<treesock@...>

Hello, Always Learners.

I'm writing asking for some perspective and some suggestions.

I have two boys, 5 and 8. The younger boy is--and always has been--very physical, impulsive, and hot-tempered. (It seems like as soon as he had control over his hand movements, he was punching, slapping, and grabbing with angry grunts. In fact, some of you may remember that I posted about him a couple of years ago after he weaned at 3 years old but then began to punch and hit me in the chest when I didn't want to begin nursing him again.)

We've worked on this behavior with him from the start, helping him (when it is not the heat of the moment) to pause and breathe, to tell what's bothering him before he wants to hit someone, and being "right there" when he is playing with others so we can anticipate problems and help redirect/find solutions. We're really clear with boundaries, and use few--but solid--words to communicate them.

But he still gets So Angry. His temper flashes up so fast that there is often not enough time to intercept a punch headed for his brother, and the move from "fine" to "wallop" often happens invisibly, in the younger one's mind, to the surprise of everyone else in the room. And with us (my husband and I), at the first hint of an obstacle to what he wants, he begins ranting about how stupid everyone is, how much he hates us, how we are bad parents, and threatens (though not often follows through) to throw things at us or break things of ours.

His brother, my 8 year old, used to roll with his younger brother's behavior, and seemed content with the fact that my husband and I consistently addressed the problems and tried to help. But he is growing less inclined to take that first blow, maybe as they are approaching a more similar place developmentally? Even as I am uttering the word, "Stop" to the younger one, the older one is pushing him back, or snatching the toy back, or yelling insults back at him. And the younger one holds grudges, so even if I think we have reached a solution, as soon as I turn my back, the younger one might sneak in a sucker punch to his brother.

I feel utterly ineffectual in these dreadful moments. All the tactics that worked well with the older boy, helping him to gain skill in this area, seem to fall flat with the younger one. I don't want to vilify my younger son. He is also nurturing, empathetic, loving, and loves to make others laugh. But woven in and among that is a kind of general curmudgeonliness (think Walter Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men)" and a hot flashing temper. 98% of our day is fun and peaceful. But that 2% is a doozy, and leaves me dazed for a good while afterward.

I've been wanting to write about this for a while, but I was compelled to especially today because it seems to be reaching a high pitch, and I need some help. Also, I am almost 3 months pregnant, and I want to be more solid in my keeping-the-peace skills before that big change happens in our house.

Thanks for any ideas,

Teresa

Christine Nakra

I'm not sure if other parents are supposed to respond or if it's just the moderators but this email spoke to me. In short, I can totally relate to everything you said just a couple of years ago. Nothing anyone ever did was right for my daughter- constantly angry and aggressive for unknown reasons. We were really struggling as a family because of it.
A friend suggested to me that a gluten free diet may help. I thought "what the heck is that going to do?"
But I was desperate and looked into it. After quite sometime, we tried it  (just to rule it out),hardcore for 2 months before seeing any changes.
It changed our lives-especially my daughters. It's an avenue worth exploring. The food we are eating isn't the same food our grandparents ate. I hope this helps you.

Christine



On Friday, January 31, 2014 2:48 PM, "treesock@..." <treesock@...> wrote:
 
Hello, Always Learners.

I'm writing asking for some perspective and some suggestions.

I have two boys, 5 and 8. The younger boy is--and always has been--very physical, impulsive, and hot-tempered. (It seems like as soon as he had control over his hand movements, he was punching, slapping, and grabbing with angry grunts. In fact, some of you may remember that I posted about him a couple of years ago after he weaned at 3 years old but then began to punch and hit me in the chest when I didn't want to begin nursing him again.)

We've worked on this behavior with him from the start, helping him (when it is not the heat of the moment) to pause and breathe, to tell what's bothering him before he wants to hit someone, and being "right there" when he is playing with others so we can anticipate problems and help redirect/find solutions. We're really clear with boundaries, and use few--but solid--words to communicate them.

But he still gets So Angry. His temper flashes up so fast that there is often not enough time to intercept a punch headed for his brother, and the move from "fine" to "wallop" often happens invisibly, in the younger one's mind, to the surprise of everyone else in the room. And with us (my husband and I), at the first hint of an obstacle to what he wants, he begins ranting about how stupid everyone is, how much he hates us, how we are bad parents, and threatens (though not often follows through) to throw things at us or break things of ours.

His brother, my 8 year old, used to roll with his younger brother's behavior, and seemed content with the fact that my husband and I consistently addressed the problems and tried to help. But he is growing less inclined to take that first blow, maybe as they are approaching a more similar place developmentally? Even as I am uttering the word, "Stop" to the younger one, the older one is pushing him back, or snatching the toy back, or yelling insults back at him. And the younger one holds grudges, so even if I think we have reached a solution, as soon as I turn my back, the younger one might sneak in a sucker punch to his brother.

I feel utterly ineffectual in these dreadful moments. All the tactics that worked well with the older boy, helping him to gain skill in this area, seem to fall flat with the younger one. I don't want to vilify my younger son. He is also nurturing, empathetic, loving, and loves to make others laugh. But woven in and among that is a kind of general curmudgeonliness (think Walter Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men)" and a hot flashing temper. 98% of our day is fun and peaceful. But that 2% is a doozy, and leaves me dazed for a good while afterward.

I've been wanting to write about this for a while, but I was compelled to especially today because it seems to be reaching a high pitch, and I need some help. Also, I am almost 3 months pregnant, and I want to be more solid in my keeping-the-peace skills before that big change happens in our house.

Thanks for any ideas,

Teresa


<plaidpanties666@...>

 >>Even as I am uttering the word, "Stop" to the younger one, the older one is pushing him back, or snatching the toy back, or yelling insults back at him. <<


That's not a bad thing - your older son is learning to stand up for himself and take direct action on his own behalf, and the younger is learning that sometimes when you hit, you get hit back. That's real life - real world consequences. And it wouldn't hurt for you to say so out loud: that's what happens when you hit people. 

>> 98% of our day is fun and peaceful. <<

That's incredibly peaceful in a home with more than one kid. It makes "hot tempered" seem like an over-reaction. 


---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

Find a karate class—not a street-fighting class, but a school interested in self-defense and traditions. Get them both in there, maybe in separate classes, maybe a private lesson for the younger one. Pay for it as though it's medical therapy.

Your older one will learn to block a punch and pin an opponent. The younger one will learn NOT to hit, and not to be aggressive, and to be respectful and patient.

That's my best idea.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Christine, it's fine for anyone to post. The guidelines are here, please do read them:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS

I always bristle at recommendations to limit a child's diet, because it goes toward control and rules. There is a HUGE fad in the parenting world these days about controlling children's behavior by controlling their diet. This fad will calm down and die out, as fads do. Some truth and need will remain and much will be completely abandoned, and people will be sharing how they didn't really see changes, but their friends wanted them to, and (.... it's happened with many other things before; it's food now).

It is possible that the original poster will want to try dietary changes, but here is one problem:

IF a person is persuaded that eliminating gluten or sugar or corn syrup or something will turn her child to another kind of child.... then what if he eats that food? He has permission to revert and to blame the food. He can justify bad behavior with "Probably I ate some gluten."

In an unschooling home, it's not as good as helping a child experiment (if he's interested) with different foods to see if there is a difference, or in helping him deal with his worst reactions at home, instead of helping him come to believe that if he's ever out away from the family and eats a hot dog bun and starts slugging people, that it's not his fault.

People have ways of being. Some, they grow out of. Some, they learn to manage, to compensate for, to deal with. That is part of learning, as surely as learning the names of birds, trees, colors and numbers.

Sandra

Karen

>>>>> I feel utterly ineffectual in these dreadful moments. All the tactics that worked well with the older boy, helping him to gain skill in this area, seem to fall flat with the younger one. I don't want to vilify my younger son. He is also nurturing, empathetic, loving, and loves to make others laugh. But woven in and among that is a kind of general curmudgeonliness (think Walter Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men)" and a hot flashing temper. <<<<<

When Ethan was much younger, we had a young friend who Ethan simply adored. They were very close, and she and Ethan played nearly every day, for at least a couple of hours. Not every day, but often enough, this friend would suddenly turn and wallop Ethan, for what seemed like no good reason.

But of course there was a reason. We just didn't know what it was at the time. So, we watched and tried different things. What finally worked in the end was recognizing that she was actually looking for some time alone. I think she was conflicted, because she was enjoying her time with Ethan, but she was also feeling very stimulated and needed a bit of a rest from their interaction. Ethan was a very active, exuberant little boy. His friend was too, but she also liked to rest in front of a favourite show, or dance by herself to her favourite music, or draw quietly, or put together a puzzle.

We learned to watch for signs. She would start using slightly more aggressive body motions like banging the toys or talking more loudly and in a more sharp fashion. Sometimes, however, she would get quiet, but also more serious and more rigid, both in body and in attitude. For our friend the change was very subtle and it quickly moved from subtle cues to aggression. So, the other parent and I had to pay close attention.

Maybe setting up a quiet area for your boy would help? Somewhere he can do things he enjoys doing on his own or with you quietly for a bit. Pay attention to shifts in his play. If you notice a pattern, try to act before it turns to aggression. Maybe he needs some food - some protein. Perhaps a snack break would help. Milk and cookies...something he really enjoys. Maybe some music. Maybe a video. Maybe he needs you to come and sit with him. You would know best.

By the way, this friend is a lovely young girl now. She's eleven, plays the violin beautifully, is still very passionate and strong, but not aggressive at all.

Karen.

<luminara.king@...>

Hi Teresa,

We too have a very physical son aged 7.  His sister, aged 12 and myself receive most of the punches and kicks.  I have friends who have read parenting books about setting "Limits and Boundaries" and have offered advice, telling me I should have a "No Tolerance" policy on violence in my home, otherwise our son will grow into an adult who hits people.  What a load of BS!  Of course, these friends send their children to school so don't even spend time getting to know them.   I think all the responses you have received here are great.  I totally, agree with Sandra that a Martial Art class will help direct your son's physical energy, we are looking for a class for our son.  


I also noticed my son loves challenges.  So, if I see him getting "Worked up" I offer up a challenge, "I bet you can't do 100 jumps on the trampoline without stopping",  "I CAN!" he replies and off he goes.  


The weather here in the UK is incredibly stormy and wet this winter and I know my son's behaviour is very different when we are outdoors.  He gets to run and jump, climb and swing, so having many days of not being able to get out of the house is a pain!  But, last night,when my son started to run wildly around the house bashing into things I asked "Hey, how about we go for a nighttime walk?" he jumped at the idea and we grabbed our torches and headed out into the dark, rainy night.  We live in the countryside so it gets pretty dark.   This was such an adventure for our son and he was ready for bed when we returned.  


I would also recommend a wonderful book called "Raising Parents, Raising Kids" by Dawn Menken.  She is a therapist who believes children need to us to "Join them" not stop them.  Her book is respectful to both parent and child and is a joyful read of how to see difficult behaviour as a way to learn more and deepen our relationship with our child.


Hope this helps


Luminara 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I would also recommend a wonderful book called "Raising Parents, Raising Kids" by Dawn Menken.  She is a therapist who believes children need to us to "Join them" not stop them. -=-

I don't know the book, but it matches something Marty told me when he was really little, that I documented at the time.  If Kirby was five and a half, Marty was end of two, or beginning of three years old.

-------------------
Kirby (who was five and a half) said "I know what. Just ignore it."

"Just ignore that he was playing the kazoo after I told him not to?"

"Yeah."

Marty said with some excitement—"I have the best superdy-duperdy idea and it’s in my head"—pointing with both hands to his forehead.

"What is it?"

"You should just play with us." (very matter-of-factly said)

"Play with you with the kazoo?"

"Yeah!"

I said, "I’m going to go write these ideas down so the next time I get mad I’ll think about them." And in the years since then I have thought about those ideas a lot. Instead of being my mother's child, I am my children's mother.

-------------------

It's in this writing, which is in Moving a Puddle, and was first published in 1999 in Home Education Magazine.  

Sandra

<treesock@...>

Thank y'all so much for these responses. 


I especially appreciate hearing how several of you have worked in and around similar issues. I was reading along as you all responded, and "trying a little, and watching," and I realized this past week that for three years now, I have been operating under a fuzzy assumption that if I was applying the principles of unschooling faithfully, then my children would not have bouts of aggression, or make rude comments to loved ones, or experiment with pushing physical and emotional boundaries. (And I realize now how unrealistic and unfair that sounds, or at least how silly!) 


So, what I am coming to think is that those things likely will still happen (at least for some kids), but in trying to handle them more skillfully myself, I'm increasing the likelihood that peace and understanding will be the outcome and decreasing the likelihood that mistrust and frustration will. And hopefully, over time, the dynamic will shift in the direction of peace as skills and impulse control develop with age. Is that getting closer to the mark?


I did ask my sons about martial arts classes. My younger son was not interested at all, and my older son said no to martial arts but yes to fencing. I was thinking that some investigation into chivalry might hold some of the same benefits as martial arts philosophy, and I'm glad for a fun physical activity that he's excited about. 


And I'll give some thought, too, to the playing along. I'll have to work on catching that "big energy" sooner, as neither of my boys has appreciated the "Playful Parenting" type response once frustration has set in. But I am looking more for those cues--in word, tone, and body language--that might help me to intervene sooner and more effectively.


Thanks again.


Teresa

 

Sandra Dodd

-=-I did ask my sons about martial arts classes. My younger son was not interested at all, and my older son said no to martial arts but yes to fencing. I was thinking that some investigation into chivalry might hold some of the same benefits as martial arts philosophy, and I'm glad for a fun physical activity that he's excited about. -=-

I don't think fencing is in the same category as karate.  Karate has a body-awareness aspect.  Fencing is poking with sticks, and the world is full of sticks.

Maybe a class with mixed ages where a parent (or two) can participate with the children would be good.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I did ask my sons about martial arts classes. My younger son was not interested at all, and my older son said no to martial arts-=-

Not a good way to present something that could have answered all your questions and problems.  What does a five year old KNOW about karate?  You gave him a choice—say no to something you don't know much about?  And he said no.  

Try to avoid doing that in the future.  You will have many other opportunities to open the world up for him if you don't keep giving him chances to close it down.

Sandra

Gwen Montoya

Many martial arts studios offer a free class (or series of classes). Maybe he'd be interested in trying a class or two - just to see what it is like? Sometimes the free trial period even involves a uniform to wear.

Gwen


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:


-=-I did ask my sons about martial arts classes. My younger son was not interested at all, and my older son said no to martial arts-=-

Not a good way to present something that could have answered all your questions and problems.  What does a five year old KNOW about karate?  You gave him a choice—say no to something you don't know much about?  And he said no.  

Try to avoid doing that in the future.  You will have many other opportunities to open the world up for him if you don't keep giving him chances to close it down.

Sandra