Sandra Dodd

-=- As an instrument of mental culture mathematics can pretend to but a single benefit. This study “if pursued in moderation, and if efficiently counteracted, may be beneficial in the correction of a certain vice and in the formation of its corresponding virtue. The vice is the habit of mental distraction; the virtue, the habit of continuous attention.”-=-

The quote is from a 1911 "Cyclopedia of Education."  But I have it from the blog of someone who followed me on twitter (where I rarely tweet) probably (as seems happens to me) in hopes that I would somehow funnel people to her blog.  I don't know.

But I did LOOK at her blog, and found that perhaps early arithmetic lessons could have caused my mental distraction.  According to the article, if I had chorea, it also probably caused that.  What IS chorea?  I didn't know, but being of vice-filled (vicious?) mental distractability,  I looked it up.

Twitching.  Involuntary physical convulsions.

Math study can also cause eye problems and sleep disturbance.  If a child is doing sums in his dreams, that is an obvious cause of injury to health.  

This is the one I read.  Part 2.  

This is the one I skimmed.  Part 1. By then I had learned enough about the dangers of mathematics and felt pretty smug that I hadn't pressed any math lessons on my children.  They grew up sleeping plenty, and not twitching.  Yay, me!


Don't read at that blog too long, please.  It could disturb your sleep.

I thought is was an amusing example of another way someone assured people that something fairly benign is HORRIBLY DANGEROUS.

I do agree that the amount of school time spent on math is excessive.  But it's about clocks and schedules.  Six subjects (or eight or nine), dividing the day evenly so that students can rotate through the classrooms of specialists, and extending those "crucial subject areas" backwards through elementary, back to kindergarten and into early childhood ed, so that babies can be on the fast track to the best universities.  

My kids all caught up with formal math in a semester or two of community college. Marty did up to calculus.  Kirby only took one class but makes use of math all the time in his work and play, and is good with money and loans and banking and all that practical life stuff.  

Holly took three classes, I think.  Maybe two.  Liked it; it wasn't difficult.  There were people in class with her bemoaning the difficulty, and they had been in school for twelve years or more, taking math classes.  

Sandra

chris ester




On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 11:29 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

>>>>>I do agree that the amount of school time spent on math is excessive.  But it's about clocks and schedules.  Six subjects (or eight or nine), dividing the day evenly so that students can rotate through the classrooms of specialists, and extending those "crucial subject areas" backwards through elementary, back to kindergarten and into early childhood ed, so that babies can be on the fast track to the best universities.  

Sandra<<<<<<<

I also always suspected that school systems vastly over complicated  math as a job security measure.  I have many friends who are very smart, but very bad at math and phobic of the subject altogether.  

The more I observe and read about learning, the more convinced I am that the education system as it stands is a jobs program.... 
chris

Sandra Dodd

-=-The more I observe and read about learning, the more convinced I am that the education system as it stands is a jobs program.... -=-

Oh my gosh.  
It IS.  And not just for teachers. 
If you extend it out from any given point, there are TONS of people whose jobs depend on the existence of...
school cafeterias
school libraries
school buses
school chemistry labs
school textbooks
school PE equipment
school lockers
school yearbooks
school marching band instruments
school music stands and special chairs and risers
school football fields
school certificates of merit, and diplomas
school report cards or the computers programs to create them
school math manipulatives
school desks
school tables and chairs for libraries, cafeterias, classrooms
school rings and jackets and t-shirts
school biology labs (skeletons, fetal pigs in jars, tons of charts and posters)
school sports uniforms and equipment and gyms and mats and locker rooms
school cheerleaders and uniforms and insurance for them building human pyramids

I'm too dismayed to think of more.  You guys take it.

Sandra

chris ester

Don't forget the "portal" programs that allows parents to look up their child's 'progress' in any class by getting instantaneous information about what grade they have gotten on which assignment.  

Apparently, "good" parents track their child's every grade with great obsession...
chris


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-The more I observe and read about learning, the more convinced I am that the education system as it stands is a jobs program.... -=-


Oh my gosh.  
It IS.  And not just for teachers. 
If you extend it out from any given point, there are TONS of people whose jobs depend on the existence of...
school cafeterias
school libraries
school buses
school chemistry labs
school textbooks
school PE equipment
school lockers
school yearbooks
school marching band instruments
school music stands and special chairs and risers
school football fields
school certificates of merit, and diplomas
school report cards or the computers programs to create them
school math manipulatives
school desks
school tables and chairs for libraries, cafeterias, classrooms
school rings and jackets and t-shirts
school biology labs (skeletons, fetal pigs in jars, tons of charts and posters)
school sports uniforms and equipment and gyms and mats and locker rooms
school cheerleaders and uniforms and insurance for them building human pyramids

I'm too dismayed to think of more.  You guys take it.

Sandra


Lorna Laurie

...guidance counselors
specialists
student assistance/psychologist
school administration
state administration
state research and implementation of findings
accreditation
purchased standardized evaluation
special education
pension system

So true, so true, an enormous machine...but to say the unpopular thing...the system is there for those who are unable to keep their kids at home(and for those who personally choose institutionalized education for their children). I, myself, did not have a situation that allowed it until two years ago when my son was 12 and he decided to school at home without me while I worked...and did great, though I carried a lot of fear at the time of being found out.






On Sunday, February 16, 2014 12:02 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 
-=-The more I observe and read about learning, the more convinced I am that the education system as it stands is a jobs program.... -=-

Oh my gosh.  
It IS.  And not just for teachers. 
If you extend it out from any given point, there are TONS of people whose jobs depend on the existence of...
school cafeterias
school libraries
school buses
school chemistry labs
school textbooks
school PE equipment
school lockers
school yearbooks
school marching band instruments
school music stands and special chairs and risers
school football fields
school certificates of merit, and diplomas
school report cards or the computers programs to create them
school math manipulatives
school desks
school tables and chairs for libraries, cafeterias, classrooms
school rings and jackets and t-shirts
school biology labs (skeletons, fetal pigs in jars, tons of charts and posters)
school sports uniforms and equipment and gyms and mats and locker rooms
school cheerleaders and uniforms and insurance for them building human pyramids

I'm too dismayed to think of more.  You guys take it.

Sandra


Marina DeLuca-Howard

standardized testing--a big job outsourced to companies who create the new tests year after year
paper manufacturers
pencil manufacturers
school handymen who install and fix things like pencil sharpeners

Marina


On 16 February 2014 00:09, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
 

Don't forget the "portal" programs that allows parents to look up their child's 'progress' in any class by getting instantaneous information about what grade they have gotten on which assignment.  

Apparently, "good" parents track their child's every grade with great obsession...
chris


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:02 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-The more I observe and read about learning, the more convinced I am that the education system as it stands is a jobs program.... -=-


Oh my gosh.  
It IS.  And not just for teachers. 
If you extend it out from any given point, there are TONS of people whose jobs depend on the existence of...
school cafeterias
school libraries
school buses
school chemistry labs
school textbooks
school PE equipment
school lockers
school yearbooks
school marching band instruments
school music stands and special chairs and risers
school football fields
school certificates of merit, and diplomas
school report cards or the computers programs to create them
school math manipulatives
school desks
school tables and chairs for libraries, cafeterias, classrooms
school rings and jackets and t-shirts
school biology labs (skeletons, fetal pigs in jars, tons of charts and posters)
school sports uniforms and equipment and gyms and mats and locker rooms
school cheerleaders and uniforms and insurance for them building human pyramids

I'm too dismayed to think of more.  You guys take it.

Sandra





--
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?  Eleanor Roosevelt

Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs at himself. (Seneca)

Anna-Marie

-Tutoring companies (Kumon, Sylvan Learning Centers)
-Companies that sell personalized gifts for teachers

Pam Sorooshian

I think that sounds like conspiracy theory and not likely at all. What IS likely is that people who go into teaching are math phobic, themselves, and they pass on confusion and distaste to their students.

-pam

On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
I also always suspected that school systems vastly over complicated  math as a job security measure.


Sandra Dodd

An article on sleep and depression.

I don't like that it refers to depression as "a mood disorder."   It's a condition, not "a disorder."  And it's not like "mood" is a solid element of a human mind/body anyway.  

But I *DO* like that half a day after stumbling upon that reference to kids doing sums in their sleep, this has a note about that:

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/08/13/the-twenty-four-hour-mind-rosalind-cartwright/

"Despite differences in terminology, all the contemporary theories of dreaming have a common thread — they all emphasize that dreams are not about prosaic themes, not about reading, writing, and arithmetic, but about emotion, or what psychologists refer to as affect. What is carried forward from waking hours into sleep are recent experiences that have an emotional component, often those that were negative in tone but not noticed at the time or not fully resolved. "

So!
IF "sums" were coming into sleep, that might mean the child was having a negative unresolved emotional reaction to them.  

Pam, maybe you and Roya could look into that.  "A Century of Math Dreams."  :-)

Sandra

chris ester

I didn't mean it to sound like a conspiracy so much as much of the education establishment seems to lean toward vastly overcomplicated "teaching systems" that do not seem to take into account the research out there on human development.  

There are actually people who specialize in teaching math to very young children, despite the fact that most children are not "wired" for math concepts, just number sense and don't need to know math at all,  Instead they could just play with numbers stuff, like sorting and counting if they want to.  

It is a jobs program because it is a failure of imagination that any other way to educate or babysit children is possible. 

Chris


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 3:33 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
 

I think that sounds like conspiracy theory and not likely at all. What IS likely is that people who go into teaching are math phobic, themselves, and they pass on confusion and distaste to their students.

-pam


On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
I also always suspected that school systems vastly over complicated  math as a job security measure.



chris ester




On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 12:17 AM, Lorna Laurie <lorna.laurie@...> wrote:
 

>>>>...but to say the unpopular thing...the system is there for those who are unable to keep their kids at home(and for those who personally choose institutionalized education for their children).>>>>>

Or more unpopular is to say that the system is there to support itself and it's institutional mandates and the students are incidental to the entire process.  One of the main reasons for me to choose homeschooling is because as a social worker I worked with the schools to help children but often the institutional mandate would overshadow the needs of the child.  The idea that a child could be better served by being left out of school and allowed to cope with the stuff of their lives with support could not be fathomed.  

Chris

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 15, 2014, at 11:43 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:

> I also always suspected that school systems vastly over complicated math as a job security measure.

That assumes educators know a better way to teach math but choose to complicate it to create jobs.

I think any theory of "how things are" that requires the people involved to be less moral or less intelligent than the one coming up with the theory, that theory needs examined further.

The question to ask is why do massive numbers of people, people willing to devote their lives to working in and improving the system, believe school instruction works? There's 3 things:

1) If the goal of school is seen as future security for the child, most kids *do* go onto college and/or jobs and become productive citizens. It encourages the belief that if educators just work harder the system could work for everyone.

2) Educators are bound by methods that produce testable results. Educators have to -- and should -- show all along that what they're doing works.

3) Public education works for what it was originally, 100 years ago, designed to do: to get kids reading, writing, doing some math, and get some geography, history and literature knowledge in too while they're there.

Unfortunately the more people drawn into the system to "fix" it, to make it work for every child, the harder it becomes to change.

The change isn't going to come from schools. Parents *want* what schools offer. They want the comfort of believing that schools can prepare their kids to get a secure job and future.

Natural learning is easy to understand. It's not so easy to feel confident that natural learning is as good as (let alone better) than institutional learning.

Natural learning *shouldn't* test as well as school learning. It isn't geared to passing tests. It's geared to understanding. And understanding is hard to test for!

If Natural learning were easy to trust Sandra could have put up on her website:

Create a rich environment. Support and feed their interests. Connect with them.

And none of us would still be sitting here nearly 20 years later, still explaining that it does work. ;-)

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-It is a jobs program because it is a failure of imagination that any other way to educate or babysit children is possible. -=-

I think it's a jobs program because the government made it mandatory, which guarantees jobs, and there continue to be add-on programs and expenses and expansions, providing more jobs for more specialists and consultants and lawyers and bookeepers. :-)

The teacher's union in California employees two attorneys full time.  (Or there were two ten years ago, anyway).  I know this because one of them was one of my best friends in college. :-)  And the union isn't even "the school."  

The connections just keep going out and out...

I think the complaint about math being taught too much is that at least in American schools, each days seems to have math, language (reading/writing), science, history.  All the time.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-So true, so true, an enormous machine...but to say the unpopular thing...the system is there for those who are unable to keep their kids at home(and for those who personally choose institutionalized education for their children).-=-

I don't think that's true.
Most people wouldn't even want to keep their kids home.  
Many parents don't "personally choose" anything, but take what they can afford while they work hard to provide a home with heat and food.

Too harsh to say they're making irresponsible choices, I think.

And YOUR kid might end up in school, so don't demonize it for them.

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-If Natural learning were easy to trust Sandra could have put up on her website:

Create a rich environment. Support and feed their interests. Connect with them.

And none of us would still be sitting here nearly 20 years later, still explaining that it does work. ;-)-=-

________________________

Is it too late to go back to a one-page website?

I'm getting tired.

Sandra

Marina Moses

Don't get tired yet, Sandra! I think I'm starting to get it! It would be so much slower without your input! 


On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-If Natural learning were easy to trust Sandra could have put up on her website:



Create a rich environment. Support and feed their interests. Connect with them.

And none of us would still be sitting here nearly 20 years later, still explaining that it does work. ;-)-=-

________________________

Is it too late to go back to a one-page website?

I'm getting tired.

Sandra




--
Love and Prayers,
Marina

CASS KOTRBA

-=- Or more unpopular is to say that the system is there to support itself and it's institutional mandates and the students are incidental to the entire process. -=-    
 
The school system is deeply flawed, to be sure, but I think it is worth pointing out that there are lots of kids for whom school is a safer, healthier, more enriching environment than home.  There are also many good parents out there that see the flaws in the system and want better for their children but feel powerless to provide it on their own for any of a variety of reasons.  Those of us participating in this conversation are very fortunate to be in a position where we know all of the choices we have and we have the stability and self confidence to choose to unschool.  Not just fortunate.  As my dad often says "you make your own luck".
-Cass

chris ester

I absolutely agree with you that we are VERY lucky to be able to homeschool our children. 

There are a huge number of factors that created the current system and unfortunately, real, meaningful change is nearly impossible because of many of those same factors.  

I know that schools do many good things.  In the USA, many children receive food that would never be available to them for free in school.  And as much as many people would debate the quality of that food, and it is a conversation that should be had, any food beats no food any day.  This is only one example of the good things that schools do.

Many children do find refuge at school from home, probably not as many as some would think, but as a former child welfare social worker I get that most schools are a safe place.  

I also know that many, even most, teachers went into the profession for only good reasons and want to help children grow and learn and thrive.  The all too significant number of "bad" teachers probably did not start out with the idea of being detrimental to children, many are overworked and under supported and could be better if only they got the support that they need.  

I always pay attention to education issues involving the mainstream education system and at least vote my conscience for the improvement of schools.  I am not one of those homeschoolers who want their property taxes back because I am not using the school system.  I want the school system to use that money well, but I feel blessed that I am able to pay property taxes at all and gladly give that money.  

All of this being said, the educational behemoth is a LARGE bureaucracy and a bureaucracy, once created, is much like a living organism and exists to perpetuate itself, first and foremost.   I don't know how to fix the school system that we have here in the USA, but I do know that testing, testing, testing is not the way to fix things.  Nor is besieging teachers and cutting their pay and benefits.  

I could go on, but that isn't the purpose of this list.  
chris


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 9:45 AM, CASS KOTRBA <caskot@...> wrote:
 

-=- Or more unpopular is to say that the system is there to support itself and it's institutional mandates and the students are incidental to the entire process. -=-    
 
The school system is deeply flawed, to be sure, but I think it is worth pointing out that there are lots of kids for whom school is a safer, healthier, more enriching environment than home.  There are also many good parents out there that see the flaws in the system and want better for their children but feel powerless to provide it on their own for any of a variety of reasons.  Those of us participating in this conversation are very fortunate to be in a position where we know all of the choices we have and we have the stability and self confidence to choose to unschool.  Not just fortunate.  As my dad often says "you make your own luck".
-Cass


Sandra Dodd

-=-All of this being said, the educational behemoth is a LARGE bureaucracy and a bureaucracy, once created, is much like a living organism and exists to perpetuate itself, first and foremost.-=-

Yes, that's true. And rules and programs once made and created are almost never undone, so it grows.

One thing unschoolers are doing, incidentally, on the side, is showing that school is not as necessary as they claim it to be. We don't need to make a bigger deal of this than we already are. Gradually over time, more and more people will meet someone who grew up without "schooling" and that will soften their fears and their beliefs in school.

At the same time, the information is more available. in Good Will Hunting, the claim was that one could get that knowledge for a library card. Now one doesn't even need to leave the house to get more than most library cards can provide even with interlibrary loan.

Even people in school will clearly see that most of their learning came from the internet or their own explorations.

My own public school education was in the glory days of the school system—from the late 1950's throught the 1960's. Modern, scientific, pretty well funded, Kennedy's health initiatives, so lots of play time, and equipment. New cafeterias.

School was the enrichment of my life, because home was fairly anti-intellectual, anti-anything my mom didn't like, and she didn't like much.

I think everyone should think of what they liked best about school, and then provide those conditions at home.

From http://sandradodd.com/deschooling:

• Remember school. Take a breath and picture your favorite, clearest school year. See all the elements of its form and organization. Is it vivid?
Okay. Here is how you learn NOT to overlay all that on your unschooling life where its structure and terminology will disturb the peace and hinder progress. I am asking you to take your school memories, add light, and stir.
_______________

Don't throw ALL of school out. Don't throw out playing, singing, looking at art, talking to adults who are interested in what they know. if you loved the microscope, get a microscope! Or make regular trips to a science museum where they have one people can use.

With careful thought and discrimination, parents can bring good ideas home while soothing their inner child about what might be missed, and what WAS important, and what might not have been so necessary.

Sandra

chris ester


>>>>>On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:44 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Yes, that's true.  And rules and programs once made and created are almost never undone, so it grows.<<<<<<

I found this while looking up some other things.  It seems to fit in with this conversation.  


I don't know that the teacher who wrote this letter was actually a good teacher, but he seems to sum up a few of the flaws in the system as it stands.

One person who commented called this teacher a "dinosaur" and that may be true, but I have heard many teachers (who are now homeschoolers) say the exact same things about the education system when discussing why they no longer teach and why they now homeschool.
chris