<anna.black@...>

I'm not sure if this is an unschooling question, but I would
appreciate any thoughts or experiences.

My older daughter, Abi, is 6 years old, seven in a week.  We have just
started unschooling/deschooling, prior to this year she attended a
Montessori pre-school for 3 1/2 years.  We discovered unschooling
after she'd been attending for a year, and we ended up letting her
finish the program, partly for financial reasons, as we had a plan in
place which would allow me to leave work to unschool from this year.

Just lately, really only the past couple of weeks, Abi has started to
say that she's stupid, and hates herself.  Sometimes this is in
response to something she's making going wrong, or not matching her
expectations somehow.  At other times, like today, it is focused on
how she looks - she hates her hair, or how she looks in her clothes.

I'm not sure of the best way to handle this.  So far the response that
seems to help the most is to sympathise a bit, remind her how much I
love her, and to try and distract her.  Today I told her I was so
sorry she felt bad, that everyone feels that way sometimes, that I
loved her enough for both of us, and that I thought she wouldn't feel
that way forever.  I also tried a few little observations about
different beauty ideas around the world and over time.    She enjoyed
those and laughed when I told her about women being prized for tiny
feet in China a long time ago.

Anyway, she is feeling happy again now, but I think it might keep
coming up and I'd love any advice.  It is very hard to hear that your
child hates herself and wishes she didn't exist, which is what Abi
said today.  But if she feels that way I want her to be able to tell
me and not hide things away to protect me.  She is a very very
sensitive, empathic child and affected strongly by atmosphere in the
house.

Some other factors that might be involved are that she has a nasty
cough right now, and we are getting ready to move, although only in
theory so far, no packing yet.

I don't want to underreact or overreact.   I have had flashes of
thinking maybe she'd be better off at school as she would be busier
and more distracted all day with less chance to dwell.

I'll finish there.  Thank you for any thoughts.

Pam Sorooshian

I think the way you've responded sounds very nice and realistic. 

I really like the combination of accepting that she really feels that way, but at the same time showing confidence that it will pass.

I have a couple of thoughts on the following:

<<I have had flashes of
thinking maybe she'd be better off at school as she would be busier
and more distracted all day with less chance to dwell.
>>

First - Montessori schools are pretty distracting because the kids are usually busy all the time, but other schools would involve lots of waiting around time and are very boring - the opposite of distracting.

Second - what she's learning about how to move herself out of a funk is REALLY important - do you really want to deny her this opportunity to learn it by putting her somewhere where she'll be so busy she won't experience it?

If I was making a list of life skills - learning to get oneself out of a bad mood, learning to change focus from self-pity or negativity toward oneself, and learning to handle negative feelings would be at the top of the list. The ability to handle what life throws at you - and handle it in such a way that you move through it and continue to live a good life filled with joy and gratitude - THAT is the most important thing there is to learn.

So - she's got some negative stuff going on and, with your help, she's trying out different ways of getting through it. You're offering her a variety of examples - distraction, talking about it, doing something about it, finding humor in it, recognizing that the feelings will pass, and more. Those are the very tools she'll reach for later when she has trouble with friends, or a medical problem, or a boyfriend dumps her, or she experience loss of a loved one....from the smallest bit of discomfort right up to the biggest tragedies! 

Sounds to me like you're doing great. Don't wish for her to never experience any negative feelings in her childhood at all - wish for her to learn from it and move on smoothly.

-pam

CASS KOTRBA

-=- <<I have had flashes of thinking maybe she'd be better off at school as she would be busier and more distracted all day with less chance to dwell.>>
 
In our experience, school will do the opposite of raising her self esteem.  My daughter (11 1/2) went to public school through 3rd grade and it degraded her confidence greatly.  There is a lot of judgment from teachers and peers as well as a great deal of pressure to conform.  I have often said that watching her go through school was like watching a beautiful hot air balloon floating through the air and seeing small tears start to form in the fabric.  The longer she was there the bigger those holes became and her little basket started slowly but surely sinking to the ground. 
 
Fortunately I discovered Unschooling which gave me the confidence to offer her the opportunity to quit school (prior to that I was very concerned about how well we'd do with school at home.  At least home had been a retreat for her & I didn't want to turn that retreat into a mini version of school.).  Being at home in a supportive environment where she has control over social and other aspects of her life has been very healing for her.  She used to say a lot of self deprecating things but over the past year and a half she has remade her image in her own mind.  She loves her new identity as a "computer geek" and gamer girl.  She sports bright pink hair and that is also a great source of pride for her.
 
About a month ago we went to the mall.  There is a clothing store there that "the cool girls" shop at and she usually likes to hit that store first.  We drove an hour and a half over windy mountain roads to get there and when we went into the store there was a gal cleaning nail polish off of the floor with a chemical that was pretty smelly.  We shopped around & picked out a couple of things but Jade seemed really down and was not into it.  While we were checking out I looked over at her and she was as white as a ghost, looking like she was about to pass out.  She sat on the floor to wait for me and suddenly her face flushed bright red.  She felt horrible, was confused and discombobulated and wanted to go home.  I suggested we sit in the food court for awhile and see if it would pass. 
 
While we sat I talked to her about other stores she might want to go into and things she might want to buy.  She said she was not up for it.  Then I asked her about a minecraft video she had been talking about earlier.  The change that came over her was priceless to witness.  She suddenly seemed to remember "oh yeah... I'm Sweetiepie1011!  I have pink hair and a fabulous new life and identity."  Within a couple of minutes her coloring returned to normal and she was ready to roll.  I believe that part of her feeling yucky was due to the car ride and the yucky smell but mostly it was because she got sucked into that vortex of negative emotions that school had created in her.  Remembering that she had evolved into someone else and didn't care about those girls from school anymore pulled her right back out of it. 
 
It has been a wonderful thing to see her balloon starting to soar again.  It took some time, love and support but now she thinks she is awesome.  She still has some insecurities, to be sure, but fortunately we have time for her to work through those, as well.  So I think you guys are on the right track.  Love her up and give her time to heal.  It's hard to know what effect schooling has had on your daughter's psyche but for sure unschooling will help!!
-Cass

CASS KOTRBA

After she recovered herself at the mall that day she declared that she hates that store now and will never be going there again.  :D  That's ok, there are other stores.

<anna.black@...>

Thank you Pam, you're right of course.  My husband certainly thinks she'd be having either the same or worse issues if she was at school.  It seems to be where my mind first goes though, when things aren't wonderful 100% of the time - that maybe she'd be better off at school.  

I don't really think that though, and I think it's part of my deschooling.

Yes I think learning and experimenting with moving on and redirecting negative thoughts is very valuable.  I feel reassured by your post, and would welcome any more thoughts, or different ways I could support her.

Greg and Kirsty Harriman

HI Anna
 
far be it for me to proffer advice on this list as I am very much in early infancy on our journey into radical unschooling. I did want to reply though because your daughter sounds exactly like our eldest daughter who is 8 (9 in April). She’s also acutely sensitive, self-deprecating, perfectionistic, smart and all that you have described. She often talks about how she hates her red hair (its gorgeous), how skinny she is (genetic, my husband is very lean) and how she “hates her life” which she said just last night. Its heartbreaking for me to hear (just the night before last I spent most of it until the wee early hours crying (I literally woke up at 3 am in fits of tears) partly from her apparent discontent with everything, everyone and the world in general and partly because I am overwhelmed by her staying up until 1 am watching barbie movies and wondering where my little girl has gone (this is a different subject though).
 
SO, last night during one of these sessions I just remained very quiet, I listened, I stayed still and allowed her to express. In the end it became apparent that she feels its grossly unfair that I allow the younger ones on my phone to do games she gets to do on her ipod. So I offered her to use my phone for a while before it was time to go to bed (bedtimes here are completely chaotic along with everything else in our life since we started to let go of control a couple of months ago). She did happily, then I walked her to bed and read to her (a lovely activity which we she’s always enjoyed until barbie movies and her ipod came to live here at christmas time), and she then wanted to read more herself, seemed a lot more content, said she loved me (she does say that a lot more these days in between the negativity) and went to sleep happily.
 
So the long and short of sharing this episode from last night is that I have also not known how to respond to her saying things like “I am dumb, stupid, ugly etc etc” except to just be with her, listen, and be still. It does not work to rebuke or deny or argue back. I just try to listen to what’s behind the words and then move her into a different more peaceful zone. One on one time is at a premium (I have four kids and I find this very difficult to make happen) so often she just needs me to be with her undistracted.
 
I have also thought many many times she would be better off at school where there’s more kids, more stimulation. But its not the answer. She would still be herself with the same stuff, whether she’s at school or not. And doing so could well compound the issues as your husband has pointed out. I have had to work through this knee jerk reaction and understand that school isn’t the answer to her extremely challenging attitudes and behaviour.
 
I had a lot of similar thoughts growing up (I am still highly self-critical) and all I needed (and still need) was for someone to be with me through the process without judgement or dismissal.
 
Though lately I am thinking someone needs to be EMPOWERING in this process as well. I am still working out how or what “being empowering” looks like. I wonder if anyone else could share some jewels on this?
 
blessings
Kirsty
 
 
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 7:13 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] RE: My daughter says she's stupid
 
 

Thank you Pam, you're right of course.  My husband certainly thinks she'd be having either the same or worse issues if she was at school.  It seems to be where my mind first goes though, when things aren't wonderful 100% of the time - that maybe she'd be better off at school.  

 
I don't really think that though, and I think it's part of my deschooling.
 
Yes I think learning and experimenting with moving on and redirecting negative thoughts is very valuable.  I feel reassured by your post, and would welcome any more thoughts, or different ways I could support her.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm not sure of the best way to handle this.  So far the response that
seems to help the most is to sympathise a bit, remind her how much I
love her, and to try and distract her.  -=-

That's what I would do.

Some people are more self-conscious than others.  I think the idea of talking about different styles from other times and places is helpful in any case—connections.  

Or you could say "Whose hair do you think is pretty?" when you're people-watching, or looking at a magazine, or whatever.  Just engage her in conversation about texture and form in other ways—furniture, trees...  

If you can be more general rather than more particular, it might help.   

-=-  She enjoyed
those and laughed when I told her about women being prized for tiny
feet in China a long time ago.-=-

You could follow trails, and it will be good deschooling for yourself, too (and trivia opportunities for her).

Our wheelbarrows are based on something like a litter—a tray carried by two, and one person was replaced by a wheel.
In China, their wheelbarrow is based on a frame that used to be put on an pack animal.  They replaced the animal with a big wheel.

One use for these big "wheelbarrows," even after photography came along, was to transport women whose footbinding kept them from travelling in any natural way.  (Also if they were of a rank and class to have bound feet, they probably had servants or money.)  
There's a photo here.

Perhaps it comes under "distraction," but I think following trails and making connections is at the heart of how unschooling works.


I'll go a different direction in another post. 

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Have you seen the list of things that cause stress?  

Moving is way up there, even if a person wants to move.

Changing jobs, too (in this case, school).

-=-I don't want to underreact or overreact.   I have had flashes of
thinking maybe she'd be better off at school as she would be busier
and more distracted all day with less chance to dwell.-=-

Did she want to come home?

One of the worst things about school is the powerlessness of children, if they are in a place they don't want to be.

Don't do that at home.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-After she recovered herself at the mall that day she declared that she hates that store now and will never be going there again.  :D  That's ok, there are other stores.-=-

It's better not to encourage a child to reject anything because of one experience, one day.  

When this happened with my kids I would say "Another day it won't smell this way," or "There are lots of waiters here; that's just one guy," or "There are different cooks diffrent days," or "I wouldn't like someone to reject me forever just because they met me when I was sick or upset or tired."  

Keeping the door open for future possibilities keeps the world bigger.



Sandra




Sandra Dodd

-=-. Its heartbreaking for me to hear (just the night before last I spent most of it until the wee early hours crying (I literally woke up at 3 am in fits of tears) partly from her apparent discontent with everything, everyone and the world in general and partly because I am overwhelmed by her staying up until 1 am watching barbie movies and wondering where my little girl has gone (this is a different subject though).-=-

I think it could easily be the same subject.

If you're unhappy with her to the point that you're crying, that leaves her more alone in the world than she would be if you could find ways to get it together.

-=- She did happily, then I walked her to bed and read to her (a lovely activity which we she’s always enjoyed until barbie movies and her ipod came to live here at christmas time)-=-

Did those moves and ipod come on their own, agasint your will?
It's the middle of February.  Are you still resentful of things she was happy to get for Christmas? 

I hope you're not holding your breath (or crying at night) because  you're hoping barbie movies and the ipod go away, somehow, the same way they "came to live" with you.

Being honest with yourself in word and thought is crucial to gaining the clarity and groundedness you need to share with her.

-=-Though lately I am thinking someone needs to be EMPOWERING in this process as well. I am still working out how or what “being empowering” looks like. I wonder if anyone else could share some jewels on this?-=-

I hope you're thinking that it's you who needs to be empowering.

This was discussed in the Wednesday chat some.  The trancript is already edited and available (thanks to Marta Pires):


One part I was thinking of:

Sandra Dodd: If you aren't able to generate enough hope and joy to share with your family, who will?

Sandra Dodd: It's not enough for a mom to keep her own head barely above water in a sea of despair. She needs to get up on dry land and lead her children in another direction.


Sandra




Sandra Dodd

-=-I have also thought many many times she would be better off at school where there’s more kids, more stimulation. But its not the answer. She would still be herself with the same stuff, whether she’s at school or not.-=-

What school will NOT do is to make the mother the source of the pressure and frustration and disapproval.

-=-And doing so could well compound the issues as your husband has pointed out. I have had to work through this knee jerk reaction and understand that school isn’t the answer to her extremely challenging attitudes and behaviour.-=-

I don't think you've worked through it yet.

And you don't "have to."
If you choose to, you need to choose it over, and over, and over—every time, for good an dsensible reasons, until it's not something you think of and write down and send to people in a discussion.

http://sandradodd.com/haveto
(and follow other links to choices)


It's not enough to decide "once and for all" that she will be home and not at school.
It's not good to say "I have had to work through this reaction and understand..." when maybe you're wrong, and you're clearly still considering it.


As an example, I did decide (years ago) to marry Keith Dodd. Then we planned the wedding and I swore in front of friends and relatives to stay with him until one of us died. Once and for all.

That doesn't keep me here, all by itself, though. I decide all the time to make our lives good and to stay. Some days are not perfect, and some nearly are, but it's though lots of decisions throughout the day that it stays good.

Same with parenting peacefully.

Same with unschooling.

Same with anything.

When you speak, or act, or think, consider two options and make the better choice.

Don't stay stuck with the same two choices, or think that deciding once will last a lifetime, or a year, or even a week.


Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- Its heartbreaking for me to hear (just the night before last I spent most of it until the wee early hours crying (I literally woke up at 3 am in fits of tears) partly from her apparent discontent with everything, everyone and the world in general and partly because I am overwhelmed by her staying up until 1 am watching barbie movies and wondering where my little girl has gone (this is a different subject though).-=-

You have three other children.
Were there other stresses?
Were you hungry, angry, lonely or tired? Sick?

To blame your child (and Barbie) for your inability to calm yourself is a lot of negativity pointed at ONE member of your family.

http://sandradodd.com/breathing

Maybe you could listen to a comforting audio book with earbuds and fall asleep listening. You could still hear if one of the kids needed you. Listening to a soothing voice and breathing slowly might help you.

Sandra

<anna.black@...>

Abi is firm in her desire to not go to school at this point.  Her Montessori program finished last year and although her friends all went on to school, she didn't and doesn't want to.  We've discussed that she may want to try school at some point, but for now she wants to stay home.  

So far she has made a good friend connection at a home school group and is enjoying all the things we are doing.  She is also recovering from what I discovered today is whooping cough, in spite of her vaccination.

Today has been a very happy day for her and she has spontaneously remarked how happy she feels several times.  So maybe yesterday's emotion and stress was a bit cathartic for her.  I hope so.


Pam Sorooshian


On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 12:53 AM, <anna.black@...> wrote:
<<Today has been a very happy day for her and she has spontaneously remarked how happy she feels several times.  So maybe yesterday's emotion and stress was a bit cathartic for her.  I hope so>>

A friend once said to me, "My kids are pretty much always just fine - not ecstatically happy or miserably sad - just fine. But yours have such big ups and downs - such extremes of joy and despair. For yours everything that happens is the BEST ever or the WORST ever."

True. People are different and maybe you're thrown by having a daughter who is more moody than you are. 

-pam

Sandra Dodd

-=-A friend once said to me, "My kids are pretty much always just fine - not ecstatically happy or miserably sad - just fine. But yours have such big ups and downs - such extremes of joy and despair. For yours everything that happens is the BEST ever or the WORST ever."-=-

Yes.
If you think of a baseline with graphic capability on either side, and a sine wave on it, however high a person's emotions go is going to have a corresponding low point.  Some people are right near the line all the time.  "Even keeled," people call it.  And very unfairly they say "self-restrained."

I have three male friends I've known for many years, all of them absolutely "self-restrained."  The only thing is that this is through no force of will or "control" on their own parts.  It's a limitation, a constraint, of their biochemistry.  It does look good on a man, to always be logical and rational, and never giddy or silly, and never despairing.  On a woman, it can look cold and "emotionless."   

Marty (my middle of three) is a bit like that, and his dad is, too.  Marty is like his dad in many physical ways, and this is one of them.

Kirby and Holly are more like me, and my mom, and my paternal grandmother (the person I'm most like physically).   Sometimes we are just ecstatically happy!  REALLY optimistic and full of energy and ideas and joy.    But huh-oh...  that curve will drop, and not because we lose our "will" or "self restraint."  

Sometimes the enthusiasm is gone for a while, but it's good to learn to live in oneself with that personality, and to remember it's going to come back.

If a person with marked highs and lows gets too involved with depressing politics or scary or sad this'n'that, or doesn't gather a tool box of self-soothing thoughts and behaviors (breathing, walking, sending birthday cards and thank you cards to other people, singing, playing sports—different sets for different people, but some positive, uplifting habits), the low can turn to a depression that isn't easy to rise out of, and can be nearly impossible to function from.

Those around them sometimes forget that they need to be kept "in the light" (sometimes physically, in Minnesota and points north; sometimes emotionally, in good news rather than sad stories that cause them to empathize with people they don't even know, if they're empathetic types).

People who live near the baseline call those others "manic depressive" or "bi-polar," when the sine wave goes WAY up and down.  When it's closer to the line, it's not "a disease."  But even when people have an extreme fluctuation, others aroung them can help them learn how to live with more peace and less disruption.  

It seems to me (after a long life of being that way and seeing others who are "worse"—beause a greater range of emotion is not the praised "centered" place), that people around can make it worse by criticizing the person as though it's all an act, all the person's idea, rather than accepting that the world isn't as consistently comfortable for them as it is for some others.

One of my friends was a judge for a while (temporary appointment by the governor; he's young to be a judge), and will very likely be a judge again when he's older.  He is always solid, always reliable and calming and soothing.  He told me once, though, that it would be worth the lows if he could ever experience some of the highs he sees in me and other friends of his.    As an attorney, though, his ability to be calm and soothing in criminal cases is a huge asset.  He worked in violent crimes for the district attorne's office for many years.  That would have ruined my life to see crime scenes and hear all the details, and people in grief, and people lying, and being sent to prison (or not).  He was as calm as ever, and didn't have bad dreams.  He's not cold-hearted at all.  He's very sweet and has three little girls, one of whom is deaf, and he is gentle and generous with them and all his friends.  

To someone who has high-energy phases, the low can feel like stupidity, like the machine that was working is broken.

And people's baselines are not consistent.  Some people, like Winnie the Pooh's friend Eeyore, live at a lower point in general than some others.  Some (I'm one) have a high-energy base line, so the "low" is still pretty high compared to some people's emotional "speed" and expectation.  And that can be very tiring.

It's not so important to talk to a child about those things as to respond to the child with the awareness that eventually he or she (and you) might understand better what his patterns and ranges are, and to accept that is IS normal for that child, and it does no good to advise him to be like you if he's not naturally like you.  

http://sandradodd.com/intelligences/zenthing has a quote that might be worth printing out and thinking about, in lots of circumstances, until it makes sense.  And it might make more sense again if you review it every few years.

Sandra

Lisa Celedon

<<I believe that part of her feeling yucky was due to the car ride and the yucky smell but mostly it was because she got sucked into that vortex of negative emotions that school had created in her.>>

I don't know if there was more to the conversation than you wrote here, but it seems like you might be reading more into this than is necessary.  I mean, you know your daughter best, and it's good to be aware of things that might trigger negative thoughts for her, but I wonder if SHE was equating the store with school.

I think Sandra's advice about not letting that one experience shut that door on a store she loves is a good one, and also, not adding your own negative assumptions to her experience.  It might really have just been the car ride and the nail polish… and even if you're correct, and that yuckiness carried her into thinking negative thoughts about what her school experience was like, it's better to help her NOT let that have power over her decisions about where she shops and what she likes.  There's an important difference between making a choice not to shop somewhere because you've lost interest in their goods, and feeling like you have to stop shopping somewhere you actually like, for any reason - the first is a choice made from a position of power and confidence in oneself, the second is in the position of a victim.  If she really has no interest in that kind of clothing anymore, that's one thing.  It doesn't sound like that though, based on what you wrote.

She doesn't have to stop loving her favorite store because she associates it with negativity from school (or nail polish remover).  Even if she first loved it because she wanted to 'fit in,' and that's what all the 'cool kids' wore, if she actually likes the clothing and finds it attractive, than it's a source of joy and positivity in her life and I would do everything you can to preserve that from negative associations-- starting with what's going on in your own mind.  Next time you go, you can validate the experience, "Yeah, this place smelled so bad last time we were here, let me step in and see if it smells better this time, because there's a really cute shirt in there I want to look at."  You guys can even write a feedback letter to store saying how much you love their clothes, but the smell negatively affected your shopping experience, if you think that will help your daughter feel empowered (I wouldn't do it if it will be a way to dwell on the negativity though).

Mostly though, don't get pulled into thinking negative thoughts about her associations.  YOU focus on all the positives (you can do that without minimizing or dismissing her feelings), and pull her along for the joyride, so that her favorite destinations don't get turned into smelly dumps.

Lisa C





CASS KOTRBA

-=- I don't know if there was more to the conversation than you wrote here, but it seems like you might be reading more into this than is necessary. I mean, you know your daughter best, and it's good to be aware of things that might trigger negative thoughts for her, but I wonder if SHE was equating the store with school. -=-
 
Maybe it was a bad example to use because there are so many nuances to the situation & it would take a lot of everyone's time to elaborate on all of the details.  I think I may not have given enough detail or should not have tried to use this example. 
 
It is definitely a store that SHE equates with school, and one former friend especially.  She seemed to feel empowered knowing that she had the power to say "No, I do not like this store, the way I feel when I'm there or the things in it.  I want it to put it in my past".  That was why I excepted her statement & her decision instead of saying something that she might take as me trying to change her mind or questioning her decision.  As Sandra suggested, I could have pointed out to her that she might feel differently later.  She does know from past conversations & experiences that she has the choice to change her mind anytime.  :D  She is a person who knows her own mind and what she wants/doesn’t want so I let it go, feeling that we both already knew she might change her mind later but that it would be her decision. 
 
This is also a child who has CLEARLY suffered many asthma attacks due to anxiety.  It has been very interesting to observe how much of a dramatic impact her emotions have on her physical, observable health.  That was the part I was trying to use as an example.  It has been incredibly helpful for me to understand how deeply she feels things and how much it effects her on a physical as well as emotional level.
 
-=- Mostly though, don't get pulled into thinking negative thoughts about her associations. YOU focus on all the positives (you can do that without minimizing or dismissing her feelings), and pull her along for the joyride, so that her favorite destinations don't get turned into smelly dumps.-=-
 
I was calm and supportive but observed the changes in her.  I did focus on positives and that is what pulled her out of it.  That particular store has always had a lot of negative associations for her so I supported her choice to not want to go there anymore.  She has realized over the past few trips there that she doesn't actually like their clothes & that she only valued it because of things other girls had said to her in the past.  We also went into a couple of new stores we'd never explored before & she expressed joy to be changing her focus toward things she is interested in now instead of focusing on negative emotions of the past.  That was the part that was cool.  Maybe she will decide to go there again in the future but her reasons for going will have changed.  Sorry for not being more clear. :D

Lorna Laurie

 <during one of these sessions I just remained very quiet, I listened, I stayed still and allowed her to express>

This is best...everyone just wants to be heard and not told how to feel. I would add to this what I did with my son for who went through a very difficult transformation which took years of daily listening and now states happily that he's happy...listen and use the therapist's method of repeating back for validation and help with getting to the root of feelings. I am stupid...help the child identlfy the feeling by echoing..you're telling me you feel stupid...then just let him/her talk...don'y say much.


On Friday, February 14, 2014 4:57 PM, CASS KOTRBA <caskot@...> wrote:
 
-=- I don't know if there was more to the conversation than you wrote here, but it seems like you might be reading more into this than is necessary. I mean, you know your daughter best, and it's good to be aware of things that might trigger negative thoughts for her, but I wonder if SHE was equating the store with school. -=-
 
Maybe it was a bad example to use because there are so many nuances to the situation & it would take a lot of everyone's time to elaborate on all of the details.  I think I may not have given enough detail or should not have tried to use this example. 
 
It is definitely a store that SHE equates with school, and one former friend especially.  She seemed to feel empowered knowing that she had the power to say "No, I do not like this store, the way I feel when I'm there or the things in it.  I want it to put it in my past".  That was why I excepted her statement & her decision instead of saying something that she might take as me trying to change her mind or questioning her decision.  As Sandra suggested, I could have pointed out to her that she might feel differently later.  She does know from past conversations & experiences that she has the choice to change her mind anytime.  :D  She is a person who knows her own mind and what she wants/doesn’t want so I let it go, feeling that we both already knew she might change her mind later but that it would be her decision. 
 
This is also a child who has CLEARLY suffered many asthma attacks due to anxiety.  It has been very interesting to observe how much of a dramatic impact her emotions have on her physical, observable health.  That was the part I was trying to use as an example.  It has been incredibly helpful for me to understand how deeply she feels things and how much it effects her on a physical as well as emotional level.
 
-=- Mostly though, don't get pulled into thinking negative thoughts about her associations. YOU focus on all the positives (you can do that without minimizing or dismissing her feelings), and pull her along for the joyride, so that her favorite destinations don't get turned into smelly dumps.-=-
 
I was calm and supportive but observed the changes in her.  I did focus on positives and that is what pulled her out of it.  That particular store has always had a lot of negative associations for her so I supported her choice to not want to go there anymore.  She has realized over the past few trips there that she doesn't actually like their clothes & that she only valued it because of things other girls had said to her in the past.  We also went into a couple of new stores we'd never explored before & she expressed joy to be changing her focus toward things she is interested in now instead of focusing on negative emotions of the past.  That was the part that was cool.  Maybe she will decide to go there again in the future but her reasons for going will have changed.  Sorry for not being more clear. :D


<plaidpanties666@...>

>>One on one time is at a premium (I have four kids and I find this very difficult to make happen) so often she just needs me to be with her undistracted.<<

I wonder if she's using especially strong language as a way to get your attention, or if that's really how she feels. It could easily be a combination of both.

Especially as the oldest, she may not be getting nearly as much attention as she needs. And realistically, from her point of view, her life isn't very good, and she's obviously less attractive and interesting than than the babies: she's stupid, ugly and unwanted. And it's natural that she might then prefer to reassure herself with stories of brave, clever, resourceful heroines who look out for each other - the main themes of the Barbie movies and games - and maybe even use stories like that as a kind of escape (although they're great stories and I highly recommend them! Sisterhood is powerful!).

So spending a big chunk of time with her may have been exactly what she needed - both because she's a little girl who still needs a looooooot of time with her mommy, and because she needs a bit of reassurance that she's not as insignificant as it might often seem in a home with three other children. 

>>I am still working out how or what “being empowering” looks like. I wonder if anyone else could share some jewels on this?>

Watch some of those Barbie moves with her. Do this for several reasons - to let her know that what she likes is important to you (she's not less important than the babies), to give her some of the attention she needs, and for tips - because the Barbie movies are all about empowerment, about finding what's wonderful in yourself and let it shine (and not-so-coincidentally save the day). 

---Meredith

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>listen and use the therapist's method of repeating back for validation and help with getting to the root of feelings<<

Play that by ear - some people find it valuable, others find it dismissive, or otherwise irritating. 

Don't make "getting to the root of feelings" your goal, necessarily. That can feel an awful lot like trying to change someone rather than having a caring, sympathetic friend. 

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=- <during one of these sessions I just remained very quiet, I listened, I stayed still and allowed her to express>

-=-This is best...everyone just wants to be heard and not told how to feel.-=-

That seems a bit too definite and singular.
If everyone just wants to be heard, I'm not interested in keeping this discussion going, that's for sure. To make observations on what people write is not telling them how to feel. Sometimes it's showing them where they might be "getting cold" in terms of unsschooling.

With parents and children, sometimes the advice parents give is to keep children from "getting cold" in terms of social abilities or opportunities, or in keeping their world open and available, and helping them to see clearly when they're muddled.

When my kids talk to me about how they're feeling, sometimes they want ideas. Sometimes they don't. I don't always guess right, but if I assumed every situation was the same and every person was the same, that wouldn't be using my judgment at all.

-=- I would add to this what I did with my son for who went through a very difficult transformation which took years of daily listening and now states happily that he's happy...listen and use the therapist's method of repeating back for validation and help with getting to the root of feelings. I am stupid...help the child identlfy the feeling by echoing..you're telling me you feel stupid...then just let him/her talk...don'y say much.-=-

If a therapist uses "active listening" (which is like a script, and can be infuriating), that's because he's charging by the hour and needs has a method of treatment.

If my husband did that to me, I would be unamused. It would not be loving or conversational.

If I did that to my children, it would not be loving or conversational.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 14, 2014, at 6:32 PM, Lorna Laurie <lorna.laurie@...> wrote:

> use the therapist's method of repeating back for validation

In general, kids assume their feelings *are* valid. Why wouldn't they? Unless a parent undermines the child's confidence. Or a parent is paying more attention to what they expect the child to feel -- like excitement over doing something -- than they are to the child.

It wouldn't be unusual for a child to *occasionally* be confused why they don't feel the same as everyone else. But generally it would be very disconnecting to find their feelings were causing *Mom* to need to validate them.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-If a therapist uses "active listening" (which is like a script, and can be infuriating), that's because he's charging by the hour and needs has a method of treatment.-=-

I started to say "needs to keep to a method of treatment" but I edited and botched it.  

Sometimes people go to a therapist because of an advertised "method."  

Sandra

Lorna Laurie

<In our experience, school will do the opposite of raising her self esteem.  My daughter (11 1/2) went to public school through 3rd grade and it degraded her confidence greatly.  There is a lot of judgment from teachers and peers as well as a great deal of pressure to conform.  I have often said that watching her go through school was like watching a beautiful hot air balloon floating through the air and seeing small tears start to form in the fabric.  The longer she was there the bigger those holes became and her little basket started slowly but surely sinking to the ground. >

You have described an experience very similar to our own and I have told people that in school, I watched my children lose a little piece of themselves each year. Fortunately, my children knew that I would support them, and they came to deciding to leave school on their own. And  I loved reading the rest of your story...it really resonated with me. Thanks  : )
 


On Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:33 PM, CASS KOTRBA <caskot@...> wrote:
 
-=- <<I have had flashes of thinking maybe she'd be better off at school as she would be busier and more distracted all day with less chance to dwell.>>
 
In our experience, school will do the opposite of raising her self esteem.  My daughter (11 1/2) went to public school through 3rd grade and it degraded her confidence greatly.  There is a lot of judgment from teachers and peers as well as a great deal of pressure to conform.  I have often said that watching her go through school was like watching a beautiful hot air balloon floating through the air and seeing small tears start to form in the fabric.  The longer she was there the bigger those holes became and her little basket started slowly but surely sinking to the ground. 
 
Fortunately I discovered Unschooling which gave me the confidence to offer her the opportunity to quit school (prior to that I was very concerned about how well we'd do with school at home.  At least home had been a retreat for her & I didn't want to turn that retreat into a mini version of school.).  Being at home in a supportive environment where she has control over social and other aspects of her life has been very healing for her.  She used to say a lot of self deprecating things but over the past year and a half she has remade her image in her own mind.  She loves her new identity as a "computer geek" and gamer girl.  She sports bright pink hair and that is also a great source of pride for her.
 
About a month ago we went to the mall.  There is a clothing store there that "the cool girls" shop at and she usually likes to hit that store first.  We drove an hour and a half over windy mountain roads to get there and when we went into the store there was a gal cleaning nail polish off of the floor with a chemical that was pretty smelly.  We shopped around & picked out a couple of things but Jade seemed really down and was not into it.  While we were checking out I looked over at her and she was as white as a ghost, looking like she was about to pass out.  She sat on the floor to wait for me and suddenly her face flushed bright red.  She felt horrible, was confused and discombobulated and wanted to go home.  I suggested we sit in the food court for awhile and see if it would pass. 
 
While we sat I talked to her about other stores she might want to go into and things she might want to buy.  She said she was not up for it.  Then I asked her about a minecraft video she had been talking about earlier.  The change that came over her was priceless to witness.  She suddenly seemed to remember "oh yeah... I'm Sweetiepie1011!  I have pink hair and a fabulous new life and identity."  Within a couple of minutes her coloring returned to normal and she was ready to roll.  I believe that part of her feeling yucky was due to the car ride and the yucky smell but mostly it was because she got sucked into that vortex of negative emotions that school had created in her.  Remembering that she had evolved into someone else and didn't care about those girls from school anymore pulled her right back out of it. 
 
It has been a wonderful thing to see her balloon starting to soar again.  It took some time, love and support but now she thinks she is awesome.  She still has some insecurities, to be sure, but fortunately we have time for her to work through those, as well.  So I think you guys are on the right track.  Love her up and give her time to heal.  It's hard to know what effect schooling has had on your daughter's psyche but for sure unschooling will help!!
-Cass


Lorna Laurie

<Play that by ear - some people find it valuable, others find it dismissive, or otherwise irritating. >
I agree with this. It was invaluable for my son, but potentially would frustrate my daughter, now that you mention it.  I hadn't thought of that before because it seems natural to respond/listen or a combination of both to each of them as they need.


-=-If a therapist uses "active listening" (which is like a script, and can be infuriating), that's because he's charging by the hour and needs has a method of treatment.-=-
<If I did that to my children, it would not be loving or conversational.>
I referred that idea to describe the listening and reflecting back that I found allowed my son to explore for himself and gave him some space to work through difficult things he needed to express with my loving ear receiving whatever it was. There was no therapist or method involved...it's just what seemed to me what my son needed from me.

<In general, kids assume their feelings *are* valid. Why wouldn't they? Unless a parent undermines the child's confidence. >

There can be influences other than the parents that can affect their confidence. They are in the world, not just at home. And, of course, even the most conscious parent could inadvertently contribute something negative to their child's experience, because it also depends on each particular being and what is ok for some may be difficult.challenging/damaging for another.

<remind her how much I
love her, and to try and distract her. >

Possibly some caution using distraction: I guess some would agree that distraction could direct a child away from negative thoughts, but I always try to think of how something would feel to me. Personally, if I were expressing something and someone distracted me from what I wanted to say,  I would think that they didn't want to hear what I was saying. Maybe there are some other benefits of disctraction that I don't understand.



On Saturday, February 15, 2014 10:48 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 
-=-If a therapist uses "active listening" (which is like a script, and can be infuriating), that's because he's charging by the hour and needs has a method of treatment.-=-

I started to say "needs to keep to a method of treatment" but I edited and botched it.  

Sometimes people go to a therapist because of an advertised "method."  

Sandra


Sandra Dodd

-=-Possibly some caution using distraction: I guess some would agree that distraction could direct a child away from negative thoughts, but I always try to think of how something would feel to me. Personally, if I were expressing something and someone distracted me from what I wanted to say,  I would think that they didn't want to hear what I was saying. Maybe there are some other benefits of disctraction that I don't understand.-=-

Earlier today I was frustrated about a computer problem, and another couple of minor things, and asked my husband if we could go out for dinner instead of cooking here.    I said I just wanted out of the house.

He said "come with me now."  He said it sweetly.  And I said "okay."  We went to a big restaurant supply store I had been to but Keith hadn't, so he could buy a case of small bottles of orange juice for work.  We walked all around the store and looked at all kinds of things.  All we bought was two cases of juice and a measuring cup.  He would've been fine if I had wanted other things, but I didn't need shopping therapy.  It was fun to be out, with him, walking, in a different place. It was a nice day.  He knows me and figured that would make me feel better, and he was right.  It did.

Then we went to Costco and bought things to go with what we already had, and I came home and made food and that was better than going out.  

THAT was distraction.  We've done similar things with our kids their whole lives.  Sometimes it was a video, or inviting a friend of theirs over, or a favorite food, or an outing.  Sometimes it was quick ("Could you help me get something out of the garage?") and sometimes it was an offer of a movie and dinner.  Sometimes they said no, sometimes they said yes, and sometimes just the offer was enough to cheer them up.

It was nothing about interupting.

Sandra

catiamaciel@...

Dear all,

I need help to understand what a downsizing in order to live as a one
income family can mean. Witch are your experiences? Whish where the
major differences when your started living on one income?

Sometimes o feel we can't find more ways to cut the expenses but then,
with a bit of imagination and shared experiences we find our way.

Since our son was born, 4,5 years ago, I?ve manage to work almost 6
months per year, in a part time at the university or research
institute in social sciences. I manage to do almost all the work from
home, at night and when I don?t I pay a baby sitter who receives as
much per hour as I do. I don?t know of any young homeschoolers who can
come to help at home and we don?t have any relatives in the city where
we live. Sometimes I travel to my parent?s city and our son stays with
grandma while I work but it is really a stressful situation and the
trip costs around 200 euros. It is not a sustainable working situation
and to stop with it seems the most reasonable thing to do.

With the economic crisis, it is getting more and more difficult to
find work, even at my level of specialization that is well paid. I
could easily find a job if i was able to work 80 hours per week,
receiving 1000 euros per month, as my colleagues are doing but, that
this is absolutely impossible if i also value my family and want to
unschool. I?m choosing, again, not to work and I need ideas on how to
save more money, how and where to downsize.

What we are already doing:

We have a good deal on telephones, internet and television signature.
It is not a possibility to cut down the net and tv because it is the
same one that goes to the flat we own and rent next door and the
rental contract includes it. To sell that flat will be a good idea but
with the crisis we can?t get the money of the mortgage.

We cook at home, a part of our food comes from the mother in law
vegetable garden, she stores it for us and we pick it up every month,
250 km away. I try to buy products we 50% discount at the organic
shop (still eating almost 60% organic but maybe need to revise that
too).

All our clothes are second hand or gifts. Same for almost all the toys.


we dont travel for holidays unless we go to our poarents houses,
friends houses or free camping and that is perfec as it is.

We live in a 160ft flat, in the city Centre, 3th floor, one room, and
no garage or storage room. I've been angry for a long time with the
house, i wanted a bigger, better house, less noisy, less cold in the
winter and hot in the summer. I'm lucky that I?m in peace with our
living space now, and we are improving it to be cozier, funny, and
comfortable. To move is not a good idea, even if we rent this house,
because it is close to my husband job and because it is really
inexpensive. Any ideas on small flats with children will also be
welcome, especially on how to fit a second child in a one room space.

Talking about the second child, we have a second child and i dont
work, we will not have money to pay for help. This means staying at
home, 10 hours per day, monday to friday, with a 5 years old and a
newborn. I feel like i need to choose between unschooling one child or
have a second one and put the older at school. I'm shure there are
other ways to see this. I always think that to have an au pair helper
could be a good ideia but we dont have a free room...maybe that is a
good motive to moove to a bigger house, even if it is more expensive?

I?m doing a doula training and will do a Ayurveda massage professional
training to try to work in another area. I already have clients enough
to pay the investment. By your experience, is it easy to match
unschooling family life and doula work? I was very sad to ear the
Portuguese doulas saying that conciliation between their work and
family file is very difficult and 95% of then got divorced after
starting working. I cannot believe that this is true all over the
world. I cant even see why this happens in Portugal but, maybe, I?m
not seeing il all?

Thank you for your insights

Cátia Maciel

Sandra Dodd

-=-We live in a 160ft flat, in the city Centre, 3th floor,...

in Lisbon, Portugal, for those who don't know (I don't think it was specified).


-=-... one room, and 
no garage or storage room. I've been angry for a long time with the 
house, i wanted a bigger, better house, less noisy, less cold in the 
winter and hot in the summer. I'm lucky that I?m in peace with our 
living space now, and we are improving it to be cozier, funny, and 
comfortable. To move is not a good idea, even if we rent this house, 
because it is close to my husband job and because it is really 
inexpensive. Any ideas on small flats with children will also be 
welcome, especially on how to fit a second child in a one room space.-=-

You don't have a second child yet, I think, right?

It IS possible for a house to be too small for people to live peacefully together.  
Children get bigger.  They get bigger than parents are, and need a bed as big as the parents.  If the second child is a boy, they could share a room, maybe not peacefully; but if you have a girl, they will need more space and privacy.

Don't deny real factors with unschooling as a reason.  Unschooling isn't magic.

-= By your experience, is it easy to match 
unschooling family life and doula work? I was very sad to ear the 
Portuguese doulas saying that conciliation between their work and 
family file is very difficult and 95% of then got divorced after 
starting working.-=-

Maybe some people who have worked as doulas will contribute ideas here, but if 95% are getting divorced, turn and go the other way.   If you can't afford what you have on one income, then what if your husband leaves?  That's no good.

Could your husband work rurally?  Is it the city itself that's expensive maybe?  Some families whose work was flexible have moved away from expensive cities to parts of the country where houses are very inexpensive.  I don't know what Portugal's version of Oklahoma is.  :-P  (Mostly joking, but not completely.)

Sandra

CASS KOTRBA

=-- I?m doing a doula training and will do a Ayurveda massage professional
training to try to work in another area.-=-
 
I would think that a doula would have unpredictable hours which would be challenging with children.  Prior to having kids I decided to go into real estate because I thought it would have flexible hours that would make it convenient to have kids and still work.  The reality was that I had very little control over the hours when I worked and trying to balance the needs of my clients and my kids was quite stressful. 
 
Massage professional might allow you to have more control over your hours.  Would you travel & provide the service in the customer's home?  You would still have to provide care for your child as most clients would probably frown on having your child present during their relaxing massage.
 
How about if you offered child care services in your home or at the other person's home?  It may be a bonus to other parents that your child would be there, if you present it correctly.  It shows that you are responsible and experienced in child care.  My daughter has a friend (10) with a brother (now 2) & her mother does quite a bit of babysitting, starting when the son was a small baby.  She advertises on Craigslist, if you have a similar online source of advertising in Portugal, and by word of mouth.  As you mentioned, child care professionals do get paid well, it doesn't require any special training or investment and you could include your child & any future children. 
 
My cousin started doing daycare from home when her daughter was 3 as a way to stop paying for child care, spend more time with her daughter and bring in extra income.  Over the years her daycare has evolved into a preschool and now she is looking for commercial space to rent.  She is a wonderful mother and provides excellent care to the children entrusted to her.  She has a waiting list of people wanting to get in.  It has been a good source of steady income for her family.
-Cass

Sommer Urquhart

I will offer an idea to consider regarding being a doula and family life as I have been supporting women as a doula for the last few years. It does call for some creative arrangements if you dont have family/partner to rely on. The work is very unpredictable in the sense that when you get the call you don't know if you will be away from home for 3 hours or 3 days (yes it can happen this way). I am very fortunate in that I live in an area where there is a very supportive community of doulas and many of us work in collectives or partnerships where we may share the client load, provide relief after a certain number of hours or help with child care sharing. If you are able to make connections with other doulas through facebook groups (or start one), you can search doulas in your area and reach out. Birth work is amazing and very emotional. Covering childcare while you are at a birth is one aspect, another thing is the recovery time that you often need in the form of sleep, debriefing or whatever you need to do to process your experiences. Having a community of support is crucial as is having a supportive partner.

Blessings
Sommer