Forcing
Megan Valnes
Hello,
This question is regarding my 10 year old son, Julian. Julian is the oldest of 4 children (soon to be 5). We embarked on our unschooling journey in February of this year and Julian was halfway thru 4th grade when we decided to take the kids out of school.
Since we've been out of school, Julian has been decompressing by watching a lot of his favorite shows on TV, playing his video games, reading, and drawing his comic books. He doesn't really like to leave the house. In the beginning, he was staying up till all hours (because he could) and sleeping half the day. Recently, he's been putting himself to bed earlier and earlier on his own accord and waking up in time to join the rest of us on our family activities, which I love because I miss him when he's not with us.
The difficult issue I am dealing with (and the other kids and my husband) is the fact that getting Julian to go anywhere with us is usually a BIG fight, accompanied by some tears, and eventually he comes with us. Why would I force him? Well, sometimes, we have help here at home and he can stay home if he chooses, but other times like yesterday, there is no one at home to watch him and I don't feel comfortable leaving him alone for 5 hours or more. Also, I WANT him to be with us. I feel like he misses so many of our outings that it's like he's not part of the family. And when we have been gone on one our days, by the time we get home, my other kids and I are pooped out from the day and Julian is hyper and full of energy because he's essentially been sitting all day, so he becomes disruptive to the other's bedtime routines and the mood just changes.
Here are a couple examples: Friday we decided to do a beach day and visit the tidepools. My 19 year old niece also joined us, and Julian adores her, so I thought it'd be an easy answer. I spoke with Julian about our plan the night before (because he does need time to prepare for outings) and gave him the whole rundown. He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. Friday morning comes and I prepare lunches and beach bags for everyone and get all ready. Julian wakes up and I cheerfully remind him "we're going to the tidepools today!" and he states he does not want to go and he never said he would. I try discussing it rationally with him (there's no choice in this matter) and get nowhere. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, he starts yelling, we get into a huge fight where we're both actually crying, and then I say fine, stay, and then he decides to come with us. He ends up having a wonderful time and we all have a great day, go out for sushi for dinner, and get home late that night. And he was tired out. We came home, he relaxed with a show, and went to bed. The day was lovely except for that huge fight in the morning.
Yesterday, same basic thing. The difference being I did not give any warning the night before because we decided same day what we were going to do. I wake up with the other kids and we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. He says no way, he doesn't want to go. Well, again, there's no choice because my husband was working all day and I didn't want to leave him alone all day. So he gets ready to go with minimal resistance and then puts up a big fight when we're walking out the door. So again, we both start yelling, tears, etc. This just raises my stress level and I'm pregnant so I feel every emotion ten fold (at least that's how it feels in my brain) plus my son is upset and screaming at me that I force him to do things he doesn't want to do. I remind him how much fun he had at the beach and maybe he'll have fun at the museum too. This does not resonate with him and he literally goes into tantrum mode (I'm talking wailing, kicking, slamming things, and getting very physical). Finally, we make it out the door to the museum and lo and behold he has a wonderful time. I mean, the kid has so much fun, even I can hardly believe it. He plays with his brother and sisters (and his sister's friend) and is overall very happy.
Then the museum has a special guest of these people that put on drum circles, so we all go and join the really fun drum circle, bang on our djembes, sing along, my other kids and I are all laughing and really getting into the drumming, and suddenly Julian stops drumming and starts saying in my ear thru clenched teeth "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM! WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). He continues to freak out in my ear for a while and then sits down and waits the rest of the song out calmly. We go eat on the way home and all is well for the rest of the day.
My husband has been urging me to write to y'all for some time and I've known I need to. I just feel so lost with Julian. In some ways, our relationship is better than ever. He is confiding to me about things I never knew before. He is really opening up about his feelings. He is able to express himself in very mature ways when all is well and calm. We have definitely become much closer. On the other hand, it is a fight whenever we have to do something he doesn't want to do, but sometimes I just can't give him a choice, and sometimes I don't want to give him a choice because I don't want him to miss all of our activities, especially when I know he'll enjoy himself once we're there. And he, of all my children, is the only one who throws tantrums. He will throw out full on tantrums in public, where I have to physically remove him from what we're doing. He is almost as big as I am and the bigger I get with this baby, the harder it is for me to deal with him. I try to make him happy. I do my best to keep him full of food, sleep, and things he enjoys. I play his games with him, watch his shows with him, and of course, I really love him. This fighting kills me.
He is definitely the child most difficult for me. He always has been. Sometimes I think I should just let him stay home all the time because it would make my life so much easier, but I cringe at the fact of him missing so many family adventures. I would like some suggestions as to how to keep the peace better with him. I also need suggestions as to how to keep him more peaceful. He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister. Yesterday at the museum I caught him holding his little brother by his head up against a wall and the look of terror in my 5-year-olds eyes made me incredibly sad. I separated them and said to Julian "Imagine how terrifying that is for Zack. He looked really scared. You are much bigger than him. You don't have to get physical because he's not doing what you want him to." Julian just walked away and I'm not sure how he internalized it.
Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes? Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him? I'm sorry this is so lengthy, but it feels like a really big problem when it's happening. I want to be thorough in my explanation. Input is gladly received. Thank you.
Warmly,
Megan
K Pennell
Hi Megan,
Depending where you live, letting your ten yr old stay home for five plus hours might get you in trouble, so your instincts may be right on that.
Is there anyone Julian could sometimes stay with, or who could come stay with him? That way perhaps sometimes he can stay, so he feels like he has some control. Has it always been hard for him to go out? Does he get anxious around the crowds/noise? Does he enjoy certain activities more than others? It sounds like the tidal pools were a big hit, but the museum maybe not (the drums bothered him, and if he had his little brother against the wall, he might have been agitated or stressed by the environment). If you could pinpoint the kinds of activities that are harder for him, and either avoid them altogether, or make other arrangements for him, it might be helpful.
Is it possible for your 19 year old niece to come stay with him sometimes while you go out? Or go with you to help with him if you all go out and he becomes overwhelmed? If he knew someone was there that was able to take him to a quiet place (with something he'd enjoy, like an iPad), he might feel more relaxed about the outing?
From: "Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 1:34 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Forcing
Hello,
This question is regarding my 10 year old son, Julian. Julian is the oldest of 4 children (soon to be 5). We embarked on our unschooling journey in February of this year and Julian was halfway thru 4th grade when we decided to take the kids out of school.
Since we've been out of school, Julian has been decompressing by watching a lot of his favorite shows on TV, playing his video games, reading, and drawing his comic books. He doesn't really like to leave the house. In the beginning, he was staying up till all hours (because he could) and sleeping half the day. Recently, he's been putting himself to bed earlier and earlier on his own accord and waking up in time to join the rest of us on our family activities, which I love because I miss him when he's not with us.
The difficult issue I am dealing with (and the other kids and my husband) is the fact that getting Julian to go anywhere with us is usually a BIG fight, accompanied by some tears, and eventually he comes with us. Why would I force him? Well, sometimes, we have help here at home and he can stay home if he chooses, but other times like yesterday, there is no one at home to watch him and I don't feel comfortable leaving him alone for 5 hours or more. Also, I WANT him to be with us. I feel like he misses so many of our outings that it's like he's not part of the family. And when we have been gone on one our days, by the time we get home, my other kids and I are pooped out from the day and Julian is hyper and full of energy because he's essentially been sitting all day, so he becomes disruptive to the other's bedtime routines and the mood just changes.
Here are a couple examples: Friday we decided to do a beach day and visit the tidepools. My 19 year old niece also joined us, and Julian adores her, so I thought it'd be an easy answer. I spoke with Julian about our plan the night before (because he does need time to prepare for outings) and gave him the whole rundown. He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. Friday morning comes and I prepare lunches and beach bags for everyone and get all ready. Julian wakes up and I cheerfully remind him "we're going to the tidepools today!" and he states he does not want to go and he never said he would. I try discussing it rationally with him (there's no choice in this matter) and get nowhere. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, he starts yelling, we get into a huge fight where we're both actually crying, and then I say fine, stay, and then he
decides to come with us. He ends up having a wonderful time and we all have a great day, go out for sushi for dinner, and get home late that night. And he was tired out. We came home, he relaxed with a show, and went to bed. The day was lovely except for that huge fight in the morning.
Yesterday, same basic thing. The difference being I did not give any warning the night before because we decided same day what we were going to do. I wake up with the other kids and we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. He says no way, he doesn't want to go. Well, again, there's no choice because my husband was working all day and I didn't want to leave him alone all day. So he gets ready to go with minimal resistance and then puts up a big fight when we're walking out the door. So again, we both start yelling, tears, etc. This just raises my stress level and I'm pregnant so I feel every emotion ten fold (at least that's how it feels in my brain) plus my son is upset and screaming at me that I force him to do
things he doesn't want to do. I remind him how much fun he had at the beach and maybe he'll have fun at the museum too. This does not resonate with him and he literally goes into tantrum mode (I'm talking wailing, kicking, slamming things, and getting very physical). Finally, we make it out the door to the museum and lo and behold he has a wonderful time. I mean, the kid has so much fun, even I can hardly believe it. He plays with his brother and sisters (and his sister's friend) and is overall very happy.
Then the museum has a special guest of these people that put on drum circles, so we all go and join the really fun drum circle, bang on our djembes, sing along, my other kids and I are all laughing and really getting into the drumming, and suddenly Julian stops drumming and starts saying in my ear thru clenched teeth "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM! WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). He continues to freak out in my ear for a while and then sits down and waits the rest of the song out calmly. We go eat on the way home and all is well for the rest of the day.
My husband has been urging me to write to y'all for some time and I've known I need to. I just feel so lost with Julian. In some ways, our relationship is better than ever. He is confiding to me about things I never knew before. He is really opening up about his feelings. He is able to express himself in very mature ways when all is well and calm. We have definitely become much closer. On the other hand, it is a fight whenever we have to do something he doesn't want to do, but sometimes I just can't give him a choice, and sometimes I don't want to give him a choice because I don't want him to miss all of our activities, especially when I know he'll enjoy himself once we're there. And he, of all my children, is the only one who throws tantrums. He will throw out full on tantrums in public, where I have to physically remove him from what we're doing. He is almost as big as I am
and the bigger I get with this baby, the harder it is for me to deal with him. I try to make him happy. I do my best to keep him full of food, sleep, and things he enjoys. I play his games with him, watch his shows with him, and of course, I really love him. This fighting kills me.
He is definitely the child most difficult for me. He always has been. Sometimes I think I should just let him stay home all the time because it would make my life so much easier, but I cringe at the fact of him missing so many family adventures. I would like some suggestions as to how to keep the peace better with him. I also need suggestions as to how to keep him more peaceful. He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister. Yesterday at the museum I caught him holding his little brother by his head up against a wall and the look of terror in my 5-year-olds eyes made me incredibly sad. I separated them and said to Julian "Imagine how terrifying that is for Zack. He looked really scared. You are much bigger than him. You don't have to get physical because he's not doing what you want him to." Julian just walked away and I'm not sure how he internalized
it.
Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes? Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him? I'm sorry this is so lengthy, but it feels like a really big problem when it's happening. I want to be thorough in my explanation. Input is gladly received. Thank you.
Warmly,
Megan
semajrak@...
<<He is definitely the child most difficult for me. He always has been.>>
My middle brother was viewed by my mom as the most difficult child of the three of us, and he learned to live up to that vision of him. Can you shift your thinking to see him in a more generous light? Often, our actions reflect our thoughts. Solutions might come more easily to you if instead of seeing him as difficult, you see his needs and/or his real personality traits.
<<Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes?>>
Are there good reasons to try to persuade someone to follow you in some situations? I think so. But what is the cost of "forcing" someone to follow us to the beach or to a museum, just because we think it's for the best? What message do we send in doing so? Is what he learns at the museum more valuable than what he will learn from your interactions? Those are some of the questions I think I would reflect on.
My middle brother was viewed by my mom as the most difficult child of the three of us, and he learned to live up to that vision of him. Can you shift your thinking to see him in a more generous light? Often, our actions reflect our thoughts. Solutions might come more easily to you if instead of seeing him as difficult, you see his needs and/or his real personality traits.
<<Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes?>>
Are there good reasons to try to persuade someone to follow you in some situations? I think so. But what is the cost of "forcing" someone to follow us to the beach or to a museum, just because we think it's for the best? What message do we send in doing so? Is what he learns at the museum more valuable than what he will learn from your interactions? Those are some of the questions I think I would reflect on.
<<Should I just let him>>
"Just" is one of those words that can shift thinking. Consider the difference between "Should I just let him..." and "Should I let him...". Then, consider if you took it a little further, to something like "Should I encourage his interest in...". You may be able to find the answers to your own questions by playing with rewording the question in your own mind.
<<Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him?>>
"Just" is one of those words that can shift thinking. Consider the difference between "Should I just let him..." and "Should I let him...". Then, consider if you took it a little further, to something like "Should I encourage his interest in...". You may be able to find the answers to your own questions by playing with rewording the question in your own mind.
<<Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him?>>
Is there anyone who can watch him? Do you have a friend you could invite over? Can you afford to hire someone? Can you bring a device on which he can watch his show on while you're all out? Can you think of other ways to accommodate the activities he likes into your outings? Do you have days where you focus on doing with him what he wants to do?
<<He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister.>>
Is it possible he feels bullied himself?
<<I separated them and said to Julian "Imagine how terrifying that is for Zack. He looked really scared. You are much bigger than him. You don't have to get physical because he's not doing what you want him to.">>
Consider the example you are setting. Earlier you wrote:
<<I start yelling, he starts yelling, we get into a huge fight where we're both actually crying, and then I say fine, stay, and then he decides to come with us.>>
See any similarities? You may not be getting physical with your son, but you seem to be using your power over him. From what you describe, you are yelling and shaming to get him to do what you want him to. Can you see how that might influence his own behaviour with his younger siblings?
How much to you watch tv, play games and read comics with him? How often do you spend time doing what he enjoys doing? You have three other children to consider, of course, but I have observed that when a parent really embraces her child's interests, the child often (though not always) softens in regards to sharing time. It might be worth considering, if it isn't something you already do.
Karen James.
janine davies
Hi Megan,
My son also finds leaving/going out makes him feeling unsafe and anxious and I sympathise, I am not pregnant but I am menopausal and just turned fifty so my energy levels are not quite what they used to be…
My Son is now 12 and he came out of school at 10 (his brother 5). He has always had difficulty with transitioning from home to out even from very young - Parties, days out, playgroups, school..really for as long as I can remember, and it has always increased his anxiety levels, made him think too much, heightened his sensory sensitivity and which then sparks anger and trauma, and as he has gotten older - utter rage, panic and extreme anxiety and some OCD too which can change from personal hygiene to his environment.
To quote you "he is the more difficult of my sons" mine are like chalk and cheese, but I now work daily on seeing this differently and have realised that he is in fact my greatest guide towards better for us all, he has led us to this path and I really am so utterly grateful to him.
It has been and can be tough and heartbreaking on days, and my partner and I have spent a lot of time over the years discussing, hand wringing, walking out in case we did something we regretted, yelling in there too, we have punished in the past, timed out, you name it we tried it.
But in the end it is simply came down to accepting and then being kinder, supporting him and finding creative ways to help his life be less anxious for him.
There had been damage to my son - I still think that deep down he thinks there is something wrong with him and he gets angry at himself and shouts that he want 'to be 'normal' it my be from seeing the books over the years that I tried to hide unsuccessfully from him 'raising your spirited child' 'the explosive child' etc…and some bad advice along the way too…but we have chatted and he is aware that he simply 'feels more' than the average kid in any given situation, and with the help of this discussion we no longer applying labels, and when he is calm and feeling safe he gets that he feels more and it just sometimes overwhelms him, and he can even see the many positives of being a person who feels more and we chat about all the situations where this is and could be, and will be amazing for him in his life - no promises though.
My partner and I have accepted that this is who our son is - we try not to look back anymore and think we have failed, or did something wrong along the way, we don't think of him as difficult and we don't talk like that to each other about him - he is Sam our son, and we have got into a groove (which doesn't always go smoothly) of creating a life for our son that does not have too many events, days out, visits, home improvements etc..that will make him feel unsafe and anxious. We keep it simple for him, we try not too dwell, and we try not to compare - that is very toxic…
We get on with keeping him feeling safe and happy, and if thats means only one family day or outing a month than thats great and will be treasured more I think, there is usually one or two also that we all 'have to' go too (weddings and the like) so we find it best to leave that as the main event of the month. Go with his suggestions and ideas also we find these exits easier, but don't get carried away - take it slow, and do a combo of a day out and then he gets to stay home, and pick up as quickly as you can when he suggests going out or somewhere, even if it's still a bit tricky exiting - those days are the ones thats are easier I find. Theme parks and gaming conventions with my son are all so much easier to get too, and importantly I think - my son loves to go out with just his dad or just me, so we have lots of these days or mornings and afternoons, even an hour is good especially if he suggested it.
I know they often enjoy those big days out once the fight is done and you have manged to get him in the car or just out the house, but for me I was not bouncing back so easily from the intensity of the exits, and as you said how is it being internalised with our sons….. I think its best to try to keep it as calm and safe and everyone feeling good about themselves as possible, and about the day ahead being a happy one for all, and if his decision is to not to come then we can find ways to respect that, I have even found that he does change his mind sometimes if we just get on with the 3 of us going and him getting to stay home or someone coming to watch him.
I also think your son may be very sensitive sensory wise like my son - the drumming was a big one and he was telling you, I know with my son the 4 of us trying to get stuff together and leave the house is too much for him - he picks up on my feelings of 'have I got everything!' and his brother can also protest about shoes or something and he feels that, and I think with so many of you trying to leave that may be too much for your son, and with mine even the thought of it makes him anxious and he can't actually even get out of bed because he is 'thinking so many thinks' as we like to say he does, even though the night before he was excited and looking forward to it, and my son also denies saying that he wanted to go - they just can't fit another think in their heads it seems.
Lastly I would say that in all my reading and researching one thing came up over and over - take care of you in all this, it is a trauma to be in fight or flight mode even once a day (and it can often be more if my son is feeling particularly unsafe and anxious) and we need to recover and be kind to ourselves, as Sandra has said not a whole day in a spa or anything, but going somewhere quiet for a few mins to deep breath or meditate, have a bath or shower, or a short walk or nap. I have found this particularly good advice that has taken me FAR too long to listen too…mainly because I used to feel guilty or want to just dwell on it and feel sorry for myself instead - again toxic….
Anyway seems I have written a lot too! Thank you for writing this on here and sparking this discussion - my son is going through a more intense patch at the moment with increased anxiety and some OCD and we are having to make some summer plan changes and reject some offers of things (it's the summer hols so lots of invites etc..) to help him stay safe and calm, and writing this has been a good reminder for me that we are doing better by doing this.
Unschooling and words of advice on here and especially from Sandra over the last two years have helped immensely on our journey and as I have written on here before been BIG keys to doors for me and my family, mostly to see that there is no one set way of doing things, no 'hand book' to follow, if we are helping towards better for our sons then thats good and thats what it is all about.
I do of course realise that you will have to be more creative in this than me with 4/5 kids, but it is worth the effort and my son and I are closer than ever and more deeply connected, and he, like your son shares so many things with me thats I know other mums are not privy too from their sons, and I love the times we spend together just us - he always says such lovely things to me about me, wonderful compliments, and about himself at those times and I think and hope these will be treasured memories for him, they certainly are for me.
Janine x
Joyce Fetteroll
Have you read through these ideas on transitions?
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/transitions.html
To a kid who loves staying home, it can feel like they never get to say home. To out and about kids it can feel like they never get out. It can help when there are specific days of the week that are preplanned to be home days and other days that are preplanned to be out of the house days. That way kids can mentally prepare for their less favorite days.
It also sounds like he's deschooling. He's spent 4 (or more) years of his life being forced out of the house to do something he didn't want to do. The resentment, the need to feel he never has to be forced again, need time to heal. You're not giving him that time. He has, in essence, a broken leg. You keep pulling him off the couch before it's healed. That's going to delay the healing. (So the more you can help him stay home on out days, the faster his recovery will be.)
But the couch isn't the only place he can heal. Think about how you can to bring his home life with you so he can recover while on the run. Ask here for ideas :-)
*** Also, I WANT him to be with us. ***
Which you're willing to do by force. If your husband forced you to accompany him to football games with the same tactics, would it feel like he wanted you with him? Or would it feel like he had some freaky control issues that he needed you to live your life the way he thought it best?
*** I try discussing it rationally with him ***
Your husband: "I tried discussing it rationally with her that the rest of the family decided we'd *all* be going to this football game. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, she starts yelling, we get into a huge fight."
Does that downward spiral seem at all the wife's fault?
*** Friday we decided ***
We? Who was "we"? Be alert to uses of we that aren't really everyone.
*** He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. ***
It's very likely you're seeing what you want to. Perhaps for a bit it did sound fun to him.
But your purpose in talking to him wasn't to understand him and help him with what he wanted and needed. It was to get him to meet your own wants. At that point you'd backed yourself into a position where his needs were irrelevant because the rest of the family's day depended on him complying.
*** we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day
Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing
a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. ***
So Julian is not part of the family now. It's all you out-going people versus Julian. Sunday is a day to recover from the day Julian may have enjoyed? How much time did you spend on Julian's day connecting with him?
*** "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM!
WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end
of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). ***
Which to him sounds like, "Ladidadida! Not listening! Don't care about your needs!" (And it sounds like that to me too.)
You could have taken him out of the room away from the drums while the others listened. Perhaps he's sensitive to sound. You could carry ear plugs in your purse. You could have stood at the back of the room with him.
But I think you're so used to tuning out his inconvenient needs that he feels he needs to fight to get exactly what he's asking for. So it's possible nothing at that point would have felt like "I hear you. I understand. I will help you."
It could be he'd reached his overload point. You perceived him as being convenient to your needs then suddenly not. From his point of view perhaps he was kindly going along, making the best of the situation he was stuck in, but when it became too much for him, you didn't care. You wanted more from him. You're not seeing him, just seeing what you want to see.
*** I tell him calmly we will leave at the end
of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). ***
This is a big blind spot in conventional parenting. It seems that by making kids think of others' needs they will learn to think of others' needs.
Usually the opposite happens. Regardless of the intent, what they *hear* is "Your needs aren't important. Think of others needs." There are two common ways that message gets internalized. It can either be "Screw other people's needs. If I want my needs met I need to do it myself." Or, "My needs really aren't important. I always need to put myself second." (Some kids do learn a more moderate response but it's *despite* the message rather than because of it.)
If you want your kids to think of others, build that into helping them. Don't make it his needs or their needs. Find ways to each (and yourself!) without taking from the others. Let him and them see how to work everyone's needs into a solution rather meeting one person's need while denying others' their needs. For instance, if you need to stop for coffee, stop at a place where they can play. Or take it to a park. Don't turn it into a situation where they need to shut their needs down so you can meet yours. Treat everyone's needs with compassion.
Sometimes needs can't be met all at once. Sometimes it means "Let's do this first, then we'll do that". (Like having scheduled home days and scheduled out days.) Sometimes it's "We can do that tomorrow. Let's see what we can do now that will make the waiting easier." But the less "later", the more listened to your kids will feel.
*** He will throw out full on tantrums in public ***
Tantrums are a last resort to communicate. They're "MY GOD WHY ISN'T ANYONE LISTENING TO ME??" If kids need to resort to tantrums to be heard they can learn to skip the more socially acceptable ways and jump right to tantrum. It's possible Julian has learned to suppress his feelings. He doesn't show the subtle signals all along that he's running out of energy and patience because he know you'll ignore them.
Maybe it would help to see him as handicapped. Right now you're resenting the fact that he's in a wheelchair and not running with the other kids. It's either the running kids get to do what they want OR your handicapped son gets his way.
If he really were in a wheelchair, you'd build that into your plans, not leave his wheelchair needs as a resentful afterthought. You'd think in terms of AND. You have energetic kids AND a son who likes more quiet. Bring ways he can retreat to so there can be *choices* for energetic activities AND quiet rather than either their needs OR his needs. Help him pack a backpack with an iPad, books, hand held game, snacks, iPod with headphones to tune out the noise. Don't put the onus on him of creating this space. Helping him with his quiet needs is as much a part of being a mom as helping the others with their energetic needs. Help him remember a bag. Bring things yourself. Scope out places for him to retreat to. Point them out. Even if he doesn't use them, let him know you're thinking of his needs. Being able to choose to join into activities knowing that you can retreat is a whole different world from joining into activities being the only choice.
Joyce
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/transitions.html
To a kid who loves staying home, it can feel like they never get to say home. To out and about kids it can feel like they never get out. It can help when there are specific days of the week that are preplanned to be home days and other days that are preplanned to be out of the house days. That way kids can mentally prepare for their less favorite days.
It also sounds like he's deschooling. He's spent 4 (or more) years of his life being forced out of the house to do something he didn't want to do. The resentment, the need to feel he never has to be forced again, need time to heal. You're not giving him that time. He has, in essence, a broken leg. You keep pulling him off the couch before it's healed. That's going to delay the healing. (So the more you can help him stay home on out days, the faster his recovery will be.)
But the couch isn't the only place he can heal. Think about how you can to bring his home life with you so he can recover while on the run. Ask here for ideas :-)
*** Also, I WANT him to be with us. ***
Which you're willing to do by force. If your husband forced you to accompany him to football games with the same tactics, would it feel like he wanted you with him? Or would it feel like he had some freaky control issues that he needed you to live your life the way he thought it best?
*** I try discussing it rationally with him ***
Your husband: "I tried discussing it rationally with her that the rest of the family decided we'd *all* be going to this football game. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, she starts yelling, we get into a huge fight."
Does that downward spiral seem at all the wife's fault?
*** Friday we decided ***
We? Who was "we"? Be alert to uses of we that aren't really everyone.
*** He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. ***
It's very likely you're seeing what you want to. Perhaps for a bit it did sound fun to him.
But your purpose in talking to him wasn't to understand him and help him with what he wanted and needed. It was to get him to meet your own wants. At that point you'd backed yourself into a position where his needs were irrelevant because the rest of the family's day depended on him complying.
*** we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day
Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing
a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. ***
So Julian is not part of the family now. It's all you out-going people versus Julian. Sunday is a day to recover from the day Julian may have enjoyed? How much time did you spend on Julian's day connecting with him?
*** "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM!
WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end
of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). ***
Which to him sounds like, "Ladidadida! Not listening! Don't care about your needs!" (And it sounds like that to me too.)
You could have taken him out of the room away from the drums while the others listened. Perhaps he's sensitive to sound. You could carry ear plugs in your purse. You could have stood at the back of the room with him.
But I think you're so used to tuning out his inconvenient needs that he feels he needs to fight to get exactly what he's asking for. So it's possible nothing at that point would have felt like "I hear you. I understand. I will help you."
It could be he'd reached his overload point. You perceived him as being convenient to your needs then suddenly not. From his point of view perhaps he was kindly going along, making the best of the situation he was stuck in, but when it became too much for him, you didn't care. You wanted more from him. You're not seeing him, just seeing what you want to see.
*** I tell him calmly we will leave at the end
of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). ***
This is a big blind spot in conventional parenting. It seems that by making kids think of others' needs they will learn to think of others' needs.
Usually the opposite happens. Regardless of the intent, what they *hear* is "Your needs aren't important. Think of others needs." There are two common ways that message gets internalized. It can either be "Screw other people's needs. If I want my needs met I need to do it myself." Or, "My needs really aren't important. I always need to put myself second." (Some kids do learn a more moderate response but it's *despite* the message rather than because of it.)
If you want your kids to think of others, build that into helping them. Don't make it his needs or their needs. Find ways to each (and yourself!) without taking from the others. Let him and them see how to work everyone's needs into a solution rather meeting one person's need while denying others' their needs. For instance, if you need to stop for coffee, stop at a place where they can play. Or take it to a park. Don't turn it into a situation where they need to shut their needs down so you can meet yours. Treat everyone's needs with compassion.
Sometimes needs can't be met all at once. Sometimes it means "Let's do this first, then we'll do that". (Like having scheduled home days and scheduled out days.) Sometimes it's "We can do that tomorrow. Let's see what we can do now that will make the waiting easier." But the less "later", the more listened to your kids will feel.
*** He will throw out full on tantrums in public ***
Tantrums are a last resort to communicate. They're "MY GOD WHY ISN'T ANYONE LISTENING TO ME??" If kids need to resort to tantrums to be heard they can learn to skip the more socially acceptable ways and jump right to tantrum. It's possible Julian has learned to suppress his feelings. He doesn't show the subtle signals all along that he's running out of energy and patience because he know you'll ignore them.
Maybe it would help to see him as handicapped. Right now you're resenting the fact that he's in a wheelchair and not running with the other kids. It's either the running kids get to do what they want OR your handicapped son gets his way.
If he really were in a wheelchair, you'd build that into your plans, not leave his wheelchair needs as a resentful afterthought. You'd think in terms of AND. You have energetic kids AND a son who likes more quiet. Bring ways he can retreat to so there can be *choices* for energetic activities AND quiet rather than either their needs OR his needs. Help him pack a backpack with an iPad, books, hand held game, snacks, iPod with headphones to tune out the noise. Don't put the onus on him of creating this space. Helping him with his quiet needs is as much a part of being a mom as helping the others with their energetic needs. Help him remember a bag. Bring things yourself. Scope out places for him to retreat to. Point them out. Even if he doesn't use them, let him know you're thinking of his needs. Being able to choose to join into activities knowing that you can retreat is a whole different world from joining into activities being the only choice.
Joyce
Megan Valnes
-=-Can you shift your thinking to see him in a more generous light?-=-
Yes, I really need to do this. He is a gift and you're all right, that I've labeled him myself and he knows it.
-=-Is there anyone who can watch him? Do you have a friend you could invite over? Can you afford to hire someone? -=-
We do have help 5 (M-F) days a week until 4pm, so many days he is allowed to stay home and do is thing. For example, yesterday was our communities unschooling park day and Julian did not go. He stayed home and I did not give him any guilt trips. He really doesn't like the park day and yesterday expressed that there "were too many activities in a row" so he needed the day to relax. And when we got home, he was great, not hyper at all.
-=-Is it possible he feels bullied himself?-=-
Yes. Definitely. This makes me sad, but I know I need to change my approach.
-=-How much to you watch tv, play games and read comics with him? How often do you spend time doing what he enjoys doing? You have three other children to consider, of course, but I have observed that when a parent really embraces her child's interests, the child often (though not always) softens in regards to sharing time. It might be worth considering, if it isn't something you already do.-=-
I do spend time with him watching his shows and we play Yu Gi Oh! probably 5 times a week. There is room for improvement though. I could definitely spend more time watching his shows. He's been asking me to watch The Regular Show with him lately and I haven't yet. I'm going to make more time for his needs. Because even when I do play with him, I think there may be some resentment there. Like I'm thinking "man, there is so much I could be doing right now." Instead of realizing that I am doing so much by being there with him.
Warmly,
Megan
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Megan Valnes <meganvalnes@...> wrote:Hello,This question is regarding my 10 year old son, Julian. Julian is the oldest of 4 children (soon to be 5). We embarked on our unschooling journey in February of this year and Julian was halfway thru 4th grade when we decided to take the kids out of school.Since we've been out of school, Julian has been decompressing by watching a lot of his favorite shows on TV, playing his video games, reading, and drawing his comic books. He doesn't really like to leave the house. In the beginning, he was staying up till all hours (because he could) and sleeping half the day. Recently, he's been putting himself to bed earlier and earlier on his own accord and waking up in time to join the rest of us on our family activities, which I love because I miss him when he's not with us.The difficult issue I am dealing with (and the other kids and my husband) is the fact that getting Julian to go anywhere with us is usually a BIG fight, accompanied by some tears, and eventually he comes with us. Why would I force him? Well, sometimes, we have help here at home and he can stay home if he chooses, but other times like yesterday, there is no one at home to watch him and I don't feel comfortable leaving him alone for 5 hours or more. Also, I WANT him to be with us. I feel like he misses so many of our outings that it's like he's not part of the family. And when we have been gone on one our days, by the time we get home, my other kids and I are pooped out from the day and Julian is hyper and full of energy because he's essentially been sitting all day, so he becomes disruptive to the other's bedtime routines and the mood just changes.Here are a couple examples: Friday we decided to do a beach day and visit the tidepools. My 19 year old niece also joined us, and Julian adores her, so I thought it'd be an easy answer. I spoke with Julian about our plan the night before (because he does need time to prepare for outings) and gave him the whole rundown. He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. Friday morning comes and I prepare lunches and beach bags for everyone and get all ready. Julian wakes up and I cheerfully remind him "we're going to the tidepools today!" and he states he does not want to go and he never said he would. I try discussing it rationally with him (there's no choice in this matter) and get nowhere. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, he starts yelling, we get into a huge fight where we're both actually crying, and then I say fine, stay, and then he decides to come with us. He ends up having a wonderful time and we all have a great day, go out for sushi for dinner, and get home late that night. And he was tired out. We came home, he relaxed with a show, and went to bed. The day was lovely except for that huge fight in the morning.Yesterday, same basic thing. The difference being I did not give any warning the night before because we decided same day what we were going to do. I wake up with the other kids and we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. He says no way, he doesn't want to go. Well, again, there's no choice because my husband was working all day and I didn't want to leave him alone all day. So he gets ready to go with minimal resistance and then puts up a big fight when we're walking out the door. So again, we both start yelling, tears, etc. This just raises my stress level and I'm pregnant so I feel every emotion ten fold (at least that's how it feels in my brain) plus my son is upset and screaming at me that I force him to do things he doesn't want to do. I remind him how much fun he had at the beach and maybe he'll have fun at the museum too. This does not resonate with him and he literally goes into tantrum mode (I'm talking wailing, kicking, slamming things, and getting very physical). Finally, we make it out the door to the museum and lo and behold he has a wonderful time. I mean, the kid has so much fun, even I can hardly believe it. He plays with his brother and sisters (and his sister's friend) and is overall very happy.Then the museum has a special guest of these people that put on drum circles, so we all go and join the really fun drum circle, bang on our djembes, sing along, my other kids and I are all laughing and really getting into the drumming, and suddenly Julian stops drumming and starts saying in my ear thru clenched teeth "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM! WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). He continues to freak out in my ear for a while and then sits down and waits the rest of the song out calmly. We go eat on the way home and all is well for the rest of the day.My husband has been urging me to write to y'all for some time and I've known I need to. I just feel so lost with Julian. In some ways, our relationship is better than ever. He is confiding to me about things I never knew before. He is really opening up about his feelings. He is able to express himself in very mature ways when all is well and calm. We have definitely become much closer. On the other hand, it is a fight whenever we have to do something he doesn't want to do, but sometimes I just can't give him a choice, and sometimes I don't want to give him a choice because I don't want him to miss all of our activities, especially when I know he'll enjoy himself once we're there. And he, of all my children, is the only one who throws tantrums. He will throw out full on tantrums in public, where I have to physically remove him from what we're doing. He is almost as big as I am and the bigger I get with this baby, the harder it is for me to deal with him. I try to make him happy. I do my best to keep him full of food, sleep, and things he enjoys. I play his games with him, watch his shows with him, and of course, I really love him. This fighting kills me.He is definitely the child most difficult for me. He always has been. Sometimes I think I should just let him stay home all the time because it would make my life so much easier, but I cringe at the fact of him missing so many family adventures. I would like some suggestions as to how to keep the peace better with him. I also need suggestions as to how to keep him more peaceful. He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister. Yesterday at the museum I caught him holding his little brother by his head up against a wall and the look of terror in my 5-year-olds eyes made me incredibly sad. I separated them and said to Julian "Imagine how terrifying that is for Zack. He looked really scared. You are much bigger than him. You don't have to get physical because he's not doing what you want him to." Julian just walked away and I'm not sure how he internalized it.Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes? Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him? I'm sorry this is so lengthy, but it feels like a really big problem when it's happening. I want to be thorough in my explanation. Input is gladly received. Thank you.
Warmly,
Megan
Megan Valnes
-=-Does he get anxious around the crowds/noise? Does he enjoy certain activities more than others?-=-
He does enjoy seeing movies the best. I think maybe you all have picked up on something that I've been missing, which is that he is very sensitive to noise. Although he can handle the big noise in loud violent movies, video games, and TV, he does not like it when the buzz of people is too loud. Too many voices talking or crowded rooms. I never really realized that before.
Warmly,
Megan
On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 6:21 PM, K Pennell mrsringsabre@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Megan,Depending where you live, letting your ten yr old stay home for five plus hours might get you in trouble, so your instincts may be right on that.Is there anyone Julian could sometimes stay with, or who could come stay with him? That way perhaps sometimes he can stay, so he feels like he has some control. Has it always been hard for him to go out? Does he get anxious around the crowds/noise? Does he enjoy certain activities more than others? It sounds like the tidal pools were a big hit, but the museum maybe not (the drums bothered him, and if he had his little brother against the wall, he might have been agitated or stressed by the environment). If you could pinpoint the kinds of activities that are harder for him, and either avoid them altogether, or make other arrangements for him, it might be helpful.Is it possible for your 19 year old niece to come stay with him sometimes while you go out? Or go with you to help with him if you all go out and he becomes overwhelmed? If he knew someone was there that was able to take him to a quiet place (with something he'd enjoy, like an iPad), he might feel more relaxed about the outing?
From: "Megan Valnes meganvalnes@... [AlwaysLearning]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 1:34 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Forcing
Hello,This question is regarding my 10 year old son, Julian. Julian is the oldest of 4 children (soon to be 5). We embarked on our unschooling journey in February of this year and Julian was halfway thru 4th grade when we decided to take the kids out of school.Since we've been out of school, Julian has been decompressing by watching a lot of his favorite shows on TV, playing his video games, reading, and drawing his comic books. He doesn't really like to leave the house. In the beginning, he was staying up till all hours (because he could) and sleeping half the day. Recently, he's been putting himself to bed earlier and earlier on his own accord and waking up in time to join the rest of us on our family activities, which I love because I miss him when he's not with us.The difficult issue I am dealing with (and the other kids and my husband) is the fact that getting Julian to go anywhere with us is usually a BIG fight, accompanied by some tears, and eventually he comes with us. Why would I force him? Well, sometimes, we have help here at home and he can stay home if he chooses, but other times like yesterday, there is no one at home to watch him and I don't feel comfortable leaving him alone for 5 hours or more. Also, I WANT him to be with us. I feel like he misses so many of our outings that it's like he's not part of the family. And when we have been gone on one our days, by the time we get home, my other kids and I are pooped out from the day and Julian is hyper and full of energy because he's essentially been sitting all day, so he becomes disruptive to the other's bedtime routines and the mood just changes.Here are a couple examples: Friday we decided to do a beach day and visit the tidepools. My 19 year old niece also joined us, and Julian adores her, so I thought it'd be an easy answer. I spoke with Julian about our plan the night before (because he does need time to prepare for outings) and gave him the whole rundown. He was positive about it and seemed happy to go. Friday morning comes and I prepare lunches and beach bags for everyone and get all ready. Julian wakes up and I cheerfully remind him "we're going to the tidepools today!" and he states he does not want to go and he never said he would. I try discussing it rationally with him (there's no choice in this matter) and get nowhere. So then I become irrational. Angry. Upset. Hurt. I start yelling, he starts yelling, we get into a huge fight where we're both actually crying, and then I say fine, stay, and then he decides to come with us. He ends up having a wonderful time and we all have a great day, go out for sushi for dinner, and get home late that night. And he was tired out. We came home, he relaxed with a show, and went to bed. The day was lovely except for that huge fight in the morning.Yesterday, same basic thing. The difference being I did not give any warning the night before because we decided same day what we were going to do. I wake up with the other kids and we all want to get out of the house because we had stayed home all day Saturday, so we decide to try out this little children's museum I've been hearing a lot about. Julian wakes up and I let him know what we're doing. He says no way, he doesn't want to go. Well, again, there's no choice because my husband was working all day and I didn't want to leave him alone all day. So he gets ready to go with minimal resistance and then puts up a big fight when we're walking out the door. So again, we both start yelling, tears, etc. This just raises my stress level and I'm pregnant so I feel every emotion ten fold (at least that's how it feels in my brain) plus my son is upset and screaming at me that I force him to do things he doesn't want to do. I remind him how much fun he had at the beach and maybe he'll have fun at the museum too. This does not resonate with him and he literally goes into tantrum mode (I'm talking wailing, kicking, slamming things, and getting very physical). Finally, we make it out the door to the museum and lo and behold he has a wonderful time. I mean, the kid has so much fun, even I can hardly believe it. He plays with his brother and sisters (and his sister's friend) and is overall very happy.Then the museum has a special guest of these people that put on drum circles, so we all go and join the really fun drum circle, bang on our djembes, sing along, my other kids and I are all laughing and really getting into the drumming, and suddenly Julian stops drumming and starts saying in my ear thru clenched teeth "WE NEED TO LEAVE NOW! I WANT TO THROW THIS DRUM! WE NEED TO GO NOW!" I tell him calmly we will leave at the end of the song (because my other kids are really enjoying themselves). He continues to freak out in my ear for a while and then sits down and waits the rest of the song out calmly. We go eat on the way home and all is well for the rest of the day.My husband has been urging me to write to y'all for some time and I've known I need to. I just feel so lost with Julian. In some ways, our relationship is better than ever. He is confiding to me about things I never knew before. He is really opening up about his feelings. He is able to express himself in very mature ways when all is well and calm. We have definitely become much closer. On the other hand, it is a fight whenever we have to do something he doesn't want to do, but sometimes I just can't give him a choice, and sometimes I don't want to give him a choice because I don't want him to miss all of our activities, especially when I know he'll enjoy himself once we're there. And he, of all my children, is the only one who throws tantrums. He will throw out full on tantrums in public, where I have to physically remove him from what we're doing. He is almost as big as I am and the bigger I get with this baby, the harder it is for me to deal with him. I try to make him happy. I do my best to keep him full of food, sleep, and things he enjoys. I play his games with him, watch his shows with him, and of course, I really love him. This fighting kills me.He is definitely the child most difficult for me. He always has been. Sometimes I think I should just let him stay home all the time because it would make my life so much easier, but I cringe at the fact of him missing so many family adventures. I would like some suggestions as to how to keep the peace better with him. I also need suggestions as to how to keep him more peaceful. He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister. Yesterday at the museum I caught him holding his little brother by his head up against a wall and the look of terror in my 5-year-olds eyes made me incredibly sad. I separated them and said to Julian "Imagine how terrifying that is for Zack. He looked really scared. You are much bigger than him. You don't have to get physical because he's not doing what you want him to." Julian just walked away and I'm not sure how he internalized it.Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes? Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to do, even if there is no one here to watch him? I'm sorry this is so lengthy, but it feels like a really big problem when it's happening. I want to be thorough in my explanation. Input is gladly received. Thank you.
Warmly,
Megan
Megan Valnes
Janine, it sounds as though our sons are very similar.
-=-There had been damage to my son - I still think that deep down he thinks there is something wrong with him-=-
I know there has been damage too, some of it caused by me! I hate that thought. However, he has recently been confiding in me about some of his past damage (even from myself) and how life is getting better for him now and he's so happy he's not in school. He is able to articulate himself very well, so that's been very helpful as well. Like you, I need to change my view of him. Instead of seeing him as "my difficult child", which I'm sure he's heard me say or picked up on in the books I read, I need to let him know what a treasure he is. Because he is. He has so many attributes that my other kids don't have. He is so unique, funny (hilarious), and smart! So smart. He blows me away with his knowledge. And you're right, these thoughts and labels are toxic. I'm glad to hear it's gotten easier for you too, because my son was 9 when we left school, so we're in that same stage. Acceptance is key it seems.
Warmly,
Megan
CASS KOTRBA
-=- Is it wrong that I force him to go out with us sometimes?
Should I just let him stay home and watch TV if that's what he wants to
do -=-
I also have a 10 year old son & we've been unschooling for 2
years. When we have an activity planned he is often resistant when it
comes time to leave, even if he was excited before. If he refuses to go I
tell him it's his choice. I live in a small community and do feel safe
leaving him for a couple of hours & usually we can find a way to
accommodate him. I mention to him the reasons I thought he might
enjoy going & then I go about getting myself & everything ready.
If there will be nobody else home with him I make sure to tell him that so he
can factor that into his thinking. He prefers not to be alone. As he
watches me & possibly his sister or dad getting ready he continues playing
his game or whatever but he is also watching us & thinking. About
4 times out of 5 he will change his mind at the last minute and decide to
come. My tendency in the past would probably have been to push him "for
his own good". By giving him the choice he knows he has the
power to say "no" & that it's his decision to go. I have been
surprised at how often he will decide that his current activity can
wait & he'd rather come. He is then at peace with his decision &
free to have whatever feelings naturally arise during the activity.
-Cass
Megan Valnes
Joyce,
Everything you said is right on. Right on. I really laughed out loud because I thought "this woman is looking through our window right now!" :)
-=-It also sounds like he's deschooling. He's spent 4 (or more) years of his life being forced out of the house to do something he didn't want to do. The resentment, the need to feel he never has to be forced again, need time to heal. You're not giving him that time. He has, in essence, a broken leg. You keep pulling him off the couch before it's healed. That's going to delay the healing. (So the more you can help him stay home on out days, the faster his recovery will be.)-=-
Yes, this is definitely true. I keep telling myself, don't push him, don't get angry, he's only been out of school 5 months, he's deschooling! And then I go against what I know to be the better option. I do push him. I am pulling him off the couch with a broken leg and expecting him to run. And then getting angry when he doesn't. I see this clearly now. And I don't want to keep repeating this mistake.
-=-Usually the opposite happens. Regardless of the intent, what they *hear* is "Your needs aren't important. Think of others needs." There are two common ways that message gets internalized. It can either be "Screw other people's needs. If I want my needs met I need to do it myself." Or, "My needs really aren't important. I always need to put myself second." (Some kids do learn a more moderate response but it's *despite* the message rather than because of it.)-=-
Yes, this is also true. When I didn't take him out of the drum circle, I was being selfish. Because guess what? I was having fun too. I love drum circles. And the smiling faces of my other kids justified (in my head) me ignoring Julian's needs. I should have done exactly what you suggested and walked him out to a more quiet place and helped him be more comfortable.
I also really like the idea of scheduled out days and in days. And on the in days, I know it would send Julian over the moon if he and I did something special. Even just going to the library. He loves going and picking out new books and also the comic book store for Yu Gi Oh! cards. Then we could come home and watch some TV together. Like I said, I do have help during the week, so it would be very possible for us to have some alone time together, which I know he absolutely loves. Or we could do nothing at all, but stay home, and I could just focus on him. He would be so happy and so would I because I always feel so great after we have positive interactions.
-=-Tantrums are a last resort to communicate. They're "MY GOD WHY ISN'T ANYONE LISTENING TO ME??" If kids need to resort to tantrums to be heard they can learn to skip the more socially acceptable ways and jump right to tantrum. It's possible Julian has learned to suppress his feelings. He doesn't show the subtle signals all along that he's running out of energy and patience because he know you'll ignore them.-=-
Yes, he knows I'll ignore them. Because that's what I've taught him. I've always had other needs to attend to and his have been put on the back burner. I've also labeled him as "the difficult child" and as someone else pointed out, that's what he's living up to.
So I have a lot to work on. Mainly, I will try to focus on his needs. And keep his happiness and peace in the front of my mind. I have a demanding and competitive personality and I need to reign it in. I also need to put my kids needs first and practice more compassion. Growing up (and to this day), my mother ALWAYS put herself first, and I resented her for it for many years. I never wanted to be like her. My father, on the other hand, always put me first, and my needs, and he and I are still extremely close. Because he sees me as this capable woman, he saw me as a capable child, and he instilled a trust of myself in myself. I want to be like him. In reality, I see myself as a mix of both parents. I can sometimes totally put myself first and tell the kids to deal with it, and that hurts them. I want Julian to know that I trust him to be himself and do what's right and I'm here to help him. To guide him when he needs it and to support him when he needs it.
Thank you so much. This is the beginning.
Warmly,
Megan
semajrak@...
<<He really doesn't like the park day and yesterday expressed that there "were too many activities in a row" so he needed the day to relax.>>
My son sounds very much like your own. The drumming would have really upset my son too. He likes the idea of drumming -- the rhythms, the power of the drum, the skill of drumming. He wouldn't enjoy being in a room with a group of drummers though. Not at all. Outside, at a distance...maybe. For my son, loud sounds seem so uncomfortable they leave me thinking they are painful for him to experience. I certainly wouldn't want to knowingly force him to experience something painful.
My son sounds very much like your own. The drumming would have really upset my son too. He likes the idea of drumming -- the rhythms, the power of the drum, the skill of drumming. He wouldn't enjoy being in a room with a group of drummers though. Not at all. Outside, at a distance...maybe. For my son, loud sounds seem so uncomfortable they leave me thinking they are painful for him to experience. I certainly wouldn't want to knowingly force him to experience something painful.
My own son also doesn't prefer to be too busy with people, especially groups. He eventually gets overwhelmed by a lot of people sounds. He does enjoy being busy thinking about and doing his own activities. He loves it if I'll watch or play with him, or listen to his ideas surrounding what he is interested in. But, he likes breathing room between activities that have him doing something other than he had planned for himself, or something that includes other people. Even good friends.
He doesn't prefer last minute plans, so I've learned to plan ahead, as well as to not make too many plans in any given week. He can be more spontaneous, but I try not to expect that from him on a regular basis. It's not what he prefers.
He doesn't enjoy being interrupted. Consequently, I've learned to pay attention to where he is at in an activity, so I know when to ask him to pause. I have also learned to give him information if I know we will be needing to leave the house in the near future. "If you are planning on watching a video, don't pick one longer than half an hour, because we will have to leave." That kind of notice aims to accommodate his wishes and mine.
These practices don't always work as smoothly as I hope for, but my actions and words do let him know I'm thinking about him, and care enough to work toward everyone having their needs met. I do my best to listen to his feelings and consider his preferences when I'm making plans for us both. I've noticed that as he matures, he is learning to consider other people's ideas and feelings more and more. This hasn't happened because I told him he should do so. I believe it came about because he knows what it feels like to have his own ideas and feelings considered and valued, and is making a choice to reciprocate.
It's really wonderful that your son can express the above statement to you! He prefers to space activities out, and he needs time to relax. Add that information to your toolbox of things to know about your lovely boy. Look at those tools when you make future choices.
Karen.
It's really wonderful that your son can express the above statement to you! He prefers to space activities out, and he needs time to relax. Add that information to your toolbox of things to know about your lovely boy. Look at those tools when you make future choices.
Karen.
Shannon Stoltz
>>I also really like the idea of scheduled out days and in days. And on the in days, I know it would send Julian over the moon if he and I did something special. Even just going to the library. He loves going and picking out new books and also the comic book store for Yu Gi Oh! cards. Then we could come home and watch some TV together. Like I said, I do have help during the week, so it would be very possible for us to have some alone time together, which I know he absolutely loves. Or we could do nothing at all, but stay home, and I could just focus on him. He would be so happy and so would I because I always feel so great after we have positive interactions.<<
Megan,
Megan,
I'd really encourage you to make schedule days in - where you go no where and are mentally present. Some connection ideas when at home: bringing snacks and drinks when he's engaged in a show or game, listening to him talk about his games or shows and other activities, watching & playing with him. It's centering for the kids (and adults) for someone to bring them their favorite things, to listen to what they have to say, and fully engage in their interests.
And then separately from all your other activities, also to schedule specific special time outings with him, time to just spend with him and create memories together - to the library or the comic book store, or to do something that he wants to do.
Each family is different and each family member dynamic is different. As an example, here everyone has at least 1-2 days at home with no schedule, no outings. My daughter who needs lots of space and introspection time has at least 5 hours of quiet space to herself each day. We're present for her, but make sure she has the space and time to recharge and protect that for her. My children who need more interaction have specific routines we do together, for example, every week my older son and I go out to a fast food place, spend a <$5 to sit and talk and play magic the gathering. Other examples include reading aloud, or building a project together.
And then for each of the kids once a month they have a Saturday date where my husband or I (we switch off months), take the kids out for special time. The budget is $20 and the kids decide what we are going to do - sometimes it's a matinee, or shopping, or ice cream, or going to the shooting range. whatever they are in the mood for, that's what we do. The kids *love* this one-on-one time. When we first started this our budget could only handle $10, and that still gave the kids that special time to do something special for them with one of us and build more connections and memories
And then separately from all your other activities, also to schedule specific special time outings with him, time to just spend with him and create memories together - to the library or the comic book store, or to do something that he wants to do.
Each family is different and each family member dynamic is different. As an example, here everyone has at least 1-2 days at home with no schedule, no outings. My daughter who needs lots of space and introspection time has at least 5 hours of quiet space to herself each day. We're present for her, but make sure she has the space and time to recharge and protect that for her. My children who need more interaction have specific routines we do together, for example, every week my older son and I go out to a fast food place, spend a <$5 to sit and talk and play magic the gathering. Other examples include reading aloud, or building a project together.
And then for each of the kids once a month they have a Saturday date where my husband or I (we switch off months), take the kids out for special time. The budget is $20 and the kids decide what we are going to do - sometimes it's a matinee, or shopping, or ice cream, or going to the shooting range. whatever they are in the mood for, that's what we do. The kids *love* this one-on-one time. When we first started this our budget could only handle $10, and that still gave the kids that special time to do something special for them with one of us and build more connections and memories
...Shannon
kgharriman1@...
Hi Megan
I understand the hormonal pregnancy thing as I also remember being volatile and easily upset and just quite different to unpregnant state (especially during third and fourth pregnancies). Can totally empathise with this aspect of your situation. I look back and some days it was as if I was taken over by some crazy woman! Those hormones are so powerful, at least for me, both during and post partum for a good 6-12 months. Much more calm and even keeled these days with our youngest 2.5 and no pregnancy in sight (yet!). Give yourself a break and chill at home more... I am amazed that you are managing do what you are doing!
Is going out something you yourself feel compelled to do or are you okay to hang at home alot? One thing I do find to be very healing is definitely allowing lots and lots of chill time, hanging out time. Are you aiming to go out too many days in the week?
Our second daughter is similar to Julian. She's very sensitive to noise and gets anxious when we go out. She's 7 and its always been this. She's also highly emotional and sensitive. We have avoided situations to cater for her needs, though I wonder if our eldest as missed out as a result (she's alot more resilient to noise and emotional things).
We have our own challenges with meeting multiple and varied needs here and often the eldest ends up being the one to wait or accommodate the younger ones needs which from babyhood are very immediate. So its easy to see how that pattern continues. It has here, and I know Grace (our eldest) feels hard done by as a result. She's had to make way for three little siblings one of which required enormous amounts of my time as her needs were very high and immediate.
zannaboo@...
One other thought is perhaps you don't have to make it a big day every time you go out. Could you get season passes to one or two places and go on shorter outings to these? It is hard to be willing to go somewhere knowing you have the lowest tolerance. You know you will be out past your tolerance every time. Maybe he would be more willing to go if the trip were shorter and ended at a predetermined time (before he is likely to get overwhelmed).
We love to go places where we have passes because we don't feel like we need to get our money's worth every time we go. If we don't get to everything, there will be another trip.
You also might feel better leaving him home for shorter periods of time. But don't make the other kids feel like their trip is too short because of Julian.
plaidpanties666@...
>> I try discussing it rationally with him (there's no choice in this matter) and get nowhere.<<
You mentioned a lack of choice a few times. That's something to think about - why do you expect a person who doesn't have a choice to be happy about that? Even if it's something he wants to do, the fact that he doesn't have any say in the matter is unpalatable. It's unreasonable to expect another person to be sanguine about being powerless.
You mentioned a lack of choice a few times. That's something to think about - why do you expect a person who doesn't have a choice to be happy about that? Even if it's something he wants to do, the fact that he doesn't have any say in the matter is unpalatable. It's unreasonable to expect another person to be sanguine about being powerless.
>>Sometimes I think I should just let him stay home all the time because it would make my life so much easier, but I cringe at the fact of him missing so many family adventures. <<
Can the family stay home more? Can Some of the family stay home more so it's not him-vs-The Family? I was the odd one out in my family and it was really, really hard to have the weight of The Whole Family lined up against me.
It's not bad to make life easier. And it's not bad to miss out on "adventures" necessarily. If he's disappointed about having missed something, then that will be useful to him in terms of making decisions - he'll have more experience to draw from.
My stepson was really intense when he was little, and I found myself resisting the idea that it was okay to make his life easier. But once I stopped resisting, I found that making his life easier made Everyone's life easier. Everything got a lot less stressful. It was a lot of work to meet his needs, but it wasn't really any more work than dealing with the fallout when his needs weren't being met - and the reduction in stress meant that I had a lot more energy overall.
It's not bad to make life easier. And it's not bad to miss out on "adventures" necessarily. If he's disappointed about having missed something, then that will be useful to him in terms of making decisions - he'll have more experience to draw from.
My stepson was really intense when he was little, and I found myself resisting the idea that it was okay to make his life easier. But once I stopped resisting, I found that making his life easier made Everyone's life easier. Everything got a lot less stressful. It was a lot of work to meet his needs, but it wasn't really any more work than dealing with the fallout when his needs weren't being met - and the reduction in stress meant that I had a lot more energy overall.
>> He has the tendency to bully his younger brother and sister. <<I know I felt bullied by my family, as a kid, and turned that on other kids at school from time to time. I felt hemmed in, constricted, and as a result I didn't much care about others' feelings other than that they should feel as crummy as I did.
---Meredith
plaidpanties666@...
>>Too many voices talking or crowded rooms.<<That's an issue for my daughter, too. Which makes me wonder if some of the problem might come from trying to talk to him when there are too many other things going on in the same space. My daughter will shut down and become unresponsive if I try to ask her questions or talk to her if there's already too much talking around her - maybe your son is doing something similar.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
This is beautifully put, Meredith:
-=-My stepson was really intense when he was little, and I found myself resisting the idea that it was okay to make his life easier. But once I stopped resisting, I found that making his life easier made Everyone's life easier. Everything got a lot less stressful. It was a lot of work to meet his needs, but it wasn't really any more work than dealing with the fallout when his needs weren't being met - and the reduction in stress meant that I had a lot more energy overall. -=-
Being nice to another person is what makes one nice.
Being patient with another person is what makes one patient.
If a parent says, hatefully "BE GOOD," he's not being very good.
Instead of telling a young child "Be nice, and be patient," the parent should be nice, and patient. It's a generality, and a truism, but it's generally true. :-)
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Joyce's response was great, and I want to add a link to this part:
-=-We? Who was "we"? Be alert to uses of we that aren't really everyone. -=-
-=-*** Friday we decided ***
-=-We? Who was "we"? Be alert to uses of we that aren't really everyone. -=-
And if it was in a discussion, in a "family meeting," kids will often agree to something because THAT act seems to be what the mom wants—agreement. Or they will agree to get the meeting over with, so the mom will leave them alone.
The only way anyone can make a choice is if there actually IS a choice. Pretend choices can end up involving coercion. Sometimes, saying "we have no choice" is another abuse of "we" AND isn't true, either.
It helps to learn to be persuasive and to "sell" your outings, but that helps in any situation. Moving toward treating your child as you would treat an adult friend can be a good tool to use to move from an antagonistic relationship to a partnership.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- In reality, I see myself as a mix of both parents. I can sometimes totally put myself first and tell the kids to deal with it, and that hurts them. I want Julian to know that I trust him to be himself and do what's right and I'm here to help him. To guide him when he needs it and to support him when he needs it.-=-
You're looking at yourself, and at your parents behind, to see which parent you're more like.
It doesn't matter. Stop looking at yourself. Look at your child. Look at him directly, and lovingly.
Be your child's mother, not your mother's child.
-=-I want Julian to know that I trust him to be himself and do what's right and I'm here to help him. To guide him when he needs it and to support him when he needs it.-=-
Guide sometimes and support sometimes?
It still sounds like you're sorting and controlling and that YOU will know when he needs guidance and YOU will decide when he needs support.
There is a graph here.
Think about it.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Change comes gradually, and from doing, seeing.
Sandra
Megan Valnes
-=-Is going out something you yourself feel compelled to do or are you okay to hang at home alot?-=-
I do think I'm probably aiming to go out too much because that's my personality. I like to be out and about and there is a part of me that feels compelled to get the kids out more, now that we're unschooling. Also, my other kids really like to go out, but they also like to chill. I am definitely getting a schedule going and it will include more chill days.
-=-It doesn't matter. Stop looking at yourself. Look at your child. Look at him directly, and lovingly.-=-
Yes, this is key too. I am looking at myself and I need to look at Julian. I'm sure he does feel bullied. I know I can get aggressive, not physically, but my tone of voice and actions. I hate that my son has ever felt bullied by me and I don't want to keep repeating that behavior. I want him to feel safe, loved, and happy. Especially with his own family!
There are so many important points in this thread that have really helped me understand the situation better. Thank you all for your ideas and words.
Yesterday, we all went out for an outing to our local Science Center. We used the idea of bringing a backpack for Julian full of items that would be his "home away from home". We filled it with his mini iPad, headphones, books, sketch pad, and pen. All his favorite things. We left for the museum without a hitch and whenever I could see he was becoming upset or overwhelmed, he went to his backpack. This idea was brilliant for him! At lunchtime, when we were all eating at a picnic table, he became a bit overwhelmed and instead of melting down, he simply removed himself, went to a separate table, and pulled out his sketch pad and started drawing. He sat by himself until we were done and when it was time to go back inside the museum, he was cheerful and helpful! We had a great day!
I can see now that it is some weird freaky control issue that I'm wanting him do whatever the rest of the family (or I) want to do. I'm just going to keep reading these responses over and over and waiting. Watching. The awareness in my own actions has been really helpful...I'm noticing little patterns I have that do not display the qualities I want to see in my children. I'm trying to take a little more time and be kind with my responses and/or actions.
Warmly,
Megan
On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 4:17 PM, kgharriman1@... [AlwaysLearning] <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Megan
I understand the hormonal pregnancy thing as I also remember being volatile and easily upset and just quite different to unpregnant state (especially during third and fourth pregnancies). Can totally empathise with this aspect of your situation. I look back and some days it was as if I was taken over by some crazy woman! Those hormones are so powerful, at least for me, both during and post partum for a good 6-12 months. Much more calm and even keeled these days with our youngest 2.5 and no pregnancy in sight (yet!). Give yourself a break and chill at home more... I am amazed that you are managing do what you are doing!Is going out something you yourself feel compelled to do or are you okay to hang at home alot? One thing I do find to be very healing is definitely allowing lots and lots of chill time, hanging out time. Are you aiming to go out too many days in the week?Our second daughter is similar to Julian. She's very sensitive to noise and gets anxious when we go out. She's 7 and its always been this. She's also highly emotional and sensitive. We have avoided situations to cater for her needs, though I wonder if our eldest as missed out as a result (she's alot more resilient to noise and emotional things).We have our own challenges with meeting multiple and varied needs here and often the eldest ends up being the one to wait or accommodate the younger ones needs which from babyhood are very immediate. So its easy to see how that pattern continues. It has here, and I know Grace (our eldest) feels hard done by as a result. She's had to make way for three little siblings one of which required enormous amounts of my time as her needs were very high and immediate.
Sandra Dodd
-=- I hate that my son has ever felt bullied by me and I don't want to keep repeating that behavior. I want him to feel safe, loved, and happy. Especially with his own family!-=-
You seem very verbal about all this. I like verbal. But it can feel like bullying for someone to talk too much. I know; I do it sometimes (more than some) and have gradually learned to talk less.
The reason I bring this up is that it would be better for you to NEVER, ever, not even a little, express in words anything like "I hate that you have ever felt bullied by me and I don't want to keep repeating that behavior. I want you to feel safe, loved, and happy. Especially with your own family!"
Don't say it. Don't pressure him with your guilt or your wishes. Just be safe. Be loving. Be happy. Don't repeat that behavior. Don't talk it, do it. Happily and without a test.
Do it happily without sending the bill.
Do it happily without pulling it out of the ground to see if it's growing roots.
Sandra