Sandra Dodd

I wrote this in another discussion that only has moms.  It's been rough this week beause some moms complained harshly about husbands, and wanted (said so) "support"—wanted agreement, sympathy, "empathy," in their insulting rants.

I held back a lot, but still was insulted by some who make it a habit to insult me (and perhaps others, but sometimes it seems personal).  

Probably it is true that some people do NOT see why agreeing with someone who has just pretty much said her husband sucks and is ruining her life, but she doesn't want a divorce, is in any way a problem for their children or unschooling.   I get tired around people who can't perceive the difference between down and up, between negative and positive, between hurts and helps.

But I wrote something (in a new topic there, which may or may not help someone) this, and I thought my best writing should always be HERE, not other places. 

With apologies to those for whom it will be a repeat, i think this is valuable:
_______________________________

Antagonism is a problem for any family, but for an unschooling family it will keep unschooling small and ineffectual. "Be his partner, not his adversary" was what I heard at the first La Leche League meeting I attended, and it helped more than anything else in my life to make relationships with my children, and their learning, wonderful.

Extending that to my husband wasn't as easy and not as "automatic," but shouldn't it have been? Didn't I swear in front of our relatives and friends to live with him for life? I didn't swear to be his enemy, the thwarter of his desires, or the boss of him. And that's not about religion. It's about being his partner, not his adversary.

My entry point in any of these discussions is what's good for an unschooling family—what is good for the children. Parents who can work together to make their kids' lives great have—because of that—a common project and a shared success. 

I have no interest in supporting less than that, or other than that. To side with a mother against the dad is siding against what is good for the children. 

When a mom or dad asks unschoolers to side with the parent against the children, we EASILY remind them to be their child's facilitator and helper and support. WHY and how could anyone who already sees that part of peace and prosperity not also want to extend it from mom to partner (of whatever gender, married or not)?


Sandra

Virginia Warren

I'm eternally grateful to this list for helping me back away from that particular precipice. "Mom & kids vs Dad" is a sad road to nowhere.

Sandra Dodd

-=-"Mom & kids vs Dad" is a sad road to nowhere.-=-

Oooh... I've seen it lead to mom and new boyfriend vs boyfriend's ex-wife AND vs. mom's ex-husband and his new wife, who has the kids several times a month and thinks unschooling is child neglect.

I have unfortunately seen that more than once.

It is SO Much better (and easier, and cheaper) to learn to be sweet and kind with the father of one's own children than to attempt to get along with him and his new wife.

I have said (and many others before me have surely said) that if you think your mother-in-law is problematical while you're married, wait until you divorce and she's still the grandmother of your children.  

People should be much more careful with things of great value, and the potential of being married for 50 years is HUGELY more valuable than the dubious value of three or four marriages, trying to get it right.

Small things:  not being able to put family photos out, because ex spouses are in them; who gets the first call when a child is hurt or your own grandchild is born?  Who sits where at weddings and funerals? 

Keep it clean and right if it's not too late.  Let your grown children come home to visit both their parents in the same house, if possible, instead of one house and then another, with a series of potential step-whatevers.  I have been there, as a young adult.  My dad remarried twice.  My mom got pregnant and when she saw the color of the child, she married the correspondingly-light-or-dark potential father.  I was 18, 19, early 20's during all that horror show.  My sister was younger.    Were we old enough not to be affected?  No.

Through the 1970's and 80's, especially, divorce was rampant and people assured each other that children were resiliant and would be fine.  This study found otherwise:  the unexpected legacy of divorce  http://www.amazon.com/The-Unexpected-Legacy-Divorce-Landmark/dp/0786886161


Sandra

meghorvath85@...

This group, Sandra's words and all the great advice givers here have also helped me through this topic ...

I can't remember the exact words, or if the topic was family or divorce related but the main point was that peace is important. If your true aim is peace then things tend to fall into place. Being peaceful is still something I need to 'turn on' everyday. I hope that one day it's more natural of a feeling, but for now, it gives me some good ideas on how to help my kids turn it on when they want to.

My son's father and I split up when my son was only 1 and I had a lot of people saying to me that my little baby wouldn't "be affected" by it at all, since he was so young. That never made any sense to me. It directly affected me and my son is there, seeing it and most likely feeling it too.

I was drawn to this group trying to steer away from people's advice telling me that my son was just a little empty vessel waiting to be filled. That way of thinking, that children are these empty robots waiting to be programmed has always bothered me, and I was relieved to find other people that disagreed as much as I did with the notion. 

Since then, I have learned that my son absolutely should have as much of a relationship with his dad as he does with me. His father and I didn't make a good pair, per our own struggles, but my son deserves to experience a relationship with someone who shares the same emotional ups and downs, personal likes and dislikes, etc. I find happiness in seeing my son's relationship with his dad. It brings so much peace to my house, to my son, to myself.     

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was drawn to this group trying to steer away from people's advice telling me that my son was just a little empty vessel waiting to be filled.-=-

The "technical term" for that is "tabula rasa," meaning blank slate.  It's an all-nurture, no nature theory. :-)

-=-His father and I didn't make a good pair, per our own struggles, but my son deserves to experience a relationship with someone who shares the same emotional ups and downs, personal likes and dislikes, etc. I find happiness in seeing my son's relationship with his dad.-=-

I think it helps kids to know their parents, if they can, so they can see the traits they might have inherited.

I'm more like my paternal grandmother than directly like either of my parents, so I'm glad I knew her.  But I see traits from my dad (and that makes me happy, because he was a sweet, generous man) and from my mom (which kind of makes me kind of embarrassed, because she wasn't nice to me—but friends of mine really liked her, and she was nice to my sister).

Being grown and looking back at them, knowing what I know now, it's interesting to see how they handled the traits I recognize as "family"/familiar.    I'm five years older than my dad ever was.  That's interesting.

So it's not only kids who learn and grow from knowing their parents.  I think it continues through life.

Sandra

ginnyleeferguson@...

I want to hear a little more on the topic of marriage. My experience is a spouse who is a firm believer in the gospel of schooling. "The kids should be in school." "Kids who don't go to school end up in jail." "They aren't learning anything." "They should be reading by now, doing math worksheets, learning school survival skills, getting up early, etc." "You are hurting our kids by ruining their future." "You're brainwashing yourself by reading all that stuff, and now you're brainwashing our kids." 

He even takes it to the kids. "You aren't learning anything." "You need to be in school." etc. I compromised at first, I sent the kids to school a couple of years, I opened my mind and dove all in and let go of my own beliefs. But after watching them struggle to "keep up," and lose their love for learning and life, I just couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't physically drive them to school, the thought made me ill.

 I apologized to my husband and offered him several books, videos, short essays to read that explained my point of view. But he only sampled a few, and disagreed with them. 

I have been unschooling the kids by myself. It is a very me and the kids vs. dad type of environment. How can we change this? This has been a very win/lose marriage as of late. I don't believe in spanking, he does.(I put my foot down and will not allow spanking, and he resents me for it.) 

Once upon a time we were on the same page. We used to listen to parenting CDs together and we stood together against our traditional family and friends. But then he changed back to his old beliefs, I don't know why. I became MORE radical. He said he changed back because he basically lost faith in me and my ability to teach and raise our children properly as he watched our daughter fail to learn to read, then watched our second child struggling with me homeschooling as well. 

He was trying to follow me because I seemed so sure. But he didn't hold the beliefs firmly for himself. He felt betrayed in that trust watching us struggle, and seeing me uncertain of what to do for awhile. I found my answer in unschooling. But he felt like the answer was to go back to what he felt was 'safe.' He and I split beliefs there and have continued to travel separate paths of thought. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have been unschooling the kids by myself. It is a very me and the kids vs. dad type of environment. How can we change this? This has been a very win/lose marriage as of late.-=-

I wish I had magic words for you.  I have some ideas, but would you mind telling us how old your children are and where you live?  (Generally where, not specifically, if you don't want).

Maybe others here could recommend just one or two more mainstream TED talks that might relax him away from thinking school is a great idea (I hope someone can).  

For you, if you can afford it, maybe speak with someone from this page:
Being walked through some specific things you might do could help.  Marji Zintz, maybe, or Amy Childs, I'm thinking.

Amy Childs has some short things here:  http://unschoolingsupport.com with some short podcasts that might make him feel better (or might make you feel better).

Do you keep a blog?  That might be helpful—things he can look at and think about without it being a direct conversation with you.  And it would help you see progress, too, and perhaps inspire you to do things well worth blogging about and photographing. :-)

Subscribing to The Homeschooler Magazine (or buying some back issues to leave in the bathroom) could be (possibly) helpful, if you're in the U.S.  http://www.hsc.org/magazine.html
It's not all unschooling, but leans that way, and the past many issues I'm a columnist. :-)

Don't put all your attention on your children, though.  Be as sweet to your husband as you can be.  Don't let him feel abandoned and alone.  Talk about things other than the children, find interesting  things for him.

And don't be so focussed on unschooling that it's the only thing you will accept.  An intact family is more valuable to your children than unschooling is.  Find ways to believe that, because a divorce is worse than school, and they often go together.

Soft and sweet will be better than defensive and resentful.

Sandra




Liz Struk

Has your husband read John Taylor Gotto?  My husband was very against homeschooling (we hadn't yet heard of unschooling) in the beginning, and reading JTG (as my husband now affectionately calls Mr. Gotto) was what changed my husband's mind completely.  The fact the Mr. Gotto was a NYC teacher and even awarded a teacher of the year award a few times really gave "weight" to him, in my husband's eyes.  

K Pennell

Perhaps, if he is feeling this way, you can find some "school-y" things to do which will help him feel better about them being home, but which won't be too odious for the kids. Documentaries can be lots of fun, make a few math worksheets for them, print up some blank maps to label and color for "geography". Perhaps field trips to science museums or historical sites? You can even make cool slideshows/power point presentations on line. Maybe a few little things like that will help him relax, and having the kids share it with him will hopefully make it seem less like he's the adversary.

From: "Sandra Dodd Sandra@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Partners, not adversaries



-=-I have been unschooling the kids by myself. It is a very me and the kids vs. dad type of environment. How can we change this? This has been a very win/lose marriage as of late.-=-

I wish I had magic words for you.  I have some ideas, but would you mind telling us how old your children are and where you live?  (Generally where, not specifically, if you don't want).

Maybe others here could recommend just one or two more mainstream TED talks that might relax him away from thinking school is a great idea (I hope someone can).  

For you, if you can afford it, maybe speak with someone from this page:
Being walked through some specific things you might do could help.  Marji Zintz, maybe, or Amy Childs, I'm thinking.

Amy Childs has some short things here:  http://unschoolingsupport.com with some short podcasts that might make him feel better (or might make you feel better).

Do you keep a blog?  That might be helpful—things he can look at and think about without it being a direct conversation with you.  And it would help you see progress, too, and perhaps inspire you to do things well worth blogging about and photographing. :-)

Subscribing to The Homeschooler Magazine (or buying some back issues to leave in the bathroom) could be (possibly) helpful, if you're in the U.S.  http://www.hsc.org/magazine.html
It's not all unschooling, but leans that way, and the past many issues I'm a columnist. :-)

Don't put all your attention on your children, though.  Be as sweet to your husband as you can be.  Don't let him feel abandoned and alone.  Talk about things other than the children, find interesting  things for him.

And don't be so focussed on unschooling that it's the only thing you will accept.  An intact family is more valuable to your children than unschooling is.  Find ways to believe that, because a divorce is worse than school, and they often go together.

Soft and sweet will be better than defensive and resentful.

Sandra








semajrak@...

<<He said he changed back because he basically lost faith in me and my ability to teach and raise our children properly as he watched our daughter fail to learn to read, then watched our second child struggling with me homeschooling as well.>>

Try to earn his trust back.  Invite him into your life again.  It sounds like you might have walked away from him.  
For the first few years of unschooling my son, Ethan, I kept a blog.  I took a lot of pictures (still do), and posted them on the blog with words about what I saw Ethan learning.  I tried to keep it joyful while I focused on the cool connections Ethan was making.  It was a good process for me too.  It helped me really see how much we were doing and learning.  Seeing that made it easier to add to our experience as well.  I invited my husband, Doug, to have a look at it with me often.  

Sometimes I messaged my Doug a photo of Ethan doing something interesting during the day, and added an enthusiastic message.  "Look how huge these bubbles are!"  or "Check out this cool redstone circuit Ethan made today.  He's so good at this!"

I looked for things that I thought Ethan and Doug would enjoy doing together.  Since he was a boy himself, my husband has always liked games.  He and I used to play many games together before Ethan was born, so I had a good idea which ones he preferred.  As I learned what Ethan also liked, I could look for ones that would bring the two of them together.  When Ethan was younger I looked for toys I thought they both would find fascinating.  I would put them out and then leave them alone to explore.  Often I would come in and take videos or pictures of them together after they had time to make something cool.  I would show them to Doug.  Seeing himself and Ethan engaged and happy together helped whenever he was feeling a bit negative or worried about what Ethan was learning.  It can be easy to forget how rich our lives are when worry and doubt set in.  Having evidence of that wealth has been really encouraging in our family.

For ideas, here are some of the things Doug and Ethan liked to do together.  Marble runs, dancing to music, playing music, making electrical circuits, Doug reading aloud, make-shift ball runs, video games, pencil and paper games, cooperative board games, folding 3d paper shapes, bowling down the hall, paper airplanes, comic drawing, dungeons and dragons.  For all of these, I have photos or videos.  A friend of ours has a photo-loop screen-saver on her computer.  Having photos of the kids doing cool things with you and dad looping on a computer screen or tv screen would be a warm reminder of the wonderful learning you all share together.  

If you can afford it, plan a little trip together.  Find someplace cool that you know your husband and kids will enjoy.  

Take time to tell your husband you appreciate him.  It sounds like you get to stay home with the kids.  Say thanks.  Make his favourite dinners.  Encourage the kids to help.  Recognize that having him help you makes unschooling easier.  I often say thanks to Doug for working so that Ethan and I can have this life.  It is such a gift to both of us.  I say it privately, and I say it in front of Ethan.  I can see that means a lot to Doug.

Work on being loving toward your husband.  See him lovingly.  Touch him lovingly.  Talk to him lovingly.  Perhaps you are defensive.  Notice when you are.  Try to soften.  Try to see the good things he brings to the family, and start building back up from there.

Karen James.   

Jamie Maltman

Further to the Gatto recommendation,  while the best of the living unschooling books and posts are written by the Moms who have been doing it every day for years, there's some male writers who go more toward theory and why, with credentials/background that might be useful for some of the skeptical Dads. I was the Dad leading the charge, and some of them spoke to me. Strew some of these,  depending on his learning style.

Gatto, as a teacher

Peter Gray as a psychology professor, writing at Psychology Today, and his articles touch on a bunch of different aspects and can be read online instead of pushing a book on a resistant husband.

Carlo Ricci as a professor of education and unschooling Dad, who also has videos in addition to the journal of alternative education he coordinates.

John Holt as a math teacher trying to make school work better, or at all, initially,  then evolving into an unschooling proponent over the course of his books

Leo Babauta, not as some academic expert, but a blogger and entrepreneur, who writes mindfully and peacefully about why unschooling made sense for his family, preparing for life and work the way it exists today. He has an intro at zenhabits.net that is great for dads with an entreprenurial bent, and expands on ideas at www.unschoolery.com

Find the bits from those sources that can work for where he is now. Intro mite later. And don't start with (this group of women on the internet told me X). You don't want to get his back up, or make it Always Learning + you  vs him. (Yes, this group is fantastic, but mentioning that can be counter productive)

Good luck with the Dads, connecting the right ideas to them so they can start their own deschooling, at a pace and on a twisting route very different from yours.

Cheers,
Jamie (the Dad)