Sandra Dodd

Someone had linked to me in a post on facebook, so I got an e-mail notification. It was yet another posting of a llink that's going around, of a ist of reasons to limit children.

Part of what she wrote was ""No, I'm not THIS far out. Just in the same camp. And I wonder how Sandra Dodd and others like her can continue to ignore the research. Unschooling is not synonymous with unlimited screen time.""


I responded (but I don't know if it will stay there) this:

You tagged me. That means many of my facebook friends will see your post. It's okay to refer to me without tagging me, if you want to say something negative. But because you DID tag me, it seems better to respond.

Huffington Post authors need hits to their pages to get more opportunities to be published in Huffington Post. Lists of things like that are not synonymous with research and most "research" done on how to make children better students is done by and for school and schooling (people working on advanced degrees in education so they can move up on the pay scale). The author of that article works with children who have developmental problems. Maybe she isn't very familiar with children who are not "behind," or who are not on the competitive conveyor belt at all.

How parents can ignore their own real, present, thinking children in favor of vague negativity and scare stories is a mystery.

Unschooling is not synonymous with anything. There are people who "unschool" except for…", and who "unschool mostly," but if their priorities are learning and peace, then arbitrary rules and decisions made on fear are less likely to seem like good ideas.

If an 11 year old is bummed, it might be worth really looking at his side of things. Being a child's partner in exploring the world is valuable in more ways than people can imagine, if they haven't done it. If the parent sees the child as an adversary who should be limited and made to wait until he's grown even to spend his own money, there will be more problems than they can imagine.

http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics

Pam Sorooshian wrote: "As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007

I have known her now-grown children since they were little. They are wonderful. They do all kinds of things, including really trusting their parents, and speaking fondly of their childhoods. They had all the TV, movies, computer-time and parental approval they wanted.

Her middle daughter, who is in graduate school, wrote this recently:
http://sandradodd.com/screentime/roxana

+++++++++++++++++

When someone wanted to bring that article on limits to this discussion, Joyce wrote, in saying it wasn't a good idea:

Two things: Bringing an article to the list is fine *if* you post *your* ideas sparked by it that you want to discuss. Tell the group what ideas you find compelling in the article.

If it's just feedback on how wrong the ideas are, that won't be useful for the list. It's not written by an unschooling parent nor intended for unschoolers. In that way it's not a lot different than an article about how all kids should be sent to school.
++++++++++++++++++

And Joyce is right. I send back (other moderators do too) things that are just "look at THIS!" or "I wanted to know what unschoolers thought of this [article/video/book/TEDtalk...]. Posts to this discussion should be, each of them, useful to unschoolers, by and about unschoolers, inspiring (or asking a question about a real unschooling situation in a person's life).

Because I responded to something and the response seemed worth sharing, here is that link. But when you read the article remember that it's not the good of individual humans they're looking at. It's school performance. Doctors assume that "health" involves doing well in school. Doctors believe that "health" involves being around the 50's percentile on charts created by doctors. They're not looking at individual, bright, healthy, happy children. They're looking at problems, and looking *for* problems.

If you turn and look the other way, you will see fewer problems, especially if you look at your own child's bright and happy eyes. And if your child has bright and happy eyes, do what you can to keep them that way.

Here is the link to that article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cris-rowan/10-reasons-why-handheld-devices-should-be-banned_b_4899218.html
The person who wrote it is listed as "pediatric occupational therapist, biologist, speaker, author"

10 Reasons Why Handheld Devices Should Be Banned for Children Under the Age of 12
Each item goes from tv or a game to things like early death, being locked in a room because of uncontrolled aggression (therapeutically in a mental hospital, maybe? not clear) and other dire and horrible things that will happen to MANY children (YOURS!!!) if governments do not ban the use of "handheld devices" in all children NOW!!! BAN THEM OR HORRIBLE THINGS WILL HAPPEN!
In #2 she's citing her own research. Movement is important. Technology use "restricts movement" which can cause delayed development. " One in three children now enter school developmentally delayed, negatively impacting literacy and academic achievement" she says. Probably NOT the children who were playing lots of games. They're probably the ones who are bored in school because they can already read and understand numbers far better than the identification of the numeral "3" that happens with developmentally delayed children.

Pediatric occupational therapists work with children who can't even hold a spoon or can't walk. I doubt she's been around many kids who are quick and more able. (I could be wrong about that.)

I'm just ranting now. I'll stop.

Sandra

Sherry Franklin

I had read the article this week and thought, "No non-violent games ages 6-12!!!!" What an arbitrary limit.

Sherry


Deanne Rosselli

"Pediatric occupational therapists work with children who can't even hold a spoon or can't walk."  

Sandra,  I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and the variety of abilities of the children I work with is much greater than that.   

I use the iPad in working with some of the children I see (currently ages 3-11), and I am not the only one.  The O.T. who wrote the article is an alarmist and fear mongering. It is sad and embarrassing that she has neglected her education and training, in which  the internal motivation and desires of the person receiving the therapy (child or adult) is critical.   The article also confuses correlation with causation in the research cited.

One of the things that drew me to unschooling when I first learned about it, is that is aligns with all that I had already learned about human development and psychology in my O.T. education.  Unschooling and O.T. are both focused on helping others to achieve their own goals, not imposing your own agenda on others.  Neither unschooling or O.T. are about limiting the lives of others.  They both are about facilitating access to and independence in the world at large.    

Deanne


<semajrak@...>

>>>>>If you turn and look the other way, you will see fewer problems, especially if you look at your own child's bright and happy eyes.<<<<<

I saw that article pop up a few times on my Facebook feed, and did choose to look away each time.  I read it this time though.  Several things popped into my mind as I read along.  Foremost was that I have moved much more steadily in the direction of bright, happy unschooling by *not* reading these kinds of articles or engaging (as much as possible) in negative conversations surrounding the use of media (or food or bedtimes or what Ethan should or should not be learning) with family or friends.  

Keeping my focus on my son has encouraged most of those old fears to fall to the wayside because I have seen for myself the benefits of living with and embracing all kinds of media in our home and in our lives.  The comments regarding media causing ADHD are interesting to me.  I have observed that playing video games is an activity that my son can wholeheartedly focus his attention on.  That isn't to say there aren't other activities or interests that attract a meaningful level of concentration, but Ethan is a very active boy.  Always has been.  

When we watch movies, for example, he hops around excitedly.  When we read together, he moves his body quite a bit.  It's not uncommon for him to do summersaults across the bed as I or my husband read aloud to Ethan.  He'll leave a movie part way through, wanting to move on to something else - perhaps an idea sparked by what he saw.  He'll stop a story midway through, wanting to finish it another day, even at it's most suspenseful part.  All fine, of course, but with games he will build and explore and study as many aspects of that game as he can find examples of or reveal by investigation for intensely concentrated periods of time.  

From playing with and observing my son, it has not been my experience that games have caused him to lose attention or become hyperactive.  Quite the opposite actually.  And, in observing his relationship with learning anything over the past few years, I have come to the understanding that Ethan is full of ideas.  He's full of energy.  He's full of life.  He wants to be challenged.  When he finds things that meet the level of challenge he's looking for, he dives right in - deep.  When he comes across something that is a passing interest, he happily dances across it's surface, making personal mental notes, thrilled in the connections he makes, and happy to move on to meet and greet the next bright idea.  

But if Ethan were to have gone to school, both Doug and I are convinced his way of learning and living in the world wouldn't have been viewed in such a generous light.   No doubt with the classifications that we are sure would have been imposed on Ethan and the pressures that would have followed those labels, video games and media in general would cease to be the enriching, positive learning experience they are for him today.  They would become more akin to outlets - a haven, a relief, an act of rebellion, an escape.  

I have found that reading real-life stories about unschooled children who have lived without labels and without limits on media and other things, to be so much more valuable in guiding me than the articles written by experts claiming to have research that backs their adamant rejection of media usage for children.  The research results are always very dire - scary even - and very vague.  It is unclear to me why the children in these studies act aggressively, or are depressed, or can't focus, or can't follow rules.  There could be so many things going on in these children's lives that contribute to any one of their difficulties.  How much of their lives are examined outside of their media usage?  We never hear that side of the story.  

These children in the studies could be depressed because they're lonely, misunderstood, pressured to conform to arbitrary limits and regulations imposed both in the home and at school.  They could be angry because they are being bullied or not taken seriously.  They could lack focus because things aren't interesting enough for them.  Games might be a relief from all of the outside pressures they're feeling, but likely not as happy an experience as I see when my son plays his games with the loving support and encouragement of my husband or myself or his friends.  The conclusions of the researchers, in my humble opinion, are incomplete at best, and purposefully skewed to influence popular opinion in support of schools and conventional parenting in the worst case scenarios.      

<mmarr@...>

From the link that Sandra posted <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cris-rowan/10-reasons-why-handheld-devices-should-be-banned_b_4899218.html>
"The American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Society of Pediatrics state infants aged 0-2 years should not have any exposure to technology"

Did the definition of "technology" change while I wasn't looking? Or are we supposed to turn off the lights and furnace and find a field to sit in somewhere, one that wasn't planed with any mechanical equipment?

If a child is doing school at home online through the school district, do those limits still apply? Or it it only for kids who might be reading books that weren't assigned by a licensed teacher? (My kids and I had a recent discussion about whether or not reading Great Expectations on the Kindle Fire counted as screen time....) 

My nine-year-old's speech therapist (I think he's classified as a pediatric occupational therapist, same as the author of that article)  suggested last week using iPad apps to record and play back his speech. (Not planning to.)  In answer to my question about the Nintendo 3DS, the family eye doctor encouraged us to get one because there's research showing that playing those particular games would help my other son's eyes more than patching did.  (Haven't got one yet, but hoping to.) 

This study <http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2014/03/10/Parents-increasingly-distracted-by-mobile-devices-study-finds/2921394465041/>, which I heard about on the news last night is really annoying me right now. Researchers sat in a fast food restaurant and watched customers with children, counting how many times they used mobile devices. And based on that, they released statistics.  It doesn't say anything about the ages of the children they observed, but there's an ominous bit about young children and mother's facial cues. No one knows ANYTHING about what happened in these family the rest of the day, but they're in a study on the news, being depicted as neglectful. 

My boys and I will hopefully wind up at the park after running errands this afternoon, if the weather holds. I'll probably be reading a book on my Kindle while they jump from rock to rock or climb on tall things that make me nervous, unless they want me to take picture of their latest daring-do or push swings. And some parent who doesn't realize that I'm with them all day every day will probably think I'm an awful mom because I've got a screen in my hands. <<sigh>> (I've actually been meaning to ask -- if I'm just at the park because they need me for transportation and the kind of broad supervision that keeps them from throwing each other off of tall objects, am I doing my job as an unschooling mommy for the moment?) 

Michelle 

Pam Sorooshian

My sisters are both special ed teachers. One is in a public school program for 4 year olds with orthopedic disabilities and the other a young adult program at a college for 18 to 25 year olds with developmental disabilities.

Because their budgets are limited, they are late coming to the technology table and have just started getting ipads and other devices for their students. They are THRILLED with what they can do with them. 

-pam


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Deanne Rosselli <dddeanne@...> wrote:


"Pediatric occupational therapists work with children who can't even hold a spoon or can't walk."  

Sandra,  I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and the variety of abilities of the children I work with is much greater than that.   

I use the iPad in working with some of the children I see (currently ages 3-11), and I am not the only one.  The O.T. who wrote the article is an alarmist and fear mongering. It is sad and embarrassing that she has neglected her education and training, in which  the internal motivation and desires of the person receiving the therapy (child or adult) is critical.   The article also confuses correlation with causation in the research cited.

One of the things that drew me to unschooling when I first learned about it, is that is aligns with all that I had already learned about human development and psychology in my O.T. education.  Unschooling and O.T. are both focused on helping others to achieve their own goals, not imposing your own agenda on others.  Neither unschooling or O.T. are about limiting the lives of others.  They both are about facilitating access to and independence in the world at large.    

Deanne





Sandra Dodd

-=-"Pediatric occupational therapists work with children who can't even hold a spoon or can't walk."  

-=-Sandra,  I am a pediatric occupational therapist, and the variety of abilities of the children I work with is much greater than that. -=-

You're right, of course.  I was cranky with her characterizations and crazy "if-then" tangents about how everyone will surely die (it seemed) if governments do not DO SOMETHING!!!

But I don't think pediatric occupational therapists who write an article and advertise themselves that way are going to have known many children who were calmly allowed to play with iPads in their own way, and so that's the point I was more trying to make—that she wasn't looking at children playing with electronics.  The very thing she was talking about, she had not actually witnessed.

Sandra


<plaidpanties666@...>

>>But I don't think pediatric occupational therapists who write an article and advertise themselves that way are going to have known many children who were calmly allowed to play with iPads in their own way, and so that's the point I was more trying to make<<

She has a business "Zone'in Products" selling (according to her bio) educational products, workshops, training and consultation services to reverse the negative effects of technology on children. Her just-out book is entitled "Virtual Child - the Terrifying Truth about what Technology is doing to Children" (with a photo of a crying toddler). So it's likely the article is pure marketing. She has a vested interest in getting people to believe that "technology" is ruining their kids so that she can sell them a "cure". 

 Here's her bio:
http://www.zonein.ca/media/CrisRowanBio.pdf

Her website is the fist part of that - but I don't recommend going there. It's gross.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have found that reading real-life stories about unschooled children who have lived without labels and without limits on media and other things, to be so much more valuable in guiding me than the articles written by experts claiming to have research that backs their adamant rejection of media usage for children.  The research results are always very dire - scary even - and very vague.  It is unclear to me why the children in these studies act aggressively, or are depressed, or can't focus, or can't follow rules.  There could be so many things going on in these children's lives that contribute to any one of their difficulties.  How much of their lives are examined outside of their media usage?  We never hear that side of the story.  -=-

The reports will not even BEGIN to implicate school itself as a cause of aggression, depression or distraction.  The studies are in defense of school, and so villify things that make it more difficult for teachers to seem interesting by comparison.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- Neither unschooling or O.T. are about limiting the lives of others.  They both are about facilitating access to and independence in the world at large.    -=-

So she shouldn't have bragged about her credentials, if she was showing she didn't really understand the philosophy behind her profession. :-)


When she wrote that she was "a biologist," I assumed her first degree was biology and then she had studied further to become a therapist, because someone with just a BA in biology isn't prepared for a job (maybe in a lab, or maybe counting bugs or plants in a land survey or in a real biologist (PhD researcher)'s long term study of what bugs or plants or animals are coming or going.  I've had friends do that work—stake off a survey area, and camp there, and count something.

Someone who plagiarized hugely from unschoolers describes herself as "a sociologist."  I'm betting she has a bachelor's degree in sociology.   Someone with an education degree isn't "an educator" unless he's employeed as a teacher.  Someone with a BA is psychology is most absolutely DEFINITELY not "a psychologist."  :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-if I'm just at the park because they need me for transportation and the kind of broad supervision that keeps them from throwing each other off of tall objects, am I doing my job as an unschooling mommy for the moment-=-

You're asking the wrong people.
If they wanted you to play with them and you refused rudely, and they were sad, that would be between you and them.
If they wanted to play without you and you pressed yourself on them against their wishes, you wouldn't be a very nice person.

It's about the relationship between you and each child.  If they're interested in what they're doing and they feel safe and they have access to you and they're happy with that, then they probably think you're doing a pretty good job.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- Her just-out book is entitled "Virtual Child - the Terrifying Truth about what Technology is doing to Children" (with a photo of a crying toddler). -=-

So she lies in word and in imagery, huh?
Well it's good to know when someone is that way.

Sandra

chris ester

I just checked out the first few sentences of her book,,,

She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  

I find just that phrase disturbing, the level of control it connotes, as if you just pour in the pieces and parts and then in some number of years... voila! you have a person.  

A house is a sum of all of those carefully planned parts and you do need experts to put them together.  A child comes into this world already a whole individual.  Yes, they change and grow and hopefully they have loving, devoted parents to help on the journey, but they belong to themselves and with their family.  

Chris


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:39 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=- Her just-out book is entitled "Virtual Child - the Terrifying Truth about what Technology is doing to Children" (with a photo of a crying toddler). -=-


So she lies in word and in imagery, huh?
Well it's good to know when someone is that way.

Sandra


janine davies

The following words were posted as a status on FB by a friend who I have quietly un friended now, more business acquaintance actually, and works with dance for toddlers…..

>>>4 year age gap = a 6 yr old boy going through some sort of testosterone surge causing him to act stupidly, boyishly, and silly without thinking, answering back and giving attitude and a soon to be 2 yr old starting her tantrums like only a female can. Give me strength...….<<<

Im not posting it to be mean, and no worries about her seeing it either. For me it stands as an example of what most mainstream parented kids are going through on a day to day basis, the dis respect is immense, and actually what made me 'un friend' was the stream of negative, offensive, and deeply upsetting comments that followed and not one in support or recognition of the child and all so very dis respectful. (the mother had been at a dance convention all weekend by the way, after having worked full time in the week...)

They are limited, and bullied, shamed and isolated as punishment and I do truly get that this is what is the cause of a lot of  'behaviour' issues, and as we know what a difference it is for child who is respected and not limited, and for the whole family. 

I Had a day of it yesterday with this FB status, and that article on 'restricting hand held devices'!!, and I popped to a neighbour for some milk in the afternoon and she proudly told me that she has restricted her sons viewing of 'Stampy' because he is now more addicted to watching that than actually playing mine craft (also restricted)?!?!  and then proceeded to act out, in a way I presume she thought was funny, him walking round the house holding an iPad and watching it whilst getting dressed for school, and all this in front of him  (he is 9 and was visibly mortified), and was off school sick!  I quickly asked him what he was watching on the TV that was on, to change the subject, and it was an abysmal CBBC programme that is a kids version of auditioning for GLEE (its awful) and the irony was completely lost on my friend….all the joy and learning, and happy bright eyes he would have had watching 'Stampy'! which would have flooded him with well being and speeded up his recovery.

But she is just doing what most do, but its a clear picture to me of the harboured aggression and resentment he must be carrying around, (and he hates school). I felt a bit down at the end of yesterday to be honest, but thankfully picked up my computer and was filled with joy and inspiration again from reading all these inspiring, sensible thoughts, ideas and writings - and thank goodness for this place, and long may it be here talking sense and keeping us afloat in this sea of nonsense. 

Janine






To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:28:23 +1000
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Reasons not to limit young children

 
-=-I have found that reading real-life stories about unschooled children who have lived without labels and without limits on media and other things, to be so much more valuable in guiding me than the articles written by experts claiming to have research that backs their adamant rejection of media usage for children.  The research results are always very dire - scary even - and very vague.  It is unclear to me why the children in these studies act aggressively, or are depressed, or can't focus, or can't follow rules.  There could be so many things going on in these children's lives that contribute to any one of their difficulties.  How much of their lives are examined outside of their media usage?  We never hear that side of the story.  -=-

The reports will not even BEGIN to implicate school itself as a cause of aggression, depression or distraction.  The studies are in defense of school, and so villify things that make it more difficult for teachers to seem interesting by comparison.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I just checked out the first few sentences of her book,,,

-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  

-=-I find just that phrase disturbing, the level of control it connotes,  -=-

I have used the example sometimes that a child is like a tree.  A seed grows into the only sort of tree it can be.  A child is who he will be.

I have said "I grew a tree."  But really, the tree grew.  I might have induced germination with some water and dirt.  I probably kept it where animals weren't eating it.  I can put the seedling in a bigger pot, and the young tree in a good place in the ground.  I have done that.  I have tall trees I grew from seed.  

I have three children I "grew from seed" too.

I didn't build trees out of wood.  I didn't build roots and then build the trunk and branches and leaves.  The trees did that all by themselves.

-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  -=-

Does she have children?

Sandra

<millionairemama@...>

== Does she have children? == This is from her bio: "Cris is a proud mom of Canadian Navy Submariner Officer Matt, and resides in Sechelt, British Columbia on the Sunshine Coast with her equestrian daughter Katie, two dogs, three cats, a bird and a horse. Cris loves the outdoors and spends a great deal of time with her family exploring the natural beauty of her community." Nina

chris ester

I wondered if she has children as well.  I haven't attempted to learn more about her and her life.  There was a good article rebutting her original article though.  Called 

10 Reasons Why We Need Research Literacy, Not Scare Columns by David Kleeman



I found it refreshing to read an article that was positive on technology and not sensational.  
Chris


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-I just checked out the first few sentences of her book,,,


-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  

-=-I find just that phrase disturbing, the level of control it connotes,  -=-

I have used the example sometimes that a child is like a tree.  A seed grows into the only sort of tree it can be.  A child is who he will be.

I have said "I grew a tree."  But really, the tree grew.  I might have induced germination with some water and dirt.  I probably kept it where animals weren't eating it.  I can put the seedling in a bigger pot, and the young tree in a good place in the ground.  I have done that.  I have tall trees I grew from seed.  

I have three children I "grew from seed" too.

I didn't build trees out of wood.  I didn't build roots and then build the trunk and branches and leaves.  The trees did that all by themselves.

-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  -=-

Does she have children?

Sandra


chris ester

Sorry about the font!  I tried to make it "normal". 
chris


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 5:03 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
I wondered if she has children as well.  I haven't attempted to learn more about her and her life.  There was a good article rebutting her original article though.  Called 

10 Reasons Why We Need Research Literacy, Not Scare Columns by David Kleeman



I found it refreshing to read an article that was positive on technology and not sensational.  
Chris


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-I just checked out the first few sentences of her book,,,


-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  

-=-I find just that phrase disturbing, the level of control it connotes,  -=-

I have used the example sometimes that a child is like a tree.  A seed grows into the only sort of tree it can be.  A child is who he will be.

I have said "I grew a tree."  But really, the tree grew.  I might have induced germination with some water and dirt.  I probably kept it where animals weren't eating it.  I can put the seedling in a bigger pot, and the young tree in a good place in the ground.  I have done that.  I have tall trees I grew from seed.  

I have three children I "grew from seed" too.

I didn't build trees out of wood.  I didn't build roots and then build the trunk and branches and leaves.  The trees did that all by themselves.

-=-She uses the phrase, "Growing a child is like building a house...".  -=-

Does she have children?

Sandra



Sandra Dodd

-=- a 6 yr old boy going through some sort of testosterone surge-=-

I don't think six year old boys have testosterone surges.

It's a shame when people blame anything and everything outside of themselves for children's reactions to being belittled or limited.

Sandra

chris ester

Just this week, my daughter and I went to a "doc in a box" for ear infections.  My daughter (15) was asked what school she went to and so we said that she was homeschooled.  The physician's assistant proceeds to say, "My hat's off to you, I don't know how you have the patience..." with a wry grin.  

I was not feeling particularly magnanimous, and said, " It really isn't that hard, we have a great time.  And I always say, if you don't like your kids, what are you doing wrong?!"  

My daughter later said that she always loves to watch the momentary uncomfortable silence coupled with the look of realization that I have brought up a good point when I say something like this.  I really do try to be more diplomatic than this usually...
chris 


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:24 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=- a 6 yr old boy going through some sort of testosterone surge-=-


I don't think six year old boys have testosterone surges.

It's a shame when people blame anything and everything outside of themselves for children's reactions to being belittled or limited.

Sandra