treesock@...

I'm writing with a hypothetical question that has me puzzling some, and hoping some here may be willing to talk through it on the forum so I can listen in. It was inspired by this morning's "Just Add Light and Stir" entry: 

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2014/10/listening-and-safety.html

Reading it, I was reminded of a recent conversation between my husband, my mother and me about transgender children who approach their parents wanting to take hormones that allow them to develop as the gender they feel that they are rather than the one they are assigned at birth. We talked about this in light of the "helping them find safe ways to do what they want to do," and specifically about situations when the children are willing to accept the potential physical, mental, and emotional risks to themselves but their parents aren't comfortable with it.

So, the question is, what would it look like to safely and lovingly help a transgender child to live the way they feel is right for them, from an unschooling perspective, if that included wanting to change their hormones and the appearance of their bodies.

Thanks for your thoughts. Just so you know a bit of where I'm coming from, I have a sibling who lived as a different gender from about age 4 to about age 8. Even though this issue isn't present with my own children, it's one close to me, and I'm hoping to get clearer about what kinds of thoughts and actions are helpful in these situations.

Teresa


Vicki Dennis

I think that "living as a different gender"  is very different that taking powerful chemicals or doing irreversible surgery.
I would like to see more communities working to be accepting  of various combinations of practicing gender and the sex assigned at birth and the biological sex based on DNA.   

I think that the intersex child (for instance, having what seems to be a vagina but also internal testes) should be allowed to grow and to decide which gender they are in their brain.   By the same token trans children (whose genitals may be  ambiguous or whose DNA and genitalia perfectly match but whose brain says the opposite gender from the body should be allowed to "try on"  various gender models and neither shamed nor pushed to make an irrevocable decision.

We do not allow preteens or young teens the power of consent for sex; I think hormones or surgery have any more extensive lifelong effects.  

That said, I think that children are very capable of deciding whether the negative reactions from a transphobic and homophobic community are less or more than their own reactions as a result of 1) not being allowed to express what they consider their true identity and 2) actively lying about who they are.   I think the latter is soul-crushing at any age.

I have more to say but my main point is I believe parents can accept and support their children without the need for making radical changes while the child is still changing and maturing.    Accept them as they are right now.

vicki



On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, treesock@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

I'm writing with a hypothetical question that has me puzzling some, and hoping some here may be willing to talk through it on the forum so I can listen in. It was inspired by this morning's "Just Add Light and Stir" entry: 

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2014/10/listening-and-safety.html

Reading it, I was reminded of a recent conversation between my husband, my mother and me about transgender children who approach their parents wanting to take hormones that allow them to develop as the gender they feel that they are rather than the one they are assigned at birth. We talked about this in light of the "helping them find safe ways to do what they want to do," and specifically about situations when the children are willing to accept the potential physical, mental, and emotional risks to themselves but their parents aren't comfortable with it.

So, the question is, what would it look like to safely and lovingly help a transgender child to live the way they feel is right for them, from an unschooling perspective, if that included wanting to change their hormones and the appearance of their bodies.

Thanks for your thoughts. Just so you know a bit of where I'm coming from, I have a sibling who lived as a different gender from about age 4 to about age 8. Even though this issue isn't present with my own children, it's one close to me, and I'm hoping to get clearer about what kinds of thoughts and actions are helpful in these situations.

Teresa



Sandra Dodd

-=- It was inspired by this morning's "Just Add Light and Stir" entry:

http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2014/10/listening-and-safety.html

_________________

I'm really sorry! That WAS "this morning's" when the post was written. I shopped with Holly yesterday (to do with Marty's upcoming wedding" and then I slept early and long.

Yesterday's Just Add Light quote was
"When kids know their parents are on their sides, when parents help them find safe ways to do what they want to do, then kids do listen when we help them be safe."—Joyce Fetteroll

It came from http://sandradodd.com/partners/child

Depending on the parents' beliefs, "help" will be one thing or another (or a combination of many things, and maybe even some discouragement).

More and more research is coming along to show that the "two gender" model isn't as clear nor as valid as we've seen it. Some languages even allow for more than one reference (having an intermediary or "other" category.

When Holly filled out forms recently to apply for a visa to visit India, the gender question was not male or female. It was male, female, transgender.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-We do not allow preteens or young teens the power of consent for sex; I think hormones or surgery have any more extensive lifelong effects. -=-

Did you mean "have even more extensive lifelong effects"?

Someday, I suppose, there will be medical evidence that makes it more humane or sensible to begin hormones early (before puberty) that that time hasn't come yet.   I'm sure there are things we decide now, about children's health, that will someday be seen as ignorant and barbaric, and waiting until someone is grown for "gender reassignment" (a term that will probably be hooted at, in those future days) will be on the list.

But that's not now.

-=-That said, I think that children are very capable of deciding whether the negative reactions from a transphobic and homophobic community are less or more than their own reactions as a result of 1) not being allowed to express what they consider their true identity and 2) actively lying about who they are.   I think the latter is soul-crushing at any age. -=-

They're capable of guessing, but they might also live in a community in which expressing themselves is unsafe for the child and perhaps for the family, and that could be a consideration for some families.    Soul-crushing is less irrevocable than skull crushing or public humiliation.  Sometimes it's possible that a family might need to be supportive in private and advise toward ambiguity, at best, in public.  

My niece  (just turned 30) was in a play recently that's basically a Shakespeare sampler.

Her description in the program was:
Gina Trujillo is a writer, comic book artist, and all around geek.  Her dramatic tendencies and androgynous look have landed her in a wide range of roles, both on and off the state.  She is older than she looks and this is due to the fact that she refuses to grow up, ever, resolving to become Peter Pan instead.

She played more male roles than female that night, and both equally well. :-)

Gina was never a feminine girl, though she was a great collector of My Little Ponies. Her being unschooled made her life easier, and she's been in a relationship for fifteen years with another homeschooled girl—though at first they were best friends, and it gradually evolved to be a life partnership.  I knew before her mom did, because they talked to me when they were 17 or so about how others in their hometown (where I grew up, too) called them lesbians, and were not always nice.  I took it as a hypothetical, general request for assistance, and brainstormed with them things they might say or do to dodge nonsense, but didn't ask any more questions.  I knew by their glances and the relaxation of their shoulders at certain points in the conversation that it was not hypothetical.  

Female to male is not the same level of problem male to female is.  A girl wearing black and having short hair and playing male parts in Shakespeare plays is not a very big deal.  

A girl who avoided high school locker rooms and whose family wasn't pressuring her to be more "girlie" is going to have an easier go than a family with hopes of pink and sparkles, and school teasing and bullying.

Sandra

Misa Knight


<<

I think that "living as a different gender"  is very different that taking powerful chemicals or doing irreversible surgery.
I would like to see more communities working to be accepting  of various combinations of practicing gender and the sex assigned at birth and the biological sex based on DNA.   

I think that the intersex child (for instance, having what seems to be a vagina but also internal testes) should be allowed to grow and to decide which gender they are in their brain.   By the same token trans children (whose genitals may be  ambiguous or whose DNA and genitalia perfectly match but whose brain says the opposite gender from the body should be allowed to "try on"  various gender models and neither shamed nor pushed to make an irrevocable decision.

We do not allow preteens or young teens the power of consent for sex; I think hormones or surgery have any more extensive lifelong effects.
>>

Typically, young children are not put on "hormones", per se. They are put on something more akin to hormone-blockers. This is, almost universally, considered a better option if there's any indication that this is a course they'd like to continue along. And these "hormone blockers" are also given to children who are NOT transgendered but who are, for whatever reason, experiencing puberty too early.

The benefit of hormone blockers is that they are completely reversible and, if discontinued, even fertility levels can be normal. A better descriptor can be found here: http://transhealth.ucsf.edu/trans?page=protocol-youth .

The question of surgery is another matter (one that is usually moot, anyway, as most doctors would not consider doing this type of surgery on a younger child and you are typically required to live as the gender you "present as" for a good length of time). Also, keep in mind, surgery is not always desired as part of "transitioning". In fact, most of my friends who are transgender have specifically chosen not to have surgery (with the notable exception of chest reduction - which, if they're on hormones pre-puberty, should not be an issue).

- Misa

Vicki Dennis



On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 4:09 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

-=-We do not allow preteens or young teens the power of consent for sex; I think hormones or surgery have any more extensive lifelong effects. -=-


Did you mean "have even more extensive lifelong effects"?

++++++  Yes, I meant still more, even more, possibly even way more!.   Using a laptop keyboard which requires typing corrections about every third word.   Glad you let me clarify.

Someday, I suppose, there will be medical evidence that makes it more humane or sensible to begin hormones early (before puberty) that that time hasn't come yet.   I'm sure there are things we decide now, about children's health, that will someday be seen as ignorant and barbaric, and waiting until someone is grown for "gender reassignment" (a term that will probably be hooted at, in those future days) will be on the list.

++++
Activists are already moving away from "gender reassignment surgery" which replaced "sex reassignment surgery".   The politically correct or activist approved term these days is "gender confirmation surgery".  There are people now who are "de-transitioning" after suffering ill effects from years of hormones.   I am aware of more female to male transitions making that decision.

"Puberty blockers" are indeed popular now and there are medical professionals as well as activists who currently make the "more humane or sensible" argument.   I believe that there are more than two genders and also that there are endless gender "presentations". I would prefer working toward wider understanding that it is not necessary to force the body into a stereotypical mold.      I find that true for trans children and even for children with ambiguous genitalia.  Currently the push is to decide as soon as possible and then cut the body to fit the adult decision.

vicki



 

But that's not now.

-=-That said, I think that children are very capable of deciding whether the negative reactions from a transphobic and homophobic community are less or more than their own reactions as a result of 1) not being allowed to express what they consider their true identity and 2) actively lying about who they are.   I think the latter is soul-crushing at any age. -=-

They're capable of guessing, but they might also live in a community in which expressing themselves is unsafe for the child and perhaps for the family, and that could be a consideration for some families.    Soul-crushing is less irrevocable than skull crushing or public humiliation.  Sometimes it's possible that a family might need to be supportive in private and advise toward ambiguity, at best, in public.  

My niece  (just turned 30) was in a play recently that's basically a Shakespeare sampler.

Her description in the program was:
Gina Trujillo is a writer, comic book artist, and all around geek.  Her dramatic tendencies and androgynous look have landed her in a wide range of roles, both on and off the state.  She is older than she looks and this is due to the fact that she refuses to grow up, ever, resolving to become Peter Pan instead.

She played more male roles than female that night, and both equally well. :-)

Gina was never a feminine girl, though she was a great collector of My Little Ponies. Her being unschooled made her life easier, and she's been in a relationship for fifteen years with another homeschooled girl—though at first they were best friends, and it gradually evolved to be a life partnership.  I knew before her mom did, because they talked to me when they were 17 or so about how others in their hometown (where I grew up, too) called them lesbians, and were not always nice.  I took it as a hypothetical, general request for assistance, and brainstormed with them things they might say or do to dodge nonsense, but didn't ask any more questions.  I knew by their glances and the relaxation of their shoulders at certain points in the conversation that it was not hypothetical.  

Female to male is not the same level of problem male to female is.  A girl wearing black and having short hair and playing male parts in Shakespeare plays is not a very big deal.  

A girl who avoided high school locker rooms and whose family wasn't pressuring her to be more "girlie" is going to have an easier go than a family with hopes of pink and sparkles, and school teasing and bullying.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

Friday night, October 17:

http://www.logotv.com/shows/laverne_cox_presents_the_t_word/series.jhtml
http://www.mtv.com/news/1934064/laverne-cox-presents-the-t-word-documentary-premiere/

Laverne Cox Presents: The T Word
Documentary chronicling the challenges and trimphs of seven transgender youths as they navigate varying states of transitioning (I'm writing what People Magazine has).

MTV and Logo, 7: p.m. most places
http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2014/10/17/exclusive-laverne-cox-sounds-t-word

Maybe for those who see this afterwards, or years from now, it will be available to see somehow, somewhere.

Vicki Dennis

6 pm Central Time  tonight on MTV.

vicki

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Friday night, October 17:

http://www.logotv.com/shows/laverne_cox_presents_the_t_word/series.jhtml
http://www.mtv.com/news/1934064/laverne-cox-presents-the-t-word-documentary-premiere/

Laverne Cox Presents:  The T Word
Documentary chronicling the challenges and trimphs of seven transgender youths as they navigate varying states of transitioning (I'm writing what People Magazine has).

MTV and Logo, 7: p.m. most places
http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/2014/10/17/exclusive-laverne-cox-sounds-t-word

Maybe for those who see this afterwards, or years from now, it will be available to see somehow, somewhere.




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jonathan.ford61@...

I would support my child and help them be who they are, transgender or not, gay or not, straight or not, or anything in between.  And if that meant seeking the advice of medical professionals, I would do that. And if my child, at puberty, felt they did not want to experience puberty of their gender assigned at birth, then I would help them get access to hormone blockers.  And if/when they decided on surgery, I would help them get that, too.


Children know their gender when they are little. They know who they are.  They might want to pretend to be the opposite sex, boys might want to pretend to be Mom and girls might want to pretend to be Dad, and they can have imaginary friends and go through phases where they tell you they are a lion or a dog or what have you. And they outgrow that.  But nobody outgrows their true gender, so if they identify as the gender opposite their biological sex, then I would help them.


And I would also help them navigate the world of prejudice and transphobia and they would know that they have my support and unconditional love throughout their life.


===We do not allow preteens or young teens the power of consent for sex===


Gender identity has nothing to do with sex or sexuality.  A three year old female-bodied child may adamantly claim they are a boy persistently but not even be aware of the physical sex differences between boys and girls. They just identify as a boy.  And they may be straight, or gay, or queer, or anything in between, and they'll figure that out at puberty and beyond.


Jon

Vicki Dennis



On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:16 PM, jonathan.ford61@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

  A three year old female-bodied child may adamantly claim they are a boy persistently but not even be aware of the physical sex differences between boys and girls. They just identify as a boy.  And they may be straight, or gay, or queer, or anything in between, and they'll figure that out at puberty and beyond.


Jon


CASS KOTRBA


-=-   I believe that there are more than two genders and also that there are endless gender "presentations". -=-
 
This is a subject I've been pondering about.  I have chickens.  A couple of years ago I had some young roosters who became aggressive with the hens and people so we harvested them.  I had a chicken who was clearly developing as a hen, she was about 6 months old, and I called her Helen.  Two or three weeks after all of the other roosters disappeared from the flock I noticed Helen start to change.  She started sprouting long tail feathers & her legs & ankles became more masculine.  Eventually she started to crow like a rooster & even hop on the hens as if mating with them.  At that time I changed her name to Pat as I really wasn't sure if she was a male or female.  I had heard that if you have a flock of chickens with no rooster that one of the hens would take on that role but I was surprised at how much this role change transformed Pat's appearance and behavior.  Pat has not dropped testicles and can't fertilize eggs.  He/she is not quite a full rooster but is definitely not a hen.  Something in between that I don't have a word for.  Pat has never become aggressive with the hens or people and is a great addition to the barnyard, whatever Pat's gender.
 
I also have had ducks for 3 years.  When I had males the entire flock was pretty sexually active.  After we harvested the males I noticed that it did not take long for the female ducks to regain their sexual activity with the females taking on the role of a male.  I don't think it's one particular female, I think they take turns but they look so similar it's not really easy to say for sure. 
 
So it is obvious to me that in the wider animal kingdom there is much more flexibility in sexuality than is allowed for in our culture.  (Although I believe that many Asian cultures do allow for more flexibility in sexual identity.) We tend to think of sexuality as a black and white, fixed thing.  Animals do not follow this rule.  For them, sexuality and gender identity seems to be quite malleable.  It has been a very interesting, unintended learning experience for myself & my kids.  I mention it to most people who come to visit our little farm & you can watch the wheels start turning in their heads.  :D
 
Similarly, I really enjoy watching my various critters take on the role of motherhood.  I enjoy watching how loving and relaxed they are with their young.  They are definitely unschoolers and I learn a lot from them!  They each have their own sweet little language that they use to communicate with their babies.  I love seeing how the desire to protect their young changes them.  I had a duck that went broody this spring - meaning she wanted to hatch eggs into babies and would refuse to leave her nest.  This normally timid, docile little duck went into warrior mode.  Anyone coming close to her nest would face her wrath.  She even bit me - hard - the couple of times I tried to get in there to check on her nest.  About a month after the first duck went broody I had a second one do the same.  I bought fertilized eggs for both of them to sit on.  The first duck managed to hatch 2 ducklings - and then something unexpected happened.  The 2 ducks teamed up.  Both ducks started taking caring of the ducklings and sitting on the remaining eggs.  They took turns and supported each other in the sweetest way.  They did not manage to hatch any of the remaining eggs but they both took ownership of the ducklings that had hatched.  I would never have expected them to act cooperatively in this way and it really made me think.  They are an adorable little family.
 
-Cass

Vicki Dennis





The question of surgery is another matter (one that is usually moot, anyway, as most doctors would not consider doing this type of surgery on a younger child and you are typically required to live as the gender you "present as" for a good length of time). Also, keep in mind, surgery is not always desired as part of "transitioning". In fact, most of my friends who are transgender have specifically chosen not to have surgery (with the notable exception of chest reduction - which, if they're on hormones pre-puberty, should not be an issue).

- Misa

Vicki Dennis

Teresa, I am curious.   What did your sibling do after about age 8?  Decided to return to living the birth gender?  Declared that was living actual gender, not different gender?.   How did your parents participate......... before, during, and after the age 4 to about 8 time period?.  Was this an older or younger sibling?  How did you personally relate and what did your parents explain to you?

Are you seeking different thoughts and actions because you do not rate those of your parents to be helpful?

vicki

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:07 PM, treesock@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 


 Just so you know a bit of where I'm coming from, I have a sibling who lived as a different gender from about age 4 to about age 8. Even though this issue isn't present with my own children, it's one close to me, and I'm hoping to get clearer about what kinds of thoughts and actions are helpful in these situations.

Teresa



treesock@...

(Sandra and Vicki, I responded to this, but then it said my post didn't send, and I couldn't get it back. I'll try to be more brief here, but please feel free to delete if the first one came through after all.)

Vicki, my sibling "living as another gender" was younger than my by 4 years. I'm not sure that's exactly the right expression for it, but she was born a girl, told my mom at age 4 that she wished she'd been born with a penis, wanted to be called Rick or Spike, and wanted a buzz cut for her next haircut. She never liked to answer the other kids' question, Are you a boy or a girl? I think if she'd had more choices or certainly if the question weren't loaded, she might have found a term she felt comfortable with, but I don't think it was either of those.

This was in the Deep South in the early 1980's. I think my mom was pretty progressive in the ways she handled it at the time. She didn't let my sister get a buzz cut, but she did let her get a pixie cut. She was fine with my sister wearing leather jackets and high-top sneakers and sometimes gray facepaint on her cheeks and chin to look like a 5 o'clock shadow. (And not just around the house, but to restaurants, the mall, etc.) She didn't just tolerate or even simply accept my sister, but she joyfully supported her; I remember her giving my sister gifts of a dinosaur pillowcase, a brown felt fedora, and any number of He-Man figures, Transformers, and Micromachines. She didn't ask the teachers to call my sister "he" or "him," but she empathized mightily when my sister came home upset that she wasn't allowed to line up with the boys at the restroom break before recess. My mom was a quiet champion. She was very shy and reserved and not inclined to advocate for us out in the world, but she made our family life one characterized by solid, unwavering, loving support.

I think my sister just gradually moved into a different identity. She stopped wanting to be called Rick. She grew her hair out a bit. When she had her first communion (we were raised Catholic), she asked not for slacks and a white shirt but for a neon pink dress. (My mother took her shopping for this and bought it; what snark she had to suffer at the ladies' Altar and Rosary Society meetings I don't know--she never mentioned it.) She joined the track team at school, and competed on the girls' team without issue.

It is a great regret of my life that I was not more kind or supportive of my sister during this time. I was 8 to 12 years old myself, and was teased mightily for being awkward, chubby, wearing thick glasses, and going through puberty early. I didn't have the strength or the room in my heart to accommodate her differences, and I resented the negative attention my sister's ambiguous gender sometimes drew to me, by extension.

I posted about my sister when I asked the question so that others here would know that I did not ask about trans children with a gawking curiosity but rather with a sincere heart and a personal history. The unschooling lens has, for me, offered the most respectful, sensible, loving, and creative perspective when looking at past experiences, current realities, and possible futures with children, so I wanted to ask her for help seeing from that point of view.

Teresa

Sandra Dodd

10405442_321995117982759_6843788606269659620_n.jpg

Someone tried to post this at Radical Unschooling Info, but without comment or a topic to tie it to, so I’ve brought it here.
It’s from a web comic about a transgender child.  Assigned Male - A webcomic about a transgender girl
https://www.facebook.com/assignedmale/photos/a.300503503465254.1073741825.300503316798606/300503510131920/?type=1&theater



And I had this in side e-mail:

http://www.transkidspurplerainbow.org/

Has some Barbara Walters videos
Jazz was born 2000.    
Have not discovered yet whether pre-puberty she was given hormones or hormone blockers.   And if any surgery was done or planned. 

I did recently see a video on upworthy in which Jazz  says she "transitioned" at age 5.    I am assuming the new definition of "transition" is to start dressing and presenting and calling oneself the gender opposite one's birth sex assignment?  Used to be the definition was to change the body to have physical sex match gender identity. 

fishbeensnail@...

Somewhere between one and two years old my son started to identify with role models in a big way.  Almost always heroes and superheroes.  Almost always female.  So we played at superheroes with her and it was joyful. I introduced her to Tomb Raider.  The first game I ever fell completely in love with. And then I found her a blue t-shirt and khaki shorts, gun holsters and 'lara boots' and plaited her hair for her.  

The first time she asked me to buy her a skirt she was maybe three years old.  We had never dressed her strictly along gender lines.  She had various girls tops, some pink clothes but no dresses or skirts.  I hesitated.  She flitted on to the next thing before I had decided what to say and it was no big deal.  But I thought about it.  Next time I said yes right away.  She put the skirt on outside the shop and twirled and twirled and twirled.  It was nothing but joyful.  

And she passed.  She was more convincing as a girl than she had ever been as a boy.  

She never wanted her hair cut so we didn't cut it.  Beautiful glossy golden curls.  Everyone commented on how beautiful her hair was.  And everyone thought she was a girl.  Even in boyish clothes, she got called she.  It irritated her.  She would tell people that boys can have pretty hair too.  

So she would choose girls clothes to go out in and it delighted her that nobody knew she was a boy.  She loved that she could fool people.  She stopped being cross when people got it 'wrong'.

She is four and a half now.  Over the last eighteen months her understanding of gender has grown a lot.  She has had a lot of questions about gender.  We have talked about the differences between male and female bodies, gender stereotypes and how they are not always right.  About how you can be both male and female at the same time.  About how some people prefer to live as the opposite gender to the one they were born as.  About how you can be born male and grow up to have a woman's body, or vice versa.  Not all at once.  Lots of little drips of information when she has asked for it.  She knows she could be a boy who likes sparkly dresses and baking.  She prefers to be a girl who likes play fighting with guns and swords.

Last summer she was in hospital for a week and her hair became very tangled and damaged and painful to brush so she asked to have it cut shorter.  In the autumn we moved house.  Because her hair is shorter, though still not short, and she was wearing boys and girls clothes, we were asked is she a boy or a girl a lot.  She always chose to tell people she was a girl. Since then she has stopped wearing clothes she considers to be too 'boyish'.  

She asked me to use she not he.  It took about a month to get used to and remember.  Her other mum and other people who know her were still using he.  I was expecting her tell them not to and I could see that it bothered her.  I don't like stepping into her relationships with other people but it was so obviously upsetting her that I offered to speak to them for her and she looked so relieved.   So I did and now everyone is trying to remember to use she.  We have a kind and open minded family so it has not been a problem.

We live in a kind and open minded community too.  The worst reaction she has had has been a raised eyebrow and no comment.  The people who think it is wonderful that she is allowed to express herself and be a girl have been very much the majority.   

She once said 'I'm pretending to be a girl but I'm really a boy. I have a boy's body.' and she looked terribly sad.  I hugged her and asked which one she is on the inside.  She said 'a girl'.  She said it very confidently.  So I smiled and said 'then you really are a girl.'   and she was happy again. 

We went to the swings and there was a mum there with a daughter a bit younger than Exey.  She had no idea Exey wasn't born female and while the children were playing she referred to them as 'the girls'.  Exey beamed.  I think that might have been the first time she felt like she wasn't pretending.  She was just one of the girls.  

She knows that people change all the time.  She doesn't have to chose today who she will be forever.  We will love her no matter what.  And we will celebrate with her.  Being a girl might be what makes sense to her for a while or it might be a lifelong identity.  Either way is cool with us.  Who she is right now is all that matters.  

If she wants to start a hormone blocking treatment when puberty approaches and start on the counselling and hormone treatments that she would need to grow into a woman's body we would support that without a second thought.    

chris ester

This is a wonderful story and a beautiful example.  Here is a web comic that you and your daughter may enjoy.


Chris

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:33 PM, fishbeensnail@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Somewhere between one and two years old my son started to identify with role models in a big way.  Almost always heroes and superheroes.  Almost always female.  So we played at superheroes with her and it was joyful. I introduced her to Tomb Raider.  The first game I ever fell completely in love with. And then I found her a blue t-shirt and khaki shorts, gun holsters and 'lara boots' and plaited her hair for her.  


The first time she asked me to buy her a skirt she was maybe three years old.  We had never dressed her strictly along gender lines.  She had various girls tops, some pink clothes but no dresses or skirts.  I hesitated.  She flitted on to the next thing before I had decided what to say and it was no big deal.  But I thought about it.  Next time I said yes right away.  She put the skirt on outside the shop and twirled and twirled and twirled.  It was nothing but joyful.  

And she passed.  She was more convincing as a girl than she had ever been as a boy.  

She never wanted her hair cut so we didn't cut it.  Beautiful glossy golden curls.  Everyone commented on how beautiful her hair was.  And everyone thought she was a girl.  Even in boyish clothes, she got called she.  It irritated her.  She would tell people that boys can have pretty hair too.  

So she would choose girls clothes to go out in and it delighted her that nobody knew she was a boy.  She loved that she could fool people.  She stopped being cross when people got it 'wrong'.

She is four and a half now.  Over the last eighteen months her understanding of gender has grown a lot.  She has had a lot of questions about gender.  We have talked about the differences between male and female bodies, gender stereotypes and how they are not always right.  About how you can be both male and female at the same time.  About how some people prefer to live as the opposite gender to the one they were born as.  About how you can be born male and grow up to have a woman's body, or vice versa.  Not all at once.  Lots of little drips of information when she has asked for it.  She knows she could be a boy who likes sparkly dresses and baking.  She prefers to be a girl who likes play fighting with guns and swords.

Last summer she was in hospital for a week and her hair became very tangled and damaged and painful to brush so she asked to have it cut shorter.  In the autumn we moved house.  Because her hair is shorter, though still not short, and she was wearing boys and girls clothes, we were asked is she a boy or a girl a lot.  She always chose to tell people she was a girl. Since then she has stopped wearing clothes she considers to be too 'boyish'.  

She asked me to use she not he.  It took about a month to get used to and remember.  Her other mum and other people who know her were still using he.  I was expecting her tell them not to and I could see that it bothered her.  I don't like stepping into her relationships with other people but it was so obviously upsetting her that I offered to speak to them for her and she looked so relieved.   So I did and now everyone is trying to remember to use she.  We have a kind and open minded family so it has not been a problem.

We live in a kind and open minded community too.  The worst reaction she has had has been a raised eyebrow and no comment.  The people who think it is wonderful that she is allowed to express herself and be a girl have been very much the majority.   

She once said 'I'm pretending to be a girl but I'm really a boy. I have a boy's body.' and she looked terribly sad.  I hugged her and asked which one she is on the inside.  She said 'a girl'.  She said it very confidently.  So I smiled and said 'then you really are a girl.'   and she was happy again. 

We went to the swings and there was a mum there with a daughter a bit younger than Exey.  She had no idea Exey wasn't born female and while the children were playing she referred to them as 'the girls'.  Exey beamed.  I think that might have been the first time she felt like she wasn't pretending.  She was just one of the girls.  

She knows that people change all the time.  She doesn't have to chose today who she will be forever.  We will love her no matter what.  And we will celebrate with her.  Being a girl might be what makes sense to her for a while or it might be a lifelong identity.  Either way is cool with us.  Who she is right now is all that matters.  

If she wants to start a hormone blocking treatment when puberty approaches and start on the counselling and hormone treatments that she would need to grow into a woman's body we would support that without a second thought.    


Vicki Dennis

I find it wonderful that you encourage your child to fully explore various identities.
I, however,would encourage you to have at least "second thoughts"  about puberty blockers.   You do not have to decide now and in the years before you do need to decide there may be much more research and data as well as alternatives.    There are safety concerns about puberty blockers as well as additional hormones.
I applaud that you have encouraged your child to express individuality in appearance without developing a hatred of own physical body.    My opinion is that it is not always necessary to be "matchy-matchy".

Vicki

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:48 PM, chris ester chris.homeschool@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

This is a wonderful story and a beautiful example.  Here is a web comic that you and your daughter may enjoy.


Chris

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:33 PM, fishbeensnail@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Somewhere between one and two years old my son started to identify with role models in a big way.  Almost always heroes and superheroes.  Almost always female.  So we played at superheroes with her and it was joyful. I introduced her to Tomb Raider.  The first game I ever fell completely in love with. And then I found her a blue t-shirt and khaki shorts, gun holsters and 'lara boots' and plaited her hair for her.  


The first time she asked me to buy her a skirt she was maybe three years old.  We had never dressed her strictly along gender lines.  She had various girls tops, some pink clothes but no dresses or skirts.  I hesitated.  She flitted on to the next thing before I had decided what to say and it was no big deal.  But I thought about it.  Next time I said yes right away.  She put the skirt on outside the shop and twirled and twirled and twirled.  It was nothing but joyful.  

And she passed.  She was more convincing as a girl than she had ever been as a boy.  

She never wanted her hair cut so we didn't cut it.  Beautiful glossy golden curls.  Everyone commented on how beautiful her hair was.  And everyone thought she was a girl.  Even in boyish clothes, she got called she.  It irritated her.  She would tell people that boys can have pretty hair too.  

So she would choose girls clothes to go out in and it delighted her that nobody knew she was a boy.  She loved that she could fool people.  She stopped being cross when people got it 'wrong'.

She is four and a half now.  Over the last eighteen months her understanding of gender has grown a lot.  She has had a lot of questions about gender.  We have talked about the differences between male and female bodies, gender stereotypes and how they are not always right.  About how you can be both male and female at the same time.  About how some people prefer to live as the opposite gender to the one they were born as.  About how you can be born male and grow up to have a woman's body, or vice versa.  Not all at once.  Lots of little drips of information when she has asked for it.  She knows she could be a boy who likes sparkly dresses and baking.  She prefers to be a girl who likes play fighting with guns and swords.

Last summer she was in hospital for a week and her hair became very tangled and damaged and painful to brush so she asked to have it cut shorter.  In the autumn we moved house.  Because her hair is shorter, though still not short, and she was wearing boys and girls clothes, we were asked is she a boy or a girl a lot.  She always chose to tell people she was a girl. Since then she has stopped wearing clothes she considers to be too 'boyish'.  

She asked me to use she not he.  It took about a month to get used to and remember.  Her other mum and other people who know her were still using he.  I was expecting her tell them not to and I could see that it bothered her.  I don't like stepping into her relationships with other people but it was so obviously upsetting her that I offered to speak to them for her and she looked so relieved.   So I did and now everyone is trying to remember to use she.  We have a kind and open minded family so it has not been a problem.

We live in a kind and open minded community too.  The worst reaction she has had has been a raised eyebrow and no comment.  The people who think it is wonderful that she is allowed to express herself and be a girl have been very much the majority.   

She once said 'I'm pretending to be a girl but I'm really a boy. I have a boy's body.' and she looked terribly sad.  I hugged her and asked which one she is on the inside.  She said 'a girl'.  She said it very confidently.  So I smiled and said 'then you really are a girl.'   and she was happy again. 

We went to the swings and there was a mum there with a daughter a bit younger than Exey.  She had no idea Exey wasn't born female and while the children were playing she referred to them as 'the girls'.  Exey beamed.  I think that might have been the first time she felt like she wasn't pretending.  She was just one of the girls.  

She knows that people change all the time.  She doesn't have to chose today who she will be forever.  We will love her no matter what.  And we will celebrate with her.  Being a girl might be what makes sense to her for a while or it might be a lifelong identity.  Either way is cool with us.  Who she is right now is all that matters.  

If she wants to start a hormone blocking treatment when puberty approaches and start on the counselling and hormone treatments that she would need to grow into a woman's body we would support that without a second thought.    



Vicki Dennis

 I also suggest that you consider what is necessary to have a "woman's body"  which is simply a body belonging to a woman versus attempts to have a "female body" which has particular biological markers.   I presume that "Jesse's Dream Skirt"  has been on the bedtime reading table for years?

I suppose my views on diversity may be a bit more radical than many are accustomed to.    I totally believe that boys can have pretty hair and that girls can enjoy physical aggressive play.   Or that girls may nurture play people and boys may use them as props for crashing vehicles.     Or that either may grow into someone who prefers tailored clothing or someone who prefers glitz and flowing fabric. 

vicki

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:29 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
I find it wonderful that you encourage your child to fully explore various identities.
I, however,would encourage you to have at least "second thoughts"  about puberty blockers.   You do not have to decide now and in the years before you do need to decide there may be much more research and data as well as alternatives.    There are safety concerns about puberty blockers as well as additional hormones.
I applaud that you have encouraged your child to express individuality in appearance without developing a hatred of own physical body.    My opinion is that it is not always necessary to be "matchy-matchy".

Vicki

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 12:48 PM, chris ester chris.homeschool@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

This is a wonderful story and a beautiful example.  Here is a web comic that you and your daughter may enjoy.


Chris

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:33 PM, fishbeensnail@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
 

Somewhere between one and two years old my son started to identify with role models in a big way.  Almost always heroes and superheroes.  Almost always female.  So we played at superheroes with her and it was joyful. I introduced her to Tomb Raider.  The first game I ever fell completely in love with. And then I found her a blue t-shirt and khaki shorts, gun holsters and 'lara boots' and plaited her hair for her.  


The first time she asked me to buy her a skirt she was maybe three years old.  We had never dressed her strictly along gender lines.  She had various girls tops, some pink clothes but no dresses or skirts.  I hesitated.  She flitted on to the next thing before I had decided what to say and it was no big deal.  But I thought about it.  Next time I said yes right away.  She put the skirt on outside the shop and twirled and twirled and twirled.  It was nothing but joyful.  

And she passed.  She was more convincing as a girl than she had ever been as a boy.  

She never wanted her hair cut so we didn't cut it.  Beautiful glossy golden curls.  Everyone commented on how beautiful her hair was.  And everyone thought she was a girl.  Even in boyish clothes, she got called she.  It irritated her.  She would tell people that boys can have pretty hair too.  

So she would choose girls clothes to go out in and it delighted her that nobody knew she was a boy.  She loved that she could fool people.  She stopped being cross when people got it 'wrong'.

She is four and a half now.  Over the last eighteen months her understanding of gender has grown a lot.  She has had a lot of questions about gender.  We have talked about the differences between male and female bodies, gender stereotypes and how they are not always right.  About how you can be both male and female at the same time.  About how some people prefer to live as the opposite gender to the one they were born as.  About how you can be born male and grow up to have a woman's body, or vice versa.  Not all at once.  Lots of little drips of information when she has asked for it.  She knows she could be a boy who likes sparkly dresses and baking.  She prefers to be a girl who likes play fighting with guns and swords.

Last summer she was in hospital for a week and her hair became very tangled and damaged and painful to brush so she asked to have it cut shorter.  In the autumn we moved house.  Because her hair is shorter, though still not short, and she was wearing boys and girls clothes, we were asked is she a boy or a girl a lot.  She always chose to tell people she was a girl. Since then she has stopped wearing clothes she considers to be too 'boyish'.  

She asked me to use she not he.  It took about a month to get used to and remember.  Her other mum and other people who know her were still using he.  I was expecting her tell them not to and I could see that it bothered her.  I don't like stepping into her relationships with other people but it was so obviously upsetting her that I offered to speak to them for her and she looked so relieved.   So I did and now everyone is trying to remember to use she.  We have a kind and open minded family so it has not been a problem.

We live in a kind and open minded community too.  The worst reaction she has had has been a raised eyebrow and no comment.  The people who think it is wonderful that she is allowed to express herself and be a girl have been very much the majority.   

She once said 'I'm pretending to be a girl but I'm really a boy. I have a boy's body.' and she looked terribly sad.  I hugged her and asked which one she is on the inside.  She said 'a girl'.  She said it very confidently.  So I smiled and said 'then you really are a girl.'   and she was happy again. 

We went to the swings and there was a mum there with a daughter a bit younger than Exey.  She had no idea Exey wasn't born female and while the children were playing she referred to them as 'the girls'.  Exey beamed.  I think that might have been the first time she felt like she wasn't pretending.  She was just one of the girls.  

She knows that people change all the time.  She doesn't have to chose today who she will be forever.  We will love her no matter what.  And we will celebrate with her.  Being a girl might be what makes sense to her for a while or it might be a lifelong identity.  Either way is cool with us.  Who she is right now is all that matters.  

If she wants to start a hormone blocking treatment when puberty approaches and start on the counselling and hormone treatments that she would need to grow into a woman's body we would support that without a second thought.    




Laura Zackery

If you haven't yet, I suggest seeking out folks who are part of the trans, genderqueer, and non-binary communities. I have met some lovely people via twitter, for example. It would be helpful for your daughter to have the advice and guidance of people who are not cis, and who have lived experience to share with her. Best wishes to you both!

Laura 

On Feb 27, 2015, at 1:33 PM, "fishbeensnail@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]> wrote:

 

Somewhere between one and two years old my son started to identify with role models in a big way.  Almost always heroes and superheroes.  Almost always female.  So we played at superheroes with her and it was joyful. I introduced her to Tomb Raider.  The first game I ever fell completely in love with. And then I found her a blue t-shirt and khaki shorts, gun holsters and 'lara boots' and plaited her hair for her.  


The first time she asked me to buy her a skirt she was maybe three years old.  We had never dressed her strictly along gender lines.  She had various girls tops, some pink clothes but no dresses or skirts.  I hesitated.  She flitted on to the next thing before I had decided what to say and it was no big deal.  But I thought about it.  Next time I said yes right away.  She put the skirt on outside the shop and twirled and twirled and twirled.  It was nothing but joyful.  

And she passed.  She was more convincing as a girl than she had ever been as a boy.  

She never wanted her hair cut so we didn't cut it.  Beautiful glossy golden curls.  Everyone commented on how beautiful her hair was.  And everyone thought she was a girl.  Even in boyish clothes, she got called she.  It irritated her.  She would tell people that boys can have pretty hair too.  

So she would choose girls clothes to go out in and it delighted her that nobody knew she was a boy.  She loved that she could fool people.  She stopped being cross when people got it 'wrong'.

She is four and a half now.  Over the last eighteen months her understanding of gender has grown a lot.  She has had a lot of questions about gender.  We have talked about the differences between male and female bodies, gender stereotypes and how they are not always right.  About how you can be both male and female at the same time.  About how some people prefer to live as the opposite gender to the one they were born as.  About how you can be born male and grow up to have a woman's body, or vice versa.  Not all at once.  Lots of little drips of information when she has asked for it.  She knows she could be a boy who likes sparkly dresses and baking.  She prefers to be a girl who likes play fighting with guns and swords.

Last summer she was in hospital for a week and her hair became very tangled and damaged and painful to brush so she asked to have it cut shorter.  In the autumn we moved house.  Because her hair is shorter, though still not short, and she was wearing boys and girls clothes, we were asked is she a boy or a girl a lot.  She always chose to tell people she was a girl. Since then she has stopped wearing clothes she considers to be too 'boyish'.  

She asked me to use she not he.  It took about a month to get used to and remember.  Her other mum and other people who know her were still using he.  I was expecting her tell them not to and I could see that it bothered her.  I don't like stepping into her relationships with other people but it was so obviously upsetting her that I offered to speak to them for her and she looked so relieved.   So I did and now everyone is trying to remember to use she.  We have a kind and open minded family so it has not been a problem.

We live in a kind and open minded community too.  The worst reaction she has had has been a raised eyebrow and no comment.  The people who think it is wonderful that she is allowed to express herself and be a girl have been very much the majority.   

She once said 'I'm pretending to be a girl but I'm really a boy. I have a boy's body.' and she looked terribly sad.  I hugged her and asked which one she is on the inside.  She said 'a girl'.  She said it very confidently.  So I smiled and said 'then you really are a girl.'   and she was happy again. 

We went to the swings and there was a mum there with a daughter a bit younger than Exey.  She had no idea Exey wasn't born female and while the children were playing she referred to them as 'the girls'.  Exey beamed.  I think that might have been the first time she felt like she wasn't pretending.  She was just one of the girls.  

She knows that people change all the time.  She doesn't have to chose today who she will be forever.  We will love her no matter what.  And we will celebrate with her.  Being a girl might be what makes sense to her for a while or it might be a lifelong identity.  Either way is cool with us.  Who she is right now is all that matters.  

If she wants to start a hormone blocking treatment when puberty approaches and start on the counselling and hormone treatments that she would need to grow into a woman's body we would support that without a second thought.    

Carol Ivany


I have no experience of this situation, but have seen it being discussed in another group, here in the UK.
 
Someone posted a link to Mermaids http://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/  which describes itself as "Family and individual support for teenagers and children with gender identity issues"
 
Maybe there is some useful information for you on that site ?
 
Best wishes to you and your family
 
Carol I 

fishbeensnail@...

If she were to go down the path of hormone blockers/replacement it would not be my decision.  My decision would be to give or not give consent.  I would give it.  I would help her gather all the information she needs and help her think through all of her options.  I would support her and offer her counsel in every way she wanted me to.  

It may never be relevant to her.

She is perfectly happy with her body.  She likes her penis.  It feels good and she can pee standing up. We are not making her give up anything.  

I have never heard of "Jessie's Dream Skirt".  I looked it up and it seems to be out of print.  She knows that she is not the only person to feel this way.  Her other mummy was born female and identified as a boy until puberty.  

 Chris Ester, thank you so much for the link.  That is a brilliant comic.

deborah-alwayslearning@...


-++- If you haven't yet, I suggest seeking out folks who are part of the trans, genderqueer, and non-binary communities. I have met some lovely people via twitter, for example. It would be helpful for your daughter to have the advice and guidance of people who are not cis, and who have lived experience to share with her. -++-

I agree. I have friends who are parents of a teenage transgender daughter, and they have started a network for parents of trans youth in Colorado. They provide a lot of support for parents figuring out how to support their children whose assigned genders don't seem to fit. I know most of you are not in Colorado, but they have also talked and sometimes visited with people far away, and they could probably connect you to people and resources closer to where you live. Their web site is http://tyes-colorado.org/index.html. The "For Parents" section has lots of linked information that may be helpful, and there's contact information as well.

 

Deborah Mensch