<kgharriman1@...>

Sorry for use of word "screens" but the subject space want enough to write them all individually. Our 8 year old daughter had never been to school and hhas always had limits with TV. Since receiving an ipod for christmas along with a whole bunch of barbie movies and games for ipod since then and introducing barbie.com she spends her days and nights moving from her ipod first thing in the morning (skipping breakfast) then to barbie. Com or reading eggs for another couple of hours. Then to the TV for a movie or three for another few hours. Only interrupted by requests to go to the pool which we try to do. How do you know when this activity of TV or ipod or computer is being used excessively (I have a feeling that word isn't the right one as it tells how I feel about it and how conflicted I am) because there's nothing more interesting or sparkly or if its truly a choice that is authentic and not driven by motivations to do with "the is nothing better to do" aka boredom ? We have lots of puzzles/games/craft options/toys like barbies (now) Sylvanian families, a piano and other musical instruments, dress ups etc etc. I have always strewed and tried to provide interesting things from different places. I have this nagging feeling that I am not making life sparkly enough. But maybe she's simply getting her fill of previously heavily restricted choices.

Pam Sorooshian


On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 1:40 AM, <kgharriman1@...> wrote:
I have this nagging feeling that I am not making life sparkly enough. But maybe she's simply getting her fill of previously heavily restricted choices.>>

It is just over a month since she got the device, so it is probably the latter.

You might feel more comfortable if you were more involved. There are games that you take turns with - there are ways to cast the movies from a device to the tv so you can watch together. You can play the games on another device so that you can either play together online or at least talk about the playing of the game.

However, whenever I hear that a parent thinks maybe they aren't making life interesting enough, I usually think they might be right. Instead of thinking about it, just see if you can think of one thing to introduce. She's a Barbie fan, so what about a visit to the Barbie aisle at Target. Wandering around a department store is often a great place for parent/child interaction and conversation.

What about you look at some of the amazing Barbie stuff online and share that with her (Put "custom Barbie dolls" into Google and click on images.)

Do you sew? Maybe get started with a custom Barbie doll project of your own - she can sort of give direction and you do the sewing. 

-pam




Joyce Fetteroll


On Feb 3, 2014, at 4:40 AM, kgharriman1@... wrote:

How do you know when this activity of TV or ipod or computer is being used excessively ...
 because there's nothing more interesting or sparkly or if its truly a choice that is authentic
and not driven by motivations to do with "the is nothing better to do" aka boredom ?

If she were playing Legos with the same passion and focus, would you be questioning whether she was bored?

If you offer frequent opportunities to do new things or things you know she *currently* loves, but you're filled with worry about what she's doing, then it's because you're paying more attention to the voices in your head and not enough to seeing and being with your daughter and understanding what she loves.

If I were eagerly involved in something and my husband kept trying to get me to do something different -- NOT spend time with him but do something other than what I was doing -- it would be annoying. If I were watching TV and he kept dangling books, sewing, being with a friend, that wouldn't be about my happiness. That would be about him trying to change me to someone who had his values on how to spend leisure time so he could be more comfortable.

Joyce




Sandra Dodd

-=-Sorry for use of word "screens" but the subject space want enough to write them all individually.-=-

So even without wanting to use "screens," you were still asking a question about screentime."  It's not enough to call it something else.  If you're lumping all electronic information and use and entertainment in one pile, you're still thinking of it as one monolithic thing, which it is not.

-=-But maybe she's simply getting her fill of previously heavily restricted choices.-=-

Try to  notice when you say "simply" or "just."  If she's getting her fill of previously restricted options, she's HUGELY, in a big way, doing that.  Not "simply..."  

I know what you meant, and it makes perfect sense, but don't make it small.  It's pretty big to her! :-)

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I really do not understand why people shun and fear technology and "screens"!
It is a wonderful thing and I am so glad I am living in this day and age where amazing things happen and
are possible due to computers and technological advances.
I am so happy there are all this amazing resources available and that for our kids growing up they are so  computer literate
and all this is so natural and normal for them.
It is amazing how they can navigate and figure out things that may take  us older folks some definite work!

Since the Super Bowl was just a few days ago there was this great commercial from Microsoft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaOvHKG0Tio

I also love this commercial


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v76f6KPSJ2w

Yes I love commercials when they are good. My dad was in advertising so we grew up talking and discussing ads and commercials!

I think many people don't even really know what they are afraid it will happen if their kids watch TV, use a computer, play video game or even like commercials!
 Maybe they need to stop and really face what those fears are. Were do they steam from. Are this fears valid and what is the worse case scenario?

Why are radical unschoolers not afraid of too? What happends to kids that grow up being free to choose sitting and watching TV if they want or spending hours playing video games?

I had a local homeschool friend who once told me she things that kids that play a lot of video games will do nothing but live in your basement and play video games .
She said that due to knowing a person who has brain damage and lives in a special home and that this person plays a lot of video game.

 I was like Uh oh?
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2014 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to tell when screens are being used to escape

 
-=-Sorry for use of word "screens" but the subject space want enough to write them all individually.-=-

So even without wanting to use "screens," you were still asking a question about screentime."  It's not enough to call it something else.  If you're lumping all electronic information and use and entertainment in one pile, you're still thinking of it as one monolithic thing, which it is not.

-=-But maybe she's simply getting her fill of previously heavily restricted choices.-=-

Try to  notice when you say "simply" or "just."  If she's getting her fill of previously restricted options, she's HUGELY, in a big way, doing that.  Not "simply..."  

I know what you meant, and it makes perfect sense, but don't make it small.  It's pretty big to her! :-)


<kgharriman1@...>

Yes thank you. It is very big to her especially since we got wifi hooked up in our house on weekend. It helps to put self into child's shoes with husband example. Offers that insight where you are indeed a partner not a dictator. I would love to come to terms with technology. I am quite old fashioned in this way. My husband gets this so much better than me. We have been trying to tear apart my fears and biases and strongly uncomfortable feelings around children looking at ipod or computer or TV. .. I am looking at the clock and wondering if she will ever play with her toys again. I am worried about our 2 and 4 year Olds and their sudden increase in exposure to these technological devices. Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed when something is on. I do have a really hard time with this. All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media. It's scary stuff and after reading Waldorf materials for the past three years I am now basically saying everything Mr Steiner said was rubbish! Oh it's very confusing. My husband says if I can just come to peace with this part of life (which I constantly ask myself does it have to be part of life... Plenty of people don't have televisions) I will be able to embrace unschooling. Or rather if I can embrace the technology I will be closer to getting unschooling.

Sandra Dodd

I was cited and linked in a blog post called
How Much Screen Time is Healthy?
BY TEACHERS WITH APPS · MARCH 24, 2013 · BLOG · 1 COMMENT

I used to get excited if I was quoted by total strangers, but this one is a bit lame. I don't like it when a blogger doesn't use her name. I want to know who's saying what, in the world.

It's had one (1) comment. Maybe it's good that not many people are reading it.

My name links to my "Screentime Index Page," but the reference says
Sandra Dodd, from Unschooled

So now that the complaints are stated, still there's an article here:

http://teacherswithapps.com/how-much-screen-time-is-healthy/#wp-comments

The one comment she posted was

[...] How Much Screen Time is Healthy? I wasn't expecting such diverse reactions to opinions surrounding kids and the amount of time spent in front of screens. [...]

(The ellipses were in it; maybe the blog owner edited it down? I don't know.)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I had a local homeschool friend who once told me she things that kids that play a lot of video games will do nothing but live in your basement and play video games . -=-

Kirby played a lot of video games, and board games, and boffer fighting, and SCA, and works for a gaming company.  He's had jobs for 14 years, and he's only 27.  He's just rented a nice three-bedroom duplex and has a great car.

-=-She said that due to knowing a person who has brain damage and lives in a special home and that this person plays a lot of video game.-=-

As opposed to what brain damaged people in special homes did BEFORE video games, I think it's FANTASTIC!    It's SO much better than sitting and looking out the window.

<kgharriman1@...>

I have a friend who had a bad car accident and played lots of video games to improve her memory. She said it worked wonders.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


<<<<<< I am quite old fashioned in this way.>>>>

But you are here using   a computer right? You probably have other technologies in your home. A dishwasher? refrigerator at least ?
Would you want to go without it?

-=-=-=-=-

.<<<<<<<<<<<< I am looking at the clock and wondering if she will ever play with her toys again.>>>>>>>>>>>


Imagine if your husband was looking at the clock over his shoulders because you found something new you like to do?
 Would that feel good? Would you feel loved and accepted?



-=-=-=-=-=


<<<<<<<<<<<< I am worried about our 2 and 4 year Olds and their sudden increase in exposure to these technological devices>>>>>>>>>>>


Worry about what?


. -=-=-=-=-=

<<<<<<<<<<Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed when something is on. I do have a really hard time with this. >>>>>>>>


Would you have a hard time if she chose to be completely engaged  in a book ???

Have you seen this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpet4TJi41A


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


<<<<<<<<<<All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media. >>>>

Waldorf Schools were founded almost 100 years ago. There is no way Steiner  wrote about keeping kids from TV and computers. There were no such thing at that time or even when Steiner died.
You should not believe some crazy thing you read saying are going to have a terrible disease at 35 if you watch media .  Look at your children, See what they are seeing.
See how wonderful computers and tables are. They bring the big wide world to you . You can travel to Everest and looks at videos and pictures and even hear the sounds of the wind howling ! I probably will never go to the Himalayan Mountains, It would not be on the top of my list but I love that I can see satellite pictures, videos, see people climbing  and so much more!
 
 

-=-=-=-=-=

<<<<<<<It's scary stuff and after reading Waldorf materials for the past three years I am now basically saying everything Mr Steiner said was rubbish! Oh it's very confusing. My husband says if I can just come to peace with this part of life (which I constantly ask myself does it have to be part of life... Plenty of people don't have televisions) I will be able to embrace unschooling. Or rather if I can embrace the technology I will be closer to getting unschooling.>>>>>

But you are here using the computer!!!!!!  Isn't it a tad ironic? You say it is all very confusing because someone created a school that tells your child should not have access to media and technology 100 years ago when they did not even have TVs??? Someone a tad crazy  if you read about him.
One can always decide all technology is crap and go live in a very remote village where they don't even have running water or electricity. No need for TV there!!!!

I know I am being picky here . I am glad you are trying to look into your fears and your husband is so supportive.
I wish people did not get so scared by doom-professing people. You know the run of the mill If your child watches TV their brain will melt and they will have a horrible disease by the time they are 35 or your child will be living in your basement and a looser because they love video game.


_

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Argh! Kitty jumped on top of my laptop and I did not proof read or even sign at the bottom!

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


janine davies

My eldest son did a year of alternative steiner like school, then a year at a recognised steiner school, and before that 2 yrs mainstream. All in pursuit of a school that was a better 'fit' for my wonderful,switched on,enthusiastic,most alive person I have ever met, now 11yr old son.

I Read up on steiner and I liked the recognition that perhaps early forced academics can be harmful, but most of it never sat well with me, my partner, and my son - we felt uncomfortable with it is the best I can say.  Now that we have been radical unschooling for nearly a year and feel SO comfortable and happy and that this is such the right 'fit' for our family, I look back and realise all of what made us uncomfortable about steiner. This is not the place to say what and why, but it is a place to say keep going, keep reading on unschooling and not looking back on what steiner wrote - how could he have known the damage to being 'awakened' to early media if it didn't exist then? Trust me you and your children will be more 'awake' to learning than you/they have ever been now that they can really explore and investigate and discover the world - the real world! 

Also in our experience of steiner - ALL the kids in my sons class had phones, iPads,TV's, computers, played mine craft etc… watched films with 12, 15, and above certificates, but they all had to sneak it, sneak talk about it ,and also it promoted deviousness ,showing off and competition between them as to who had watched what , or managed to play on a device for over an hour with out being found out etc.….The 'language' at the school was more colourful than any my son had ever experienced in a school setting, and the control tactics of some of the teachers were victorian in their nature and extremely questionable to the point of prosecution if in a mainstream school and i am not kidding.
 
'Breath,  think, and question everything', - sandra's  wise words that have helped us all so much in my now happy, thriving, radical unschooling family. Also read 'Free to Learn' Pam larrachia 's book, and of course Sandra, and listen to her words of 'read a little, try a little, wait a little, watch' - Genius wisdom. By the way my boys rarely watch TV, they are much more into their computers, PS3 and watching films - lots of films of all sorts of genres  (loving this so much as I LOVE FILMS!) they have never had TV restricted even when at steiner and my eldest says its boring now but thats because he found his own way with it, and its their choice, and their opinion from freely having it available. 

Good luck 
Janine 






To: [email protected]
From: kgharriman1@...
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 15:41:50 -0800
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] RE: How to tell when screens are being used to escape

 
Yes thank you. It is very big to her especially since we got wifi hooked up in our house on weekend. It helps to put self into child's shoes with husband example. Offers that insight where you are indeed a partner not a dictator. I would love to come to terms with technology. I am quite old fashioned in this way. My husband gets this so much better than me. We have been trying to tear apart my fears and biases and strongly uncomfortable feelings around children looking at ipod or computer or TV. .. I am looking at the clock and wondering if she will ever play with her toys again. I am worried about our 2 and 4 year Olds and their sudden increase in exposure to these technological devices. Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed when something is on. I do have a really hard time with this. All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media. It's scary stuff and after reading Waldorf materials for the past three years I am now basically saying everything Mr Steiner said was rubbish! Oh it's very confusing. My husband says if I can just come to peace with this part of life (which I constantly ask myself does it have to be part of life... Plenty of people don't have televisions) I will be able to embrace unschooling. Or rather if I can embrace the technology I will be closer to getting unschooling.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 4, 2014, at 6:41 PM, <kgharriman1@...> <kgharriman1@...> wrote:

> I am looking at the clock and wondering if she will ever play with her toys again.

She *is* playing with a toy. *You've* labeled it "dangerous technology".

> Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed when something is on. I do have a really hard time with this.

You *should* be worried if your daughter gets transfixed by something!

So you can't relax until you can see what's *really* happening that you're *labeling* transfixed. Until then you're just trying to stuff your fears down. That's not good! The fears will fester and pop back up unexpectedly.

She's engaged. She's found games and other things that seem to her to understand what she's curious about. They're answering her questions. They're showing her new things she's likely to be curious about and she is curious about some of them. And she then has the freedom to explore them.

Games are incredibly empowering! Kids get to control what they pursue. And they are given the power to pursue it. The younger you are the more road blocks that real life puts in your path to pursuing interests. Real life makes young kids dependent on adults who may not have the patience or time to support a child investigating their curiosities. Real life sets up roadblocks of time, money, distance and all sorts of other things. With games it's all right there in reach of a finger. If you make a mistake, no adult will make you feel embarrassed or point it out. Games provide *real* feedback that something didn't work. So you get to try again. And again. You can even *deliberately* choose wrong to see what will happen and learn more about how the world (or the rules) work.

You want to grab all that power and freedom away from her. So she can do what? Play with physical toys that make *you* feel better?

> Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed

If she were transfixed, that means all our kids are (or were) also transfixed.

So what does that mean? Did we not care that our kids were transfixed? And now that some of our kids are older, do we not see or care about the damage it caused to our kids? Are we so in love with a philosophy that we'd recommend other parents damage their kids too?

Which is more likely? That your daughter is transfixed? Or that you're mislabeling what you're seeing?

> All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at
> 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media.

Television has been around (in significant numbers) since the 1950s. Computers since the end of the 70's. Why is it that only these Waldorf people -- as opposed to the legions of scientists who would be naturally curious about such connections -- have noticed these diseases and how they connect to technology?

Waldorf writers are playing on the natural instinct of mothers to want to protect their children from scary things. And what do they get? They get people to buy their books and send their kids to their schools.

I believe Waldorf people believe what they're saying. I believe they do want to protect people from what they believe are horrible things. The thing is that once someone accepts that their fears might be real, they start filtering the world through that fear. They pull in all the ideas that support their fears which bolsters their confidence that they're right to fear. And they dismiss anything that would cause them to question their fears. The fear becomes like a big comfortable wall between you and what will harm your children.

*If* you want to support your children rather than your fears, those fears need to be dragged out in the light to be examined. (As you say you are :-))

> which I constantly ask myself does it have to be part of life...

If you were living alone, technology would definitely not have to be part of *your* life. You could make that choice.

But you have a family and your choices impact them. You're deciding that *they* shouldn't have TV just because you don't want it.

If you want to unschool, then you'll need to find a way to live your values in such a way that others can peacefully pursue what they values. Vegetarian and organic loving unschooling parents *can* find ways to eat and prepare what they believe is best while supporting their kids exploring the world of food.

With TV fears, it's often much easier for a parent to drag her dislike out into the light to examine it. It's much harder to create an environment where everyone can watch what they want in peace and feel supported while you avoid it! ;-)

So *is* it just the Waldorf message that began your fears? Or did Waldorf feed fears that were already there? Can you trace the roots of your fears back? Does it go deeper than technology? Is there something you fear not having control of because of something bad in your past?

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

Alex wrote:  -=-See how wonderful computers and tables are.-=-

She meant computers and tablets, I bet. 
I personally LOVE tables. I'm old-fashioned that way.  Mostly, though, so I'll have space to leave my compuer out.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am looking at the clock and wondering if she will ever play with her toys again.-=-

Stop looking at the clock, and stop wishing that a toy would be more exciting and wonderful than an interactive game with lots of facets that doesn't need to be gathered up and put away.

-=- I am worried about our 2 and 4 year Olds and their sudden increase in exposure to these technological devices. -=-

There's a lot of fear in that sentence.  In private, yourself, try to rephrase the qhole thing in more positive phrases.  "Sudden increase" sounds alarmist and "technological devices" sounds like evil robots with Edward Scissorhands appendages, to me.

-=- Our 2 year old daughter sits transfixed when something is on.  -=-

"Sits transfixed..." sounds like someone else's phrase.  Unless you've used it about her nursing, and seeing food she's really liking, and watching a movie, and such, it might be a borrowed piece of fear or resistance.  People do that.  They borrow an idea with its idiomatic expression.

What you're calling "sits transfixed" might be total fascination and learning so fast and solid you would NEVER be able to "design a lesson" or create an experience that would invoke that much learning in that small a space.  

Some parents are jealous, when they see that a child can learn things the parents don't know anything about.  Chek your emotions to see if that could be part of it.

-=-All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media. -=-

Seriously?  Is this for real, or a random sort of joke?    What kind of terrible disease?

-=-It's scary stuff and after reading Waldorf materials for the past three years-=-

Waldorf materials aimed at persuading parents that it's a great idea to have their kids in a Waldorf school?  Or reading about Waldorf from a broader perspective, including problems, oddness, racism and other lunacy?

-=-I am now basically saying everything Mr Steiner said was rubbish! -=-

Are you sure what you've been reading was stuff he himself wrote?  Why and how would he have been writing about television and computers, since he died before people even had radios in their homes?

Do you REALLY want our child to live like a child of a 19th century factory worker in Germany?  Or to believe in a fantasy forest world?  It's not where he will live.  It's not where he lives now.

Waldorf schools have something to sell.  They have tuition, materials, special toys, and they throw in a bunch of fear and guilt, too.  I say this as someone who plays recorder really well and knows tons of fairy tales and loves the idea of a forest full of magical creatures.   And I say it as someone who was born long after Steiner died, who lives in 2014 and who is right at this moment using a computer and the internet to help strangers while a young child very happily watches cartoons in another room.  She is not escaping into that "screen."  She is thinking, and hearing words she wouldn't have heard this morning otherwise.  

"Making crime legal?  What were you thinking!?"

"Crimeny!  With crime legal, what are crime-fighters to do?"
"Now if we bust a crime-buster, we get busted!"

Then they briefly discussed the problem of being good being bad, and being bad being good.  
Power-Puff Girls.  Better than a vocabular worksheet and waiting 20 years for a philosophy class.

It's not my little girl.  It's the daughter of my son's girlfriend.  Watching stories with art and music is a good way for time to pass while her mom  and Kirby are at work, too.  There's a photo of her with my oldest son, Kirby, here:  
For those without facebook access, he's holding her and she's looking at him admiringly.

I've been in Austin nearly two weeks.  Tomorrow I'm going back to Albuquerque.  Today, I'm listening to Power Puff girls, and will do some more paper cutting and playdough, and book reading, and I don't mind if she would rather play video games or watch TV than do some of the other things we could do.  Yesterday we walked a couple of miles, exploring a drainage area near here, throwing rocks, collecting shells (fresh-water mussels, I think), her walking on walls with me nearby and discussing how tall people are at what ages.  I wouldn't have gone if she didn't want to.  I won't try to make her play with playdoh or listen to a book if she doesn't want to.  Judging by the past 12 days, at some point she will want to. :-)

There's a photo of the water in today's Just Add Light.  

It is possible that what Steiner said was rubbish.  If a child paints with black, it is very possible that she will still be healthy and happy.  If she paints with blue, too.  Or yellow.  If she mixes those colors together, she will learn more than if she keeps them separate, but the learning will be her own, and the result might not be as attractive for taping up so that parents feel good about sending much more money for next month.  And if a child isn't learning well in that environment, the parents can be blamed for not having decorated their house to Waldorf specifications.

It's not a richer world.  It's a smaller, controlled, fantasy world.

Let your children live in the real world.

Sandra


<plaidpanties666@...>

 >>she spends her days and nights moving from her ipod first thing in the morning (skipping breakfast) then to barbie. Com or reading eggs for another couple of hours. Then to the TV for a movie or three for another few hours.<<


It could help a lot to look past the devices and see what she's actually doing. All the different things - reading, problem solving, having fun, listening to music, drawing, playing with color, playing with fashion and design, multitasking, exploring stories (plot, character development, themes, relationships), discovering new facts, developing new skills, making new connections, maybe meeting other people. That doesn't sound like escapism, it sounds like a very busy, very engaged person. 


>>All my Waldorf reading indicates they will contract some terrible disease at 35 if they are "awakened" too early from early academics or watching media<<

OMG, they might become graphic designers! Or IT consultants! Or animators! Or authors! Or accountants! 

When "watching media" is associated with academics, it usually means someone has conflated teaching with learning and is worried that kids will simply absorb everything they see without any kind of critical analysis. But that's not the way unschooling kids learn. They actively compare shows, movies, games, stories, and things other people say to them. They bounce ideas off other ideas and see where that gets them. They wonder why the same story has multiple versions - and why very different stories can have the same underlying themes, plots, even characters. 

If  your daughter likes Barbie movies, here's something for you to play with in your own mind- how is the Barbie Rapunzel story like Tangled? How are they different? Which is more "true" to the original tale? Which do you like better? Which is more "feminist"? Like an old compare-contrast school exercise ;) Or if not Rapunzel, pick some other show or movie or game your daughter likes and think about it in terms of some classic piece of literature or folk lore. It's a fun way to challenge your preconceptions about what your kid is "getting" from a particular story. 


<kgharriman1@...>

Yes in You are your child's first teacher by rahima Baldwin Dancy there is a quote from one of Steiners lectures in 1924 in chapter 13 about how illnesses in later life are related to influences in first 7 years and if a child is taken out of their dreamy fluid heavenly state too early (before loss of baby teeth) from exposure to things that stimulate the intellect. Yep is all there in that book. My husband had no time for any of it. But once you have read this stuff Gee is hard to unread it if that makes sense. It has made sense to me but to enable this dream state to be then one must live on another planet I feel.

Sandra Dodd

-=- about how illnesses in later life are related to influences in first 7 years and if a child is taken out of their dreamy fluid heavenly state too early (before loss of baby teeth) from exposure to things that stimulate the intellect.-=-

Okay, but not one particular catastrophic illness at 35, right?

Kirsty Harriman

No after 50 was the age quoted in the bit I read before.   I tried to find the part which used age 35 but didn't get to it I need the book in the time I had before.  Of course this sounds ludicrous taken out of context like this but the whole Waldorf movement is based on these types of theories that Steiner put forth and now being seen as TRUTH like I was the gospel. Either a whole bunch of people are deluded or brainwashed or both or there is some element of factual basis that explains the Waldorf following. It's very protective and nurturing and beautiful and very easy to  be sucked into. But Sandra you are spot on in sayjbg b it's a small controlled fantasy world. it IS. Albeit a beautiful one. 


Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note3 on the Telstra 4G network

Joyce Fetteroll


On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:20 PM, kgharriman1@... wrote:

But once you have read this stuff Gee is hard to unread it if that makes sense.

It will help to examine *why* it makes sense to you.

It sounds goofy to me. It makes no sense. 

The difference is that you're holding some fear that the words resonate with. The words are saying "Yes, you're right to be fearful. And here's how you can prevent this terrible thing you fear from happening."

But the words are wrong. Yet your fear is making them sound more right than the sensible, observable truth and everything that people are writing.

What you're writing doesn't sound like ordinary mom fear for her kids. It sounds big. There's something you fear happening that's WAY out of proportion to it's likelihood. You're grasping at what you can control to prevent this fearful thing from happening. Technology and early learning is *not* the monster. So what is? What real thing (or things) could you not control in the past that has frightened you?

You don't need to answer here. Those are questions to think about.

Joyce

Lisa

I read in one of my early childhood development textbooks that babies gazing at tree branches crossed over their heads against the sky stimulates their intellect. Do waldorf parents have to keep their babies from gazing at tree branches too?

What kind of evidence and research does this author base the idea on that children have a 'fluid dreamy' state that lasts 7ish years that will be ruined by tv?

And what about the parent fearing most of the real world, the idea that the real world is a dangerous place- that fear doesn't do anything to ruin this 'fluid dreamy' state for the child?

You can't unread words. But you can choose not to let them haunt you.

Stress, anxiety-- those can definitely have a big impact on the body's immune system, and on diseases in later life, like heart disease. That's not special information only certain people have figured out and have the secret to- it's pretty well known, scientifically documented fact.

And escapism- escapism is a tool for coping with stress. If you don't want children who need to escape, work on what you can do to make their lives peaceful, loving, and fun. A mom who is afraid of the things her children love won't do that as well as one who sees the value in them, and appreciates the joy they bring.
A lot of literature is called 'escapist.'
People talk about 'escaping' into nature.

Waldorf schools and philosophies strike me as rather escapist.

Escaping into fantasies helped me survive my childhood. I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. But, a childhood that a child doesn't have to escape from (like escaping from a fear-filled, anxious mom, or a world filled with attractive but toxic, dangerous things), would be a lot better.

Lisa C

Sandra Dodd

-=- Either a whole bunch of people are deluded or brainwashed or both or there is some element of factual basis that explains the Waldorf following.-=-

What I've read about him seems baseless, airy, nonsense.  He was not a professiona educator in any way when he took a contract to run a school at some factory or something. He pulled that stuff out of his butt, I think.  And he was interested in the same kind of mysticism lots of people were in those days—Rosicrucianism and magic from imagined colored lights, candles, I don't know if he was into seances but lots of those folks were in those days.  

-=-It's very protective and nurturing and beautiful and very easy to  be sucked into. -=-

It's magic-black-forest jackoff.   But it's beautiful and attractive and they make promises that nobody can keep, and then send the bill.

If the kids are having fun, fine.  If the parents are fine with letting them play iPad knowing that then the kids and the parents are violating the rules, fine.  

It's bad enough that public school has so much control over parents, but Waldorf wants to own every member of the family AND the house!

There was another outfit like that.  Probably still is.  A fundamentalist Christian curriculum that people had to apply for.  Somewhere I have a copy of the application from the early 1990s.    Many pages.  Applicants had to state that there was none and would be no rock and roll, not even Christian rock, in the house.  No adult could be living with the family who wasn't one of the parents.   I can't remember the name of it right now.  I also have some placemats that were part of the curriculum, so dinner could be a lesson too.  It was quite humorless and oppressive.

That one had promises, too, and rules galore.  

I'm a big fan of living irectly in the normal, actual world and using reason and compassion to figure out what to do.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-But once you have read this stuff Gee is hard to unread it if that makes sense.

-=-It will help to examine *why* it makes sense to you.-=-

One aspect of people's attachment will be the expense.  
When applied psychology was new, one easily shown effect of getting something for free was that it was devalued. 
The testing involved reviewers of movies.  If they saw the movie free, they gave it worse reviews than if they were given discount "press" or reviewer's tickets.  If they paid nothing, they denigrated the movie more than if it had cost them $2.

Jihong has talked to me about that effect, and my work with unschoolers. She said if people had to pay for it, they would listen better.
But I'm interested in sharing lots of ideas with websites and discussions.  (NOT interested in being plagiarized, that's another topic—I want people to know who's written what).

Meanwhile back at not-so-free Waldorf World, peole pay a lot for the school, the workshops/courses/books.  And there's a special superior cultish background to it all, an otherworldliness, a magical realm of healing light and juju.

When people have invested time and money in that and have the receipts to prove it, then if they reject it it's harder.  They are (literally) invested.  Their attachment has roots and tendrils.  

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-No after 50 was the age quoted in the bit I read before.   I tried to find the part which used age 35 but didn't get to it I need the book in the time I had before.-=-

Naming any one age sounds more like a prophetic threat than any sort of scientific or actual evidence or proof.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I read in one of my early childhood development textbooks that babies gazing at tree branches crossed over their heads against the sky stimulates their intellect.-=-

I think anytime a baby is gazing in the baby-wonder way, his intellect is stimulated.
You can see in their eyes when they're thinking, if you can look at their eyes without trying to see the through the page of a book, or some other lens or filter that keeps you from looing at your child directlly, instead of first saying "He's three months old and wasn't a preemie, and so he should be doing/learning/being..."

Learn to see what he IS, not what he should be but isn't quite, or where he's "on track" or "ahead."

Just the actual what-is of him, or her.

Sandra

<kgharriman1@...>

Such great advice and so much to work on. Lisa your post hit home at the end when you referred to an anxious fear filled mum. I feel like this is me. I cried. 


As I type this (and I rarely get here because the kids are so I use my phone mostly to read on here and post when I can) the children are watching another barbie movie, after hours on barbie.com this morning (which I have been trying to see the value in... they find it funny and think they are amused by the satire), I continue to notice my discomfort. I have cried and cried and I don't know why. My husband comes home and sees me doing something controlling (yesterday I sort of snapped and had to turn the computer off which of course led to meltdowns and other unpleasantries) he gets disappointed and wonders why I am reading all this stuff and just pretending to do it! He tells me I need to get to a place where I am at peace with the kids watching things all day every day for a year or more. He has come from the same restricted tv place as me, but after reading Rue Kreams' book and some of what I have read out to him from here he totally gets this. And, ironically, I don't! He tells me I am not seeing the big picture and that I am not letting go of all my fears. Everything he says is spot on and I feel so blessed to have his support. I wish I had his faith and trust.


Janine I really found so helpful to read about your journey from a waldorf background. I have googled to find such stories but haven't found much. I have been so mystified how waldorf in the home can work for people when it involves so much parental control. Maybe all the blogs I have read are just pretending. I don't know.


Still trying to work out what I am scared of.


(Edited by Sandra --I put space between paragraphs.)


Sandra Dodd

-=-yesterday I sort of snapped and had to turn the computer off which of course led to meltdowns and other unpleasantries-=-

Are you sure you "had to" turn the computer off?


It makes you powerless if you think you had no choice, and in turn you make your child powerless.

If you say "I had to," then you can comfort yourself about having done something harsh.  Don't comfort yourself.  Learn to make choices in ways that empower you and your children.

Sandra




Sandra Dodd

-=-he gets disappointed and wonders why I am reading all this stuff and just pretending to do it! He tells me I need to get to a place where I am at peace with the kids watching things all day every day for a year or more. He has come from the same restricted tv place as me, but after reading Rue Kreams' book and some of what I have read out to him from here he totally gets this. And, ironically, I don't! He tells me I am not seeing the big picture and that I am not letting go of all my fears. Everything he says is spot on and I feel so blessed to have his support. I wish I had his faith and trust.-=-

What do you want to have faith and trust IN?
In Barbie?
In computers?
In unschooling?

Do you want to trust that Joyce and Pam and I and others here actually do have grown children and that we're not crazed childless men making up elaborate stories for some nefarious reason?

What "trust" do you mean?  And this is not a rhetorical question.

Faith in what?
Trust in what?

Sandra

<cforest@...>

Dear Kristy,


Just like you, I was a big Waldorf fan when my girls were little. I read TONS of books (by Steiner and by his followers), ran a discussion group from my house AND a biodynamic discussion group when we had our biodynamic farm. I had the perfect little Waldorf homestead and my house looked like a Waldorf kindergarden. I made all my needle-felted props (with homemade plant-dyed wool!!) to tell stories to my girls (Waldorf-approved stories, of course!!) and had a very strong daily, weekly and yearly rhythm... Sooooo, I know where you are coming from. But you know what? I kept going to bed (memorizing my stories... and talking to the girls angels, of course!) and wondering: when will we have fun together? When will it get easier? What's the point of all this if I feel like going through the day is just a reproduction of a script?


I was on Waldorf forums and kept asking about my girls not wanting to participate in circle time, not wanting to go outside when it was "time", etc. and all I got was: reign those little girls back in! And it did not felt right... Finally, I came accross Sandra's Website and Big Book and Rue Kream's book and others and it all made sense. I remember reading those books on a camping trip with my girls and it was a revelation. Everything changed. And we started having fun! It felt so right...


Of course, I didn't drop everything all at once. It was a slow transition (fortunately, my girls were still quite young, so we were still in the early childhood phase), but a sure one to more authenticity and more joy. That being said, it is a long process to let go of those Waldorf-induced fears. The only cure is to watch your child, watch movies with them (and if you do not care for the movie, watch them watch the movie and how their little faces light up!). Forget Steiner and his funky ideas, look at your children. They are your inspiration, not Steiner. Trust that their joy is much more important than some quirky ideas about how to raise children from 100 years ago. Steiner was an interesting man, but he lived a long time ago and we need to be here and now, WITH your children.


Need to go and fix lunch!


Love,


Catherine Forest

D. Regan


Janine I really found so helpful to read about your journey from a waldorf background. I have googled to find such stories but haven't found much. I have been so mystified how waldorf in the home can work for people when it involves so much parental control. Maybe all the blogs I have read are just pretending. I don't know.

I had a memory that there was quite a lot of stuff on the internet from people who were glad to have moved on from adherence to Steinerism, so I did a quick search.    

http://waldorfwatch.com/  is huge and comprehensive with links to many other sites.  I was just going to dip my toes in but waded into their big 'Say What' page, full of wacky things Steiner himself said.  Lots of iconoclastic stuff there!  Here's one:-
"Let us take a very ordinary, practical matter: the eating of potatoes ...  If in spiritual science (anthroposophy is, after all, only a name) genuine investigation is made into how the potato nourishes the human being, the potato is found to be something that is not completely digested by the digestive organs, but it passes into the head through the lymph glands, through the blood, in such a way that the head itself must also serve as a digestive organ for the potato. When potatoes are eaten in large quantities, the head becomes a kind of stomach and also digests ... This kind of knowledge can never be derived from natural science. When things are genuinely investigated with respect to their spiritual quality, it becomes apparent that in this modern age humanity has been seriously injured by the excessive consumption of potatoes."

But learning more about unschooling and noticing how things really are with your children will be more helpful than lingering over the waldorf stuff.  From what I understand, Waldorf education is extremely prescriptive - children need this at this time and so on.  Unschooling allows children to grow and learn in their own unique ways and times, as they did when they were little children learning to walk and talk.  It's an awesome way to learn.  That guy in charge of a European school a century ago with all those confident but wacky ideas, didn't know what will help your children thrive today.  

When children are supported in exploring what they're drawn to, their learning will be joyful, deep, complex and wonderful to witness.  Enjoy their explorations of the world, help them with it, support them in it, share it. 

Debbie.