kgharriman1@...

Just looking around our home, we have oodles of books, a whole cupboard full of games and puzzles, various art and craft options; the girls have lots of barbies, monster high dolls, baby dolls, sylvanian families... etc etc. they each have an ipod.  Lots of things that take up lots of room but only see the light of day for a play very occasionally. They have unlimited access to the internet on the pc and the tv. We don't have a video game box thing as yet (either a wii or an xbox). And yet our eldest (9) gets bored and lonely and says there's nothing to do. She spends lots of time watching tutorials on youtube (makeup at the moment, but she has enjoyed other subjects on there too) and sometimes plays with things and sometimes reads her book (I recently bought her a chapter book that's focussed on her main interest at the moment which she's really enjoying at night time).


So, while I step over all these toys, clothes and books in our house and try to remember the last time they were played with or looked at I wonder whether its possible to have TOO much choice.


I did read Simplicity Parenting a couple of years ago which I did find wonderful at that time although somewhat overwhelming to address all our stuff, and proceeded to get rid of many things in our house. The stuff has since crept back in again as I try to offer more choices. So more things get bought and acquired. And we're back to a cluttered house. When there isn't much to choose from its amazing how creative and resourceful the children can be. When they surrounded by lots of stuff they seem to switch and not see any of it.


So, as I understand it, unschooling is about providing lots of choices, but do you think its possible to provide TOO many choices?

Joyce Fetteroll

> On Nov 7, 2014, at 4:52 AM, kgharriman1@... wrote:
>
> And yet our eldest (9) gets bored and lonely and says there's nothing to do.

The image you painted is of you filling her life with stuff then watching as you wait for her to play with it. And when she doesn't play with that, you give her more.

I think she isn't bored and lonely. She's lonely and bored.

I think the problem isn't too much stuff but lack of connection. How much joining in are you doing? How much one on one opportunities are you creating? How often does she get together with friends? How many opportunities does she have to be with kids? Or others who like what she does?

To complicate matters, she's also 9 which is preteen. Expect some dissatisfaction and angst. She's transitioning between kid interests and teen interests. The kid interests don't sparkle as much as they used to and she's frustrated by that. The teen interests are curiosities but she isn't quite interested enough. All that will slowly change as the months go by and she grows towards teen interests, which will often be weighted towards the social.

Joyce

Jennifer Thomson

Hello, Have you tried rotating stuff in and out of storage?  We've had some success with that.  After 6 months,  items seem "new" again and it's out from under foot!!
Best,
Jenn (new to list and also figuring this all out)

tania

my children (6 and 2) have lots and lots of toys and movies and books
and they do play resourceful and creative. I do buy/organize lots of new
stuff and with some things we don't play much (for example the wooden
railway). we exchange it with other toys or take it to the fleamarket.
but the vast majority of our stuff is in use and appreciated.

my older child can be bored and it can come from a lack of attention, or
from insecurity. so it comes from too little and not from too much.
contact (physical contact and attention) helps.

I do make an effort to keep the stuff organized and tidy, so we have
space to do things. and I repare and sort - always careful that I don't
disturb their play (meaning putting away stuff they would still go on
playing with).

I did find out though, that it is much less work for me if we don't have
40 towels and instead only the amount we actually use. same for sheets
and cups and cuttlery and all things like that. I don't keep everything
anymore, hoping one day i might use it. we moved a lot in the last years
that helped too getting rid of this and that. but this rule - "less is
better" - does not apply on toys or books or movies.

Robyn Coburn

I think the answer is yes and no.

It can be too much choice when a very young child is overwhelmed with too many offerings all at once.

And it is possible that you hit the nail on the head when you said that if there is too much out they don't see any of it. There is a phenomenon called "clutter blindness", and it might be that there IS too much out at any time which becomes a blur. 

You mentioned stepping over things. That leads me to think you have a storage/organization problem, not a "too much choice interferes with learning" problem. 

There is a danger in reading books that are not unschooling based, which not having read it myself, I am guessing "Simplicity Parenting" is not. A lot of parenting literature cloaks the conventional strategies of control and manipulation in pretty sounding - pretty to parents - philosophies like voluntary simplicity. Ooh it's so nice to think of a clean and spacious home. Sure it is! But if your kids feel pressured to get rid of things because you don't have any better storage ideas, that is a barrier to unschooling.

Some kids love having and owning stuff. My daughter has been like that her whole life. Others are less sentimental about "things" and are happy to let them go. My neighbor's kids seemed to be like that. 

For 16 years, all of Jayn's life until one year ago, we lived in a one bedroom apartment. I had a supremely organized storage system, which did mean putting some of my precious reference and vintage books into storage to make room on the shelves. I used zippered bins with labels to categorize and store the 350 Barbie sized dolls that Jayn had (has) and related accessories. They were from Ikea and designed to fit exactly into the one particular shelving unit. I had (have) her and my art/craft supplies in clear bins - because she needs to see what she has to be inspired. I turned the "hall coat closet" into a toy storage area by putting another storage shelf unit (wire kitchen kind from Home Depot) into that room, and adding more shelves to the walls.

Once you have a storage system in place, it is easier to rotate the different toys in and out, so that they seem fresh. Jayn would return to some of her "little girl" toys after years and play with them in a whole different way. 

I took charge of the putting away and maintaining the organization as my service to her. Sometimes a game would stay out on the coffee table or the middle of the floor for a day or so, but as soon as I noticed her attention had waned - or we had people coming over - I would ask her if I could put it away. Usually she would say yes. We had several really long term art projects or doll games that we would take up again when she wanted - like our ongoing Barbie or Dynamite Girls detective mysteries. (Which is actually writing when you think about it.)

It has only been in the last two or three years that Jayn started being completely, freely willing to get rid of many of her old toys. Originally I kept everything because she had a long term plan that has faded away. I'm still a bit sad about that and who knows, it might come back - remember her doll museum idea I have talked about? She gave some things to younger neighbors, like her Dora dolls, when she saw how interested the little girls were. When we moved she was happy to donate a lot of her less special soft toys to the Goodwill. Her doll collecting has moved on to ball jointed dolls which are definitely aimed at adult collectors.

Sandra has a page about the emotion of boredom http://sandradodd.com/boredom/

===When there isn't much to choose from its amazing how creative and resourceful the children can be. When they surrounded by lots of stuff they seem to switch and not see any of it. ===

This idea that limited choices forces more creativity is very pervasive. It is used as an excuse by some people to refrain from giving children tools or supplies, even when they are affordable, with the underlying paradigm being that the opposite is "spoiled" kids. 

I agree that people are creative in the presence of limits. However they are also JUST AS CREATIVE in the presence of choices and abundance - and possibly happier and more satisfied with the outcomes. It's cool to build something out of sticks and leaves if that is all you have, but it doesn't stop you wishing you had legos. It is in the nature of humans to be creative thinkers and makers. 

Here is a secret (not really secret but something the limiters don't talk about) about the creative process - people doing creative work (including kids playing) will intentionally choose their own limits for the sake of exploring or pushing their own creativity. 

They will decide, as Jayn did, to make dolls furniture only from ordinary cardboard and stuff from the recycling box - even though she had a world of materials and ready made toys available to her. They will leave their legos in the box and construct something from sticks and leaves for its own sake. (And just because they built the stick and leaf tower, doesn't mean you then assume they don't need or want their legos anymore, I hope!)

Humans like to test their own ingenuity - this is why kids make up games with complex rules and sometimes even add more rules as the game proceeds. Like learning, creativity happens inside the learner - and the creative thinking going on inside your daughter's head as she watches you tube videos may not be obvious to you, but it is still happening. (Nice sketch paper, cool colored pencils and gel pens with a clipboard and easy to use containers)

If you look at your home as the creative canvas for learning, and organize and store things with the idea of accessibility, ease of return, and making a clean slate SO that your kids can fill it again, rather than always wishing it were always tidy, you will be happier.


Robyn L. Coburn

semajrak@...

<<unschooling is about providing lots of choices, but do you think its possible to provide TOO many choices?>>

Joyce said something once that was helpful for me to hear.  She said you could have the coolest collection of Harley Davidson stuff on the planet, but if a person isn't interested in Harley Davidson, they would still be bored.  I think having lots of choices is good.  I think having lots of choices that are well suited to the individual is better.  

Take your daughter to a department store where you both could get your makeup done.  As you share the day together listen to what she talks about.  Think about how you can bring more of what she's interested in into your days.  Perhaps she would like it if you were more present.  Perhaps she would like to have a friend to share her interests with.  

There are lots of fun things you can do with makeup.  You could set up a makeup table for her with a lighted mirror and a collection of colours and styles of makeup to experiment with.  You could offer to be her model. You could play with body paint.  You could play with Cosplay.  Maybe she would enjoy making perfumes or soaps.  Maybe she would enjoy a subscription to a magazine that is about fashion or makeup or body art.  Maybe she would enjoy playing the Sims where she could dress and stylize her own characters.  

As you get to know her interests and respond to them, she will feel more supported, less bored, and less lonely.  Aim for that, not whether or not you should live a certain way.  Look at your daughter.  She'll tell you what you need to know to make the most of unschooling.  :-)

Karen James.

Karen

When my daughter turned 9 she went through a period like you're describing. She was (and still is) in a bit of a transition. She was not as interested in her dolls and dress up but had not yet found new toys & games she enjoyed.

I found that what was most helpful to have available was me. More time with me seemed to fill that gap- even when the time was spent doing things that may not have been on the top of her "fun" list.

We went for walks, ran errands, played new board games geared toward older kids, and cuddled while watching Netflix.

Now she is doing new things with her old Barbies and dolls- like making YouTube videos of her play and posting to her "fans". I think it was not too many choices or toys, just an adjustment period that many kids (and adults) go through as their interests grow, change and expand.

Karen

Sent from my iPhone

Sandra Dodd

-=- do you think its possible to provide TOO many choices?-=-

Just provide one.

Then after that, see if there’s chance to provde another one.  It might be two seconds later, or two hours.

Sandra