<keznco@...>

Hi all. I have posted on this list a few times sporadically over the years. I'm from Australia and have 3 children- 8, 5 and toddler. We moved towns last year, and when we moved  I convinced my partner to let me try unschooling, rather than enrol the eldest 2 kids in a new school. It took a lot of convincing but in the end he agreed to a "trial". The unschooling experience was truly a mixed bag. I saw lots of positives and was fascinated by my kids ideas and conversations. My partner was unfortunately quite critical and skeptical. He had a hard time with the kids using so much technology at home. He's self employed with a flexible work schedule so he would pop home often unannounced, and would say things like "Shouldn't they be doing something real? Not playing games all day?" (They wouldn't be playing games all day, I should add. But it seemed that way to him.) Also, he would threaten the kids that if they didn't improve their behaviour they would have to return to school. It felt like with these threats hanging overhead and the constant reference to it being a trial, rather than a proper commitment, it was difficult to be joyful. So after only a short period- 2 months or so- I felt like I had made a bad decision. My partner said one night, I know you really want to do this but I think it's just adding more stress to our lives and I think we should enrol the kids into the new school. So I reluctantly agreed. 

 They have now completed two terms at the school and I'm sad to say they are very unhappy there. They didn't mind their previous school at the old town, and were happy enough to go, few complaints. But at this school they are utterly miserable. They have been quite articulate in explaining why, and I have tried to improve what I can for them by being involved in the school as much as possible, communicating a lot with the teachers etc, but I haven't seen any improvement. It's breaking my heart hearing and seeing the anxiety over the weekend in the lead up to school, they've even been tearful at times. My partner agrees that it's no way to spend a childhood, feeling so miserable, but I don't think he would agree to give unschooling another try. He keeps assuring them school will get better/easier, but that's not the experience the kids are having at all, and they're feeling quite angry at their dad for promising that.

 I am sorry to bring schoolish chat to the list, but I hope it's clear by the end of my email that I'm not looking for ways to help make school better for my kids. Rather, I would love to hear from any families who attempted unschooling more than once before it became a long term "success"? Would it be damaging for kids to "back and forth" between school and unschool? I would like to go back to  unschooling but not be so hasty to determine it's not working. I would like to ask DP to give it longer and I'd tweak things to make home more fun/work better, I think. Or do you think it's unfair to even consider unschooling again so soon after the last time? I don't want to jerk the kids around. What is a reasonable timeframe to broach this topic with DP again? I fear he may roll his eyes and say "Not again!" I don't want to do it if he is unsupportive and unhappy but also I want my kids to be happy. 

<plaidpanties666@...>

Easing in to unschooling is often better than jumping in with both feet - in this case, it wasn't the kids who were confused, necessarily, but your partner. He got to see the "worst" of unschooling without any indicators that it was better than school. 


Make a compromise for the next school year/term (I don't know how that works in Australia) - the kids tried school and it wasn't a great experience, so you could try homeschooling. Something "with more structure" than unschooling so your partner isn't so panicked about it, and he agrees to back off and give it "a fair chance" - two months isn't enough for any kind of progress.

Do a bunch of research into different homeschool methods, materials, and curricula so he doesn't get the impression you're just winging it - have a plan and a couple backup plans (most homeschoolers find their first choice method or curriculum isn't perfect and need to make changes). Plan to need to prove yourself and your methods to your husband - read the "curriculum" and "checklist" pages at Sandra's site for some ideas in that regard, so you're not stuck with worksheets, but also realize that something like worksheets might be enough to get him to calm down - just like if you lived someplace where you needed to provide documentation. It's up to you to reassure him that you're doing right by his children. Since they've had a rough school experience, they may be more cooperative in terms of jumping through those kinds of hoops than they would have been previously. 

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/checklists


Sandra Dodd

Are you in touch with Australian unschoolers? Not the wild political/dietary-magic set, but those who read this discussion? :-)

That would help.

In case you weren't aware, there will be three Always Learning LIVE events in Australia in March. With kids in school, it might not be so easy to attend, but maybe part of one, if they're not too far.

If you're near Cairns, there's a little gathering, not a symposium, but you could meet some other people, early the second week of March.

http://alliveaustralia.blogspot.com

Sandra

<keznco@...>

Thanks. I do live someplace I need to provide documentation of learning. I'd also keep a journal this time around, noting down the cool conversations we have, because there are so many. We have 4 terms per year here in Australia, around 2.5 months per term. So do you think I should ask him to consider a full year commitment? I don't know what a reasonable timeframe is, to be fair to everyone. I'm only in the pondering stage right now, I don't want to rush anything. I'm just trying to come up with a bit of a game plan in my mind so that if and when I do approach DP I will feel confident and positive.


I used to be part of a couple of great Aussie unschooling groups on Facebook but am taking some off Facebook at the moment. Years ago, I was probably part of the political unschooling group, but have mellowed a lot since then :-) I'll think about reactivating my Facebook so I can join those groups again.A friend is  going to the unschooling symposium in Melbourne this year and I would dearly love to go but can't afford the tickets or accommodation unfortunately. The great thing is that I can get the executive summary from my friend, which is better than nothing :-)

Jo Isaac

==I do live someplace I need to provide documentation of learning. ==

That is every state except Vic - but the level of detail you need to provide varies depending on state - whereabouts are you? (We are in Adelaide). It isn't that hard to satisfy requirements, either way.

Sandra said "Are you in touch with Australian unschoolers? Not the wild political/dietary-magic set, but those who read this discussion? :-)"

So - i'm one of those - who read this discussion (not a wild political dietary-magic one!) - if you do go back on Facebook, I suggest joining Unschooling Info Australia and Radical Unschoolers Australia. There are some other groups  that call themselves unschooling and are Australian, but they aren't good - they are more 'anything goes and we'll call it unschooling' groups ;)


Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 8, 2014, at 5:18 AM, keznco@... wrote:

Rather than focusing on unschooling, focus on what you want unschooling for. What do you want to use unschooling for?

Maybe something like "Create a joyful learning experience for my kids AND support my husband in feeling comfortable that they're learning."

They're his kids too :-) And he's understandably worried. Worried especially since it's out of his control.

What are his fears? What would he like to see? What will help him feel more comfortable?

Joyce

<annmariehorsley1@...>

=================
Do a bunch of research into different homeschool methods, materials, and curricula so he doesn't get the impression you're just winging it - have a plan and a couple backup plans (most homeschoolers find their first choice method or curriculum isn't perfect and need to make changes). Plan to need to prove yourself and your methods to your husband - read the "curriculum" and "checklist" pages at Sandra's site for some ideas in that regard, so you're not stuck with worksheets, but also realize that something like worksheets might be enough to get him to calm down - just like if you lived someplace where you needed to provide documentation.
================

In Australia, play-based learning has been gaining a lot of traction in primary schools, particularly the approach advocated by Kathy Walker. Most of it aligns very nicely with unschooling. She advocates very strongly for using children's interests as the predominant means for learning then the adult expanding, scaffolding and supporting further learning based on those interests (teachers are not to predetermine topics weeks/months/years in advance which is what has typically happened). She also promotes investigative play-based experiences (and articulates very nicely in educational terms/educationese why play is so important for children's learning) and a properly integrated curriculum so that traditional 'subjects' like Maths and English are learned in context. One other aspect of her approach which is aligned with unschooling is the idea that children develop at their own pace when they are developmentally ready and that trying to force them to do something they're not ready for is unhelpful and can be detrimental to their progress.


If you are looking for something as a bridge between the structure of school and unschooling, and a way to make your husband feel more at ease with what you're doing at home, then it could be a starting point. My husband was uncertain about homeschooling and using a play-based learning approach (with a view to easing in to unschooling) is proving incredibly helpful.


I also used the curriculum page on Sandra's site to write an overall 'curriculum' at the start of this year, outlining goals for the year. That was fantastic for my husband as he felt like I had a plan and wasn't just winging it.


Ann-Marie



---In [email protected], wrote:

Easing in to unschooling is often better than jumping in with both feet - in this case, it wasn't the kids who were confused, necessarily, but your partner. He got to see the "worst" of unschooling without any indicators that it was better than school. 


Make a compromise for the next school year/term (I don't know how that works in Australia) - the kids tried school and it wasn't a great experience, so you could try homeschooling. Something "with more structure" than unschooling so your partner isn't so panicked about it, and he agrees to back off and give it "a fair chance" - two months isn't enough for any kind of progress.

Do a bunch of research into different homeschool methods, materials, and curricula so he doesn't get the impression you're just winging it - have a plan and a couple backup plans (most homeschoolers find their first choice method or curriculum isn't perfect and need to make changes). Plan to need to prove yourself and your methods to your husband - read the "curriculum" and "checklist" pages at Sandra's site for some ideas in that regard, so you're not stuck with worksheets, but also realize that something like worksheets might be enough to get him to calm down - just like if you lived someplace where you needed to provide documentation. It's up to you to reassure him that you're doing right by his children. Since they've had a rough school experience, they may be more cooperative in terms of jumping through those kinds of hoops than they would have been previously. 

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/checklists


Greg and Kirsty Harriman

Just on the play based learning thing. I am in Australia too. My experience with this and the general vibe wrt play-based  learning is that its just another name for sneaking in academics when the kids are having fun and “hey they don’t even realise it! “ (I am not a proponent).  I don’t believe any parent who adheres to schooly education would tolerate pure play for pure play’s sake. It would need to be proven that there are very fun ways to learn academics and that by having fun they will learn (which is true and IS aligned with unschooling but in this case its motivated by a bunch of hidden agendas). Its couched very nicely to appeal to the mainstream.
 
I might be off the mark here but that’s my impression. Lots of scared parents do well with lovely play based talk (I am not saying your husband is scared just parents in general who send their kids to school who are scared to take them out because they don’t see any other option). At least that’s been what I have noticed in the community where I live. I am the only homeschooler here where I live who isn’t using a curriculum and who is learning how to let go and live into the unschooling philosophy.
(I just want to add that I too am a scared parent at the moment... but that’s not because I am scared about the lack in academics. That’s the least of my worries. My big fear is allowing technology into our lives and the power that it is having which is the subject of whole different thread).
 
Also, just as an aside. I bought Rue Kreams’ book from the US (it was $32 Aus) and its been worth every cent as far as getting my husband on board with this unschooling journey we are now on. My husband read it and is a complete convert to the unschooling philosophy. Its had my pretty awe struck to be honest as he has been as strict as me wrt sugar and tv and such. Now he’s the strong one helping ME to let go. Go figure! I recommend it if your husband is willing to read it (we had an agreement that if he read that then I would read one of his business coaching books! I have yet to live up to my side of the bargain on that one)
 
 
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:42 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] RE: Back & forthing, school & unschooling
 
 

=================
Do a bunch of research into different homeschool methods, materials, and curricula so he doesn't get the impression you're just winging it - have a plan and a couple backup plans (most homeschoolers find their first choice method or curriculum isn't perfect and need to make changes). Plan to need to prove yourself and your methods to your husband - read the "curriculum" and "checklist" pages at Sandra's site for some ideas in that regard, so you're not stuck with worksheets, but also realize that something like worksheets might be enough to get him to calm down - just like if you lived someplace where you needed to provide documentation.
================

In Australia, play-based learning has been gaining a lot of traction in primary schools, particularly the approach advocated by Kathy Walker. Most of it aligns very nicely with unschooling. She advocates very strongly for using children's interests as the predominant means for learning then the adult expanding, scaffolding and supporting further learning based on those interests (teachers are not to predetermine topics weeks/months/years in advance which is what has typically happened). She also promotes investigative play-based experiences (and articulates very nicely in educational terms/educationese why play is so important for children's learning) and a properly integrated curriculum so that traditional 'subjects' like Maths and English are learned in context. One other aspect of her approach which is aligned with unschooling is the idea that children develop at their own pace when they are developmentally ready and that trying to force them to do something they're not ready for is unhelpful and can be detrimental to their progress.


If you are looking for something as a bridge between the structure of school and unschooling, and a way to make your husband feel more at ease with what you're doing at home, then it could be a starting point. My husband was uncertain about homeschooling and using a play-based learning approach (with a view to easing in to unschooling) is proving incredibly helpful.

 

I also used the curriculum page on Sandra's site to write an overall 'curriculum' at the start of this year, outlining goals for the year. That was fantastic for my husband as he felt like I had a plan and wasn't just winging it.

 

Ann-Marie



---In [email protected], wrote:

Easing in to unschooling is often better than jumping in with both feet - in this case, it wasn't the kids who were confused, necessarily, but your partner. He got to see the "worst" of unschooling without any indicators that it was better than school.


Make a compromise for the next school year/term (I don't know how that works in Australia) - the kids tried school and it wasn't a great experience, so you could try homeschooling. Something "with more structure" than unschooling so your partner isn't so panicked about it, and he agrees to back off and give it "a fair chance" - two months isn't enough for any kind of progress.

Do a bunch of research into different homeschool methods, materials, and curricula so he doesn't get the impression you're just winging it - have a plan and a couple backup plans (most homeschoolers find their first choice method or curriculum isn't perfect and need to make changes). Plan to need to prove yourself and your methods to your husband - read the "curriculum" and "checklist" pages at Sandra's site for some ideas in that regard, so you're not stuck with worksheets, but also realize that something like worksheets might be enough to get him to calm down - just like if you lived someplace where you needed to provide documentation. It's up to you to reassure him that you're doing right by his children. Since they've had a rough school experience, they may be more cooperative in terms of jumping through those kinds of hoops than they would have been previously.

http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum.html
http://sandradodd.com/checklists

 

Lisa Celedon

<<Rather than focusing on unschooling, focus on what you want unschooling for. What do you want to use unschooling for?

Maybe something like "Create a joyful learning experience for my kids AND support my husband in feeling comfortable that they're learning."

They're his kids too :-) And he's understandably worried. Worried especially since it's out of his control.>>

When I first started talking to my husband about homeschooling, and unschooling, he was uncomfortable with the idea.  He's not one to speak his mind much, so I don't know what exactly he felt about it, but it wasn't good.  And there was a lot of tension between us about it, for the first few months that I was reading more on this list.  
We had a brief conversation last september about preschool. I told him that I wanted to homeschool this year, but that I was willing to let that go if it made him unhappy.  He was quiet for a long time and finally said he wanted our son to get his needs met- but how that happened wasn't as important.  It wasn't a yes, but it wasn't a no. 

In the last few months, I've really made an effort to make HIS life better.  I had been really focused on making the kid's life better, and mine, and I'd forgotten about him.  I focused on how grateful I am that he's willing to be our sole source of income so I can be home, and tons of other things I'm grateful for.  I started making more effort to keep the house less cluttered and keep up with the dishes (those things cause him stress).  I reorganized the kid's stuff because he was unhappy with all their toys in the living room.  I've made an effort to encourage and support him in his interests.  I encourage and support him in spending time with his friends instead of expecting him to be home to help me with the kids or the housework.  I'm sweet to him.  I pick up special things for him that show I care and pay attention - and I do it often.  I want him to feel the love and abundance and joy and sparkles too- I wanted him to know, there's something in it for him.  It's not *just* about the kids having a better learning experience than they would at school - it's about us as a family having a happier, more connected, joyful life.  I want that for him too.

Lately my husband is less stressed, more happy and kind and patient more often with the kids, and, this part makes me giddy:
This afternoon he went to a family party.  I didn't go because I'm a little under the weather.  He was late coming home and he told me that his parents and brother confronted him about not sending our son to preschool.  He detailed the conversation to me, and every word he said made my heart warmer and warmer and practically bursting.  This guy is a middle child and rarely speaks out, especially to his family.  And here he was, firmly stating our decision, and saying things I never even knew he was thinking about what he wants for our kids, and wow.  I seriously fell in love all over again tonight.   

I mostly had stopped talking about unschooling, though it's come up a little more lately. When he expressed a thank you about something I did, or seemed especially happy about something, I occasionally dropped a line like, "yeah, reading all that unschooling stuff is really helping me do better by everyone."  To show the connection between the changes we're feeling in our family, and 'that unschooling stuff.'  

I suggest spending the rest of the school year making life as happy as you can. Do what you can to make life easier for your kids in school, and for your husband.  Accept the possibility right now in your mind that they may have to keep going to school, and relax about it - not as a way of giving up, but as a way to find peace, so you can be soft and happy.  Smile lots, find things to be happy about.  Be positive. Be sweet and considerate of your husband. Keep reading and learning about how to unschool well, but don't talk about it right now.  Don't keep pointing out your fears about the kids being in school, or how unhappy they are there (trust that he loves them enough to see it too).  You want him to give you a fair trial for unschooling, so give him a fair trial for school.  If your home is a safe, happy place to be, and your husband feels good about his home - and sees that school makes his kids unhappy, and that home is refuge for them, he might feel more willing to give unschooling another go.

Lisa C

<oregano3@...>

Do you think you can make having the kids at home work significantly better for your family now? 

 

It sounds like your husband is pretty set against unschooling.   Do you know what that's about for him?  Is it that he doesn't want the kids to be different, or he thinks they'll end up with no job, or he thinks they've got to learn to endure hard times, or he doesn't like to have no kid-free time at home, or he believes teachers know best or ...  There are possibly unrecognised fears and beliefs playing a significant part in his life with you and the kids.  


If you don't think conversation with him about it is likely to be helpful, reflect on the questions yourself.  Are there things you can do to address any fears of his?  Sometimes extra understanding and generosity in a sensitive area will help.  If you can make progress in any area, it will shift the situation that you've been dealing with.  From there you'll be able to reassess again, make some changes again and so on.


Look to make positive steps, rather than to make unschooling happen in your home.  Another type of homeschooling may be a more doable step for your family, than unschooling is at the moment.  


:)

Debbie


Kerrie Thomas

Thanks everyone for your replies, especially to you Lisa. A lot of what you said rings true for me too. My partner gets stressed with mess, and when me/our family is unorganised ( I have struggled with being neat and organised my whole life, this has been an ongoing frustration for him). One of his biggest bugbears is when the evening routine doesn't go smoothly, and the kids bedtime ends up later than usual. He has a real need for peace and quiet in the evenings, and likes spending time alone with me, debriefing about the day etc, once they're in bed. It seems strange after reading a lot on radical unschooling and relaxed (or lack of) bedtimes to consider that earlier bedtimes could actually be helpful for us. I'll make more of an effort to make home a relaxing place that everyone wants to be.

My longterm goal *is* to have a happier family, who are connected. That includes my partner as well as the kids. Right now there is a lot of unhappiness, different reasons for everyone. Rather than focusing on unschooling as the goal, I will focus on making a more peaceful, happy home as the goal for now.

What can I actually say to my kids though, that takes their unhappiness seriously and helps them get through school in the interim? I don't want to say "it will get better, hang in there". As it might not. I also don't want to mention the possibility of homeschooling in future in case that doesn't happen. Some well-meaning people have told them things like "all kids complain about school, life isn't fair". That doesn't feel right to me. So far I've been empathising, eg "Sorry you're finding it hard. What can I do to help you/make it easier?" I feel like my token efforts aren't having much impact.

I hope it's ok to ask that even though it's school-related. I understand if you remove that section of my post. This is a long-shot, but are there any groups for people who are not actually unschooling but would like to be, and have to work *with* school for now? I would love to talk with others in my position about what I can do within my limitations but don't want upset anyone by bringing schoolish chat here.

Sent from my iPhone

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>What can I actually say to my kids though, that takes their unhappiness seriously and helps them get through school in the interim?<<


You could say "I'm sorry, I don't know what else to do right now." 
It doesn't fix anything, but nothing you say is going to fix anything, and it has the advantage of being true. You're stuck and haven't figured out how to get un-stuck yet. And there is something to be said for commiserating - they know you feel for them, even if you don't know what to do about it. 

Do what you can to take the pressure off them and make home a haven of restfulness and calm. Do what you can to brighten up their days. 

Sandra Dodd

-=-Do what you can to take the pressure off them and make home a haven of restfulness and calm. Do what you can to brighten up their days. -=-

Yes.  Try in moments.  Your original question seemed about LARGE things, but kids' lives are made better in small things.  Change their sheets, make cookies, smile, laugh, hug.  If everyone's life had extra incidents of sweetness, it could be like paradise.

<lisajceledon@...>

<<( I have struggled with being neat and organised my whole life, this has been an ongoing frustration for him). >>


Me too, and my husband has often gotten frustrated about it too. 

These links have really helped me a lot:

http://sandradodd.com/service

http://sandradodd.com/gratitude/


I am still working on it - I realized I couldn't go from being a person who is very disorganized and doesnt clean or cook or pick up often to being one who is and does all the time (or even most of the time) overnight. I prioritize the things that stress him out, and get to other things when I can.  It's been a slow process, but I have found a lot of joy and satisfaction in it, and I will keep getting better.  

I've also found that as I've made more of an effort in other ways- being sweet and loving to him, and generous and supportive, and finding ways to help him feel abundance in our lives, he's gotten a lot more patient with me and my slow process of learning how to keep the house tidy.

And last night he did the laundry because I wasn't feeling well (and even though I wasn't feeling well, I did what I was able to do, which was dishes with hot steamy water that helped my congestion a bit).  I heard him putting away clothes and then cursing and kicking toys around in the playroom (I haven't picked it up in a few days) but then as he came out I heard him in the hallway take a deep breath, sigh a bit, and when he came into the living room where the boys and I were cuddled on the couch with a movie, his tone and body language were soft and pleasant.

That wouldn't have been the case even a few months ago.

And picking up the playroom is definitely something I will work on finishing before he gets home from work today.


Lisa C

Sandra Dodd

-=-I also don't want to mention the possibility of homeschooling in future in case that doesn't happen. Some well-meaning people have told them things like "all kids complain about school, life isn't fair". That doesn't feel right to me. -=-

This might help a bit:

If you think of housework as a struggle, and your husband is critical, and it's an underlying stress, maybe talk to him about putting the kids first.  Kids have toys and hobbies.  To banish them and their stuff to their own rooms isn't nice.   Kids make messes, they're learning, they're growing.  You can have an ever-cleaner house as they get older.

When you do things, look for the joy and service in them, and your life will be softer and more meaningful.


Sandra