-steps-from-clarity term.

We should not be "regulated" in the first place, so to be "disregulated" is far, far from making a thoughtful decision.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation

Sandra