Sandra Dodd

I hope no one reading in this group has set their internet or e-mail to receive NOTHING except Always Learning. Please don't. Your relatives might be trying to contact you.

If anyone was court-ordered to join this list, please send me a copy of the judge's writ, because I will write and ask them NOT to do that anymore.

Today someone wasted Joyce's time (I shouldn't say that, because Joyce might be having fun) arguing with her about a returned post. Joyce is VERY KIND to help moderate this discussion. She doesn't have to. She doesn't have to help unschoolers at all, but she does, because she is interested in the topic and in how people learn about it and understand it.

"I seek to find like-minded folks and am unable to receive that from the Always Learning group while it is so heavily moderated and controlled," the person wrote to Joyce.

Please. If the only place in the world someone is looking for like-minded people is here, branch out!

-=-obviously I have no idea how many other comments/responses are moderated and withheld from the group.-=-

Very few posts are returned. If we returned lots more, that would be okay, but we don't.

This side accusation that we are keeping someone from making an informed decision about boogers has to do with the idea of food allergies.

If there is anyone here who is not aware that there are food allergies in the world and that anyone might have one, please google "food allergy" and "gluten sensitivity" and "lactose intolerance." There is much more about that in the world than there is about unschooling. Let that live where it lives, and let's just discuss unschooling here.

If there is anyone here who feels that she/he cannot make an informed decision without us bringing information about every other method of homeschooling or private schooling or public schooling, I think that's unreasonable to expect.

If someone asks for a movie recommendation, we aren't obligated to name every movie that would be BAD for unschoolers, nor ever movie that is great. Naming some movies is plenty. IMDB names most of the others.

Don't expect this discussion to be more than it is, or other than it has been described AT LENGTH, for years, to be.

And please stop harrassing moderators.

If anyone feels like reading the lengthy advice about allergies that Joyce declined to approve, and the complaints about this discussion that followed from that, here:

http://sandradodd.com/informedDecision

I formatted it with working links so that anyone who really does wish the list had long allergy recommendations regarding any question—not just of boogers, but of sleep, attention span and courtesy—can read that page over when the thought arises that maybe all this unschooling discussion is a waste of time, and we should all just control our children's diets instead.

Yes, I'm kind of cranky that someone will go to so much work to disrupt, and will participate in a discussion so important to others without even bothering to know whose discussion it is.

The person wrote to Joyce: "That you chose to allow Sandra's messages against food allergy/medical issues but not other messages regarding the same, is straight up bias on your part & totally allowed as you are the moderator & can do what you chose."

Joyce is one of several moderators. I'm a moderator, too. Joyce didn't "choose to allow" my messages. I'm the list owner. My posts have never been moderated. Most members' posts aren't moderated.

I seriously doubt there has ever been a single person who made any important life decision based solely on what she read on Always Learning. Nor based on one single book, or article, or one single person's advice. It wouldn't make sense.

Please make informed decisions. Just don't expect all the information in the world to come from a single source.

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Why are dry boogers or any boogers a problem or something to be fixed by diet.
The issue was picking the nose.

Here are some facts about boogers:

http://www.boogiewipes.com/booger-facts/


Fun Fact #1: Your nose is the ultimate lean, green, booger producing machine. Your nose makes mucus to prevent dust and pollen from traveling to your lungs. Some mucus is swallowed (about a quart a day) and some stays nestled in your nose. When you breathe dry air into your nose, that mucus is dried and becomes a booger.

and much more in that link.
If you take the time to just google and read one may not have jumped to the conclusion that  boogers are allergy and a diet is needed.

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Lisa Celedon

<<please stop harassing moderators>>

I've had people from this list contact me privately to give their responses to questions I've asked.  I send a polite, short statement back that says I don't read or respond to emails about the discussion outside of the discussion.  One person got very rude and angry and seemed to feel personally rejected.  The person went on and on in long, successive emails about how narrow-minded, limited, and controlling the discussion is, and how she disagrees with how it's run and and and, I didn't read much more than a sentence or two from each email.  It was pointless negativity and rudeness and a complete waste of my time (hers too).  I *did* point out that had she been responding on the list, it probably would have been harder to be rude.    

So, don't harass other people on the list either!

The reason I value and participate in this discussion is because I trust the moderators to keep in on topic, peaceful, and helpful.  I trust the motivation for what they do is purely genuine interest in helping people do better by their children, and helping parents move toward unschooling their children joyfully and well. I participate *because* it is a carefully tended discussion.  It thrives, so I thrive.  I help my children thrive. 

I don't want to waste the very little time I have to focus on email reading unchecked ideas and opinions that might lead me away from where I want to go, or reading messages from people whose motivations (conscious or unconscious) I'm not sure about.  If I wanted information about allergies, or ANYTHING, I know where to find some quickly (GOOGLE).  I expect reading on this list will supply me with good thoughts and useful ideas about UNSCHOOLING that will help my day, and help me grow as a parent.  

<<I hope no one reading in this group has set their internet or e-mail to receive NOTHING except Always Learning>>  
This actually made me laugh, because though emails from this list aren't the only ones I get, there are multiple days in a week when they're the only ones I read - I make an informed decision on a daily basis to read them (and often only them) because they're usually the most pertinent, thought-provoking, and beneficial emails I get.

Know your audience.  That is basic writing advice, in any context.


 Lisa C



<sukaynalabboun@...>

Sandra, I felt so angered when I first posted almost two years ago. I had read so much, including the intro read before you post material. I wanted to leave in a huff, but thankfully maturity and calm prevailed and i decided to wait and see if anything you or Joyce had written made any sense or helped me along on my journey. I also could not find anything, anywhere at all, on the internet that even came close to the quality or scope of your websites and dicussions. My family and I are so glad we stuck around, lurking, trying stuff out, tweaking things along the way. I am so grateful for the clarity and experience, the critical and logical methods used to pick apart issues, that the complaints seem relatively silly. People obviously don't want to slow down and take the time to do the hard work to read a little, try a little wait a while and watch. I honestly hope this rash of frustration does not deter you (plural, you and the wonderful moderators) from continuing, as undoubtedly, there are many other lurkers like myself benefitting daily from the discussion. I am aware this may read as support or a pat on the back; it is intended as gratitude. Gratitude for your kindness, generosity and patience in helping others get it. Thank you!


---In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote:


janine davies

>>The reason I value and participate in this discussion is because I trust the moderators to keep in on topic, peaceful, and helpful.  I trust the motivation for what they do is purely genuine interest in helping people do better by their children, and helping parents move toward unschooling their children joyfully and well. I participate *because* it is a carefully tended discussion.  It thrives, so I thrive.  I help my children thrive. <<

I totally feel the same about this list, and this is very well said. I have had my words torn up on here and just yesterday pointed out that I was over writing and off topic and I am extremely grateful, but more than that it was helpful and informative, and both were areas that I needed to break through and focus on, and change my thinking on, and take real action to change to be a better unschooler - one was about the use of labels which I am totally clear on now thanks to it being pointed out loud and clear that I was using a label! Through this tear up, and reading else where, I have changed my thinking for the better on this for good, and I am grateful for the  help and information from this thread that helped with that.

My over writing yesterday comes from a life long tendency to over talk/over write and especially when overexcited or overanxious (and usually muddled and very unclear) and I already knew from reading on here and sandras links on this that it is hampering my unschooling, and I had already started to focus on really shifting it for the better - through my buddhist practise, and reading on it from an unschooling perspective, and yesterday was a big kick up the butt to get on with it and REALLY focus on it deeply, so i am grateful again. 

<<I hope no one reading in this group has set their internet or e-mail to receive NOTHING except Always Learning>>  

This made me smile also, I do look forward every morning to reading this list, and I too am so grateful that it is so well tended. Again on this list it was pointed out to me that unschooling in one key to helping my family live,love, and learn together better, I have another very useful key too, and I have reached my net far and wide on this journey - but I do have this list high up there because it is so informative and helpful and if it holds the mirror up GOOD, and thats a good thing for me, and I will always be grateful for its existence in helping my family thrive and improve our unschooling everyday.

Beautifully and clearly written Lisa, thank you for writing on here.
Janine  






To: [email protected]
From: lisajceledon@...
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 00:56:06 -0800
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: "Informed Decision"

 
<<please stop harassing moderators>>

I've had people from this list contact me privately to give their responses to questions I've asked.  I send a polite, short statement back that says I don't read or respond to emails about the discussion outside of the discussion.  One person got very rude and angry and seemed to feel personally rejected.  The person went on and on in long, successive emails about how narrow-minded, limited, and controlling the discussion is, and how she disagrees with how it's run and and and, I didn't read much more than a sentence or two from each email.  It was pointless negativity and rudeness and a complete waste of my time (hers too).  I *did* point out that had she been responding on the list, it probably would have been harder to be rude.    

So, don't harass other people on the list either!

The reason I value and participate in this discussion is because I trust the moderators to keep in on topic, peaceful, and helpful.  I trust the motivation for what they do is purely genuine interest in helping people do better by their children, and helping parents move toward unschooling their children joyfully and well. I participate *because* it is a carefully tended discussion.  It thrives, so I thrive.  I help my children thrive. 

I don't want to waste the very little time I have to focus on email reading unchecked ideas and opinions that might lead me away from where I want to go, or reading messages from people whose motivations (conscious or unconscious) I'm not sure about.  If I wanted information about allergies, or ANYTHING, I know where to find some quickly (GOOGLE).  I expect reading on this list will supply me with good thoughts and useful ideas about UNSCHOOLING that will help my day, and help me grow as a parent.  

<<I hope no one reading in this group has set their internet or e-mail to receive NOTHING except Always Learning>>  
This actually made me laugh, because though emails from this list aren't the only ones I get, there are multiple days in a week when they're the only ones I read - I make an informed decision on a daily basis to read them (and often only them) because they're usually the most pertinent, thought-provoking, and beneficial emails I get.

Know your audience.  That is basic writing advice, in any context.


 Lisa C




Sandra Dodd

-=- I am aware this may read as support or a pat on the back-=-

I don't mind people being supportive of the existence of the discussion!  :-)

The "support" we want to avoid is the soothing, cooing, "ooh, you're an AWEsome mom" responses that don't really help anything (espcially when they're used to make a mom feel better for being a half-assed mom, by her own admission, right there on the screen).  

-=-I honestly hope this rash of frustration does not deter you (plural, you and the wonderful moderators) from continuing, as undoubtedly, there are many other lurkers like myself benefitting daily from the discussion.-=-

We remember the lurkers.
These spates of "YOU SUCK" come around two or three times a year, and always have.  What the complainers don't know is that the more strident they get, the more likely someone is to write something like -=- I also could not find anything, anywhere at all, on the internet that even came close to the quality or scope of your websites and dicussions. My family and I are so glad we stuck around, lurking, trying stuff out, tweaking things along the way. I am so grateful for the clarity and experience, the critical and logical methods used to pick apart issues, that the complaints seem relatively silly.-=-  (as you did :-)  )

Then things go back to calmer and more still.  And after a few months there will be another sqawking dust-up, and we will provide links, again, to the pages on our intentions and purpose, and someone will assure us that we are RUINING unschooling for EVERYBODY and that we deeply and horribly suck.

And while they're doing that, I don't know what their children are doing, but I've always known what cool stuff MINE were up to. :-)   And rabid attacks on what I've been doing and the way I've been doing it can't change the way my children grew up.  They're 22, 25, 27 now.  I've seen all of them quite recently, though Keith and I have the  house to ourselves this season.  Every one of them is energetic and upbeat and living real life.

Thank you for the support.  Thanks for the expression of gratitude.  Mostly, thanks for reminding us that real good is coming of all this!

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY



<<<<My over writing yesterday comes from a life long tendency to over talk/over write and especially when overexcited or overanxious (and usually muddled and very unclear) and I already knew from reading on here and sandras links on this that it is hampering my unschooling,>>>>>>

YES!  For me too. I am still working on it, specially the talking.
It has totally changed me. Because of reading and writing here a bit I started  to really stop and think and pick the words and clarify my ideas and the image I am mentally making by choosing said words to use. It has spilled all over my life and how I think, write, talk and act and see things.
I am thankful my words where picked apart and my ideas were challenged.
Paying attention and choosing the words  when I write  has absolutely made me stop and think with more clarity.
When you stop and think you are being mindful and you can then have  a clear picture and able to make better choices.
I am so grateful for it.

Now I can see how I did say and wrote without really taking a breath and thinking.  I was repeating phrases and expressions I heard without thought. I was thoughtless.
I was reacting and not making choices.

It took me almost half a century ( I just turned 48) to learn that and I do consider myself a smart person with a Law Degree and having worked in so many different things in my life!
What I have learned here has been life changing. Yes I have learned about unschooling and mindful parenting and even being a better partner to both my kids and husband.
I am super thankful for that and I do not think I would have been where I am  if I had not learned  how to be mindful and thoughtful about the words I choose, my thoughts and  my actions and consequently reactions and I thank that to this list and how it is run and moderated.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

Joyce Fetteroll

Most members' posts aren't moderated.

Actually most members are on moderation (if that's what you mean.) At least 80% I'd say. Yahoo makes it a bit of a pain to change a member from moderated to unmoderated. So unless someone's being "annoying" prolific with great posts, it's much easier to just keep approving posts rather than drill down through several pages to change someone's status.

As Sandra said, there are few posts rejected. Most are for formatting -- a large block of text that most members wouldn't read --, leaving multiple posts appended and posts that are nothing more than thank you.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

=-Most members' posts aren't moderated.
-=-Actually most members are on moderation (if that's what you mean.) At least 80% I'd say. -=-

Most of those who write regularly aren't on moderation.

People who've never written will be forever, because we don't see them.
People who write well and we trust them are taken off moderation (which was easier to do before yahoo "new-improved" itself).

Sandra


<lisajceledon@...>

<<I participate *because* it is a carefully tended discussion.>>

And by carefully tended, I don't just mean that people are on moderated status, or not.  I mean that the ideas are carefully tended too.

<anna.black@...>

Since we're doing a bit of thanking, I'm going to add mine.  It's because of this list that my daughters are sitting upstairs watching their second consecutive hour of Magic Schoolbus (we just got Netflix), while my oldest feeds her Baby Alive and flips through our birthday cake book to prepare for her 7th birthday on the weekend.  My youngest is brushing a doll's hair and the two girls together are exclaiming over a package of tiny ballerina figures that just came in the mail (cake decorators).  I'm making a money platter while we wait for a new homeschooled friend to visit for a play.  

Already our lives feel so much richer and more peaceful, and we've only been doing this for a month.  The help and information I received from my post earlier this week was so useful, and we have weathered that particular storm for now.  Without this list I would have been impatient and much less calm, or sympathetic.  

So thank you again for keeping things focused and directed.  I don't think it's an understatement to say Always Learning has really changed our whole lives.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Without this list I would have been impatient and much less calm, or sympathetic.  
-=-

I hope when you look back here from next year you'll see that you've moved a long way toward even more peace, and your story will help others who are new and can't imagine they can move foward.  

Thanks for the kind words.

Sandra

<anna.black@...>

It gave me a little thrill of excitement to think that this time next year things might be even better.  Because we are having such a lovely time already, and I can feel my connection to both my girls, but especially my eldest, deepening by the day.  

I would have always said our relationship was a close, trusting one, but I can see looking back even this short time, it was more detached than I realised.  

Sandra Dodd

-=-The person went on and on in long, successive emails about how narrow-minded, limited, and controlling the discussion is, -=-

If anyone is bothered on the side by people from this group, you can let me know and I'll remove the offending person from the group.

I consider it to be like following someone home from a public meeting.  If someone chooses to go to a public place where the lights are on, it's not permission for anyone to follow them home in the dark.

Sandra


<kgharriman1@...>

I have only been on this list for two three months or so. Initially I had a post rejected. Actually I had a couple of posts rejected. At first I was taken aback. I decided to read and not post for a while. I read responses to other posts and over a short time saw that the responses to my posts were not personal and started to understand how this list works and appreciate it for just that. How it works and why it works. I also feel that its a list that doesn't well tolerate naysayers but rather people with a serious intention to understand unschooling in its deepest sense and how it can work in their lives and then to be willing to look at the mirror and sometimes the painful realities presented and to work on getting better and being better. I like that its supportive nature is not a "group hug" sort of support as one finds on many other online forums. Its kind of support is more empowering in the long run.
thanks for being different, challenging and empowering :)

Joyce Fetteroll

I just deleted several posts that weren't about unschooling. They were about celiac disease. If anyone wants to read them I put them in the files section of Always Learning. I'll delete them in a couple of days.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/AlwaysLearning/files

(If you click on TempCeliacFile it will automatically download. Sorry, I don't know how to make it for viewing rather than downloading. There may not be a way.)

Yahoo's being a temporary twit and not letting me write to the poster to let her know.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

There seems to be some confusion about what effect Sandra expected her "The great gluten panic" post to have on the list.

It seems some on this list believe there are members here who will unquestioningly believe anything Sandra posts. Because they don't get the opportunity to hijack the list into a discussion of how scary non-organic foods are or whatever it seems they believe that Sandra also believes she has such powers and is trying to control what people are allowed to read.

What an incredibly unflattering view of the members' intelligence here!

And as Sandra posted she doesn't believe she has the power to turn off access to the rest of the internet for everyone! ;-)

Not only that but the idea that long time posters *want* to write to people willing to read unquestioningly means that person has a warped view of the purpose of this list.

What Sandra posted was meant to *add* to the overwhelming number of messages currently in society about what we need to fear.

Don't read anything here in order to think like Sandra does. Read to understand how to dig into ideas to question what you read.

One line from the posts I deleted stated the poster disagreed with the bit about gluten free being a “fad”.

I suspect that having a child with celiac's disease and now seeing all the wonderful products more readily available can feel like finally being recognized and taken seriously. Unfortunately it just isn't true. The massive influx of gluten free products into even regular grocery stores isn't driven by the relatively small celiac population. It's being driven by a big wave of belief in the general population that avoiding gluten and/or wheat will fix what's "wrong" with them. Some of the people joyfully touting how much better they feel after eliminating gluten or wheat probably *do* have some intolerance. It's great they found a cause. Some of the people are experiencing a placebo effect. Many more are giving it a try to see if they experience the supposedly wonderful benefits. In a few short years most everyone will have moved onto the next big "fix". And unfortunately the gluten free products probably won't be as widely available for the people who do need them.

Here's what Sandra originally prefaced her post with. It says "think", not "think like me."
======
It's about diet (and belief and fear and control and magical thinking).


Someone kindly sent me links to these articles by Stan Cox, with information on scientific studies on wheat's effects and on the origins of the spreading belief that wheat is of the devil and that children will be virtuous and brighter and live longer if they have panicky parents controlling them (that part is my own wording). It's a fad, and one of several that have come along since I've been helping unschoolers. People can be mad at me about saying so if they want to, but it might be worth reading these articles and following some of the trails he points to. Be mad at him, too, if you want to ignore those scientific studies.
======

Joyce

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

In another totally unrelated discussion someone send me a link to a book about "how everything we know has an expiration date"
 The book is called  The Half Live of Facts. I thought it could be interesting and send it to Sandra last night.
She is leaving to Australia and does not have time for it and I sent her an email saying something like I somewhat disagreed that all facts have  doomed.
She answered and here is some of it:

"
Hey, the Pope is changing church "facts" (as many popes have).

The "fact" that men can't marry men is changing.

Physics classes taught that if you fire a bullet straight up, it's going as fast when it hits the earth as when it left the gun, but that has been disproven (by a TV show. :-).

It sounds right to me.

I think EVERY "dental fact" we repeat these days will be disproven.

AIDS was a deadly disease for a while—no survivors.  "

So I was thinking that we really do not know for sure if what is a hard fact today will change.  Maybe  there are some facts like Oxygen is an element made of so many electrons and such. But who knows if in the future they will have better technology and there is something we do not see yet that is part of it.
The earth orbits around the sun. That seems to be a fact for me but even this can change. Earth gets hit and goes out of orbit? Who knows.

It is interesting to think of all these.

But most things in think as facts today will change. Gluten may become a life saving and not this evil food it is today.
Butter used to be bad, margarine was good. Now it is the other way around! Eggs were bad for you! Now they are a perfect food!

Now how does this relate to unschooling?
 Schools say children need to be taught to read. We know that is not a fact!
Kids need to be punished or consequences created so they can learn to be good human beings.
Well we know they can grow to be wonderful people without punishments and parent created consequences.
If a child does not read by a certain age they are learning disable and will have a very hard time reading.
Unschoolers have seen kids learn to read at all ages and they all read fine with no difference to kids that learned at the "correct" age.
If a child cannot pay attention to the classes and concentrate in their lessons and is wiggly they have ADD or ADHD. Kids are labelled everyday.
Those kids are brought home to unschool and they can concentrated and do well in what they are interested! Be play ball or video games , build Legos, watch Barbie movies!



So here is the link to the book:
http://www.arbesman.net/the-half-life-of-facts/

""Facts change all the time. Smoking has gone from doctor-recommended to deadly. We used to think the Earth was the center of the universe and that Pluto was a planet. For decades, we were convinced that the Brontosaurus was a real dinosaur. In short, what we know about the world is constantly changing.
But it turns out there’s an order to the state of knowledge, an explanation for how we know what we know. Samuel Arbesman is an expert in the field of scientometrics—literally the science of science. Knowledge in most fields evolves systematically and predictably, and this evolution unfolds in a fascinating way that can have a powerful impact on our lives.
The Half-Life of Facts is a riveting journey into the counterintuitive fabric of knowledge. It can help us find new ways to measure the world while accepting the limits of how much we can know with certainty.""


Has anyone read this book?

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 

Tam Palmer

===The earth orbits around the sun. That seems to be a fact for me but even this can change===

Even that is a 'fact' that isn't quite right :) Although the earth does go round the sun, obviously, what it's actually orbiting is the barycentre (the centre of mass), due to all the gravities of the other bodies in the solar system.


Tam

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

See one more fact that is not really a fact :)

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

From: Tam Palmer <wifejuliefish@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "Informed Decision"- The Half Life of Facts

 
===The earth orbits around the sun. That seems to be a fact for me but even this can change===

Even that is a 'fact' that isn't quite right :) Although the earth does go round the sun, obviously, what it's actually orbiting is the barycentre (the centre of mass), due to all the gravities of the other bodies in the solar system.

http://zidbits.com/2011/09/the-earth-doesnt-actually-orbit-the-sun/

Tam



Mette G.

Thanks for this link. Facts are effectively only facts in so far as we are convinced about the thruth of that fact too.

Today my 6yo asked me "what happens if you don't believe in God?" I am a Christian, and I am telling my children about Jesus and how *I* believe that he says such and such or how *I* feel that it impacts our everyday life as humans. Some years ago - I might (gasp) have been able to answer her question with something like "well, then you don't go to heaven" - because to many Christians, that is a fact. Now I'm not so sure anymore - and I answered her "I don't know".

My journey in unschooling has been tremendously helpful in realizing that many "facts" really above all are convictions we live by, and that lots of them - even widely held and accepted (proved?!) ones - are subject to change. To remember that helps you lots in accepting other peoples choices.

Luna

>>>>>
So here is the link to the book:
http://www.arbesman.net/the-half-life-of-facts/


On Wednesday, February 19, 2014 9:04 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
 
See one more fact that is not really a fact :)

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

From: Tam Palmer <wifejuliefish@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] "Informed Decision"- The Half Life of Facts

 
===The earth orbits around the sun. That seems to be a fact for me but even this can change===

Even that is a 'fact' that isn't quite right :) Although the earth does go round the sun, obviously, what it's actually orbiting is the barycentre (the centre of mass), due to all the gravities of the other bodies in the solar system.

http://zidbits.com/2011/09/the-earth-doesnt-actually-orbit-the-sun/

Tam





<lisajceledon@...>

<<It's being driven by a big wave of belief in the general population that avoiding gluten and/or wheat will fix what's "wrong" with them. Some of the people joyfully touting how much better they feel after eliminating gluten or wheat probably *do* have some intolerance. It's great they found a cause. Some of the people are experiencing a placebo effect. >>

I stopped eating wheat a year and a half ago.  At first, I felt a lot of benefits, primarily with my digestion.  One benefit was feeling like I had more energy. Over time, those benefits faded away and my digestive troubles started again, though to a lesser degree.
A few months ago I began experimenting with including wheat in my diet, in small amounts.  I've found that my digestive troubles correlate a lot more with stress in my life than they do with whether I eat wheat or not.  I also still feel like I have AMPLE energy, though I'm eating wheat.  But I also am a lot less worn down by stress and negativity in my life.
I think my initial "success" was the feeling that I had found something to help me, and it gave me positive, empowering feelings.  It gave me a sense of control that made me feel better, and so my digestion improved.  
It's still possible that I have some digestive issues with wheat, I haven't dismissed that completely.
I will say, however, that trying to avoid wheat became a source of stress for me.  It caused more stress and anxiety than actually eating wheat has caused me any kind of discomfort.  I am enjoying SO much the freedom to relax and enjoy a donut, or a plate of spagetti, or an oreo (or three).  Focusing on gratitude for the availability of so many choices, rather than my fear, helped a lot.  
I think, if eating wheat causes someone physical discomfort, and eliminating it (for themselves, not everyone else around them) makes them feel better, and happier, and more joyful, then fine.   
I think that is possible, though the people I know who don't let their kids eat gluten (or refined sugar, or non grass-fed meat, or non-organic produce, or whatever it is that they've decided is awful for them), or who totally avoid it themselves, have a lot of anxiety in general around what they or their children are eating.  That's not good for unschooling (or your health, really).  I mean, I love grass-fed meat.  It tastes better.  I can't always afford it.  I love organic produce from my local farmer's market.  It tastes better, and I love the social aspect of getting to know the farmers.  I can't always afford it.  Appreciating what I have when I have it, and appreciating alternatives has made me MUCH happier than focusing on ONLY eating the things that I thought were best, and the stress of trying to shop for them on a small budget. 

And I sort of feel like, it's worse for a child's well-being to say "I think this is bad for you, but I'm going to let you eat it anyway" (even if not said directly), than it is just to say, "this is bad for you, you can't eat it." I don't think unschoolers should be saying either of those things about food, though.

Lisa C

chris ester

On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 5:06 PM, <lisajceledon@...> wrote:
 

>>>>And I sort of feel like, it's worse for a child's well-being to say "I think this is bad for you, but I'm going to let you eat it anyway" (even if not said directly), than it is just to say, "this is bad for you, you can't eat it." I don't think unschoolers should be saying either of those things about food, though.

Lisa C<<<<<<

My son had some issues (at first, pretty scary issues) with a certain food dye which started when he was very young.  We were tight on money, so it was easy to avoid this particular additive most of the time.  As he grew, we would check things for him.  Occasionally, he would get small amounts of the dye with usually unpleasant effects for him, but nothing horrible would happen.  

When he was somewhere around 10, he got a BIG dose of the dye and did NOT like the effects at all, but they wore off, mostly, in a few hours and he was fine.  No one panicked, no one wrung their hands about the possibilities, we just waited and watched in case the effects became something that would need direct action.  Thankfully, they never got to a that point.  My son took the opportunity to examine how the effects felt, how he felt about them and how long they lasted.  It really was a great learning experience.  

After this, I would say things like, "I want you to know (or be aware) that this food has x in it.", if e hadn't read the label himself.  Then he would make choices for himself.  Now that he is nearly 18, he is still good at paying attention to food labels because he cares what is in his food, and will ask that we buy or not buy certain things based on his label reading.  
chris

Sandra Dodd

-=-When he was somewhere around 10, he got a BIG dose of the dye and did NOT like the effects at all, but they wore off, mostly, in a few hours and he was fine. -=-

This is more a logic and common sense question—about how parents can help children learn about what seems true and what seems exaggerated.  And to help children decide when to risk eating a food that's iffy for that child.

Does anyone know of an everyday substance that has effects that can last more than a few hours, or a day or two?

I'm not thinking of poisons that can accumulate, like stychnine in an Agatha Christie novel.

Someone wrote that when a child has one crumb of gluten he's violent for three days.  And the tense used to say so suggested it had happened more than once more than twice—that it was always three days.  The post was removed, but because of my experience with digestion and the body's ability to recover itself, a three-day dietary effect seems extreme.  

Food poisoning can make someone VERY ill, but not for three days.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think my initial "success" was the feeling that I had found something to help me, and it gave me positive, empowering feelings.  It gave me a sense of control that made me feel better, and so my digestion improved. -=-

This is the way the placebo effect works.

-=-I am enjoying SO much the freedom to relax and enjoy a donut, or a plate of spagetti, or an oreo (or three).  Focusing on gratitude for the availability of so many choices, rather than my fear, helped a lot.  -=-

I like this.  Holly and I each know something that will give us the runs, so we save it for oncoming constipation. :-)  Hers is a certain soda; mine is instant hot chocolate.  Knowing the effect something has one someone can be very useful!  :-)

Sandra

Cá Maciel

The 3 days with bad humour and agressivity, may be related to constipation.
There is a certain food that causes me a variety of things namely, inflamation in tje skin, mouth, articular pain and very bad humour and agresivity. It also causes gut pain and constipation during 3 days. After the constipation is solved, good humour comes back. Now, if i eat that thing (sometimes i choose to eat it) i do it with many other that garantee that my gut will function in the same day or the day after. I falso use herbs por homeopathy to help. That helps a lot minimizing the "agressive mode" i was going on and it desapears in hours por does no even start. I i just eat the "thing" alone, i know i will have 72 hours in a very difficult States. After we discoverd, if i was in a terryble modo (falso because i was no able to reconize it was tried to make everyone miserable, no because of the food itself) my husband would make revise all my meals and snacks and check the labels on the kitchen to now if i acidently had some os "that" mover time we discovered the 72 hora needed to cleanse without help, what would make me cleanse faater and i understood that life is no hell, and no one is against me, i just hav�� to be quiet and wait until the depression and agressivity desapears and life is brigth again.
Dont know if this is helpfull por even on topic. Sorry if not.
C��tia Maciel.

On 22 de Fevereiro de 2014 21:43:11 WET, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-When he was somewhere around 10, he got a BIG dose of the dye and did NOT like the effects at all, but they wore off, mostly, in a few hours and he was fine. -=-


This is more a logic and common sense question���about how parents can help children learn about what seems true and what seems exaggerated.  And to help children decide when to risk eating a food that's iffy for that child.

Does anyone know of an everyday substance that has effects that can last more than a few hours, or a day or two?

I'm not thinking of poisons that can accumulate, like stychnine in an Agatha Christie novel.

Someone wrote that when a child has one crumb of gluten he's violent for three days.  And the tense used to say so suggested it had happened more than once more than twice���that it was always three days.  The post was removed, but because of my experience with digestion and the body's ability to recover itself, a three-day dietary effect seems extreme.  

Food poisoning can make someone VERY ill, but not for three days.

Sandra
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (24)

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Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Sandra Dodd

I've discussed Catia's situation (and I meant to send that post back for being non-specific and hard to read). It wasn't gluten, but she prefers not to discuss the particulars.

And I checked, to quote it for her, about the three-day claim I mentioned. I was wrong. The person didn't claim three days (which I thought was too long for the effects of "a crumb."

She said three weeks.

-=-My son was largely asymptomatic - his only symptom is that
he becomes irritable and violent for three weeks. He hurts
us all - especially his younger sister. She gets beaten or
jumped on or hit or otherwise hurt many, many times a day.
For three weeks. He becomes almost intolerable to live with.
After one single gluten crumb. -=-

With that verb tense (becomes, hurts, 'gets beaten...') it suggests that it has happened repeatedly.

Anyone whose child has been beaten many times a day is not present enough. That child is not being taken care of.

Anyone who believes that one single gluten crumb causes three weeks of symptoms and tries to protect a sibling by hiding gluten from the other child would do much better to really look into the suggestions made by unschoolers for many years about how to help children learn to get along, and to discover how foods affect them.

I don't believe gluetn will last three weeks in a person, and I don't believe that it (nor any other food or drug) will make a person violent for three weeks. Alcohol won't, no matter how much a violent drunk the person might be in the short term.

What will make a child angry is being controlled and told no. I don't think there's anyone who would see a child being told there's something wrong with him and NO he can't and NO he shouldn't, and not expect him to respond or react.

Three weeks?

Attempting to control a child's courtesy and morality by changing his diet is irresponsible. It's magic thinking.
And IF a person has a condition that causes them difficulty being courteous, the parent should work on courtesy. Work on ways for the child to calm himself or to isolate himself when he's a danger to others.

Sandra

<love2bike2live@...>

My oldest has celiac disease, and one of his symptoms is outbursts of anger and violence when he is exposed to gluten, including cross contamination (fries cooked in the same fryer as something with wheat, bread cut from the same knife as one that cut a piece of wheat bread, etc.). His doctor (who specializes in celiac disease and other gut problems) has told us that his reaction is one of the more strong visible ones she's ever seen (anyone with celiac disease has significant damage to the vili in their intestines after exposure, not everyone has obvious outward signs). Still, he has never had an emotional reaction last more than 3 days, and a skin rash that lasts more than a week. 

3 weeks seems like there is a lot more going on; I would look at how you responded when he had the exposure. Did you freak out, or become fearful? 

I can think back to many times that my fear around food had a huge impact on my son's emotional state. I wanted to write to share how this ongoing conversation has enabled me to relax and support my son in making choices while still doing what I feel is necessary to protect him and us. 

We were at a small festival at a community garden on Saturday, and one of the things they had a lot of was home baked bread. I brought lots of snacks and yummy treats that are healthy for my son, anticipating that not all of the food would be 100% gluten free. He found out that they had some gluten free bread options, and asked me if he could try it. I couldn't see the kitchen it was being prepared in, and they were busy. I guessed that cross contamination could be an issue. I took stock of our situation and noted that two of my friends (who don't have kids, and have known mine since birth) were there and if my son needed more support from one of us it would be available (usually I am the only adult out with my three kids, including an adventurous toddler), so I felt like it would be a good chance for him to try it if he really wanted to. I explained to him that I was not certain that there was no gluten on the bread they were offering, but that I would let him decide if it felt worth the possibility of a reaction. He decided it was.

 In the end, he did have a reaction, about 20 minutes after eating it, and ended up screaming and hitting me and my best friend (who is like his aunt, and his favorite person in the world) before I could help him. Once he was able to tell that he was safe and supported he sat in my lap and did some deep breathing with me. The day was rough, but we were able to talk about how he felt in his body and his heart, and if it did feel like a fair trade off for the bread (which he really didn't like at all in the end).

 We both learned a lot more that we would have if I had just said "no". (And his reaction passed in less than 24 hours, for those keeping track :) I appreciate gaining a deeper and deeper understanding of unschooling perspective and using it as one of the lenses I try to see my choices through. While the way I approach food with my kids would certainly not be considered radical unschooling, I am so grateful to be finding more ways to say yes and bringing more joy and ease into our lives. 

 Jamie

Victoria

Just wanted to correct you - it was 3 WEEKS, not three days after a crumb of gluten. And many with coeliac disease or non coeliac gluten intolerance will experience effects that last weeks. 

Vicky 

Please excuse typos - this was composed on an iPhone.




On 23 Feb 2014, at 8:43 am, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:

 

-=-When he was somewhere around 10, he got a BIG dose of the dye and did NOT like the effects at all, but they wore off, mostly, in a few hours and he was fine. -=-


This is more a logic and common sense question—about how parents can help children learn about what seems true and what seems exaggerated.  And to help children decide when to risk eating a food that's iffy for that child.

Does anyone know of an everyday substance that has effects that can last more than a few hours, or a day or two?

I'm not thinking of poisons that can accumulate, like stychnine in an Agatha Christie novel.

Someone wrote that when a child has one crumb of gluten he's violent for three days.  And the tense used to say so suggested it had happened more than once more than twice—that it was always three days.  The post was removed, but because of my experience with digestion and the body's ability to recover itself, a three-day dietary effect seems extreme.  

Food poisoning can make someone VERY ill, but not for three days.

Sandra

Victoria

He's off gluten now. I don't have to control him, he knows he has coeliac disease and is careful to avoid it. 

He no longer hurts his sister. And until you've experienced it I don't think you should make such unfavorable comments about our lack of care. 

Again, you are wrong about how long the effects last. I suggest you look into coeliac disease to inform yourself  properly before speaking about it again. 

Vicky 

Please excuse typos - this was composed on an iPhone.




On 24 Feb 2014, at 7:28 am, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:

 

I've discussed Catia's situation (and I meant to send that post back for being non-specific and hard to read). It wasn't gluten, but she prefers not to discuss the particulars.

And I checked, to quote it for her, about the three-day claim I mentioned. I was wrong. The person didn't claim three days (which I thought was too long for the effects of "a crumb."

She said three weeks.

-=-My son was largely asymptomatic - his only symptom is that
he becomes irritable and violent for three weeks. He hurts
us all - especially his younger sister. She gets beaten or
jumped on or hit or otherwise hurt many, many times a day.
For three weeks. He becomes almost intolerable to live with.
After one single gluten crumb. -=-

With that verb tense (becomes, hurts, 'gets beaten...') it suggests that it has happened repeatedly.

Anyone whose child has been beaten many times a day is not present enough. That child is not being taken care of.

Anyone who believes that one single gluten crumb causes three weeks of symptoms and tries to protect a sibling by hiding gluten from the other child would do much better to really look into the suggestions made by unschoolers for many years about how to help children learn to get along, and to discover how foods affect them.

I don't believe gluetn will last three weeks in a person, and I don't believe that it (nor any other food or drug) will make a person violent for three weeks. Alcohol won't, no matter how much a violent drunk the person might be in the short term.

What will make a child angry is being controlled and told no. I don't think there's anyone who would see a child being told there's something wrong with him and NO he can't and NO he shouldn't, and not expect him to respond or react.

Three weeks?

Attempting to control a child's courtesy and morality by changing his diet is irresponsible. It's magic thinking.
And IF a person has a condition that causes them difficulty being courteous, the parent should work on courtesy. Work on ways for the child to calm himself or to isolate himself when he's a danger to others.

Sandra