Sandra Dodd

Because of another discussion somewhere else, I went to find some links about former Waldorf families.  Didn't find them, so it was probably a folder on a forum that's no longer around.  That's fine. 

But looking for it, I found some things by google I had never seen before where people were citing me or saying I was crazy or scary or whatever...  One blogger liked my stuff but was afraid, so some others were commenting that she should feel fine about ignoring me.  

One of the comments said this:   

-=-We unschool to a point. What I mean is I require Math,Reading and English to be done with a set curriculum. After those are finished, the rest of the day their time is their’s to do what the want. -=-

Quite frequently someone will come along and in a side note or e-mail to me, or in an intro to a forum, write something like "We are a Waldorf/Montessori/Unschooling-inspired family, and..."

And I think.... So you want to be cool.  And you're afraid to let go of anything you thinkg might be the one magic thing.

Those folks don't want to examine unschooling's underpinnings.  They want to be told they're cool, and they're awesome parents.  

I'm going to cut some things I found on google—it's out there everywhere.  It's not good unschooling.

-=-leaning towards unschooling with Steiner lifestyle ...-=-

Unschooling/Montessori/Waldorf Steiner - Pinterest

(the projects are cool, but the name of the collection is evidence for my momentary proof)

Another pinterest collection, similar designation.

(this one came up with a photo of me on the first page, so I like it best. :-))

I think there are a points where Waldorf and Unschooling agree .... and ran the gammut with Montessori, a bit of Charlotte Mason, ecclectic, ...


eh...
those were just in the first page and some.  It's everywhere.

So Montesorri recommends real-world (albeit real non-electronic world) and not fantasy?
And Steiner insists on fantasy and whimsey and silk scarves and gnomes (or elves or leprechauns or whatever they are...).

For people to say they do a combination of those seems perhaps a way for them to say "We're going to do something cooler tha public school."  Shorthand.  Talismans to hold up to friends and relatives, maybe.

Sandra




BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I agree Sandra. I have seen a bunch of people call themselves  warldorf-montessori-unschoolers or some other combination.
Some that I know personally are definitely not unschoolers at all but insist they are and are actually quite  offended if you say anything or question their ideas.

I have read a lot about Montessori as my mom has training in Montessori , has been a  Montessori teacher and translated Maria;s books and other materials in Brazil.
I have read many discussions with my mom about Montessori and there are things that I like about it.

What people do not know is that Maria Montessori implemented the method while working with mentally impaired children and then was called to open schools for children that had no one to look over them. Kids that were left alone because both parents ( if alive) were  working many hours and this kids were poor an neglected.
She does say that parents are the best for children but she herself sent her son to be raised by other people and did not raise him at all.
In her schools she has facilitators that were supposed to be there to just help children and not teach not trained teachers like today.

There is no reason to implement Montessori if you want to unschooling your kids. They are naturally exploring in a rich environment with the parents as facilitators and  not teachers. 
Montessori materials were necessary as those kids has nothing and really nobody to watch over them. 

Today there are so many resources available !   

John Holt mentions Maria Montessori in his books, I can see why! It is interesting reading their books. Today we have wonderful books, discussions like this, books that are amazing from people that have real unschooled kids! Parents that did it and did it well.
Both Maria and John Holt never had kids ( well Maria had but she did not raise the child) . We are so lucky!



 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: Always Learning <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 7:33 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] NOT unschooling, but they think they are

 
Because of another discussion somewhere else, I went to find some links about former Waldorf families.  Didn't find them, so it was probably a folder on a forum that's no longer around.  That's fine. 

But looking for it, I found some things by google I had never seen before where people were citing me or saying I was crazy or scary or whatever...  One blogger liked my stuff but was afraid, so some others were commenting that she should feel fine about ignoring me.  

One of the comments said this:   

-=-We unschool to a point. What I mean is I require Math,Reading and English to be done with a set curriculum. After those are finished, the rest of the day their time is their’s to do what the want. -=-

Quite frequently someone will come along and in a side note or e-mail to me, or in an intro to a forum, write something like "We are a Waldorf/Montessori/Unschooling-inspired family, and..."

And I think.... So you want to be cool.  And you're afraid to let go of anything you thinkg might be the one magic thing.

Those folks don't want to examine unschooling's underpinnings.  They want to be told they're cool, and they're awesome parents.  

I'm going to cut some things I found on google—it's out there everywhere.  It's not good unschooling.

-=-leaning towards unschooling with Steiner lifestyle ...-=-

Unschooling/Montessori/Waldorf Steiner - Pinterest

(the projects are cool, but the name of the collection is evidence for my momentary proof)

http://www.pinterest.com/girl_from_nara/montessorri-waldorf-steiner-and-unschooling-inspir/
Another pinterest collection, similar designation.

http://www.pinterest.com/lynaj/playtime-waldorf-montessori-unschooling-style/
(this one came up with a photo of me on the first page, so I like it best. :-))

I think there are a points where Waldorf and Unschooling agree .... and ran the gammut with Montessori, a bit of Charlotte Mason, ecclectic, ...


eh...
those were just in the first page and some.  It's everywhere.

So Montesorri recommends real-world (albeit real non-electronic world) and not fantasy?
And Steiner insists on fantasy and whimsey and silk scarves and gnomes (or elves or leprechauns or whatever they are...).

For people to say they do a combination of those seems perhaps a way for them to say "We're going to do something cooler tha public school."  Shorthand.  Talismans to hold up to friends and relatives, maybe.

Sandra






chris ester

I have to admit that I take the easier road... When the person who declares that she is an unschooler talks about HER favorite curriculum and how the kids would sit around with computers all day if allowed to do "nothing"... I keep my mouth shut, because I spent a number of years trying to get people to change very maladaptive, damaging behavior (as a foster care social worker) usually to no avail and I am too tired to try to teach those who do not want to learn....  

I try not to feel smug, I try to focus on the joy and peace that we have in our family.  I don't claim to BE a radical unschooler, I claim to be striving toward that ideal.  I am not perfect, I screw up sometimes, but I apologize and try again and do better.  

I love that this group discusses ideas.  I love that this group contributes to my thinking about what I do as a parent.  Thank you Sandra.
chris


On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 8:33 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

Because of another discussion somewhere else, I went to find some links about former Waldorf families.  Didn't find them, so it was probably a folder on a forum that's no longer around.  That's fine. 


But looking for it, I found some things by google I had never seen before where people were citing me or saying I was crazy or scary or whatever...  One blogger liked my stuff but was afraid, so some others were commenting that she should feel fine about ignoring me.  

One of the comments said this:   

-=-We unschool to a point. What I mean is I require Math,Reading and English to be done with a set curriculum. After those are finished, the rest of the day their time is their’s to do what the want. -=-

Quite frequently someone will come along and in a side note or e-mail to me, or in an intro to a forum, write something like "We are a Waldorf/Montessori/Unschooling-inspired family, and..."

And I think.... So you want to be cool.  And you're afraid to let go of anything you thinkg might be the one magic thing.

Those folks don't want to examine unschooling's underpinnings.  They want to be told they're cool, and they're awesome parents.  

I'm going to cut some things I found on google—it's out there everywhere.  It's not good unschooling.

-=-leaning towards unschooling with Steiner lifestyle ...-=-

Unschooling/Montessori/Waldorf Steiner - Pinterest

(the projects are cool, but the name of the collection is evidence for my momentary proof)

Another pinterest collection, similar designation.

(this one came up with a photo of me on the first page, so I like it best. :-))

I think there are a points where Waldorf and Unschooling agree .... and ran the gammut with Montessori, a bit of Charlotte Mason, ecclectic, ...


eh...
those were just in the first page and some.  It's everywhere.

So Montesorri recommends real-world (albeit real non-electronic world) and not fantasy?
And Steiner insists on fantasy and whimsey and silk scarves and gnomes (or elves or leprechauns or whatever they are...).

For people to say they do a combination of those seems perhaps a way for them to say "We're going to do something cooler tha public school."  Shorthand.  Talismans to hold up to friends and relatives, maybe.

Sandra





<anna.black@...>

Waldorf and Montessori have very little in common.  In many ways they
are diametrically opposed.  I know this because I'm a trained
Montessori teacher and was always being asked to explain the
differences.  I can't see how you can have
Montessori/Waldorf/unschooling, it makes no sense at all.

Classic Montessori theory does share some principles with unschooling,
certainly to a much greater degree than the prescriptive,
adult-controlled, arbitrarily-scheduled Waldorf, but still, as someone
trained in the Montessori philosophy, I am dismantling unhelpful
assumptions and beliefs all the time as part of my deschooling.

Someone steeped in Waldorf I think would have even more deschooling to
do than a mainstream teacher/educated parent.

Anna
Abi - 6
Evie - 4

<anna.black@...>

Waldorf and Montessori have very little in common.  In many ways they
are diametrically opposed.  I know this because I'm a trained
Montessori teacher and was always being asked to explain the
differences.  I can't see how you can have
Montessori/Waldorf/unschooling, it makes no sense at all.

Classic Montessori theory does share some principles with unschooling,
certainly to a much greater degree than the prescriptive,
adult-controlled, arbitrarily-scheduled Waldorf, but still, as someone
trained in the Montessori philosophy, I am dismantling unhelpful
assumptions and beliefs all the time as part of my deschooling.

Someone steeped in Waldorf I think would have even more deschooling to
do than a mainstream teacher/educated parent.

Anna
Abi - 6
Evie - 4

Clare Kirkpatrick

I am one of a small admin team on a uk unschooling fb group. We get an enormous number of requests to join from people who think unschooling is synonymous with home education. It is frustrating as there is clear info in the about page (the group is closed but anyone can read the about page). I know the problem of people not reading group info is not new to you all, but your post made me think of all these people who just see the word ' unschooling' and think it means 'not sending your child to school'. These new-to-home-ed parents are not so worrying as those who profess to unschooling and advise others on how to do it.


Sent from Samsung Mobile

Vicki Dennis

I do believe that when John Holt coined the term "unschooling" he did, indeed, mean simply "not sending your child to school".   But that was 30 years ago and the definition has  become more precise. Holt, himself, was not rigid in self interpretation of new ideas.

I agree that it is far more worrisome to have self proclaimed experts advising how to unschool using particular schedules and curriculum.  Equating unschooling to "school at home" does indeed miss the point.

vicki


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 1:12 AM, Clare Kirkpatrick <clare.kirkpatrick@...> wrote:
 

I am one of a small admin team on a uk unschooling fb group. We get an enormous number of requests to join from people who think unschooling is synonymous with home education. It is frustrating as there is clear info in the about page (the group is closed but anyone can read the about page). I know the problem of people not reading group info is not new to you all, but your post made me think of all these people who just see the word ' unschooling' and think it means 'not sending your child to school'. These new-to-home-ed parents are not so worrying as those who profess to unschooling and advise others on how to do it.


Sent from Samsung Mobile


Pam Sorooshian


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
I do believe that when John Holt coined the term "unschooling" he did, indeed, mean simply "not sending your child to school".   But that was 30 years ago and the definition has  become more precise. Holt, himself, was not rigid in self interpretation of new ideas.

From my reading, I think he did have unschooling in mind in the way we use it now, but he was very very patient with people who used it differently. He seems to have sort of assumed that people who didn't send their kids to school would realize, sooner or later, that doing school at home was a bad idea.

And he was totally on the same (radical) page we are now about things like bedtimes. I mean, he wanted to give kids the right to vote. 

-pam

Tam

I think on the surface Montessori and Waldorf both appeal to parents who want natural, floaty, wooden-toy-filled childhoods for their children. Treasure baskets, wooden letters, mini serving utensils, silk scarves, gnomes. And they hear of unschooling and think it means a philosophy where they the parents get to pick whatever non-school path they want for their child, and it too is then a floaty idea that (they think) can incorporate all the wooden toyed, natural parenting they like.

Tam

Steph Selby

I started out not knowing anything, but knew I wanted something, and thought I had to have something. It's been a journey to become an unschooling family. I didn't want to do school at home, so I sought alternatives.

I read literature on Waldorf, lived near a Waldorf school and many people, I was an acquaintance of, sent their children to the school. Their children were sheltered, sweet, something I thought I wanted. I, personally, love the fantasy, love the colors, the art and found it to be beautiful. But it was too rigid, too planned, and too restrictive, all of which didn't fit our family. I next sought out Montessori, to see how that method would fit us. I made loads and loads of materials, and provided a bountiful atmosphere. I began watching youtube videos, and it turns out there is a correct way of using the materials and they are meant to be used in such a manner and not meant to be used for others. I felt this was limiting bright, creative minds. To me, the methods are in so much opposition, that there isn't a way to be both; they counter one another. The foundation of Waldorf is that a child exists in fantasy until age 6/7, the other believes that a child is solely in an "absorbant mind" meaning they take it in and there is a lack of creativity until age 6/7. To a young mother, this resulted in conflict for me. (And after being with kids for these past 8 years, neither is accurate!) And when I read that people are doing both, I think it's ignorance, and that they haven't delved into the theory of either method.

As far as our family is concerned, the curriculums were all done selfishly for me. It was for me to feel like I was actively, providing this excellent well-rounded atmosphere. In fact, I spent more time making things, reading things, etc. than actually spending time being WITH my kids. They snubbed their noses at most of what I made, and at first I was determined to make something else, something else that would entice them. Concurrently, our daughter would ask very in-depth questions about the body, and my husband would be deeply entrenched answering her questions, reading her books, and quenched her thirst. 

When I read that someone is unschooling in a certain style or adding math/ english, etc. curriculums here and there, I think a few things, 1. that they are in the infancy of unschooling, it has peaked their interest, yet they don't really know much yet, or 2. that they will not let go, or are afraid to. And they may/ may not ever let go or 3. that they do not fully understand it and are trying to define what they are doing to others and/ or themselves. Unfortunately, in all cases, the lines get blurred for newly exposed people. It's simple, a defined unschool is an oxymoron.

Stephanie

I found a cute quote the other day, something like this: "I want to be the perfect parent, but I'm too busy spending the days with my children." 





On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
 


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
I do believe that when John Holt coined the term "unschooling" he did, indeed, mean simply "not sending your child to school".   But that was 30 years ago and the definition has  become more precise. Holt, himself, was not rigid in self interpretation of new ideas.

From my reading, I think he did have unschooling in mind in the way we use it now, but he was very very patient with people who used it differently. He seems to have sort of assumed that people who didn't send their kids to school would realize, sooner or later, that doing school at home was a bad idea.

And he was totally on the same (radical) page we are now about things like bedtimes. I mean, he wanted to give kids the right to vote. 

-pam


Sandra Dodd

-=-As far as our family is concerned, the curriculums were all done selfishly for me. It was for me to feel like I was actively, providing this excellent well-rounded atmosphere. In fact, I spent more time making things, reading things, etc. than actually spending time being WITH my kids.-=-

I like this statement. 

Thoug it was about Montessori materials and such.  I know sometimes unschoolers can do that too, which is why "read a little, try a little" is so vital.

Thank you for sharing your Waldorf and Montessori experiences, Stephanie and others.

Someone I know in person and Holly knew well (mother of boys her age) changed her enthusiastic, heartfelt New Best Method twice a year until her boys were grown.  They had no stability at all, because she was always changing.  It seemed she felt like a good mom when she was seeing the failings of her current method/curriulum/school, and seeing something CLEARLY BETTER that a friend was doing, and changing to something CLEARLY BETTER for her boys.

The boys learned to just go with the turbulent flow, because whether they liked where they were or not, it *was* going to change.  The mother could not settle.  She liked feeling intensely dedicated to making sure that her boys had what was BEST.

Twice, in that series I look back on now with more clarity, they were ABSOLUTELY radical unschoolers, and she LOVED my books and she was SO GLAD to know my kids which made it SO EASY.  But...

But she kept all her household rules and schedules and sheltered her boys from being out without her and kept their outside visits to a mininum because it messed up her house to have guests, and...  soon she had spotted a charter school!   Or Charlotte Mason!  and off she went, to the new place where other mothers would praise her for being a great mom and caring so much about her boys that she had made that change.

I suppose, maybe, some of the people who come to unschooling and complain that they're not "supported" and "encouraged" (when people show them where they can do better) are similarly dependent upon or craving of outside clues to their worth, rather than looking deep into their children's eyes.

Sandra

j_me_russell

I have a mom friend (though our friendship has become a bit strained) who considers herself a "Waldorf Unschooler" because she has her kids at home and has stopped doing any curriculum work with them (and only because she didn't want to put the effort in anymore). She says repeatedly that she doesn't actually like to be with her kids and has no interest "wasting her time" playing with them. They are only allowed wooden/wool/silk toys, zero electronic media, and the Legos they have been gifted (which they ADORE) have been banished from the house.

The mom has now joined the local unschoolers group that we belong to, and we meet at a park most weeks. I am having a hard time not feeling upset about it. Her kids are so hungry for attention, and I end up playing with them (along with my two youngest) the whole time I'm there. I adore them, and we have great fun, but I can see that I am the only adult that actually plays with and engages them, and I get angry and sad when I see her chatting up a storm with any mom she can, ignoring her kids unless I (or another adult) call out and say they need her. I don't really know any other kids who are controlled as much as hers, and their whole situation is so far from what I know (and love) of unschooling. I am on a journey and am learning so much everyday, looking at and letting go of old patterns of thought and action; I mess up lots! But it's still so hard to watch these sweet kids, who so often seem sad.

Thank you for this post, I am hearing more and more stories like this in my area, and I'm not sure how to respond. I apologize for venting here, but I dont have any other safe places to do so now that she is in all of my circles :-/

If anyone has any ideas on how to either shift my attitude or actions around it I would really appreciate hearing them!

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't really know any other kids who are controlled as much as hers, and their whole situation is so far from what I know (and love) of unschooling.-=-

Sometimes people learn from bad examples, too.

If you do like the kids a lot, maybe you could invite the other family over and do very happy unschoolish things, but aim the talk at the other mom.  Like "Look how cool THIS is!  Pam Sorooshian wrote it up" and show them the food coloring trick from here: http://sandradodd.com/strew/tadaa

If enough kids read, you could play apples to apples or something.

If the mom still doesn't want to play with her kids, you could maybe drop just a few little jewels like "But how will they learn?" or "They need you to do these things too, for it to work well."

Sandra

<claire.horsley08@...>

--------Her kids are so hungry for attention, and I end up playing with them (along with my two youngest) the whole time I'm there. I adore them, and we have great fun, but I can see that I am the only adult that actually plays with and engages them,-----------



I think quite a few of us on this list have found ourselves in similar situations, week after week, hanging out with other kids and giving them whatever affection and fun we can. At first I was resentful of this, I couldn't understand why these parents wouldn't want to spend more time with their wonderful, sweet kids. Then I realised ... those parents are not unschoolers (not like we discuss it here). I can't expect them to behave like unschoolers. Pretty simple huh! But that realisation really helped me to understand that no matter how profoundly my life has changed thanks to unschooling, I can't control other parents or flick a switch in their minds so they see what I see.

What I can do is give freely of my time and energy to these kids when I'm with them. I can choose not to spend much time dwelling on others' parenting (other than to observe and see how wonderful unschooling is!). And I can work hard to give my own children a wonderful sparkly life :)


Claire



---In [email protected], <love2bike2live@...> wrote:

I have a mom friend (though our friendship has become a bit strained) who considers herself a "Waldorf Unschooler" because she has her kids at home and has stopped doing any curriculum work with them (and only because she didn't want to put the effort in anymore). She says repeatedly that she doesn't actually like to be with her kids and has no interest "wasting her time" playing with them. They are only allowed wooden/wool/silk toys, zero electronic media, and the Legos they have been gifted (which they ADORE) have been banished from the house.

The mom has now joined the local unschoolers group that we belong to, and we meet at a park most weeks. I am having a hard time not feeling upset about it. Her kids are so hungry for attention, and I end up playing with them (along with my two youngest) the whole time I'm there. I adore them, and we have great fun, but I can see that I am the only adult that actually plays with and engages them, and I get angry and sad when I see her chatting up a storm with any mom she can, ignoring her kids unless I (or another adult) call out and say they need her. I don't really know any other kids who are controlled as much as hers, and their whole situation is so far from what I know (and love) of unschooling. I am on a journey and am learning so much everyday, looking at and letting go of old patterns of thought and action; I mess up lots! But it's still so hard to watch these sweet kids, who so often seem sad.

Thank you for this post, I am hearing more and more stories like this in my area, and I'm not sure how to respond. I apologize for venting here, but I dont have any other safe places to do so now that she is in all of my circles :-/

If anyone has any ideas on how to either shift my attitude or actions around it I would really appreciate hearing them!

j_me_russell

Ooh, I really like the idea of having them over and doing one of those fun experiments! I have had to cut back on the times we have them over just because it is really difficult to be the only engaged adult (especially since I have an adventurous toddler in the mix), but I think if I stage it as "Hey, look at this! Let's do this *with* the kids at my house!" it could set us up for a better time. Thanks!

j_me_russell

Thanks so much, Claire; what a freeing perspective!

I should have added that a big part of the frustration comes from this friend asking me repeatedly for advice and then telling me she doesn't like it (sometimes in a pretty aggressive manner) even though I pretty much have been saying similar stuff for a year. I'm trying to think of it like the way I and my kids learn: if she keeps asking , she must be trying to hear in some way, right?

Sandra Dodd

Claire H:-=- At first I was resentful of this, I couldn't understand why these parents wouldn't want to spend more time with their wonderful, sweet kids. Then I realised ... those parents are not unschoolers (not like we discuss it here). I can't expect them to behave like unschoolers. Pretty simple huh! -=-

Kirby is helping his girlfriend with a four year old who has been largely raised by the grandmother, but is now with them fulltime.   I was there to help for a couple of weeks.  The mom is lacking experience and bonding.  The little girl is GREAT, bright, sweet, cooperative, curious.  The mom would have said "no" about ten times as much as she did if I hadn't been there, I think.  A quick, automatic, sharp "NO, ma'am," about things that wouldn't have hurt anything.  Not many of them, after the first couple of days.   

Kirby is suprised by negativity and arbitrary control.  I think Kirby's good example will help both the others in the situation.  I don't know whether this will be a longterm, rest of Kirby's life thing, or not, but it was very interesting to see how natural things were for Kirby and how awkward for the mom.  Surely I was a factor.  I probably made her very self-conscious, but sometimes, in a way, I don't mind that.

If a mom who is being eye-rolling and dismissive feels that there is a certain witness (present or distant, real or imagined) that will "frown upon her" if she doesn't soften up a bit and at least pretend to be generous and thoughtful, then that's GOOD.  If someone contributes to her conscience or super ego, and it's better for her children that it happened, cool.

Kirby was around unschooling and unschoolers—not talking about it so much as just BEING it.  Then he worked at a gaming store running pokemon games and tournaments, and other tournaments involving collectible cards, often involving younger kids.  And then he taught karate to children.  So he has experience with "schooled kids" too.

I was proud to see how supportive and strong and together he was in the whole situation.

-=-But that realisation really helped me to understand that no matter how profoundly my life has changed thanks to unschooling, I can't control other parents or flick a switch in their minds so they see what I see. 

-=-  (more by Claire H)

Yes.
Kirby can't control his situation, even, but he can set a good example, and maybe help change expectations and habits.


Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Could you invite two or three friends (including her) to do a bookclub-style reading of Pam Larrichia's intro to unschooling? As each one comes, discuss it by e-mail, or over coffee sometimes? Then you can blame Pam, and not have it be personal, or about you vs. that other mom.


Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm trying to think of it like the way I and my kids learn: if she keeps asking , she must be trying to hear in some way, right?-=-

Maybe she thinks if she asks long enough you will have "come to your senses" and stopped spouting that stuff that makes no sense to her!

Pam Sorooshian


On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 1:19 PM, j_me_russell <love2bike2live@...> wrote:
I'm trying to think of it like the way I and my kids learn: if she keeps asking , she must be trying to hear in some way, right?

Maybe catch her interacting positively with her kids and say, "That's the kind of thing I'm talking about - try to do that a lot more."

Sometimes people lack imagination -- they can't imagine how their relationship with their child could be different. Maybe you can help her move toward a better relationship with a series of progressive approximations - a little like the "getting warmer/colder" game, but maybe just with the "you're getting warmer" part.

-pam

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I am glad for the times what I said or did influenced others to do better .

But so you don't get disappointed there will be people who will cut you off ( sorry for being negative) because  they just really want to complain about their kids and how hard it is.
 
Some people feel criticized if you say how you love your kids and if you never complain about them. 

Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Lisa Celedon

<<similarly dependent upon or craving of outside clues to their worth, rather than looking deep into their children' s eyes.>>

That made me teary.  Because it was THIS exact moment in my life, when I made THIS realization, that my entire life changed dramatically, and for the better.

THANK YOU ALL.  I don't know that 'thank you' (even in all caps) even begins to cover it.  

Lisa C

Lisa Celedon

<<=-I'm trying to think of it like the way I and my kids learn: if she keeps asking , she must be trying to hear in some way, right?-=-

Maybe she thinks if she asks long enough you will have "come to your senses" and stopped spouting that stuff that makes no sense to her!>>

Your happiness and joy with your own children (and hers) will speak more to her, when she'd ready to hear, than your words.  Maybe, think of a few key phrases that have really helped you here, so that if and when she asks again, you can shrug and say something really simple.  Something that might make her think. It may never sink in.  I would stop focusing on how to convince her or change her in any way.  Just be an example for her, and her kids. 

And tell her, often, when you're with her, what you've told us about how much you enjoy her children.  Say it in front of them.  They need to hear that about themselves from someone, and it might help her to hear how much her children are valued in someone else's eyes.

Lisa C  

Sandra Dodd

Sometimes it helps (as someone said in here, sort of) to say something glowing about their child. Not in a manipulative way to make the mom feel guilty, but say "I was playing with [Bob] and he was very gentle with my kitten" or "She's such a good artist" or "He was really helpful today" or "I don't know if you know how much she knows about fashion. I was surprised!"

Sandra

j_me_russell

Thanks so much for sharing your good thinking with me, everyone. I have taken away so much to reflect upon, and have been spent the past two days doing just that. The challenges I have in this relationship have become more clear, as have my reasons for staying with it and my motivation for working to support this family.

I am so grateful for the honesty that I find here, for the mirrors that are held up for those of us seeking answers to look into. It occurs to me that support is so often perceived as hand holding, an assuaging of feelings, a reassurance that we are doing just fine. And sometimes that is what support looks like. But this, this here... Honesty: people willing to take the time to notice, and the courage to point out, the snags in our thinking so that we may find clarity and move closer to the relationships we want with our families... This is amazing support.

Thank you.

Karen

>>>>>I should have added that a big part of the frustration comes from this friend asking me repeatedly for advice and then telling me she doesn't like it (sometimes in a pretty aggressive manner) even though I pretty much have been saying similar stuff for a year. I'm trying to think of it like the way I and my kids learn: if she keeps asking , she must be trying to hear in some way, right?<<<<<

I get asked questions sometimes too, and often there seems to be some resentment to the answers I offer. (Maybe it's my delivery.) It has been my experience in these situations that sitting quietly helps. Sometimes I can't help myself and I cringe at something that is said, but mostly I sit quietly. I don't agree or disagree. I give the mom room to come to her own conclusions. I don't see it as my job to convince anyone my answer is more correct than theirs.

I find if I start talking about how great my son is, the mom gets defensive of her perceived need to complain. Same seems to be true if I try to suggest other ways of thinking in that moment.

Then in all other moments I do my best to be the best mom and unschooler I can be - for myself, for my son and for my husband - with the knowledge that my example might give someone some ideas on how to see and try things a bit differently themselves. I am constantly looking for examples to grow myself. I absolutely love it when I see someone do something that I think I'd like to try. Sometimes it's a sweet gesture or phrase. Sometimes it's a cool project or idea.

I try to keep in mind that I learn best when given the room to grow and the trust that I want to do better, and do my best to extend that courtesy to others.

Karen.