<kgharriman1@...>

I was wondering about how Radical Unschoolers approach this issue when the child decides they don't want to clean their teeth.

Lynn Williams

I'm not really a radical unschooler, but my ASC son has real problems with me giving him direct instructions so I try and be very hands off.

I got the dentist to take photos of how to clean teeth with a proper model of teeth, I've not seen anything else like it as most instructions are written word only.  Once I stopped cleaning my sons teeth at about age 4, I made sure that he followed the instructions but I rarely say anything.  He also uses a mouthwash so I'm happy that he is doing a good job even though it may not be perfect every time.

We have a simple rule in our house, no teeth cleaning means no food, I have explained the importance and my son knows that he has to clean his teeth, we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes - no breakfast is a strong motivator.

Lynn




On 6 January 2014 10:11, <kgharriman1@...> wrote:
 

I was wondering about how Radical Unschoolers approach this issue when the child decides they don't want to clean their teeth.


Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 6, 2014, at 6:46 AM, Lynn Williams <mumtoross@...> wrote:

> I'm not really a radical unschooler,

Sometimes people who haven't fully embraced radical unschooling do grasp important parts like being attentive and responsive to children's needs.

Sometimes people, though, members join with the idea that this forum is a "Let's trade ideas that work for us." When the purpose of the forum is to respond to situations with radically unschooling approaches. The purpose is to provide a point of view that can't be found on mainstream parenting advice.

That said, I do hope you read the introductory emails that explains that *all* posts, whether initial questions or responses to questions, will be analyzed in light of radical unschooling ideas.

> I got the dentist to take photos of how to clean teeth with a proper model of teeth,

This is a good idea for learning anything. Being attentive and responsive to how your own child learns, can help lower frustration! :-) Still as an adult I appreciate a combination of pictures and words. If a child wants to learn something, it's helpful not to focus on the "right" way and to focus on how the child learns.

What is also a great idea is being aware of when the *child* wants the information. Before a child is interested, parents can strew interesting posters, charts, pictures. Put them up for a while. Then replace them with something else. Don't make them all self improvement charts! Imagine the message your husband would be sending about his view and acceptance of you if he put up charts on How to Lose Weight, How to Eat Healthy, How to Cook Toast Properly.

> Once I stopped cleaning my sons teeth at about age 4,

Did he ask you to stop? If not, I'm wondering why you stopped.

Did you think age 4 was "old enough"? Did you fear that if you kept brushing he'd never learn himself? That you'd have to accompany him to college to brush his teeth for him?

For radical unschooling to flourish, parents need to look at what their children are showing they're capable of rather than at charts, ages and advice from experts who've never set eyes on your child.

Children will show they're ready by doing. Humans are driven to become more competent. We want to do things ourselves. No child will go off to college still needing his mom to brush his teeth ... Unless she sends messages that he can't do it when he shows signs of wanting to! This video Drive by Daniel Pink explains it clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc

> I made sure that he followed the instructions but I rarely say anything.

How do you "make sure" in a relationship building way? It's one of those weaselly phrases that sounds so gentle. But in practice, unless a child wants to do something -- in which case there's no need to "make sure" -- it often involves some harsh preparation to prevent the child from defying the mom's wishes. In many cases that preparation may have come months or years before on other things the mom wanted the child to do so the child knows if they protest the consequences will be harsh.

What is more relationship building is being with a child to support him in doing as much as he wants and to fill in for him where he can't.

> He also uses a mouthwash so I'm happy that he is doing a good job even though it may not be perfect every time.
>
> We have a simple rule in our house, no teeth cleaning means no food,

That makes it convenient for you. For a someone who can't find another home where the adults will feed him because they love him, it's cruel.

Maybe if your husband wanted the house tidier than you felt was necessary he could withhold access to the household money until you were performing to his standards. That sounds like a good idea, doesn't it? It sounds like a great way to build a loving, trusting partnership doesn't it?

> I have explained the importance and my son knows that he has to clean his teeth,

As I wrote in Sandra's Unschooling Info forum on Facebook to a different issue, but the principles are the same,
**********
One of the bigger relationship errors parents make is assuming that understanding is the same as being able to do. Then when a child does the wrong thing, the assumption is the child is deliberately choosing to be rude. Or lazy. Or defiant. (So the parent reprimands. And shames. And punishes.) Or somehow not understanding something so simple. (So the parent explains. And explains. And explains.)

If your child is being rude or defiant, there's something wrong in the relationship. (Or he's having a really hard time with his feelings.) He's feeling pushed around, not listened to, disconnected. Be more aware of how you're treating him. See his reactions as feedback on how well you're treating him.

If he's being "lazy" then you're expecting too much. He's not being lazy. He can't yet care in the way he needs to. Be what he needs to be. Create a pleasant atmosphere for him to grow in maturity.

If he isn't understanding when your explanation is clear, either he can't yet understand or something is in the way of him acting on his understanding. In either case, stop explaining. Help him notice. Ask him what might be in the way so you can get those things out of his way. Be what he needs to be until he can be it.
**********

> we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually l
> ast more than a few minutes - no breakfast is a strong motivator.

So if a husband wrote to a "Be a better spouse" forum about his wife, "She got really upset in the past over this to the point of sobbing but it doesn't usually last more than a few minutes. No breakfast is a strong motivator," you'd think, "Wow, what a great marriage they must have. I wish I had a husband like that."

Joyce

<plaidpanties666@...>

Toothbrushing is one of the first issues some parents stress over - the first time they realize that they really can't control what their kids will do or learn about the world. That's scary - and it leads some parents to do Insane things, like forced toothbrushing or refusing the child basic needs like food or sleep or parental affection. Things that if you suggested treating another adult that way would be considered cruelty. Those are panic moves - they don't do what parents think/hope they'll do. At best, they "win" and their child loses a bit of bodily integrity while learning something about bullying.


Teeth are way, way too small of an issue for the amount of stress parents can tie to them. 

Relax.

 Unbrushed teeth aren't a disaster. There are lots of other options for oral hygiene, as well as the option of letting this one go, like shoes with no socks. If you brush your own teeth regularly, make it a chance to invite your child to do something with you, make it easy and light and fun, not a chore. If toothbrushing is a chore for you, think about that - you don't Have to brush your teeth. Explore some alternatives like rinses, wipes, tongue scrapers, cleansing foods. Read up on pH and the mineralization-demineralization cycle. Take the opportunity to learn rather than trying to teach and turning into a bully. 




Joyce Fetteroll


On Jan 6, 2014, at 9:56 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

Sometimes people, though, members join with the idea ...

Oops. An edit gone wrong there.

"Sometimes members, though, join with the idea ..."

Joyce

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>no breakfast is a strong motivator<<


While starving people into submission Is a time-honored way to gain compliance, it's worthwhile to consider what's actually being learned - what do people who have been bullied learn about the world? Some learn that it's important to be powerful so that you can be the bully. Some learn that it's important to maximize their helplessness - either as a way to gain a protector or as a way to punish the person who is bullying them. Personally, having experienced "if you don't do X you won't eat" as a child, I learned to be passive aggressive. I learned to comply but make life harder for other people in retribution. 


>>my ASC son has real problems with me giving him direct instructions so I try and be very hands off<<

But you're still heavily invested in the idea that there are things he Has To Learn - that's something that's often even harder for parents of atypical kids because there's the tendency to panic and think they'll Never learn what they need to know unless they're pushed. And by that very assumption, you deny a portion of your child's humanity. 

One of the most fundamental principles of unschooling is that kids are curious about the world. All kids. Kids with cerebral palsy. Kids with autism. Kids with severe anxiety. Kids want to know, want to discover, want to explore and investigate. Sometimes they're bad at it - they're not as capable, have big, big issues in the way of being able to navigate the world, but they're still curious. They want to learn and they do learn. 


One of the other fundamental principles of unschooling is that learning is tied to perception - so all learning always depends on the unique experience of the individual. That's Why teaching isn't learning and can never guarantee learning. Unschooling begins with the premise that you can't control what another person learns. You can force another person to act (sometimes) but in the process you change the context of learning so that it becomes tied up in perceptions of force and the personal and emotional responses to being forced. 


Conventional parenting accepts that force is a necessary part of human relationships - bigger, stronger people force smaller, weaker people to please them, and this is right and good. Arguably, it's natural. But it never guarantees learning - that's where unschooling gets radical, it's not about the ethics of force, but the nature of learning. Force doesn't create learning. 


Learning about the world is a grand endeavor. It's deep and convoluted. There are side shoots and backwaters, trails that go no-where but are still marvelous, connections that seem unimportant but later blossom in spectacular, unexpected ways. How do kids learn about teeth? The same way they learn about religion, or mud, or music, or reading. Something comes up and a connection is made, a trail is followed or disregarded, and life flows on. Along the way there's mythology and chemistry, birthday parties and trips to the grocery store. 


One day my daughter spent four hours watching water flow over a creek bed. She learned about the movement of light on water, the articulation of fish and creepy-crawlies, about the smell of summer and the satisfaction of a day well spent. And she lost a tooth and learned that the darned things are hard to find, dropped on a pebbly shore. And life flowed on. 

Lynn Williams

I was going to put together a response, but as you are now taking my post out of context, using disturbing words like 'starving' when I did not suggest anything like that, and seem far more interested in being aggressive rather than debating I'm not going to bother.

Perhaps you might like to debate delayed gratification in the young child with ASC, I'm not staying for the bun fight.


On 6 January 2014 15:34, <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
 

>>no breakfast is a strong motivator<<


While starving people into submission Is a time-honored way to gain compliance, it's worthwhile to consider what's actually being learned - what do people who have been bullied learn about the world? Some learn that it's important to be powerful so that you can be the bully. Some learn that it's important to maximize their helplessness - either as a way to gain a protector or as a way to punish the person who is bullying them. Personally, having experienced "if you don't do X you won't eat" as a child, I learned to be passive aggressive. I learned to comply but make life harder for other people in retribution. 


>>my ASC son has real problems with me giving him direct instructions so I try and be very hands off<<

But you're still heavily invested in the idea that there are things he Has To Learn - that's something that's often even harder for parents of atypical kids because there's the tendency to panic and think they'll Never learn what they need to know unless they're pushed. And by that very assumption, you deny a portion of your child's humanity. 

One of the most fundamental principles of unschooling is that kids are curious about the world. All kids. Kids with cerebral palsy. Kids with autism. Kids with severe anxiety. Kids want to know, want to discover, want to explore and investigate. Sometimes they're bad at it - they're not as capable, have big, big issues in the way of being able to navigate the world, but they're still curious. They want to learn and they do learn. 


One of the other fundamental principles of unschooling is that learning is tied to perception - so all learning always depends on the unique experience of the individual. That's Why teaching isn't learning and can never guarantee learning. Unschooling begins with the premise that you can't control what another person learns. You can force another person to act (sometimes) but in the process you change the context of learning so that it becomes tied up in perceptions of force and the personal and emotional responses to being forced. 


Conventional parenting accepts that force is a necessary part of human relationships - bigger, stronger people force smaller, weaker people to please them, and this is right and good. Arguably, it's natural. But it never guarantees learning - that's where unschooling gets radical, it's not about the ethics of force, but the nature of learning. Force doesn't create learning. 


Learning about the world is a grand endeavor. It's deep and convoluted. There are side shoots and backwaters, trails that go no-where but are still marvelous, connections that seem unimportant but later blossom in spectacular, unexpected ways. How do kids learn about teeth? The same way they learn about religion, or mud, or music, or reading. Something comes up and a connection is made, a trail is followed or disregarded, and life flows on. Along the way there's mythology and chemistry, birthday parties and trips to the grocery store. 


One day my daughter spent four hours watching water flow over a creek bed. She learned about the movement of light on water, the articulation of fish and creepy-crawlies, about the smell of summer and the satisfaction of a day well spent. And she lost a tooth and learned that the darned things are hard to find, dropped on a pebbly shore. And life flowed on. 


Phil Mann

My seventeen-year-old son offers the following:

From the age of five to fifteen I accompanied my father on trips to the dentist. My father, like many from his generation(he is 72), needed extensive work done and I saw it all, sitting in the treatment room (thanks to our friendly family dentist). This has not only made me a scrupulous tooth brusher but also a much calmer dentist goer.

Phil Mann

Sandra Dodd

-=-I was going to put together a response, but as you are now taking my post out of context-=-

You took the responses out of context.  The only context here is what will help many readers understand unschooling better.  

When someone brings a question or situation, the responses are intended for the larger group's benefit.  

On January 1 a reminder e-mail came out, about posts to this list, didn't it?  

Here's what goes to most new members (subscribing by e-mail bypasses it, so perhaps this was an e-mail-joining situation):
_____________
Unlike most unschooling lists, the Always Learning list digs into the inner workings of parenting practices. List discussion focuses on what helps and hinders learning and relationships. 

Everyone who posts -- whether a question or a reply -- should want to see their ideas analyzed under an unschooling light. 

The list thrives on unschooling questions and discussion! :-) But it's also perfectly okay to sit back and follow the discussion. (All new members are encouraged to do just that for awhile to get a feel for the list.)

Many find the analysis helps them clear out hidden baggage, think more clearly and become the radical unschooling parents they want to be. Some find it uncomfortable.
_____________

Anyone who doesn't want their ideas discussed should not post.
Anyone who posts should expect that their ideas will be discussed.
Anyone who posts and doesn't want their ideas discussed is not paying attention, and it's a waste of time to try to tell us we should NOT be the Always Learning discussion.  

If someone has a child younger than 12, this discussion is older than your child.
If someone has been unschooling a shorter time than 12 years, this discussion is older than your unschooling.

Anyone who doesn't like the discussion should get out of it, not stay and complain about it.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Perhaps you might like to debate delayed gratification in the young child with ASC, I'm not staying for the bun fight.-=-

Should 4000 people look up "ASC" and "bun fight"?  
I'm not looking them up.  I will say something about delayed gratification, though: 

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

It takes time, gradual and increased understanding, effort, desire, attention, change.
We cannot inject unschooling into anyone.
Unschooling is not accomplished by joining an unschooling discussion.

A bit more about this discussion:


Posts for the Always Learning list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:

-helps lots of people understand unschooling
-asks a question that actually needs an answer
-requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
-helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people
on the list)

ALL posts should be

honest
proofread
sincere
clear


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY



 
-=-Perhaps you might like to debate delayed gratification in the young child with ASC, I'm not staying for the bun fight.-=-

Delayed Gratification! An expression that has been used by parents and experts that implies that if your child does not learn to handle frustration or getting what they want NOW  they will be spoiled and grew up to be people who feel entitled or worse.

So parents want to train their kids and teach them to wait or else they feel like they are giving in.

Real life is full of real moments were one has to wait to get what they want, for many reasons out of their control or the control of others.

Kids chose to do things and they know they will have to wait sometimes.

I don;t have a never ending budget to give my children all they want at any time but I sure do my best to do it and to work towards it.
So my kids have to wait.
It is too cold to go skiing today. So we have to wait until it is warmer.

That is life. No need to create teaching moments or training my kids by "delayed gratification'.
No matter what label you use to describe your child.

Keeping a hungry child from food unless they brush their teeth  is not a nice, loving or mindful way to deal with ANY child or any human being.
Not even dog trainers do that. Withholding food for compliance is a huge no no when training animals why would it be
OK when helping a child learn about anything??


Alex Polikowsky


Joyce Fetteroll


On Jan 6, 2014, at 10:34 AM, <plaidpanties666@...> <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

While starving people into submission Is a time-honored way to gain compliance

Of course to the parents putting conventional parenting ideas into practice, it doesn't look at all like that. It looks like common, routine practices that lots of parents do.

It's not until someone has backed far away from conventional parenting that they can understand what it feels like on the receiving end. From the child's perspective it feels like being forced, controlled and manipulated.

Because "everyone" does it, parents unfortunately end up doing things to their kids that they'd *never* ever do to an adult whose relationship they cared about.

Unfortunately parents learn to not take their kids' emotions seriously. Kids might get furious but they don't, well, *leave* as a friend would. Parents learn to wait out the emotional storm. They *assume* that since the kids "recover" that the upsetness wasn't as bad as the child made it seem.

But what choice do kids have? What is seen as recovery is really dependence. Kids have to at least act like they've moved on if they're to get the love and care they're still dependent on.

"With great power comes great responsibility." Parents have a huge amount of power over their kids. If parents abuse it by thinking it's okay to withhold food from *anyone* of any age until they do what the parent wants them to, they're going to have problems when their kids are teens. Once kids feel they have their own power, they'll respond in the ways they've been treated.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=-We have a simple rule in our house, no teeth cleaning means no food, I have explained the importance and my son knows that he has to clean his teeth, we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes - no breakfast is a strong motivator.-=-


Maslow's hierarchy of needs says that in order to learn, children need to feel safe and not be hungry.
Withholding food is not a way to teach a human.  It is used to train dogs, but it's not even the best way to train a dog.


-=-we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes-=-

You had a tantrum, or he did?
Be careful with "we."  


Sandra

K Pennell


I did have two boys who HATED any minty toothpaste. They said it was "too spicy". We found a fruit flavored toothpaste from Tom's of Maine. Well worth the extra money so they were comfortable and happy to brush. Perhaps the reason the OP's child doesn't want to brush is something really simple like that?





On Monday, January 6, 2014 4:02 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:


-=-We have a simple rule in our house, no teeth cleaning means no food, I have explained the importance and my son knows that he has to clean his teeth, we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes - no breakfast is a strong motivator.-=-


Maslow's hierarchy of needs says that in order to learn, children need to feel safe and not be hungry.
Withholding food is not a way to teach a human.  It is used to train dogs, but it's not even the best way to train a dog.


-=-we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes-=-

You had a tantrum, or he did?
Be careful with "we."  


Sandra




<plaidpanties666@...>

>>debate delayed gratification in the young child with ASC<<


Step back from the idea of "delayed gratification" and think about what you mean by it. Most of the time what's meant is that a child should be serenely patient in the face of stress, something many adults can't do with any kind of consistency. It's a good example of adults holding children to a higher standard than they hold themselves. Kids with disabilities are often held to an even higher standard in that regard.


When kids are given lots of support, when their world is "a soft meadow of yesses" (Sandra's phrase, and I love it) they have more internal resources to deal with stress. That's not a guess, it's the common experience of unschooling parents, especially those of us with more intense children. Helping kids promptly in the ways they want to be helped (immediate help, not "you'll thank me when you're older") actually sets them up to learn about grace and thoughtfulness, patience and care because they're not in the position of feeling like they need to clamor to get what they need. 


When support is denied to teach some lesson or other, what is actually learned will have more to do with the child's perception than the parent's goals. So "delayed gratification" for some people means simmering in wait for the moment to strike back. For others it means giving up. For others it means turning around and taking something from someone else. For still others it means a sense that life is full of duty after chore after obligation. For some it means resentment.


For kids with disabilities, "delayed gratification" and related lessons can result in enormous resentment. Brie mentioned that in another thread recently, she said 

<<In raising children with chronic illnesses, resentment is responsible for the worst possible outcomes - for non-compliance, for lying and sneaking and pretending that one doesn't have X condition and doesn't need to do Y to survive, which sadly leads to detrimental, sometimes deadly choices.>>


 The point isn't to scare anyone, it's that learning is a Personal experience. What a person learns depends on how that person Feels about what's going on. 


>>child with ASC<<


 Atypical kids still have feelings. That's important because, just like other people, what they learn from any attempt at teaching will depend heavily on how they feel about it. 


---Meredith

j_me_russell

I can't find mention of how old your child is, so this may not be useful, but I recently had an opportunity to sort through tons of my own big feelings around tooth brushing with my daughter. She is 1.5, and the first of my three kids to want nothing to do with me brushing her teeth.

She was born with a severe tongue tie and was unable to nurse well (and couldn't take any bottles at all) and had two minor (but very traumatic) surgeries by the time she was six weeks old. She subsequently developed an oral aversion that made the early months scary for me (she would become resistant to anything near her mouth and refuse to eat), and taught me more about patience than I had realized possible. From early infancy, she would completely resist anyone coming near her mouth unless they asked first and were given "permission" (for example, a doctor wanting to look in her mouth. I would ask, if she resisted I would not let the doctor try). This was instrumental in allowing her to relax and trust again (and eventually to be able to eat solids without gagging and choking).

She got teeth quite early, and I attempted to clean her teeth as I had her brothers (with a finger brush) but she vehemently refused, and I didn't push. Once she showed interest in her brothers brushing their teeth (around 10 months) we got her her own toothbrush, and she began imitating them. I would ask every couple of weeks or so I I could help her (my sons still ask me to "finish" their brushing for them), and she almost always said no.

About a month ago, I allowed my fears to gain too much hold in my mind, and decided I needed to try to push harder to help her clean her teeth. After several days of asking and her refusing, I made a horrible mistake and tried to brush her teeth anyway. I went against my instinct, and I will regret it forever. She looked in my eyes and began to cry. I stopped immediately, but the damage was done. She cried hard in my arms, pointing at her mouth and the toothbrush, shaking her head no. I cried with her, told her I was so sorry, that it was wrong and that I shouldn't have done it. After she calmed down and nursed, we played a game that my kids have all loved that has served as a strong counter to feelings of powerlessness: I get down on the floor and let her knock me over, again and again, exclaiming wildly while she jumped, bounced and climbed all over me while I was on the ground. I made an effort to play this game with her whenever she asked over the next week, and I did not ask to brush her teeth again. She continued to ask for her toothbrush (she loves the toothpaste!) when her brothers were brushing her teeth, and I began to sing more silly songs when helping her brothers with their teeth, which she always laughed at.

After about a week, it occurred to me that it might be very helpful for her to see me brushing my teeth more (instead of after she went to bed, which was the usual), so I got out my toothbrush and brushed with the boys. I sat down with her and asked if she could help me, and she loved it! It really reminded me how vulnerable it feels to have someone else sticking something in my mouth; it was hard to relax! She kept handing the brush back to me, watching how I brushed, and taking it back to do it again. When we were done, I thanked her, and told her that I appreciate her helping me keep my teeth clean and healthy. We did this for several more days, and one night she handed me her toothbrush and opened her mouth! I gently brushed two teeth, singing a song, and she took it back and smiled, brushing herself. Every time since then, she has asked for my "help" brushing, sometimes wanting me to brush all of her teeth, sometimes not, and it feels just right. Sometimes she goes around the whole house, asking brothers, dad, auntie and Grampa to take turns brushing. I know that my attitude around the brushing has shifted so much, and there is not way that I would have felt safe with someone putting something in my mouth if they held as much anxiety about it as I had been.

j_me_russell

(Apologies, I misspoke in my earlier message; I played the game with my daughter whenever she asked, and tried to bring it up to play with her at least daily)

<kgharriman1@...>

Reluctance to clean teeth here is only recent. Last night I asked if it ok to download a couple of cool apps on new iPod that had some fun stuff about why its good to clean teeth. This idea was received well and was enjoyed and along with some new toothpaste chosen and decision to have own brush with own cup (we have four children and tiny bathroom so mostly it's a shared cup) there had been renewed enthusiasm towards cleaning teeth. DD1is 8.

Phoebe Wyllyamz

Both of my children 9yo and 5yo have had what the dentists call significant dental carries in their primary teeth.

The dentists will tell you it is the food they are eating and that you arent brushing "x" amount of times in a day.

I have met people who hardly brush and have a diet rich in high carb, sugary foods who hardly get cavities. I however was prone to cavities as a youngester and enjoyed many sweets and brushed when I remembered to brush. I can unfortunately remember my moms voice yelling that my toothbrush was dry therefore I hadn't brushed my teeth and I had better do it.

This is the voice of childhood I want to avoid for my kids.

I ended up being a dental assistant for many years before being mom. My mom would have been surprised I am sure with all the upset and worry she had with me not brushing. (She passed away when I was 13).

What I have found to be useful is to be consistent with my own habits. I like to brush or chew peelu gum in the morning and brush and floss at night. My 9yo brushes at night. My 5yo likes to chew the gum in the day and brush at night.

When there are new toothbrushes in the house I notice they brush like crazy. I recently purchased new flossers and my 5yo LOVES them. Anything she can do herself is a plus.

Keep it exciting. Toothpaste, brushes, floss, mouthwash, gum,  for a bit I got baby tooth wipes and kept them in the bathroom and car. We also made our own baking soda toothpaste that my 9yo liked. Lots to explore in our mouths you can usually find little mouth mirrors at the grocery store too.

Sandra's quote "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" is so right on.

Cheers on your journey,
Phoebe

Vicki Dennis

I remember reading about a child who thought he disliked orange juice.   Turns out that he had changed his routine to brush before breakfast and the lingering toothpaste made the OJ taste bad TO HIM.   Once he changed back to brushing after breakfast (better for dental hygiene anyway) he was back to enjoying the fresh juice.

When to take vitamins has been another topic over the years.   A mother who had difficulty in the morning rush remembering the daily vitamin started making it part of the bedtime routine.  Only problem was that it caused minor stomach upset that interfered with the child's sleep.  With daytime activities, it was not noticeable.  

Do you withhold food until teeth or brushed because you want to use the food as a "motivator" or have you decided that the "proper" order is brush first, then eat?   Did you consult a dentist about that decision?

vicki




On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:41 PM, K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:
 


I did have two boys who HATED any minty toothpaste. They said it was "too spicy". We found a fruit flavored toothpaste from Tom's of Maine. Well worth the extra money so they were comfortable and happy to brush. Perhaps the reason the OP's child doesn't want to brush is something really simple like that?






On Monday, January 6, 2014 4:02 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:


-=-We have a simple rule in our house, no teeth cleaning means no food, I have explained the importance and my son knows that he has to clean his teeth, we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes - no breakfast is a strong motivator.-=-


Maslow's hierarchy of needs says that in order to learn, children need to feel safe and not be hungry.
Withholding food is not a way to teach a human.  It is used to train dogs, but it's not even the best way to train a dog.


-=-we have had tantrums in the past over this but it does not usually last more than a few minutes-=-

You had a tantrum, or he did?
Be careful with "we."  


Sandra





Virginia Warren

I think there are many reasons why people have problems with their teeth. Brushing and flossing doesn't always bring good dental outcomes. Not brushing and flossing doesn't always bring bad dental outcomes.

My kids brush their teeth when they want to, which is not as often as I brush mine. They love going to the dentist, and the dentist always says their teeth look great. We have a friend we've know since she was18 months old, on whom tooth brushing is rigidly enforced. When she was little, one parent used to hold her down while the other brushed her teeth. At 8, she just got her 5th and 6th crowns installed.

I remember being annoyed by my father nagging me to brush, going in the bathroom, wetting my toothbrush, running the tap for a plausible duration, and avoiding him afterward.

Not brushing and flossing may or may not be harmful. I think being forced to brush and floss is definitely harmful.

I think when we tell our children something just awful is going to happen if they do/don't something, and the predicted disaster fails to materialize, we lose a lot of credibility.

Virginia

haydee deldenovese

I think it would be fun to explain to the child about the mouth germs. What happens when we leave them there, and what happens when we brush. Get a hold of the Colgate tablets that turn red or blue when there is still a bit of dirt in the mouth or teeth. It could be fun for the child to see if he/she can win the fight against the germs in the mouth. Make up a story each time, on how there are some meanies that are trying to attack the kingdom  inside the mouth. The teeth being the horses that the germs want to take over, and the toothbrush is the strongest knight, trying to push them away as the child is brushing, I mean there can be so many stories created, as the child is brushing, and going back to see if there is still any red or blue meanies left that need to be taken cared of.
Making it fun and exciting for the child, works pretty much all the time. Children are creative by nature, it is the adults that sometimes find it troublesome,  but ask them for some ideas, and create together...
Sometimes my kids will ask if it's okay for them to go to bed without brushing, and since I have explained to them about refined sugars and what they can do to our teeth, they will choose to skip their dessert if they don't feel like brushing that night. There have been times when they don't really want to brush but they really want their sweet,  so all they do is gargle with listerine, I tnk explaining to them goes a looooong way. They know how to make the right choice for themselves.

H.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Sometimes my kids will ask if it's okay for them to go to bed without brushing, and since I have explained to them about refined sugars and what they can do to our teeth, they will choose to skip their dessert if they don't feel like brushing that night.-=-

So it's the same, on the other end of the day, as someone saying a child can't have breakfast if he doesn't brush his teeth first.

-=- They know how to make the right choice for themselves.-=-

Within a very narrow set of options you've created based on dentistry that might be very wrong.

-=-and the toothbrush is the strongest knight,-=-

Toothbrushes are probably dirtier than the dirtiest of teeth.  People who wouldn't use a fork twice without sterilzing it, or drink out of a cup that hadn't been washed, will use the same toothbrush with a slight rinse, sitting out in the open, having been in their mouths, for months.  Sometimes years.

The toothbrush might be worse for their teeth than sugar.

-=- since I have explained to them about refined sugars and what they can do to our teeth...-=-

"Refined sugars"?  Natural sugars in citrus won't hurt?  Bread and crackers might have zero "refined sugar."  Pasta.  Rice.  But starches combined with saliva produce sugar.

Passing on things that aren't legitimate is a good way to make children *think* the mom has knowledge and that the children have great power over their bodies, but if it's not true, it's detrimental to whether they'll believe the mom later about bigger things with more immediate dangers.

I think all moms should lighten up about what they think they *know* about dental health. At least read more and be more open to dentistry's everchanging beliefs and recommendations over the years.  

Sandra


Jo Isaac

Viginia said ==My kids brush their teeth when they want to, which is not as often as I brush mine. They love going to the dentist, and the dentist always says their teeth look great.==

This is our experience also. My son is 7.5. he doesn't mind having his teeth brushed at all (I do it for him, in bed usually, with kids pineapple flavour toothpaste), but we often forget, or he falls asleep before we do it - a variety of reasons mean it often doesn't get done daily.

He recently went for his first ever dental appointment and the dentist positively raved about how good his teeth were! She wanted to parade him around in front of the waiting room as a poster boy for good dental hygiene!  Clearly he has a genetic propensity to good teeth, since our dental hygiene regime is pretty sketchy and he eats whatever he likes (which does include candy and chocolate, as well as 'good teeth' foods like cheese, apples, etc).

His Dad has great teeth and hardly any cavities, and I don't have terrible teeth, despite eating large amounts of chocolate as a kid and not brushing much at all until I was a teenager (just FYI - now I am fastidious about my tooth hygiene!)

Don't think of tooth brushing as the be-all of tooth hygiene. If you are genetically prone to dental problems like cavities, then brushing and flossing *may* help  to some degree, but they won't stop them altogether. Read the page recommended at Joyce's site, especially what Schuyler has to say a little way down the page about mouth bacteria :)

Jo




<alohabun@...>

Our younger kids and I have a few different toothbrushes and toothpaste flavors to choose from. I think they especially like having choices of what brush to use and what flavor they feel like tasting. They all have liked trying those spinning electric toothbrushes at times.  


If someone doesn't like a minty flavor, Calendula toothpaste (not the gel, the paste) by Weleda has a licorice flavor and might be a different paste to try. 


Though brushing and flossing don't guarantee a person won't get cavities, they do make my mouth feel fresher and cleaner.  Sticking a toothbrush in hydrogen peroxide overnight or changing toothbrushes can help with germs, especially if someone is sick.  


My 8 year old daughter eats much of the same food as her brothers, but they have had cavities and she has not.  My daughter Katie (16) had cavities when she was young even though she brushed.  She still brushes her teeth now, but hasn't had cavities in years.  


Here's an entertaining video about teeth (My Shiny Teeth and Me) from Fairly Odd Parents.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YU9A6GwPEs


Laurie 

Joyce Fetteroll


On Jan 9, 2014, at 4:29 AM, alohabun@... wrote:

Sticking a toothbrush in hydrogen peroxide overnight or changing
toothbrushes can help with germs, especially if someone is sick.

If someone uses *someone else's* toothbrush the germs might make them sick. But if you're putting your own germs back in your mouth, they're germs your body is already handling.

And most germs that go in the mouth will get digested. (Some bacteria will survive the stomach. But cold viruses will be broken down.)

Where you're more likely to pick up someone else's germs is by breathing them in or touching them with your hands and then touching your nose. Your nose is may more vulnerable than your mouth. So really it's the handle and the body of the toothpaste tube where germs might spread from one person to another, not the bristles.

I had a niece and nephew visit who were horribly sick with a colds. (They were visiting from far away so I couldn't tell them to go home! ;-) But they were on the couch and touching everything. So I was well motivated to find out how long cold germs can live outside the body. I'm not remembering the exact figures but I do remember that cold and flu viruses could exist longest on a smooth surface like a counter or glass but not more than and hour or two and it would it would need extraordinary conditions to last 24.

Joyce

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>I think it would be fun to explain to the child about the mouth germs. What happens when we leave them there, and what happens when we brush. Get a hold of the Colgate tablets that turn red or blue when there is still a bit of dirt in the mouth or teeth.<<


When Mo was little we got some pH strips that were specifically for saliva - that was fun, seeing how the colors were different right after eating and how quickly they went back to the normal color. It was valuable for me to read about pH and the remineralization cycle and also to realize that for the most part my kid's mouth was pretty "clean" - her teeth weren't rotting away in her head if she didn't brush after every meal. 


Those sorts of things can be fun for kids... but they're Fleetingly fun and interesting. It's parents who want to linger there, and belabor the issue, but that doesn't help kids learn anything valuable. 


At some point, kids get interested in their bodies, in why they grow, what things are made of, what things look like on the inside. Those are all times to mention teeth. And when they start getting loose and coming out, too.


>>Make up a story each time, on how there are some meanies that are trying to attack the kingdom  inside the mouth.<<

If you have a kid who likes to make up those kinds of stories, that's one thing, but other than that it's going way too far. It's a parent being stuck on something that doesn't need nearly so much time and attention. It's enough to say "I'm going to go brush my teeth - anyone else?" Or a quick reminder "teeth!" and then let it go - it's not a disaster if teeth aren't brushed perfectly every day. 

And for some kids, the idea that there are evil monsters in their mouths eating their teeth is pretty scary. It's not something that would have been appropriate for either of my kids. 

---Meredith